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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Vampires in Love
Guest
The only way that I think Spike is an anomaly is that he was the only one shown to be truly in love with a human--a Slayer no less.
Don't forget--Harmony was very much in love with Spike. And Angelus was perverted...but he did love Darla, as well as Dru and William in a twisted sort of way. Of course, Angel would tell it different, but he'd be lying.
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Guest
But Harmony loved, James and Elizabeth loved. Dru definitely loved her daddy. Darla might have loved, but she would never express it as such. She'd show it in being possessive, but she liked evil too much to outwardly love.
CM
I agree with Scarlet, Spike was only an anomaly in that he was the only one to be shown as being in love with a human.
Vampires can love. It's just in their own way. Some are more human-like than others. Harmony, for example, the only thing that really changed about her was that she be came a vamp!
It was in the season 3 episode, Dopplegangland, where a hint was given that really got me thinking about this issue. Especially with all the Angel/Angelus stuff that came up later on in both series.
Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality
has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look from Buffy)
That's a good point.
(Quote taken from Buffyworld.com)
Now, doesn't that get you thinking? Or is it just my warped mind that latches on to that little peice of writing? lol
The demon doesn't take over, it just fits in with the personality of the person being vamped. Thats why Spike, Dru, Harmony etc can show that they love in some form or another.
I think Angel was the anomaly, he needed it to be seen that way, so that Buffy would fall for him! But then again, that might just be my own Spuffy want coming out in me! :spuffy:
Guest
But it's made pretty clear that Angel can love when he has his soul... so if he's incapable of love without the soul, and capable of it with the soul, wouldn't that indicate that it was the literal soul, not something figurative, that caused the difference?
I think Angelus was capable of love; he just didn't love Buffy. (I think he loved Darla, too, but that's debatable.) He's still obviously obsessed with Buffy, but I think he resents the way she made him want to be good. He hates what she's done to him, her influence on him, and so he despises her for the very reasons he used to love her. It doesn't mean he can't love her.
I think Angelus was capable of love; he just didn't love Buffy. (I think he loved Darla, too, but that's debatable.) He's still obviously obsessed with Buffy, but I think he resents the way she made him want to be good. He hates what she's done to him, her influence on him, and so he despises her for the very reasons he used to love her. It doesn't mean he can't love her.
This fits also the dynamics of Buffy and Spike and why she loathed him - it was easier for her to put all the blame on Spike instead of seeing herself as a possible reflection of the darkness within.
The entire notion that the vampire is only animating a human shell never made any sense to me - There would be no personality or a huge transformation of that personality if they were not in a hybrid state. If all the vampire demon requires is a vessel to inhabit there would be no need whatever of having any of the living person manifested. Clearly the writers kept the personalities or traits of the living human as part of their vampire creations. Even with the first introduction of Darla - her dialogue, on her death bed even, shows her talking with The Master in the same mode as Darla the vamp. Drusilla is different because of her insanity from the innocent young woman and Vamp William clearly maintained his personality and ability to love upon being sired. Liam and Angelus are also the same. It is only Angel and the CofW that maintain the dogma of human shell-demon-entity. What Angel on some deep level did not want to connect with his Angel persona was that it was all a house of cards.
Angel is the creation from a curse, the very fact that Angelus resurrects based on "love & happiness with Buffy" I think shows that vampires do have the capacity to love. How could the curse work from his love of Buffy without their being a connection?
James Marsters said something interesting in some Q&A session - sorry that I have to paraphrase - that the Paley Fest Panel was somewhat dissappointing in that hard questions were not addressed. As a continuing viewer and enthusiast of the fandom, I would loved to have a serious discussion regarding the "which vamp" question. What do you folks think, was that a proper forum for a serious discussion on Spike-Buffy-Angel or not? Are these conventions, not the conferences, at all set-up to take serious discussions? I try not to, but I get so upset when this continued romanticizing of Buffy and Angel Forever - I don't care if Joss Whedon and the writers want to go there, what I detest is going there without discussion and the acknowledgement of all the real garbage that surrounded that relationship.
Sorry, I probably should start another topic for this -
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I don't think it was ever really meant to be true in the Buffyverse. Aside from the fact that it's observably inaccurate given the characters, we have vampires who say it's not true, and they should know.
However, it does make a heck of a lot of sense, given the source. Giles is the one who offers this explanation, as the Council's party line. If you're telling a fifteen year old girl that she needs to go out and kill things, you definitely don't want her having fuzzy feelings towards the things she's supposed to kill, or bringing up moral questions about whether it's the right thing to do. The best way to avoid that is to cast vampires as having no connection to the human they used to be. And most Slayers would never spend enough time with a vampire to find out that that's not the case.
What do you folks think, was that a proper forum for a serious discussion on Spike-Buffy-Angel or not?
To be honest, I don't think you're ever going to get a serious discussion of those kinds of issues at a forum or convention. First of all, we're now talking about a show that's been off the air for five years. I doubt any of them really care whether Buffy would choose Angel or Spike anymore. It's over, they've moved on with their lives, and although I'm sure it was nice to see everyone again and talk about old times, they're not thinking critically about the show (if they ever did).
James is a rarity in that he really likes hard questions, and if given the opportunity, he will wax philosophical in a Q&A, or stand there and debate with a fan until someone cuts him off. I think everyone else was there to have a good time and chat about some fond memories. Not debates or arguments or bringing up of past issues.
Guest
What most clearly illustrates both issues to me is Spike's flashbacks in Fool for Love. We meet William, and then see him turned into a vampire. William would never have killed anyone, but he is still partly himself as a vampire. We see him grow and change and his feelings show in different ways or take different outlets, though still there. Then, we see him crying on the ground after Buffy pushes him away and the Big Bad slayer of Slayers is still William in the parlor with his poetry being rejected!
I think Angelus could love, just like lots of humans could love, but just don't feel it with certain people or it's expressed in different ways like affection. It is not that he wasn't capable of feeling. But think, if something forced you to change who you were and how you looked on things, and you fell for someone, then you reverted back to how you thought before-- why would you still love the girl who fell for when you were such a different person? It makes sense Angelus didn't love Buffy after losing his soul, because of who he was and what that meant, not because the soul was the only thing in him capable of loving. I think he cared about Darla though because he was so different to souled Angel it wasn't shown the same way.
It's not just that though (and it's a wonder this was never brought up by Angelus in s2). It's because of Buffy that that halfwit, brooding Angel (from Angelus's POV, not mine), that Darla, his maker and yes, I think the woman he loved, was now dust. If it weren't for Buffy, Angel would have let Darla be, as he had done for the last hundred years. I'm sure on top of that, he hates her even more because Buffy is the one that released him of Angel's soul (as he would see it) in the first place.
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But if that's true, then what accounts for the difference between Angelus and the vampires who apparently can love without a soul? Are we supposed to assume that some vampires can love without a soul and some can't, and if so, why?
I don't know that this can be answered with what we are given in canon. Dalton was burned up by The Judge for still having humanity in him, yet Angel stayed unscathed at his touch. Why? What exactly is humanity defined as? Affection? Clinging to human notions like morality? This is a concept that can be explored, either in essay or in fan written fiction, but ultimately I don't think the series (either one really) answered it.
I think we must take into account the fact that Angelus was caged beneath the soul for a hundred years. If the Judge had encountered him pre-souling, perhaps he would have been read differently. In fact, the old Angelus would not have been into ending the world (if all of those flashbacks are an accurate indication, and since they are canon, I believe that they are)--he was into luxury and enjoying himself. Sucking all of the finer things in unlife into Hell does not seem sane. Perhaps he was not by that point.
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i think all manner of demons are capable of love, or any other emotion for that matter. it's just that sometimes humans don't see their way of love as the "right" way. it's just like in the different cultures around the world. the way on culture loves or shows emotion is different from another, which when those two cultures are introduced to each other, can often lead to strife because of the clash of values and ethics. not that one culture has more or less then another culture, but that the two don't understand each other and there for are afraid. example: in many places, a young man with his arm around a girl is a small sign of possession. many people would see this act and think "their together, either dating or sometimes married" it's a polite form of p.d.a. in korea, the older generations are completely against any kind of touching of the opposite sex in any form or fashion anywhere. my husband and i almost created an international incident because he had his arm around my shoulders on a train and an older gentleman thought it was very inappropriate and proceeded to tell us that yelling in hongul. it's all about the differences in cultures and IMO that's all that there is between demons and humans.
didn't The Judge say that there wasn't a shred of humanity in Angelus
i don't think that it had to do with whether or not he had feelings, but more that he a) just didn't acknowledge them, or b) his feelings were different and not fluffy at the moment. i, personally, think that angelus hated buffy because he still loved her. angel loved her with all his heart, thus being the reason that he lost his soul when they made with the shaggin' and while angel and angelus seem to be to completely different people, they still have a lot of the same characteristics. why be so obsessed with something that you don't give to hoots about? angelus was hell bent on screwing buffy's life up once he was released. if he didn't feel anything at all towards her, he would have just skipped town. which would have been the logical choice, because hanging around just ended up messing things up in the end for him anyways.
the old Angelus would not have been into ending the world (if all of those flashbacks are an accurate indication, and since they are canon, I believe that they are)--he was into luxury and enjoying himself.
exactly! i think pre-ensouled angelus had pretty much the same stance on life as spike did "happy meals on legs" he wouldn't have wanted to the world to go to hell. but then the new angelus hacks out a plan to end all of the world? that just doesn't make since, unless he still had some kind of feelings for buffy. getting his soul taken from him didn’t take his love for buffy away, but because angelus knew who HE was and knew what she was(the slayer) and what she represented in angel’s life (all things good and lovely) he didn't want to love her. so, he forced himself to do the only thing that he could do, hate her. subsequently attempting to end her life. spike does just about the same thing latter in the series. he's completely appalled by his love for the slayer, and fights it for a good minute, which often just left him even more frustrated.
And it's not just vampires as a species we need to consider in this question. vampires are individuals, just like humans are, with different degrees of temper, passion and abilities of all sorts.
As to Angel(us) and his change in behavior before and after the soul, I think his extreme passion for destruction post soul were a need to make up for the century he had lost being all soul-having, by going apocalyptically evil. We see in IOHEFY how horrible he feels about being possessed, and that the worst thing was being forced to love. I suppose that he is so ashamed by all the things he did, and how he was when souled, that he need to prove to himself that he can still be the Big Bad. (and of course he still loved Buffy. he just transformed it into hatred, like Spike did in the beginning of S 5.) I suppose that if he had had the time to get over that shame and overcompensating, and come back to a more normal (for him) mode, the Judge would have found humanity in him.
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