BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

The Girl In Question... Scent?

Jan 27 2008 07:42 am   #1Guest
I just got finished watching "The Girl in Question" and something occurred to me.

I don't follow the comics but I know that Whedon decided that Buffy wasn't in Rome (where exactly was she supposed to be anyway)...

So why didn't Spike, with his vampire sense of smell, notice she wasn't really there?

He was able to sniff her out after they kicked her out of her house easily enough so why didn't Spike notice that "Buffy's" apartment didn't smell like her. If she was living there, her scent would be pretty strong.

There are BtVS books that were written before the comics came out that include her in Rome and with the Immortal. Since the people who wrote and published the books haven't been sued to high heaven, it's pretty clear that they got Joss' approval of their books.

So what do you guys think, did Whedon change his mind sometime between AtS S5 and the comics or what?
Jan 27 2008 07:51 am   #2Guest
I don't know if Whedon had planned for the other Buffy's when The Girl in Question aired. Possibly it was suppose to be Buffy when that episode aired, because I also find it a little hard to believe that Spike and Angel couldn't tell that girl wasn't Buffy.
Jan 27 2008 07:55 am   #3Scarlet Ibis
(my computer really sucks--just typed a whole long thing, and then of course, it disappears cause my computer sucks)

TGiQ is meant to be, IMHO, how all about Buffy it's not.  Angel also incorrectly describe's Buffy's eyes as blue, and Spike doesn't correct him.  This episode is about Spike and Angel, how they relate to one another, and frankly their relationship.  It's about them not losing the idea of Buffy to each other, and especially not the Stinky McStink Immortal.  Their focus and their agenda (Angel and Spike) isn't really about Buffy specifically, and they're distracted quite easily many times throughout the duration of the ep.  This episode was like reiterating every Spike and Angel moment we get to see that season, and then multiplying it by like fifty or something.  At the end, they talk about locking her away in a box, abandoning the idea, and then moving on.  But neither of them move--they probably just sit in Angel's office and talk some more.  Maybe reminisce about days of yore, the good times, and how much the Immortal sucked huge balls, even if he could get you cornered by the IRS for tax evasion. 

I really love that episode...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 27 2008 08:14 am   #4Eowyn315
I'm pretty sure the idea of the Buffy decoy only came up when the comics came about, simply because a Buffy who was retired and living it up with her immortal boyfriend in Rome would make for a really crappy story. They needed Buffy to still be involved in the action, and that was the route they chose (rather than, say, Buffy took a break, spent some time in Rome, and then went back to slaying). So, the Buffy in TGIQ was initially meant to be the real thing, but it couldn't be for the comics to work. It wouldn't be the first time Joss has changed his mind.

But yeah, I agree with Scarlet - TGIQ is entirely about Spike and Angel, and isn't really about Buffy at all.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 27 2008 09:57 am   #5Guest
I remember when that episode first came out the writers said that it had plausible deniability.  So it's possible that they planned to change things so that Buffy the warrior hadn't become the last part of the Immortal's hat trick in either books, comics or a movie.

Here's where I heard about the plausible deniability in a ficlet by pgavigan

http://lubakmetyk.infinology.net/others/gavigan/waiting.txt

I also recommend this by him

http://lubakmetyk.infinology.net/others/gavigan/letter.txt

It's also post tgiq

I think on both of them he was speaking for how a lot of people felt after that episode.

Jan 27 2008 10:59 am   #6SpikeHot

Wow, the writer must really hate Buffy. It makes me sad. Not hating Buffy, because everybody has their own favorites and least favorites, but his reasoning for being angry at her makes me sad.

Buffy isn't allowed to have fun. Buffy isn't allowed to have a life away from Angel or Spike. Buffy isn't allowed to be angry with Spike for hiding his return from her. Buffy should be one working machine, always there for others but never for herself. It makes me sad.

Despite the fact that Angel was the one who left Buffy in the first place. Despite the fact that Buffy didn't know that Spike was back. And if she did, I'm most certain she'd know that Spike was hiding the truth from her, so why should she throw herself at him if he didn't want her to know?  Even though it was shown that Buffy didn't date anyone since Spike's death, I seriously see nothing wrong if she did. Hello! Spike is dead. Life goes on! So it's okay for Spike to jump Harmony and Buffy just can't shag whoever she wanted? She's a free single woman. She can do whatever she wants.

Character bashing always gets me defensive. I think I should've done what the warning said.

Jan 27 2008 02:09 pm   #7Guest

I don't think he hates Buffy. The scenarios mentioned were from actual stories written after tgiq. I know because I read part of one of them (the one where Buffy wanted them to help the Immortal and didn't want his past brought up ) .He was actually mocking the    stories.

Both of the stories were pointing out all the things that didn't make sense to a lot of people, like Buffy suddenly saying that she didn't trust Angel , Giles' refusal to help Fred.

Quite frankly the shows writers left a lot   of people with a bad taste in thier mouths regarding Buffy. I thought thier characterization was off.

I liked his explanation in waiting for gordo though.That Buffy was suddenly free of all her responsibilities after years of being tied down and she reacted by going in a completely different direction from General Buffy.

 

Jan 27 2008 05:52 pm   #8LindsayH
I thought it made a lot of sense for Buffy to go live it up in Rome.  A)Girl needed a break!  B) Obviously, the Immortal has a few things in common with people in Buffy's past (maybe those two jealous vamps who "saw" her in Rome)  and C) Sometimes when you move past something painful, either in situation or location, you just don't want anything to do with it.  So, from the standpoint of pre-comics, she was taking a break and relaxing for the first time in years--nearly a decade.  And for nearly the same reason that Spike didn't go rushing back to her, Buffy also didn't want to go immediately back into the whole mess.  Maybe she liked being her own person.

As to the scent thing, that's why they call them plot holes.  Don't step in them, cause you'll fall through.  Or (as I go ahead and step in the plot hole anyway) if the Council wanted to make the decoy pass any suspicion, wouldn't a glamour spell work?  Not a full-fledged one, obviously, because they were looking for girls who kinda looked like Buffy anyway, but I don't know, a smell glamour?  A mystical sachet the decoy could hang in her closet in case she might encounter someone who used to know Buffy?  I have no idea.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Jan 27 2008 05:56 pm   #9Eowyn315
If those stories are supposed to be humor or satire... not so much.

I don't think it's that hard to understand why Buffy, Giles, and everyone would stop trusting Angel. He, who claimed to be a champion for good, was now the CEO of an evil law firm. His OWN TEAM wasn't even sure he could be trusted at times (remember the "Power Play" confrontation? All the times they questioned whether they were actually doing the right thing?). Maybe he had his reasons for doing it, but from the outside, I have no trouble seeing how it didn't look good. It looked like Angel sold out for money and power, a corner office, and a fleet of shiny cars. And let's be honest - he DIDN'T do it primarily to destroy W&H from the inside, or to use their resources for good. He did it to save Connor.

And for all Angel's sacrifice, I'm still not convinced that anything good truly came out of it - he was never able to harness the power of the firm for good, and he ended up getting an entire city sent to hell.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 27 2008 06:30 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis
Angel's agenda was to save his son.  I'm not gonna demonize him (really, no pun intended) for that.  And let's face it--none of his friends were children.  They didn't have to go with him to W&H.  In fact, they were out to the W&H limo before Angel was.  None of them were psychics, and therefore, none of them could see the badness that was going there.  Cordy's vision to Angel in that kiss from the "Powers that are Rarely there to help, and when they do, they just muck it up" was not very useful either in that regard.

ETA: If Angel hadn't become the head of W&H, he wouldn't have had access to the amulet, which was ultimately the crucial factor in actually closing the Sunnydale Hellmouth for good.

Anyway, clearly the essay is in regard to fan fics that have Buffy want Spike and Angel to help her help the Immortal in some form or fashion.  I have been lucky enough to avoid such fictions, but my god, why do they even  exist?  That plot makes no kind of sense to me whatsoever.  And hypothetically, if that was Buffy in TGiQ, I could definitely see the ridiculousness of that scenario.  Angel excluded, I could see where Spike would have the moral high ground in respect to his and Buffy's relationship of season seven (it is true that he was the only on her side after she was exiled from her own home, gave her the strength to get the weapon that helped her "defeat" the First, defended her to her friends, went through all kinds of personality changes just to please her, etc., and who cares if he got cold feet going out to find her after his resurrection?  Maybe she should have sought him out for a change.). 

This is not to say "Buffy should not be dating." 

No, this is to say that she should most certainly not be dating the Immortal. 

If that had really been her, which we were to all have assumed at the time in which the ep aired, and completely excluding the comics, there's no way anyone can tell me that the Buffy, or one of her friends at the very least, did not investigate the unsoulled vampire pursuing her, to know of his history and who is exactly in it.  Surely, Angel and Spike's (or Angelus, rather) names would've come up, as would Darla and Drusilla's--her two former lovers' lovers at the time.  Wouldn't it be logical to assume he, the Immortal, knew of her history with the vampires he clearly doesn't like, and she is being used as some kind of pawn or whatever so he could screw with Angel and Spike's heads some more?  What would be the point, of all the young men, or hell, older men in Italy, of choosing the Immortal?  Knowing what I assume is probably she definitely found out about his past, it does come off as a big ass "fuck you, Angel and Spike."

ETA: That was hypothetical, of course.  I'm one of those people who's following the s8 comics.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 27 2008 07:31 pm   #11SpikeHot

Following season eight, we discover that Buffy didn't date anyone since Sunnydale. She dedicated herself to the mission completely, isolating herself from society.

If the plot with The Immortal was canon, we still wouldn't have known why Buffy was with him. How did they meet? How's their relationship exactly? Maybe it was a date like the one with Wood in First Date, she only did it to discover The Immortal secret. No one knows.

I'm following the season eight canon on this one, it's starting to get interesting after issue ten.

Jan 27 2008 09:18 pm   #12slaymesoftly
Ah, plot holes, thy name is Joss. :)  As far as the scenting Buffy thing goes though, in the club I suspect it was too crowded and full of dancing sweaty people for scent to carry well. Neither of the vamps got very close to "Buffy" (and the camera, minus a SMG to focus on, only shows the back of her head). Can't answer for the apartment except to say that Spike and Angel were concerned about other things and probably didn't even notice if it did or didn't smell like Buffy.  Not that I want to fill in Joss's plot holes for him, but I can think of work-arounds.  I suspect, though, that since it was Angel's show and Buffy was over, he wasn't really concerned with how he presented her or who she was dating. It was the effect on Angel and Spike that was important.  And he probably wasn't even thinking much about the comics yet.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Jan 27 2008 09:28 pm   #13SpikeHot

The vampire sense of smell/hear has always been used when convenient. Just like Buffy sensing vampires was only used when convenient.

It sucks when your favorite show isn't perfect.

Jan 28 2008 12:27 am   #14Guest
It sucks when your favorite show isn't perfect.

Yes, yes, it does :nod:  As much time as we spend analyzing the characters' every move, I'm sure that not even Joss looked at things as closely as we do.  It's impossible to see every flaw, especially when it's your own work.  I, too, have wondered why Spike and Angel didn't notice that Buffy's apartment didn't smell like Buffy.  I'm sure that a nightclub crowded with sweaty people would mask anybody's scent, but I would assume that the place where one eats, sleeps, bathes, and breaths would hold a trace of one's sent, even when one was not there.  You can explain it away in many ways.  Magic being the most obvious.  Why have a world with magic if you can't use it to cover up the plot holes?  :-)

As for TGiQ...You know, I often read about how other viewers see the characters' actions as being out of character.  To me, however, I've never seen anything that they do to be completely implausible based on their current circumstances at the time.  That is, until I saw TGiQ.  Would Buffy date a centuries old guy who may or may not be evil?  Yes.  Would she turn away from her duty and take a sabatical?  Yes.  But she always--always--comes back to it.  Buffy definitely needs a man who is a bit more than human, someone who can understand her lot in life.  But I don't see it being the Immortal.  Despite Buffy's necropheliac tendencies, to me, she always seemed to be more attracted to the man inside those vampires.  Granted, we never actually see the Immortal; we don't know his personality, his habits.  But I just don't see Buffy living the high life in Rome, especially with the Immortal, and that has nothing to do with my Spuffy shipperness.  I could see her with Riley before I could see her with the Immortal, and we all know how well their relationship turned out :-P

So, when I read the first few pages of the Season 8 comics, I breathed a sigh of relief: Buffy was not with the Immortal, indeed.  I don't know if the idea for the decoy Buffy's only sprouted out of the new comic series or if Joss had it planned that way all along, but for me, it made a whole hell of a lot more sense :-P
Jan 28 2008 12:27 am   #15Guest
It sucks when your favorite show isn't perfect.

Yes, yes, it does :nod:  As much time as we spend analyzing the characters' every move, I'm sure that not even Joss looked at things as closely as we do.  It's impossible to see every flaw, especially when it's your own work.  I, too, have wondered why Spike and Angel didn't notice that Buffy's apartment didn't smell like Buffy.  I'm sure that a nightclub crowded with sweaty people would mask anybody's scent, but I would assume that the place where one eats, sleeps, bathes, and breaths would hold a trace of one's sent, even when one was not there.  You can explain it away in many ways.  Magic being the most obvious.  Why have a world with magic if you can't use it to cover up the plot holes?  :-)

As for TGiQ...You know, I often read about how other viewers see the characters' actions as being out of character.  To me, however, I've never seen anything that they do to be completely implausible based on their current circumstances at the time.  That is, until I saw TGiQ.  Would Buffy date a centuries old guy who may or may not be evil?  Yes.  Would she turn away from her duty and take a sabatical?  Yes.  But she always--always--comes back to it.  Buffy definitely needs a man who is a bit more than human, someone who can understand her lot in life.  But I don't see it being the Immortal.  Despite Buffy's necropheliac tendencies, to me, she always seemed to be more attracted to the man inside those vampires.  Granted, we never actually see the Immortal; we don't know his personality, his habits.  But I just don't see Buffy living the high life in Rome, especially with the Immortal, and that has nothing to do with my Spuffy shipperness.  I could see her with Riley before I could see her with the Immortal, and we all know how well their relationship turned out :-P

So, when I read the first few pages of the Season 8 comics, I breathed a sigh of relief: Buffy was not with the Immortal, indeed.  I don't know if the idea for the decoy Buffy's only sprouted out of the new comic series or if Joss had it planned that way all along, but for me, it made a whole hell of a lot more sense :-P
Jan 28 2008 12:29 am   #16Immortal Beloved
That double post was me.  Didn't realize that I wasn't logged in :blush:
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 28 2008 01:26 am   #17Guest
owenthurman  (lj) came up with an explananation for the scent thing.It involved a poor baby Slayer who had to squeeze out Buffy's sweat laden excercise clothes. That would take care of the apartment..And at the club there was definitely too many sweaty people.Spike found Buffy when she was kicked out on a calm free of wind night in a town that was deserted except for a bunch of people holed up in Buffy's house.

While I don't think it's strange that Giles' doesn't trust Angel following his taking over W+H, I do think it's strange that he makes no move to help him. After all Angel knows Giles doesn't trust him for various reasons yet he's desperate enough to call him. Take that desperation, add in that it's a problem Angel's new resources couldn't solve and think about the fact that since W+H is involved it could be world devastating and Giles should have least sent someone to investigate.
Jan 28 2008 01:37 am   #18nmcil
I really like GinQ - it is one of those episode that viewers pretty much either love or hated - Seeing Dru and Spike in those wonderful 60's or early 70's clothes was the highlight of the episode for me.  And Angel in that jacket, also very neat plus all that Politically Incorrect Gypsy denigration and that great W&H Italian CEO - nice indeed.  Aside from all the funny stuff and our two favs vamps adventure in Rome - behind all the smiles and funnies we are left with Angel and Spike having to face that the love of their lives is gone - that Buffy, as all human,  must and will eventually change and move forward with their lives.  Angel and Spike both must face that their heartache over Buffy - and for Spike even more heartache as all their potential relationship seems to be going further and further away from him, plus he also has made the choice not to communicate with her.

As far as canon and what viewers were left with - all we know is that Angel and Spike went to Rome, they went to Buffy's home, Andrews answers the door, Andrew tell them his commentary on Buffy, her relationship with The Immortal, Angel and Spike see a woman at the club that we presume to be Buffy -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 03:57 am   #19Eowyn315
Angel's agenda was to save his son. I'm not gonna demonize him (really, no pun intended) for that.

I'm not, either... I'm just saying it's easy to see how, from the outside, to people who had no idea who Connor was before the mindwipe, it'd be logical to conclude that Angel had gotten himself into some bad shit and wasn't to be trusted. And when he ended up getting L.A. sucked into hell, well, it kinda looks like maybe they might have been right. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and it wasn't obvious at the time that Angel would end up making things worse, but it does go some way to showing that Giles and co. weren't entirely off their rockers when they concluded Angel's exploits would lead to no good.

the unsoulled vampire pursuing her

It's never specified that the Immortal is a vampire, nor, I believe, is it stated that he's soulless. He's just immortal, and "may or may not be evil."

Surely, Angel and Spike's (or Angelus, rather) names would've come up, as would Darla and Drusilla's--her two former lovers' lovers at the time.

Not necessarily. The Immortal was obviously their sworn enemy, but I got the impression that the two of them were barely a blip on the Immortal's radar. And give the *cough* accuracy of the Council's records in regards to the Fanged Four and on vampires in general, it wouldn't surprise me if any research done on the Immortal's history was spotty at best. And if the Immortal was just using Buffy to stick it to Angel and Spike, he surely wouldn't tell her about it, so she might never find out.

Would Buffy date a centuries old guy who may or may not be evil? Yes. Would she turn away from her duty and take a sabatical? Yes. But she always--always--comes back to it.

TGIQ is no more than a year after "Chosen" (more like six or seven months, I'd say, given that Angel s5 started almost immediately after "Chosen" ), and Andrew gives the impression that she started out working for the new Council, and then chose to settle in Rome, where she had been looking for new Slayers. What makes you think she's not just taking a sabbatical and won't go back to the Council at some point (or, in fact, is still working for the Council, but with less responsibility)?

Despite Buffy's necropheliac tendencies, to me, she always seemed to be more attracted to the man inside those vampires.

Maybe that's exactly why she's with the Immortal. Like I said, no one ever claims he's a vampire - he could be some kind of demon. He may have the, well, immortality, as well as other vampire-like attributes, like strength and speed and stamina, without the actually being a walking corpse part. In other words, just what Buffy is looking for in a man.

It involved a poor baby Slayer who had to squeeze out Buffy's sweat laden excercise clothes.

Wow. That's just gross.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 29 2008 05:23 am   #20Guest
A flaw in the sweaty clothes theory, though - remember going to your grandparents' house as a kid and knowing this place was instantly "Grandma and Grandpa" just from one breath inside the door? Your place you live smells like you for all sorts of reasons - it's a combination of scents, in the detergent you use, the cleaning products, your natural scent, all the scented products you might use on your body, the items you've collected in your home......it's the sum that says "you". If Buffy was supposed to be living there, then the apartment would have to encompass everything a scent can say that's "Buffy". And since it's only been months for Spike since he was immersed in her house, he'd know right off. And the thing about magic is, supernatural beings can usually sense its presence even when it's masking something. Just about every mythology has magic leaving a smell, taste, or tingle.....

I love the episode for the humor, but the Buffy-related stuff has MASSIVE plot holes.

CM
Jan 29 2008 10:43 am   #21Maggie2
I'm not, either... I'm just saying it's easy to see how, from the outside, to people who had no idea who Connor was before the mindwipe, it'd be logical to conclude that Angel had gotten himself into some bad shit and wasn't to be trusted. And when he ended up getting L.A. sucked into hell, well, it kinda looks like maybe they might have been right. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, and it wasn't obvious at the time that Angel would end up making things worse, but it does go some way to showing that Giles and co. weren't entirely off their rockers when they concluded Angel's exploits would lead to no good.

Angel being with W&H was definitely a reason to be suspicious.  What seems out of character is that Buffy would just assume the worst and not bother to find out more or try to intervene to get him back to the side of the good.  Since when does Buffy just write off people that she trusts like that?  I'm hoping that the comics offer up some kind of explanation for that.
Jan 29 2008 11:27 am   #22SpikeHot
I'd also like to see Giles' side on why he didn't help Angel save Fred.
Jan 29 2008 04:33 pm   #23Guest
Giles has had some kind of lobotomy since season seven, so I'm not surprised.  Willow's an adult, and on top of that, a friggin' goddess.  She could have made the call to help Angel or not herself.

And from the outside of Angel joining W&H, I agree with Maggie.  Just writing Angel off without even knowing why he did it is strange.  Especially since he was the one to give her the amulet that helped save the day in the first place.  But then again, maybe she's just bitter cause the amulet offed Spike.  On the other hand, Angel told her it was volatile, and offered to wear it himself before she sent him packing to be her just in case second front.  Yeah, in conclusion, not finding out why he became CEO, and sending their most expendable second string Scooby to retrieve Dana is all very questionable.
Jan 29 2008 04:34 pm   #24Guest
That was me--Scarlet.  Forgetting to sign in again...
Jan 29 2008 05:33 pm   #25SpikeHot
Willow's an adult, and on top of that, a friggin' goddess.  She could have made the call to help Angel or not herself.

According to Season Eight, Giles was right. Willow went missing for a year and no one knew where she was and what was she up to.
Jan 29 2008 09:51 pm   #26Guest
Yeah, if they thought Angel was so bad, then why didn't they go stop him, pull him out, whatever? If you think he's an enemy to the world now, you don't just leave him there.

Sloppy writing again.
Jan 29 2008 09:58 pm   #27Guest
According to Season Eight, Giles was right. Willow went missing for a year and no one knew where she was and what was she up to.

Gee, how convenient... anyone wanna take bets on whether or not Joss just did that so Giles wouldn't be the total bastard he came off as in the Angel S5?

Come to think of it, did anything regarding the cast of BtVS we saw in season 5 of angel carry over to the comics? The Buffy we see really a decoy and Giles wasn't being the same self-righteous bastard that helped Wood try to murder Spike, he "really couldn't help them" (Ignoring Andrew's gleeful announcement that none of them no longer trusted the Fang Gang)

It sounds to me like Joss reconned (i think that's the term) a bunch between the time Angel ended and when he started writing the comics. Especially since my local bookstore has BTVS books that place Buffy in Rome with the Immortal.

Arrg... I stopped trying to fill in the Grand Canyon sized plot holes between the tv series and those comics.

-DmD
Jan 30 2008 12:25 am   #28Guest
Oh, you're right - Joss retconned a lot on these comics. I lost a bit of respect for him as a writer once he started undoing all the important decisions and events that happened during the seasons - like Warren no longer dead?! WTF!

CM
Jan 30 2008 12:36 am   #29Eowyn315
Since when does Buffy just write off people that she trusts like that?

We don't know that Buffy herself wrote him off. Giles was the one who refused to help Fred, and Andrew was the one who said no one trusted Angel. Andrew claims to be speaking for Buffy, but we know how Andrew likes to, um, bend the truth. I could easily see him using Buffy's name just to a.) make himself seem more important, and b.) stop Angel from calling her directly.

I'd also like to see Giles' side on why he didn't help Angel save Fred.

Probably because he didn't know Fred, he didn't know what Angel was up to, and messing around with an Old One while Angel was at Wolfram & Hart sounded sketchy enough to trip Giles' internal alarm. Also, at that point, Fred was gone, so it's not like his refusal actually doomed her or anything. It was just an insult to Angel.

Willow's an adult, and on top of that, a friggin' goddess. She could have made the call to help Angel or not herself.

No, she couldn't, if she was on an astral plane and out of communication, as Giles said she was.

sending their most expendable second string Scooby to retrieve Dana is all very questionable.

He may be a second-string Scooby, but he does apparently carry some weight, as he's managing his own squad of Slayers in the comics. And from a meta point of view, Andrew was the only character who could pull off that role in "Damage." Thoughts from TWoP:

"Here are a couple of reasons why Andrew worked better than any other Scooby crossover would have, unless you totally rewrite the episode. Someone had to go out after [Spike], or teamed up with him, in order to report that he'd been captured or dusted. Would Xander have gone chasing after [Spike]? Or Willow, or Faith? And then that same person had to run back to Wolfram & Hart to report that [Spike] had been captured or dusted. Again, I don't think Xander would have cared, and anyone else would have kept on trying to find Dana without going back for reinforcements. Andrew's the only one I'd accept doing both of those things."

"That scene [the one when Andrew takes Dana away] is the other reason why Andrew worked better than anyone else. I don't think Angel would have argued with Giles at all. And the other Scoobies would have been nicer. And, quite possibly, Giles sent Andrew instead of someone who knew Angel for that very reason. Except Xander, but seriously... I think Angel would be willing to take on a bunch of Slayers just for the opportunity to beat up Xander."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 30 2008 12:40 am   #30Eowyn315
like Warren no longer dead?! WTF!

Joss admitted that was a mistake - I think he just forgot about Warren appearing as the First. But since the First took the form of both Buffy and Spike, there's nothing preventing Warren from having died and been brought back to life, or being "undead" because of Amy's magic.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 30 2008 12:51 am   #31Guest
Oh, you're right - Joss retconned a lot on these comics. I lost a bit of respect for him as a writer once he started undoing all the important decisions and events that happened during the seasons - like Warren no longer dead?! WTF!

How they hell does someone survive being flayed and then incinerated!?

I lost alot respect for Joss the moment the soap-opera-esq bathroom scene aired in Seeing Red,the comics just finished the job. Knowing girls who've been raped in real life, I found their entire, abismal, portrayal of such a serious subject utterly appalling. "You tried to rape me Spike just a couple hours ago! Will you please babysit my little sister for me in your isolated crypt?" [shakes head sadly] The old "chip" excuse about Dawn not being in any possible danger by the unstable vampire, I know a dozen ways to subdue a weaker opponent without causing them any pain and I've never even had any special lessions.

-DmD
Jan 30 2008 02:11 am   #32Scarlet Ibis

No, she couldn't, if she was on an astral plane and out of communication, as Giles said she was.

When the ep first aired, it was assumed, especially due to Angel's frustrated reaction, that Giles was full of crap when he said that.  I think that's something else Joss just changed at the last second to suit his purposes for the comics (like Willow and Dawn being so close--what the hell?)

And I disagree with TWoP--Xander would have worked fine (though I did love Andrew in that ep).  Xander has saved Spike's life without needing a reason, or even liking him.  The two of them worked and lived together just several months before.  Xander would have *gladly* followed Spike out of W&H, if only to get a reprieve from Angel and Wes (I am sure that he liked Spike more than those two--even with the whole Anya debacle.  Clearly, he was at peace with the whole thing by season seven).  Would Xander go back to Angel for backup once Spike was kidnapped?  I see no reason why not.  Xander went through a lot of changes and became more of an adult, and I don't think he's getting credit for it.  Sure, he wouldn't have hugged Spike in wonder, and the whole thing would have to be altered to Xander's voice, but the gist of the guest starring character from Andrew to him wouldn't have been such a great trial they're making it out to be.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 30 2008 09:47 am   #33nmcil
I loved Andrew in that episode and considering that they wanted some distance from Spike on Buffy and Spike on Angel it was a good choice to use Andrew.  Plus, Tom Lenk, is so very good at doing all the "geeky guy" comedy;  he gave them the opportunity to  try a little humor with the Masterpiece Theatre bit again.  Andrew works great contrasted to Spike and he worked really well with their ending of Damaged. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 30 2008 10:35 am   #34SpikeHot
Come to think of it, did anything regarding the cast of BtVS we saw in season 5 of angel carry over to the comics?

The only information we know about the Scoobys are ones told by Andrew, the storyteller, the lier. His loyalty comes to Giles first, and if Giles doesn't trust Angel anymore, there's no need for Andrew who had never met Angel to trust him. Same goes for Spike, who's working for Angel now. All the stories Andrew told are fake to get eyes away from the Scoobys who are followed by the goverment. The Scoobys are terreists in the goverment eyes, so giving their exact location to anyone is out.

Giles' phone call with Angel shows how much he disapproves of Angel's actions, and while it's true that Willow wasn't around at that time, even if she was, Giles won't help Angel, because accodring to Giles, Angel is a betrayer.

Warren died. The First can take shape of anyone who was dead. Warren did. There was no way a human would walk and talk skinless, and Warren himself said that "Bored now" was the last thing he heard in his human life.
Jan 30 2008 07:28 pm   #35Guest
The only information we know about the Scoobys are ones told by Andrew, the storyteller, the lier. His loyalty comes to Giles first,

I don't go by the comics due to the massive amount of retconning,

The andrew we see on the show is downright pathetic, he's submissive to whatever dominant figure he latches.

He's a joke, remember how he was after murdering Jonathon, his best friend. It seems like he has real trouble differentiating between story and fact, latching onto fiction when he doesn't like the fact. Again, remember how he tried to make up Jonathan being possessed and attacking him, rather than the cold-blooded murder he committed?

Again, I don't like the comics, not when they go against not only the series but several BtVS books that published before the comics. He approved the basic plot (at minimum) for those books and got paid royalties for them. But he just throws that out and starts retconning... Very sloppy.
Jan 31 2008 03:04 am   #36Guest
Actually, Joss doesn't own the rights to the books. 20th C Fox does. They publish them and don't require the authors to be that familiar with the Buffyverse.

Varin.
Jan 31 2008 03:33 am   #37Eowyn315
How they hell does someone survive being flayed and then incinerated!?

The way it was explained is that Amy had about four seconds after Willow flayed Warren to use her magic to keep him alive. Of course, since we know Warren had to actually die in order to be seen as the First, I'd say he probably died and then Amy brought him back with magic and just didn't tell him he died. The incineration was apparently Amy's doing, not Willow's - it was a "flash-paper disappearing trick" so that Amy could magic Warren away from there.
When the ep first aired, it was assumed, especially due to Angel's frustrated reaction, that Giles was full of crap when he said that.

Well, since we only have Angel's reaction, we only know that Angel thought Giles was full of crap. That doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't telling the truth. Different perspectives, is all.
Again, I don't like the comics, not when they go against not only the series but several BtVS books that published before the comics.

I won't argue that there are some inconsistencies with the show, but the books aren't and never have been canon. They don't hold any more weight than fanfic in terms of whether or not something in the comics contradicts them.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 04:49 am   #38Guest
Actually, Joss doesn't own the rights to the books. 20th C Fox does. They publish them and don't require the authors to be that familiar with the Buffyverse.

Unless Joss has sold the rights to entire idea of the TV series "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" he gets royalties for the books. 20th C Fox may publish the books but he's still the writer and creator of the TV series. Unless his lawyers were complete morons, he has (at least) some control over basic plot points of the books. For example, individual authors of books can't just arbitrarily kill off main characters, turn someone evil, etc.

Angel, and books before the comics place Buffy in Rome, and then the comics say that's really a decoy. That's just a very sloppy bit a retconning for Joss to do. It also brings into question his integrity as an author because he's accepted money for the books and then he turns around and makes those books pure crap that has no place in the BtVS universe. I imagine that those book writers were none too happy with him for turning their hard work into trash and hurting the sales from a work they worked hard to write and publish (I can see alot of people walking into a bookstore, reading the summary, saying "this is crap, the comics say that..." and then not buy the book when they might have bought it otherwise)

I won't argue that there are some inconsistencies with the show, but the books aren't and never have been canon. They don't hold any more weight than fanfic in terms of whether or not something in the comics contradicts them.

Yeah, but Joss has to approve the books in order for them to be published as official "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" books because he owns the whole concept/idea of the show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Approval requires that he gets the basic plots (at bare minimum), and then they have to pay royalties to him. Otherwise it copyright infringement and they get their butts sued off.

Look up the book "Queen of the Slayers" the summary will show that the entire book is about Buffy being in Rome and dating the Immortal. That's a hell of alot more than the expected "some inconsistencies" and the publish date places it well before the comics.
Jan 31 2008 05:14 am   #39Eowyn315
20th C Fox may publish the books but he's still the writer and creator of the TV series. Unless his lawyers were complete morons, he has (at least) some control over basic plot points of the books.

I know next to nothing about the books, but we had this discussion on another thread, and someone mentioned that there is a list of "dos and don'ts" basically, that authors must adhere to - but that it came from 20th Century Fox, not from Joss. Even if he did have some input on the list, Joss doesn't get to sign off on the books themselves. Don't assume that he has approval just because he created "Buffy." The copyrights are held by 20th Century Fox. Hell, he didn't even have the last word on the TV show. He still had to get approval from the network. 
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 05:28 am   #40Guest

The copyrights are held by 20th Century Fox. Hell, he didn't even have the last word on the TV show. He still had to get approval from the network.

That's rather pitful - how the heck did Joss lose the copyrights for his creation?

Jan 31 2008 05:34 am   #41Scarlet Ibis
It happens more often than not, so I hear.  Losing one's copyrights in some form or fashion. The woman who created the Cheetah Girls, which spawned all types of revenue, only got $180,000 for her characters, her plot and idea, and nothing more.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 31 2008 05:44 am   #42Eowyn315
I think it has more to do with the way television works. Even though it's Joss' idea, it's the production company and the network that are putting all the money into the show, so in essence, it's *their* show. Joss just worked for them. I'm sure Joss has a deal with 20th Century Fox so that he gets residuals, but that doesn't mean he gets the final word on all products that are released in the Buffy franchise. That's what makes the season 8 comics so different - the fact that Joss is hands on, just as involved in them as he was in the TV show. He's never had that level of involvement in any other Buffy-related media or merchandise. Not the previous comics, not the novels, not the action figures or the board game or the trading cards, etc.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 07:47 am   #43nmcil

20th Century Fox also is the final word on what goes into a Buffy novels - all the author have to submit the story plan - and if 20th Century Fox does not like what they see - it mus be changed or the author has to give up on the project - 

Do the majority of readers of the novels actually care about how much the story follows the series - probably not. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 10:10 am   #44SpikeHot
Again, I don't like the comics, not when they go against not only the series but several BtVS books that published before the comics. He approved the basic plot (at minimum) for those books and got paid royalties for them. But he just throws that out and starts retconning... Very sloppy.

I don't think it was ever mentioned that the books were canon. They're just for fun. These season eight comics, however, were stated by Joss to be canon. It's up to fans to accept them or not. I know a good number of Spike/Buffy writers, one of them is a personal favorite, who don't accept the UPN years as canon, and canon stopped with Buffy's death in The Gift.

The show has always been full of retcons, not just this season, and this season still has the chance to improve, but the old seasons don't, sadly. I'm enjoying the ride so far. Good to have Buffy back, and good to have new material of stories: Herself has used the season eight canon with Buffy living in Scotland in a castle. Hope we see more Spike/Buffy stories using the new canon.

Warren, to me, had died and then was brought back by Amy. He's not human anymore, which was stated by him in issue four. Andrew is a lier, also established in old canon. And as Eowyn said, we've only seen Angel's side of the conversation, we didn't see Giles'. Maybe he's not full of crap. No Future For You redeemed Giles in my eyes in a way late season seven didn't, so I'm happy to have the new canon as I love Giles, as well as all the characters.
Jan 31 2008 03:24 pm   #45LindsayH
Something just occurred to me about the Warren flayed/incinerated thing.  Remember how Buffy had Tara go over the resurrection spell, and Tara told her she had what amounted to a deep cellular tan, which was just enough to confuse Spike's chip?  Even though we can agree Willow doesn't have the best control over magic, Amy is much less disciplined and/or sane than Willow.  So maybe the incineration thing is a reference back to "Bargaining."  If I was a deity, Osiris let's say, I would be more lenient about returning the Slayer with very few changes and a little less kind when returning someone who didn't contribute much to the world except for stupidity and pain.  Plus, if you factor in the spell-caster, it's obvious Warren didn't just come back wrong.  The spell (if it was the same spell--that's a big assumption on my part) required Willow to be tested.  If Amy was found wanting when she was tested, that would also explain Warren.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'