So, I've been thinking about Becoming, and how much Joyce knew.  "Off camera" did Buffy tell her Spike's a vampire?  It's implied, with the "hit me with an axe" and "Dru bagged a Slayer" comments.  And there's the awkward silence between Spike and Joyce when Buffy's on the phone in the kitchen.  However, Joyce could also be freaked just because of the Slayer thing and seeing the vamp turn to dust.  Also, she doesn't seem to know Angel's a vampire at this point.  When Spike talks about helping to kill Angel, she says, "Angel your boyfriend?"  Also, do we know where she was driving back from when she first pulls up and sees Buffy and Spike together?

I'm assuming that she was driving around from looking for Buffy. She knew about the police, I can't imagine she was doing anthing else. I think she knew that Spike was a vampire, because I'm sure at that point Gang on PCP excuses lost all their clout. I also think she was too shocked to care the Spike was a vampire.

Hmm, also when Spike set out to find Buffy, and ran into her about to get arrested, where was he going?  Was he just out looking for her?  Or do you think he knew where her house was?  On the one hand, he might have done his research (or gotten it from Angelus), but on the other, he was never big with the planning (that worked).

He was looking for her--he knew he had to since Angelus was onto opening Acathla, and he was running out of time.  I think he knew where she lived, but only because of Angelus talking about it endlessly (Drusilla also knows where Buffy lived).  I don't think Spike took the personal time to find out where she lived--he was more about fighting on level ground, and her home would not be considered as such, nor fair.  He did do his research--video recording her and whatnot to learn her moves and to see what keeps her going.

I would imagine that Spike's research on Buffy would have included where she lived, regardless of whether he would consider that an appropriate place to attack her.  I believe the idea that Spike wanted to fight her fair and square is more of a fanon thing than something supported by the show.  Yes, he enjoyed the fight, but he wanted to bag his third slayer and also get her out of his hair while he worked on saving Dru.  Don't forget he called in the Order of Taraka on her.  Hardly fair, that. :) And I agree, I"m sure he was looking for her - probably on his way to her house when he ran into her.

Yes, the Order of Taraka...yeah, but only to distract her long enough so he could save Dru.  Remember--she kept attacking his guys when they were looking for the DuLac Cross, which was the key to curing her (literally).  The only thing he did was the deal he made with her friend to lock her in that basement (but, it was an opprotunity presented to him, and not something he thought of himself), and the Gem of Amarra.  Invincibilty is unfair, but at the same time, I think he was determined to destroy her after losing Dru twice within a year.

Oh no--either another tag hijacking, or perhaps material for a whole new thread entirely :D

Hijacked thread!  Hijacked thread!   :)

Hmm, though, I suppose Spike probably was on the way to her house.  That would have been funny as well.  What was he going to do, ring the bell?

Slightly OT, but also about Becoming, what exactly did Spike hit Angel with?  A crowbar?

Spike has never really fought fair... even from their first fight. They agree on no weapons, but as soon as Spike's losing, he grabs a weapon. Then, on Halloween, he sees the opportunity to kill her when she's helpless - hardly a fair fight. He makes the deal with Ford to lock her in the basement, and then sent the Order of Taraka after her. In fact, when has Spike ever even suggested he wanted a fair fight?

I'd agree with Slaymesoftly - he definitely looked up her address when he came to Sunnydale. Think about it - when he gets out of the Initiative, the first thing he does is look up Buffy's dorm room. Why wouldn't he do the same when he first arrived? He couldn't get into her house without an invitation, so it's probably not a good place to attack her, fair fight or not, but strategically, he'd want to know where it was. If he went to the trouble of videotaping her to study her technique, he certainly could take a browse through the phone book for "Summers."

He was most likely on his way to her house. I doubt he'd ring the doorbell, but he could definitely have lurked until she came outside or came home.

Eowyn is the other, younger, prettier me.  LOL

Hahahaha! Thanks. :)

I believe that Spike hit Angelus with a fire place poker.

I believe in Season 2 Spike would have killed her anyway he could, including in her sleep if she would have let him in her house, He liked Joyce after they met but I don't think it would have stopped him from using her to get to Buffy if he really wanted too.

smlcspike

He liked Joyce after they met but I don't think it would have stopped him from using her to get to Buffy if he really wanted too.

I think you're right - and I think what made Spike and Joyce's camaraderie possible is that, for the most part, the time when he liked Joyce, he didn't really need to use her to get to Buffy. (Contrary to popular belief, I do not think it was the amazing power of her hot chocolate.) I don't think he got a particularly positive impression of her in "Becoming" - she hardly talked to him directly, and when she did, it was awkward. She was obviously clueless about the Slayer thing, which I don't think would earn her respect from Spike. But then he left town, so there was no opportunity to use Joyce to get to Buffy.

I think he grew to like her in "Lover's Walk" because she was sympathetic to him. He was a little off his game that entire episode, so it's no surprise he didn't use Joyce's kindness to kill Buffy or something. But again, he left town after that, and when he came back he was only around for about one episode before he got captured by the Initiative. After that point, even if he'd wanted to use Joyce to get to Buffy, he really couldn't. But I think if he'd known Joyce in season 2, when he was evil and out to kill Buffy, I think he would've used her.

In fact, when has Spike ever even suggested he wanted a fair fight?

That's an excellent point, E.  One I didn't really think about until you pointed it out.  I've read countless fics (some which were very good) where for whatever reason, Spike passes up the opportunity to kill Buffy, either because she's sick, weak, weaponless, etc etc.  The writer usually explains it as Spike wants to take out his third Slayer in a fair fight.  I didn't realize it was fanon until you mentioned it.  However, I have a question.  Why is it so many authors write Spike this way?  Is it a way to make Spike seem more honorable, more likable?

I think a big part of it is the contrast to Angelus.

Angelus involved Buffy's whole family, including her friends, as he went after her but without a fair fight. He snuck into their bedrooms, killed Willow's fish, murdered Jenny and left her for Giles to find in a heart-wrenching scene, and went for psychological and emotional torment instead of a straight fight, including just a small comment to her mother about sleeping with her. In comparison Spike was direct and honest in his intentions and methods, if not honorable, and it made him look a bit better, especially for people with a soft spot for the vampire who feels love instead of the one disgusted by it like Angel in "I Only Have Eyes for You". Lots of fics try to make Spike and Angelus extremely different or contrast them, but a lot of times I think it's not even consciously thought about by the authors.

Until I actually looked at canon instead of the fanfics I've immersed myself in, I was certain that Spike wanted a fair fight for the thrill of the 'dance'.

I agree, Izzy.  I suppose it's fair in the sense that he didn't inolve her friends and family.  He didn't go for the head games, so by comparison (which yeah, it is kind of subconscious--at least for me), it's more fair.  There's an inherent difference with Spike, which is the only reason Buffy bothers to invite him into her house.  Had the shoe been on the other foot, and Spike wanted to open Acathla, and Angelus came to Buffy for help to stop him (which, admittedly, is highly unlikely for his character, but I'm saying hypothetically), she wouldn't have reopened that invite.

As for Spike and Joyce, well, they were genuinely amicable with one another (and yes, I think "Lover's Walk" started it off for them, and I'm thinking they spent more time together in s5, even though we the audience don't see it, for they seem incredibly comfortable with one another in "Crush."  She shares her day with Spike--that to me is significant.  He comes over to aplogize about the whole Dawn thing, but he's still there.  I'd be willing to bet that Spike even talked to Joyce about Buffy, though not mentioning it was actually her of course, which would explain Joyce's sudden concern about Spike's affections for Buffy, because then she would know how deep they really go.  This is all speculation, of course).

Anyway, on the s3 DVDs,  _{Kristine Sutherland, James and Jane Espenson talk about how they got along, how Joyce mother’s Spike, and Kristine even goes so far to mention how she wishes the scenes between them would play out more because of the potential there.  She understands Spike, and there was something that made their relationship work.  Could have been the whole Mother/Son vibe that’s kind of there, or something else altogether.  He genuinely liked the lady, and had no intention of hurting her.  I mean, come one—he walks in, says hello, and I can’t imagine him threatening her in some shape or form, and then she just makes him hot chocolate.  They started talking right off the bat.  He doesn’t even mention the spell book that Willow needs, or even Willow, for that matter (if how Joyce is utterly clueless about Willow being witch or anything about Spike being in town had to do with spells when Angel and Buffy show up is any indication).}

Why is it so many authors write Spike this way? Is it a way to make Spike seem more honorable, more likable?

Probably. I think there's an aspect of the Angelus comparison as well. Angelus definitely didn't fight fair, and Spike fans want there to be as much of a difference between Spike and Angel as possible. But there's still a big gap between not involving friends and family and wanting a fair fight. If he'd wanted a fair fight, he'd have challenged her to a duel in the alley behind the Bronze, not stormed into Parent-Teacher Night with a gang of vampires and killed everyone in sight.

Maybe some of it comes from Fool For Love, from the impressions of the fights with the other Slayers. He does seem to fight them one-on-one, no tricks or traps. However, we have no idea how many times he fought the other Slayers, or under what circumstances, prior to the fights we saw. Maybe he wasn't fair with them, either.

What's interesting is that Buffy is actually the one who insists on a fair fight - she refuses to stake him when he's chipped, even though he gives her reason to on more than one occasion.

I think a big part of it is the contrast to Angelus. - Probably, or the continued attempt to make Spike out to be better than he was  - Spike knows how strong Slayers are and he gives himself every possible advantage.  He does involve her friends - kidnaps Willow and Xander in Lover's Walk.  Even Willow knows that they aren't getting out of the factory alive if Spike has anything to do with it.  After he gets his chip and before he knows what it does, he attacks Willow and threatens to turn her into a vampire.  He'd enjoy a fair fight, he wants to dance, but Spike is no saint.

Angelus also attacks Buffy when she has the flu and is too weak to fight back.  It's Xander that backs off Angelus with a cross and saves her and later prevents Angelus from attacking her in the hospital.

We know that Spike visited Joyce on other occasions because after she dies, he tells Xander and Willow that she always had a nice cuppa for him. 

Spike describes himself in "Damaged" as always thinking of it as a party, the "Fists and Fangs" and not thinking at all about the victims he makes - they are prey and food to him.  In "Fool For Love" he also talks about the glory of the fight  - while he is very willing to use other means to win, I do think that he is very much into the hand to hand battles.   Buffy would be dead if not for Joyce, they fought fair and square, one on one, and he had her beat. 

Buffy would be dead if not for Joyce, they fought fair and square, one on one, and he had her beat.

Well... that depends on your definition of "fair and square." What actually happens is, they're both holding weapons, and then there's an agreement to drop them and fight hand-to-hand. Until Spike starts losing, and he grabs another weapon and starts bashing her with it.

Either way, as Spike points out in FFL, a vampire always has his weapon.  And isn't it Buffy's suggestion they drop the weapons?  Thinking back on it, kinda doesn't make sense since she doesn't have a wooden stake attached to her anatomy like he has fangs.

Well, neither of them actually does the "You mean I'll put down my sword, and you'll put down your rock, and we'll face each other as God intended?" type deal.

Buffy says, "Do we really need weapons for this?" which, yeah, is kind of a silly thing to say, since she'd probably need at least something wooden, unless she plans to rip Spike's head off his shoulders with her bare hands. And Spike replies, "I just like them. They make me feel all manly." He drops his weapon first, possibly as a challenge to get her to drop hers - even though technically, he's still armed.

Maybe that's why Spike feels the need to give her the "a Slayer must always reach for her weapon" lesson in FFL, who knows.

Yeah, I agree.   Twisting heads off doesn't seem like it would be an easy task--particularly so because she's height challenged (I recall seeing Angel twist a lot of heads, but he's tall).  Unless her opponent is laid out on the ground, maybe...  I'd even go one step further and say "a Slayer must always be armed," cause you might reach for your weapon, but it doesn't mean you'll grab it in the nick of time.  At least, Xin Rong didn't.

Twisting heads off isn't easy. You need the right leverage, plus considerable strength. Buffy could basically only do it if they were kneeling or sitting in front of her. You can break the neck, but it takes extra to sever the head. It might even matter how large your hands are in comparison to the head you're trying to control.

Very cocky of Buffy to go weaponless against a vamp that's killed 2 Slayers before when she's only been doing the job for about a year.

There's fighting dirty, and then there's fighting evil. For the most part, Spike fights dirty.

I know about fighting dirty, but what's your intepretation of fighting evil?  I've never heard that term, exactly.

I'd even go one step further and say "a Slayer must always be armed," cause you might reach for your weapon, but it doesn't mean you'll grab it in the nick of time. At least, Xin Rong didn't.

Yeah, that was the point. "A Slayer must always reach for her weapon" wasn't so much a "here's what you should do" kind of lesson, it was a cautionary tale. Remember, the second half of it is, "I've already got mine." The lesson is that, before the fight even begins, the Slayer is already at a disadvantage to a vampire. Tossing away her weapon is throwing away her advantage.

Very cocky of Buffy to go weaponless against a vamp that's killed 2 Slayers before when she's only been doing the job for about a year.

Maybe she was cocky because she'd defeated the Master? Granted, he did kill her a little bit, but she won out in the end. Once she was back on an even keel after her "When She Was Bad" issues, maybe she sort of had this "I defeated death, I'm invincible" kind of mentality?

Maybe she was cocky because she'd defeated the Master? Granted, he did kill her a little bit, but she won out in the end. Once she was back on an even keel after her "When She Was Bad" issues, maybe she sort of had this "I defeated death, I'm invincible" kind of mentality?

That's a good point--the Master was way older than Spike after all. But at the same time, they didn't really fight (not extensively anyway)--he drowned her (on accident), and she pushed him through a sky light where he happened to land on a big, pointy wooden plank.  As far as hand to hand combat, she had no idea how experienced Spike was.  But then, that's kind of what cocky is all about :P

I know about fighting dirty, but what's your intepretation of fighting evil?  I've never heard that term, exactly.

Being extra cruel, totally dishonorable. Going beyond just face-to-face brawling. Spike will peck down a Slayer's defenses, but he draws the line at the mental and emotional agony Angelus relished.

Thinking about the weapons talk, what about the axe?  Joyce hits Spike on the head, not even knocking him out, and he doesn't try again?  It's not like he should be particularly afraid, he's fought armed opponents before, much more formidable than the Slayer's mother.  It hardly seems like the opportune moment is passing, yet he leaves.  Of course, the show is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, so obviously she's not going to die (like that), but for him to run at that point seemed kind of odd.

visually, his exit has a quality of a scene that was inserted or badly edited - Spike's exit  feels like the actor did not know quite what his character would do. The script calls for Spike  to give up the fight and leave, however it appeared to me that Spike's exit was disconnected from Joyce's action.  It's like the actor himself does not quite understand why this character would just give up the fight and just leave the location.  Probably just projecting my own confusion onto the actor and the scene, easy but not a particularly good thing.