BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Does Dawn have a Soul?

Mar 12 2008 05:02 am   #1Guest
This was brought up on another thread from antoher site I was on, and I was just wondering about your thoughts about it are. Does Dawn have a soul? The monks made her body from Buffy's blood and such, but could they really manufacture a human soul? If not, what does the say about the soulless vs souled threory of Buffyverse, as Dawn is clearly  a good being, even if she annoys a lot of people.
Mar 12 2008 05:16 am   #2Guest
yes, dawn does have a soul

how could dawn be a person without a soul
Mar 12 2008 05:49 am   #3Guest
Well, your blood and your heart and brain keep your body alive. People in comas are still alive, but I have heard some people say they think the person's soul has moved on.
Mar 12 2008 06:03 am   #4Guest
I think she's human, just more. So yeah, souled. She certainly has a conscience.

CM
Mar 12 2008 05:44 pm   #5nmcil
The Key as an entity was pure force - if you equate having a soul with the spiritual force that imbues human then she would have a soul - but this force of spirit is neither Good or Evil, it simply is - as are all souls within the human construct.  One of the biggest failures of the Buffyverse series was the connection with Buffy, The Watchers, and the Scoobies of attributing the concept of Good and Evil to souls - clearly having a soul was never the defining attribute to any human, and demons, being forces for good.

My personal opinion is that Joss Whedon did not start out with the idea of "Souls" taking on the definition of Good or Evil as in the Western Judeo/Christian  system but that this connection, like many things, develop from other needs, both script and the cultural environment of the series - Western Culture USA.  In another culture the connection of Good and Evil would not be connected with souls or the human life force.

Strictly from my personal opinion, and from not adhering  to any religious ideas of the Judeo/Christian system, I think the concept of "soul" is based more on finding the positive forces within oneself.  Forces that allows for the realization of each individuals greatest potential.   Finding your "humanity" however does not automatically fall into the"positive" force, as we all know, it can produce a Ghandi as easily as it creates mass murders, dictators, or just plain old fashion greedy and ruthless humans.  That finding of "soul" is what, again from my personal perspective, allows for a Spike journey and for a Dark Willow and Warren Mears.  These three characters embodied where this force of "soul" could be made manifest in the world's plain.

If Dawn stills functions as The Key, I see her power as being temporarily housed within a human body, if she no longer is The Key, then she has the universal force that works within our human existence -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 12 2008 05:57 pm   #6Scarlet Ibis
I'd say no, since she was forged into flesh by humans.  But she definitely has a conscience, and the innocence of a child, and the belief that she has a soul, so perhaps that's enough.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 12 2008 11:39 pm   #7FetchingMadScientist
I'd have to say, that although Dawn is made out of the "stuff " that makes up Buffy, blood, DNA ect...she is not Buffy, and I'm not sure she has a soul.  I would say she does not.  And, I'd also point out that Glory didn't seem to think that what Dawn was made of was entirely good, but then, who is?  I think the whole point pf the Buffyverse was to get us thinking things like :

"What exactly is it that makes people good or bad?  What's the difference, and does that difference really matter?  Can people  start out on one path, and then change, for good or ill?"

I think the Buffyverse was all about getting us to think and to look inside ourselves.  It did that, and it's doing that.  I think it's a good thing. :-p
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Mar 12 2008 11:40 pm   #8LindsayH
They made Dawn from Buffy's DNA, but it was never said that she was magically poofed into a teenage girl.  Just that the memories of everyone were adjusted to include her.  I'm saying that maybe the monks made Dawn like a test-tube baby, only they grew her a little faster than normal or something.  Dawn just seems too complete to be thought up by a bunch of backwards monks.  As to the soul issue, I think nmcil has the right idea. 
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Mar 12 2008 11:41 pm   #9Eowyn315
My personal opinion is that Joss Whedon did not start out with the idea of "Souls" taking on the definition of Good or Evil as in the Western Judeo/Christian system but that this connection, like many things, develop from other needs, both script and the cultural environment of the series - Western Culture USA.
He was proposing that soul=good as early as episode 7 by introducing Angel as a souled vampire, and presumably had set that up from the conception of Angel as a character, so I think souls in the Buffyverse, since their inception, were always meant to delineate between good and evil.

Whether he had the idea of soul=good before he created the character of Angel, who knows. Personally, I think it's more likely that souls WERE meant to be defined as good vs. evil, not through any ideal that was forced on it, but through Joss' own construction of a clear line between the good guys (humans) and the bad guys (vampires). But the inherent clarity of that black and white view was muddied by the introduction of non-evil soulless creatures.

I think, regardless of the mystical characteristics of the making of the Key, which were never fully explained, Dawn is meant to be fully human, and thus soulled by definition in the Buffyverse. It's writer's intent - if she wasn't supposed to have a soul, I think we would've seen a much different portrayal of her character.

Sidebar: I've seen the theory that when they created Dawn, the monks took a piece of Buffy's soul, and that's why Buffy is so much harder and less in touch with her humanity from season 5 onward. But if Dawn only had a piece of a soul, shouldn't she also exhibit similar characteristics?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 12 2008 11:46 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis
I've seen the theory that when they created Dawn, the monks took a piece of Buffy's soul, and that's why Buffy is so much harder and less in touch with her humanity from season 5 onward. But if Dawn only had a piece of a soul, shouldn't she also exhibit similar characteristics?

I still don't think she has a soul, but what I do think ties into that.  It's like that sugar pill concept--it'll make you smarter, faster, etc., but it doesn't really--you just believe that it does. Dawn is meant to believe she's just an ordinary girl--her mindset is already there.  And yeah, she finds out that her existence was fabricated, and her blood can open up a portal, but she, as does everyone around her, still treats her like a normal teenage girl (who just needs to be protected from a psychotic hellgod, but still).  So, she acts how she is perceived to be.  If when she found that she was a key, that she was soulless, and bad, and yada yada yada, perhaps her entire personality would've shifted.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 12 2008 11:49 pm   #11Eowyn315
But what I mean by writer's intent is that if Dawn doesn't have a soul, regardless of whether she thinks she does or not, I think Joss would have given us some clues by making her seem less bothered by her conscience. Whether you think it matters or not, obviously, the soul DOES matter to the writers in the Buffyverse, so if the intent was that Dawn doesn't have a soul, there should be some evidence of it.

In the absence of that, I think we're meant to assume that the energy-molded-into-human-form process included sticking a soul in there somehow.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 13 2008 12:03 am   #12Guest
There is an absolutely wonderful WIP by Mary of the Journeys Series. In it we see Dawn wondering if she has a soul or not and what that means. Sometimes she would think of something and not feel guilty and wonder if that meant she didn't have a soul, but I think lots of teenagers would think the same thing and never think of it as 'evil' just selfish maybe. I don't know what the monks did, but a soul is not a personality transplant as Angel tells people and we see with Spike and the bad humans can have no conscience but still have souls. I think Dawn has those memories of growing up, learning what was right and what was wrong, learning to feel things, learning what behavior wasn't acceptable-- these are fake memories but she accepts them after finding out she's the key. A soul isn't a moral compass within that drives you to do the so-called 'right thing'. I don't think Dawn had a soul but she could feel emotions and she acted as her memories showed of right and wrong. I don't think she needed a soul.
Mar 13 2008 12:12 am   #13Scarlet Ibis
I can totally go with conscience over soul--lack of conscience is what sociopaths are made of, and they have souls.  The soul isn't all that relevant, IMHO.  And we see in the Buffyverse as well that people with souls still do evil things, so they're pretty much saying souls are irrelevant too in that world.  Those examples, Faith, the Mayor, Ford, Warren, Spike, Andrew...contradict the silly black and white notion of soul=good and unsouled= bad.  It's the choices one makes--it's about free will and your conscience.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Mar 13 2008 12:18 am   #14nmcil
They one thing that I have never been able to understand, going from the position that Joss Whedon, at the time of the creation of this series, as I understand,  described himself as an atheist, bringing  in this soul - equals good and lack of soul equals evil. 


I am not going against the idea of their Working Difinition with Soul having - but simply wonder how this equation came about - particularly as it became so defining a mark throughout the series and from a person that placed himself outside the normal belief system of most Americans, if not most human beings.   I can tell you that for most atheist, this position of Soul equating to the definition of Good and Non-Soul to evil would been seen as shear nonsense.  He would know that and since Joss Whedon is nothing if not a man of acute intelligence , a man of integrity and social & cultural awareness of many societies - it is a most confusing  position to take in the series.  And again, I don't claim to speak for Joss Whedon, but as a viewer of all his programs, I am left with this question "soulful purpose" -  

Their can be no question that both Good and Evil were done by all characters - so where does that leave the issue?  Does anyone have more information about where I could look for answers either in interviews or others sources.  He must have been asked about this "Soul Good-Non Soul Evil" at some of the conventions?  Can anyone direct me to a book of analysis.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 13 2008 12:48 am   #15Spikez_tart
Good and Evil were done by all characters  - What about the Buffybot?  I don't think she ever does anything evil and she plainly has feelings.  The other robots - Ted and April - do bad things and display anger and other feelings.  So - in the BSV, do bots have souls?  Or even consciences? 

Liked the Buffy loses a piece of her soul to make Dawn and she becomes harder because of it. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 13 2008 02:04 am   #16SpikesBoii
I'm not sure really, my opinion is that Dawn probably has half a soul because she is half human and half key. Or you know maybe the Monks gave her a soul like the gypsies did to Angel(us)?
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Mar 14 2008 04:41 am   #17Eowyn315
So - in the BSV, do bots have souls? Or even consciences?
I would say no on both counts. I think their behavior is determined by how they're programmed. Ted is evil because he was created by the real, human Ted (right? I kinda forget that part), who was pretty f-ed up in the head, and so created a robot that was ruthless in getting what he wanted, but put on a charming act to fool humans. April does everything she does out of love for Warren, and seems to have no filter of right and wrong, except that anything that shows devotion to Warren is right, and anything that makes Warren unhappy is wrong. The Buffybot doesn't really do bad things because she's not programmed that way. I could see how she would've been just as dangerous as April when faced with a situation where Spike was in danger, but once Willow tinkered with her and made her less devoted to Spike, she seems to function better without the irrational behavior that April displayed.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 14 2008 01:47 pm   #18LindsayH
Ok, so I totally misunderstood Ted then.  I thought the human Ted transferred his energy to his robotic creation somehow, like in that X-Files episode "Kill Switch."  Thanks for clearing that up.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Mar 15 2008 01:58 am   #19Eowyn315
I dunno... Ted was apparently a technological genius, but I think transferring human energy to a robot is probably beyond even him, especially considering he built the robot in the 1950s. The only explanation we get on what he did is from Xander: "So, I'm Ted, the sickly loser. I'm dying and my wife dumps me. I build a better Ted. He brings her back, holds her hostage in his bunker'o'love until she dies. And then he keeps bringing her back, over and over."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.