BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

For Spike, that's like third base.

Dec 04 2007 08:04 am   #1Scarlet Ibis

"I punched him a few times.  For Spike, that's like third base."

This may come out sounding all kinds of wonky, cause I'm tired and should be sleeping but...

I was pondering about that sentence.  Buffy spends the better part of s5 pre "Crush" punching, slapping and kicking Spike around.  Could it be it was more of a second base for her?  If she truly believed that, why would she hit him so often (pre-declaration of love, of course, and post kissing)?  Furthermore, does it partially explain part of her behavior in s6?  For if she truly did think that, then maybe that's another (dumb) reason on a long list why she felt it was okay to hit and use him in s6, because she thought he actually liked it deep down?

Just a-wonderin' :P

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 04 2007 09:36 am   #2Guest
Sounds like a good analysis. I don't think it's too far off to assume that Spike was into S&M and that Buffy possibly used this knowledge to justify her actions. He must have enjoyed cold comfort, at least on some level, or he would not have endured the punishment that she gave him. It's just not normal. Some people might branch off here and assert all the beauty that is Buffy (ala "Touched") but we must think from the very warped perspective of Buffy herself, who was seemingly dumped a handful of times (Angel, Riley, Parker) for no apparent reason and left to assume that she was the root of the problem. To copy the name of a season six episode, she was "wrecked," and this is only after considering her viewpoints on relationships. Toss all the other gritty circumstances into the mix and you have the expository of season six. That's one reason why I like the season so much, it's like a culmination of everything that has happened, the show's true zenith.

Buffy reiterates her sardonic comment in "Crush" by saying that Spike is "in love with pain" in a season six episode. (Forgot which one.)

I kinda prefer cold comfort personally. That's just me, though. Definitely not normal.
Dec 04 2007 10:01 am   #3Guest

She did get some pleasure from violence. And most humans can and do take pleasure in a little destruction, but not to the level the fighters on the show had. If Buffy didn't enjoy the fight, she wouldn't have toyed with her prey so often. You can say that she prolonged fights just to not be bored, but if she'd done swift patrols, over and done and right back home, she would have had a lot more time for that normal life she always said was so important. If you hate a job, you do what it takes to get it done as quickly as possible, right?

The lady protested too much. Being in a fight gets your adrenaline up, but *winning* a fight turned her on. Spike was the same way, except that he never denied liking violence or the affect it had on him. Inevitably, Buffy went from appreciating a good dust-up to liking the power she held over her prey. Except that she wouldn't admit it.

CM

Dec 04 2007 11:02 am   #4Guest

I actually agree Buffy did hit Spike a lot before she either kissed him or after he said he loved her. Although Spike only hit her when he was extremely mad but she hit him all of the time so maybe it is true because he said he loved her about as much as she hit him. Buffy's behaviour during season six is really violent so I'm going to say she loved him violently but didn't want to admit it to herself or to anyone around her. There is also a part in season three where she says "I violently dislike you" maybe she means I like you. yes think about that one.

Dec 04 2007 01:08 pm   #5SpikeHot

I think she hits Spike because she's either in a bad mood, or because Spike is annoying her, he doesn't usually give her the information she wants without making some irritating comments, and most of the times she goes to ask him for information, she'd be in a hurry or has no time for Spike's remarks.

Dec 04 2007 01:25 pm   #6Guest

Sometimes she hits him after he's given her info. I just think she's just abusive.

Being a vamp and the family he's from, I'm sure violence is usual for him. He probably doesn't see why it's wrong for her to use him. Not until he got the soul did he come to that realisation.

 

And I think she does like violence. In season 7 she's in the background repeatedly hitting a vamp when she could have just staked him.

Dec 04 2007 01:37 pm   #7SpikesKatMac

I think by S6, Buffy is so screwed up, between her crappy relationship-past and being resurrected, being the Slayer and a mom, and dealing with her everyday life, that she can no longer express her feelings in a healthy, productive way, and that's why she's always wailing on Spike.  If you think about it, up to the end of S6, Buffy was, for the most part, unable to express love and friendship in an honest, caring way.  She ignored Dawn, and she'd killed herself for her sister.  She avoided her friends, lied to them...  I think the only way Buffy was able to express her feelings, her rage, her pain, and yes, her love, was through violence, a Slayer's natural medium.  But the only person in her life who could take the violence, and thus handle her feelings, was Spike.  Which was why poor Spike was always getting the shit kicked out of him.  I do think Buffy loved him; she just wasn't able to articulate her feelings anymore, hence the use of her fists all the time.

In regards to whether for Spike getting smacked around was second base?  Well, some people like a little rough and tumble mixed in with their slap and tickle, and in most mythologies, including Buffy, vampires are notorious for enjoying violence with their love making, but I don't think the serious beatings (both the physical and the emotional) that were happening in S6 were not about foreplay; they were about control.  To me, I always thought Buffy's manhandling of Spike (and I don't mean just S6, I'm including from the chip right up to the end of S7) were like a teenage girl and their weight.  You can't control anything in your life except what goes in your mouth, so you become anorexic.  Buffy couldn't control anything going on in her life, including being alive, but she could control Spike, either through emotional manipulation, or through kicking the crap out of him.  Maybe early in the show, a punch in the nose for Spike was like foreplay, but by S6, it was just abuse.

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 04 2007 07:47 pm   #8Eowyn315

I don't think hitting Spike was second base to Buffy, at least not early on. It's not foreplay, it's how she takes out her anger and frustration. She does it numerous times with her prey, but she hits Spike in particular because it's easy. She doesn't have to worry about the pesky morality of beating people up, because Spike's not "people," he's a vampire, and unlike most of the vampires she faces, Spike can't hit back. And he's always around - even deliberately putting himself in her path most of the time - so he's a convenient target.

I think when she says that line in Crush, it never occurs to her that the reason she punches Spike so much might be because it's like foreplay to her. Honestly, does she really know enough about Spike to say that HE thinks of it as second base? Or is she just generalizing about vampires being violent and liking some pain with their sex? I don't remember Spike ever being violent to Drusilla, or even Harmony, in front of Buffy, and the one time they were a couple (in Something Blue) there was no punching going on. So, I'm not entirely sure where she's getting that idea at this point, except that he's a vampire and therefore must like violence in everything.

Season six, on the other hand, I definitely think she believes he likes it (and maybe he does - he certainly never complains when she's rough with him), and that's part of her excuse for treating him the way she does. But as other posters have brought up, there are far more issues involved in their season six relationship than just Buffy feeding Spike's pain/violence kink, or her own.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2007 02:45 am   #9Spikez_tart

Actually the quote is:

BUFFY: (ponders) Well, I ... I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base.

So Buffy is saying that for Spike, getting beat up by her is the equivalent of getting his hands in her pants.  One wonders how she leaped to that metaphor.  And, we see from Spike's fantasy of fighting Buffy (while he's boinking Harmony) that it's true.

 

 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 05 2007 02:50 am   #10Guest

Third base!?!?!?

That explains the blowjobs in season six!

Dec 05 2007 03:18 am   #11goldenusagi

I don't remember Spike ever being violent to Drusilla, or even Harmony

He wasn't sexually violent with Harmony (course, we probably wouldn't have seen it if he was), but he did push her around a lot, for someone who was basically his girlfriend.  And he was always very loving to Dru.  Spike was into bondage sex, though.  We see him tease Buffy with the handcuffs, and in The Harsh Light of Day:

Spike : I've got an extra set of chains.
Harmony : Just because Dorkus went in for that--
Spike : Drusilla. Say her name.

So it seems he and Dru went in for that, and he tries to get Harm and Buffy to play along later.

Dec 05 2007 03:31 am   #12Eowyn315

Goldenusagi, I didn't mean that Spike wasn't into it. What I said was that Buffy couldn't have known that when she said it. She wasn't present for anything that suggested Spike was into it, even if we as the viewers were.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2007 04:27 am   #13goldenusagi

Ah, true.  Though she was present for the Lover's Walk "Be the man she loved.  I'll find Dru wherever she is, tie her up, torture her, till she likes me again."

Dec 05 2007 04:46 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

Being tied up doesn't equate to being beaten up.  Handcuffs and/or chains is more of an issue of trust.  He didn't say "Hey, tie me up and beat me."  All they pretty much did was have one wear the handcuffs during sex, and took turns doing that.  Giles and Joyce used handcuffs too, and no blows were traded.  In fact, the only bruises Buffy sports after the handcuff incident are that of the cuffs being on her wrists--nothing more.

And season six leads me to believe that perhaps Buffy was working under the assumption that Spike equated violence and sex, but I don't see that as being true.  The violence was brought into the equation through Buffy.  And yeah, Spike did fantasize about sparring with Buffy while having sex, but of course it does.  Fighting, especially a slayer, and furthermore, Buffy, makes him horny.  But Spike's a romantic as well as monogamous, and I didn't see anything that suggested that he enjoyed violence with sex.  Anytime we see him leading the sexual dance, it's usually slow, whereas with Buffy, it's not.

(added)  In FFL, there's nothing that suggests he really tied her up and tortured anyone.  I think that part was just all talk in LW.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 05 2007 04:56 am   #15Scarlet Ibis

BUFFY: (ponders) Well, I ... I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base.

So Buffy is saying that for Spike, getting beat up by her is the equivalent of getting his hands in her pants.

Exactly.  So then why did she spend the better part s5 beating him up if she really thought that?  That's what I wanna know... *pouts*

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 05 2007 06:31 am   #16Eowyn315
In FFL, there's nothing that suggests he really tied her up and tortured anyone.  I think that part was just all talk in LW.

Yeah... I always felt that when he said, "Be the man I was," he didn't really mean it. What he means is, "Be like Angelus." He's the one who seemed to like torture and pain - and Dru obviously responds to it. We've never seen Spike equate torture with love other than this statement, nor is there any indication that he'd physically harm Dru for fun. (And I agree, handcuffs are different than beating someone up.) So, he may have thought that was the way to win Dru back this time, but I don't think he really did it (if he did, he might have succeeded).

So then why did she spend the better part s5 beating him up if she really thought that?

I don't think she really thought that. I think it's one of those off-the-cuff remarks that's getting way too much meaning read into it. Honestly, I think the line is there mostly for the joke. The most it's meant to imply is that, since Spike's a vampire, Buffy realizes that he probably gets off on violence.

If it really bothers you, Scarlet, think about this - maybe she didn't realize it until she said it. Buffy doesn't really beat Spike up much *after* Crush, so maybe she stopped hitting him when she realized it might be encouraging him. (Of course, in season six, she starts up again, but that's a whole different story.)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2007 07:03 am   #17Scarlet Ibis

I can accept that, E.  Besides, there's just troll logic all over that episode--revoking his invite cause he said "I love you" is quite strange, considering there were actual logical reasons previous to that ("Out of my Mind") to do so, and she didn't.  I think I just craved something to discuss/debate :P 

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 05 2007 05:20 pm   #18SpikeHot

 I don't remember Spike ever being violent to Drusilla, or even Harmony

Seriously? Harmony? Spike was completely abusive toward her. He didn't like her, and was obviously annoyed  by her, but the way he treated her made cringe. It was a side of Spike that I didn't like at all.

The difference I think between Harmony and the other women was probably because Spike was in love with them, which was why he treated them with respect, but he didn't love Harmony which was why he treated her like trash.

Dec 05 2007 07:01 pm   #19Eowyn315
Seriously? Harmony? Spike was completely abusive toward her.

*sigh* Why do you people keep cutting off the end of my quote? In front of Buffy. He wasn't violent to her in front of Buffy. The viewers saw a lot more of Spike and Harmony's relationship than Buffy did.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 05 2007 07:39 pm   #20SpikesKatMac

You're right, E.  I think the only time Buffy even saw Spike and Harmony together were when she first ran into them, before Spike got the gem; during the "operation" to have the chip removed; and when Spike had Buffy chained up in the crypt.  Not exactly great times to observe vampire relationship dynamics.  During those times, I think Spike was more exasperated with Harmony then out and out abusive.

And I never really saw his attitude towards Harmony as abusive, anyway.  More intolerant than anything.   I'm sorry, but if I to spend daylight hours locked in a crypt with that airhead and her unicorns, I would have treated Harmony worse than Spike did!   

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 05 2007 08:24 pm   #21FetchingMadScientist

Harmony knew that Spike didn't love her. He even tells her so, in "Harsh Light of Day," he says, "I love syphilus (sp) more than you." She knew what she was to Spike, and she chose to ignore that.  

That is part of the reason, the conversation that they had in "Harm's Way" on AtS was so important.  Spike, I think, began to realize that he was to Buffy what Harmony was to him.

That's how I see it, anyway.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Dec 05 2007 08:34 pm   #22Guest

I don’t think Spike was all that nice to Harm at times but I dont think he was abusive. he didn’t go punching her for no reason.

Not sure why Buffy thought punching Spike was like 3rd base, maybe he didn’t complain but he didn’t seem to like being hit. bdsm and rough sex is hugely different from a broken nose just because someone else feels like hitting you. Which is just one of the reasons I find it very difficult to like Buffy, hitting someone who can't hit back (vampire or not) is just plain wrong.

Dec 05 2007 08:55 pm   #23Unbridled_Brunette

I don't think Spike was physically abusive to Harmony, but he was certainly verbally abusive to her. A lot. Most of it seemed to roll off her back, but it was still wrong of him to do it.

To me, the "third base" line seemed like a typical throwaway insult by Buffy. But I guess she could have been thinking back to "Fool for Love," when Spike openly admitted being turned on while he killed his slayers. She might have assumed that it went both ways -- that he enjoyed receiving punishment as well as doling it out.

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Dec 05 2007 11:52 pm   #24Scarlet Ibis

Actually, I think it was the thrill of the fight (with the slayers) that got Spike hot, not being hit by them. 

As for Harmony, he may have been verbally abusive, but he wasn't physical.  The only time he ever puts his hands on her in a violent way is in "Crush," and not before or after that again.  Harmony knew she was the rebound girl, and that he was getting all of his frustrations from being dumped by Drusilla out on her.  But she put up with it cause she was in love with him.  At any rate, they did get along at times, and I think Harmony knew him better than most.  Spike was annoyed with her most of the time, but she most definitely knew his sensitive side.  He wasn't always a bastard to her.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 06 2007 12:08 am   #25Unbridled_Brunette

Actually, I think it was the thrill of the fight (with the slayers) that got Spike hot, not being hit by them. 

But I'm not saying that Spike actually enjoyed being hit; my point is that that maybe his comments in FFL made Buffy think he did. Personally, I think the line meant nothing at all. But if one were searching for an explanation ... that's mine. ;)

 

As for Harmony, he may have been verbally abusive, but he wasn't physical.  The only time he ever puts his hands on her in a violent way is in "Crush," and not before or after that again.  Harmony knew she was the rebound girl, and that he was getting all of his frustrations from being dumped by Drusilla out on her.  But she put up with it cause she was in love with him.  At any rate, they did get along at times, and I think Harmony knew him better than most.  Spike was annoyed with her most of the time, but she most definitely knew his sensitive side.  He wasn't always a bastard to her.

I agree with you. I never saw that he was physically abusive to her (other than "Harsh Light of Day," when he staked her, and "Crush," when he threw her against the crypt wall). But verbal abuse isn't okay whether she was willing to put up with it or not. People tend to put up with a lot of unhealthy things from people they love.

Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Dec 06 2007 12:27 am   #26SpikesKatMac

 But verbal abuse isn't okay whether she was willing to put up with it or not. People tend to put up with a lot of unhealthy things from people they love.

Oh, absolutely, the stuff Harmony put up with wasn't healthy; and she probably didn't deserve it, no matter how annoying she was (I apologize, but my tolerance for annoying people is at an all time low right now, so I have absolutely no sympathy for Harm; I blame my coworker  :-D )  But one thing to keep in mind is at the point in his life where Spike is with Harmony, he's made absolutely no effort to change his behavior.  He's evil, and proud of it!  And I would assume that being verbally abusive and emotionally cruel to your girlfriend when she's being an annoying bint is probably ok if you're evil.   I can think of an occasion or two where Spike was particularly scathing to Drusilla, and he adored her! 

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 06 2007 03:37 am   #27Scarlet Ibis

<--never said the verbal abuse was cool, regardless of who it was to ;)

I dunno--I can at least appreciate that he didn't pretend to be anyone else other than who he was--with Harmony or anyone.  I personally feel though that he may have resented the fact that she was able to...drag so much out of him.  Harmony makes it clear in "Crush" just how sensitive her sweet, boo boo is.  And it is that that leads me to believe that he was tender with her at times, which probably helped her put up with him more than she should have (I mean, in addition to being head over heels for him). 

And, I don't recall him being scathing to Dru...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 06 2007 03:53 am   #28SpikesKatMac

Well, maybe scathing is the wrong word, but he was definitely short with her a time or two.  Remember the whole scene with the bird, when he found out she'd been out without him and had run into Angel?  He yells at her in frustration, because he wants to know about her meeting with Angel, and she's just nattering on to the dead bird, and so he says "It's dead, Dru.  You put it in a cage, and you didn't feed it, and now it's all dead, just like the last one."  Or something to that effect.  But to give Dru her chops, she knew how to play Spike like nobody else (I suppose 100 years together would come in handy for that!  LOL)  She just gives him the old pouty lip, and he's like putty in her hands. 

I agree with you that Harmony probably saw a lot more of Spike's sensitive side then is ever shown in the show; she probably wouldn't have put up with Spike's treatment of her for as long as she did, and taken him back so often, if she wasn't seeing something that she thought was worth hanging on for.  If they had stayed together, Harmony would probably have learned the ways to manipulate Spike, like Dru did.  Dru could make Spike sit up and bark, and like it.  Harmony just lacked that subtle touch.   And although no one wants to hear it, Spike probably didn't mind Harmony all that much either.  After all, he could have killed her at any time; it's not like Harm had wicked fighting skills.  The only time he made any effort to kill her was when he was pretty sure she was indestructible.  If he hadn't realized he was in love with Buffy, they probably would have stayed together a lot longer than they did in the show.  

And they sort of made a cute couple (ducks rotten tomatoes from other members...)

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 06 2007 05:22 am   #29pfeifferpack

In the episode Potential (S7) when Buffy is counseling the girl we later learn is Amanda the following conversation (thanks to Buffy World for quote):

AMANDA
One of the boys who picks on me, I kind of—See, if a guy picks on you, is it weird to think he's cute?

BUFFY
(grins uncomfortably, leans back in her chair) Oh.. (sighs)

AMANDA
It's just, the last few times I've seen him, I've wanted to, you know, pick on him....extra. More.

BUFFY
(stifles a laugh) Uh-huh.

AMANDA
The thing is, I can't tell. My mom says when a guy teases you, it means he likes you.

BUFFY
(nods) Sometimes that's true.

AMANDA
Is it weird? We're mean to each other, and we like each other.

BUFFY
Well, it depends. Sometimes that's how people relate. Being mean to each other. Even mortal enemies— (increasingly emphatic) Then with the— And that leads to no good, absolutely no good. And much confusion. A-and then it's over. Absolutely, seriously, definitely over. And that's confusing too. The over part. Which it is. Over! (catches herself, calms a bit) So, maybe.

Amanda looks somewhat confused. Buffy smiles.

 

That seems to indicate to me that all that hitting of Spike might have been Buffy "liking a guy and wanting to pick on  him".  Spike seemed to want to be tender and Buffy rough during the sexcapades...his "tie up and torture" of Dru was because that is what SHE liked.  I think Buffy was blowing smoke with her comment about it being third base for Spike but I DO think he picked up on her hitting (touching) him a lot and read it as interest, picking on the guy you have a crush on.

 

Kathleen

Dec 06 2007 05:28 am   #30Nika

Sort of like a playground crush. My first crush I use to hit him all the time. Nasty and mean, yes it might have been, but that's how we related and we were only eight.

Anyway, I do think a lot of the violence was on Buffy's part, but Spike didn't seem really adverse to it. He did call the violence 'dancing', a sort of poetic and romantic term for it.

But I always thought the comment that Buffy made in crush was sort of an excuse to her, something she came up with to justify why he had a crush on. I thought maybe she couldn't deal with the fact that he might like her for her, and came up with the excuse that the only reason he liked her was because she showed him attention violently. And that it was a passing fancy.

"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold