I've been revisiting the "Angel" series lately, and have drawn the following conclusions:

1) Season 4 is the weakest, most poorly written season in the entire series.
2) Daniel Holtz is one of the strongest, best-written characters in the entire Buffyverse

Don't get me wrong.  Season Four had its bright spots, and even a few moments of brilliance.  But in general, the storytelling was mostly plodding and the writing was lazy.  There were some arcs that were drawn out over four or five episodes that Joss Whedon, David Fury or Bed Edlund could have accomplished in one.  Some of the recurring plotlines (the Wesley/Fred/Gunn love triangle, the Angel/Cordelia/Conner "ick" triangle, etc) were way too redundant and melodramatic, and lacked the sort of breezy poetry and polish that the brilliant Season 5 later recaptured.

THAT SAID!  Daniel Holtz was an amazing character, utterly unique in the Buffyverse.  He was the "bad guy" I found myself actively rooting for, and his final act of revenge was a brilliant masterpiece worthy of Titus Andronicus himself.    Unlike many of the heros and villains in Buffy and Angel, Holtz was totally self-possessed.  He didn't have any illusions about good and evil, and never pretended his cause was anything larger than vengaence.  Too often, I've felt like writers glossed over Angel's past, or tried to distort it into some kind of ribald Victorian acid trip.  I think Holtz' very existence was necessary to crush the notion that "the past is the past."  Victims of the past certainly rarely feel that way.   

But it goes deeper than that for me.  The character itself was extremely well written and acted, and with a line or two could sell you on the idea that "revenge" is the purest human emotion.  Even love can be sloppy, and forgiveness is about as dicy a high wire routine as there is, but the need for vengaence is all consuming.  The moment he arrives in the future, he's not awestruck by human progress or even distracted by it.  The only thing that matters is that his wife and child are still dead, and that the creature that killed them still walks the earth, unpunished.  THAT IS BAD ASS! 

Season three ends with what  seems like the perfect revenge (I was cheering!), but then Season 4 actually tries to water that down with a strange Mrs Robinson subplot concerning Cordelia and Connor.  At the end of the season, you are left with the impression that, somehow, Possesed Cordy destroyed Angel's relationship with his son, rather than Holtz..   Yet another reason to loathe Season 4, "The Vacation Year."

I absolutely agree with you on point 1. Not sure about point 2. I've only seen Angel once all the way through, so a lot of it, especially the middle seasons, are kind of fuzzy. I remember disliking the Holtz arc, but mainly because I disliked anything that had to do with Connor. I can't say I found Holtz particularly compelling (even if I only saw it once, you'd figure that's the kind of thing I'd remember), but all the things you've brought up give me something to look for when I rewatch...

Totally agree with you Lost Boy - Holtz makes a great connection to another GREAT SEEKER of vengeance/justice - Medea.  Both Medea and Holtz make innocent children the vital part of their actions and victims.  Holtz to me was the symbol  that Angel/Angelus was forever in his endless Curse Cycle - his past sins are  made flesh in Holtz. 

Angel/Angelus was never able to escape his self-made demons and  Wolfram and Hart made the perfect stage for his nightmare realms to pour out into his Real World.   I think  Holtz was his greatest adversary and the perfect connection to all his past deeds because Connor was his one great and good creative act and it was all turned to hatred and loss.  Holtz found the perfect instrument for vengeance in Connor - and he, as you stated,  completely gives over his life (like Medea and Titus) to his cause.

I also have been watching AtS again -  I sure wish that the series could have been completed on screen - while I love the comic season and probably the budget would not have been adequate to bring the LA in Hell arc with the same imagination and freedom, I would have been very satisfied with less Great CGI and with great scripts.

I think "revenge" is totally one of the most powerful of all human emotions - its the black side of Love and compassion; love turned to insanity.

nmcil, YES.  

Holtz is absoulutely kin to Medea!   And has a bit of the Count of Monte Cristo in him to boot!  Again, I don't think the Buffyverse ever really confronted the concept of "Revenge" until Holtz... Anya and Halfrek were like CARTOONS of vengaence compared to him.  The real desire for revenge isn't magical or mystical, it's rooted in HARD TRUTHS about the world.  Holtz at the end was the product of it... totally human with human emotions and conflicts, but yearning for closure above all else.  There were no false notes with his character.  I don't hate Angel, but believe me part of me was immmensly satisfied with the conclusion of Season Three, Angel sinking into the depths and Holtz finally at rest.... Cheers

Eowyn - you GOTTA watch again him again.   There ARE some really great Angel episodes (Smiletime, Lineage), but no other secondary character measures up to Holtz for me.  Great device and characterization, and perfect wrapup... I could write a hundred fics and never bring Holtz back, his arc was so solid.

Holtz was an excellent villain. And one of the best written ideas of it, is that if you didn't know a thing about Angel, Holtz *isn't* the villain. You can say that the obsession for vengeance was unhealthy, and that using Connor was cruel to the boy, too, but he still had his sympathetic moments. And BOY do I remember first watching and thinking that was one cold, scary dude. You almost think he's rethinking it and having some compassion when he lets them go after Connor's born, only to tell Sahjahn that his real great revenge will be taking the boy away in the most painful way possible. Hardcore!! Keith Szarabajka is one hell of an actor. (The next role I saw him in, he had no beard, no accent, and his voice was smoother, and all of a sudden, I'm going "OMG, that's Holtz!!!")

The only problem I have with season 4 is the specific parts of the Connor/Cordy romance. I'm fine with Connor going on a downward spiral. I was fine with Cordy being possessed (hoping she'd still have a chance with Angel later). But the fact that they had to change Connor's age from 16 to 18 REALLY indicated the romance part should have been a discarded idea. That kinda crap is supposed to stay in soap operas. But Angelus' cruel words - great. Faith's arc and Wesley - excellent. Fred saving the day against Jasmine - hell yeah! Finally, a normal non-superpowered chick got to be a hero just because she used her brain. Everything with Wes, really, was brilliant. What a character arc, I tell ya.

CM

Totally agree on Season IV - it came along just when I had the ability to record or watch Angel in real time, and I was very excited about finally being able to watch it.  Then, I think I bailed on the season before it was over.  Since I hadn't seem much of Angel up until then, I just assumed the show sucked and didn't watch it again until Season V.  However, now that I've started watching my dvds, I can see that the other seasons were much better and more fun.

Can't respond about Holtz because I've seen so little of him.  I would have to watch all the way through and that's not happening for a while.

There were a few Season 4 episodes that were well done.  The zombie episode (Habeas Corpses?) was pretty great, and the Episode where Angel's soul gets taken out was nice n' trippy (David Fury wrote that one, one of the show's best writers IMO).   But I thought the followup "Soulless" was weak: Angelus saying mean things in a cage for a whole hour, a sort of "Yoko Factor" minus the charm.  Ten minutes of that would have been enough, I think, then Angelus is off and evilin'.  

The team of Sarah Fain and Elizabeth Craft wrote a whole slew of eppies for Season 4, and I don't think I liked any of them.  Occasionally you see eppies in there that were written by as many as three people, which smacks of confused storytelling to me.  I could point to a few dozen fic writers who could've written the Season 4 plotline better, and could've written many of the scripts better too.  The last three episodes of Season 4 were very good (and brought in Edlund for the first time, who I think was responsible for a lot of the awesomeness of Season 5).   The first three episodes were pretty good too.  But a lot of the stuff in between felt very soft to me. 

Alex Denisoff did some fine acting in Season 4, but I thought some of the lines and scenes they fed him were an awful waste of his talent.  He might be the most talented actor on either series... the subplot with Lilah showed how much he could do with very little.  I feel like Season 5 was like a reward for him making it through Season 4... I just re-watched the Wesley-centered "Lineage" last night and its in my top five faves for either series.  And the episode where he agrees to help Illyria find her place in the world:

ILLYRIA:  "You will help me?"
WESLEY:  "Yes."
ILLYRIA:  "Because I look like her?"
WESLEY:  "Yes."

What he can do with a single word like "Yes" is pretty amazing, Emmy-deserving stuff.  "Wesley the Series" with Ben Edlund at the helm would have been brilliant stuff!

I agree that season four was the worst of "Angel," and kind of all over the place, but it did have some amazing moments.  Also, there's no way it was worst than Buffy s4.  Or s7, I'd even go so far as to say.  As crazy and ridiculous Ats s4 was, I enjoyed watching it more overall than either season of Buffy.  Actually, I think Angel overall as a series is superior to Buffy.

Holtz was a great villain.  However, I did feel bad for Angel because technically, Holtz was seeking revenge on someone who didn't (currently) exist.  I don't know that I'd ever feel so vengeful as to take it out on an innocent baby.  Let's not consider the fact that he went to a hell dimension purposely, but there were times there where he abandoned Connor to teach him survival.  I know he's a super being, but how in the blue hell do you abandon a child?  In a hell dimension, telling him that if he were worthy, he'd find his way back?  That's beyond cruel--it's sick.  I would have felt more for Holtz as a character if he actually loved Stephen, but his revenge didn't allow him to.  I mean, his ultimate goal was to hurt Angel.  He could have tied him up somewhere, tortured him (or sunk him to the bottom of the sea himself), and placing a slab of meat that was baby sized in a sack, and beat it right in front of Angel, telling him it was Connor (yes, I know he has senses, but let's assume Holtz worked a magical way around that.  After all, all of those vampire worshipers followed Angel, and he was holding a teddy).  That would have crushed Angel--thinking his son was dead.  Beaten to death, no less.  (Also, I didn't think of that myself--saw it in some  C rate horror movie, but with a cat or dog--not a baby.)

As for Angelus in s4, well, he had to be in that cage.  He wasn't going to stand around and lecture them all, poking fun at them (which I found hilarious), if he wasn't.  They needed a device in order for him to be in a position to mentally take the group down.  Like Spike with his chip, the writer's were saying, "How do we insert him into the group without looking wicked suspicious to the audience?  Why, we cage him..."

Alexis Denisof is a brilliant actor.  However, out of both series, I don't believe he trumps James Marsters.  I'd give him a close second because he's brought to the brink of tears (and I'm not a crier), where as JM has made me cry.  That's my own personal test.  But I do believe both of them.

He might be the most talented actor on either series...

Yes Indeed - I loved him in Wesley World's Greatest Git and Wesley Finding his way and then completely loved his Dark Wesley - Wesley and Spike both were gifted with great scripts and powerful character development.  These two characters were actually the heart of the series for me, they embodied all that from my perspective was the best of the series; the transformation and exploration of the human being and all the faces & masks that people use to live out their lives.  While Buffy and Angel/Angelus were the foundation and source of all the series action, from my POV, these two felt like the most "real world" people.

I think often of Alexis Denisof and wish so much that his acting career was more active - he is such a fine actor.  I just wish that he would get more work, especially with AH having so much success with HIMYM - I wish that he had more great roles of his own.   Kinda of think that had Alexis Denisof been given the role of Harry Dresden, the series might have had a much larger audience, he would have made a terrfic Harry.  I was a big Dresden fan and enjoy watching him, which I did again only last night.

Scarlet, I don't remember Holtz "abandoning" Conner... was that detail penciled in somewhere in Season 4 to "hate on Holtz?"  Holtz was NOT a villain to me, and I don't believe he was written that way.  If Holtz was a villain, than Spike was three times the villain... both were "made" by Angelus in one way or another.  Villainry and vengaence are two separate subjects for me.  Was Titus Andronicus a villain?  Their motives and methods were the same.   The only diff was that, unlike Titus, Holtz didn't bake his enemy's evil children into a pie. 

Holtz was Conner's "dad,"  Angel was just his "father."  The idea that Holtz couldn't "fully" love was not because he was evil... it was because he was broken by evil.  The decision to take Conner into another world was made in a split second, under duress... Holtz's original plan was nothing of the sort.  If you remember, he planned to take Conner to Wisconsin and raise him as his own son and love him as fully as he could, away from the world of monsters and special effects.  That was the grand "evil" scheme!  I think it's worth noting that Angel made a VERY similar decision to that at the end of Season 4, when he decided to let Conner forget he ever knew him, and grow up with a normal family.   

Connor mentions it--he said something along the lines of his father doing that to sharpen his hunting skills.  Stephen didn't say it like he resented it or anything, he said it matter of factly, like it was normal.  And yes, I do recall the whole stealing away to Wisconsin bit, but abandoning a child for even a moment, purposely, and I think we can both agree, is not something deserving of the Parent of the Year award.

As for Holtz and Angel making similar decisions--I disagree.  He wasn't taking Connor away to give him a better life, he was doing it to hurt Angel. Angel let Connor go because he knew the alternative would be greater.  Connor was sick in the head, attempting homocide and suicide.  When Holtz took him as a baby, he was in a very much loving environment, with a father and family who genuinely loved him.  The situations are totally different. 

Scarlet... I wouldn't call ANY of the characters in that show Parent of the Year material, lol.

Point taken... BUT... I would say the scene in the car, where Holtz is holding the baby Conner and what'ser name is trying to make the big getaway, there was QUITE a bit of tenderness there.  Holtz was trying to kill two birds with one stone... take his revenge on Angel AND restore the son that was taken from him.  He thought that with his vengaence taken and with a son to raise and love, he could finally heal the old wounds that were consuming him.  I'm pretty sure he actually says that, almost verbatim (I could be mistaken) but its certainly implied.  The actor did a fine job of showing the duality there in my opinion.  And Holtz absolutely believed he could give Connor a better life than Angel, regardless of whether that was true or not.

One other thing... when Holtz grabbed Conner and leapt into the portal, he did it to protect Conner... Lilah had just given the order to shoot, Sanjan was threatening to suck everyone into the Netherworld.  Holtz could have walked away and allowed Angel, the baby and everyone else to rot.  But he didn't, and IMO that was part of the complexity I loved about the character.

ETA:
(from Sleep Tight)

Holtz: "Hello, son. I'm you're father. And that strong lady with the black eye is your mother. Your name is Steven Franklin Thomas. And you're going to grow up with me on a little ranch in the middle of nowhere. (To Justine) What's it like in Utah?"
Justine: "It's pretty."
Holtz: "Let's go."


*LOL - I said Wyoming, Wisconsin... everything but "Utah," their actual destination.  No offense intended to anyone from there!  I realize they are all different places!
 

Yes that's true--he did leap into that portal to save Connor.  And that does specifically go to the complexity that is Daniel Holtz.  I don't honestly think his revenge and hatred ran so deep that he would jump into a hell dimension just to say "neener neener" to Angel.  He was straddling a huge chasm though--no matter what, Connor, or Stephen, was the product of two vampires who killed his wife, his son, and turned his daughter into a vampire.

And on a sidenote, his daughter wasn't crazy with the bloodlust, and didn't try to hurt her father.  A child vampire as well as a fledging, one might be inclined to think otherwise.  Her strongest will was to hold her father, and to not die. I think that just goes to point out the complexity of unsouled vampires, which was discussed in some other thread....Also, the fact that it is Holtz, who doesn't stake her quickly which would be more humane, considering, but throws her out in the sun, to burn slowly, goes to show how hardened his character was.  That was a bit odd to me, and perhaps why I do not sympathize with his character as you do.  If he had to kill her, and being a vampire hunter, I know that he felt that way, why not wait until she was sleeping?  Close her eyes, so she wouldn't know it was coming?  Have it be quick, at the very least?  Regardless of how one feels about vampires in general (and his daughter did not exhibit the typical signs of one, as i stated earlier), she still had his daughter's face, in her body.  And the fact that he held her for quite awhile, singing a lullaby to her, tells me that he didn't completely feel as if she was already dead and gone due to the demon.

ETA: Not saying that s4 (and s7) didn't have some great eps.  But as a whole...I just wasn't that entertained.  That was actually the season where I stopped watching midway.  I didn't watch that season all together until reruns later, and when my mom bought me that DVD set (I had asked for five, but kept it anyway).

"Also, there's no way it was worst than Buffy s4..." 

Blowing my mind there... I LOVED Buffy Season Four.  I might  be in the minority there, but man... "Hush!", "A New Man!", "This Year's Girl!,"  "Superstar (ROFL)!!!"   And Adam was a cool villain... Frankenstein meets the Terminator.   Buffy s4 whips Angel s4 by a country mile in my book.   But Angel s5 is freakishly superior to both. 

Well - after this great Holtz discussion I will watch those episodes again -

The thing with Holtz and children - like with Medea, the greatest hurt that she could work against Jason was to taking away his love relationship and his progeny, plus he is also denied his new wife - all the same things that Angel/Angelus takes away from Holtz.  And another important factor of the Vengeance Cycle between Holtz and Angel/Angelus is that Holtz by being a demon/vampire hunter places himself and his family in the direct line of danger.  Holtz, like Jason, . must also take some responsibility for all the chaos and tragic consequences.

In some ways, Holtz also speaks to Angel/Angelus and his quest for redemption - Angel/Angelus can never make up for the killings of his past, he could only try to be a force for Good in the now - this, IMO, is one of the symbols of Holtz-Connor-Angel/Angelus - there is no way to erase death and the only act that might bring some redemption is personal sacrifice of life.  The black persona of Holtz would see Connor as that needed sacrifice and Angel/Angelus could only sacrifice his own life as exchange.  Holtz however knows that even beyond the death of Angel/Angelus, the loss or death of Connor will be infinitely the greater sorrow.  The only time that we ever see Angel/Angelus actually laugh and smile, be connected with any joy in the entire series is when he has Connor.  Medea and Titus know this lesson as well - don't most people, on some conscious or unconscious level, really want to die before our husbands or loved ones?

I am so excited and interested to see where Joss Whedon is going to take Angel after the Fall - I am so curious about the completion of the "Down In A Blaze of Glory"  choice that Angel/Angelus made.  

nmcil - I hear yuh.   But the reason I liken him to Titus more than Medea is because duty and nobility are what put Holtz's family in harm's way, as they did for the honorable Titus.  I wouldn't cast dispersions on a cop or politician for marrying and having children.  Maybe I'm the one who has to watch these again (which I will very gladly do), but I do not recall Holtz ever wanting to harm Conner, never even conceiving of it.   The unborn Conner he was stalking in Darla's womb doesn't count for me... then he was still all Chuck Bronson, and the "child" was more of a revenge prop than something real for him.   But the instant he saw Conner born, he was transformed radically.   In a way, his thirst for vengaence turned into a quest for justice and healing.  Instead of killing Angel, he would raise Conner as his own son, and love him.  The trade seemed fair, no?  Angelus and Darla wiped his family from the face of the earth.  Holtz's revenge would be firm, but would contain a measure of humanity that was missing from the vampires' capricious murder spree.  In other words, the murder had hardened Holtz's heart, but not blackened it, you know?

ETA: 
BUT... during his stint in the Hell dimension, I think the thirst for vengeance returned stronger than ever.  Would the Holtz raising Conner/Stephen on a farm in Wyoming have crafted such an elaborate, diabolical revenge scheme?  I don't think so.  But, Hell will probably do that to ya.

ETA2:
If being a vampire hunter makes you partly responsible for your family's deaths at their hands, what does that say about Buffy?  If she had a child, would it be considered "fair game" somehow?  If vampires killed it, would we "blame the victim" i.e. Buffy?  Same question for Xander.  Or Spike.    

Had to watch LOST tonight and plan on watching some of the Holtz episodes - you  make an excellent point about Holtz and his sense of doing a duty on the side of justice and protecting the human population against vampires - nothing shows his understanding of "duty" than his having to kill his turned child.   He, like all warriors,  must accept the consequences that can arise from their struggles and battles.   For certain with the appearance of Lilah and her W&H forces, plans changed and he goes through the portal - he chose to try to save his life.  However, once they are back in the LA realm, Connor becomes his weapon, he very directly manipulates Connor - am I remembering correctly that he orchestrates his own death?  


I think the thirst for vengeance returned stronger than ever

An important part of this story was that both character have encased themselves with hatred and anger, Holtz as the human seeking vengeance above all and Angel/Angelus from his anger and torment of Holtz and their choices come back on them.  However we interpret their story it is a tragedy and both men suffer much and one thing is sure, Angel/Angelus pays dearly for his killing of that family.  I apply the Medea myh primarily because that is the one I am familiar with. 

Yes, Holtz has Justine kill him in such a way to make it look like Angel bit and drained him. That's what sets Connor off to sink Angel to the bottom of the ocean. He met with Angel before this and gave him a letter for Connor/Stephen, that Connor was to be with his birth father now and learn from him, and Holtz was going to go away. Angel has the hope that Holtz is finally going to give him back his son in a meaningful way, then he gets framed for Holtz's murder.

Since Connor had never seen an actual vampire bite before, a dead man with a bleeding neck plus Justine telling him it was Angel was all he needed to believe the lie.

CM

CM...YES... that was hardcore.  One of the best deaths of the show.  I rank it up there with Fred's.

(from Benediction)

Angel: "You stole my son."
Holtz: "I kept your son alive. You murdered mine."
Angel: "I was different then."
Holtz: "Yes.  So was I.  You feel remorse. You feel remorse yet you can't express it."

...

Justine: "Don't make me do it. I can't."
Holtz: "You said you'd do anything for me. Come on, Justine. I'm not asking you to follow me into hell. Just help send me there."

Yeah, he was one cruel bastard by the end. That consistent indifference of his is just chilling, and he *knows* what this'll do to Justine and doesn't care a lick. She was just another tool for him, because she was a believer. Diabolical, as an old man from Hell. D'Hoffryn probably has it all on film. :P

It was nice to have such an intelligent villian on AtS, since the ones on BtVS were overall quite stupid!

CM

CM - LOL, I guess I'll NEVER convince most people that Holtz wasn't actually a "villain."    :P   Oh well, can't say I didn't try.

R.I.P. Daniel Holtz.

Angel: "You stole my son." Holtz: "I kept your son alive. You murdered mine." Angel: "I was different then." Holtz: "Yes. So was I. You feel remorse. You feel remorse yet you can't express it."

Perfect example of his clarity of purpose and also my idea of how both characters continued to be imprisoned; one by rage, the other by his acts of past killings.  I also see Holtz more as his prime adversary, as it should be, as vampires mainly commit killings of humans.  And what a complex set of ideas we come to if we  consider the Buffyverse idea of Balance and Good vs Evil.   What do we make of Wesley shooting that lawyer's knee, he to was a man set on his purpose. 

Thanks for starting this topic, always great to discuss episodes -

Well, Lostboy, Holtz isn't or is a villain entirely from POV. From Angel and his group's POV, Holtz is the bad guy from the moment he tries to kill Angel. Angel understands why he's being pursued and is somewhat sympathetic - until Connor is taken. The show means for us to see him as a villain because he's on the opposite side from our titular character. To Holtz's followers, of course he isn't a villain - he's the leader of their cause against vampires and demons. Against "evil". But he crosses a line even by humans standards by taking Connor. He might have had the 'right' for vengeance against Angel and Darla, but he isn't in the right for taking Connor, whether they ended up on a ranch in Montana or a hell dimension. Connor was just an innocent baby.

:)

CM