BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Logical Explanation, please

Dec 21 2007 01:24 am   #1Scarlet Ibis

Alright--no "damaged by Angel excuses," (Drusilla was most certainly damaged by Angelus, but had enough sense to find someone that would be hers) but I want someone to please explain to me how it's possibly justifiable to treat someone like hot garbage, and for no valid reason.

Shady past aside, because this is clearly not new territory (Angel was "evil" for a good thirty years or so more than Spike, and could only be "good" when cursed), how can you push someone away who would clearly be devoted to you (if his past relationship with the woman he loved was any indication), gives you distance, but doesn't leave you completely alone like the other men in your life, stood by your side in numerous life or death situations, took on the good fight in your stead, when it was believed (by him at least) that you would be gone forever, even when your father figure saw fit to move on (not knocking Giles, just making a point), is the sole person that you find yourself confiding in, and turning to whenever there's a problem in your life, and he never hesitates to help you however he can, and his only wish is to make you happy.  Soul or not, what sane person doesn't even *attempt* to give that a fair chance?

And this is in regards to pre-"Smashed," because by then, she had already pushed him too far.  But before--in OMWF or "Tabula Rasa," what is her reason for treating him so poorly?  I do not see one.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 21 2007 01:31 am   #2Shadow

To be honest, I think a LOT of Buffy's issues are prompted by insecurity.  She relies on other people's judgement and opinions on how to live her life, mostly because she's afraid.  Shortly after being called... her parents split, and I think Buffy blames herself (see episode where nightmares come true) for not being the "perfect daughter".  If she isnt the "perfect friend", "perfect sister" "perfect slayer" etc, I think she's afraid they will all leave her.

And, I know you dont want to hear the "Angel" excuse, but her friends and her watcher started in with the whole "lets tell Buffy how to live her life" routine after the whole crap with Angel going Evil...

 

After that, with everyone harping on "he's evil" and "he's soulless" or "he's tried to kill us!", she went along with her friends and her watcher out of fear that they would abandon her. 

Tahlmorra lujhalla mei wiccan, cheysu.
Dec 21 2007 01:37 am   #3FetchingMadScientist

I think it all comes down to self-esteem.  Buffy had none, and used the Slayer thing as a cover for it.  If you don't love yourself, it's hard to love anyone, even if it's painfully clear that they love you.

"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Dec 21 2007 01:51 am   #4Nika

I think a part of it is that Buffy is influenced by the people around her. She was influenced by Giles, by his teachings about vampires and never really thought to question him. She is influenced by Willow and Xander's opinions about her.

Logically she knows all that you pointed out about Spike, she knew it in Lie to Me when she knew threatening Drusilla would stop him from feeding off all those delusional teens. She knows that Spike would do anything for her, that's why she trusts him with Dawn and why she went to him in season six. But when actually having to accept it she can't reconcile what she believes to be true about vampires and demons, and what she knows is true about Spike.

Or at least that's just what I think.

"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Dec 21 2007 02:29 am   #5Caro Mio

They didn't actually start in on the "judging Buffy's life" thing until she ran away after sending Angel to hell (excluding Xander, who didn't like Angel anyway). Giles doesn't blame her, and neither does Willow, until she takes off for months. It was the abandonment that started the harsh judging - maybe just for itself, or maybe they started to blame her for Angelus in retrospect with time to think about it, but not trusting Buffy didn't actually come until she took off without saying a word to the other 3. They only knew she won by the world not being sucked into Hell, which had to sting, and didn't know if she was alive until someone checked the mansion, which had to sting further.

But yeah, Buffy's fears started with her parents not believing her and putting her in the mental ward, and just compounded from there. The stronger Buffy the Slayer got in her job, the weaker Buffy the Girl was in self-esteem. Add to that the diminished ability to maintain human relationships post the joining spell that called up the power of the First Slayer, and Buffy just...broke. Hell, there could be subconscious guilt lying in there somewhere for trying to kill Faith in pre-meditated murder and it's eating at her soul. I've certainly seen plenty of people who don't realize the impact of a single event until 5, 10 years later.

She was someone who grew up being defined by the opinions of others, and it took until she was 22 to *start* breaking out of that. I certainly think the writers could have created a flawed "hero" without taking that particular route of dysfunction.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Dec 21 2007 02:58 am   #6SpikesKatMac

I think that a lot of Buffy's issues, such as her insecurities, her reliance on her friends good opinions of her, and her firm belief in a black & white world, stem from her parent's divorce and her father's subsequent abandonment of the family.  In Buffy's mind, that paved the way for the underlying belief she holds that all the people who love her will abandon her, and I think this belief was strengthened by the episode "Nightmares", where her father told her the divorce, and his absence from her life, was all her fault, and how he was disapointed in her.  I think this explains Buffy's need to please the people in her life, rather than pleasing herself; her fear of abandonment becomes over-whelming, and would certainly explain why it's a factor throughout all of her relationships, both with her friends and her boyfriends. 

I think Angel's turn in to Angelus caused some damage, but I think the underlying factor in all of Buffy's issues was the feelings of abandonment caused by her father, and the responsibility she felt for her parent's divorce.   Angel and Riley subsequently leaving, and the morning-after with Parker, would have cemented this.  Buffy should have been in therapy from the moment her father moved out; Slayer issues aside, speaking with a trained therapist could have given Buffy a lot of perspective and closure, and some coping mechanisms that would have helped her later in life.

So after that little rant, my opinion is this:  Buffy simply didn't have the ability to love someone else, not in a romantic sense.  By the time she was brought back from the dead, Buffy was so screwed up from all the crap she'd been through, Spike's love, rather than healing her, (which is what we'd like to think it would do, and what Spike wanted it to do), simply highlighted the lack in Buffy.  She didn't have the ability to see all that Spike had to offer, which iswhyshe didn't give it a fair chance.  She couldn't see what she was throwing away, until it was too late.  (Which is what makes me want to throttle her!)

:boohoo:  Now, I'll climb off my soapbox, and go away!  :lol:

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 21 2007 03:53 am   #7Spikez_tart
The stronger Buffy the Slayer got in her job, the weaker Buffy the Girl was in self-esteem.

 

I think you've got something there, Caro.  Buffy the Slayer is always training, fighting, doing demon research, testing and growing.  What's happening with Buffy the Girl?  Flunking out of high school, missing out on cheerleading and every other fun thing that high school girls get to do.  Buffy the Girl atrophies while the Slayer sucks the life out of her. 

Top that off with being rejected or betrayed or threatened by all the men in her life:  Dad, Angel, Joyce's Robot Boyfriend, Ford, Scott, Riley and of course Parker.  (Owen doesn't reject her, but he seems far more interested in her life of danger than in her - so a sort of rejection.)  And, let's not forget Giles, who betrays her on numerous occasions large and subtle.  In every episode, he undermines her - she comes to him and says "I think there's a big bad, blah blah blah..." and he says "Don't be silly, it's a perfectly normal blah blah blah." 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 21 2007 05:31 pm   #8Guest

Adding to what others have said...

Daddy issues can be a pretty big factor in admitting love, and admitting that one is worthy of being loved.  Many women that have been abandoned by their fathers or father figures (or who feel that they've been abandoned) feel that if they weren't good enough for their own dad to love them, then how can any man possibly love them?

Obviously, there's some major badness with this internalized argument, but sadly, it's the case with many girls.  When you add that to the major depression that she suffered at being torn out of heaven, Buffy had very little chance.  She wasn't self aware enough to help herself, as she focused primarily on her Slayer-ness, and she had no one else that could look past that Slayer-ness to the girl underneath to see that she needed help--or at least, she didn't have anyone that saw the need, and who was close enough to her to get through to her.

Depression is a debilitating disease.  The person affected by it may not want to be depressed, but it becomes all they know, and change becomes scary to the point of being impossible--that is, if they can even acknowledge the need for change, which I don't think that Buffy could.  She was so set on being perfect all of the time in order to please those around her (whether they wanted her to or not is beside the point, regardless of their views, that's what she felt she had to do), that she couldn't stop and realize that perfection is impossible--this, even as she was painfully aware that she wasn't perfect.

What ends up happening is that a severely depressed person pushes away anyone that can or wants to help them, especially anyone that wants to have a serious romantic relationship.  Add in that Spike is a creature that she has been taught can't love--a lesson which is compounded by Angel's transformation to Angelus, even if she felt differently prior to that transformation--and she probably felt a) guilty that she didn't have the current ability to love, b) confused by the emotions that he evoked in her (and I don't think she dealt well with the unknown), and c) angry that anyone would dare love her in the first place, going back to "if dad can't love me, how can anyone else?" This is because it forces her to put the blame of her father's abandonment on him rather than on herself, and it's far easier for someone who has daddy issues, feels that they must be perfect but fails to meet that standard, and has severe depression, to put blame oneself rather than where it really resides.  Buffy simply transferred that blame to Spike, and that's actually a pretty normal response.  Most women in this situation wouldn't physically abuse the man trying to love them, they would simply demonize them in their minds, making them out to be worse than they actually are and nitpicking at their faults; as a Slayer, Buffy doesn't have the same coping mechanisms as most women, plus Spike actually is a demon.  I think that her issues with her father affected her in different ways before her death because her return from heaven prompted a much more severe depression than she ever had to deal with before, but she did have a difficult time opening up to any of her past boyfriends, including, to some extent, Angel.

Of course, I could be projecting just a little too much :lol:

Dec 22 2007 12:38 am   #9Eowyn315

Many women that have been abandoned by their fathers or father figures (or who feel that they've been abandoned) feel that if they weren't good enough for their own dad to love them, then how can any man possibly love them?

There's also the idea that women are attracted to men who are like their fathers. So, if a woman has abandonment issues with her father, she may tend to seek out men who are more likely to abandon her.

That would also explain to some extent why she always pushed Spike away. She knew he would never abandon her - and, in fact, only managed to say she loved him when she was sure he was leaving her.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 22 2007 02:26 am   #10Guest

Everything I am about to say in no way is meant to excuse the abuse and use of a being that had earned better (Spike).  However well beyond Angel and the messed up mind and heart he left behind, beyond the abandonment issues that started with Hank, in addition to Buffy being quite young in many respects (especially emotionally)...there is another thing to remember....one that we often overlook because the shows played out over MONTHS from season 5 through season 6.  It is easier to see when watching episodes back to back.

Lets's look at her mental/emotional state starting in S5.  She has a sick mother and discovers her memories have been tampered with and her "brat" sister isn't "real" but IS her responsibility (and the entire stability of the universe depends on keeping her safe).  The being after this sister has kicked major butt where Buffy is concerned and in time Buffy discovers this being is a goddess, a demented one at that.  At the same time her boyfriend cheats on her (after putting her and all the others in danger if he had been turned) and abandons her even knowing she's got a very powerful enemy after her and a sick mom (even if the surgery went well... the bandages weren't even removed yet!).  Just when she's getting her legs under her again her mother dies and the impact of THAT can never be underestimated!  Joyce took care of all of Buffy's life except the Slayer part not to mention Dawns.  Suddenly Buffy had to deal with all those responsibilities too but couldn't even concentrate on them or her genuine grief because Glory was hot on her tail.  In VERY quick order she was on the run from the hellgod without any real hope of defeating her.  Then Dawn is taken (and Buffy is to blame for calling Ben).  

Pause to note a very important reaction.....Buffy has a breakdown!  A complete breakdown that would have put most people (herself included) in a hospital and result in medication for a period after.  She was catatonic and only "brought out of it" with the help of magic and the insistence that she was urgently needed to try to pull Dawn out of the ringer.  DON'T forget this condition because it is only a day from her death!

Then we get to it.  Buffy dies.  Her burden laid to rest with her body.  Her duty at an end.  No more night after night of pain (hey, it hurts getting hit even with Slayer healing) and loss and fear of how to go on without Joyce.

Then Willow and company pull her from the only peace she has known.  What is the world like that she wakes to?  It sure looked like hell to me too.  Demons burning the town, her lookalike (she was to befuddled to even think "Bot" at the time too) being pulled apart, people yelling and demanding things and as far from peace as you can get.  Now this is the girl that had the breakdown before death remember.

As she begins to realize she's back she finds even more responsibility on her shoulders.  Finanaces, mortgage (hey, those of you still too young to have to deal with debt and the threat of no home don't know what that will do to a HEALTHY person and I hope you never do).  Her sister, that she had just died for, needs to be cared for and is also acting out in a major way.  Not only can Buffy not go back to college or get the kind of job education can lead to but the responsibility of trying to help Dawn to a better life is all on her.  Her Watcher chooses THIS time to be on her case about how she needs to be more responsible and even hints that her friends troubles should be Buffy's concern too!  She gets a dead end, soul eating job that doesn't begin to cover everything and her friends are acting out as badly as Dawn!  Willow is still camped out in Joyce's old room and paying no rent (and wrecking havock with the magic).

Buffy was already broken and all of this was covering her broken soul with more and more rubble.

I won't address the situation with Spike, suffice to say he was trying to help but instead was enabling her (like giving a drink out of sympathy to a person with an alcohol problem....he didn't know any better and was trying).  The things she was doing to him though WERE mattering to her.....not as they should (for his sake) but because it underlined to her how "bad" and "wrong" she was.

Not one of her friends or watcher suggested counseling for the problems she was obviously having.  Not one offered any real help (sorry but having a buddy give you a "deal" on pipes when you are stone broke doesn't cut it).  Willow could have used some of that magic overload to do some repair around the house or maybe generate some more income...lots of things they COULD have done to actually help their "good friend".  She was the one beaten down ...on the ropes ... and they grinned and asked for free sandwiches (and gloated, in Xanders case, that she was one of the minimum wage working stiffs now).

Spike bore the brunt of it and he least of all deserved it.  Her "love" Angel met her in the desert and obviously didn't help at all.  Her adult Watcher was back in London and not even trying to get the Council to cough up some help.  As I said, no one even suggested this girl who had be catatonic a day before jumping off a tower might need some psychiatric help!

Was she justified?  NO.  Was she right?  NO.  Was she responsible for her choices? Yes, but you have to see how impaired her judgement was....Spike certainly did and that is why he could forgive her.

See even without the whole Angel thing she was not in the best place to recognize what a good gift she had staring her in the eye!  The Powers could have put a pretty bow on Spike and she wouldn't have had a clue....she was not able to deal with herself let alone anyone else.  She was only starting to come out of it at that final battle in S7 IMHO.  She made progress in S7 but not a lot.  She was finally finding (thanks to Spike) her footing again after all her "nearest and dearest" tossed her out of her own house to the streets crawling with Bringers and UberVamps wanting to kill her because she had made a less than perfect plan!  They had proven what she had feared....she HAD to be "perfect" as they defined it or they wanted nothing to do with her, even the fake sister she had died for.  Spike had her back and she FINALLY saw it.  He reminded her of who she really was....not who she had been feeling she was for the previous couple of years.....just as Joyce would have he gave her that foundation she needed and she finally was starting to stand up straight again.  

Long winded here....sorry... but while her behavior was totally wrong and especially how she took it all out on Spike, but lets not forget how terribly damaged this girl was (yes 21 is an "adult" but I know from experience that is still so very young...I didn't start to "mature" until my 30's and I have a 70 year old sister who never will!). 

We usually take things out on those whose love we are sure of. As Spike said, "You always hurt the one you love."  Next time you say something hateful to someone you love because you are hurting or someone else has pissed you off....and you will, it's human nature... remember that.  You feel safe dumping on them because you know they won't stop loving you.  This is subconscious BTW.  Clearly Buffy knew Spike wouldn't stop loving her no matter what she did.  She also knew the others in her life would.  Events proved her right.

Kathleen

Dec 22 2007 02:27 am   #11Guest

Geez....I' m not signed in on this computer *blush*....that LONG LONG comment was me, pfeifferpack....sorry!


Kathleen

Dec 22 2007 03:29 am   #12Storm

Yes!  I think that you've hit the nail on the head, pfeifferpack, about all the things piled against her.  And I agree that 21 is still incredibly young, and it only makes things worse when that 21 year old is depressed and yet must bear the weight of the world (pretty much literally, in Buffy's case). 

I have to look at myself when I was that age, and I have to say I've changed as much between 21 and (nearly) 28 as I did between 11 and 18.  I can't say that I ever beat anyone to a pulp, but I did do other things to my loved ones that I am, in retrospect, ashamed of.

I also have to say that things become so much more... muddled when a person is depressed, and they often can't see what others outside of the situation can.  I mean, it's just as easy for us to say 'Buffy should have seen what was in front of her' as it is to say that a friend should follow some piece of life-changing advice...  But it's not always easy to just come up with the life-changing advice if it's you in the situation, especially if everyone that surrounds you pushes you away from the best possible solution.

Dec 22 2007 03:46 am   #13Immortal Beloved

Bravo, Kathleen!  I've been trying to put my thoughts on this topic into words for an embarrassing amount of time, but I just couldn't get my brain to say what I wanted to say.  I log on, and you've already said it for me :-)  I wholeheartedly agree with every word you've said. 

I notice a lot of Buffy bashing among Spuffy shippers.  Not everyone does it, but it's enough to make me wonder why.  I don't hate Buffy--I might not like her actions or her decisions--but I don't hate her because I understand just how f-ed up she was.  I agree: she wasn't right, she wasn't justified, and she was responsible for her own actions.  But, when I take into account everything that she has been through, when I try to see the world through her eyes, I just can't help but to see the train wreck of her relationship with Spike coming long before it happens. 

She was a girl with the literal weight of the world on her shoulders, and her shoulders alone.  No one in the world is strong enough to take on that kind of responsibility and not crack, let alone have to add in the day-to-day matters of money, guarding a child, running a household.  Buffy was an incredibly strong Slayer (and I mean more than just physcially).  Buffy the girl was bound to break.

All people have faults.  Granted, Buffy's faults are pretty big and they cause she and Spike and everyone around her a great deal of pain; but, all of the characters have their downfalls.  Maybe Buffy just falls farther because they put her on a pedestal: the higher you are, the harder you fall.  It's hard to watch our heroes fall, but we must remember that heroes are just people--people with superpowers, or maybe just a pointy stick :-P --but people nonetheless.  Whenever I hear that Superman song, I think of Buffy.  Even heroes have the right to bleed.

Does Buffy's right to bleed give her the right to make Spike bleed with her fists and her words?  Hell, no.  Buffy was shattered, and Spike tried to give her what she needed: love and understanding.  But no one could fix Buffy, except Buffy herself; all of Spike's love couldn't her back together again.  Buffy's hurt is an explanation for her behavior, but it's NOT an excuse.  What she did to him--with him--was heinous.  Spike knows it, but he also knows how much she was hurting.  As you so brilliantly point out, that's why he's able to forgive her.  That's why I can forgive her, too.

 

One more thing: I agree with the our Guest's depression analysis, too.  The first episode of Season 6 is called "Bargaining" for a reason.  The five stages of grief are: Denial, Bargaining, Depression, Anger, and Acceptance.  Clearly, Buffy was in the depression stage.  Mental disorders, including depression, can lead people to do all sorts of crazy crap.  Again, not an excuse, just an explanation :-)

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Dec 22 2007 06:47 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

Well, I did a bit of digging around...and as I was looking at the symptons of major depression disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders, I did not see violence to be one of them.  And though abandoned childhood syndrome is not listed in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual, the symptons for that as well also does not include violence.  However, it does include clinginess, brought on by fear and uncertanties, which would lead me to believe that her actions towards Spike should have in fact logically been the opposite of what we got to see.  But there is  also "alienation from the environment--withdrawl from social activities, resistance towards others" which we see in her treatment of her friends.  But if there was true consistency...what with her anger and what have you, then I think it would have made sense if she would have asked Willow to leave, particularly so since she resided in her mother's room.  

Or her crap job, which she chose on her own, for some strange reason...

Spike asks her to leave, and she declines.  Riley asks her to leave, and she walks away without a backwards glance.  It does not add up.  If one is insecure and clingy, it would make sense to cling to the person that is actually there.  Therefore, since none of the actions are consistent in my opinion to the symptoms, then I can't write it off as depression or daddy/abandonment issues.  There was something else at work.  Perhaps it was pure irrationality, or stupidity, greed, or even control.  Maybe all of those were at work.

Also, I do not hate Buffy.  However, I utterly detested about 85-90% of her actions in s6.  Kennedy I hated, maybe the bulk of the writers of season six, and of course, Marti Noxon, but I don't hate Buffy.  However, I'm not willing to give her pass and write it off as her being the Slayer, or abandoned, or her responsiblities or whatever.  It's possible for anyone to implode.  Too much stress, responsibilities, yada, yada, yada, I get that.  And hey-- Faith and Willow are perfect examples.  In fact, Faith has *tons* more abandonment issues than Buffy does (or she damn well should).  But the thing of it is...when they did implode or what have you, they imploded on *everyone* around them--not just one person like Buffy did. And that is what upsets me very much.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 22 2007 08:22 am   #15Caro Mio

Yep, that's what upsets me, too, Scarlet.

The writers clearly had no concept of real depression, or even most other mental disorders, in how they wrote Buffy. She's not realistic. The violence would have been a symptom of other psychoses. Part of the problem is that she is a rare type, in that physical violence is her job, and therefore she channels every other part of her life in her work.......but she's an abuser, not just a depressed person or an abandoned person. Abusers have very low self-esteem, which is why they exercise power over others in negative ways, but they are a very different type to what Buffy was said to have when she first came back.

I'm hard on her because I've had some hard times, and a few worse hurts than she did at a young age, and I never did to friends, family, or other people around me what she did. I may have been borderline self-destructive at a point or two, but I never tried to take anyone else down with me. And that was at age 16, so being young is not an excuse. She just didn't try to do better.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Dec 22 2007 08:43 am   #16Scarlet Ibis

Me too, Caro.  Through my own personal experience, which happened at a much younger age than Buffy...it was my own secret hell.  I didn't attempt to drag anyone down with me.  The abuse does not fit--particularly so since it's towards the one person who's perceived as being her rock at that point in time.

Added:  On Angel, Buffy hits Angel, and is all shocked when he hit her back.  And when she has the audacity to act all hurt about it, Angel points out that she is in fact stronger than him and hit him first.  This is all before the "Primeval" ultra-slayer spell thingy.  That superiority and urge to hit was already there.  As Faith put it--Buffy is all about control.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 22 2007 05:06 pm   #17Guest

Oh, very true. Part of it goes all the way back to her popular girl thing, where she sat in judgment of the value of others. She totally got off on the power of being stonger than others......it just got worse as her humanity slipped away. There's only the one time, in high school, that she was all "I don't always resort to violence", and Xander's all "Keep telling yourself that". Can't remember his exact quote, but that's the gist.

It's too bad her mother didn't see a lot of those early hit-first-then-ask-questions moments. She might have been able to nip that behavior in the bud. I think Joyce would have been apalled if she'd seen that uglier side.

CM

Dec 22 2007 08:55 pm   #18Nika

I think Joyce might have seen a little of it (not a lot), when Buffy pushes her in Becoming. I noticed that Buffy resorts to violence when she feels out of control, like that day.

"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Dec 22 2007 09:22 pm   #19Eowyn315

Buffy has *always* used violence, even when it wasn't necessary.

She doesn't get her closure with the Master until she stakes her way through his minions and then pounds his bones into powder. The problem in season 6, though, is that she can't pound the person who killed her, and she can't pound the people who brought her back (because even if she's not healthy, she can at least see that she shouldn't physically hurt her friends). So, she pounds on the one person who can take it - and who lets her do it. But Spike's not her problem, so being violent toward him isn't actually giving her closure, or making her feel all that much better.

Bottom line, Buffy has a whole host of issues. I think she was depressed when she came back, but she also tends to handle her problems with violence, and she tends to repress her emotions and keep things from her friends when she should be opening up to them. She also has abandonment issues and trust issues and then her issues have issues. All of that combines to make one very fucked up girl. Her symptoms may not be consistent with depression, but I think that's because it's not just depression that's affecting her.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 22 2007 10:46 pm   #20pfeifferpack

PERFECT answer Eowyn!  That was kinda my point...she was one messed up chick even without the Angel issues and needed therapy at the very least!  Yes she has a mixed bag of issues with issues.

And ITA she always resorts to the physical.  In fact she says herself that she is not verbal girl.  Her responses are usually all physical be it pleasure (a hug or kiss or "good" sex) or hitting.  I don't think she said "I love you" too much (except the whole Angel fantasy), not to her mom or to Dawn...it even bothered her.  However her actions often showed it.

She was also really stuck in the "anger" part of processing.  She was angry at her mom for dying (that's a grief stage not a character flaw) and dumping adulthood on her and she was angry at her "calling" once more demanding all from her and she was furious not just angry with the ones who brought her back.  She also knew she couldn't lash out at the ones she was really angry with.  Poor Spike understood as when he told her to "put it all on me".  It was WRONG and she was SICK but not evil.  I'd like to think she could get her head screwed on properly eventually.

Kathleen

Dec 22 2007 10:47 pm   #21Immortal Beloved

Kennedy I hated. 

I don't think anybody would debate that :nod:

they imploded on *everyone* around them--not just one person like Buffy did.

Buffy does always use violence; however, she's not allowed to take out her aggression on the other people around her.  She's been called as the Slayer, which is just a nice name for killer.  She is trained as a killer and encouraged to kill--but not humans.  Spike is a vampire; Buffy is the vampire Slayer.  She's been told to kill his kind.  Maybe she tries to convince herself that it's okay because he's not human. You could argue that she could have beaten the crap out of Angel, but Angel had a soul.  Buffy uses souls as the line drawn between human and non-human.  Besides, Angel wasn't around--he left.  Spike stayed, and Buffy clung to him in her own trained-killer way. 

Let us not forget that Spike was a sentient being with the ability to choose, just like Buffy.  He could have walked away at any point in time, but he doesn't.  Spike has a host of issues all his own: he's an enabler, he allows himself to be abused.  Perhaps his being a vampire with a selective conscience, being Yoda'd by Angelus, the worst vampire on record, and shacking up with Drusilla the loon for 120 years may have something to do with it :-P; but, he had a choice to stay or to go.  He did stay to try to help Buffy; but, let's face it, he also stayed for himself.  He loves her and he'd do anything--anything--to be with her, including allowing her to abuse him.  He only leaves when he hurts her more than he's helped her.

I was watching "When She Was Bad" earlier, and I realized that Buffy's never reacted to personal demons well.  Slayer Buffy can slay actual demons 'till the cows come home.  Buffy the girl doesn't cope well.  She becomes uber self-reliant, defensive, and kinda caustic after the dies the first time.  When she has to run the man she loves through with a sword, she runs away from her mother, her friends, her life.  When Glory takes Dawn, she goes catatonic.  Have her commit suicide off a tower, go to heaven for God knows how long (no pun, I swear), be pulled out of her resting place by the very people who are supposed to love her, and I suppose that the non-coping would be kicked up to untold notches.

I do believe that there comes a point where a person has to either recognize that they need help and get it or completely self-destruct.  I think there is a point where she realizes that it's not okay  Unfortunately, I don't think that happens until AFTER she's beaten the ever loving shit out of Spike in that alley.  That doesn't mean that she wouldn't have a relapse, but I think she finally sees how screwed up she really is reflected in his pulpy face.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Dec 23 2007 12:44 am   #22Scarlet Ibis

Ah, but she did have a relapse--she joins in the round of kick the Spike when Riley shows up in town.  She punches him so hard, that he knocked on his ass litrally, and his nose begins to bleed.  Was that really called for?  Nah.

And yes, we all know Spike was an enabler...but I still blame the abuser more than the abused.

Oh--and Faith had a calling too.  She still lashed out at the humans around her.  And though Willow didn't have a calling, she certainly knew right from wrong.  Wanting to kill Jonathan and Andrew was certainly irrational, but I could see how she would blame them for Tara's death.  But then she tries to kill Buffy, Xander, Giles and Dawn--not hurt them, but kill them.  Purposely. 

So yeah, Buffy could totally be...allowed to hurt humans.  In fact, she says herself that a Slayer automatically makes her better.  The only reason she feels inferior in her mind is that it "cuts her off" from the people around her.  But she feels superior all the same.  She abuses power (power that Anya points out, she didn't earn), and yeah, I think she did need every square inch of her ass kicked.  I think I wish Willow did a better job of it :P

*added*  I was looking for something else, but found this to be interesting: 

Buffy is punching the punching bag while Willow sits nearby talking.

WILLOW: I mean, even if the bank did get robbed, which, you battling demons couldn't possibly know ... you would think there would be some kind of reward.

Buffy continues hitting the bag hard and fast.

WILLOW: But no, they're like, "Oh, we're not gonna give you money unless you prove you don't need it." I mean, what kind of system is that?
BUFFY: (pauses) You're asking the wrong gal.

She resumes punching.

WILLOW: (surprised) Hey. (gets down, goes over to her) Buffy, you're mad.
BUFFY: (stops punching) You noticed. (shrugs) It'll pass. (resumes punching)
WILLOW: No! Anger ... is a big, powerful emotion you should feel.
BUFFY: (stops punching) Well ... that's good then.

Buffy stands there, steadying the punching bag with her hands. She shrugs.

BUFFY: It's gone now.

So, she does have a way to vent her anger...but uses Spike later on instead.  Why?  There's the punching bag, patrol...I don't see a viable reason for hitting him, especially when initially it is believed he couldn't even hit back (I'm still talking pre sex here--she saw fit to hit him in s6 before all that)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 23 2007 01:48 am   #23Eowyn315

I said this in that thread about "Crush," but I think it's the same principle - Buffy hits Spike because it's easy.

Why Spike rather than patrol? Well, patrol is iffy. Maybe there won't be any vampires that night. Maybe they'll be newly-risen and get staked too easily for it to be satisfying. (Sidebar: Is beating up non-Spike vampires really any more acceptable than beating up Spike? She shouldn't really be using them as punching bags, either. As Giles says, "It should simply be plunge and move on, plunge and move on.")

Spike, on the other hand, is always around. She knows where to find him, and usually, he's deliberately putting himself in her path. He also tends to do a good job of pissing her off, which gives her a "reason" to hit him. He doesn't have a soul, so she doesn't worry about how she treats him.

Why Spike rather than a punching bag? Well, I don't have a whole lot of experience with that, but I'd imagine that hitting a live (or undead) person is more satisfying than a punching bag.

Also, once they got into the sexual relationship, Spike actually encouraged it. That's what he says in "Dead Things" - put it all on me. Why shouldn't she give him what he asks for? (And I mean that from Buffy's perspective. I can think of plenty of reasons why she shouldn't...)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 24 2007 03:25 am   #24Immortal Beloved

Faith had a calling too.  She still lashed out at the humans around her. 

But Buffy always tries to avoid harming humans.  She tries to draw a line so that she doesn't feel like nothing but a vicious killer.  Killing whatever moves is what makes Faith the bad Slayer.  She kills harmless demons, humans, and anything standing in the way of what she wants: want, take, have.  Buffy doesn't even want to kill Warren after he kills Tara and nearly kills Buffy.  She tells Dawn that they have to let the human laws--not the slayer laws--apply.  In my opinion, if some guy comes to your house, murders your friend, and nearly kills you, I don't think anybody would begrudge you a little vengeance :-P  

Buffy does harm a human at least once in some grave way: she stabs Faith.  It's not as though Faith wasn't trying to kill her, too; and, let's face it, Slayers are a little more than human, and so are vampires (i.e., Spike).  Buffy always hit Spike, even when he had the chip, but she crosses the line of hitting Spike and abusing him when she comes back from the dead.  

Of course, if Buffy had started beating the crap out of Dawn, or say Tara, we'd all be discussing why them instead of why Spike.  Faith lashed out at everybody.  Buffy lashed out at Spike.  Dawn and friends are her tethers to her precious "normal" life (thought I don't know how normal it is with mystical keys, witches, and vengeance demons :-P ) They all expected her to be perfect.  Lashing out at them would have cut her "normal" ties and isolated her even more, just like Faith.

Why Spike rather than a punching bag? Well, I don't have a whole lot of experience with that, but I'd imagine that hitting a live (or undead) person is more satisfying than a punching bag.

I'm not a hitter, either, but I'd have to go with E on this one.  Buffy does have a lot of anger inside: anger at being brought back, anger at the people who brought her back, her mother dying, being the Slayer (no, she didn't earn her power.  It was foisted upon her with no choice), anger at having to take care of Dawn, anger at her father for being absent, anger at Giles for abandoning her, anger at Spike, the soulless demon--who in her mind, isn't supposed to love at all--being the only willing to love her the way she needs to be.  Besides, Buffy hitting a punching bag for half a season?  Not very interesting plot ;-)

I think we've all come up with good explanations of how Buffy got so screwed up, but I don't think there IS a logical explanation for why people do bad things.  I've seen men beat the crap out of their wives who are nothing but loving and supportive.  I've seen women cut their husband's penises off (the Bobbit chop-it).  I've seen children with caring and understanding parents run away from home.  People steal from their own families to buy drugs.  There are serial killers, and rapists, and child molesters, and all sorts of f-ed up people in this f-ed up world.  I can't think of a logical reason for any of it, but I think that's the point.  They aren't thinking or acting logically.  So, maybe no logical explanation exists.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Dec 24 2007 05:15 am   #25Scarlet Ibis

Okay, hitting a live, well, sentient being anyway is better than an inanimate object (even though for quite awhile there, Buffy insists Spike can't feel), but why one who can't presumably hit back?  This is why I suggested patrol, but she passes on that, and turns to one who can't hit her.  She goes to one where there wouldn't even be a fight.  That's what gets me--like people who abuse cats or small dogs or children, but wouldn't take on someone who could actually fight back.  They just want to feel that moment of power, and abuse the weaker things or beings around them.  So, Spike is a scapegoat--not only is he not human, he can't fight--because of the chip, and then because he's in love with her, so he won't.

Aha--a breakthrough guys.  I finally figured it out (for me) why I didn't like her so much.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 24 2007 05:47 am   #26Eowyn315

Well, I already suggested one reason why patrol might not be the same - she's not guaranteed to find a vampire to hit on patrol. With Spike, it's pretty much a guarantee that if he's not following her around, she can find him in his crypt.

Also, another reason why patrolling might not be a satisfactory outlet for her aggression is that she sees patrol as a duty, of which she's "just going through the motions." Her heart's not in her patrol, so it's hard to get worked up enough that the fight makes her feel better.

Another thing to think about here, other than "Dead Things" (when he could fight back, so Scarlet's point doesn't apply), Buffy doesn't whale on Spike the way she does the punching bag. It's usually just a punch or two, and she never seeks him out solely for the purpose of hitting him. It's in the context of a conversation - usually one that Spike started. He pisses her off, and then she hits him. There's definitely a problem with that (Buffy uses violence when it's not necessary) but I don't think it's necessarily the same problem as the punching bag scene (Buffy needing to let off steam). I think she solves that problem with Spike by letting off steam through sex.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 24 2007 05:51 am   #27Scarlet Ibis

Actually E, my point does apply.  The original point of this post was pre-sex having Buffy and Spike, pre him knowing his chip didn't work on her, and also kinda post her ressurection.  And it's not too hard to find a demon, maybe not a vamp, but some demon in town, otherwise, she wouldn't patrol as much as she did.  She hit him cause she could, and cause she could get away with it without being hit back.  As I pointed out, like an abuser would.  He was an easy target.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 24 2007 06:00 am   #28Eowyn315

The original point of this post was pre-sex having Buffy and Spike, pre him knowing his chip didn't work on her

Right. "Dead Things" is post-sex and post-chip. So, your point doesn't apply to the "Dead Things" beating, which is the only time she whaled on him like she did the punching bag.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Dec 24 2007 06:06 am   #29Scarlet Ibis

But I'm saying...she had no reason to hit him period before that.  Especially anything that came after "Intervention," and before their fight in "Smashed," but she does all the same.  She's no stranger to flinging verbal barbs, so Spike saying something to piss her off or what have you, is not a valid reason.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 30 2007 09:08 pm   #30nmcil

Great discussion - hope you don't mind my 2cents.

"Dead Things" is such a great episode with such depth and layers – for me it is the one of the major symbolic episode; a culmination and beginning for Buffy and Spike both.

So many things are connected in Dead Things –

The Angel-Angelus disaster, her deep and continuing anger  which she transferred to Spike, her denial of both sides of her nature, the issue of blind obedience to human rules, confrontations of inner demons,

Her Slayer/Killer identity and the complexity of being made into a killer-assassin – having to live and engaged daily with the primal forces of humanity vs. the more develop intellectual and civilized part of her nature.. The reason that she hates being connected with Spike is because they represent both faces of her being. And while Buffy the human is engaged in the brutal beating of another sentient being, it is the monster, in typical great Buffyverse ironic contrast, that is engaged with the Love, Heart, and Sacrifice. Buffy is so destroyed and filled with anger and hatred, both toward self and the representatives of her black/white/child existence – and Spike serves as her symbolic slaying of inner demons.

Buffy has to go through this extreme and deadly action to learn how to live with and leave behind all her teenage and childhood trauma. She has to enter her darkest parts if she is to exit and pass into a phase of an integrated life. Spike also shows, without question, that he is much more than just The Beast, he too is filled with the human capacity for Love and Sacrifice; the prime and vital components of A Hero and Good Man. All the horrors of "Dead Things" come together (for me) during "Sleeper and The Killer In Me" – Buffy has gone into the world of non-black & White, she has grown into the woman that now must have FACTS before acting against the accused Spike, she is in the world of self-created ideas and guides of the intellect and moral life.

Buffy & Spike have much to live and learn from, but these acts in the back alley of a police station, and what a great symbol and metaphor of control and living amongst human society. Katrina and Dawn as such powerful symbols of the destruction and re-construction of her life, the humanity that is dying in Buffy and Dawn, her family and loved ones that she is hurting, and Spike the spirit of grace that takes upon himself all her anger, pain and sorrow.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 30 2007 10:09 pm   #31SpikesKatMac

The issue I have with the abuse of Spike (and make no mistake, it's abuse, whether he's an enabler or not, soul-having or not, vampire or not, it's just plain abusive behavior) is that it starts looong before the sex ever happens.  When Spike first shows up with the chip, that's when it all starts.  And it's not just Buffy.

A lot of authors seem to focus on Buffy as the abuser, but all of the core Scoobies are guilty of abusive behavior.  These are the so-called heroes of the show, but they spend the majority of their time either ignoring him, insulting him, or accepting the physical, mental and emotional abuse that is heaped on him.  Why doesn't Giles ever stand up and say "Stop hitting Spike, Buffy.  He can't hit you back.  It's not right."  Why doesn't Willow ever tell Xander to stop picking on him?  Xander was the victim of bullies all through school; yet he bullies Spike constantly.  Why doesn't Buffy realize that her actions are not heroic?

Yes, ok.  Spike is a vampire.  An evil soulless vampire.  Blah blah blah.  He's harmless.  He's been tortured by a government agency, and the heroes' response is to chain him up in a bathtub??  This was what always bothered me about the show; not Buffy's response to her depression and resurrection by sleeping with and manipulating Spike, which was bad enough, but the response of the heroes to bullying, intimidation tactics and outright abuse.

Granted, I'm biased.  I love Spike, have ever since he showed up with Dru in S2.  He's my favorite character, and his multi-layered personality and his romantic nature make him one of the best characters to write or read about.  But Spike never killed any of the Scoobies; threatened, yes, but killed, no.  But Angel not only threatened them, he actually killed Jenny.  And yet, they quasi-accept Angel back into the group after he is resouled.   Sorry, I don't buy the whole Angel/Angelus dichotomy crap the show threw at us.  They're one and the same.  And yet, Angel's part of the crew again.  When he saves Willow from Gwendolyn Post she says "That kind of makes me like him again."  How many times did Spike help or save the Scoobies, and he's not even tolerated?

So, measuring the Scoobies' behavior around souled Angel against unsouled but chipped Spike, I have to theorize that they took the opportunity to abuse a harmless, sentient being simply because they could.   Spike had no soul, no moral compass.  I don't believe that's really an excuse for his behavior; he was intelligent enough to know right from wrong, but he didn't care, unless it affected him personally, like when he teams up with Buffy to save the world.  But all the Scoobs are soul-having; they know right from wrong; they feel guilt, remorse, etc., yet they treat Spike like a pariah.  Did no one ever tell them "treat others as you'd like to be treated?"   Were they simply acting out the hostility and anger they felt towards Angel against Spike?

Buffy's got a lot of issues; all the Scoobies do.  But issues aside, the behavior of Spike comes down to one thing; it was wrong.  And if even one person had stood up and said, "It's not right to treat him that way", I think that would have done a lot to change Spike, in Buffy's mind, from her personal punching bag to an actual individual.  No one did, and it was easy for the behavior to escalate into the horror show we all watched.

And wow, that was a long rant.

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Dec 30 2007 11:49 pm   #32Guest

Hi im new to this, but I have been really interested in the conversations about why she is such a bitch.Its just strikes me funny how she reacted to Giles and Robin`s betrayal when they tried to kill Spike.Well,really the whole  explaination to the reason Giles and Robin really wanted him dead.Was there not a whole lot of jealousy taking place as well as who was really leading this band of Slayers?And what a nerve they had to throw her out of her house!It just goes to show us Human Nature is make a mistake and there will be no tolerance shown,Makes you wonder?.I personally feel the writers really dropped the ball in the last series but that said so did Joss he wasn`t there all the time and I think just maybe they didn`t feel the same about the show they once did.I mean look what happened at the end Buffy just tells Spike she loves him,he dies for her not the rest of the world and what`s she say and do very bloody little,and Grins whats with That! Come on,going off with the same people that bought you back to this situation and they treat you as just a person to do their bidding and learn nothing from their betrayals.I honestly think the writers should not have killed off  Joyce. I think,they should never have bought Dawn in for so long, might have been a more interesting story line to watch Joyce take these so called friends on.What do you think?

Dec 31 2007 01:03 am   #33Scarlet Ibis

Well said SpikesKatMac.

And Guest--well, I agree.  I think Joyce would have been a better moral compass for that entire group than anyone else who was on the show (even thugh I feel her reaction to Spike's love declaration in "Crush" were odd, and made the logical sense that's not).  I think, especially when you take into account her age and knowledge, she would have been the least biased, and would have no fear putting any of the Scoobies in their place.  Giles, though more tolerant than the Scoobies surely, view is still colored by his teachings at the Council, even if he doesn't work for them anymore.  I think it would be kind of hard to unlearn all of that prejudice.  He kinda does, but never fully.  

Willow was okay, considering.  She wants to save Spike from killing himself, even if it is only cause she thought it was "ooky."  And Xander didn't start out that bad, nor did he end his relationship with Spike badly.  He saves Spike in s4, and by the end of s7, he was defending Spike (even though it is not spoken aloud, he does not chime in on the Spike bashing).  It just that hazy middle area of s6 that sucks so hard, and also made no sense (the tree incident in "Afterlife," for instance.  Completely unprovoked, and just plain wrong).

What I also find strange is how readily Anya is accepted (I know this was discussed before, so please forgive me).  She killed way more than Spike, and for ten times longer, and even started a war.  She still reminisces fondly of those killings from time to time, and the only reason she was human was by accident.  There is no conclusive information that once her power center was destroyed that she regained her soul, and that's only if she lost it in the first place, meaning she killed for over a millenium with one, which makes her shamefully worse than Spike in that regard.  It was just such a gigantic hypocrisy.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 31 2007 01:29 am   #34Guest

Thank you, But why  I think Anya was accepted more with the the gang was because it suited Xanda .Its seems to be he got away with anything he deemed was right,And they didn`t really have all that much incommon.That begs to say was he only ever using her?and what does it really say about the rest of them,I mean they use Buffy to fight their battles and Xanda is only with Anya because no-one else wants anything to do with him(only Willow).In looking back none off them are really to goodness friends are they.They blackmail her by using her feeling for them and turning it all around on her I think they added to her problems most off the time.Thats why I thought about Joyce, she would have shortened them right up when they started.I think Xanda was a bully but couldn`t follow it through with Buffy so he used mind games,with Anya he used to make her look foolish for saying things he didn`t want to hear or anyone to know.Thanks to everyone for listening I`ve had my little rant I feel so much better now.  ha

Dec 31 2007 01:30 am   #35jess2357

Hey all,

Backing up a bit (cause that's what I do, sorry), but I wanted to add my two cents to what people above were saying about Buffy's psychological problems. Personally, I don't think depression really fits - she's detached and angry and clearly unhappy, but I think she breaks out of being actually depressed soon after the suicide attempt. What I'd say she is best labelled as is someone with mild BPD (borderline personality disorder) - at least in the sense of seeing people as either completely good or completely bad (splitting). Angel gets two categories - completely bad and completely good, soul dependently. Spike gets completely bad. At the start this is kinda fair - as much as I love him in s2, he is an evil killer. As he doesn't stop wanting to kill people, he can't swap categories. For most people the category of morally ambiguous or ally would occur. For someone with BPD it wouldn't. Same thing happens with friends on occasion - they are either perfect beings to whom she must cling (by hiding her actions, pretending to be perfect) or failures. Example is Giles - he tries to leave her in order to help her (whether it would do this is another matter), and she completely shuts him out. Hmm, not a complete diagnosis, but hopefully an interesting side point?

 

BTW, some of the other symptoms of BPD are "markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self", "inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)", "frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment" and "impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging". Discuss. :-)

Dec 31 2007 07:11 pm   #36pfeifferpack

Oh yes!  BPD!!!My niece has that disorder.  I can see Buffy in that and you may well be on to something.  Point is she was a damaged soul for whatever reason but made WRONG choices (especially her target).

I also agree with Guest and the lovely lady Ibis that Joyce would likely have made major difference had she lived.  Likewise had Giles remained as he was in S1 - 3 (and parts of 4) he would have been a better influence because he was a bit more observant and would have found Spike's transformation of interest at the least.  Killing off Joyce and giving Giles a different personaily took the two best chances for tempering Buffy's "problems" off the table.

I also agree that the abuse began in S4, not 6.  I remember Buffy taunting Spike with her neck as he lay chained and hungry in Giles' tub among other things they tried to play as "funny" that were really mean bully tactics.  They were all less than good examples then. 

I could continue with my agreeing (like Xander starting to come around in S7 from his bigoted past and so many other points).  What happened to Spike was wrong on every level even if he "enabled" and Buffy was damaged....you don't treat sentient beings that way!  Bullys are all around us and there were so many examples of that, all in the realm of the "good guys" that it is sadening.

Kathleen

Jan 01 2008 09:52 am   #37nmcil

The writers really did a horrible job and IMO were cowards for not addressing any of the moral, emotional trauma, and consequences from actions carried out by Buffy in Dead Things." With one of the most powerful and significant episodes of the entire season and series for their main character and hero. Buffy has a complete emotional breakdown, and commits brutal violence in sublimated self-destruction and conscious vengeance against another being. After all the trauma and violence what are we presented with as a conclusion? GREAT BIG NADA - we get the Birthday Party with Buffy and Spike acting like the alley attack and the entire Katrina incident never happened. To this day I still feel like one of the most dramatic episodes and a real opportunity to explore the moral foundations of The Slayer and Buffy the woman was completely lost. The following episodes should have explored the action and issues from "Dead Things." I don’t know why the writers chose not to attempt any conclusion, or at the very least, to acknowledge the tragic and horrendous actions that takes place in the alley scene.

By this stage in the series, Buffy can no longer deny that Spike is making choices to be a better man and transcend his demonic force and we know that she placed great emphasis on having killed Katrina, even by accident. She believes that she must suffer the consequences for her actions, yet the writers have her commit brutal violence against Spike and she does not face or suffer any consequences for her conduct. There is no logical conclusion to "Dead Things."

If it is true, as has been stated, that the writers were concerned with the message that "liking a vicious Bad Boy" was acceptable and they kept writing Spike to offset his popularity, how is Buffy’s brutal attack on Spike allowed without any exploration of consequences for her action. From my perspective, outside of the symbols and metaphor of the experience of the nightmare dreamscape, this episode suffers from a very illogical ending – Buffy just walks away from it all; no big deal and next week it’s time for a party. The writers only succeed in making all the sacrifice and trauma Spike suffer seem a total act of insignificance - all the emotional trauma Buffy suffered also comes off as utterly unimportant.

 

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 01 2008 02:44 pm   #38Guest

I agree, Nmcil.

I find the writers cowardly in a lot of ways when it comes to Buffy's portrayal. If she's supposed to be a hero, or at least, a girl who does heroic things, wouldn't it make their whole theme of "growing up" more powerful to show her deal with the true consequences of her actions? Taking Spike completely out of the equation for a moment, Buffy was going to leave Dawn an orphan by turning herself in for Katrina's death. Buffy would be in prison for years, and there's no one to take care of Dawn - a minor! They don't deal with this at all, except to have Dawn make the wish the next week that people would stop leaving her. Buffy stays at the end, when they're let out of the house, but we don't SEE her make anything up to Dawn.

The writers always seemed surprised when a lot of people weren't 100% on Buffy's side still after she did horrible things - well, duh! Reality, people! Try living in it. If you want to have a girl not be a hero, then don't make her act all superior about being one, then say, "oh, she's really an anti-hero, because she's so flawed". Can we say cop-out? The whole "Scoobies never have to pay" thing was why I always respected AtS as a show more - because there were always consequences to practically everything everybody did, human or demon.

CM

Jan 01 2008 06:56 pm   #39Immortal Beloved

some of the other symptoms of BPD are "markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self", "inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)", "frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment" and "impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging."

My Psych degree is rusty, but I think you may be on to something :-)  I still think Buffy was suffering from major depression, but it's completely possible--and likely--for someone to suffer from more than one disorder at a time.  Sometimes one disorder is born out of another.  Other times, two disorders occur concurrently.  There are very distinct lines between disorder theories on paper.  However, real people are the practice part; what a theroy suggests is not always what happens in practice.  Also, a person doesn't have to display ALL of the symptoms of a disorder in order to be diagnosed with it.  In other words, two out of three ain't bad :-P

It was just such a gigantic hypocrisy.

Ditto, Scarlet.  Nothing, I mean NOTHING, bothers me more than a hypocrite, which is why Xander's character riles me up like no other.  Well, Spike riles me up, too; but that's in a good way ;-)  Ooo!  I'm getting thoughts.  Must go write them down...

Hmm.  That sounded dirty: I meant thoughts about Anya/Xander, not Spike riling me up thoughts :-P

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 01 2008 07:10 pm   #40JoJoBird

I find it far more likely Spike having a dash of BP then buffy. Major Depression sounds right on the spot there for buffy. Spikes temper issues and the way he lashes out and the flux in emotions reminds me far more of my boyfriends behaviour, sometimes its uncanny, not that i see him reacting and think of spike.. just that if anyone setting my BP radar going itd be him. Or that can just be down to being a vampire of his own special brand.

Hyperactive is a nice way of describing spike. Borderline bi polar at the very least. Up down Up down more often then a brides knickers

Anyone else seen Stephen Fry's Bi Polar documentary?

Jan 01 2008 07:22 pm   #41Guest

Guest jumping into the fray here.  I agree with CM.  I blame the writers and Joss gets top billing here.  Joss is a self admitted comic book geek and most, if not all, comic book heroes are flawed.  Joss overdid it with Buffy AND the Scoobies.  It wouldn't have been so bad if there were resolutions or consequences.  Buffy continued just getting more flawed and the Scoobies received hand slaps.  Each so-called epiphany went down the toilet.  It got to the point that I would only laugh when I heard Sarah Mclachlin singing in the background.  THEN, when the writers got worried that Buffy was getting bashed by fans, they tried to correct this by throwing in the bathroom scene in SR.  Really, for me, Buffy and the Scoobies were flawed and very self-centered and only rivaled by the SEINFELD characters.

I agree with CM regarding the ATS characters.  Yes there were flaws but there were consequences and some actually maturing going on here.  I didn't watch ATS much past S2 until S5 because I could barely stomach Angel anymore.    I think it was due to all the Spike bashing and putting Angel on a pedestal.  For me, Spike became an incredible character and far superior to Angel in every way.  I mean really, Angel was self-centered, controlling and extremely pompous.  The best thing that ever happened to Buffy and Angel was Spike and I think Spike got very little recognition or credit.  This is probably why I will adore Spike to the end of my days.

I understand that writers need to come up with something to keep a series going from week to week but I think Joss and ME didn't bother to sit down and review past episodes to try and tie things together better.  It is disappointing that they never realized how flawed they made their characters and how insignificant the consequences were.  I did see some progress on Buffy's part in S7 but it was too little and too late for me.

I guess, this is why I enjoy Spuffy Fanfiction....corrections can be made and better storylines are created.  Even after all these comments, I am still Spuffy because I believe that Spike and Buffy were a perfect match...both were flawed and yet, they complimented each other.  At the same time, I can honestly say that if there had been a Spike spin-off, I would have loved to have seen him be his own man and find love with someone else who 'saw' him and appreciated him.

Hope this makes sense and I will step down from my soap box now.  I have not read any of the S8 comics by Joss.  Can someone tell me if Joss has actually made the characters more mature?  Suffer any pangs of conscience?  Have consequences?

Shanna

Jan 01 2008 08:01 pm   #42nmcil

If I remember the Buffy-Dawn bedroom scene right, Dawn is shown wearing a little heart design on her pajamas - one thing that was always wonderful and so interesting was the art and set direction - those people really did a fantastic job. Even when they writers were giving mixed signals if you look at the art and set design, you could see  much of the story in visual form. Almost everything, especially in the last three seasons, gave a visual clue to the symbolism of the show. Angel also had superb art and set direction with the visual telling of the story.

Katrina and how much Buffy connects self-destructive behavior, Spike, and all her emotional trauma is presented beautifully in the bedroom nightmare scene. Dawn's bedroom scene brings all that self-hatred and anger buffy is living through into the real world and family - Buffy will literally break Dawn's Heart and Break Spike face and heart as well.

Buffy, I think, hides behind her duty and face as the slayer to run away from the real world and all her problems. Of course, the writers were telling their story of a flawed heroine and not a story of a real world situation young woman in deep emotional dysfunction. The writers probably felt that they did not have to address Buffys actions and any consequences from those acts.

One of the major flaws in telling the Buffy story were all the mixed signals and double standards applied to the characters - Xander being one of the most obvious. However, I believe that the series was created and intended to make the viewers really think about and question the actions of all the characters, the use of double standards and moral ambiguity served a better purpose Presenting answers for the viewers may have been an easier path, but the powerful connection with the audience would have suffered. All the discussions on the Buffy and Angel boards told exactly how much the viewers were thinking about the themes presented; it was all this THINKING that was what really made the Buffyverse superb television and drama and this is why most programs will never satisfy people who watched Buffy.

While I always disliked the Xander and Riley characters, they did show a face and representation of bigotry and unquestioned obedience to rules. Their conduct and story line were very important for making the audience think. Caleb was, at least for me, along with Spike, the most interesting and important story arc, even more than Buffy’s story and especially toward the ending of the series when her story line had so many unanswered questions that surrounded her behavior.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 01 2008 08:39 pm   #43Guest

Writers' Reality: I agree that they didn't seem to cover real life issues on Buffy.

1) Money- Willow and Tara didn't pay rent or get a job to help out. It would have taken two minutes at most to have W/T hand Buffy a rent check ONCE to cover this. (Room and board at a state school is at least $5000/year. W/T would be getting a good deal if they agreed to pay $400/month each.) No one ever suggested having Buffy sell the house and move into an apartment where the rent and expenses would have been much cheaper.

2) Job- They wanted to make a point about Buffy only being able to get a dead end job, but where was Dawn's dead end job? She was 15 and could have gotten an after school job. Fanfic writers at least often cast Buffy as a personal trainer or self defense instructor. Two things she'd be really good at.

3) Father- They painted a good picture of Hank as a dead-beat Dad, especially after Joyce died and he doesn't even answer Buffy's phone calls. But, while Buffy was of age, Dawn was still a minor. It would have been nice if Buffy had a friend who was a private investigator who could track him down and make him pay child support. Wait a moment! She did. They made such a big noise about her father taking Dawn away when it was obvious he didn't want her. (And if he tried, there were a half dozen people who would gladly break his kneecaps.)

Hypocrisy-Members of cliques forgive other members almost any transgression. I stopped reading the comic when Joss retconned Warren back to life. Willow murdered him and doesn't regret it and it doesn't worry any of the others. I won't go over it again, lots of people have pounded the obvious points into the ground. And no, in the comics no one seems much more mature. Dawn had sex with consequences with someone at college and can't talk to anyone about it? She's 19 and can't talk to her own sister about sex?Who ELSE would understand? Buffy's all avoidy, Xander is becoming 'super-cool' and Willow is dea ex-machina.

Angel- AtS was always a bit darker and more adult, but most consequences are paid by everyone but Angel. Buffy forgives him Angelus; He becomes human, doesn't like being weak, gets the day erased and no one's the wiser; He feeds a wine cellar of people to Dru and Darla and doesn't regret it. Most of them were evil lawyers, but there were wait-staff handing out the wine in the cellar too, and Holland's wife was also killed. So, they didn't count, right?; And the whole erase events of Season 4 storyline just infuriated me.

`Varin

Jan 01 2008 08:48 pm   #44nmcil

 "Really, for me, Buffy and the Scoobies were flawed and very self-centered and only rivaled by the SEINFELD characters."

One of the reason that I think tara became such a popular and loved character was that she appears much more as woman filled with love and compassion.  she seemed more like a symbol of the potential for "inner beauty and strength."  Like Oz, who also seemed more like a symbol of intellect and spiritual peace, tara seemed  like a symbol of "The Great Mother" or a potential Bodhisattva.  As symbolism, it made sense that TARA WAS KILLED AND THAT Oz seeks a journey of self-knowledge.  In the Buffyverse of metaphor and heroes journey, there is nothing more important than the journey and life cycle.  The dark and the light along with the inner spiritual growth, for me was represented in Buffy, Spike, Tara and Oz.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 02 2008 07:27 pm   #45Eowyn315

I find it far more likely Spike having a dash of BP then buffy.

Oh, yeah, me too. I have a friend who's bipolar, and I've actually written Spike scenes based on his behavior, and everyone thinks it's so in character for Spike. :)

No one ever suggested having Buffy sell the house and move into an apartment where the rent and expenses would have been much cheaper.

Well, sure. 'Cause if they sold the house, there'd have been nowhere to put all those potentials in season 7! :) Seriously, though, I think that was probably a decision based on set design. That Summers house set was very versatile, and I don't think they wanted to give it up.

Fanfic writers at least often cast Buffy as a personal trainer or self defense instructor.

I've seen those fanfics, and the details don't tend to bother me in reading them, but wouldn't she need to be licensed or certified to do either of those things? I can't imagine they just let anybody teach self-defense (at least, not at a reputable gym). I don't know what's involved in certification, maybe just an application (with a fee), maybe you need to take courses and pass a test. Not that Buffy couldn't do those things (although costs of the courses might hinder her), but it's more effort than fanfic writers make it out to be, I think.

They made such a big noise about her father taking Dawn away when it was obvious he didn't want her.

No... they made a big deal about Social Services taking Dawn away. Social Services would probably have tried to track her father down as the optimal placement, but if that was unsuccessful, she'd most likely have been placed in a foster home. I don't think Hank getting custody was ever a concern, at least not directly.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 02 2008 09:46 pm   #46SpikesKatMac

E, I agree with everything you just said, but I'll add a small argument in regards to the self-defense courses that Buffy could have taught.

Yes, in real life, you probably need some sort of certification in order to teach those kinds of classes.  However, since Sunnydale is the land of denial, Buffy could have gotten away without certification, especially since, by S7, I think her "secret identity" was pretty much a joke to most people.  As such, I doubt anyone would have thought much of her teaching the course, especially if, as the late Nan Dribble portrays it in her excellent "Blood" series, Buffy had been affiliated with the university in some way, targeting co-eds and such.

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Jan 02 2008 10:19 pm   #47Scarlet Ibis

If such a certificate was needed, I'm sure it would be fairly easy to forge them.  After all, Anya has proof of her very existence as an American citizen, born and raised.  Surely Buffy could get one measely paper saying she's certified to teach.  I didn't think you could be a school counselor without a degree of some kind either.  Or at the very least, a college graduate :P  Yeah okay, Robin knew who she really was...but he still had to say something to the Sunnydale Board of Ed of why he was hiring her.

And I agree that there should have been some kind of mention of Willow and or Tara paying Buffy something for rent, or paying something while she was dead, since they were living there.  Making funny shaped pancakes and pulling decorations out of thin air just doesn't cut it.  If Buffy was never resurrected, what, the house would've just gone into foreclosure?  I guess so.  Seems to me Giles should've lectured them on that (as well).

And, for Spike being bi-polar, his personality is pretty stable and consistent season six onward.  I wouldn't classify him as such.  In fact, all of his previous outbursts are limited to his problems with women, and Spike's lovelife is sure to make anyone cranky.  Now that I'm thinking about it some more...I don't think I would say he was bi polar at any given point.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 02 2008 10:44 pm   #48Guest

You don't need a cert at a lot of dohos, but you do need to pass proficiency in that discipline. We have a friend that went from student to teacher at a BJJ school just because he was good. He just taught the levels below his. It's up to the master, as the school is who has to have the cert. If you're going to work outside a dojo, then it differs.

I wouldn't put Spike as extreme as being bi-polar, either. Being passionate about things doesn't put you in the disorder category.

As for Hank, the state of CA would have gone after his ass if he wasn't paying child support, and that's been a fact long before the show existed. If you don't pay what was agreed upon in the custody agreement, they garnish your wages and even threaten jail time. There's a zero tolerance policy on deadbeat dads nowadays, and it's even likely to find that the court is keeping track on if you pay even if the mother doesn't report that you've missed checks. That agreement would have held after Joyce's death until/unless a new one was set up in court between Buffy and her father about Dawn. I'm sure it was in Joyce's will that Hank continue providing compensation if the girls were still minors upon her death.

The problem I have with the lack of consequences, is...if you're going to set a story in the real world, and then just add demons and magic, then your story should still be grounded in the real world. If you're going to defy real world standards, then you have to create a justification for it. Just like if you're going to break the laws of physics with magic, you have to make it logical for the magic to work that way, or people have a hard time accepting it. I find it easier to accept the fantastical if people or things are still rooted in reality - that humans will still act like real humans, for example. Otherwise, you have to put your world into a new universe - another planet, species, or extremely in the future or past. It's just better story telling.

CM

Jan 02 2008 11:53 pm   #49Immortal Beloved

 Spike's lovelife is sure to make anyone cranky.

:lol:  This cracked me up.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 06 2008 07:58 pm   #50nmcil

Immortal Beloved

just want to say how much I like your Anita Blake quote -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 06 2008 10:32 pm   #51Shadow

On the whole "willow/tara paying rent" issue...

WHO paid for all that stuff Willow used to resurrect Buffy?  Cause I'm thinking it sure as heck wasnt Willow... (based on her never paying for stuff from the Magic Box)

Tahlmorra lujhalla mei wiccan, cheysu.
Jan 07 2008 03:45 am   #52JoJoBird

umm Joyce's life insurance?

 

 

Jan 07 2008 07:39 am   #53Guest
01/06/2008 08:45 pm umm Joyce's life insurance?

Okay... but if it was Joyce's life insurance, WHO signed the check/gave authorization.  'Cause Buffy? Dead.  And Dawn?  they didnt tell her.

 

Methinks Willow has a whole lot of 'splainin to do.

Jan 07 2008 12:13 pm   #54JoJoBird

Well since they used up whatever money Joyce left her children anyways, (therse no money there when Buffys resurrected) therse no stretch thinking Willow have used the money for whatever she wanted to, when she wanted to. And i doubt dawn was signing on checks to pay for all of their food/bills they forged and conned sunnydale from the day buffy fell off the tower whatever that meant.

Jan 07 2008 07:27 pm   #55Eowyn315

Okay... but if it was Joyce's life insurance, WHO signed the check/gave authorization.  'Cause Buffy? Dead.  And Dawn?  they didnt tell her.

Presumably, Buffy would've taken care of Joyce's financial affairs (life insurance, her will, etc.) before she died. After Buffy's death, I would imagine that Willow and/or Tara were added to all the Summers' accounts - because someone had to be managing the finances, even if they were managed poorly. They had to be making mortgage payments and paying the bills, otherwise the house would've been foreclosed and all their utilities shut off.

It's also possible that they just used the Buffybot. Since Buffy wasn't legally dead, they could still forge her signature on checks and deposit/withdrawal slips to manage the bank account.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 07 2008 09:38 pm   #56Guest

So to my way of thinking, little miss willow should have repaid everything she spent on her "resurrection supplies"... wanna bet she didnt even think twice about spending someone elses money?

Jan 07 2008 09:41 pm   #57Shadow

oops, above was me... forgot I wasnt logged in.

Tahlmorra lujhalla mei wiccan, cheysu.
Jan 07 2008 10:57 pm   #58Guest

Great discussion!

Back to the original question, I think ultimately there is no logical explanation for Buffy's behavior beyond faulty writing. The show as a whole (with the possible exception of the actors' performances) took a nose dive after season five.  While seasons four and five were full of out-of-character actions for the core group, the arcing story lines of each season held it all together and allowed the audience to suspend disbelief.  It was a fine line, but overall the characters never strayed too far out of character.

Season six began strong, had a high point with the musical, ended with a bang but ultimately was crap in terms of character and story.  Don't misunderstand - I love the show.  Watched every single episode as they aired and I've probably watched the dvds an unhealthy number of times, but I don't lie to myself about much of the last two seasons being crap - six should be retitled the "sex season" and seven was full of so many plot holes and from-left-field plot devices it was nearly painful.  The Buffy character that jumped off the tower in "The Gift" wasn't the same Buffy character for much of the last two seasons.  


Sure, the writers used the being ripped out of heaven thing to create angst but they got lazy and used it as an excuse for lots of titillating behavior they hoped would garner more viewers - why else would Spike and Buffy tear down a house the first time they have sex? Can we say over-the-top? Sex everywhere - even at work?  Buffy was in hell-by-comparison, not  brain damaged or suddenly struck with a succubus curse.

Over and over Buffy showed extreme behavior as a supposed reaction to being alive again but frankly just didn't fly.  At the beginning of season four, when her first college roommate was stealing parts of her soul  Buffy displayed some similar behaviors and I kept waiting for the scene in season six where they discovered she left part of her soul behind in heaven or just something, anything to excuse the abuses and personality she was displaying but it never came.  If we make the assumption Buffy-of-season-six is the same Buffy-of-season-five but with depression (and/or any other psychological disorder) causing her actions then how are her friends actions explained? That is, if it wasn't faulty writing? 

Sure, people mature and change as they age.  At least, that's the norm.  In season six Willow, Xander and Giles all display weird behaviors that served no purpose beyond moving the story along, had nothing to do with maturity or aging and did not relate to the characters they had been (I could argue this was already happening with Xander and Giles in s5 but I'll stick with s6).  Giles abandoned Buffy within hours of learning she had been pulled from heaven.  Say what?  This man stuck around after the Council fired him, stayed when she asked him to start training her again, killed Ben when she couldn't do it but tucked tail and hurried back to England because she needed to stand on her own two feet?  Uh, what?  Being an adult didn't stop her from being the slayer guarding the Hellmouth.  Married with kids, and she'd still be the slayer and in need of a Watcher.  No matter how good her friends were at supporting her they weren't Watchers and they didn't have his book knowledge or education.  Him doing his thing with the old musty books kept them informed and on target for when the world was at risk.  More than once they wouldn't have had a clue about what was happening without Giles, so why was he suddenly obsolete?  *coughplotdevicecough*

Willow toys with Tara's mind.  Huh?  She spent weeks looking for a way to cure Tara's mental injury from Glory, she loves the woman enough to go on a suicide mission against a god and she suddenly thinks its okay to mess with her girl's mind because they had a little fight?  Sorry, not buying it.  Xander leaves Anya at the altar.  Again, what?  The Xander character already had a history of being used as a jack-of-all-trades when it came to story lines - funnyman, the other man, faithful sidekick, silent hero, whipping boy, etc - whatever worked to push the plot along, so I probably shouldn't have been surprised.  Nah.  Still don't buy it.  Xander was many things, but no one could be that stupid.  He knew exactly what Anya was capable of and D'Hoffryn was actually at the wedding.  Xander could be cruel, vindictive and even a little stupid - but not that stupid.  His character wasn't the type to run away - not when Buffy said she only thought of him as a friend, when Cordelia dumped him the first time, when Cordelia dumped him the second time, when his friends decided he was fray-adjacent the stubborn bastard stuck around.  Leaving her at the altar just didn't fit - again, just poor writing.  

And just to toss another point in - Buffy shrugging off Willow's little dabble in demonic sorcery which resulted in Dawn being hurt was hugely out of character.  I don't care if Buffy was screwing a legion of vampires and living in real hell, Buffy died for her sister and threatened to kill anyone who came after Dawn, friends or not, human or not ... and she suddenly doesn't even kick Willow out of the house for for taking Dawn to the equivalent of a magical crack house, or making the girl bleed?  So far out of character the real Buffy wasn't even on the same planet.  No amount of mental anguish would suddenly make her not want to protect Dawn.

If I start on "Seeing Red" and Spike's attack on Buffy I'll never finish this post.  It was the worst bit of contrived dues ex machina I've ever seen (and that includes "Chosen"), and I watch Stargate.

To sum up this ramble - my opinion, no logical explanation of Buffy's abusive behavior beyond bad writing.  Loved the show, hated where the writers took it sometimes.  It seemed like occasionally they became too comfortable in the fact they were writing in a supernatural world and could do anything they liked so they just ignored human nature when it was convenient for the plot.

~ Q

Jan 07 2008 11:41 pm   #59Eowyn315

Nice post, Q. Are you new around here? I agree with a lot of what you said. I think I've argued before that every single person was out of character in season six. 

The only point I'd disagree is Willow. Considering she's used magic to avoid dealing with conflict and emotions before, I thought it was completely in character to try to erase the memory of their fight. Rather than deal with her feelings for Xander in a normal way, she tried to do a "delusting" spell. Rather than confront Oz when he cheated on her, she tried to do a spell to get back at him and Veruca. Rather than work through the pain of breaking up, she tried to do a spell to get rid of it. And, of course, the kicker - rather than accept her friend's death, grieving and moving on like normal people, she decides to resurrect her.

I actually thought they were going down an interesting road with Willow using magic for power and control. The part where she got out of character was when they started that "crack magic" nonsense. We'd never seen Willow with an addictive personality, and we'd never seen magic as an addictive substance.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 08 2008 02:03 am   #60Guest

Thanks. Yep. New. :)

Yeah, I see your point about Willow.  From that perspective she's the exception - though I think it could be argued that instead of messing with the Willow character they toyed with her props - ie turning magic into a drug equivalent, muffled the evidence of her school book brilliance/computer skills and replaced it with magical ability, stopped dressing her like an adult-sized toddler, etc.  

In seasons four and five magic was a tool of empowerment for Willow, and more than once implied there was a component of sexual freedom attached to it - Willow/Tara doing spells together, Xander referring to their spell usage as a euphemism for sex, Willow's magical ability grew in conjunction with her acceptance of her sexuality and Tara's place in her life. Season six, suddenly magic is drugs.  Yet, not for long because they needed Willow to be able to do magic for season seven so magic goes back to being a good thing - all about balance, blah, blah blah.  *snort*  They sort of shot themselves in the foot with that one in s6 and had to fix it so we got to see timid!Willow again at the beginning of s7 - which was hugely annoying.  

I would have been much more impressed if she had retained some of her darker self and struggled with it.  Heck, even a cheesy strip of dark hair left behind and a tendency to say, "Bored, now," would have been easier to stomach than the Kennedy-Amy-Warren plot devices they used to give her back her spine.  Supernatural or not, witch or not, a person doesn't hold enough power to reduce the world to rubble single handedly without holding on to at least a little arrogance.

I had hope for the Buffy character when she finally cried in "Grave," and for a few minutes of the show she seemed more like Buffy from past seasons.  Then they (the writers) had her flinching around Spike in s7 as if his attack of less than a minute in "Seeing Red," was more traumatic than her entire months of dealing with Angelus.  Please don't misunderstand - attempted rape is nothing to make light of, but I found it insulting that it was used as a plot device to send Spike to Africa for his soul (and it seemed like they were trying to manipulate the audience into having more sympathy for a character that hadn't deserved it for much of the season - as if suddenly her slate was wiped clean because she was a victim for half a minute).  Frankly, it's just too serious of a subject to be tossed in like it was and extremely insulting for them to assume the audience was going to buy into it.  I really wish the actors had refused to do the scene, that is if it was possible.  I know nothing about how actors are contracted for their work so maybe it wasn't possible. 

It was hugely out of character for Spike to try and force Buffy and I think the writers were well aware of it, which is why it came off as so contrived. Buffy beat the crap out of Spike repeatedly, without retaliation, treated him like he's worthless, and her behavior was never once addressed.  Spike wasn't blameless in their twisted relationship and he did a great deal of verbal manipulation, but Buffy owned a lion's share of of the blame for how unhealthy it was.  You don't tell a person they can't feel anything real, or they are soulless, evil and unable to love and then turn around and demand they say they love you.  That's sick head games. 

Ignoring for a moment I think the "Seeing Red" scene is forced, out of character and stupidly irresponsible of the writers, Spike reaching his snapping point, attacking her and still managing to be horrified with his own behavior - a state the Buffy character never once seemed to reach outside of her delusions over Katrina - was extremely significant.  Were the writers just too close to the subject matter to see it, or am I off track in thinking they gave Spike a higher morality point?  He's the one that supposed to be soulless and evil, yet he reached for atonement.  If they didn't want the fans to like him so much or want Buffy to go for the supposed bad boy, then why did they give him more self-awareness and more of a conscience?  Again, bad writing.  If Spike came off as a more complex character than the writers intended then they only have themselves to blame.

The writers had lots of opportunity to send Spike off for the soul, but they went for titillation and dramatic angst, jumping on the television bandwagon of more-is-more with the bathroom scene.  Drama just for drama's sake is boring and lazy.  Granted, angst is always more interesting than everyone doing the right thing all the time, but seasons 1-5 proved the writers of BtVS could do better which is why I was so disappointed with s6, disappointed with the characters' actions in the final two seasons and why I chalk up Buffy's behavior as being more a writing issue than a character flaw or motivated by depression/dysthymia/bunnies.

~ Q

Jan 08 2008 02:24 am   #61Eowyn315

Man, you gotta stop this, or people are gonna think I created an alter ego to agree with me. :)

I really wish the actors had refused to do the scene, that is if it was possible.  I know nothing about how actors are contracted for their work so maybe it wasn't possible.

Nope, it wasn't possible. I guarantee JM would've refused if he could. He's said he would never play a rapist, and he'd reject a role that called for it, but he didn't have a choice here, because he was on the show and just had to do whatever the writers handed him. Doing that scene was traumatizing for him (and probably for SMG, too, but she's not nearly as outspoken as James is), and it sounds like it was mishandled from a filming perspective as well as the writing (the actors weren't made to feel comfortable in filming a very difficult scene, to the point where the terror on JM's face isn't acting).

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 08 2008 02:26 am   #62Scarlet Ibis

Q, first of all...you're awesome.

Second--

Ignoring for a moment I think the "Seeing Red" scene is forced, out of character and stupidly irresponsible of the writers, Spike reaching his snapping point, attacking her and still managing to be horrified with his own behavior - a state the Buffy character never once seemed to reach outside of her delusions over Katrina - was extremely significant.  Were the writers just too close to the subject matter to see it, or am I off track in thinking they gave Spike a higher morality point?  He's the one that supposed to be soulless and evil, yet he reached for atonement.  If they didn't want the fans to like him so much or want Buffy to go for the supposed bad boy, then why did they give him more self-awareness and more of a conscience?  Again, bad writing.  If Spike came off as a more complex character than the writers intended then they only have themselves to blame.

Now that you mention it, I think it was an accident and a huge error in judgment on their part.  The Buffy acting like the helpless little victim was poor writing, but Spike's response, the confusion, desperation, and the guilt, I think was fitting.  I read somewhere that Buffy's heroic era ended in s5, and that six and seven was more about Spike's journey to redemption.  The fact that he stayed around to fight the good fight, soulless, put him leagues above Angel, and then, we see him as the real hero at the end of the series, and he goes out in a literal flame of glory.  Joss has said that he wrote s5 as the end of Buffy, and perhaps, it truly was.  The seasons following, as problematic as they were, were more about Spike.  Or, that is, if you ignore the bulk of it for the Spike parts, it's more interesting to watch.  Can't say if it was pre planned (though I'm sure it was merely James' acting), but thank you for pointing out that there was in fact remorse, when we never saw any on Buffy's part in that regard.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 08 2008 03:24 am   #63Caro Mio

Well, everybody was checking with Sarah that she was okay with filming that scene, because she was the woman and "victim", but no one asked James. I think Sarah would have had the power to refuse that scene, but she didn't say no. I don't know what might have happened if James refused, but I don't think he would go that far, because he would see it as unprofessional. He'll never take a rapist role again, never something that is traumatic to a woman or child character, but I think as part of BTVS, he just went along like a good trouper.......but man, it hurts me to hear how awful doing that scene was for him. That's a scene you NEVER want to be Method for.

Another thing, which cracked me up - on the Special Features add-on disc that came with the Seven Seasons box set, there's a gathering of some of the cast and the writers, including Joss and Marti. They were talking about the musical, and how Joss approached them, etc, and how involved Joss was with stuff as he phased out his control of daily stuff on the show, and Marti goes "Oh, before I ruined Season Six?"  I almost fell off the sofa! :LOL:

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Jan 08 2008 03:34 am   #64Caro Mio

Q, the writers ended up with a real quandary with Spike, because his story just races toward redemption, and yet they always insist that they couldn't give him acceptance without the soul because it would erode Angel's standing as a vampire with one. I think part of the thing they couldn't account for is that James just radiates the feelings through his entire face - he's so expressive, that Spike comes across with soul even when he doesn't have one. And I don't think it's something James could have just turned off, either.

And yeah, it's very clear that they never watched the show from our perspective, though they couldn't do it unless in hindsight because they always had to write and film ahead of us. The season wraps a month before we see the finale. Part of the problem is there just wasn't time to consider the words, or go back and film again if a director screwed up the tone. Partly the problem you have when it's more than one writer in the kitchen, and the head cheese doesn't have the entire series outlined in his head - though of course, this is extremely rare, anyway. And said head cheese, while approving every episode, still wasn't hands-on anymore because he had new toys.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Jan 08 2008 03:35 am   #65Scarlet Ibis

If you think about it, if SMG knew that her character was becoming sucky and slowly getting flushed down the toilet, then such a scene would appear redemtion-y for her, wouldn't it?  Why would she pass it up (though for most, it totally didn't work, but it was worth a shot).

As for Maudlin Noxious ruining season six, did anyone say "Yeah, you sure did royally fuck that up, didn't you?" in a serious tone?  I'd probably laugh aloud if I saw that :P

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 08 2008 03:44 am   #66Spikez_tart

Seeing Red - I know we've discussed this to death, and I hated that scene and I thought it was out of character, but if the dumb butt writers were going to go with it, they should have gone all the way and had Spike rape Buffy for real instead of playing around.  Yes, it's sick, I know. 

I'm reminded of the way movies were made under the Code where the director would signal you that things were happening that you didn't actually see. Adults would get the message and little kids wouldn't have the foggiest

idea what was supposed to be going on.   I think we're supposed to think that it really happened.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 08 2008 03:52 am   #67Caro Mio

Well, there was nodding and chuckling after she said it, but no one did that, Scarlet. :D

Oh, you're probably right about how it would seem to SMG, yeah, because it was supposed to put us back on Buffy's side. It's interesting that she disapproved so much, mentioned it, and still kept filming those scenes. I mean, yeah, she has a contract, but also, she was *Buffy*. If she walked, that's the end of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Everybody knew she was unhappy with the direction Buffy was going, and yet she never threatened to walk? Cuz you're never so locked in that you can't quit if you want to, not as the star. I dunno.....if it'd been me, I probably would have called in "sick" a few times or somethin'.....I'm just too vocal when I think someone has their head up their ass. :D

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Jan 08 2008 03:58 am   #68Immortal Beloved

Buffy acting like the helpless little victim was poor writing 

I'm not a writer, so I'm not gonna espouse what I think is good or poor writing as I don't have that viewpoint; I'll leave that up to you guys.  BUT, I can say, from a viewer's perspective, Buffy acting like a helpless victim made the kind of sense that doesn't.  Buffy was THE SLAYER.  Even if she was emotionally weak during Season Sex (I always call it that, Q :-)  ), she was still physically strong.  She could--and did--beat the crap out of Spike.  She may have hurt her back, but it is completely unlike Buffy to forget to fight back, no matter what her state of mind is.  She's a fighter, a killer.  She always puts up a fight.  

Yeah, she does stop Spike and says she should have stopped him a long time ago.  Who initiated the sex in the abandoned house?  Who initiated the sex when she was invisible?  Who went to Spike and asked him to tell her he loved her, wanted her?  B-U-F-F-Y.  She didn't stop Spike previously because she didn't want to stop him.  She did want to stop him in the bathroom, so she did so.  She was a victim in the sense that she was on the receiving end of an attempted rape.  But she was never helpless.

Oh, and E, I read that article that you linked to on another thread.  I find what James said about Spike in Season Sex interesting:

"I became that unhealthy boyfriend that many girls have in their life, the bad boy who might be really sexy and dangerous and gets their sexual stuff firing, but the girls and up getting burned by it. That storyline played out so dramatically, I thought that the character probably should be killed off. I didn’t know if he’d be redeemable after season six."

I've heard him say similar things in interviews (poor baby :-(  )  I'm sure he's looking at it from the attempted rape perspective, and I agree that Spike was far from blameless in their destructive relationship; however, I'd have to say that, prior to "Seeing Red," the blame scale was tilted heavily on Buffy's side.  Rape is a heinous crime.  That said, I can't exactly say that beating the ever loving shit out of your not-your-boyfriend in an alley is the act of an innocent angel.  I'm not saying it's equivalent to an attempted rape, far from it.  But Spike had done nothing up until the alley scene that would have warranted that kind of beating.  He was also a victim.

Post Script: Just checked my word of the day on the OED website.  Guess what it was: victim, "one who suffers severely in body or property through cruel or oppressive treatment."  Sounds like Buffy's treatment of Spike to me.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 08 2008 03:58 am   #69Scarlet Ibis

I think she definitely could've stopped if she really through her weight around.  That would've been the most appropriate time for her to have been a bitch, but she didn't do it.  Bottom line, no matter how crappy that season was, it would've have gone on, and no one would've been paid if SMG wasn't on board.  I think she should've taken a stand for her character, for her fans, and eventually, for JM's emotional trauma for SR.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 08 2008 11:33 am   #70nmcil

 

The lack of connection between the action of Dead Things, Seeing Red and Beneath You with regards to Buffy’s conduct and emotional trauma, has always, for me, been a flaw the last two seasons. The lack of consequences from actions, either from a moral position or for the mental breakdown to their main character was left as part of the story, but never explored. The following episode should have been about the psychological state of Buffy and her reactions to the alley scene. If the writers put out such a powerful episode as Dead Things they really needed to come back and address the moral and emotional implication of what took place in that alley. It was silly to present The Birthday Party and have Buffy and Spike acting as if the alley scene never happened or was totally insignificant.

Later we have Buffy taking such a high ground position in Beneath You with Spike, but because the writers left Dead Things so unsettled I found I was not as sympathetic to Buffy as I should have been. The action and moral consequences between Buffy’s violence in Dead Things and Spike’s violence in Seeing Red I think was important but I they were simply ignored and worked against the story.

I decided to watch some of season 4 while working tonight – and for all the sex that is attributed in season 6 – I don’t think that Buffy was shown as a sexual partner as much as was with Riley. And for all the romance and love that she is suppose to be feeling, for some reason it was painful to watch her in this relationship. Her Mr. Normal love relationship did not feel like it was real – even for all the affection they show between the couple, it never quite feels like true. Does anyone else get this impression, or is it simply my reactions to never liking Riley?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2008 12:17 pm   #71nmcil

One thing that I think we need to remember is that irrespective of how the viewers responded to the attempted rape scene - for a professional actor that scene would have been an extremely difficult but at the same time extremely gratifying from the perspective of the craft.  I have been watching Buffy again for several weeks now while doing my work also doing a lot of digital work from DVDcaps - and the work those two did in that scene is very fine.  The emotional content that comes out, at least for me it did, was more about dreadful and bitter disappointment in spike and of a  woman so very very tired of being the slayer and how that makes her live her life.  Spike, for me, comes off like a man that has been so damaged emotionally and also in utter desperation and fear that he does literally lose his mind and all control.   Even while I was seeing what is suppose to be an attempt at rape, emotionally all I see is their terrible and tragic history.   And how very sad that this poor young woman even at this point is still seeing everything about their relationship in the context of "self-centered" - the first thing that comes to her mind is that Spike is working a spell on her - never occurs to her that, as Spike said, that he wanted and needed something for himself.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2008 12:33 pm   #72nmcil

I don't think the Spike character could ever have survived an actual rape  -

How could they bring him back from that?  Suppose the writers had done the scene with his severe beating of buffy?  would the viewers been expected to forgive and forget like the alley scene was treated?  An interesting question.  Spike going through an emotional melt-down and beating Buffy would be equally dreadful, maybe even more.  With the attempted rape, we have all their dysfunctional sex as history, but with what might be considered a less heinous crime; a beating, it might have been even more unforgivable.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2008 05:38 pm   #73Guest

Well, if they didn't have her heavily physically harmed from Angelus, and brought Angel back, then they're not going to bring Spike back if he harmed Buffy like that, either. They at least knew that full-on trauma couldn't be excused for Buffy's love interest, no matter what the device. And the others wouldn't have hesitated to stake Spike if he'd been able to go all the way, then come back. It just would have been too much. He could go elsewhere with the soul, but he couldn't come back to Sunnydale.

RE: Riley....I dunno, I never really had a problem seeing them as a couple. I think it's as real as you normally get with two people only together for months. But I don't dislike Riley, either.

CM

Jan 08 2008 06:40 pm   #74Scarlet Ibis

Buffy gets off easy enough for these same crimes.  Well, not rape so much as "indecent liberties," but still, and she can't even hide behind the whole "soulless demon" thing.  Do you suppose Buffy gets this double standard for being a woman, or for just being the main character of the show?

And Buffy's choice of human boyfriends/lovers always irked me in one form or another-- Parker looked like Xander on crack, and Riley was the most boring, dull version of Angel I've ever seen (cept for maybe Groo, but I still think he was more tolerable to look at).  And he was spineless, mindless, and prejudice.  Nope, didn't like him.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 08 2008 07:53 pm   #75nmcil

I do think that Buffy was allowed the Double Standard for her violence primarily because she is the series star character and then somewhat because she is female.  Not only Buffy but Xander and Willow commit murder and manslaughter.  the writers never have them suffer any severe punishment for their crimes.   Of course Spike nor Angel are never punished for all the thousands of people they murder either,. the show made such a huge factor of a soul as a vital element for conscience and line of demarcation, particularly for Buffy and Giles as figures of enforcement and teachings, in their treatment and understanding of Spike that the double standards became a glaring  problem for the viewers.  Anya also becomes another example of how the main characters were given leniency.  In her case as a returned vegence demon another life & soul  must be paid and exchange for actions - Xander and Willow both have people killed by their choices and are not held up for punsihment.  But to be fair, Spike is also given special treatment as an agent of The First by Buffy, as does Angel.  But with the case of Spike, many of the viewers accepted his killings as acts committed under control of another being - NOT BY CHOICE.

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2008 07:56 pm   #76nmcil

can someone give me some advice on the format for the forum section - for some reason the text formatting is forcing me to horizontal scroll now - I never use to have the problem.  Is anyone else having this problem?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 08 2008 09:04 pm   #77Caro Mio

It just does this sometimes, at random.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Jan 08 2008 11:31 pm   #78Scarlet Ibis

Well to be fair, I meant strictly with the violence doled out by Buffy in s6, and not in regards to the other characters.  However, when one doesn't have free will, then that doesn't really count, or is deemed punishable.  Even in our courts, for the most part--hard to hold someone accountable if they don't know what they're doing.

And Angel, well, he did go to hell for...was it 100 years?  And having a conscience shoved into him couldn't have been very much fun either.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 08 2008 11:31 pm   #79Eowyn315

It's not random... it's because one of the posts is stretching the page because of an unbroken line. Usually, it's a link, but in this case it's the guest post that has the quote with the big gray box.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 09 2008 12:37 am   #80SpikesKatMac

 Yet, not for long because they needed Willow to be able to do magic for season seven so magic goes back to being a good thing - all about balance, blah, blah blah.  *snort*

:lol:  Awesome, Q.  Couldn't have said it better myself!

In regards to accountability, Buffy wasn't the only one who was never held responsible for her actions; while her horrible treatment of Spike has me calling for the red hot pokers and Mozart, every one of the Scoobies did things to be ashamed of (not just Spike, which I covered in an earlier rant!).  What about Xander summoning Sweet and killing innocent people?  Or trying to rape Buffy in Season 1?  What about Willow skinning Warren, and then trying to destroy the world?  I'm sorry, but a all expenses paid trip to England doesn't really strike me as a way to prevent people from repeating past mistakes, like turning the entire earth into a cinder!  

Kinda makes me wonder what kind of message the writers were trying to send to the audience;  ok, it's not be responsible, it's not actions have consequences, and it's obviously not be kind to everyone, because as a hero, you're supposed to be the embodiment of all things good, etc etc.  Obviously the message the writers were trying to send was something along the lines of "We've never actually watched the shows or read the transcripts after the episodes were made; we're just kinda making this up as we go along, and Joss is at Disneyland, so hey, this sounds like a good time to make Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles and/or Spike act completely out of character for no good reason, let's do that!"

So completely frustrating as a fan of the show!  *head slams on desk*

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Jan 09 2008 01:02 am   #81Eowyn315

Kinda makes me wonder what kind of message the writers were trying to send to the audience;  ok, it's not be responsible, it's not actions have consequences, and it's obviously not be kind to everyone, because as a hero, you're supposed to be the embodiment of all things good, etc etc.

Well, no, because this is Buffy, not Sesame Street. They're not out to teach us morals or proper behavior. They're out to entertain us, primarily, and to explore the human condition in the process.

In real life, people are not always kind or good or responsible. And sometimes actions don't have consequences, even when they ought to. It's all part of life not being fair.

The message of season six is that life is hard and most of the time, people screw up. I think that message came through loud and clear. (Of course, I don't think the writers imagined themselves as the screw-ups. :))

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 09 2008 01:19 am   #82SpikesKatMac

Well, no, because this is Buffy, not Sesame Street. They're not out to teach us morals or proper behavior. They're out to entertain us, primarily, and to explore the human condition in the process

I totally agree; I wouldn't want to be taught the morals that these characters have.  In some cases, the heroes were more flawed than the villains.  But the point I was trying to make was the writers were so caught up in the angst they were creating for the characters and the whole "let's try to make this as dark and depressing a season as we can" thing they had going, that they forgot one very important fact:  Buffy (both the show and the character) are supposed to be examples of what to do/how to act.  The entire premise of the show was this heroic person, who yes, was flawed, god knows.  It was her flaws, and her weaknesses, and the mistakes she made (and the mistakes made by the other characters) that made them human, made them believable, and made us love them.  But Buffy (and her friends) did the right thing; no matter how hard or how painful it was, they did the right thing, and that was what made them heroes.  I'm trying to think of one person who did the right thing in S6, and I'm drawing a blank.

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Jan 09 2008 01:52 am   #83Immortal Beloved

Hmm...The idea of having Buffy suffer consequences for her actions would have made a great Season 7.  Or, hell, even one episode would have been nice :-P  

It's not just her mistreatment of Spike.  She neglects Dawn, not when she's working to put a roof over Dawn's head, but when she's off boffing Spike and wallowing in her own self-pity.  She doesn't protect Dawn against Willow, perhaps because she doesn't see that Willow has a problem, but Buffy was at fault in not paying close enough attention to Dawn's home environment. Buffy wasn't responsible for Willow; she was an adult who ran her own life.  But Dawn was Buffy's responsibility.  She accepted the responsibility by being Dawn's guardian.  When you are responsible for another human being, you need to take it seriously.  If you aren't capable of doing it properly--say, you came back from the dead and ain't coping--then you at least need to be adult enough to ask for help or give the responsibility to someone else.  She's doing okay by Season 7, but it would have been nice to see some remorse or paying consequences on Buffy's part.  It would have helped Buffy develop both moral character and as a character.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 09 2008 01:56 am   #84Guest

"The message of season six is that life is hard and most of the time, people screw up.  I think that message come through loud and clear (Of course, I don't think the writers imagined themselves as the screw-ups)."

*laugh*

That's perfect.  Probably the very best explanation for season six ever.

~ Q

Jan 09 2008 02:07 am   #85nmcil

for all the inconsistencies and plot devices in Season Six - I still join the smaller crowd of viewers that really loved this season - Maybe I am just a silly old maudlin lady, but this season and most of Season 7 were the two that I had the strongest emotional connection with -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2008 02:16 am   #86Eowyn315

But Buffy (and her friends) did the right thing; no matter how hard or how painful it was, they did the right thing, and that was what made them heroes.

Well, that's stretching it. I can think of plenty of times when they didn't do the right thing, as early as season 1 (doesn't everyone like to castrate Xander for "The Pack"?). But isn't a big chunk of Buffy's angst in her relationships with her friends that they hold her to a higher standard because she's a "hero"? Aren't you doing the same thing by expecting them to always do the right thing because they're heroes? 

When it comes down to it, yes, Buffy has super powers, yes, she has a calling, but she is just a girl. As Anya points out, she wasn't chosen because she was better than everyone else. When it comes to strength of character, she's only human. She makes mistakes. And that goes double for the rest of them, because they're even more human than Buffy.

I agree, having an entire season where everyone is depressed and doing the wrong thing all at the same time was too much. But I don't fault the intent behind the message.

I'm trying to think of one person who did the right thing in S6, and I'm drawing a blank.

Giles. I think skipping season six was a damn good idea. :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 09 2008 02:19 am   #87nmcil

any reference that make to punishment for crime and a characters actions are viewed as punishment working within the human world .  It is true that Angel spends 100 years in hell, but in his connection and relationship with the Hero Series Star he does not have to suffer punishment for his acts as Angel.  And IMO, their is not logical basis for the theory that Angel and Angelus are not connected - if they are not connected, then why would Angel suffer any guilt for his life as Angelus?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2008 02:22 am   #88Quark

So what have we decided?  No logical explanation for Buffy's behavior? Bunnies did it?  Writer's cramp?  Or is it merely up to the viewer and the rest is just speculation?

~ Q

~ Q
Jan 09 2008 02:30 am   #89Eowyn315

I don't think we all need to come to the same conclusion. (If we did, Q, we'd be here for a loooong time.) I think there's a definite basis for saying the writers screwed up, but that's not necessarily a satisfying answer. For those of us who want to explore her behavior as a person, and not as a product of writers, there are plenty of symptoms for at least three different disorders. :)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 09 2008 02:39 am   #90SpikesKatMac

 Giles. I think skipping season six was a damn good idea. :)

I'll totally agree with you on that one, E! 

But isn't a big chunk of Buffy's angst in her relationships with her friends that they hold her to a higher standard because she's a "hero"?

I'm not sure about that; it's not like Willow and Xander ever say to Buffy "Well, you should know what to do, you're the Slayer!"  In fact, the only time Buffy's leadership/Slayer skills are ever really called into question are in S7, when they throw her out of the house (totally unfair, if you ask me).  I think Xander has Buffy on a pedestal b/c she's his dream girl; and to Willow, Buffy is the cool kid who actually lowers herself to speak to the geek.  I think the majority of Buffy's angst stems from her fear of abandonment; she's scared to disagree with or disappoint her friends, for fear they'll leave her.

A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
Jan 09 2008 02:43 am   #91nmcil

 I'm trying to think of one person who did the right thing in S6, and I'm drawing a blank.

Tara is the one character that I can think of  as having stayed within character and came off as generally a very good person -

One of the things that many viewers felt was a flaw with season 6 is the darkness of the season which was played for dramatic effect - but I had a strong response from  all the strong angst filled drama of that season. 

With regards to "teaching morals" - I find it very difficult to separate the issue of morality and socio-political perspective from the series - This was what was the most exciting and vital part of the series and why I came back every week and continue to connect with the series online.  If have never had this depth of connection with any television program ever - While special programing of great threatre of vital historical significance has effected how I view an individual program - The Buffyverse is the only series that I really kept in my head after the weekly episode.  Anything that was primarily for entertainment had very little connection with my life - The Buffyverse and Angel always did.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2008 02:52 am   #92Quark

And here I was hoping bunnies did it. :)

Seriously though, I like the show, and like Buffy as a character.  If I let myself acknowledge her behavior as something other than a writer's flaw I really start to dislike her, which messes with my enjoyment of the show.

So, me, I'm gonna just live in denial land and blame the writers. :)

I suppose now would be a bad time to confess that as it aired (right up to "Dead Things") I thought much of season six was the best Buffy to date and felt that way until I bought the previous seasons on dvd and watched all the episodes again.  That coupled with "Older and Far Away" almost completely ignoring "Dead Things" (aside from Spike's bruises) is what turned me off the season and pushed me into reevaluating Buffy's behavior.

~ Q


~ Q
Jan 09 2008 03:27 am   #93Immortal Beloved

for all the inconsistencies and plot devices in Season Six - I still join the smaller crowd of viewers that really loved this season 

Then, we can be together :-)  Season Sex is actually my favorite season.  I'm not a writer, so I don't tend to look at it from the writers-botched-it perspective.  Maybe everyone acted out of character.  Maybe the writers tried to deliver a message and failed miserably.  But--I say this with the utmost respect for those of you who do deem those things  important*--I don't care.  Again, my own opinion.  My concern is not the intent behind the work, but the actual result of it.  I recognize the fact that, sometimes, things just don't turn out the way we intend them.  After all, we all know which road is paved with good intentions.

I'm sure it has a lot to do with the Spuffy, but there's just something about Season Six that makes me think.  I've always been fascinated with the human (and not-so-human) mind and human behavior and the ways people interact and react with others.  Figuring out what makes people tick really floats my boat.  I love looking at flaws and foibles and the general screwed-up crap of life.  It’s raw, and it’s real.  Well, as real a supernatural show with vampires and dimensions without shrimp can be :-P  And, as we have all exhibited here, Season Six is rife with analyze-y material. 

*If anyone is typing a post that reads, “IB disrespected my opinion,” please re-read this part ;-)

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 09 2008 03:31 am   #94Eowyn315

Tara is the one character that I can think of  as having stayed within character and came off as generally a very good person

Nah, even Tara had her flaws. She probably stayed in character, but the way she handled Willow's magic issues (letting Willow walk all over her until it was too late to do anything but walk away instead of having a stronger hand and trying to keep Willow under control) isn't what I'd call "doing the right thing."

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 09 2008 04:27 am   #95Scarlet Ibis

I don't think anyone in s6 did the right thing.  Spike and Giles did try, but went about it in an incredibly wrong way.  Giles should have stayed--for they all needed parental guidance of some kind, and then Spike could have went to Giles for help with Buffy, cause let's face it--none of her other friends were in the position or in the mindset, rather, to do so.  Too much was swept under the rug.

I feel that...Buffy often power tripped, and this was going on *way* before she was resurrected.  I don't think that Willow wasn't the only one to abuse power in season sex.  Addiction, and the need to control others/and or the things around you was a big thing for both of them that season, and I feel so...silly to have missed this before.  I think bad writing attributed to a huge part of her (Buffy's) poor behavior, but I also feel that at the end of the day, she wanted control over something, more importanly, *someone*, and she knew without a shadow of a doubt she could get it from Spike, and that in some shape or form, he'd be powerless to stop her.  Why not stake Spike after "Out of My Mind," when he proved that he could potentially still be a threat if he wished it so?  Cause you can't beat up a pile of dust.

Oh, and Buffy *totally* made it up to Dawn for all that neglect--remember the oodles of waffles and/or pancakes she made for her that one time?  *scoff*

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 09 2008 07:40 pm   #96nmcil

 stronger hand and trying to keep Willow under control) isn't what I'd call "doing the right thing."

it may not have been the right thing, but it was so in character and so completely reflects the real life dynamics of people and families involved with loved ones consumed in an addiction cycle. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 09 2008 07:51 pm   #97nmcil

 "Season Sex is actually my favorite season.  I'm not a writer, so I don't tend to look at it from the writers-botched-it perspective"

I also have Season Six as my favorite - and my least favorite season is the fourth.  While season four has a great theme with the Iniative and Adam,  I have a very difficult time seeing Riley and Buffy as a couple.  I see Buffy's relationship with Riley as very disturbing and painful to watch.  I almost feel like I'm looking at some tragic young woman caught in the dreamscape mirror world trying so hard to take that dream and force in through the mirror and make it all come to a "happy ever after Ending."

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 26 2008 04:51 pm   #98SpikeHot
But isn't a big chunk of Buffy's angst in her relationships with her friends that they hold her to a higher standard because she's a "hero"?

I never believed that. I hear some fans saying it and read it in Spike/Buffy stories, but I don't believe it. While Xander and Willow admire Buffy, they don't
always expect her to be right or do the right thing. Yes, she's Xander's hero, yes, she's Willow's cool friend, but when Buffy is down, they don't expect her to get up
on her own and save the day. They're the ones who get her back on her feet. They're not perfect, and they don't seem to expect Buffy to be.

To me, it's Tara who holds Willow to a higher standard, to her, Willow is Miss Do No Wrong, and that helped in the downfall of Willow. Willow needed a strong lover, who's
not afraid to stand up to her, not some weak follower.
Jan 26 2008 06:34 pm   #99nmcil

I have lived in a family with an addicted loved one - all the "take a strong hand" did very little for the situation and for turning the addict away from what they saw as their needs -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.