BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

The Wish & Doppelgangland

May 09 2008 11:10 pm   #1nmcil
Vamp Episodes to discuss -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 10 2008 12:50 am   #2LindsayH
Ok, first up, a question that has always puzzled me:  why does Anya put her power center on Cordy?  She never did that with any of her other wishers. 

Also, just a thought, but here it is.  The Master says, "They claim death is our art.  I say to them...well, I don't say anything to them, because I killed them."   When I first saw "The Wish," it seemed like Spike and Dru should have been there.  Now, though, with Spike's thoughts on the Slayer in "Fool For Love" echoing in my ears, it seems like that was a subtle hint to the attentive viewers that in the alternative reality, the Master killed Spike.

Anyway, weird little thought out of the way.  This is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series, for so many reasons.  I really loved the idea of showing the audience what we took for granted as being the balance and normality of the show--a foreshadowing of the things to come.  Even the introductory scene has much foreshadowing, both for the rest of the season and the rest of the series.  "Too much alone time" is something Buffy should have remembered later on! 

Anyway, the first time I saw this episode, I remember crying, because it was so shockingly portrayed.  It's one thing for alternative-versions of one's favorite characters to be different, but then "The Wish" took it to a completely different arena.  Seeing Xander and Willow kill Cordy, Buffy kill Xander, and Oz kill Willow was just plain horrifying.  Cordy's death really drove home the gruesomeness of the whole alternative timeline, with the menage-a-trois-like pose of Xander, Cordy, and Willow, and the way Cordy's bright dress (her symbolic life force, I guess) was just swallowed up by all the leather.

"The Wish" also represents one of the perfect instances where the metaphor and the real-life situation fit and worked beautifully with the idea of the vengeance demon.  Everyone wishes they could have done something different after a bad breakup, but Cordy actually got to do that.  "Be careful what you wish for, young lady, for you will surely get it" was never more true than in this instance. 

"The Wish" also shows Cordy's evolution of character that would reach full fruition on "Angel."  When Harmony used Jonathan to make fun of Cordy, it was very evident that she felt just as bad for him as for herself.  Also, when John Lee says they could go off somewhere alone, and she says, "What?" so confused and vulnerable-sounding, it really struck home that the Cordelia A.X. was not the same girl as B.X.

Also...after I saw "The Wish" I really started hoping Harmony would get eaten by a vampire.  Yet another instance of be careful what you for, I suppose.

I liked Anya before I realized she was a scary demon.  She seemed really attuned to human behavior in this episode, not at all what we saw in later episodes.  I always wondered if she remembered the alternative timeline.  She knew her pendant was lost in that timeline, so...?  I read a fic in which Anya defended Spike's actions by telling Xander that she was the only demon to ever successfully kill all the Scoobies except for Giles.  Definitely an interesting line of thought.

One last thought, and then I'm gone:  we talked at the beginning of the season about the theme of people giving Buffy her due for being the protector.  This episode represents another major moment for that when Cordy realizes that Buffy made life a lot more liveable in Sunnydale.  "People were happy, mostly."  The episode also hits home for us, the viewers, in that we get to see a Sunnydale without a Slayer to protect it.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
May 10 2008 01:32 am   #3Eowyn315
When I first saw "The Wish," it seemed like Spike and Dru should have been there.
Yeah, this would have been an obvious episode to bring them back, especially since they were bringing Spike back for "Lover's Walk" to test him out as a regular anyway. So it seems like if they were left out, it was deliberate. I never connected the "death is your art" line to that, but considering the Master's and Spike's personalities, it's a safe bet they never got along. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Master had killed them.

On the other hand, vamp Willow and Xander are sort of a next-generation Spike and Dru, so it might have been overkill to have all four of them in the same episode.

Also...after I saw "The Wish" I really started hoping Harmony would get eaten by a vampire. Yet another instance of be careful what you for, I suppose.
Nah, I think Harmony was way more fun as a vampire than as a human, so that's one wish I'm happy with. :)

She seemed really attuned to human behavior in this episode, not at all what we saw in later episodes.
I think this is another one of those instances where the first appearance of the character gets pretty much disregarded once they become a regular. It seems fairly ridiculous that Anya could be so attuned to human behavior as a demon - and obviously managed to get thousands of women to make wishes over the years, just like she did with Cordy - and yet be so clueless when she actually is a human. We've seen her pass for human remarkably well - why is it such a difficult adjustment to actually be human? (Answer: because it's apparently funnier to have her be overly blunt and awkward and misunderstanding social cues.) I get things like her not understanding death or being freaked out about how fragile she now is, but she really should've picked up, for example, appropriate things to say in front of strangers. It'd be awfully hard for her to talk women into trusting her and making wishes if she's making them uncomfortable with her bluntness.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 10 2008 01:51 am   #4LindsayH
Amen, Eowyn.  The very heart of the idea of a vengeance demon is about knowing what people are feeling, so it seems unlikely that someone so successful at that would think it's customary for humans to exchange their children for cash.

Nah, I think Harmony was way more fun as a vampire than as a human, so that's one wish I'm happy with. :)
Well, yes, Harm was more fun as a vamp, but I was being crude and implying she got eaten by a vamp that I wish she would have left alone!
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
May 10 2008 06:17 am   #5Scarlet Ibis
Well, pretty much ditto to everything you guys said.  Except...Darla should have been there.  I suppose it may have been too hard on her to see Angelus that way...As for Spike and Dru, I don't think they should have been there.  They split with Darla some time in the early nineteen hundreds, and she went back to the Master. 

Spike isn't one for rules, so I know he wasn't keen on that.  If everything was exactly the same until the point when Buffy was supposed to come into town, then Spike didn't have the Slayer to contend with, and therefore, he was able to get Dru well without any trouble, and probably left soon after.  I think it would be hard for him and Dru as well to see Angel in a cage as a pet...and he doesn't like rules (and I'm sure he wouldn't go for that human blood machine thingy), so why stick around? 

And isn't Darla the one who was supposed to have sired Xander?  No wait... Jesse should have been there--as a vampire.  But then again, perhaps he ended up as food, or the first thing that Willow and Xander fed on.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 10 2008 06:49 am   #6Eowyn315
Darla should have been there.
Yeah, that's a good point. She should have, although I can't really see her condoning the Angel torture.

If everything was exactly the same until the point when Buffy was supposed to come into town, then Spike didn't have the Slayer to contend with, and therefore, he was able to get Dru well without any trouble, and probably left soon after.
Well, he couldn't actually have healed Dru, unless he found a different way, since the spell required Angel's death, and Angel was still alive (albeit a bit worse for wear). I can't see why the Master or anyone else would've intervened (the way Buffy did) so that the ritual was stopped before Angel died.

I also don't think that Spike would settle for just coming in and doing his thing quietly without causing trouble. Practically the first thing he did was challenge the authority in Sunnydale, and by the end of his first episode, he'd killed the Anointed One and taken over. So I think he probably would've had issues with the Master, especially because they disagree so strongly on "the rules," which is why I think the Master probably killed him in the Wishverse.

I think it would be hard for him and Dru as well to see Angel in a cage as a pet
Given that Spike and Dru have both tortured him on separate occasions, I don't think they'd be all that bothered. They definitely seem to make the distinction between Angel and Angelus, and whatever sire bonds they have with Angelus, they don't really like Angel very much.

And isn't Darla the one who was supposed to have sired Xander?
I don't think we ever learn how they were vamped, but since Darla's not in the episode, I don't think she was supposed to have sired anyone. I assumed Willow was sired by the Master himself, since she's got the same "Master's pet" thing going on that Darla does, and I would guess that either the Master or Willow turned Xander.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 10 2008 10:59 pm   #7Guest
One thing I have to ask everyone who watches BtVS: In Doppelgangland VampWillow is put into the library cage and Buffy and Willow are watching and Buffy tells her, "Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was."  Angel adds, "Well, actually..." then glances at Buffy and cuts off- "That's a good point."
This scene is brought up a lot. Most of the time I hear about it, someone says that Buffy gives angel a look, like telling him to shut up, but I wonder how many people think that was what her look meant. If we believe Buffy really thinks vampires are nothing like the human they once were, then she wouldn't have to get Angel- a vampire who would actually be able to tell them- to not bother Willow with the truth. So, how many think Buffy believes the "vampire is not the friend, it is the demon that killed them" (paraphrase) and was just looking to see what Angel meant before he caught himself, and remember this was after the Angelus incident and teh junk about being a different being, and how many people think Buffy did believe vampires were created from the person they once were and meant Angel to not tell Willow the truth?  A lot of fanfic brings up her stubborness and denial about things like that, so it doesn't seem to match with her knowing vampires are created from whoever the person was they started out as.
May 11 2008 12:52 am   #8LindsayH
I think Buffy just looked to Angel for corroboration, and Angel stopped himself when he realized he was saying too much.  Perhaps this was a small lightbulb moment for Buffy, which might have led to another lightbulb moment in season 4, when Willow came out to her.  It would have been like, "Aha, so vampWillow and Willow aren't so different in some things."  All of these things together developed cracks in the Council theory.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
May 11 2008 02:02 am   #9Eowyn315
Ditto what Lindsay said.

I don't think there's any stubbornness or denial going on for Buffy at this point. It's just what she's been told - and she doesn't really have any reason not to believe it. Buffy hasn't known anyone who's been vamped (except for people like Jesse and Sheila, whom she'd met but didn't really know) so she doesn't really have any proof that the Council is lying, except for little hints like Angel's slip-up. I think Harmony is the first person that Buffy knew as a human and met later as a vampire, and then later the similarities pop up with Willow and her vamp self, so before season 4, I wouldn't expect her to question the Council's teaching.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 12 2008 03:34 am   #10Spikez_tart
Buffy sets out her opinion of what happens when a person gets made into a vampire  in S2, Lie to Me, in her speech to Ford:

BUFFY:  Well, I've got a news flash for you, braintrust: that's not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you.

Joss has to cover a couple of problems with Buffy killing vampires.  They don't look like monsters all the time; they look like regular humans.  (which makes them the most interesting monsters, IMHO).   It would really be icky if the vamps didn't turn into dust.  You'd have Buffy knee deep in dead bodies every show and that would not be a nice thing for a pretty girl.  Also, once you show that vamps do have personalities and that they can change (which Spike does without a soul), then Buffy is going to have a much harder time killing them as for example when she has to dust Web in S7 after talking to him for a couple of hours.  They cut away so you don't see Buffy kill this guy that she knows.

Re Angel in the cage - I think Spike and Dru put him there in the Wishverse.  That wouldn't exclude them being dusted by the Master.  Sounds like a budget consideration or a scheduling conflict maybe. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 15 2008 04:22 am   #11nmcil
Had a chance to finally watch "The Wish" tonight - I had forgotten what a good episode that was - Powerful ending scene - all turns Ashes and Dust and made a wonderful way to introduce the future of Anya and her Vengeance Demon Persona and to teach our lovely Cordelia about having to learn how to live through the pain that comes with love.  Interesting how this "Wish Buffy" is so similar to the hard cold Buffy that we see in the Spike-Buffy relationship.  I love Xander & Willow as vamps.

Does anyone know if there are any FF stories dealing with this "Wish" realm?

I loved Oz and his scene with Willow when he tells her that why she wants so desperately to talk is so that she can feel better - excellent scene.  And I still think that Xander is shown as such a childish young man in the Bronze scene.  This episode clearly showed how much he really did hurt Cordelia
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 15 2008 06:16 pm   #12Scarlet Ibis
FF stories dealing with this "Wish" realm?

There's on by Kallysten, called "In Fire and Blood," where Buffy had met Spike and Dru before coming to Sunnydale...it's a good one.  You can find it on her official site kallysten.net.   There was also one, somewhere on sinister-attraction.org, where it's down the line in that verse, and Giles becomes a general of sorts, and they're in the desert...at any rate, I don't recall the name, but I don't believe it was ever finished.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 15 2008 09:05 pm   #13nmcil
FF stories dealing with this "Wish" realm?

Thanks Much for the info - I will check out Kallysten, love her work.  On the WIP, I no longer read WIP stories that are not by FF active & current writers.  I have been disappointed too often with reading wonderful stories that have been abandoned - can never understand why a writer would not finish works or if they have lost interest and do not plan on completing their works why they don't pull them from FF sites.  I really appreciate it when writers tell their readers that their work will not be completed but offer an outline for what they had planned. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 18 2008 06:38 pm   #14LindsayH
So...Doppelgangland?  Any thoughts?  Beyond how cute Willow and Oz are in this episode, cause I have dibs on that.  Of course, I need to rewatch the ep first.  Basically I'm just bumping up the discussion so it'll stay on the main page.
"Do you like my mask?  Isn't it pretty?  It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
May 18 2008 07:32 pm   #15Scarlet Ibis
Vamp Willow just kind of proves later on that though the soul leaves the body, the mind has a lot to do with one's personality in the Buffyverse.  Sure, there is the obviousness that's Harmony, but it seems to me that the...change of species and the power boost (which kind of gives vampires seniority to kill humans) are the gist of the differences.  A vampire demon isn't just necessarily "some thing that just takes up shop in your house"-- the mind, your mind, your memories is who you are.  Which is why Drusilla is still insane after she was turned.  Vamp Willow was just like Willow, but with power and the now literal taste for blood (as opposed to the figurative taste for blood she shows at the end of s6).  And even as a vampire, she didn't want to end the world--just turn humans into ponies...Oh, and she still loved (or at the very least, cared deeply for) Xander.

Also, I liked Vamp Willow's outfit.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 19 2008 01:52 am   #16Dihcar
I really don't get why some people think Spike was killed by the master in the wishverse, nothing at all suggests that.  I mean, it's a pretty big world, and sunnydale is really small.  Woohoo, the master is in control of Sunnydale, so what?  I'm a 100% sure that his reign would be short, something stronger,smarter, more cunning will come along and overthrow him.   Definitely not Angel, since he was never much of a fighter or all that smart battle-wise. 
I would say Spike could do it, but it would depend on a few things, 1: Dru not holding him back.  Taking care of the trash is a solo-act for Spike, he fights best on his own, Dru could serve as back-up, as long as she didn't get in his way. 2: Would he care enough to take control?  Living the high-life was always Angelus/Darla's desire.  Spike modeld himself as the everday man, simple but very dangerous.

And even if Spike wasn't intrested, there is very little chance that the master would kill him, just like that.  For all their cruelity, vampires respect powerful individuals.  Angelus ridiculed, taunted the master, yet all he received was a minor beating and getting kicked out, not to mention Darla choosing angelus in front of her master.  Spike always taunted Angelus, pushed him to the edge, and other then a few close calls, Angelus never dusted Spike in the early years when he still could have. 
Vampires in the jossverse aren't controled by their sire, a vampire has a will of it's own, no sire-voice can command him to obey.
Spike/Fray=The future
May 21 2008 04:46 am   #17Spikez_tart
Angel never dusted Spike in the early years when he still could have.  Angel beats the tar out of Spike when he shows up in LA looking for his ring, so I think Angel always could have dusted Spike anytime until Angel S5 when they race each other for the cup of mountain dew.  Angel is always jumping three stories onto buildings and stuff - we never see Spike do that.  It appears Angel is stronger.  Spike's advantage is by playing a trick.

Okay - totally sidetracked.  The interesting thing for me about the Wish is that all the main characters show an opposite side to the one we see in the "regular" dimension.  Buffy, Xander and Willow all show their dark and cruel sides; Big Brain Giles shows what a dope he is (why hang out at the library where there is no threshold protection?); Angel is weak, Harmony is softer, more modest, not as mean.  Cordelia (the only one who realizes she's in the wrong place?) reverses herself and admits that Buffy does make things better for everyone (foreshadow of her role in Angel).  An exception is Oz who doesn't appear to be a werewolf anymore and is remarkably true to his regular character.

So - living under adversity affects everyone and bad people become better and good people become worse?

Cordelia learns the biggest lesson, but since she (and everyone else) forgets it all when they're returned, I guess it's subconscious or something? 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 21 2008 05:43 am   #18Dihcar
"Angel never dusted Spike in the early years when he still could have.  Angel beats the tar out of Spike when he shows up in LA looking for his ring, so I think Angel always could have dusted Spike anytime until Angel S5 when they race each other for the cup of mountain dew.  Angel is always jumping three stories onto buildings and stuff - we never see Spike do that.  It appears Angel is stronger.  Spike's advantage is by playing a trick."


Ah no, sure Angel had the upperhand in that fight but nowhere did Spike feel his life was threatend, it was just a "friendly" tussle between the two vamps.  And the beating he took, hardly a beating, Spike has endured lots more then that and often times then not came trough on top.
And Spike didn't all of the sudden grow strong enough to defeat Angel in season5, he could have long ago defeated him if that had been his desire, but evil Spike wasn't intrested in that, he wanted slayers instead, not setteling a vendetta against Angel.
And jumping from  three story buildings and "stuff" has no meaning what so ever, baby-vamps were able to do that, it's all flashy and great to look at but really not that special. Spike was always a pretty grounded fighter, he did do some 30 feet jumps in Destiny. Not to forget that Angel was the lead of his own show, ofcourse they were going to make him look good, compare him to the earlier seasons on Buffy, a world of difference, he was never much of a fighter and he was also the one with the advantage of playing trick.  With Spike you almost always got what you saw. 

Spike/Fray=The future
May 21 2008 09:07 am   #19Scarlet Ibis
In regards to the jumping up to buildings and stuff--it had nothing to do with skill and more to do with the fact that "Angel" had a bigger budget than "Buffy."  The fight scenes were way better, as well as the cinematography in general.  Also, the special effects.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 21 2008 06:16 pm   #20nmcil
Budget - totally part of the big picture - probably being Master Vamps gives them greater strength and skills and more than anything I think age was the deciding factor - plus Angel was simply larger than Spike and the fact that he was older gives him greater strength.  Darla had no problems engaging Angel.  What was wonderful about "Destiny" was not so much that Spike wins but that he wins because his spirit and will gives him the victory. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 22 2008 12:03 am   #21Guest
"probably being Master Vamps gives them greater strength and skills and more than anything I think age was the deciding factor - plus Angel was simply larger than Spike and the fact that he was older gives him greater strength.  Darla had no problems engaging Angel."

The term mastervampire was only used with the master, Spike and Angel(and darla) were older vampires, but they have never been said to be mastervampires.  Being a little bigger also doesn't make you so much stronger, one of the best heavy-weight boxing champion of all time, Mike Tyson, was very short compared to the others in his division.  Angel/David isn't that big of a guy.  In the verse itself, you did get stronger by age but i think every vampire changes individualy.  Just because one is of the same age doesn't mean you are just as strong as the other person.  And Darla was whooping Angel's ass right after being sired, she wasn't 400y old anymore, she was a newborn.  Also intresting, it was never stated that Angel was physicaly stronger then Spike in the later years, their destiny fight proves it, where Spike also sometimes gets the upperhand in a pure strength tussle.
May 22 2008 12:40 am   #22Guest
I don't think comparing Darla at her re-siring to most fledgelings is fair. For one thing, she awakens in human face-- huge difference. She doesn't immediately rush for a meal, filled with bloodlust. I think that shows more of the control she learned in the centuries as a vampire, and her knowledge and strength are the same as before. Plus, we only see Spike fight Angel one on one in In the Dark and Destiny, including the flashback to when William was a raw fledge and Angel over a hundred years old. Does anyone remember any other time? In the Dark was a pretty wimpy fight if you ask me, too, and more about distraction and needing to rush away or looka fter the humans around.
May 22 2008 04:45 am   #23Spikez_tart
Spike didn't all of the sudden grow strong enough to defeat Angel in season5  - Exactly, I think it was more of a character thing, Spike finally was strong enough emotionally and was motivated for a proper goal which gave him the edge.  Maybe.  I think Angel could always take Spike, which is why Spike takes no chances and sets him up to be captured in In the Dark.

I'm thinking of Spike's speech when he blows into town, drunk, and spies on Angel and says "I'm not afraid of you."  All bluster. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
May 22 2008 07:49 am   #24nmcil
The term mastervampire was only used with the master, Spike and Angel(and darla) were older vampires, but they have never been said to be mastervampires.

Does this mean that all the FF works that refer to him as a "master vampire" are based on error - this "master vampire Spike" is a FF title only?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 22 2008 08:34 am   #25Scarlet Ibis
Well, the Master certainly wasn't the only vampire referred to as "Master" in canon--Dracula, that vampire that tries to kill Faith when she first comes into town, The Immortal, and Angel posing as Angelus expresses his desire to be called Master.  Either way--though Angel(us) and Spike may not have been called Master, they were both certainly called Daddy :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 22 2008 07:34 pm   #26Eowyn315
Does this mean that all the FF works that refer to him as a "master vampire" are based on error - this "master vampire Spike" is a FF title only?
Yes, all references to "master vampire" as a recognized category or class of vampires are fanon.

Scarlet, your examples aren't "master vampires" in the vampire lore sense, just an expression of a general master/slave relationship. In fanon (which was taken from other vampire mythologies), master vampires are part of a vampire hierarchy, and they have more strength, skills, and/or status than a regular vampire. Sometimes, master status is determined by age, sometimes by bloodline or accomplishments (Spike has been given master status in some fics because he's killed slayers).

Also... it's never made clear that the Immortal is even a vampire, so he can't really be a "master vampire" anyway.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 22 2008 08:11 pm   #27Scarlet Ibis
Okay, but the vamp out to kill Faith was a master due to heirarchy and age--he was so old he had cloven hands or whatever.  I don't recall if that really fat one on the search for the amulet in s3 is called a Master or not...but he was super old too (I think).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
May 22 2008 09:22 pm   #28Dihcar
"Exactly, I think it was more of a character thing, Spike finally was strong enough emotionally and was motivated for a proper goal which gave him the edge.  Maybe.  I think Angel could always take Spike, which is why Spike takes no chances and sets him up to be captured in In the Dark."


You're right, it was a character thing, i think it was motivation mostly.  With the soul, Spike cared enough to want to defeat Angel/us.  But he had the potential for a while now. 
And Angel/us never had the reputation for being a great fighter, he even admitted himself in season2 or 3.  Spike was the one known as the "legendary dark warrior".  Also disagree that Angel could always take Spike out.  Spike in the dark jus took Angel's advice, since beating it out of him would have no effect, think of a better plan, thus he had him captured and tortured.  Back then he also wasn't intrested in defeating Angel, he wanted his gem back, can't get it back from a pile of dust.  There were only several instances where he really seemed to want some thing, like fighting those slayers, who were real challenges, he gained respect and a reputation for his actions.  Being the slayer of Angelus wouldn't, being the slayer of the champions of light would.

Scarlet, you're right, Kakistos was a master, he was ancient and his physical appearence had changed in age, but he wasn't called a mastervampire, i think The master was the only one called that. 
The prince of lies on the sub in the 40's with Spike and Angel, was also very old, but not a mastervampire.
Spike/Fray=The future
May 22 2008 09:50 pm   #29Scarlet Ibis
Well, Kakistos is referred to as "The Master" by Trick.  He's super old, disfigured from time, and referred to as "Master" just like old bat face.  He also had an order, just like the Master.  Master vampires existed in that verse, but were clearly a dying breed (according to Trick, it's "the modern vampire who sees the big picture," which is similar to what Angelus tells the Master upon first meeting him).  Angelus, Spike, Darla and Dru are never referred to as being Masters, and because of age and lack of an order, non would qualify (though Darla clearly had the potential, and the direct line to an actual Master).

As for Spike and Angel in "In the Dark," Spike's not a master of torture--he doesn't have the finesse.  He could have driven a rail road spike or something like that through Angel's head, but then, he wouldn't have been able to talk.  Spike has always been the better fighter--age doesn't automatically trump skill.  However,that isn't to say that Spike didn't get a beating from Angelus.  But all this talk of "defeating Angelus" is not...they weren't battling.  They had a rough patch clearly in that first year, but between 1881 and 1893, we see nothing.  But by 1894, they're a team, which I am sure did not happen over night.  I don't think all this posturing and "who has the bigger cock" B.S. lasted as long as the general public assumes.  Their problems started up again when Angelus returned (insane, I believe) and was hell bent on taking Dru to punish Spike and being a general prick, and ending the world.  In order to know a person as well as they know each other, you have to take the time to actually listen to them and get to know them.  I don't think this whole "Defeat Angel(us)/Defeat Spike" business really existed--like they have these huge, age old rivalries.  The problems started with the soul, and the loss of it.  So yeah, they take a ton of cheap shots (emphasis on the "cheap" ) at one another, but if you view s5 in its entirety, you'll see how much they did truly give a damn, and how much of a competition it wasn't.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 22 2008 10:29 pm   #30nmcil
Given that their vamp group is made up of predators and hunters it would be logical that there is an established "pecking order" I always felt that Darla held the position of "top dog" and that Angelus takes his position over Spike simply from his relationship to Darla - When he calls Darla and Dru "his women" It seemed more a way to established his dominance over Spike than an actual dominant position in the group structure.

"Destiny" established that this is the first time Spike has ever won a fight over Angel/Angelus - and the symbolism and flash back also give a visual & mythic connection to gaining a prize or gift of the female/female goddess and resurrection/transformation  via water/liquid/elixir cup/vessel. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 23 2008 12:01 am   #31Guest
I agree, Scarlet. William/Spike probably wasn't too happy about Dru's loyalty ultimately being with her Daddy, but while, as the Italy flashback shows, they got along, their spats were probably more like little/big brother things than hateful rivals. The soul causes big issues, as Angelus just runs off, it takes a while for Spike and Dru to learn about it, and Dru probably grieved for a long time before Spike managed to distract and placate her.
I do think Darla and Angelus were more equals by the time Spike came along, though. He was evil enough that Darla respected him, and they were basically as much like a married couple as vampires with little to no humanity can be. :) They challenged each other, and it's doubtful they would have split if he never got the curse.

CM
May 23 2008 05:23 am   #32Eowyn315
I don't recall if that really fat one on the search for the amulet in s3 is called a Master or not...but he was super old too (I think).
Balthazar was a demon, not a vampire. He had vampire minions, but is definitely not one himself (unless you can now kill vampires by electrocution).
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
May 24 2008 01:57 am   #33Guest
He's super old, disfigured from time, and referred to as "Master" just like old bat face. = Is this where Spike and Angel are headed?  Cute looking young guys who eventually become ugly monsters or even Ubervamps as in S7?  Maybe their souls will save them.
May 24 2008 02:08 am   #34Scarlet Ibis
Guest, if it ever came to that, I'd say they at least have another five hundred years before that occurred, and that's if it occurs at all.  You have to take into account that vampires have evolved physically, which is why the Ubervamps looked that way in the first place.  They, like the Master and Kakistos are a much older breed.  The Ubervamps are a purer form of the vampire demon in general.  I don't imagine Angel and Spike becoming deformed or disfigured through age--they are immortals after all.  Well, cept for maybe Angel, if you're following the comics.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jun 21 2008 02:49 am   #35lostboy
Either the site's been hacked, or I'm reading the best Dada-esque, stream of concsicousness poem ever written! 
Sep 04 2008 09:39 pm   #36Guest

We're definitely getting nonsense spammed.

Another thing about these two episodes is that they are the first indications we see that Willow is bisexual.I consider her bisexual.I think she just ran around going Gay now because she's a massive control freak and can't deal with being attracted to both sexes.

I saw on whedonesque once that they considering the first sign her relationship with Tara. I wasn't suprised at thier relationship at all.The only thing I was suprised at was that she wasn't evil after she deliberately messed up that demon finding spell.