 |
BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Spike and Anya: To Scooby or not to Scooby, that is the question
I've written this essay a long time ago, hope you guys enjoy it :)
Let's start with the reasons to why Anya mingled better with the Scoobies than Spike:
1- First impression
2- Seen crimes, unseen crimes
3- Currently human, currently soulless vampire
4- Relationships with a member of the Scooby Gang
5- The desire to become a Scooby
1- First Impression
Buffy: Who are you?
Spike: You'll find out on Saturday.
Buffy: What happens on Saturday?
Spike: I kill you.
This is the first time Buffy and the gang met Spike, he was a new villain who was so confidant he would kill Buffy that he set a day for it. No one knew about this new villain, not even Giles. The only one who knew about Spike was Angel, and the information he had wasn't thrilling.
Angel: (suddenly appears) He's worse. (they all look at him) Once he
starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.
Spike is described as a dangerous killer whose purpose is to kill the slayer (Buffy). It was the major idea for three years, not a short time obviously. S2, S3 and S4 all had Spike trying to kill Buffy, or talking about it, in case of S4 chipped!Spike, so it's really hard to accept him as anything else that easily.
As for Anya, she was introduced as a new student in Sunnydale High, she's known to be Cordelia's friend, this term is used a bit loosely though. None of the Scoobies know her. Willow was the first one to meet her:
Anya: Uh, Willow?
Willow: (turns around) Uh, hi. (doesn't recognize)
Anya: (gestures at herself) Anya. (smiles) I'm sort of new here.
(hopefully) Um, I know Cordelia?
Willow: (smiles thinly) Oh, fun.
Anya asked Willow to do a 'safe' spell for her, in which later Willow discovered that Anya was lying to her. Willow didn't treat Anya like a killer – Anya didn't kill anyone in the scene for Willow to think of her as a murderer - but a misguided student. She didn't know Anya used to be a demon, and her first impression of Anya was a student who had a knack for dark magics.
Then at the Bronze, Anya appeared in new unpleasant colors in front of Willow. Of all the Scoobies, it's Willow who saw the bad in Anya, keep in mind what Willow saw was nowhere as bad as they first met Spike, but it was still enough to make Willow dislike Anya.
Later, the Scoobies learned that Anya was a former vengeance demon who had granted Cordelia a wish. They knew that Anya was human now, with no powers, and gave her a warning (like always, the Scoobies rule is 'Can't kill the human or the defenseless no matter how evil they are')
Giles: (to Anya, warningly) Don't you try any tricks now, dear.
Anya: (sulkily) I don't need tricks. (arrogantly contemptuous) When I get my powers back, you will all grovel before me.
Both Willows roll their eyes and shake their heads at her delusions of grandeur.
Willow's reaction was also the Scoobies' naïve look on both Anya and Spike. Anya will never get her powers back, she's no threat. Spike will never get his chip out, he's no threat. Perhaps that naivety is one of the reasons the Scoobies are heroes. While they don't like Spike or Anya, they give them a chance for redemption and the chance to live.
Seen Crimes, Unseen Crimes
The Scoobies had a longer history of badness with Spike than with Anya. They had seen Spike in action, they had lived it, more than once. From trying constantly to kill Buffy, to horrifying the whole school, to lying to a big number of lost kids with false promises to turn them into vampires, to kidnapping Xander and Willow, beating Xander on two occasions, going against the Scoobies with Adam… and many more events that the Scoobies lived through, all that had a very bad Spike image drilled into their minds. The only Scoobies who didn't seem to dislike Spike were Dawn and Tara, because they didn't come face to face with Evil!Spike.
It is a huge difference between living and seeing a murderer in action than hearing about past crimes from a former murderer. Anya had her stories, she proudly talked of her past because she believed she did the right thing: the men she tortured deserved her punishments. The Scoobies either ignored what she said or brushed it away because Anya for her part was trying her best to mingle into the human world, deeply loved Xander, was clearly no threat to them. What made it easier to accept her was that she was never seen in action until S7. The only Scooby who seemed to vocally dislike Anya is Willow, because she's the only one who dealt with Evil!Anya in person.
Currently Human, Currently Soulless Vampire
Anya was turned into a human from S3. Since S4, she's trying so hard to fit in. She has a boyfriend and a job, and her humanity was impossible to miss. And ever since she became part of their lives, she never betrayed them… until she became a demon again in the second half of S6. Actually once Anya becomes a demon again and starts killing, Buffy didn't hesitate to kill her.
Spike was a soulless vampire. He didn't pretend to be anything else. Certainly Buffy feels he's "like a serial killer in prison." Spike was capable of love obviously, but he only showed affection to Buffy, and during S5/early S6 to Dawn, usually he's too caught up in the Big Bad act. Only Buffy was able to see behind the façade because Spike allowed her to. The Scoobies see him saving their lives, but can't trust him completely, because of the lack of soul and the way Spike usually expresses himself to them.
Relationships with a member of the Scooby Gang
When Spike fell in love with Buffy, it's obvious she was repelled by it. She didn't want his love and she was mostly annoyed and freaked. It was reflected on the people around her. Willow, one of the few Scoobies who showed Spike some tenderness, was also freaked. Joyce wasn't thrilled either. Giles threatened Spike not to come near Buffy. All because Buffy didn't want Spike.
WILLOW: Well, he ... he actually told you? He, he said, "I love you"?
BUFFY: Well, I-I didn't let him get that far, but ... I could see the words coming.
JOYCE: Honey, did you ... somehow, unintentionally, lead him on in any way? Uh, send him signals?
BUFFY: (ponders) Well, I ... I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base.
Joyce looks upset, stands up.
WILLOW: Buffy, um ... I'm really worried.
JOYCE: So am I. He could become dangerous.
BUFFY: Not really. As long as it's still chips ahoy in Spike's head he can't hurt me, or any of us. You know, besides, this'll probably just blow over. You know? It's just some weird Spike thing. He'll have the hots for some gak demon before we know it.
WILLOW: I don't know. Uh, these things can, can become pretty twisted.
JOYCE: (comes back to sit down again) Yeah, and Spike, I mean, he's...
BUFFY: Pretty twisted.
JOYCE: Yeah.
WILLOW: Well, well, you made it clear, right? That it could never happen. That there's no possible way. Ever.
BUFFY: Yeah! (looks at them) I, I think so. I don't know, I, I was just so thrown.
WILLOW: Well, Buffy, you have to talk to him again.
BUFFY: What? No. No, no, no, I have to avoid him again.
WILLOW: Not until you shut him down completely. If he thinks there's even a little chance with you, there's no telling what he'll do.
Buffy looks concerned.
With Anya, it was different. She asked Xander to take her to the prom. Xander didn't seem that concerned about her past. She looks so much like a student for him to care, and he was probably too desperate for a date to the prom. It was apparent he didn't want her as anything else at the moment. The reactions of his friends:
Oz: Anya, huh? Interesting choice.
Xander: Choice is kind of a broad term for my situation. See, it's either Anya or the sock puppet of love for this boy. (holds his right hand in puppet shape, speaks in silly voice) I love you, Xander. I'll never leave you.
Willow: Well, if Anya tries to get you killed, put me down for a big 'I told you so.'
Xander: (puppet) Who's this Anya? Is she prettier than me?
Willow: She just better not try to cross me. That's all I'm saying.
Buffy: Well, at least we all have someone to go with now. Some of us are going with demons, but I think that's a valid lifestyle choice. More importantly, I have the kick dress.
So of all of them, Willow seems the most concerned, mainly because of what had happened earlier between her and Anya. Oz is laid back as usual. Buffy just wants everyone to be happy because she is.
One of the main differences between Spike and Anya, the biggest, is that Xander accepted Anya. He wanted her to be his girlfriend, he acknowledged her as one, despite Willow's obvious dislike of Anya, he still kept dating her. He usually brought her to every Scooby meeting ever since they started sleeping together. He took her to Buffy's Thanksgiving gathering. He made her part of them, and while his friends didn't warm up to her, they accepted her presence because Xander liked her.
As for Spike, Buffy was ashamed of him. She didn't want him around her friends, she didn't even want to tell them about her relationship with him. Other than Xander, the rest of the Scoobies didn't mind Spike being around and Dawn liked him just fine. If Buffy had pushed Spike into the group – just like Xander did with Anya – the Scoobies will accept him, and like Willow was able to deal with Anya being around, Xander will eventually be able to deal with Spike being around (He dealt with his presence just fine in S7).
Spike would be a permanent Scooby member if Buffy just said the word. That will lead us to another important point:
The desire to become a Scooby
Did Spike really want to become a Scooby? He never seemed to exhibit any desire to fit in. While he was chipped and unsouled he always emphasized his vampireness and was antagonistic towards the Scoobies. He usually threatened to kill them once his chip stopped working. The only reason he teamed up with the Scoobies was for his own benefit. It was in exchange of money and blood, to survive.
His priorities did change after he fell in love with Buffy. When Buffy died, Spike seemed to be part of the group. He was joking with Giles, he fought side by side with Xander, he was there for Dawn… but once Buffy came back, he didn't seem to want to hang out with them anymore than they want to hang out with him. Even his affection to Dawn seemed to disappear once Buffy came back. Were all his contributions in the summer between S5 and S6 for the promise he gave to Buffy? Certainly he was more interested in Buffy the rest of S6. After he was souled, he was still more focused on Buffy, he didn't even make an effort to patch things up with Dawn.
On the other hand, Anya made some kind of effort to assimilate into the human world, and she tried to get along with the Scoobies. With time she did end up caring about their well-being. She showed a desire to become human, a desire to help the Scoobies with research, a desire to become one of them. Perhaps it was all for Xander's sake, and while she was tactless and unbearable at times, she was always eager to help and lend a hand. She was never sarcastic about it until S7, for obvious reasons.
Was It Entirely the Scoobies' Fault?
![[info]](http://p-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
jgracio had said that the Scoobies were made to be naïve morons because they had quickly accepted Spike as one of them once he had gotten the chip.
Let's see: While the Scoobies found it hard to warm up to Spike, Giles and Xander gave Spike a place to stay with free blood. Giles actually let him roam in his place without chains. Xander only chained him when he went to sleep. The decision to move out was clearly Spike's, no one kicked him out.
The Scoobies more often than not ask Spike for help and information later, in which he keeps reminding them that he's evil and that he doesn't like them and that he'd kill them one day when he finds a way to get rid of the chip. The Scoobies still trusted him and considered him on their side. Why would Giles keep blood in his fridge after Spike moved out if he didn't consider Spike one of them? Why would Willow stop Spike from committing suicide? Why would Xander put his life in danger of being hit by falling rocks to save Spike's life? In The Yoko Factor, when Spike planned to 'pretend to go back under disguise into the Initiative', Xander delivered him the clothes appropriate with the 'job'.
The Scoobies got burned for their naivety when Spike started working with Adam, and betrayed that forming trust they had for him.
Xander: Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done--nah, I can't even act surprised.
Funnily enough, later when Spike asks for forgiveness, Giles and Willow turn their eyes to Xander as if asking his permission to forgive Spike. Xander shrugs and lets him be.
The Scoobies' attitude toward Spike had always been neutral, even Xander and Giles, it was until Buffy told them that Spike is in love with her and appeared grossed by it that Giles and Xander started to be overprotective. Personally, if Buffy returned Spike's feelings by that time, I don't think the Scoobies would have minded having him around, and even Xander will eventually loosen up, he seemed to take it well when he thought that Buffy was sleeping with Spike in S5.
In Conclusion:
Spike would have easily become a Scooby if he made a better first impression, played nice with the Scoobies, had a soul, was accepted sooner by Buffy, and expressed a desire to become one of them. Anya was as rude as Spike, but she was never a threat. She was liked by Xander, she never tried to kill the Scoobies the way Spike did, she tried to fit in, and she was human.
All and all, I think if S7 was made into two seasons with more space for Scoobies/Spike development, I'm sure Spike would have become a Scooby. It's not just about the Scoobies accepting him, it's also about Spike's desire to be one of them.
Let's start with the reasons to why Anya mingled better with the Scoobies than Spike:
1- First impression
2- Seen crimes, unseen crimes
3- Currently human, currently soulless vampire
4- Relationships with a member of the Scooby Gang
5- The desire to become a Scooby
1- First Impression
Buffy: Who are you?
Spike: You'll find out on Saturday.
Buffy: What happens on Saturday?
Spike: I kill you.
This is the first time Buffy and the gang met Spike, he was a new villain who was so confidant he would kill Buffy that he set a day for it. No one knew about this new villain, not even Giles. The only one who knew about Spike was Angel, and the information he had wasn't thrilling.
Angel: (suddenly appears) He's worse. (they all look at him) Once he
starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.
Spike is described as a dangerous killer whose purpose is to kill the slayer (Buffy). It was the major idea for three years, not a short time obviously. S2, S3 and S4 all had Spike trying to kill Buffy, or talking about it, in case of S4 chipped!Spike, so it's really hard to accept him as anything else that easily.
As for Anya, she was introduced as a new student in Sunnydale High, she's known to be Cordelia's friend, this term is used a bit loosely though. None of the Scoobies know her. Willow was the first one to meet her:
Anya: Uh, Willow?
Willow: (turns around) Uh, hi. (doesn't recognize)
Anya: (gestures at herself) Anya. (smiles) I'm sort of new here.
(hopefully) Um, I know Cordelia?
Willow: (smiles thinly) Oh, fun.
Anya asked Willow to do a 'safe' spell for her, in which later Willow discovered that Anya was lying to her. Willow didn't treat Anya like a killer – Anya didn't kill anyone in the scene for Willow to think of her as a murderer - but a misguided student. She didn't know Anya used to be a demon, and her first impression of Anya was a student who had a knack for dark magics.
Then at the Bronze, Anya appeared in new unpleasant colors in front of Willow. Of all the Scoobies, it's Willow who saw the bad in Anya, keep in mind what Willow saw was nowhere as bad as they first met Spike, but it was still enough to make Willow dislike Anya.
Later, the Scoobies learned that Anya was a former vengeance demon who had granted Cordelia a wish. They knew that Anya was human now, with no powers, and gave her a warning (like always, the Scoobies rule is 'Can't kill the human or the defenseless no matter how evil they are')
Giles: (to Anya, warningly) Don't you try any tricks now, dear.
Anya: (sulkily) I don't need tricks. (arrogantly contemptuous) When I get my powers back, you will all grovel before me.
Both Willows roll their eyes and shake their heads at her delusions of grandeur.
Willow's reaction was also the Scoobies' naïve look on both Anya and Spike. Anya will never get her powers back, she's no threat. Spike will never get his chip out, he's no threat. Perhaps that naivety is one of the reasons the Scoobies are heroes. While they don't like Spike or Anya, they give them a chance for redemption and the chance to live.
Seen Crimes, Unseen Crimes
The Scoobies had a longer history of badness with Spike than with Anya. They had seen Spike in action, they had lived it, more than once. From trying constantly to kill Buffy, to horrifying the whole school, to lying to a big number of lost kids with false promises to turn them into vampires, to kidnapping Xander and Willow, beating Xander on two occasions, going against the Scoobies with Adam… and many more events that the Scoobies lived through, all that had a very bad Spike image drilled into their minds. The only Scoobies who didn't seem to dislike Spike were Dawn and Tara, because they didn't come face to face with Evil!Spike.
It is a huge difference between living and seeing a murderer in action than hearing about past crimes from a former murderer. Anya had her stories, she proudly talked of her past because she believed she did the right thing: the men she tortured deserved her punishments. The Scoobies either ignored what she said or brushed it away because Anya for her part was trying her best to mingle into the human world, deeply loved Xander, was clearly no threat to them. What made it easier to accept her was that she was never seen in action until S7. The only Scooby who seemed to vocally dislike Anya is Willow, because she's the only one who dealt with Evil!Anya in person.
Currently Human, Currently Soulless Vampire
Anya was turned into a human from S3. Since S4, she's trying so hard to fit in. She has a boyfriend and a job, and her humanity was impossible to miss. And ever since she became part of their lives, she never betrayed them… until she became a demon again in the second half of S6. Actually once Anya becomes a demon again and starts killing, Buffy didn't hesitate to kill her.
Spike was a soulless vampire. He didn't pretend to be anything else. Certainly Buffy feels he's "like a serial killer in prison." Spike was capable of love obviously, but he only showed affection to Buffy, and during S5/early S6 to Dawn, usually he's too caught up in the Big Bad act. Only Buffy was able to see behind the façade because Spike allowed her to. The Scoobies see him saving their lives, but can't trust him completely, because of the lack of soul and the way Spike usually expresses himself to them.
Relationships with a member of the Scooby Gang
When Spike fell in love with Buffy, it's obvious she was repelled by it. She didn't want his love and she was mostly annoyed and freaked. It was reflected on the people around her. Willow, one of the few Scoobies who showed Spike some tenderness, was also freaked. Joyce wasn't thrilled either. Giles threatened Spike not to come near Buffy. All because Buffy didn't want Spike.
WILLOW: Well, he ... he actually told you? He, he said, "I love you"?
BUFFY: Well, I-I didn't let him get that far, but ... I could see the words coming.
JOYCE: Honey, did you ... somehow, unintentionally, lead him on in any way? Uh, send him signals?
BUFFY: (ponders) Well, I ... I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base.
Joyce looks upset, stands up.
WILLOW: Buffy, um ... I'm really worried.
JOYCE: So am I. He could become dangerous.
BUFFY: Not really. As long as it's still chips ahoy in Spike's head he can't hurt me, or any of us. You know, besides, this'll probably just blow over. You know? It's just some weird Spike thing. He'll have the hots for some gak demon before we know it.
WILLOW: I don't know. Uh, these things can, can become pretty twisted.
JOYCE: (comes back to sit down again) Yeah, and Spike, I mean, he's...
BUFFY: Pretty twisted.
JOYCE: Yeah.
WILLOW: Well, well, you made it clear, right? That it could never happen. That there's no possible way. Ever.
BUFFY: Yeah! (looks at them) I, I think so. I don't know, I, I was just so thrown.
WILLOW: Well, Buffy, you have to talk to him again.
BUFFY: What? No. No, no, no, I have to avoid him again.
WILLOW: Not until you shut him down completely. If he thinks there's even a little chance with you, there's no telling what he'll do.
Buffy looks concerned.
With Anya, it was different. She asked Xander to take her to the prom. Xander didn't seem that concerned about her past. She looks so much like a student for him to care, and he was probably too desperate for a date to the prom. It was apparent he didn't want her as anything else at the moment. The reactions of his friends:
Oz: Anya, huh? Interesting choice.
Xander: Choice is kind of a broad term for my situation. See, it's either Anya or the sock puppet of love for this boy. (holds his right hand in puppet shape, speaks in silly voice) I love you, Xander. I'll never leave you.
Willow: Well, if Anya tries to get you killed, put me down for a big 'I told you so.'
Xander: (puppet) Who's this Anya? Is she prettier than me?
Willow: She just better not try to cross me. That's all I'm saying.
Buffy: Well, at least we all have someone to go with now. Some of us are going with demons, but I think that's a valid lifestyle choice. More importantly, I have the kick dress.
So of all of them, Willow seems the most concerned, mainly because of what had happened earlier between her and Anya. Oz is laid back as usual. Buffy just wants everyone to be happy because she is.
One of the main differences between Spike and Anya, the biggest, is that Xander accepted Anya. He wanted her to be his girlfriend, he acknowledged her as one, despite Willow's obvious dislike of Anya, he still kept dating her. He usually brought her to every Scooby meeting ever since they started sleeping together. He took her to Buffy's Thanksgiving gathering. He made her part of them, and while his friends didn't warm up to her, they accepted her presence because Xander liked her.
As for Spike, Buffy was ashamed of him. She didn't want him around her friends, she didn't even want to tell them about her relationship with him. Other than Xander, the rest of the Scoobies didn't mind Spike being around and Dawn liked him just fine. If Buffy had pushed Spike into the group – just like Xander did with Anya – the Scoobies will accept him, and like Willow was able to deal with Anya being around, Xander will eventually be able to deal with Spike being around (He dealt with his presence just fine in S7).
Spike would be a permanent Scooby member if Buffy just said the word. That will lead us to another important point:
The desire to become a Scooby
Did Spike really want to become a Scooby? He never seemed to exhibit any desire to fit in. While he was chipped and unsouled he always emphasized his vampireness and was antagonistic towards the Scoobies. He usually threatened to kill them once his chip stopped working. The only reason he teamed up with the Scoobies was for his own benefit. It was in exchange of money and blood, to survive.
His priorities did change after he fell in love with Buffy. When Buffy died, Spike seemed to be part of the group. He was joking with Giles, he fought side by side with Xander, he was there for Dawn… but once Buffy came back, he didn't seem to want to hang out with them anymore than they want to hang out with him. Even his affection to Dawn seemed to disappear once Buffy came back. Were all his contributions in the summer between S5 and S6 for the promise he gave to Buffy? Certainly he was more interested in Buffy the rest of S6. After he was souled, he was still more focused on Buffy, he didn't even make an effort to patch things up with Dawn.
On the other hand, Anya made some kind of effort to assimilate into the human world, and she tried to get along with the Scoobies. With time she did end up caring about their well-being. She showed a desire to become human, a desire to help the Scoobies with research, a desire to become one of them. Perhaps it was all for Xander's sake, and while she was tactless and unbearable at times, she was always eager to help and lend a hand. She was never sarcastic about it until S7, for obvious reasons.
Was It Entirely the Scoobies' Fault?
jgracio had said that the Scoobies were made to be naïve morons because they had quickly accepted Spike as one of them once he had gotten the chip. Let's see: While the Scoobies found it hard to warm up to Spike, Giles and Xander gave Spike a place to stay with free blood. Giles actually let him roam in his place without chains. Xander only chained him when he went to sleep. The decision to move out was clearly Spike's, no one kicked him out.
The Scoobies more often than not ask Spike for help and information later, in which he keeps reminding them that he's evil and that he doesn't like them and that he'd kill them one day when he finds a way to get rid of the chip. The Scoobies still trusted him and considered him on their side. Why would Giles keep blood in his fridge after Spike moved out if he didn't consider Spike one of them? Why would Willow stop Spike from committing suicide? Why would Xander put his life in danger of being hit by falling rocks to save Spike's life? In The Yoko Factor, when Spike planned to 'pretend to go back under disguise into the Initiative', Xander delivered him the clothes appropriate with the 'job'.
The Scoobies got burned for their naivety when Spike started working with Adam, and betrayed that forming trust they had for him.
Xander: Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done--nah, I can't even act surprised.
Funnily enough, later when Spike asks for forgiveness, Giles and Willow turn their eyes to Xander as if asking his permission to forgive Spike. Xander shrugs and lets him be.
The Scoobies' attitude toward Spike had always been neutral, even Xander and Giles, it was until Buffy told them that Spike is in love with her and appeared grossed by it that Giles and Xander started to be overprotective. Personally, if Buffy returned Spike's feelings by that time, I don't think the Scoobies would have minded having him around, and even Xander will eventually loosen up, he seemed to take it well when he thought that Buffy was sleeping with Spike in S5.
In Conclusion:
Spike would have easily become a Scooby if he made a better first impression, played nice with the Scoobies, had a soul, was accepted sooner by Buffy, and expressed a desire to become one of them. Anya was as rude as Spike, but she was never a threat. She was liked by Xander, she never tried to kill the Scoobies the way Spike did, she tried to fit in, and she was human.
All and all, I think if S7 was made into two seasons with more space for Scoobies/Spike development, I'm sure Spike would have become a Scooby. It's not just about the Scoobies accepting him, it's also about Spike's desire to be one of them.
Jul 02 2008 08:25 am #2Scarlet Ibis
Then at the Bronze, Anya appeared in new unpleasant colors in front of Willow. Of all the Scoobies, it's Willow who saw the bad in Anya, keep in mind what Willow saw was nowhere as bad as they first met Spike, but it was still enough to make Willow dislike Anya
What's funny about that is...Willow liked Spike much more than she liked Anya. I think the problem was that physically, Anya just seemed more human, thus making her more easily accepted into the group. Physical attributes aside (or, lack of demon powers anyway), she was worse.
Also, there's no gurantee that Anya even had a soul--destroying her power center meant exactly that--destroying her power. So either, she had her soul the entire time she was a vengeance demon (which I believe she did), or she loss the one she had by becoming a vengeance demon, and never regained it back after losing her powers. I mean by rules, to have no soul for so long and then to suddenly get it back, wouldn't Anya be crazy in a basement somewhere? Or rubbing rat filth on her face perhaps? She was exactly the same--and determined to get her mojo back. I think the Scoobies looked at the Anya thing all wrong--that's not to say that she shouldn't have been accepted though.
As for the Giles and Xander being neutral to Spike thing, well, Giles and Spike hung out during the summer of s4 and s5, so he couldn't have been all that neutral. If anything, Spike grew on both of them after having to be roomies for so long.
Good essay ;)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it :)
I think part of why Willow didn't like Anya was that she's so similar to Cordelia, both are rude and tactless. But mainly I think it's because Willow had personally interacted with Evil Anya, because ever since then, Willow grimaces at the sight of Anya.
I really think the Scoobies treatment of Spike was okay before Spike told Buffy he loved her. After seeing Buffy's reaction to that, everybody adopted Buffy's disgusted behavior.
This is really one of the best, most well thought out forum entries I've read here.
A+
A+
thanks for posting your essay - excellent piece -
"Spike would have easily become a Scooby if he made a better first impression, played nice with the Scoobies, had a soul, was accepted sooner by Buffy, and expressed a desire to become one of them"
All these, except perhaps the last "desire to become one of them" fits Angel/Angelus.
"Spike would have easily become a Scooby if he made a better first impression, played nice with the Scoobies, had a soul, was accepted sooner by Buffy, and expressed a desire to become one of them"
All these, except perhaps the last "desire to become one of them" fits Angel/Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Thank you!
All these, except perhaps the last "desire to become one of them" fits Angel/Angelus.
And that's why he mingled better with the Scoobies than Spike did.
All these, except perhaps the last "desire to become one of them" fits Angel/Angelus.
And that's why he mingled better with the Scoobies than Spike did.
Wow! Fantastic essay!! one that all fanfic-writers ought to keep in mind! There is far too much "good Spike-bad Scoobies" out there. You show the more balanced complexity of their relationship really well. I love it! Especially the part where you point out that they were actually almost naively welcoming towards him in S 4, untill he once again demonstrated how he couldnt be trusted.
Thank you :) Yeah, I dislike when a fic goes too Spike = good and Scoobies = bad. I think both have their good and bad sides and it's annoying to see a fic that goes black and white with the issue of Spike against Scoobies.
Jul 07 2008 01:49 am #10Spikez_tart
Good essay Sosa - I think Spike desperately wanted to be accepted by the Slayerettes, but he didn't want to put himself in the position of being turned down or laughed at, not to mention that he is still very attached to his Big Bad way of life and isn't sure he wants to give it up. Look at how majorly pissed he was when the gang brought Buffy back from the dead - (After Life)
SPIKE: You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me.
XANDER: Well, now you know.
SPIKE: I worked beside you all summer.
XANDER: We didn't tell you. It was just ... we didn't, okay?
Spike isn't just mad here that they took a chance on bringing Buffy back in pieces; he's upset that the gang didn't confide in him. Also, in S5, he shows up at the Scooby meetings time after time without being invited.
SPIKE: You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me.
XANDER: Well, now you know.
SPIKE: I worked beside you all summer.
XANDER: We didn't tell you. It was just ... we didn't, okay?
Spike isn't just mad here that they took a chance on bringing Buffy back in pieces; he's upset that the gang didn't confide in him. Also, in S5, he shows up at the Scooby meetings time after time without being invited.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I do believe that Spike wanted to fit in a little, especially after he fell for Buffy. I guess he never tried as hard as Anya did. He had expressed negative feelings about the Scoobies at times and it seemed that once Buffy was back, Spike was kicked out by choice and by the Scoobies. They never asked after him and he never asked after them.
Jul 07 2008 06:28 pm #12Scarlet Ibis
and it seemed that once Buffy was back, Spike was kicked out by choice and by the Scoobies.
Yeah, s6 was a tad misleading. He was more around then was shown--he's invited to Buffy's party, and Dawn asks him if he's not going to be coming around anymore in SR, implying that he was in fact around previously.
Yeah, s6 was a tad misleading. He was more around then was shown--he's invited to Buffy's party, and Dawn asks him if he's not going to be coming around anymore in SR, implying that he was in fact around previously.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Good point! Aww, how I would have loved to see him around in that season! I wonder what went down. Continuation of his friendship with Dawn? That was IMO the great missing piece of that season. It sucks that it was not shown on screen.
As to the party (OaFA, I suppose?) he wasnt exactly invited. He more like, invited himself, and Clem with him :lol: But noone questioned his right to do so.
Same goes with Xander and Anya's wedding :) But it can be said that Anya invited him. I don't think the Scoobies really disliked Spike, even Xander... when Xander found Spike in Buffy's kitchen in Gone, he didn't seem like he wanted to throw him out, same as Buffy's birthday party... I guess it was mostly that Xander didn't like the idea of Buffy hooking up with him, because Buffy deserved someone better.
Jul 09 2008 09:11 pm #15Scarlet Ibis
I guess it was mostly that Xander didn't like the idea of Buffy hooking up with him, because Buffy deserved someone better.
I don't think it ever occurred to Xander that Buffy would hook up with Spike (even though it was right in front of his "Xander face" oh so many times). But no, I don't think he was isolated or on the outside. Invited or not to certain events (though I believe he was formally invited to those events--birthday parties and the wedding), they didn't care if he popped up or not when he wanted. Like in "Tabula Rasa." They were shocked by what he was wearing, not by the fact that he was there. He'd been accepted into the Scooby bosom after Glory (before Buffy died). After Buffy put her foot down about him staying, and after his and Xander's little spat following Buffy's catatonic breakdown, things were, well, fine immediately after (I'm talking specifically with Giles, Xander and Spike). The hostility was gone. They saw that Spike was helping, and genuinely wanted to help, and everything else seemed to have been swept under the carpet. When I think of all of this now and certain parts of s6, I think it's remiss of us to think that just because Spike and Buffy's interactions were f-ed up, doens't mean that he was some kind of leper with the Scoobies as well. Everything was pretty much the same (cept for after AYW--things probably went downhill between Spike and the Scoobies then, since he was being all "evil." Pfft.) after he and Buffy started seeing each other, I think, and those key instances back it up. No one was all, "Why is Spike here?" It was more like, "what is Spike wearing?" Or "who is Spike with?" etc. The black sheep of the psuedo family sure, but not unwanted.
*steps off soap box, though stepping on it was inadvertent anyway*
I don't think it ever occurred to Xander that Buffy would hook up with Spike (even though it was right in front of his "Xander face" oh so many times). But no, I don't think he was isolated or on the outside. Invited or not to certain events (though I believe he was formally invited to those events--birthday parties and the wedding), they didn't care if he popped up or not when he wanted. Like in "Tabula Rasa." They were shocked by what he was wearing, not by the fact that he was there. He'd been accepted into the Scooby bosom after Glory (before Buffy died). After Buffy put her foot down about him staying, and after his and Xander's little spat following Buffy's catatonic breakdown, things were, well, fine immediately after (I'm talking specifically with Giles, Xander and Spike). The hostility was gone. They saw that Spike was helping, and genuinely wanted to help, and everything else seemed to have been swept under the carpet. When I think of all of this now and certain parts of s6, I think it's remiss of us to think that just because Spike and Buffy's interactions were f-ed up, doens't mean that he was some kind of leper with the Scoobies as well. Everything was pretty much the same (cept for after AYW--things probably went downhill between Spike and the Scoobies then, since he was being all "evil." Pfft.) after he and Buffy started seeing each other, I think, and those key instances back it up. No one was all, "Why is Spike here?" It was more like, "what is Spike wearing?" Or "who is Spike with?" etc. The black sheep of the psuedo family sure, but not unwanted.
*steps off soap box, though stepping on it was inadvertent anyway*
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oh, I never doubted Xander's blindness to Buffy's feelings toward Spike, it was the reason he was beyond shocked when he learned that Buffy was sleeping with Spike. What I was talking about was Spike's feelings for Buffy. There were times he taunted Spike that he could never have Buffy because Buffy would never feel that way about him, and there was a time Xander compared Spike's love for Buffy with Xander's love for Buffy in high school years (Normal Again) and expressed his sympathy toward Spike, like he did in Intervention.
I think if there'd ever be a fic about Xander and Spike's bonding before Once More with Feeling, it'll be about how they loved Buffy and she never returned their love.
I think if there'd ever be a fic about Xander and Spike's bonding before Once More with Feeling, it'll be about how they loved Buffy and she never returned their love.
Jul 11 2008 03:38 am #17Guest
Guest
I don't think Spike was invited to Buffy's S6 birthday party - Buffy says he doesn't play well with others. He crashes the party, and brings Clem. Everyone, including Buffy, accepts his presence.
And, isn't it interesting that Mr. I see and understand everything, Xander, doesn't have a clue that Buffy is sleeping with Spike. In spite of seeing Spike's hand on her butt or where ever that hand was when Xander catches them in the kitchen.
And, isn't it interesting that Mr. I see and understand everything, Xander, doesn't have a clue that Buffy is sleeping with Spike. In spite of seeing Spike's hand on her butt or where ever that hand was when Xander catches them in the kitchen.
Jul 11 2008 03:38 am #18Guest
Guest
I don't think Spike was invited to Buffy's S6 birthday party - Buffy says he doesn't play well with others. He crashes the party, and brings Clem. Everyone, including Buffy, accepts his presence.
And, isn't it interesting that Mr. I see and understand everything, Xander, doesn't have a clue that Buffy is sleeping with Spike. In spite of seeing Spike's hand on her butt or where ever that hand was when Xander catches them in the kitchen.
And, isn't it interesting that Mr. I see and understand everything, Xander, doesn't have a clue that Buffy is sleeping with Spike. In spite of seeing Spike's hand on her butt or where ever that hand was when Xander catches them in the kitchen.
Jul 11 2008 03:41 am #19Spikez_tart
Sorry that was me with the double posts and the no sign in and it has been a long long day.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
When it comes to Buffy and Spike, Xander has always been in denial, when it comes to Buffy's feelings, of course. He'd never see her "stooping that low", but I think if Buffy had told her friends earlier about her and Spike, Xander would have taken it like he did in Intervention. Sadly, we he found out about them he was going through a tough one: leaving Anya at the altar, Anya rejecting his idea of dating, Anya avoiding him, Anya sleeping with Spike, and Xander was heavily drinking.... depression didn't help him at all to deal well with this. Unlike S5 Xander, who's got a job, an apartment and a lovely girlfriend, that Xander was able to handle it better.
Apr 08 2009 04:57 pm #21spikes_wish
Also, there's no gurantee that Anya even had a soul
She had a soul as a vengeance demon (see "Selfless", when D'Hoffrynn kills Halfrek). The destruction of the pendant is only said to destroy her powers, so the soul would still be there. It also explains why she doesn't feel guilt over her past crimes- she was ensouled at the time, anf fully believed she was doing the right thing. The difference between then and becoming a demon again, and not enjoying it seems connected to her relationships. When she was human the first time around she was shunned by everyone, and had no friends except for Olaf who betrayed her.
She had a soul as a vengeance demon (see "Selfless", when D'Hoffrynn kills Halfrek). The destruction of the pendant is only said to destroy her powers, so the soul would still be there. It also explains why she doesn't feel guilt over her past crimes- she was ensouled at the time, anf fully believed she was doing the right thing. The difference between then and becoming a demon again, and not enjoying it seems connected to her relationships. When she was human the first time around she was shunned by everyone, and had no friends except for Olaf who betrayed her.
Apr 08 2009 06:34 pm #22Scarlet Ibis
She had a soul as a vengeance demon (see "Selfless", when D'Hoffrynn kills Halfrek). The destruction of the pendant is only said to destroy her powers, so the soul would still be there.
Yeah, that's what I said shortly after that statement...And I was referencing her human soul.
Yeah, that's what I said shortly after that statement...And I was referencing her human soul.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 08 2009 07:04 pm #23spikes_wish
I did look to see if anyone had mentioned it but I must have missd it somehow! And I assumed that her soul would be the same whether human or demon? I thought she was only elevated with her soul intact and when she lost her powers her soul pretty much stayed the same?
Or did I miss something?
Or did I miss something?
Apr 08 2009 08:08 pm #24Spikez_tart
Does the gang ever find out about Anya's granting Cordelia's wish? At the time they're returned back to the regular Sunnydale of the show, they haven't noticed anything. And, at what point do they find out that Anya was once a vengeance demon? They know Spike is the Big Bad right away, but maybe they know Anya as a regular high school student before they find out about her wicked past.
When Spike comes back with his soul, Anya notices right away and asks him how he got it, so maybe she lost her soul when she was a demon and gained it back when she was human. These souls are so slippery!
When Spike comes back with his soul, Anya notices right away and asks him how he got it, so maybe she lost her soul when she was a demon and gained it back when she was human. These souls are so slippery!
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 08 2009 08:26 pm #25spikes_wish
When Spike comes back with his soul, Anya notices right away and asks him how he got it, so maybe she lost her soul when she was a demon and gained it back when she was human. These souls are so slippery!
Clearly Anya has some sort of demon ESP- Doc sensed his lack of soul in The Gift. But Vengeance Demons have souls- when Anya wants to reverse her wish in Selfless, D'Hoffrynsays it requires the "life and soul of a vengeance demon".
Clearly Anya has some sort of demon ESP- Doc sensed his lack of soul in The Gift. But Vengeance Demons have souls- when Anya wants to reverse her wish in Selfless, D'Hoffrynsays it requires the "life and soul of a vengeance demon".
And I assumed that her soul would be the same whether human or demon? I thought she was only elevated with her soul intact and when she lost her powers her soul pretty much stayed the same?
It's never really made clear. It's possible that her human soul leaves and a demon soul takes over (similar to what happens when a person gets vamped), but there's no real indication of that.
Personally, I think her soul remains the same. D'Hoffryn doesn't choose just anyone to be a vengeance demon - Anya (or Aud, rather) impressed him with her act of vengeance as a human, and that's why he invited her to come work for him. I think that's deliberate on his part - he chooses people who have a thirst for vengeance so that, unlike a vampire, they don't need to lose their souls to become evil; they already have the desire in them to cause pain and destruction. Also, I think it's telling that Anya never felt guilty about her centuries of vengeance - becoming human didn't work the same way as a vampire getting a soul. But she did feel guilty in "Selfless," as a demon. I think she had the same soul all along, but being human for a while killed her desire for vengeance, thus it didn't work out for her the second time she became a vengeance demon.
Does the gang ever find out about Anya's granting Cordelia's wish? At the time they're returned back to the regular Sunnydale of the show, they haven't noticed anything. And, at what point do they find out that Anya was once a vengeance demon?
I don't think they know about Cordelia's wish, unless Anya explained the whole deal when vamp!Willow shows up in "Doppelgangland." We don't see it, but at some point she does tell them she's a vengeance demon, because Giles tells her "don't try any tricks now" when they're sending vamp!Willow home, and the next time he sees her, Xander greets her as "demon Anya, punisher of evil males."
It's never really made clear. It's possible that her human soul leaves and a demon soul takes over (similar to what happens when a person gets vamped), but there's no real indication of that.
Personally, I think her soul remains the same. D'Hoffryn doesn't choose just anyone to be a vengeance demon - Anya (or Aud, rather) impressed him with her act of vengeance as a human, and that's why he invited her to come work for him. I think that's deliberate on his part - he chooses people who have a thirst for vengeance so that, unlike a vampire, they don't need to lose their souls to become evil; they already have the desire in them to cause pain and destruction. Also, I think it's telling that Anya never felt guilty about her centuries of vengeance - becoming human didn't work the same way as a vampire getting a soul. But she did feel guilty in "Selfless," as a demon. I think she had the same soul all along, but being human for a while killed her desire for vengeance, thus it didn't work out for her the second time she became a vengeance demon.
Does the gang ever find out about Anya's granting Cordelia's wish? At the time they're returned back to the regular Sunnydale of the show, they haven't noticed anything. And, at what point do they find out that Anya was once a vengeance demon?
I don't think they know about Cordelia's wish, unless Anya explained the whole deal when vamp!Willow shows up in "Doppelgangland." We don't see it, but at some point she does tell them she's a vengeance demon, because Giles tells her "don't try any tricks now" when they're sending vamp!Willow home, and the next time he sees her, Xander greets her as "demon Anya, punisher of evil males."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 09 2009 01:21 am #27spikes_wish
Personally, I think her soul remains the same
I agree- if she'd been replaced with a demonic soul the killing people in season 7 probably wouldn't have bothered her. I think the reason it does in S7 compared to pre S3 is because she's made friends, and fallen in love. In "Selfless" it's made clear that she has no ties but Olaf, who betrays her. She finds it difficult t empathise with anyone for this reason, but post Hells Bells, she's made ties, and understands the consequences of death (The Body), so her soul is affected by killing people in a way it wasn't before.
As far as canonis concerened, the destruction of her amulet, and therefore her rein as a demon only takes back her powers. There is no mention of a soul changing or evolvin/devolving in anyway, and as we find out she had one as a demon later, it isn't really fanwanking to assume that it was the same one all along.
I agree- if she'd been replaced with a demonic soul the killing people in season 7 probably wouldn't have bothered her. I think the reason it does in S7 compared to pre S3 is because she's made friends, and fallen in love. In "Selfless" it's made clear that she has no ties but Olaf, who betrays her. She finds it difficult t empathise with anyone for this reason, but post Hells Bells, she's made ties, and understands the consequences of death (The Body), so her soul is affected by killing people in a way it wasn't before.
As far as canonis concerened, the destruction of her amulet, and therefore her rein as a demon only takes back her powers. There is no mention of a soul changing or evolvin/devolving in anyway, and as we find out she had one as a demon later, it isn't really fanwanking to assume that it was the same one all along.
Apr 11 2009 09:14 am #28Shell Presto
I really enjoyed that essay! It was well thought out and had many convincing points.
And although I agree that Spike did not show as much interest in becoming a Scooby, I'd like to throw in my two cents on why. I think it really boils down to pride. As an evil vampire, Spike was one of the best and had a huge reputation. But the fact is, even if Spike was fighting on the side of good, he's only a vampire.
Compared to a Slayer, who's stronger than him, and Willow, who's insanely powerful, he can't be the best anymore. Add to that the fact that it's much easier to be destructive -- killing people is easy, saving lots of people is very, very hard. He didn't need to research how to kill people when he was evil, but to save the world he'd have to read up on the villains and find weaknesses, then concoct ways to thwart them. As an evil vamp, he was a self-contained killing machine, as a good guy, he needs to be part of a team to function. Spike would be stuck being a follower, just a Scooby. As much as he loves Buffy, I think he doesn't want to fall in with the rest of the Scoobies because he wants very much to be her equal, but knows he can't be.
Likewise, I don't think his leaving the group abruptly after buffy's return is a commentary on his not wanting to be a part of the group or just honoring his promise. Yes, Spike made a promise and that was a big part of it, but just like he was thrilled to know Buffy needed him on the team at the end of season 5, he had to have seen the Scoobies definitive need for him after Buffy left. He wasn't following anyone at that point. Yes, he didn't have the brains or the magic, but he was the strongest. He had a top tier on the team, and although in an emotional sense Buffy was irreplacable, he literally was replacing Buffy, the highest position in the team, as she was always the muscle.
When she came back, he was no longer the best muscle for the job, and so he went back to his periphery role instead of lowering himself on the team totem. So very much so another pride issue.
And although I agree that Spike did not show as much interest in becoming a Scooby, I'd like to throw in my two cents on why. I think it really boils down to pride. As an evil vampire, Spike was one of the best and had a huge reputation. But the fact is, even if Spike was fighting on the side of good, he's only a vampire.
Compared to a Slayer, who's stronger than him, and Willow, who's insanely powerful, he can't be the best anymore. Add to that the fact that it's much easier to be destructive -- killing people is easy, saving lots of people is very, very hard. He didn't need to research how to kill people when he was evil, but to save the world he'd have to read up on the villains and find weaknesses, then concoct ways to thwart them. As an evil vamp, he was a self-contained killing machine, as a good guy, he needs to be part of a team to function. Spike would be stuck being a follower, just a Scooby. As much as he loves Buffy, I think he doesn't want to fall in with the rest of the Scoobies because he wants very much to be her equal, but knows he can't be.
Likewise, I don't think his leaving the group abruptly after buffy's return is a commentary on his not wanting to be a part of the group or just honoring his promise. Yes, Spike made a promise and that was a big part of it, but just like he was thrilled to know Buffy needed him on the team at the end of season 5, he had to have seen the Scoobies definitive need for him after Buffy left. He wasn't following anyone at that point. Yes, he didn't have the brains or the magic, but he was the strongest. He had a top tier on the team, and although in an emotional sense Buffy was irreplacable, he literally was replacing Buffy, the highest position in the team, as she was always the muscle.
When she came back, he was no longer the best muscle for the job, and so he went back to his periphery role instead of lowering himself on the team totem. So very much so another pride issue.
If you are under the age of 17, please use your head and do not read fics that are labeled "NC-17". Parents, I cannot control what your children are reading, so please be advised that the majority of the fics archived here are NOT suitable for those under the age of 17.
I do not own Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I am in no way making any profit from this site. This is for pure entertainment purposes only.
Concept: (c)bringonthebloodshed.com (2004), Code & Design: (c)Diabola (2006), Graphics: Selene & Always