BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

After the Fall

Dec 26 2007 07:57 am   #1Nika

Did anyone read the second issue of After the Fall? I was reading some reviews and some Spike fans are saying they find it hard to care for him in issue 2.

"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Dec 26 2007 12:20 pm   #2Sotia

************SPOILER FOR ANGEL 6:2**************************


I read it and it seems like Spike doesn't care about anything but a harem he's found to be his own personal Heaven in the Hell LA has plunged into. He gets on Angel's case and seems to be very close w/ a girl and w/ Ylliria (I just know I misspelled this!!!). 

I think, however, that it's too early to be passing judgment on him. Firstly because the Heaven/harem thing seemed a bit suspicious and second because Spike has weird coping mechanisms... I mean lays there drinking, like he has no care in the world, talking about achievements (that may or not have been his) still, the slightest provocation from Angel and his anger comes forth. 

I believe, therefore, that he's just trying to convince himself that everything is OK, and he'll be back to his adorable, snarky, decidedly heroic self in a couple of issues. I mean, we were promised he'd be treated right by the creators of the comic! If not, I know I'm gonna stop reading!

Hope I made some sense and didn't ramble on too much!

What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Dec 26 2007 07:55 pm   #3Dihcar

It's a good series, SPOILER

SPOILER

 

 

 

In issue 2 we finally see Spike, yes it's a pretty lame enterance, and to the casual observer Spike seems to have totally regressed back as a character.  Except that there are clues that there is a reason why he has become as he is.  Every member has suffered.

Angel is responsible for thousends of deaths, bringing LA to hell.  Wesley died and because he was at W&H, he is now like how Lilah and Holland were.  Gunn was turned, still believes himself to be a champion altough his actions say otherwise.  Spike seemed to have been a prisoner for a while, that and on top of helping LA to hell, seems to have weighed heavily on his soul. 

The thing about Spike is that he wanted to save the world and was willing to give his life for it.  He didn't count on Angel's plan backfiring and killing all those innocent people.  Plus he seems to be under some kind of influence and can't fight for shit, some have suggested that it's because of the demon-brew he's drinking, others the women or in praticular Spider, he also mentions of being a prisoner for a while.  Being helpless to fight back and help the people would make anyone bitter.

Spike/Fray=The future
Dec 27 2007 03:37 am   #4Guest

Then again he might be the "inside man" to fight back!  This particular writing team (without Joss) really did justice to Spike in Spike Asylum and Auld Lang Syne and they hinted that all is not as it seems.  I can see Spike playing double agent for the greater good.  We'll have to see.  I certainly have more hope for my Spike in THESE hands than the Buffy S8 crew where he and Angel were reduced to just Buffy's missed good sex!

Kathleen

Dec 27 2007 03:38 am   #5Guest

grumble grumble...not signed on here...sorry...that last one was Pfeifferpack (Kathleen)

Dec 27 2007 05:16 am   #6Dihcar

""Then again he might be the "inside man" to fight back!  This particular writing team (without Joss) really did justice to Spike in Spike Asylum and Auld Lang Syne and they hinted that all is not as it seems.  I can see Spike playing double agent for the greater good.  We'll have to see.  I certainly have more hope for my Spike in THESE hands than the Buffy S8 crew where he and Angel were reduced to just Buffy's missed good sex!""

The writer behind this is mostly Brian Lynch with general planning  by Joss and him.  Brian also did Spike:Asylum and Spike:Shadow Puppets, both of which were well received by Spike fans.  The writer of Auld Lang Syne was Scott Tipton, i felt he failed when writing a Spike/Angel team-up, which is where most writers seem to fail, too much favoring of Angel at the cost of Spike.  I hope this doesn't happen in After the fall. 

Spike/Fray=The future
Dec 27 2007 11:42 pm   #7Eowyn315

Just read it, and I think maybe it's hard to care about Spike because the scene is pretty much from Angel's perspective. We don't get any insight on Spike's situation outside of the dialogue (like the "voiceover" that Angel does for most of the issue), so we really don't know what Spike's thinking or anything about the background on how Spike got here from the alley.

There are certainly enough clues there to indicate that it's not as cut and dried as Angel perhaps would like it to be. I think it'd be really interesting to see Spike and Angel on opposite sides here, but where neither of them is a villain. Angel's attempt to be a hero did actually turn out really badly, and it wouldn't surprise me if all the "Spike's going to change sides" rumors turn out to be pointing to Spike as the one who holds Angel accountable for sending them all to hell.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 18 2008 01:56 am   #8Nika
*SPOILERS FOR ISSUE 3*

Apparently Angel is not a vampire anymore. He still has supernatural strength, so he might not be human, but he is no longer a vampire. I hope that doesn't mean he and Buffy are going to go rushing into each other's arms, but I don't think Joss would allow that cause he wanted both Spike and Angel to be used rarely in the season 8 comics.

Plus, I also heard that he told fans that while Season 8 for Buffy is canon, Angel: After the Fall doesn't have to be.

Also, Spike is protecting the humans, and is in some sort of fighting team with Conner. Angel's in a bit of a tiff about that.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Jan 18 2008 02:23 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

As for the whole "Spike switching sides" thing, I read the letters in the back, and it's alluded that Spike will attempt to be a lord, or something like that, because there are too many opprotunities for him to pass up.  However, if he's working with Connor and savind people at night, chances are it'll just be a ruse, and more than likely a way to replace his fountain of blood that was destoryed in this lates issue.

Also, isn't this occuring almost immediately after "Not Fade Away" whereas the season 8 comics took a year jump into the future or something like that?  Or did that year not mentioned simply occur during Angel's s5?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 18 2008 03:07 am   #10Eowyn315
isn't this occuring almost immediately after "Not Fade Away" whereas the season 8 comics took a year jump into the future or something like that?

It's not "immediately," since Brian Lynch has mentioned there will be an issue (or possibly two-parter) called "First Night," which is the immediate aftermath. But unlike season 8, which is about 18 months after "Chosen," "After the Fall" takes place relatively soon after "Not Fade Away" (I'd say within weeks).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 18 2008 04:36 am   #11nmcil
"It's not "immediately," since Brian Lynch has mentioned there will be an issue (or possibly two-parter) called "First Night," which is the immediate aftermath. But unlike season 8, which is about 18 months after "Chosen," "After the Fall" takes place relatively soon after "Not Fade Away" (I'd say within weeks)."

Gunn mentions a 2 month time period so maybe this is the time period -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 18 2008 07:20 am   #12PrettyGirlBPD
*SPOILERS FOR ISSUE 3*

That letters page definitely alluded to Spike switching sides.  I'm hoping that the opportunity he can't pass up involves horning in on that challenge Angel so stupidly issued to all the lords of LA.  I had a lot of trouble accepting the Issue 2 Spike, and I was glad to see it was mostly just a ruse, but I'm not sure how I'd deal if they actually had him switch sides.

Like everyone else, I get the impression that this isn't more than a few months later because I doubt there'd be many humans left to save if it had been much longer.

As far as Angel not being a vampire anymore, I was completely shocked!  I may have expected it if they had won but he got LA sucked into hell!  But no worries, he can't go running to Buffy!  The letters page made it very clear that Buffy will not be helping and she couldn't even if she wanted to because they are completely isolated in this hell dimension.  Besides, when Darkhorse kept BtVS and sold the rights to the AtS comics it made it near impossible for the characters and places of either to be mentioned much less appear in each other's books.  They may be able to work around that slightly out of respect for Joss (such as the Angel/Spike appearance in Buffy S8) but for the most part they'll be stuck in their own books.  That would be the reason for the Buffy letters page apology by Darkhorse!
Jan 18 2008 06:29 pm   #13nmcil
Is there a site you recommend for discussions for After The Fall  and Buffy Season 8 - Since this site is dedicated to Spuffy owners might not want to Comic Book thread -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 18 2008 07:22 pm   #14Nika
You can probably discuss it on Cold Dead Seed, they've already got threads for the first two issues of After The Fall.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Jan 19 2008 01:00 am   #15Eowyn315
Since this site is dedicated to Spuffy owners might not want to Comic Book thread

I'm sure people would have no problem with a comic discussion thread on this site, Spuffy or not. We discuss plenty of topics non-Spuffy related. We've had comic threads in the past, but it just seemed like there weren't enough people reading them on this site to prolong discussion.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 03:32 am   #16Guest
According to Brian Lynch's latest podcast on After the Fall Angel is human, something I'm sure the Bangel lovers are partying over.

Jan 25 2008 03:36 am   #17goldenusagi
Whether he has or hasn't turned human, I never understood why Angel was so gung-ho about the whole Shanshu thing.  Especially since he went to great lengths to give up his humanity in I Will Remember You.  Then just because it's a reward, he decides it'd be great to have?
Jan 25 2008 03:43 am   #18Nika
Maybe. I never understood that either. Why does he want to be human so badly, when he already gave it up?

And as for anything happening with Angel and Buffy like the Bangels are all rooting for, Brian has said many times Buffy is not going to crossover in After the Fall, and I doubt if Angel or Spike go to the BTVS comics after After the Fall, Joss is going to resolve Bangel or Spuffy.

Hmmm, now I'm wondering if Joss or Brian is going to plan to make Spike human to or are they going to keep him a vamp.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Jan 25 2008 03:44 am   #19Scarlet Ibis
It's not just becoming human--with the Shanshu prophecy, essentially, his slate would be wiped clean.  He'd be human, and I presume, not remembering all the naughty little things he did.  I don't think in "After the Fall" he shanshued, but they do say he's human.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 03:47 am   #20Nika
Question, about Angel not remembering all the naughty things he did as a vampire (if that is what the Shanshu would have done), would that mean he forgot all the good as well? An amnesiac with a whole new life?
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."

-Dag Hammersjold
Jan 25 2008 03:50 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
I would think so--it's implied he'd be starting fresh, and have a new chance at life.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 04:05 am   #22Eowyn315
I don't think it was ever suggested that he wouldn't remember what he did. In fact, I don't even remember anything in the prophecy about wiping the slate clean - just that he would "live until he dies."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 04:09 am   #23Scarlet Ibis
They talk about it (somewhere) in season five.

ETA: They talk about the prophecy several times.  I can't specifically recall what they discuss when the prophecy's first mentioned, but s5 is still fresh in my mind.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 04:33 am   #24Eowyn315
I found it - it was in "Destiny" - although it's Sirk who says "the vampire will have his past washed clean." Everyone else just says he'll become human. Since Sirk turns out to be lying about the Cup of Perpetual Torment, I'm not sure how confident we can be about the washing clean. If it is true, I would interpret it to mean that he'll no longer be accountable for his actions as a vampire, not that he'll get amnesia.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 04:37 am   #25Scarlet Ibis
But technically...he shouldn't be accountable now, if you wanna go with the whole "the soul's not responsible" route (though Spike and Angel clearly don't feel that way).  Making Angel human with his previous memories still in tact, logically, I'd think he'd feel just as repsonsible with a heartbeat as he did without one.  But on the other hand, his few brief stints of being able to be in the sunlight seem to wash that all away :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 05:03 am   #26Eowyn315
But if he's not accountable now, why's he atoning in the first place? If he's not accountable with the soul, how would the curse even be punishment?

I think the whole "the soul's not responsible" thing is a position that can only be held by someone who's never experienced the loss of their soul... But I think Angel would definitely see becoming human as a fresh start, even if he did have all his memories, because the demon would be gone. The demon was what made him a ruthless killer. It doesn't mean much to be a vampire with a soul, because the demon is still there, so it's still him that's responsible, but if he's human, then he can truly separate himself from the being that committed those acts.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 05:09 am   #27Scarlet Ibis
This is true...but I'm still hung up on the fact that if the memory remains, even if the demon does not, (especially knowing Angel), that a part of him may still feel partially accountable.  I could be wrong, but I believe that we're the sum of our memories.  And yes, the whole demon vs soul thing skews that a bit...but memories, even ones that aren't "yours" per se, can still mess you up.  For instance, when Cordelia was bombarded with all of those visions cause that demon infected her at the end of season one.  Granted, they were multiple memories, but they were still hard for her.  Even later in season two before she becomes part demon, they were hurting her (not just the fact that she couldn't physically sustain them--they were taking an emotional toll on her as well).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 06:15 am   #28Eowyn315
I believe that we're the sum of our memories.

I think that's probably true (although, see "Tabula Rasa" as a prime argument against that), but bad memories don't always have to have a negative effect on you. For instance, as a souled vampire, Angel is the product of his memories in that the memory of his bad deeds is what drives him to do good.

But I think the thing to remember with Angel is that the shanshu is the reward - it means he's done his atoning and he's made all the amends he needs. It's a very physical acknowledgment that he's paid his price. So just knowing that he's achieved that could go a long way to lifting the burden of guilt.

Of course, considering the Powers, the "reward" might come with some punishment of its own. I'm not sure which would be worse - having his memories, or not having them (amnesia might be freeing, but it'd also be immensely frustrating if he cared to find out who he was before).

I think Cordelia's a slightly different case, since those weren't memories, per se, they were visions - and she wasn't just seeing or remembering them, she was actually experiencing them, so she was feeling the pain, fear, etc. in that moment as if it were her own.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 06:22 am   #29Scarlet Ibis
Hmm...you do have a point with the whole "Tabula Rasa" thing--there were a ton of things that occured that linked back to their personalities, with or without their memories.  But yeah, the Shanshu would ultimately mean he was forgiven, and that he was finished, so officially, he could let all of that go.

And if we're going to talk punishment, having the amnesia and then finding out who he was beforehand (all the way back to Angelus--not Angel) would be a huge punishment, I'd think.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 25 2008 08:11 am   #30nmcil

From Angel: After the fall

Angel:

I joined a corporation that was quite literally, evil incarnate. I thought I could channel their resources into something positive.

In an existence defined by bad choices, that was my worst.

I didn’t change them, they changed me.

Then the killer her.

That opened my eyes.

I took a stand.

That was a while ago. And ever since then

I’ve been trying to make up for it.

This is the first time that Angel is referred to as a man –

Illyria refers to him as "half of what you were " in volume 3 – so Angel maybe human now, but he may also not be normal human male either.

Anyone have info on the speculation on Gunn’s sire? Spike would have been too busy fighting to do the deed, even if he had wanted to as a way of giving Gunn another way to live. Looking forward to volume 4 and to see where they take Spike and Illyria – liking Connor very much as well.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 26 2008 02:12 am   #31Eowyn315
I thought it was made clear in issue 2 that neither Angel nor Spike was Gunn's sire. In fact, it's questionable whether they even know he's a vampire - Spike says he was made into "a four course buffet," so they may think Gunn was just killed by a vampire, not turned.

If it's not those two, I doubt it really makes that much of a difference. We don't know any other vampires with a reason to turn Gunn, so if his sire is going to play a bigger role than just "random vamp who was fighting on the W&H side of the battle," then it'll probably be a new character.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 26 2008 07:06 am   #32nmcil
Thanks much for the clarification about Gunn - was in the process of reading the second volume again -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 25 2008 10:35 pm   #33Guest
Has anyone read issue #4 yet?
Feb 25 2008 11:12 pm   #34Enisy
I have. The Spider gal seems to be infatuated with Spike, but he's clearly and totally Not Interested. There's also a timeskip that indicates he'll be beheading her in the near future. Nyahaha.

Makes me wonder about some stuff, though. She was encouraging him to kill Angel in this issue, and he just ordered her out of the room, but the Issue 5 cover shows Spike and Angel grappling and Spike holding a knife. Eek. Might be a mislead (AGAIN), though, or those brainwashing powers the aforementioned gal seems to have.

Feb 25 2008 11:27 pm   #35Dihcar
"I have. The Spider gal seems to be infatuated with Spike, but he's clearly and totally Not Interested. There's also a timeskip that indicates he'll be beheading her in the near future. Nyahaha.

Makes me wonder about some stuff, though. She was encouraging him to kill Angel in this issue, and he just ordered her out of the room, but the Issue 5 cover shows Spike and Angel grappling and Spike holding a knife."

Enisy, i don't think it takes place in the near future, more like distant future if the flying cars are any indication.  The flashback also suggest that Spider is an immortal, she's excisted a century ago, who knows how old she is.   Her remark of Spike being the best of this and any other world also suggest that she has been to many worlds, like Illyria had.

And look again, it's not a knife, he's holding the hagun shaft on cover5.
Spike/Fray=The future
Feb 25 2008 11:34 pm   #36Enisy
Her decapitated body is wearing the bikini. My guess is that she's killed in the near future and just shows up as a corpse in Illyria's post-mortem timeskips.

And no, he isn't holding the Hagun shaft in the Issue 5 cover. Just rechecked.

Feb 26 2008 12:19 am   #37Scarlet Ibis
When did issue four even come out?  I pre bought the first five, and have yet to recieve it by mail.  Has it been out for awhile?  Should I be pissed?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 26 2008 12:45 am   #38Enisy
Since Thursday, I believe.

Feb 26 2008 02:18 am   #39nmcil
came out retail 20th here in New Mexico -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 26 2008 02:29 am   #40Eowyn315
Scarlet, I order them by mail, too, and I haven't gotten mine yet. Although, mine tend to be extremely late every month - like, at least 2-3 weeks after they hit the shelves.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 26 2008 05:00 am   #41Scarlet Ibis
Rats.  I won't even be here to get it *pouts*

~Scarlet
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 26 2008 07:27 am   #42Guest
I was thinking about the changing sides rumor again. What if it means that he's going to change his current allicances from Illyria and Spider, back to Angel in Issue six?
Feb 26 2008 07:51 am   #43nmcil
I can't wait to see why Spike has what looks like the Slayer Scythe
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 26 2008 07:53 am   #44Guest
I heard a rumor that he made that himself, but it's just a rumor.
Feb 26 2008 02:41 pm   #45Enisy
Not a rumour. Brian flat-out said that it's "more handmade".

Feb 26 2008 04:02 pm   #46Dihcar
Her decapitated body is wearing the bikini. My guess is that she's killed in the near future and just shows up as a corpse in Illyria's post-mortem timeskips.

And no, he isn't holding the Hagun shaft in the Issue 5 cover. Just rechecked.


That could have happend, altough if that's the case, then it's not sure wether Spike was the one to decapite her.  I feel(especially from Spike/Spuffy fans) this "Burn Spider at the stake-vibe".  Which i really don't get, she hasn't done anything truelly wrong or evil.  Not liking Angel is understandable, there are lots of people that have something against Angel with good cause.  But who knows she could be evil, time will tell.

Well, he's also not holding a knife i think.  It looks like a stake, but seem to have some decoration around the hilt, maybe the artist just drew it a little differently, it's a pretty old cover dating months back.
Spike/Fray=The future
Feb 26 2008 06:35 pm   #47Enisy
That could have happend, altough if that's the case, then it's not sure wether Spike was the one to decapite her.  I feel(especially from Spike/Spuffy fans) this "Burn Spider at the stake-vibe".  Which i really don't get, she hasn't done anything truelly wrong or evil.  Not liking Angel is understandable, there are lots of people that have something against Angel with good cause.  But who knows she could be evil, time will tell.

I said this on another forum: I'm actually starting to like her more now that everyone else hates her. I no longer have to overcompensate. *g* But she clearly has her own agenda, with her plans to manipulate Illyria and to kill Angel and her fascination with implements of destruction.

Feb 26 2008 08:36 pm   #48nmcil
I said this on another forum: I'm actually starting to like her more now that everyone else hates her. I no longer have to overcompensate. *g* But she clearly has her own agenda, with her plans to manipulate Illyria and to kill Angel and her fascination with implements of destruction.


is this at Whedonesque?  I want to join a Angel season 6 discussion group, but my time is getting really tight, which one do you think is the most interesting?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 27 2008 01:34 pm   #49Dihcar
"I said this on another forum: I'm actually starting to like her more now that everyone else hates her. I no longer have to overcompensate. *g* But she clearly has her own agenda, with her plans to manipulate Illyria and to kill Angel and her fascination with implements of destruction."

I didn't mean you, just generalizing what i read on other boards too.  And yeah she does seem suspicious, at the same time tough, there have always been shady characters in the Buffyverse that proved to be quite good over time.

Spike seems to be coping well in hell, but Spider and her woman seem desperate to get out.  You would do a lot of things if one were desperate, including i think using/stealing a former oldone's power who is a complete stranger to you.  Survival of the fittest.
Good thing Illyria has Spike looking out for her best intrests.
Spike/Fray=The future
Feb 27 2008 07:54 pm   #50nmcil
Not a rumour. Brian flat-out said that it's "more handmade".

sorry to bother, but where is this info available - site or interview?  I am really liking both the comic season, but After the Fall especially as these will take Spike's journey further,  actually all the characters but I am especially interested in Connor, Spike, Angel and Lorne - Gunn is really interesting in the season as well - I felt great simpatico with the photo retrieval - can't wait to see where they are taking him - he sure is channeling his vengeance mode - What I found really interesting was the section  when Spike confronts Angel and referenced The End of Days and memo - Did Angel have foreknowledge that this being sent to hell was a potential result when he ask all his comrades in W&H to join with him in his Grand Last Stand? 

Angel throughout the Season 5 seemed very much as an inflated ego and as living in his inner demon Jungian dreamscape realm, it felt to me like he was in a preparation mode to fall further into self-made hell - he has made so many bad choices ever since we first see him in  - 

Anyone think that Connor is going to be his rescue and possible guide into whatever his next  phase will be?  At this point, and strictly from a phase of the Hero's journey, I would like to see Spike help Angel as well - Maybe Spike's homemade Slayer like scythe is a good foreshadow for things to come, not in any Slayers come to the rescue, but more as a symbol that our original characters can still connect with each other at the end. 

I wonder if Spider is connected to the original Guardians or PTB - it looks like she can shift in time like Doyle and Illyria.   We should have a discussion during the 2 month break to do a summary discussion.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 28 2008 05:03 pm   #51Enisy
is this at Whedonesque?  I want to join a Angel season 6 discussion group, but my time is getting really tight, which one do you think is the most interesting?

I think IDW forums. Clicky. Be nice having more Spuffy fans there, too. :)

sorry to bother, but where is this info available - site or interview?

Brian clarified that "it's not the same thing" and that "it's more handmade" on the DarkHorse forums, where people were puzzling over it.

Apr 29 2008 11:29 pm   #52Diabola

Am going to close this thread due to spam. If you want to continue the discussion, feel free to start a new thread.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein

 Closed