BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Bad Girls & Consequences Eps. Talk

May 09 2008 11:03 pm   #1nmcil
Episodes For Discussion

Links for transcripts:

Transcript for  "Bad Girls"   http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_48.shtml              
 "Consequences"    http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/buffy_tran_49.shtml
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 18 2008 06:35 pm   #2LindsayH
I'm guessing nobody's quite ready to start discussing these eps, since we haven't even talked about Doppelgangland yet, but it was about to get booted off the main list, and I didn't want to have to go looking for it in the forum.  I'm lazy like that.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
May 18 2008 07:22 pm   #3Scarlet Ibis
All I can say is...and I just noticed this like five seconds ago, but it seems as if all humans who go "bad" or turn to murder do it for power.  Faith eventually doesn't feel guilt because she feels it her right to do as she pleases because she is the slayer.  Eventually, she just kind of becomes a homocidal maniac for awhile, but still.  The Mayor...what, exchanged his soul for immortality for power, and kills people to obtain more of it.  Maggie Walsh tries to kill Buffy (and who knows--maybe she offed some people in her time.  I wouldn't put it past her) to keep and maintain her power at the Initiative and over Riley.  Warren--obvious.  Willow only does it for vengeance though, and feeds on it...It wasn't really about power for her.

ETA:  What makes Willow more forgiveable than Faith?  She was consumed by grief, and it led her to try to kill her friends and take out the world.  Faith tries to take Buffy's life, then tries to get Angel to end hers...and actually willingly goes to jail.  She never tried to destroy the world, though.  So yeah, why are her consequences more severe?

Okay, that's all I have for right this second.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 18 2008 08:12 pm   #4Eowyn315
She never tried to destroy the world, though.
But she was working for the Mayor, who was trying to destroy at least all of Sunnydale. I'd say Willow and Faith are pretty even in terms of evil deeds.

What makes Willow more forgiveable than Faith?
Willow's the best friend, and Faith isn't? That's kind of a flip answer, but I think there's some truth to it. Buffy has always held people to different standards based on their relationship to her (just look at Angel and Spike).

But to delve deeper into the question, how do you compare Willow and Faith? At what point is Willow more forgiveable? When you consider all of season 7 (which is when they have both accepted the consequences of their actions), I don't know that Willow really is more forgiveable than Faith.

There's a definite parallel to Willow and Faith's arcs, but there's a distinct difference:

First, you have recklessness and abuse of power - for Willow, it's overuse of magic, for Faith, it's "want take have." Then, recklessness leads them both to a turning point - Willow almost gets Dawn killed, and Faith kills the deputy mayor. That's where they split. Willow admits she needs help, and makes an effort to stop abusing her magic. But Faith, rather than get help or try to turn herself around, just spirals further and further out of control. In fact, when Buffy and the others try to intervene in various ways, she outright rejects them. From Buffy's perspective, at least, it's Faith's own fault she fell as far as she did.

Willow relapses, of course, and it's worse than anything she'd done before. But she again tries even harder to get better, going to England with Giles. That's what makes her forgiveable. Notice that Buffy's not really all forgiving until Willow comes back and proves she's better.

Faith doesn't get that acceptance in seasons 3 or 4 because she refused help and chose evil. But once she does seek help from Angel, once she's done her time in jail, she gets just as much latitude as any other of Buffy's team who is "reformed evil." There's some tension when Faith first shows up in season 7, but she's accepted into the group pretty easily. By the end of her four-episode arc, I'd say Buffy trusts her just as much as she trusts anyone else on her team (with the exception of Spike).

So I don't really see Willow as more forgiveable - it's just that you don't get forgiveness until you redeem yourself, and because Willow's a regular character and Faith's a recurring one, we see Willow's transition happen much more smoothly than Faith's. Doesn't mean Faith's isn't there.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 19 2008 12:37 am   #5Guest
I always loved how we see Faith and Buffy in Bad Girls, and even Giles dealing with Wesley and how clearly Buffy and Angel didn't mesh beyond the angst and tragic duty. After all, Buffy spends a couple later seasons dealing with the darkness inherent in being the Slayer and in Bad Girls we see her having fun and enjoying herself, so it's not like she suddenly becomes greedy for power.
I always thought Buffy spent so much of season four and after trying to look for normal and letting her friends control her life and listening to their judgments and accepting they had the right to make her decisions because of what happened with Faith. It's like she thought unless she treated being the Slayer as a horrible duty she would become evil, and so she had to try to go extreme in the other direction of looking only for average and normal and being sweetness and light and always second-guessing her real instincts and thoughts and asking why.  Just look at her prim and proper behavior and outfit when she confronts Faith in her hotel room, standing in the corner like she can't let the dirty room touch her, definitely separating herself from Faith. No wonder Faith got all defensive and cold, I think she was always very vulnerable.
I wonder what would have happened if Faith hadn't accidentally killed a human.

Did anyone else have to take a moment to blink during the motel room scene? No matter how many times I see the episode, it always feels like this line was meant to be metaphorical and I get thrown when they ignore that in the conversation: 
Buffy: "Faith, you can shut off all the emotions that you want, but eventually they're gonna find a body!"
Didn't anybody think Buffy was referring to Faith's emotions finding a body, a form, and she wouldn't be able to handle it? I didn't think she meant it like a threat that evidence would come to light and you can't escape dealing with the consequences or whatever.

It kinda bugged me when Angel was talking about him without a soul like they were the same person, but after he sent Buffy away. Hypocrite. At the same time, it was like he wanted Faith to be like him. But I don't think Faith enjoyed killing the human, it was an accident, and I don't think it was the same at all. And she definitely felt remorse and guilt and confusion and was trying to cover. It wasn't at all like Angel and they should have focused more on the human heart part of it and being there for her, not making her sound like a monster to be redeemed before it got too bad!

Also, when do you guys think Faith decided to team up with the Mayor? Before she met with Xander and attacked him? Right after she jumped the van from Wesley after Angel, she was thinking about hooking up with another bad guy for protection or whatever? When she staked Trick and got in good with Buffy? After that, off-screen?
May 19 2008 05:14 pm   #6sosa lola
It's weird seeing Buffy break the law and steal. Now the development in S8 is really not that OOC (like some claimed) Buffy already broke the law once.

That scene when Faith pushes Xander to bed against his will looked so much like rape it disturbed me. Poor Xander.
May 19 2008 10:16 pm   #7nmcil
Did anyone else have to take a moment to blink during the motel room scene? No matter how many times I see the episode, it always feels like this line was meant to be metaphorical and I get thrown when they ignore that in the conversation: Buffy: "Faith, you can shut off all the emotions that you want, but eventually they're gonna find a body!" Didn't anybody think Buffy was referring to Faith's emotions finding a body, a form, and she wouldn't be able to handle it? I didn't think she meant it like a threat that evidence would come to light and you can't escape dealing with the consequences or whatever.

I think that this refers both to Buffy and Faith - these two characters are the shadow reflections of each other - Buffy equally tries to shut off her emotions just like Faith does and both cases lead to dreadful consequences.  Faith has her defense of "want take have" and Buffy has her "your an evil, disgusting thing" - both Slayers has their very deep dark sides and that darkness does indeed find the bodies. 

Good Call on the costume for the motel scene - not only is Buffy shown in all the prim and proper symbols of "The Good and Proper Girl"  the body language  from SMG speaks the same theme and Buffy wears the same style in her "Lover's Walk" when she attempts to leave her Angel desires and "we are only friends" fantasy behind and move on to doing "the right thing."    Clothing adds so much to the episode themes - in "Smashed" Buffy again is shown wearing that beautiful and, IMO, Victorian like lace blouse - totally feminine but the episode is all about her violence and hidden emotions.  Later Buffy will place all her emotional devastation and defense mechanisms on to Spike as her shadow reflection.

I was very pleased that Faith was allowed to try and redeem herself and that Angel was the male lead  that helped her find her way onto that path.  I do believe that Faith's early life and environment would have had a great influence on the Slayer she became.  I always liked Faith and Angel together when he was trying to act as a mentor.

Glad the episode discussions has started - Faith and Buffy arc I think is very important to the series and important to understand Buffy's character.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 21 2008 06:29 pm   #8nmcil
Not too much discussions going on with these two episodes - I really recommend that you take another look  at them - if for no other reason that you get to see Faith again - ED was wonderful in these two episodes and watching Wesley is another great treat.  Plus these is another great connection to the season theme of betrayal and taking responsibility for your choices.  Love how Buffy has a Great Rude Awakening from her "Bad Girls" fantasy - plus the complete turn around of this Buffy that cared so much for Faith into the "let's give up Faith's life for sacrifice and her complete lack of care for Spike and her treatment of that character in Season Six from this Buffy that wanted nothing more than to help Faith salvage her life is such a complete change. 

Interesting to listen to Angel's speech to Faith in "Consequences" - very interesting how Angel makes such a distance between his connection to Angelus and yet later in AtS we see how his Soul really does not keep him from killing people - plus he also forgets his killings in China as well.  Angel and his Angelus disconnect is really interesting.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 21 2008 07:10 pm   #9Scarlet Ibis
The soul tempers Angelus a great deal.  However, just because one has a soul means that they are immune to committing acts of evil.  Angel and Angelus are two halves of the same whole.  Both are capable of good and bad.  The soul of course, makes it easier to choose. It is Angelus who stops the Beast.  Also, on Angel, when talking to Spike, he doesn't present a disconnect--all statements about Angelus are made as "I" statements.  Angel can be a killer with a soul, but those instincts are truly unbridled and uninhibited without one.  The soul gives him depth, perspective, and a more astute conscience.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 24 2008 08:27 pm   #10nmcil
The soul tempers Angelus a great deal

Excellent way of describing his soul - you are absolutely right when you say that the "soul" gives him so much more depth - I really do like Angel/Angelus in his own series - being away from Buffy and his life at Sunnydale was a great way to free this character -

I always felt that this having of "soul" was more like being able to engage your humanity in the sense of working for what would make a better world for all its people and life forms, not particularly one of "Good vs Evil" - The having of a "soul" is so much more complex a theme than the black and white world in which Buffy first started out as The Slayer.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 25 2008 02:40 am   #11Eowyn315
Is it possible that the reason Angel distances himself from Angelus on Buffy but not on Angel is because of Buffy? Because she believes that a vampire is nothing like the person they used to be, he goes along with it so as not to make her job harder for her (i.e. not "humanizing" the things she's meant to kill)? 

Once he's on his own show, he's away from Buffy and able to be more honest about his vampiric nature.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.