BSV Forum - Writing - Canon

AtS Cannon

Jan 04 2008 06:56 am   #1goddess_hecate

Quick question from the college student who finds herself too poor to purchase AtS season 4 in the post holiday season:

What happens to Lorne's bar? Does he still have it by season 5?

Thanks

Hecate

Jan 04 2008 07:21 am   #2Shadow

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Angel blew it up.

Tahlmorra lujhalla mei wiccan, cheysu.
Jan 04 2008 11:20 am   #3Caro Mio

Lorne's bar was blown up twice. By season 4, he's moved on to Vegas while Angel is missing down at the bottom of the ocean. Holtz blew it up in Season 3.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Mar 16 2009 10:33 am   #4Legen
so, i know this a buffy centered site, but this is my home and i don't wanna go no wheres else.
so, here's my question; did angel ever tell buffy about the shanshu? or did she know in any other way?
as well as! what exactly were the specifics, as close to specifics as one can get with a shady prophecy, of the prophecy, if anybody knows?
thanks.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Mar 16 2009 11:14 am   #5Scarlet Ibis
I'm pretty sure she didn't know. The few times she came to LA were before he knew about the prophecy, and he visited Sunnydale, it never came up...The gist of it was that the vampire with a soul (unnamed) would--well, here's the more accurate quote, as it's explained in "Destiny" by Sirk:

The root of the tree will split in two. And each thing will seek nourishment from the buried river. Storm unleashed. The balance will falter until the vampire with a soul drinks from the cup of perpetual torment. He will have the weight of worlds upon him, binding his limbs, grinding his bones to meal until he saves creation... or destroys it. The vampire will have his past washed clean, and live again in mortal form. The drinking of the cup is predestined. That can't be changed. Whoever drinks from it was meant to.


And here's Wes' version from s1: Shanshu has roots in so many different languages. The most ancient source is the Proto-Bantu and they consider life and death the same thing. It's part of a cycle. Only a thing that's not alive never dies. It's - it's saying that you get to live until you die. It's saying - it's saying... you become human. Ah, the vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu. Become human. It's his reward. Well, it's saying that it won't happen tomorrow or the next day. He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed on the world.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 16 2009 12:18 pm   #6Caro Mio

What Sirk read is a made-up part of the prophecy, commissioned by Eve and Lindsey.

Angel learns about the Shanshu in 1.22  "To Shanshu in LA". When season 2 picks up, Angel's taking out demons like a list to tick things off of.......he soon figures out that he shouldn't be focusing on the reward of the Shanshu, but on helping people. Temporary excitement got out of hand, LOL.

We never see Buffy hear about the Shanshu onscreen. The Shanshu is only talked about on AtS.

Wes' interpretation is living=human........but technically, the language doesn't say "human". But living again is the vampire with the soul's reward. It's unclear, of course, whether he's Average Joe, or a Living Vampire. The prophecy doesn't say anything about releasing the Vampire from the Good Fight after he lives again......though it's easy enough to assume that he/she gets to retire.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Mar 19 2009 08:29 am   #7Sensei
But living again is the vampire with the soul's reward.
Wow, until you said it I never made this possible connection.  Maybe Spike shanshued and we never even noticed! Think about the end of BtVS seaon 7.  He did save the world, he had a soul when he did it, he "died" and then at the beginning of season 5 in AtS he "lived again".   As you pointed out, it never said he'd be human, so maybe his resurrection on AtS was it.  (I know I'm stretching the reality a bit, but it's a fun thought to play around with!)

Mar 19 2009 12:53 pm   #8surefall
It could also be that Sirk is a) telling a partial truth instead of a total lie or b) interpreting the actual words of the prophecy into something that fits what he wants to accomplish.  They basically get sent to a literal cup of perpetual torment after a literal screaming freakout incident ... but none of that is necessarily literal since hey, it's prophecy and hey ... all that balance and cup of perpetual torment thing could be a total metaphor for something else.   ::waggles eyebrows::  Allow me to demonstrate:

The root of the tree will split in two.

Buffy is resurrected as a Slayer, splitting the Slayer line in two.

And each thing will seek nourishment from the buried river. 

Eh, could be anything.  Could be Buffy going to Spike during all of S6.  It could be Willow with the magic addiction.  It could be about Faith in prison.  It could be about the First beginning to work in the world.

Storm unleashed.

Tara's death and Willow setting out to destroy the world.

The balance will falter until the vampire with a soul drinks from the cup of perpetual torment.

Spike getting his soul.  Willow stops with her destroy the world thing about the time that Spike gets the soul.  The wording can imply timing rather than cause-effect.

He will have the weight of worlds upon him, binding his limbs, grinding his bones to meal

Spike spends a lot of S7 being messed with or tortured by the First Evil for no real apparent reason (even up to the eleventh hour with the Angel incident) ... that sounds like the First knowing more stuff that everyone else.

until he saves creation... or destroys it.

End of S7.  Yay amulet.

The vampire will have his past washed clean, and live again in mortal form.

The beginning of AtS S5.  There's also something of a behaviour shift with Spike, like the past isn't pressing down on him like it was in S7.  Which I always take as the AtS writers not knowing what to do with him, but hey, it could be that pressing guilt thing isn't there anymore. 

The drinking of the cup is predestined. That can't be changed. Whoever drinks from it was meant to.

Too late yo, the deal, she is done.

....

See what I mean?

It's almost like it could be the prophecy of Willow&Spike rather than vampire with soul?
Mar 19 2009 01:08 pm   #9
Ooo, I like that, surefail.
Mar 19 2009 04:20 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis
It could also be that Sirk is a) telling a partial truth instead of a total lie or b) interpreting the actual words of the prophecy into something that fits what he wants to accomplish.
That's what I thought.  What was that Anya said?  Something about evil doers telling the truth?

Eh, could be anything. Could be Buffy going to Spike during all of S6. It could be Willow with the magic addiction. It could be about Faith in prison. It could be about the First beginning to work in the world.
I assume this line is still referencing the split root--Buffy seeks "nourishment" from Spike, which enables her to get her ass in gear in s7 to help defeat The First, and Faith seeks "nourishment" from Angel.  Well, she's been seeking nourishment, the comes out of retirement to save him.  I like the idea of a metaphor for vampires, particularly souled ones, being "a buried river."  Seemingly dead, with a rush of life underneath.

He will have the weight of worlds upon him, binding his limbs, grinding his bones to meal
I think that was about the actual moment of the amulet working.  Think of it: his limbs were bound by this light (or it looked as if he couldn't move to me), and nothing grinds your bones to meal like being set on fire and turning to ash.

The beginning of AtS S5. There's also something of a behaviour shift with Spike, like the past isn't pressing down on him like it was in S7. Which I always take as the AtS writers not knowing what to do with him, but hey, it could be that pressing guilt thing isn't there anymore.
Well, a ghost that wasn't isn't mortal form.  As for Spike's behavior shift...he seems more carefree, but that's been happening since LMPTM.  Though I did secretly suspect that the amulet cleansed the soul right out of him (especially since Angel was the intended party). 

As far as prophecies go, however, I found William's poem most intriguing

(note:  The last bit is bold because it's a link, and not cause I was just randomly bolding things :P)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 19 2009 06:50 pm   #11surefall
That's what I thought. What was that Anya said? Something about evil doers telling the truth?

::nods::  Just because he sent them on a crazy quest doesn't mean he mistranslated the prophecy, just that he used it to further his own ends.

And the fact that they then doubt the translation?  Bonus.

I think that was about the actual moment of the amulet working. Think of it: his limbs were bound by this light (or it looked as if he couldn't move to me), and nothing grinds your bones to meal like being set on fire and turning to ash.

I totally did my prophecy interpretation in five seconds and then wrote it down, so we're wide open for more opinions on the subject.  ^.~

Well, a ghost that wasn't isn't mortal form.

Technically, according to google definitions, mortal means:

  1. Liable or subject to death.
  2. Of or relating to humankind; human: the mortal limits of understanding.
  3. Of, relating to, or accompanying death: mortal throes.
  4. Causing death; fatal: a mortal wound.
  5. Fighting or fought to the death; unrelenting: a mortal enemy; a mortal attack.
  6. Of great intensity or severity; dire: mortal terror.
  7. Conceivable: no mortal reason for us to go.
  8. Used as an intensive: a mortal fool.
Anything that ceases to exit, dusts, leaves the physical or spiritual plane for the afterlife could be considered as "liable or subject to death".  Anything that got brought back in a form that could die or end could be considered mortal, whatever that form might be.

Admittedly, since Spike becomes solid again later on, I kinda ignored the ghostliness part.  Sorry.  I knew that was probably open for dispute after I typed it down as a possibility.

As for Spike's behavior shift...he seems more carefree, but that's been happening since LMPTM. Though I did secretly suspect that the amulet cleansed the soul right out of him (especially since Angel was the intended party).

::nods::  I thought that too.  It's such a WR&H kind of plot.  And the fact that he's then incorporeal, can't leave LA, and the amulet is the property of WR&H?  Plot, plot, plot.

I also suspected that Angel has Spike's memory messed with as well (or possibly everyone's memory in general messed with), because that flashback to the end of chosen there in AtS5 is complete except for the part where Buffy declares her love and Spike replies.  That part is COMPLETELY REMOVED.  Suspicious?  I think so.

As far as prophecies go, however, I found William's poem most intriguing.

o.o  Whoa.  You are not kidding.
Mar 21 2009 09:36 pm   #12Legen
As far as prophecies go, however, I found William's poem most intriguing. o.o Whoa. You are not kidding.
:( can you post the poem please...i'm not authorized to go to livejournel websites :(
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Mar 22 2009 06:48 am   #13nmcil
Legen - when is your Iraq duty  happening? 

On Spike and his soul - in "Spike After The Fall" he describes himself as a vampire with a soul -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 22 2009 06:57 am   #14Scarlet Ibis
On Spike and his soul - in "Spike After The Fall" he describes himself as a vampire with a soul -
This is true.  But how would he know if it was still there?  I don't think he would...  I always assumed that had Ats gotten another season, that we would have found that Spike only believed he had a soul, and the Liz Taylor amulet, which was meant to "cleanse" or whatever, cleansed the soul right out of him, and he, Angel and the rest would have to ponder him being "good" just because he believed it to be there.  Not that being "good" was new for Spike.

Anyway, I'm going to wait and see what Lynch will do :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 22 2009 02:07 pm   #15Legen
Legen - when is your Iraq duty happening?
it's been happening, since december. if it worked right, my icon is of me getting ready to leave kuwait maybe two weeks before christmas. but our internet isn't the best so i can't ever see custom icons.
On Spike and his soul - in "Spike After The Fall" he describes himself as a vampire with a soul
he, Angel and the rest would have to ponder him being "good" just because he believed it to be there. Not that being "good" was new for Spike
like si said, i think even if it wasn't there there wouldn't be that much of a difference. even when it was there, once spike got out of the basement, he was pretty much the same ensouled as he was with out it. IMO, i don't think he ever really lost all of it in the first place.
Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.

 Closed