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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Sex in fics: peeve or perk?
Jan 24 2008 01:35 pm #1slaymesoftly
Moderator
Sex in fic – peeve or perk?
I decided this topic deserved its own thread – so here we go. We obviously have members with very different opinions on the place sex has in stories. And all of those viewpoints are legitimate ones; so I’ve decided to explore them a bit here. (Side note: the “bit” has turned into a very long meta post. Sorry about that – it turned out I had a lot to say. LOL)
We had a poster on one thread who said she was “disappointed” any time she began reading an NC17 fic and there wasn’t enough sex to suit her. Her reason for going with NC17 was the sex. Period, end of story. (pun intended)
Nothing wrong with that, except that she needs to broaden her definition of what can constitute subject matter unsuitable for the very young and realize that not every NC17 fic is going to offer as much sex as she wants. She needs to learn and seek out authors who are known for their sexy stories * cough, NautiBitz, cough * and/or look for the pwp designation. There are many authors who put large amounts of very graphic sex in their stories, and learning who those authors are will keep her from a lot of “disappointment”. I’m assuming that she wouldn’t be offended if, in the midst of the sex, an actual plot broke out. LOL
Then we had someone on another thread saying that sex in a story just for the sake of having sex in the story wasn’t her cup of tea. (That’s a kind way of saying it was one of her pet peeves.) Her feeling seemed to be that many authors put a lot of sex in just to please certain readers or to get reviews, and that it detracts from the stories. Can’t disagree with that, either. Unless you are only there for the sex, it’s going to be much more enjoyable if it is organic to the story and appropriate for the characters to be having it at that time. Sometimes you can tell if an author has inserted a sex scene just to earn that NC17 rating and to attract readers/reviewers who are looking for sex, and sometimes you can’t. Good writers can make almost anything work – although, I will admit to being in the camp with those who skim through the sex if it’s too much, too repetitious, and, ultimately, boring. The best writers know how and when to bring the heat so that it adds to the story rather than interrupts it.
To use some well known writers as examples:
Herself is known for her highly erotic scenes – but rarely, if ever, do they not arise from a believable set of circumstances. And, since she writes relationships so well, they are always an integral part of what’s going on between the two characters at that time. I doubt very many readers would skim past the sex in her stories, because they would be very likely missing important clues to how the relationship is developing and what might happen next. Sometimes the emotional relationship develops out of the sexual one, and sometimes the sex is the inevitable result of the emotions between the two characters; either way, it is always an important aspect of the story. Graphic, yes; gratuitous, no.
With a penname like NautiBtitz, readers looking for lots of sex shouldn’t have any trouble finding this rather famous (contrary to her own surprise that she is) author of NC17 fics and be more than happy with the sex they find in her work. But, surprise! Most of her stories, even if designated pwp, have an actual, believable story line to go with. She writes with humor, has good dialogue and characterizations, and even throws in a touch of angst once in a while. So, what takes her out of the realm of ordinary porn writers is that her stories are fun to read. They are stories. Again, the key is believability – if you accept the story’s basic premise (whatever it may be), then the sex flows quite naturally from the situation.
Those are two examples of authors who do it right. Needless to say, I’m not going to identify those who I think get it wrong (not that I necessarily could, because I’m probably not reading many of them). However, I will say that graphic sex scenes are not something to tackle if you don’t write well to begin with. As much fun as has been had on the thread Dia started a long time ago about BAP fics (bloody awful porn), I doubt anyone really wants to find their own work showing up as examples of it. ;) Just a word to the wise…
There are, unfortunately, some quite good authors who get carried away with putting a sex scene in every chapter, as though readers would be disappointed if they didn’t find them. A shame, really, that they don’t have more faith than that in their ability to tell a story. Those are the fics that get the reviews at some sites, though…* sigh *
So, my advice to readers is to know what you like and seek out that genre or that author, rather than go by the ratings. If you want/need a lot of sex in your fics, stick with those labeled pwp (even though that may not technically be true of the better ones); and with the authors that you know are going to provide a lot of it.
If you don’t want distracting sex scenes, stick to authors who know how and when to put one in – or to a lower rating. I defy anyone to read any of Nan Dibbles’s work and not feel the passion and heat between Spike and Buffy – with nary a cock or a pussy or a spurt to be seen anywhere. It is possible to write an erotic passage without having it sound like a 900 phone call or without using trite romance novel euphemisms. Possible, but not easy. (More about that below).
Slightly new subject – and personal opinions:
Authors who use sex as a mechanism to “fix” everything kind of stretch the limits of my believability, too. Sex isn’t going to fix a serious break in the relationship – communication does that. And it isn’t going to cause two people who dislike each other to suddenly fall in love (unless there has always been an underlying current of attraction and that has been made clear at some point). (And, yes, I probably have some fics like that – what can I say? I’m a sheep. Baaaaaaa)
This is a very personal view – but I just don’t think love is going to grow out of a rape. (I can think of one exception – a fic of which I read a good portion some time ago, in which Spike’s rape of Buffy was something to which she semi-consented out of overwhelming guilt and a response to his very real grief. That one sort of worked for me because it was presented as an understandable reaction to very strong emotions from both characters. There also turned out to be a mystical reason for them having been brought together, it was kind of taken out of their hands. One of the few rape scenes that didn’t leave me shaking my head and going “Oh, give me a break!”).
Unfortunately, most of them just present the rape as something that she gets over quickly and moves right on to falling in love. Or she gets off on it – which brings me to my real complaint: a hand, tongue or other body part in or on your private parts – no matter how talented said hand or tongue may be – is NOT a turn on. It’s a very real and particularly rude and uncomfortable invasion of your personal space. Yes, the body can betray you and have a physical reaction to the actions. That is, I think, fairly well documented. But it IS just a physical reaction. It does not cause the victim to fall in love with her attacker or wish for a repeat performance. I’m speaking here, about serious rape or molestation scenes; not role-playing or teasing between two flirting people who may end up going a bit further than expected. Um, this one might have belonged on the pet peeves thread. lol
Back on topic:
As a writer, how do you know when to insert sex into your story? And how do you decide how to do it? Do you politely ‘fade to black’ when the clothes begin coming off, or do you follow every little movement and catalog every bodily fluid involved? This is not something that it is easy for many new writers to do. You have to find your comfort zone, and then, if you are really brave, ask someone (your beta should be helping here, but you might also want to seek a few other opinions) to critique it for you. It’s better to write a slightly boring fic where the sex is implied, that to write one where it is poorly presented. (IMHO – I’m sure there are those for whom there is no such thing as “bad sex”, but, trust me, there is!)
Another side note that may be of interest, or at least instructive –I’m trying to word this in a way that won’t give away identities, but I may not succeed. If you know, just be quiet, huh?
Once upon a time, there was a round robin story. It was a lot of fun and very interesting, both as a story and as a reading/ writing exercise. Several chapters in, we had a cracking good story going – definitely headed towards Spuffydom because that’s who we were, but a long way from it at that point. Part of the enjoyment was trying to guess who wrote what, based on what the readers knew about the various authors. A wonderful story was growing from the seamlessly connected chapters and a good time was being had by all.
Along comes the next writer, and she writes a chapter that is nothing but one long, wildly out of place and over done sex scene. Wonderful story almost go “boom” right there. Those of us still to go are left with our mouths hanging open going, “WTF? Now what do we do?” Fortunately, the next writer in line was able to partially salvage the situation somehow. I don’t know that I remember exactly how – maybe made it all a dream? Something like that. It didn’t repair the damage that had been done to the flow of the story, but if I remember correctly, it did manage to get us back on track and on with the plot. Anyway, what almost happened to that story from one totally inappropriate chapter being inserted where it had no business being is an excellent example of how the right sex at the right time can make or break a fic.
Boring personal experience
When I first began reading fan fic, I quickly identified the R and NC17 stories as the ones I wanted to look at first. Not for the sex, (which, BTW, caught me totally by surprise. I was constantly going “Can they say that on here?” LOL) but because they seemed to be the better-written and more “grown-up” stories. I assumed at the time that it was because the NC17 rating meant that the author was an adult and therefore more experienced a writer and more likely to be able to handle adult themes. I’m not sure if I necessarily find that true now – but at the time it seemed a reasonable conclusion to come to.
So, there was my introduction to the world of fan fiction – NC17 = good reading and try not to be shocked at the amount and specificity of the sex being had. ☺ Now, of course, I go more by the authors’ names and read those stories that I know I’m likely to enjoy, regardless of the rating.
When I began writing my own stuff, there I was faced with that scary decision – what kind and how much sex do I put in? In all honesty, the reason I began putting more graphic sex into my fics was because I found that I totally sucked at writing around it. No matter what I did, or how I did it, my “fade to black” narratives came across as juvenile and blah. I didn’t like ending my stories on such a boring note – nor, however, did I like trying to write things just for the sake of having them in there. I fumbled around for a good long while to come up with what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. Took a bit from this writer, a bit more from that one, ran screaming away from that other one…LOL It’s a wip, and one I will probably never be completely finished with, but I think I’ve found my comfort zone and determined which words and phrases work for me and which ones don’t.
Back to other writer stuff
And that, I think, is the key. You need to find what you are comfortable writing and go from there. It may evolve over time; you may get braver or more inclined to explore other areas (No! I did not write slash porn! Do not listen to Kat! She lies! * ahem, cough, *) Where was I? Oh yeah, you will find, no doubt, that your ability to get your characters to do what you want the way you want them to will improve with practice. And you will figure out what you are comfortable writing.
I think it is often very obvious when a writer has inserted a sex scene just to have one to please those reviewers who, when they say “When do we get some Spuffy?” actually mean, “When do Spike and Buffy get naked?” Particularly so when the author has used terminology with which she is not really comfortable but feels the need to use because that’s what all the other writers are doing. (Been there, made that mistake.) Stay true to yourself. If you don’t like to read a lot of sex, then don’t try to make it fit into your story. If you really, really like it – then have at it! Enjoy the freedom that comes with writing fanfic.
PS Someone asked for a poll to find out how many skip the sex scenes, but I don’t know how to do that and don’t have time this AM to figure it out. I think we’ve had a discussion somewhat like that before, but I don’t know what thread it was on.
I decided this topic deserved its own thread – so here we go. We obviously have members with very different opinions on the place sex has in stories. And all of those viewpoints are legitimate ones; so I’ve decided to explore them a bit here. (Side note: the “bit” has turned into a very long meta post. Sorry about that – it turned out I had a lot to say. LOL)
We had a poster on one thread who said she was “disappointed” any time she began reading an NC17 fic and there wasn’t enough sex to suit her. Her reason for going with NC17 was the sex. Period, end of story. (pun intended)
Nothing wrong with that, except that she needs to broaden her definition of what can constitute subject matter unsuitable for the very young and realize that not every NC17 fic is going to offer as much sex as she wants. She needs to learn and seek out authors who are known for their sexy stories * cough, NautiBitz, cough * and/or look for the pwp designation. There are many authors who put large amounts of very graphic sex in their stories, and learning who those authors are will keep her from a lot of “disappointment”. I’m assuming that she wouldn’t be offended if, in the midst of the sex, an actual plot broke out. LOL
Then we had someone on another thread saying that sex in a story just for the sake of having sex in the story wasn’t her cup of tea. (That’s a kind way of saying it was one of her pet peeves.) Her feeling seemed to be that many authors put a lot of sex in just to please certain readers or to get reviews, and that it detracts from the stories. Can’t disagree with that, either. Unless you are only there for the sex, it’s going to be much more enjoyable if it is organic to the story and appropriate for the characters to be having it at that time. Sometimes you can tell if an author has inserted a sex scene just to earn that NC17 rating and to attract readers/reviewers who are looking for sex, and sometimes you can’t. Good writers can make almost anything work – although, I will admit to being in the camp with those who skim through the sex if it’s too much, too repetitious, and, ultimately, boring. The best writers know how and when to bring the heat so that it adds to the story rather than interrupts it.
To use some well known writers as examples:
Herself is known for her highly erotic scenes – but rarely, if ever, do they not arise from a believable set of circumstances. And, since she writes relationships so well, they are always an integral part of what’s going on between the two characters at that time. I doubt very many readers would skim past the sex in her stories, because they would be very likely missing important clues to how the relationship is developing and what might happen next. Sometimes the emotional relationship develops out of the sexual one, and sometimes the sex is the inevitable result of the emotions between the two characters; either way, it is always an important aspect of the story. Graphic, yes; gratuitous, no.
With a penname like NautiBtitz, readers looking for lots of sex shouldn’t have any trouble finding this rather famous (contrary to her own surprise that she is) author of NC17 fics and be more than happy with the sex they find in her work. But, surprise! Most of her stories, even if designated pwp, have an actual, believable story line to go with. She writes with humor, has good dialogue and characterizations, and even throws in a touch of angst once in a while. So, what takes her out of the realm of ordinary porn writers is that her stories are fun to read. They are stories. Again, the key is believability – if you accept the story’s basic premise (whatever it may be), then the sex flows quite naturally from the situation.
Those are two examples of authors who do it right. Needless to say, I’m not going to identify those who I think get it wrong (not that I necessarily could, because I’m probably not reading many of them). However, I will say that graphic sex scenes are not something to tackle if you don’t write well to begin with. As much fun as has been had on the thread Dia started a long time ago about BAP fics (bloody awful porn), I doubt anyone really wants to find their own work showing up as examples of it. ;) Just a word to the wise…
There are, unfortunately, some quite good authors who get carried away with putting a sex scene in every chapter, as though readers would be disappointed if they didn’t find them. A shame, really, that they don’t have more faith than that in their ability to tell a story. Those are the fics that get the reviews at some sites, though…* sigh *
So, my advice to readers is to know what you like and seek out that genre or that author, rather than go by the ratings. If you want/need a lot of sex in your fics, stick with those labeled pwp (even though that may not technically be true of the better ones); and with the authors that you know are going to provide a lot of it.
If you don’t want distracting sex scenes, stick to authors who know how and when to put one in – or to a lower rating. I defy anyone to read any of Nan Dibbles’s work and not feel the passion and heat between Spike and Buffy – with nary a cock or a pussy or a spurt to be seen anywhere. It is possible to write an erotic passage without having it sound like a 900 phone call or without using trite romance novel euphemisms. Possible, but not easy. (More about that below).
Slightly new subject – and personal opinions:
Authors who use sex as a mechanism to “fix” everything kind of stretch the limits of my believability, too. Sex isn’t going to fix a serious break in the relationship – communication does that. And it isn’t going to cause two people who dislike each other to suddenly fall in love (unless there has always been an underlying current of attraction and that has been made clear at some point). (And, yes, I probably have some fics like that – what can I say? I’m a sheep. Baaaaaaa)
This is a very personal view – but I just don’t think love is going to grow out of a rape. (I can think of one exception – a fic of which I read a good portion some time ago, in which Spike’s rape of Buffy was something to which she semi-consented out of overwhelming guilt and a response to his very real grief. That one sort of worked for me because it was presented as an understandable reaction to very strong emotions from both characters. There also turned out to be a mystical reason for them having been brought together, it was kind of taken out of their hands. One of the few rape scenes that didn’t leave me shaking my head and going “Oh, give me a break!”).
Unfortunately, most of them just present the rape as something that she gets over quickly and moves right on to falling in love. Or she gets off on it – which brings me to my real complaint: a hand, tongue or other body part in or on your private parts – no matter how talented said hand or tongue may be – is NOT a turn on. It’s a very real and particularly rude and uncomfortable invasion of your personal space. Yes, the body can betray you and have a physical reaction to the actions. That is, I think, fairly well documented. But it IS just a physical reaction. It does not cause the victim to fall in love with her attacker or wish for a repeat performance. I’m speaking here, about serious rape or molestation scenes; not role-playing or teasing between two flirting people who may end up going a bit further than expected. Um, this one might have belonged on the pet peeves thread. lol
Back on topic:
As a writer, how do you know when to insert sex into your story? And how do you decide how to do it? Do you politely ‘fade to black’ when the clothes begin coming off, or do you follow every little movement and catalog every bodily fluid involved? This is not something that it is easy for many new writers to do. You have to find your comfort zone, and then, if you are really brave, ask someone (your beta should be helping here, but you might also want to seek a few other opinions) to critique it for you. It’s better to write a slightly boring fic where the sex is implied, that to write one where it is poorly presented. (IMHO – I’m sure there are those for whom there is no such thing as “bad sex”, but, trust me, there is!)
Another side note that may be of interest, or at least instructive –I’m trying to word this in a way that won’t give away identities, but I may not succeed. If you know, just be quiet, huh?
Once upon a time, there was a round robin story. It was a lot of fun and very interesting, both as a story and as a reading/ writing exercise. Several chapters in, we had a cracking good story going – definitely headed towards Spuffydom because that’s who we were, but a long way from it at that point. Part of the enjoyment was trying to guess who wrote what, based on what the readers knew about the various authors. A wonderful story was growing from the seamlessly connected chapters and a good time was being had by all.
Along comes the next writer, and she writes a chapter that is nothing but one long, wildly out of place and over done sex scene. Wonderful story almost go “boom” right there. Those of us still to go are left with our mouths hanging open going, “WTF? Now what do we do?” Fortunately, the next writer in line was able to partially salvage the situation somehow. I don’t know that I remember exactly how – maybe made it all a dream? Something like that. It didn’t repair the damage that had been done to the flow of the story, but if I remember correctly, it did manage to get us back on track and on with the plot. Anyway, what almost happened to that story from one totally inappropriate chapter being inserted where it had no business being is an excellent example of how the right sex at the right time can make or break a fic.
Boring personal experience
When I first began reading fan fic, I quickly identified the R and NC17 stories as the ones I wanted to look at first. Not for the sex, (which, BTW, caught me totally by surprise. I was constantly going “Can they say that on here?” LOL) but because they seemed to be the better-written and more “grown-up” stories. I assumed at the time that it was because the NC17 rating meant that the author was an adult and therefore more experienced a writer and more likely to be able to handle adult themes. I’m not sure if I necessarily find that true now – but at the time it seemed a reasonable conclusion to come to.
So, there was my introduction to the world of fan fiction – NC17 = good reading and try not to be shocked at the amount and specificity of the sex being had. ☺ Now, of course, I go more by the authors’ names and read those stories that I know I’m likely to enjoy, regardless of the rating.
When I began writing my own stuff, there I was faced with that scary decision – what kind and how much sex do I put in? In all honesty, the reason I began putting more graphic sex into my fics was because I found that I totally sucked at writing around it. No matter what I did, or how I did it, my “fade to black” narratives came across as juvenile and blah. I didn’t like ending my stories on such a boring note – nor, however, did I like trying to write things just for the sake of having them in there. I fumbled around for a good long while to come up with what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. Took a bit from this writer, a bit more from that one, ran screaming away from that other one…LOL It’s a wip, and one I will probably never be completely finished with, but I think I’ve found my comfort zone and determined which words and phrases work for me and which ones don’t.
Back to other writer stuff
And that, I think, is the key. You need to find what you are comfortable writing and go from there. It may evolve over time; you may get braver or more inclined to explore other areas (No! I did not write slash porn! Do not listen to Kat! She lies! * ahem, cough, *) Where was I? Oh yeah, you will find, no doubt, that your ability to get your characters to do what you want the way you want them to will improve with practice. And you will figure out what you are comfortable writing.
I think it is often very obvious when a writer has inserted a sex scene just to have one to please those reviewers who, when they say “When do we get some Spuffy?” actually mean, “When do Spike and Buffy get naked?” Particularly so when the author has used terminology with which she is not really comfortable but feels the need to use because that’s what all the other writers are doing. (Been there, made that mistake.) Stay true to yourself. If you don’t like to read a lot of sex, then don’t try to make it fit into your story. If you really, really like it – then have at it! Enjoy the freedom that comes with writing fanfic.
PS Someone asked for a poll to find out how many skip the sex scenes, but I don’t know how to do that and don’t have time this AM to figure it out. I think we’ve had a discussion somewhat like that before, but I don’t know what thread it was on.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Possibly because of... ahem... lack of it in RL lately, I enjoy reading fics that have a lot of sex scenes in them. It is more than possible that I am a smut addict, lol. I worship Nautibitz (not the only one I worship, but since she was mentioned...) My first fic is already heavy on sex (so was my short story) and my sis says that it's rapidly turning from a 'romance' to a PWP... so yeah, mind usually in the gutter!
Thing is, though, much as I enjoy it, I agree with you that if it seems forced (not as in 'rape', but as in 'doesn't fit the context') I have to skip it. Same goes with badly written sex scenes.
What's more, when a story manages to grasp my attention despite the lack of sex, I become fully enamored with it (guess there's hope for me yet, huh?)
I only started writing a few months ago - so any advice is more than welcome - and have already found what you said about writers staying within their comfort zone to be wise in principle, however there are points at which you have to challenge yourself and your writing (IMHO, of course) to see if you can take it a step further.
xxx
PS. I hope all that made sense (especially since English is not my first language and my beta isn't around :P)
Thing is, though, much as I enjoy it, I agree with you that if it seems forced (not as in 'rape', but as in 'doesn't fit the context') I have to skip it. Same goes with badly written sex scenes.
What's more, when a story manages to grasp my attention despite the lack of sex, I become fully enamored with it (guess there's hope for me yet, huh?)
I only started writing a few months ago - so any advice is more than welcome - and have already found what you said about writers staying within their comfort zone to be wise in principle, however there are points at which you have to challenge yourself and your writing (IMHO, of course) to see if you can take it a step further.
xxx
PS. I hope all that made sense (especially since English is not my first language and my beta isn't around :P)
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Moderator
Err, WORD - that's all I can think of right now, too tired. (My heating died yesterday and I didn't get much sleep because it was just a tad cold, maybe I'll have more to say once I've caught up on sleep.)
I was a lazy Dia and didn't add a poll-feature to the forum, we can use the BSV lj-comm for that though. Let me know if you want me to put one up, we can link it and later post the results on here.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Jan 24 2008 06:04 pm #4Guest
Guest
I liked to read a variety of stories, but I noticed my recommendations were all NC-17 or higher. I prefer storiesthat have slow, hot build-ups to the smutty goodness. I rarely read one shots, except when I'm in a naughty mood : )
I have to admit that in a long piece of fiction, if it's filled with sex scenes, I will skim or skip paragraphs. I am a speed reader, and on the flip side, I will sometimes slow down and read a sex scene that is well done and in the midst of a good story.
The first two stories I wrote, I flirted around the sex scenes. There was hotness, but no graphic descriptions. I didn't feel I was ready for it and did not want to force it. They were also non-Spuffy, so I think I had a little trouble imaging scenes with Spike/Other.
With my last story, the sex scene just seemed to fit naturally in that spot and I just wrote it out in one long session. I reread it and said, "No way is that going out to the public!" LOL! I left the chapter sitting there for the longest time. I couldn't even open the file. I revised the other ten chapters and then went searching for betas. When we were on chapter seven, I finally opened the hot stuff file again (chapter ten) and reread it. I actually liked it and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I did as Slaymesoftly suggests and shared that chapter with two others, besides my betas. I still cringed when I hit the submit button, but I was very pleased with the feedback I got from readers. Because of that one chapter, I rated my story NC-17. I'm sure there were some who were dissapointed that there was only one chapter towards the end with a sex scene, but I had to give the whole storie that rating. Unless I'm missing something, I think I did that right?
I don't write to please readers. I write out of pure enjoyment and practice for the future. Everybody has different tastes, so I just write what I like and if others like it, that's great. I hope some people do.
Great thread and post Slaymesoftly.
I have to admit that in a long piece of fiction, if it's filled with sex scenes, I will skim or skip paragraphs. I am a speed reader, and on the flip side, I will sometimes slow down and read a sex scene that is well done and in the midst of a good story.
The first two stories I wrote, I flirted around the sex scenes. There was hotness, but no graphic descriptions. I didn't feel I was ready for it and did not want to force it. They were also non-Spuffy, so I think I had a little trouble imaging scenes with Spike/Other.
With my last story, the sex scene just seemed to fit naturally in that spot and I just wrote it out in one long session. I reread it and said, "No way is that going out to the public!" LOL! I left the chapter sitting there for the longest time. I couldn't even open the file. I revised the other ten chapters and then went searching for betas. When we were on chapter seven, I finally opened the hot stuff file again (chapter ten) and reread it. I actually liked it and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I did as Slaymesoftly suggests and shared that chapter with two others, besides my betas. I still cringed when I hit the submit button, but I was very pleased with the feedback I got from readers. Because of that one chapter, I rated my story NC-17. I'm sure there were some who were dissapointed that there was only one chapter towards the end with a sex scene, but I had to give the whole storie that rating. Unless I'm missing something, I think I did that right?
I don't write to please readers. I write out of pure enjoyment and practice for the future. Everybody has different tastes, so I just write what I like and if others like it, that's great. I hope some people do.
Great thread and post Slaymesoftly.
Jan 24 2008 06:05 pm #5Guest
Guest
I don't know that I care one way or the other, but others might like it. I think we had an informal poll some time ago on this subject, but I don't though that results were tablulated. I think using the BSV lj com. would work just fine. I plan to cross post my blathering on my LJ anyway, so I can just link to the verse LJ.
I hope your heat is back on now! Or that you have lots of long underwear and wool clothes! *pets Dia and sends thoughts of sunny places*
I hope your heat is back on now! Or that you have lots of long underwear and wool clothes! *pets Dia and sends thoughts of sunny places*
The post under Diabola's is mine. I was signed in when I started the post, so I have no idea why it says I'm a guest? I can't go back and edit it.
Jan 24 2008 06:07 pm #7Guest
Guest
Oops! That was me above. I can't log in here.
Thanks, guest. I'm glad you liked it.
Slaymesoftly
Thanks, guest. I'm glad you liked it.
Slaymesoftly
I find I like R rated and NC-17 fics better not because of the sex, but because I find a lot of them better written than most. I don't mind sex in fics if it is well-written and believable and doesn't seem forced.
"Perhaps a great love is never returned."
-Dag Hammersjold
-Dag Hammersjold
Hi. I've lurked here for quite some time. Sorry about that. I'm a bit shy and worried about saying the wrong thing and unintentionally annoying someone, so I don't say anything at all! But I occasionally read forum posts and this one caught my eye, so I'm posting.
Your post, Slaymesoftly, pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject. Your "can they say that on here" comment made me laugh, because that was exactly my reaction when I found Spuffy fanfic. I felt a little like a kid in a candy store when I found these sites because there were so many wonderful things to read about characters I loved. I was thrilled! Free books! I was pregnant and stuck on bed rest, going through more books than I could afford and wearing out my husband with trips to our local library which is very small! So I became an instant addict.
I know it's off topic, but I would like to apologize to the wonderful authors whose stories I've read but didn't review. I'm one of those people who wrote something like "I've read all your stories" to you that you never heard from before. All I can say is that until I wrote something myself and received comments, I didn't realize that even a brief "I loved it" can brighten up an author's day. I thought if I didn't have something insightful to say, it wasn't worth saying anything. The only thing I can do now is repent and try to review everything I'm reading and enjoying now. I guess I also felt that of course these writers know they're wonderful! Admittedly, when a story is complete or I'm catching up and I'm hooked, the next arrow is still VERY tempting and I don't always review every chapter.
What I enjoy is reading good stories. Plotty, action, romance, angst...I'll read almost anything if it's written well. Some of the best have graphic sex scenes in them, and when they're done well, I like them. I would read a PWP from Nautibitz because she always has a fun story along with the smut. I've also read and enjoyed fics that have no sex at all but do have a fantastic plot and great writing.
As far as writing sex scenes, I haven't written a successful one yet! My attempts make me laugh, which is probably not a good sign! I know I'll never write one of the insert Tab A into Slot B ones with tons of fluids and graphic details, and I don't want to, but I'm hoping eventually I can do more than gloss over them briefly. I made my fics NC-17 because I'm unsure what the ratings stand for at various sites. I was thinking language and adult topics when I did it initially, but now I've read Rs that I thought, really? That's only R? Mine are probably PG then. I've started making my stories U where it's available because I'm unsure what they should be and don't want to mislead anyone.
Personally, any body parts "weeping", repetitious or unrealistic dialogue, overused phrases such as "tongues battling for dominance" (soooo sick of that one, no offense to anyone intended) all turn me off scenes but if the story's otherwise good I'll just skip ahead.
I recently got a review that said "I waited NINETEEN CHAPTERS for that kiss" castigating me for ending the chapter there and I wasn't sure whether it was hate mail or not. I'm leaning towards "yes" since it was signed "u_r_bad", LOL. Complaint about pacing, I guess. I feel bad disappointing people with a so far sexless story, but if I agonize over what I'm writing and try to force things I tend to get horrible writer's block.
This post soooo falls into the "Too Long Didn't Read" category now. Another reason I don't post. I ramble!
Your post, Slaymesoftly, pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject. Your "can they say that on here" comment made me laugh, because that was exactly my reaction when I found Spuffy fanfic. I felt a little like a kid in a candy store when I found these sites because there were so many wonderful things to read about characters I loved. I was thrilled! Free books! I was pregnant and stuck on bed rest, going through more books than I could afford and wearing out my husband with trips to our local library which is very small! So I became an instant addict.
I know it's off topic, but I would like to apologize to the wonderful authors whose stories I've read but didn't review. I'm one of those people who wrote something like "I've read all your stories" to you that you never heard from before. All I can say is that until I wrote something myself and received comments, I didn't realize that even a brief "I loved it" can brighten up an author's day. I thought if I didn't have something insightful to say, it wasn't worth saying anything. The only thing I can do now is repent and try to review everything I'm reading and enjoying now. I guess I also felt that of course these writers know they're wonderful! Admittedly, when a story is complete or I'm catching up and I'm hooked, the next arrow is still VERY tempting and I don't always review every chapter.
What I enjoy is reading good stories. Plotty, action, romance, angst...I'll read almost anything if it's written well. Some of the best have graphic sex scenes in them, and when they're done well, I like them. I would read a PWP from Nautibitz because she always has a fun story along with the smut. I've also read and enjoyed fics that have no sex at all but do have a fantastic plot and great writing.
As far as writing sex scenes, I haven't written a successful one yet! My attempts make me laugh, which is probably not a good sign! I know I'll never write one of the insert Tab A into Slot B ones with tons of fluids and graphic details, and I don't want to, but I'm hoping eventually I can do more than gloss over them briefly. I made my fics NC-17 because I'm unsure what the ratings stand for at various sites. I was thinking language and adult topics when I did it initially, but now I've read Rs that I thought, really? That's only R? Mine are probably PG then. I've started making my stories U where it's available because I'm unsure what they should be and don't want to mislead anyone.
Personally, any body parts "weeping", repetitious or unrealistic dialogue, overused phrases such as "tongues battling for dominance" (soooo sick of that one, no offense to anyone intended) all turn me off scenes but if the story's otherwise good I'll just skip ahead.
I recently got a review that said "I waited NINETEEN CHAPTERS for that kiss" castigating me for ending the chapter there and I wasn't sure whether it was hate mail or not. I'm leaning towards "yes" since it was signed "u_r_bad", LOL. Complaint about pacing, I guess. I feel bad disappointing people with a so far sexless story, but if I agonize over what I'm writing and try to force things I tend to get horrible writer's block.
This post soooo falls into the "Too Long Didn't Read" category now. Another reason I don't post. I ramble!
Jan 24 2008 08:35 pm #10Guest
Guest
There's a balance, I think. As a writer, I don't feel a sex scene should be added just for the hell of it, because then it comes across forced. I also don't think it should be a certain length (I've read some sex scenes that were just ridiculously long) just to make a word count. It should be natural, and Muse should be one's guide.
As mentioned above, Nauti Bitz is particularly good at maintaining that balance, and even if it's a PWP fic of hers, it doesn't come across as "too much!"
I don't recall who said it, but I disagree that sex in fiction, well, specifically involving a vampire of a hundred plus years, should be..."realistic." After a hundred years or so, I'd expect some type of technique to be flawless, lol. And I also feel that the whole point of reading fan fic should be to escape RL. However, if it's like an AU fic, and they're in high school, or something, I guess I'll take it. But...I still don't wanna read about pimply asses, too small penises, etc. That's not my bag.
Moderator
Ok, poll is up on the BSV lj-comm, 
bloodshedverse.
Link
In a few days, I'll let you know about the results here in the forum, that way you don't have to keep checking the comm.
bloodshedverse.Link
In a few days, I'll let you know about the results here in the forum, that way you don't have to keep checking the comm.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Well I guess it's obvious where I stand in this -- sex is neither a peeve nor a perk for me, it's a necessity, like breathing air. :D In fic and in life.
I'm not interested in reading anything below an R rating unless it's short, clever, and promises to be hilarious. And even though, in my own fic, I'm more concerned these days with building up sexual tension than detailing the act itself, that doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it constantly. (Seriously. If you knew how often I picture these two going at it in different places and positions and scenarios, you might be astounded. And possibly afraid for my mental health. I'm fine, I swear! I can stop anytime! *snorts another line of Spuffy*)
Also - I agree with you, Scarlet, that the point of reading fanfic is to escape RL. I've certainly written my fair share of fumbling, clothing getting stuck, beds (and tables) breaking, heads getting smacked on pavement and the injured party stopping to say "ow", then both taking a moment to laugh, because I think it adds a nice element of reality (and fun) to a sex scene, but I don't want to get too real -- unattractive visuals take away from the sexiness. So, it's safe to assume that Buffy won't be farting in my fic, ever. Unless she's farting sunshine and flowers, of course!
Thanks for the kind words, Slayme (and everyone else). Also:
With a penname like NautiBtitz
That's a new one! *giggles because I am twelve* *...but not really because that would be illegal*
xo,
NautiButtz
I'm not interested in reading anything below an R rating unless it's short, clever, and promises to be hilarious. And even though, in my own fic, I'm more concerned these days with building up sexual tension than detailing the act itself, that doesn't mean I'm not thinking about it constantly. (Seriously. If you knew how often I picture these two going at it in different places and positions and scenarios, you might be astounded. And possibly afraid for my mental health. I'm fine, I swear! I can stop anytime! *snorts another line of Spuffy*)
Also - I agree with you, Scarlet, that the point of reading fanfic is to escape RL. I've certainly written my fair share of fumbling, clothing getting stuck, beds (and tables) breaking, heads getting smacked on pavement and the injured party stopping to say "ow", then both taking a moment to laugh, because I think it adds a nice element of reality (and fun) to a sex scene, but I don't want to get too real -- unattractive visuals take away from the sexiness. So, it's safe to assume that Buffy won't be farting in my fic, ever. Unless she's farting sunshine and flowers, of course!
Thanks for the kind words, Slayme (and everyone else). Also:
With a penname like NautiBtitz
That's a new one! *giggles because I am twelve* *...but not really because that would be illegal*
xo,
NautiButtz
~ * ~ * ~ * ~
Start With A Slap by Sirena Wise
Book One of the SLAP/BANG duet
Adapted from the NautiBitz fanfic "Crave"
Available now on Amazon & Kindle Unlimited
sirenawise.com
Start With A Slap by Sirena Wise
Book One of the SLAP/BANG duet
Adapted from the NautiBitz fanfic "Crave"
Available now on Amazon & Kindle Unlimited
sirenawise.com
I forget which politician, but when people were trying to write laws about pornography, someone said: "I can't describe it, but I'd know it when I see it!" I feel that way about what is necessary and what is unnecessary sex. Sometimes there is a real reason that helps understand the characters or moves along the plot or shows their reaction to a very intimate experience or how they think of one another, but sometimes it throws off the narrative flow or goes out of character or any number of things, but there aren't many guidelines for what makes it an 'okay sex scene' and why it wouldn't be. Still, if it doesn't fit in teh story, I'll know it when I see it, but other than that, there are too many variables.
a fic of which I read a good portion some time ago, in which Spike’s rape of Buffy was something to which she semi-consented out of overwhelming guilt and a response to his very real grief. That one sort of worked for me because it was presented as an understandable reaction to very strong emotions from both characters. There also turned out to be a mystical reason for them having been brought together, it was kind of taken out of their hands.
Slaymesoftly, this fic you mentioned sounds really interesting to me. I love Spike rants and I'll bet his reaction to finding out a mystical power forced him to sleep with Buffy, or maybe even fall in love with her, will show us some great Big Bad temper tantrums. Could you please post what story and author you were referring to?
a fic of which I read a good portion some time ago, in which Spike’s rape of Buffy was something to which she semi-consented out of overwhelming guilt and a response to his very real grief. That one sort of worked for me because it was presented as an understandable reaction to very strong emotions from both characters. There also turned out to be a mystical reason for them having been brought together, it was kind of taken out of their hands.
Slaymesoftly, this fic you mentioned sounds really interesting to me. I love Spike rants and I'll bet his reaction to finding out a mystical power forced him to sleep with Buffy, or maybe even fall in love with her, will show us some great Big Bad temper tantrums. Could you please post what story and author you were referring to?
Great opening post. Typing "ditto" seems a bit lame, but it would be accurate. I have basically the same views when it comes to sex in fanfiction. When it comes to the NC17 rating I don't automatically assume sex is the issue. Violence is supposed to be included as part of what one is choosing a rating for in the first place, along with language and adult themes (whether they be sex, violence or just intense complex emotional scenes that minors wouldn't necessarily understand).
I tend to stick with good writers. If their writing happens to have a great deal of sex, then I read it. If it doesn't, I don't feel like I've been cheated or it's missing something. I have read a few fade to black sections that felt a bit awkward because it seems .... not sure of the right word. Silly, maybe? Not knocking any writer's choice to do that - especially if they aren't comfortable writing sex - but sex is part of life. Good writing usually lets the audience view all the sticky parts of life - sex, death, the limitations of the human body, etc. One of the best bits of fiction I ever read had a funny "where the hell is the toilet paper" scene that was not only comic relief but very revealing about the characters. (I want to say it was a sub-plot in a story and it was between Xander and Anya, but I'm drawing a blank on the main pairing or the story title/author.)
I guess for me whether or not it is a peeve or a perk depends on the writing. Mostly, I just want to read good stories. If I find myself skimming scene after scene of sexathons trying to get to the story itself then I tend to just give the back button a tap. When a good writer slaps the PWP label on a fic I'll read it because there's bound to be a story weaved in and around the sex.
~ Q
I tend to stick with good writers. If their writing happens to have a great deal of sex, then I read it. If it doesn't, I don't feel like I've been cheated or it's missing something. I have read a few fade to black sections that felt a bit awkward because it seems .... not sure of the right word. Silly, maybe? Not knocking any writer's choice to do that - especially if they aren't comfortable writing sex - but sex is part of life. Good writing usually lets the audience view all the sticky parts of life - sex, death, the limitations of the human body, etc. One of the best bits of fiction I ever read had a funny "where the hell is the toilet paper" scene that was not only comic relief but very revealing about the characters. (I want to say it was a sub-plot in a story and it was between Xander and Anya, but I'm drawing a blank on the main pairing or the story title/author.)
I guess for me whether or not it is a peeve or a perk depends on the writing. Mostly, I just want to read good stories. If I find myself skimming scene after scene of sexathons trying to get to the story itself then I tend to just give the back button a tap. When a good writer slaps the PWP label on a fic I'll read it because there's bound to be a story weaved in and around the sex.
~ Q
~ Q
Why worry about disappointing any reader - as a writer your concerned is for the aesthetics and the story you are creating. Most of the works I have read that really touched my heart and emotions all had a quality that came across as a writer working from a deep emotional connect to their characters and story. It is the conviction and interest that the writer has for their subject that make good works.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If you knew how often I picture these two going at it in different places and positions and scenarios, you might be astounded.
*Nods vigorously* Nauti you cannot imagine how many times a day I think of your Buffy and Spike getting it on either!!! :P
xxx
*Nods vigorously* Nauti you cannot imagine how many times a day I think of your Buffy and Spike getting it on either!!! :P
xxx
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Slaymesoftly, this you and me having the same brain thing sure does save time. :)
As a reader, I rarely ever pay attention to the rating of a fic when choosing something to read. (The only exception is if I'm specifically looking for something hot and sexy, in which case, I know which authors to go to, so it's not like I'm looking at a list of NC-17 fics and picking one at random.) If the fic ends up having no sex, sex every chapter, or nineteen chapters of build-up to one hot scene, it really doesn't matter to me, as long as it makes sense in the story. As I mentioned on the other thread, I don't come across many fics where the sex turns me off (either because it's poorly written or used gratuitously), because more than likely other things about the fic will make me hit the back button first.
As a writer, I was terrified of posting my first sex scene, and still don't write them that often, as I don't think I'm all that good at it. (Thinking back, in my first four Spuffy fics, there is a total of ONE kiss, and not a single sex scene.) I only use sex when it's absolutely necessary, and I don't think I could write a PWP if my life depended on it. :)
And I agree with Scarlet and Nauti about the idealized sex. I don't mind some fumbling or whatever once in a while, but if I wanted crappy sex, I have enough real life experience for that. I'd much rather read about the fantastic sex I wish I was having (and a guy we all wish we were having it with ;)). And I think you're right - after a hundred years of practice, Spike ought to be pretty frickin' good at it.
As a reader, I rarely ever pay attention to the rating of a fic when choosing something to read. (The only exception is if I'm specifically looking for something hot and sexy, in which case, I know which authors to go to, so it's not like I'm looking at a list of NC-17 fics and picking one at random.) If the fic ends up having no sex, sex every chapter, or nineteen chapters of build-up to one hot scene, it really doesn't matter to me, as long as it makes sense in the story. As I mentioned on the other thread, I don't come across many fics where the sex turns me off (either because it's poorly written or used gratuitously), because more than likely other things about the fic will make me hit the back button first.
As a writer, I was terrified of posting my first sex scene, and still don't write them that often, as I don't think I'm all that good at it. (Thinking back, in my first four Spuffy fics, there is a total of ONE kiss, and not a single sex scene.) I only use sex when it's absolutely necessary, and I don't think I could write a PWP if my life depended on it. :)
And I agree with Scarlet and Nauti about the idealized sex. I don't mind some fumbling or whatever once in a while, but if I wanted crappy sex, I have enough real life experience for that. I'd much rather read about the fantastic sex I wish I was having (and a guy we all wish we were having it with ;)). And I think you're right - after a hundred years of practice, Spike ought to be pretty frickin' good at it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 25 2008 01:49 am #19Guest
Guest
I'm old-fashioned by nature, so when I first started reading fic, and found that, at the time, it was quickly evident that the R and NC-17 writers also had the best plots.......it was read while blushing and skipping over until I saw dialogue again. I don't happen to like the graphic words, so I still substitute them for milder ones in my head.
I do write sex scenes, though they're rarely more than tame, and almost always because it's the logical conclusion for the characters at that time, if they're a new couple. With established couples, it's a bit different, because sometimes they're just horny. :D But yeah, most of the time, there isn't sex until the last chapter if I'm writing a romance fic.
Idealized sex doesn't really matter to me. As long as the scene fits, you know, then you can have the most perfect blah, blah, blah, or....a totally comedic situation. The button stuck, can't get the bra open, someone tripping over their shoes stuff is quite endearing. You just have to laugh when it doesn't go 100% right.
But I'm looking to read about relationships or plot arcs. I don't need sex in a fic at all, as long as the characters are coming together in the right way, it can have the "fade to black" scenes and leave it to my imagination.
CM
I do write sex scenes, though they're rarely more than tame, and almost always because it's the logical conclusion for the characters at that time, if they're a new couple. With established couples, it's a bit different, because sometimes they're just horny. :D But yeah, most of the time, there isn't sex until the last chapter if I'm writing a romance fic.
Idealized sex doesn't really matter to me. As long as the scene fits, you know, then you can have the most perfect blah, blah, blah, or....a totally comedic situation. The button stuck, can't get the bra open, someone tripping over their shoes stuff is quite endearing. You just have to laugh when it doesn't go 100% right.
But I'm looking to read about relationships or plot arcs. I don't need sex in a fic at all, as long as the characters are coming together in the right way, it can have the "fade to black" scenes and leave it to my imagination.
CM
Moderator
Ahhh... Slayme, where to start? *grin*
Speaking as a reader...
I think it can be a perk... and a peeve. There! Is that on the fence enough for you? LOL! But seriously. I've read stories (PWPs) just because I wanted a bit of escapism. A good PWP satisfies a kink and can be a quick cure all to a bad mood. That said, I've hit that little "x" button at the top of my browser many a times because of the overly descriptive and oftentimes crass use of words (think "manbeef" here). Good writing is good writing, whether PWP or long drawn out plots with a minimum of "teh sex."
OTOH, being sucked into a story because of an interesting plot also makes for a happy!Kat. Given the longevity of fandom, trying to find stories that are unique in plot - read: something I've not come across before - can be a daunting task. But, it's still being done, and rather well at that.
Like many others, I tend to wait for fics to be completed before I'll read them. When I start a story and get sucked into it, I become personally vested in the venture and I've been burned a few times by authors that lose interest or move on to other things/fandoms/etc. Not getting a conclusion to a story drives my virgo nature right out of my ever-loving mind! Also, because my free time is limited, I usually don't read new writers in the fandom unless they have been recommended by someone I know, or I come across them via judging for various award sites - my own included. Yes, I know, I'm bad. *sigh*
Speaking as a writer...
I remember having a debate with a former fanfic author who has since moved on to writing original fic that sex did not equal PWP, that you could develop a story with a well thought out plot, so much so, that the reader would barely even notice the sex when it occurred, or would see it as a natural progression in the relationship. Sex can very much be about the romance, the expression of love - or what you will.
As an adult, I tend to write for adults, or at least write with them in mind, so it's rare that my fics are not rated NC-17. I think the only times I've stuck with the PG13 is when I'm writing for someone else, usually as part of a ficathon.
I've used a combination of explicit description and "fade to black" moments. I think there's a balance; sometimes finding it can be difficult.
I don't write NC-17 with the intention of garnering reviews. Honestly, I think the few PGish fics I have written have received more than some of my more "adult" stories. Personally, I think reviews are based more on how active you are in fandom and the frequency/places one posts. I've never been about review counts or ratios or been upset because my chapter only got 5 while someone else's rated exponentially higher. Now, I won't say that reviews don't make me happy, but it's WHAT'S said, not how many times it's said that brings the idiot grin to my face. I've been writing fanfic for *counts* good lord! SIX years now, and I still get the warm fuzzies seeing someone say they were choked up, or laughed out loud by reading something I wrote. If just one person reads my stuff and got some enjoyment out of it, then I'm happy.
Erm, yeah... so. Writing sex scenes doesn't always equal reviews.
Good grief, I'm tangenting all over the place here. *sigh*
Long story short: PWP/sexless plot are equally good. Just give me credible situations and believable characters. Don't make things easy by making characters "disappear" because your story wouldn't be believable otherwise... prove to me that it can happen and I'll happily follow along, PWP or not. (And, I'm saying this as someone who has read just about every character pairing imaginable.)
Speaking as a reader...
I think it can be a perk... and a peeve. There! Is that on the fence enough for you? LOL! But seriously. I've read stories (PWPs) just because I wanted a bit of escapism. A good PWP satisfies a kink and can be a quick cure all to a bad mood. That said, I've hit that little "x" button at the top of my browser many a times because of the overly descriptive and oftentimes crass use of words (think "manbeef" here). Good writing is good writing, whether PWP or long drawn out plots with a minimum of "teh sex."
OTOH, being sucked into a story because of an interesting plot also makes for a happy!Kat. Given the longevity of fandom, trying to find stories that are unique in plot - read: something I've not come across before - can be a daunting task. But, it's still being done, and rather well at that.
Like many others, I tend to wait for fics to be completed before I'll read them. When I start a story and get sucked into it, I become personally vested in the venture and I've been burned a few times by authors that lose interest or move on to other things/fandoms/etc. Not getting a conclusion to a story drives my virgo nature right out of my ever-loving mind! Also, because my free time is limited, I usually don't read new writers in the fandom unless they have been recommended by someone I know, or I come across them via judging for various award sites - my own included. Yes, I know, I'm bad. *sigh*
Speaking as a writer...
I remember having a debate with a former fanfic author who has since moved on to writing original fic that sex did not equal PWP, that you could develop a story with a well thought out plot, so much so, that the reader would barely even notice the sex when it occurred, or would see it as a natural progression in the relationship. Sex can very much be about the romance, the expression of love - or what you will.
As an adult, I tend to write for adults, or at least write with them in mind, so it's rare that my fics are not rated NC-17. I think the only times I've stuck with the PG13 is when I'm writing for someone else, usually as part of a ficathon.
I've used a combination of explicit description and "fade to black" moments. I think there's a balance; sometimes finding it can be difficult.
I don't write NC-17 with the intention of garnering reviews. Honestly, I think the few PGish fics I have written have received more than some of my more "adult" stories. Personally, I think reviews are based more on how active you are in fandom and the frequency/places one posts. I've never been about review counts or ratios or been upset because my chapter only got 5 while someone else's rated exponentially higher. Now, I won't say that reviews don't make me happy, but it's WHAT'S said, not how many times it's said that brings the idiot grin to my face. I've been writing fanfic for *counts* good lord! SIX years now, and I still get the warm fuzzies seeing someone say they were choked up, or laughed out loud by reading something I wrote. If just one person reads my stuff and got some enjoyment out of it, then I'm happy.
Erm, yeah... so. Writing sex scenes doesn't always equal reviews.
Good grief, I'm tangenting all over the place here. *sigh*
Long story short: PWP/sexless plot are equally good. Just give me credible situations and believable characters. Don't make things easy by making characters "disappear" because your story wouldn't be believable otherwise... prove to me that it can happen and I'll happily follow along, PWP or not. (And, I'm saying this as someone who has read just about every character pairing imaginable.)
Jan 25 2008 02:11 am #21slaymesoftly
Moderator
LOL, Eowyn. It does, doesn't it?
The fic that I was referencing, Izzy, is called What Place is This by Megan/Peta and you can find it at http://resting.dark-solace.org/stories/place.htm. It is a wip, so I don't know about the rants. The very first parts are what I remember the best. It's a pretty dark fic,
u could develop a story with a well thought out plot, so much so, that the reader would barely even notice the sex when it occurred, or would see it as a natural progression in the relationship. Sex can very much be about the romance, the expression of love - or what you will. What you said, Kat! LOL
The fic that I was referencing, Izzy, is called What Place is This by Megan/Peta and you can find it at http://resting.dark-solace.org/stories/place.htm. It is a wip, so I don't know about the rants. The very first parts are what I remember the best. It's a pretty dark fic,
u could develop a story with a well thought out plot, so much so, that the reader would barely even notice the sex when it occurred, or would see it as a natural progression in the relationship. Sex can very much be about the romance, the expression of love - or what you will. What you said, Kat! LOL
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Jan 25 2008 02:12 am #22GoldenBuffy
I'm sleepy, lazy and, taking care of four sick kids. So all I can say is, 1) i agree with everything said by Slayme and,2) I suck at writing smut, but I do enjoy writing it and reading it. But if I want my story to have a good plot, some meat to it. And if there is only sex in it but no plot, then I will stop reading.
And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Jan 25 2008 03:11 am #23Immortal Beloved
Buffy won't be farting in my fic, ever. Unless she's farting sunshine and flowers, of course!
Good to know, Nauti :-) Yours is actually smutty fic that I quite enjoy. The sex is always creative, never harlequinesque, and there is always a plot. Even though there is lots of sex, I find that the sex is completely believable in the plot. Oh, and you're funny as all hell, too. :lol:
Another smutty author that I enjoy is Clawofcat. Cat has this incredibly unique writing style where the sex actually is the plot. She uses very inventive sexual situations as a vehicle for the characters to explore and discover things about themselves.
Good to know, Nauti :-) Yours is actually smutty fic that I quite enjoy. The sex is always creative, never harlequinesque, and there is always a plot. Even though there is lots of sex, I find that the sex is completely believable in the plot. Oh, and you're funny as all hell, too. :lol:
Another smutty author that I enjoy is Clawofcat. Cat has this incredibly unique writing style where the sex actually is the plot. She uses very inventive sexual situations as a vehicle for the characters to explore and discover things about themselves.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 25 2008 03:19 am #24goldenusagi
As a reader, I was shocked at first when I discovered exactly what Spike and Buffy were doing in NC-17 fics (it seems most people were). But it doesn't stop me from reading, or start me reading. Some fics, yes the gratuitous sex I scroll past after about the 3rd or 4th time they're doing it. But I usually read the first or second times. Unless of course I'm reading it just for the sex, which doesn't happen very often, because I want a plot too. I don't read or not read a story because of the rating, I read for the plot. If the plot has sex, fine, if it doesn't, fine.
As a writer, my first and only fanfic has my first and only sex scene, and since the fic was rated R, I kept it simple. I didn't fade to black, but didn't make it a whole chapter (or even half a chapter). Hopefully, it was hot enough even though it didn't have graphic descriptions. Besides not being sure of my NC-17 skillz, I didn't think that a heavy sex scene fit with the tone of the fic, if that makes sense.
As a writer, my first and only fanfic has my first and only sex scene, and since the fic was rated R, I kept it simple. I didn't fade to black, but didn't make it a whole chapter (or even half a chapter). Hopefully, it was hot enough even though it didn't have graphic descriptions. Besides not being sure of my NC-17 skillz, I didn't think that a heavy sex scene fit with the tone of the fic, if that makes sense.
Another smutty author that I enjoy is Clawofcat. Cat has this incredibly unique writing style where the sex actually is the plot. She uses very inventive sexual situations as a vehicle for the characters to explore and discover things about themselves.
I'm glad you mentioned me, IB, because this is the sort of thread I feel I need to weigh in on. Since I essentially make most of my fic livelihood off of coming up with smutty fare, sex is something that I ruminate on a lot. And IB is right when she says sex is the plot in my stories. Good scenes to me are those that reveal things about the inner workings of characters. Many people have mentioned already that smut can be difficult to write, and that the perfection and over-romanticization of the act can really take away from their enjoyment. For me writing sex is like writing dialogue. Just as plot and characterization are revealed through words, sex should do the same. When I embark on writing porn, I always approach it as an exchange. It's a give and take, and a conversation ensues in which the characters express things to each other that they may be incapable of explaining with words. That's the type of sex I like to read, and the type of sex I write.
Something that I occasionally struggle with as a writer is how to designate my fics. It's troubling for me that some assume long fics will have sex that progresses the plot, and short fics are simply PWPs. I pretty much exclusively write one-shots that often have very graphic depictions of sex, but these are not PWPs. Sex in fics definately is often thrown in for titilation and to hit kinks. And why not? Everyone likes a bit of dirtybadwrong sometimes (especially me!). But it's a talented writer, who through a sex scene, can make you think deeply about their characters. You have to consider motivation, emotional headspace, etc. and it's a skill unto itself to do that. Many great smut writers have already been mentioned above, such as Nauti and Herself. But for readers like JoJo who want imperfect sex, shameful sex, sex that isn't easy and maybe hurts and is emotionally painful for the characters then I highly recommend the work of only_passenger and snowpuppies. Sex can send you to soaring heights of ecstasy, but it can also be an expression of despair, of fear, sadness, solace, healing, hope. It can be so so many things depending on what strains of emotion you infuse it with.
So to readers and writers alike I say don't be afraid to go there - the non-comforting sex, the angst, the orgasms that just won't come, the sex that creates tears. As much as I'm a smut writer, I'm also an angst writer, and that little bit of emotional pain always does the trick for me. Like Slayme said, sex should not be the quick fix and if we think realistically about it, it's can just as easily be a carefree romp as an act full of regret.
As for whether it's a perk or a peeve...something that bothers me about sex in fics is a tendency toward hetero-normativity. Missionary is good and fine, but why not be creative? Why should Buffy be on bottom, why shouldn't Spike take it in the ass? Working outside the sexual box, so to speak, can make a fic really exciting. There's more to sexuality than just plain old intercourse, and I love sex scenes that tap into that. Some of the most intimate sexual acts don't require a penis going anywhere near a vagina, and kudos to any writer that takes on sexuality perhaps on the periphery of our minds.
Wow, that was a mouthful. *looks around bashfully* I don't usually speak up on the forum. But there's my two cents for ya.
Jan 25 2008 05:46 pm #26pfeifferpack
I look for plot and character in stories. When it comes to Spuffy sex will always show up in some way or other because of the nature of the relationship (like Xander and Anya before the wedding for that matter). If it flows from the story and character and isn't written in a lurid OR too cutsey way I read and love (and sometimes seek out) . Don't give me stupid euphemisms for body parts or their use and don't try to squig me out either and I'm happy.
Even my porn has to have some plot to it. I have some writers that always deliver (like Nauti and Holly for example).
Basically unless I am in a real horny mood I look for more than just hot sex and even then I prefer it with heart and in character.
I agree with every word you said Patti!
Kathleen
Moderator
Here are the results of the poll:
50 people voted
Yes, if the sex is gratious and disrupts the flow of the story.
17 (34.0%)
Since this was a poll where you can select more than one answer, here some additional details:
Eleven people selected only the "that really, really depends..." option, the rest combined it with one of the "Yes, ..." ones.
Of the three votes for "Nope, I like those scenes." and the three votes for "Skip? Are you crazy? ...", one person checked both options.
ladypeyton mentioned that whether she reads those scenes or not also depends on her mood. -- Good call, I really should have added that option to the poll.
I guess you can all interpret those results on your own, but I'd say it makes it pretty clear that gratuitous sex in a fic is not something most people are fond of, no matter how many fanthing-cries of "get to the smut already" we've seen on ff.net and similar sites. I for one would rather disappoint those 6% who read my fic looking for smut (they'd be better off reading PWP than plotty fics anyway), than have 34% of my readers skip whole scenes and possibly get too annoyed to continue reading.
I didn't fix the typos in the quote because I learned that you're not supposed to do that when you cite stuff. I just needed to mention that because damn, it was hard not to hide those. ;-)
50 people voted
Yes, if the sex is gratious and disrupts the flow of the story.
17 (34.0%)
Yes, if the story still makes sense without it. (Even if it wasn't really gratious.)
7 (14.0%)
Yes, if it is gratious. (Even if it doesn't disrupt the flow.)
5 (10.0%)
Yes, but only if it squicks me out. (Doesn't matter whether it's gratious, necessary, or whatever.)
8 (16.0%)
Nope, I never skip anything in a story.
8 (16.0%)
Nope, I like those scenes.
3 (6.0%)
Skip? Are you crazy? Those scenes are the reason I read fanfic in the first place!
3 (6.0%)
That really, really depends on the author and the quality of the writing.
24 (48.0%)
Since this was a poll where you can select more than one answer, here some additional details:
Eleven people selected only the "that really, really depends..." option, the rest combined it with one of the "Yes, ..." ones.
Of the three votes for "Nope, I like those scenes." and the three votes for "Skip? Are you crazy? ...", one person checked both options.
ladypeyton mentioned that whether she reads those scenes or not also depends on her mood. -- Good call, I really should have added that option to the poll.I guess you can all interpret those results on your own, but I'd say it makes it pretty clear that gratuitous sex in a fic is not something most people are fond of, no matter how many fanthing-cries of "get to the smut already" we've seen on ff.net and similar sites. I for one would rather disappoint those 6% who read my fic looking for smut (they'd be better off reading PWP than plotty fics anyway), than have 34% of my readers skip whole scenes and possibly get too annoyed to continue reading.
I didn't fix the typos in the quote because I learned that you're not supposed to do that when you cite stuff. I just needed to mention that because damn, it was hard not to hide those. ;-)
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
I missed the poll - but I would have voted with the "gratious and disrupts flow" -
I would suggests that "quality" is part of not having inserted unnecessary sex scenes in the first place
I would suggests that "quality" is part of not having inserted unnecessary sex scenes in the first place
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yeah, that's probably part of it... but on the other hand, if the quality of the writing isn't good in general, you might just quit reading altogether, whereas if the quality of the writing is excellent, but there's just too much sex, you might keeping reading but skim those parts. Also, you might be more likely to keep reading the sex scenes, even if they're gratuitous, if they're well-written, whereas if the sex is poorly written, you wouldn't want to read "insert tab A into slot B" sex over and over and might skip it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
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