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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Rewatching Doublemeat Palace and Older and Far Away
Doublemeat Palace:
- I forgot how cute James M is. He's far more goodlooking with yellow hair than brown.
- Willow and Halfrek both made attempts to scare Xander and Anya off the wedding. Willow pointedly telling Xander that he'll listen to Anya's theories about money for the rest of his life while Halfrek telling Anya that Xander tends to correct her "not-so-human" behavior constantly.
- I liked the Scoobies' approach to support Buffy on her first day at her job better than Spike's "You're better than this." Buffy needs money and she needs to suck it up and work in whatever place available. Good thing Doublemeat Palace let her in, because it seems like a long time between this episode and Flooded and Buffy was just accepted in a job. Hold on to it as much as you can, then. The last thing Buffy needs right now is someone telling her that she has more potential than this and she has to quit because she's not happy. That's life, it's not about being happy, it's about sucking it up and surviving in an adult world. People start small and then end up big, just look at Xander.
- Why the hell would Dawn make Amy come inside and meet Willow after all what had happened?
- Amy is probably paying back Willow for not returning her back to normal sooner. Amy, dear, be grateful that Willow at least took care of you these couple of years. It's not her fault you turned yourself into a rat.
Older and Far Away:
- Doesn't Dawn have friends her age? I tried feeling bad for her in this episode but why are you down on Buffy's friends? They're "Buffy's" friends, not "Dawn's" friends. 15 year old girls should hang out with 15 year old girls. I know Dawn considers them family, and they surely are, but they have more important adult things to do that baby-sit 15 year old girls.
- For all the talk I hear about Xander's ill treatment of Anya he certainly comes out like the 'perfect boyfriend' in this episode. This episode shows clearly how much Xander loves Anya, he even sided with her against Willow.
- Anya seems stronger than both Buffy and Spike in this episode, those punches she gave that demon.
- Spike crashed the party uninvited and brought a guest with him. What I find interesting is that none of the other cast seemed to mind, not even Xander. In fact, Xander was playing cards with Spike, Clem and Tara. Hmmm.
- Fans often wondered why no one commented on Spike's bruises. I think it's easy to assume that he got them from a demon fight or something. It'll probably make sense if Dawn asked Spike about it, but I guess she was too busy being happy that she's surrounded by people.
- Tara joking with Spike about his cramp seemed to be on Buffy's behalf than on a newfound friendship between them. But it's not hard to imagine these two becoming friends in the future.
- I forgot how cute James M is. He's far more goodlooking with yellow hair than brown.
- Willow and Halfrek both made attempts to scare Xander and Anya off the wedding. Willow pointedly telling Xander that he'll listen to Anya's theories about money for the rest of his life while Halfrek telling Anya that Xander tends to correct her "not-so-human" behavior constantly.
- I liked the Scoobies' approach to support Buffy on her first day at her job better than Spike's "You're better than this." Buffy needs money and she needs to suck it up and work in whatever place available. Good thing Doublemeat Palace let her in, because it seems like a long time between this episode and Flooded and Buffy was just accepted in a job. Hold on to it as much as you can, then. The last thing Buffy needs right now is someone telling her that she has more potential than this and she has to quit because she's not happy. That's life, it's not about being happy, it's about sucking it up and surviving in an adult world. People start small and then end up big, just look at Xander.
- Why the hell would Dawn make Amy come inside and meet Willow after all what had happened?
- Amy is probably paying back Willow for not returning her back to normal sooner. Amy, dear, be grateful that Willow at least took care of you these couple of years. It's not her fault you turned yourself into a rat.
Older and Far Away:
- Doesn't Dawn have friends her age? I tried feeling bad for her in this episode but why are you down on Buffy's friends? They're "Buffy's" friends, not "Dawn's" friends. 15 year old girls should hang out with 15 year old girls. I know Dawn considers them family, and they surely are, but they have more important adult things to do that baby-sit 15 year old girls.
- For all the talk I hear about Xander's ill treatment of Anya he certainly comes out like the 'perfect boyfriend' in this episode. This episode shows clearly how much Xander loves Anya, he even sided with her against Willow.
- Anya seems stronger than both Buffy and Spike in this episode, those punches she gave that demon.
- Spike crashed the party uninvited and brought a guest with him. What I find interesting is that none of the other cast seemed to mind, not even Xander. In fact, Xander was playing cards with Spike, Clem and Tara. Hmmm.
- Fans often wondered why no one commented on Spike's bruises. I think it's easy to assume that he got them from a demon fight or something. It'll probably make sense if Dawn asked Spike about it, but I guess she was too busy being happy that she's surrounded by people.
- Tara joking with Spike about his cramp seemed to be on Buffy's behalf than on a newfound friendship between them. But it's not hard to imagine these two becoming friends in the future.
Jul 17 2008 04:01 pm #2Scarlet Ibis
I liked the Scoobies' approach to support Buffy on her first day at her job better than Spike's "You're better than this." Buffy needs money and she needs to suck it up and work in whatever place available. Good thing Doublemeat Palace let her in, because it seems like a long time between this episode and Flooded and Buffy was just accepted in a job. Hold on to it as much as you can, then. The last thing Buffy needs right now is someone telling her that she has more potential than this and she has to quit because she's not happy. That's life, it's not about being happy, it's about sucking it up and surviving in an adult world. People start small and then end up big, just look at Xander.
If I recall correctly, they looked...a bit put off by her uniform (when she first showed it to them in the house). But the thing is, we don't see her trying to get any other kind of job. Why not the police force? She'd pass the physical tests with flying colors. Or teaching a self defense class? It was as if she was saying, "This is the best I can do," and if that is the best you can do, fine. But she didn't try anything else, which was strange.
ETA: A defeatist attitude is not attractive. Therefore, I agree with Spike.
- Spike crashed the party uninvited and brought a guest with him. What I find interesting is that none of the other cast seemed to mind, not even Xander. In fact, Xander was playing cards with Spike, Clem and Tara. Hmmm.
There's no evidence to show that he crashed the party. In fact, everyone's lack of reaction to his presence (minus Buffy's) shows otherwise--that he was in fact invited, or at least expected to be there. Willow mentioned it, according to him. I don't see Willow being all, "Hey, we're having a party for Buffy. By the way, you aren't invited." Maybe Xander, lol, but not Willow. Besides, everyone brought a guest. Cept for Dawn, Tara and Willow.
Glad you started the thread--been awhile sense we had an ep one.
If I recall correctly, they looked...a bit put off by her uniform (when she first showed it to them in the house). But the thing is, we don't see her trying to get any other kind of job. Why not the police force? She'd pass the physical tests with flying colors. Or teaching a self defense class? It was as if she was saying, "This is the best I can do," and if that is the best you can do, fine. But she didn't try anything else, which was strange.
ETA: A defeatist attitude is not attractive. Therefore, I agree with Spike.
- Spike crashed the party uninvited and brought a guest with him. What I find interesting is that none of the other cast seemed to mind, not even Xander. In fact, Xander was playing cards with Spike, Clem and Tara. Hmmm.
There's no evidence to show that he crashed the party. In fact, everyone's lack of reaction to his presence (minus Buffy's) shows otherwise--that he was in fact invited, or at least expected to be there. Willow mentioned it, according to him. I don't see Willow being all, "Hey, we're having a party for Buffy. By the way, you aren't invited." Maybe Xander, lol, but not Willow. Besides, everyone brought a guest. Cept for Dawn, Tara and Willow.
Glad you started the thread--been awhile sense we had an ep one.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 17 2008 05:22 pm #3Guest
Guest
I totally agree with the idea that Spike was speaking a truth to Buffy - she could easily have gotten a different and much better job - a job as a defense instructor or even at any gym with aerobics workout -
There is nothing worse for the human spirit and joy of life than going to the "dead end" job every bloody day - there is a reason why we say "dead end." Spike, like your real life friends will always give you advice and support that will help you get along in life - and settling for the Double Meat Palace and that Cow Hat, IMO, was more about Buffy's mental state than money. Real Life will chew you up and spit you out if you don't fight against it.
You know what Buffy's friends could have done to show her support and love - give the financial support by paying for living at her home, buying food that they all eat, etc. etc. - We don't know what the financial status of Tara or Willow are but if they were at one time paying for dorms - they must have had some money to help out by paying rent. It certainly would not have solved Buffy's financial problems, but it might have given her the option of time.
Not saying that Buffy's life, like real life is, or should be, all about "being happy and spiritually and emotionally fulfilled," - LIFE DOES make demands but "settling for less than better" is not what she had to do.
It was nice to see The Scoobies come out to say "how's it going and good luck" - but they don't have to be there everyday or night like she will have to. Xander was great with getting her that job in construction and she tried The Magic Box - both jobs were total failures and DMP is her accepting those failed attempts and using them to help bring on her downward spiral. I wish I could remember the episode where Buffy gives her self-described "failure Buffy." why, IMO, she does work at the DMP.
There is nothing worse for the human spirit and joy of life than going to the "dead end" job every bloody day - there is a reason why we say "dead end." Spike, like your real life friends will always give you advice and support that will help you get along in life - and settling for the Double Meat Palace and that Cow Hat, IMO, was more about Buffy's mental state than money. Real Life will chew you up and spit you out if you don't fight against it.
You know what Buffy's friends could have done to show her support and love - give the financial support by paying for living at her home, buying food that they all eat, etc. etc. - We don't know what the financial status of Tara or Willow are but if they were at one time paying for dorms - they must have had some money to help out by paying rent. It certainly would not have solved Buffy's financial problems, but it might have given her the option of time.
Not saying that Buffy's life, like real life is, or should be, all about "being happy and spiritually and emotionally fulfilled," - LIFE DOES make demands but "settling for less than better" is not what she had to do.
It was nice to see The Scoobies come out to say "how's it going and good luck" - but they don't have to be there everyday or night like she will have to. Xander was great with getting her that job in construction and she tried The Magic Box - both jobs were total failures and DMP is her accepting those failed attempts and using them to help bring on her downward spiral. I wish I could remember the episode where Buffy gives her self-described "failure Buffy." why, IMO, she does work at the DMP.
Jul 17 2008 05:24 pm #4Guest
Guest
Guest from above post should read nmcil - for some reason the site does not have me logged in - Can anyone tell me why the site sometimes goes on auto mode and uses different skins?
While this scene is comedy, like all excellent comedy, it gives voice to the dark and tragic underneath layers -
From "Life Serial"
SPIKE: What's wrong, luv?
BUFFY: (struggling with her jacket) What's wrong?! You were gonna help me! You, you were gonna beat heads and, and, and fix my life! But you're completely lame! Tonight sucks! And, and look at me! Look at, look at stupid Buffy! Too dumb for college, and, and, and freak Buffy, too strong for construction work. And, and my job at the magic shop? I was bored to tears even *before* the hour that wouldn't end! And the only person I can even stand to be around is a ... neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker.
SPIKE: (embarrassed) Oh, you saw the cheating, did you.
BUFFY: Also? I think you're drunk.
From "Life Serial"
SPIKE: What's wrong, luv?
BUFFY: (struggling with her jacket) What's wrong?! You were gonna help me! You, you were gonna beat heads and, and, and fix my life! But you're completely lame! Tonight sucks! And, and look at me! Look at, look at stupid Buffy! Too dumb for college, and, and, and freak Buffy, too strong for construction work. And, and my job at the magic shop? I was bored to tears even *before* the hour that wouldn't end! And the only person I can even stand to be around is a ... neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker.
SPIKE: (embarrassed) Oh, you saw the cheating, did you.
BUFFY: Also? I think you're drunk.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
But the thing is, we don't see her trying to get any other kind of job.
That's not true. We see her try both construction work and the Magic Box in "Life Serial." And there's a big gap between those two episodes - I doubt that she was just sitting around twiddling her thumbs for six episodes while the bills piled up. Maybe she didn't apply for the jobs that you think she should have, but you can't say she didn't try anything else. I think she did pick fast food because she thought she couldn't do anything else - after trying other things and meeting with failure. The quote that nmcil posted demonstrates really well how frustrated Buffy is with her failure, and it's obvious that the whole thing has gotten her down, given that she's out getting drunk with Spike.
I think hearing "You're better than this" from Spike came off like a slap in the face. Here's a guy who hasn't had a proper job in over a hundred years, telling what she should be doing with her life. Telling her that she should be doing something better when she's already faced rejection from "better" jobs. At least her friends didn't make her feel like crap for only being successful enough to manage a fast food job.
That's not true. We see her try both construction work and the Magic Box in "Life Serial." And there's a big gap between those two episodes - I doubt that she was just sitting around twiddling her thumbs for six episodes while the bills piled up. Maybe she didn't apply for the jobs that you think she should have, but you can't say she didn't try anything else. I think she did pick fast food because she thought she couldn't do anything else - after trying other things and meeting with failure. The quote that nmcil posted demonstrates really well how frustrated Buffy is with her failure, and it's obvious that the whole thing has gotten her down, given that she's out getting drunk with Spike.
I think hearing "You're better than this" from Spike came off like a slap in the face. Here's a guy who hasn't had a proper job in over a hundred years, telling what she should be doing with her life. Telling her that she should be doing something better when she's already faced rejection from "better" jobs. At least her friends didn't make her feel like crap for only being successful enough to manage a fast food job.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 17 2008 10:28 pm #7goldenusagi
That's an interesting point about Dawn and friends. In Older and Far Away, everyone is caught up in their own things, and too busy for Dawn. I guess she doesn't have any friends? We hear her talk about Janice (I think we see her in All the Way?), but Dawn was more or less just inserted into the Scooby gang. Throughout season 5, we don't see much of her as anything other than Buffy's sister and the Key. Later we get some 'outside of the Scoobies' Dawn in All the Way, Him, and Potential. And those two people she met in Lessons and walked around the basement with, who were promptly never heard from again (and thankfully, I'm glad they weren't). Hmm. So, I wish that Dawn had her own friends, and she doesn't seem to be awkward or a loner, so there's really no reason why she shouldn't have more friends. But I also recognize that Instant Little Sister + the friends she obviously would have, would be too much for force on the audience. But we wouldn't have to see them hanging out with her all the time. But a few lines here or there to let us know she has friends would have been nice. They probably just didn't have anything to do with her in season 6, other than make her klepto, clingy, and "Look at me! Look at me!" And now I'm rambling, so I'm going to stop.
Jul 17 2008 10:47 pm #8Scarlet Ibis
We see her try both construction work and the Magic Box in "Life Serial."
That's not exactly a fair try at work. That happened within the span of a week (at most), and she learns later that the reason she "failed" at those jobs was because something was playing games with her, so really, they weren't fair shots at working other jobs. As for hearing "You're better than this" being a slap in the face, well, I'm not sure how encouragement can be misconstrued as such. In fact, it was that mentality that was initially stopping one of her best friends, Xander from using all of his potential. If he hadn't been split in two halves, seeing that he did have it within himself to be better, I seriously doubt he would have believed in himself enough to not only get the job promotion, but move out of his parent's basement as soon as he did. Sometimes, people do need that kick in the pants in order to rid themselves of their "glass is half empty" view on life.
ETA: As for her friends not making her feel worse or whatever, when Buffy tells Xander that there were in fact demons, and all she did was save his crew members, he gives her the brush off. As if she would have made something like that up...
Hmm. So, I wish that Dawn had her own friends, and she doesn't seem to be awkward or a loner, so there's really no reason why she shouldn't have more friends.
Dawn always seemed the type to have at least one friend. In season five, we see one (the girl in the bathroom with her in "The Body" ), and then we learn that she isn't Ms. Popularity (I assume, even before her cutting rumors circulated), and then we hear about another when she tries to go to someone's for dinner, but is stopped by Buffy (because of Glory) earlier that season. I think that Dawn just had abandonment issues all around, not to mention her general daddy ones. She only seemed more like the "annoying, teenaged bratty sister" because of the spell that trapped them all in a house. She finally gets them altogether, getting what she wants, and the first thing they do is to attempt to find ways to break out and therefore, away from ehr. If they hadn't been trapped, no one would have realized how desperate for attention Dawn was, or at the very least, for a long while. She kind of bottled that all up until the birthday party. She probably needed counseling, now that I think about it...
That's not exactly a fair try at work. That happened within the span of a week (at most), and she learns later that the reason she "failed" at those jobs was because something was playing games with her, so really, they weren't fair shots at working other jobs. As for hearing "You're better than this" being a slap in the face, well, I'm not sure how encouragement can be misconstrued as such. In fact, it was that mentality that was initially stopping one of her best friends, Xander from using all of his potential. If he hadn't been split in two halves, seeing that he did have it within himself to be better, I seriously doubt he would have believed in himself enough to not only get the job promotion, but move out of his parent's basement as soon as he did. Sometimes, people do need that kick in the pants in order to rid themselves of their "glass is half empty" view on life.
ETA: As for her friends not making her feel worse or whatever, when Buffy tells Xander that there were in fact demons, and all she did was save his crew members, he gives her the brush off. As if she would have made something like that up...
Hmm. So, I wish that Dawn had her own friends, and she doesn't seem to be awkward or a loner, so there's really no reason why she shouldn't have more friends.
Dawn always seemed the type to have at least one friend. In season five, we see one (the girl in the bathroom with her in "The Body" ), and then we learn that she isn't Ms. Popularity (I assume, even before her cutting rumors circulated), and then we hear about another when she tries to go to someone's for dinner, but is stopped by Buffy (because of Glory) earlier that season. I think that Dawn just had abandonment issues all around, not to mention her general daddy ones. She only seemed more like the "annoying, teenaged bratty sister" because of the spell that trapped them all in a house. She finally gets them altogether, getting what she wants, and the first thing they do is to attempt to find ways to break out and therefore, away from ehr. If they hadn't been trapped, no one would have realized how desperate for attention Dawn was, or at the very least, for a long while. She kind of bottled that all up until the birthday party. She probably needed counseling, now that I think about it...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 17 2008 10:48 pm #9slaymesoftly
Moderator
I'm going to agree with Eowyn (surprise!) and then disagree... Buffy did try some other jobs, so we can't say that she didn't. The think about fast food work is that they are always hiring, there are all sorts of hours to choose from (if you get a choice), so there's some flexibility which could be useful for a slayer. Yes, it's a lame place and made to seem even more so by the other workers, but it is a job.
However, I never saw what Spike had to say as being hard on Buffy. Now, maybe she didn't take it this way, but I saw him as outraged on her behalf. Furious that the Chosen One had to work for a living -and in a menial job; furious that the woman he loved wouldn't accept help from him, and heartsick at seeing her so depressed, worn out and discouraged. "You're better than this" seemed to me his way of coping with his inability to help her out. It sounded to me like a plea for her to let him help and take care of her. Not saying he knew how, exactly (hello, demon eggs!), but his instincts were to rescue her and he was frustrated that he couldn't.
I loved Older and Far Away, because everyone was so accepting of Spike's presence. He really kind of seemed like a Scooby that night. Buffy even flirted with him when no one was looking. It was a nice respite from the angst and ugliness. (Not so nice for Richard, I guess, but hey!)
However, I never saw what Spike had to say as being hard on Buffy. Now, maybe she didn't take it this way, but I saw him as outraged on her behalf. Furious that the Chosen One had to work for a living -and in a menial job; furious that the woman he loved wouldn't accept help from him, and heartsick at seeing her so depressed, worn out and discouraged. "You're better than this" seemed to me his way of coping with his inability to help her out. It sounded to me like a plea for her to let him help and take care of her. Not saying he knew how, exactly (hello, demon eggs!), but his instincts were to rescue her and he was frustrated that he couldn't.
I loved Older and Far Away, because everyone was so accepting of Spike's presence. He really kind of seemed like a Scooby that night. Buffy even flirted with him when no one was looking. It was a nice respite from the angst and ugliness. (Not so nice for Richard, I guess, but hey!)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
Yeah, I don't think Spike intended it as a slap in the face, but it's still a pretty backhanded compliment. He may be saying Buffy is better than that, but he's also criticizing the only job she did manage to get. If he wants to be so helpful, why doesn't he have any suggestions about what else she could do? He seems to just expect her to walk out of there and ignore the fact that she has bills to pay, when she clearly can't think of any alternatives. I'm sure he didn't mean it to, but it comes off as pretty insensitive to her situation, and if I were Buffy, that's how I would've taken it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 18 2008 12:31 am #11Scarlet Ibis
Well, walking out on that job isn't a big deal to Buffy. I mean, when Riley asked her, it was all just dandy. And, he didn't comment on the burger smell. And being a vampire, you know he smelled it all the time. Also, he doesn't say it in a "what the hell is wrong with you?" way, he says it softly, tenderly, "You're better than this." If someone said that to me, I wouldn't be pissed off about it. Being a "backhanded compliment" is a matter of opinion. I'm just basing it upon how it was delivered. I do think that Buffy took it that way, but honestly, there was nothing that Spike could ever say to her at that point that she would take kindly, so her opinion was clearly biased.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 18 2008 01:43 am #12FetchingMadScientist
To be fair---at that point in her life, Spike could have told her that she was the most beautiful woman in the world, which he kind of did by telling her she was "better than this," and she would have taken it the wrong way. That doesn't make what he says any less true. There are other things she could do.
Spike did offer to get her money...yeah...maybe from stealing, or kitten poker, but at one point he did offer to start "...turning my back on the whole evil thing..." Maybe this was a start, and for all we know Spike could have been rather wealthy, William did seem to be upper-middle class at least; Spike could just steal because it's fun. :vampire: He is a vampire, you know. lol
Spike did offer to get her money...yeah...maybe from stealing, or kitten poker, but at one point he did offer to start "...turning my back on the whole evil thing..." Maybe this was a start, and for all we know Spike could have been rather wealthy, William did seem to be upper-middle class at least; Spike could just steal because it's fun. :vampire: He is a vampire, you know. lol
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Well, walking out on that job isn't a big deal to Buffy. I mean, when Riley asked her, it was all just dandy.
That's not the same thing. First of all, Riley didn't ask her to quit. She's still working at DMP in "Normal Again," so her leaving probably cost her at most the pay from that shift. Spike wanted her to leave and never come back, despite the fact that she didn't have any jobs lined up or any potential source of income to pay the bills.
And the reason she left was because Riley asked her for help with a demon. Buffy's Slayer duty always comes first, so it's no surprise she would skip out on the rest of her shift. It's a totally different thing than quitting on principle because she's "better than this."
That's not the same thing. First of all, Riley didn't ask her to quit. She's still working at DMP in "Normal Again," so her leaving probably cost her at most the pay from that shift. Spike wanted her to leave and never come back, despite the fact that she didn't have any jobs lined up or any potential source of income to pay the bills.
And the reason she left was because Riley asked her for help with a demon. Buffy's Slayer duty always comes first, so it's no surprise she would skip out on the rest of her shift. It's a totally different thing than quitting on principle because she's "better than this."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 18 2008 03:02 am #14Scarlet Ibis
Even so, he asks her to walk out on her job. In most cases, you'd be fired, not just not making your pay for the rest of the shift. She didn't talk to her manager--she just up and left cause Riley asked her to. If Riley had said the exact same thing as Spike, she would have agreed with him. Also, I don't see why she can leave when one guy says, "Hey, I know the last time I saw you, I gave you an ultimatum about how you weren't a good enough girlfriend, but can you leave work to do me a favor?" whereas the other who stayed and put up with her and her issues says, "You're above this--let me help you." Of course, they didn't say these exact words, but you get what I mean. She was far too agreeable with Riley considering, well, everything. I agree with FMS--it doesn't matter what Spike said or how he said. He wasn't important.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Spike, again, in this episode is that he is presented with both a Good and Bad face in this episode. I personally see his talk about the job as his attempt to give her good advice about her life - and I like the contrast between his first cheesy sexual innuendo and then his very serious face and voice in that scene. Plus I really liked how they show Buffy’s feelings about how hard it is for her to be there when she tells Spike not to make this harder. It's a wonderful contrast to her Scooby counter support scene. All that humor hides the way her life will not allow her to be "normal." Buffy herself states that after all she is back again in the "not normal" but "normal" for her with the Slayer duties and real world problems. Contrary to Xander's stated hope that Buffy will be all right once she gets adjusted the job, she will not be OK. Not only will Buffy not be OK, this getting of a "job" and being responsible and things going seriously "down hill" are beautifully foreshadowed in "DMP" for all the characters.
Spike having sex with Buffy in that alley – bad and ugly, but we know what comes next for them in an alley.
Anya and Xander's wedding disaster is foreshadowed as well as Anya's getting back into Vengeance. Anya and Hallie both wear the same style and color of clothing and Anya is wearing that amulet like necklace. Willow is outraged at Amy for invading her mind - which she so callously does to Tara in "Tabula Rasa." Buffy's use of sex and Spike to try to get through it all is still going on - was fun to see that "GONE" title on the employee check-in station. The Buffy-Spike and ugly sex in the alley finally hits their "rock bottom violent melt-down" in the next episode. Could they have come up with a more phallic looking demon that can paralyze the Slayer and that grows right out of a head –
So many viewers really disliked this episode, but I found myself loving all the great one-liners and at the same time, being totally creeped out during the "grill scene." The Double Meat Palace experience, like life, can take away your spirit and joy in life – but Buffy, and all the characters will eventually crawl their way back into a better life but not before they all go through their life hells.
Thanks for posting this episode discussion - Was great to watch "DMP" again
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
There's no evidence to show that he crashed the party.
Actually, Tara asked Buffy, "Did you invite Spike?" Buffy answered, no, because she was not ready for her friends to find out about them.
Actually, Tara asked Buffy, "Did you invite Spike?" Buffy answered, no, because she was not ready for her friends to find out about them.
As for Buffy being able to be anything, it's not that easy. She tried going back to school, work in construction, work in the Magic Box, not because she's qualified, but because of her friends' help. In Flooded, she tried to apply at a job, don't remember what it was, but she was not accepted. Buffy had stated in Doublemeat Palace that she chose that job because it's an easy way to get money. And I think it was also an easy way to get accepted. Talking about getting the job of your dreams is easy, but from my experience, it really is not. When you need money you have to suck it up and find anything available. Plus, Buffy doesn't have a college diploma, which can be a big deal sometimes.
Jul 18 2008 02:05 pm #19LadyYashka
In Flooded, she tried to apply at a job, don't remember what it was, but she was not accepted.
In Flooded, Buffy applies for a loan and is rejected.
As for DMP, Spike not only tells Buffy, "you're better than this.", he also offers to get her money. He never says how he can get money, but Buffy never ask either. She just turns him down.
In Flooded, Buffy applies for a loan and is rejected.
As for DMP, Spike not only tells Buffy, "you're better than this.", he also offers to get her money. He never says how he can get money, but Buffy never ask either. She just turns him down.
Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Jul 18 2008 03:05 pm #20Scarlet Ibis
But Buffy wasn't the only one handing out invites to her birthday party. It wasn't a surprise party, but I don't think she was throwing it herself...
As for the jobs, as well as going back to school, yeah, she tries, but not really. She fails horrendously cause of the trio, not because she couldn't do it. And she knew something was messing with her. In fact, if it weren't for Spike, she would have been content to just let it go, and not investigate it at all. That isn't giving it a fair shot at trying to do something else. That's just plain quitting. She just gave up, which is a big part of the reason Giles left in the first place. The problem is that she didn't put forth an effort to try again when there wasn't some spell making her suck on purpose.
As for Spike getting her money, that's a good point that she doesn't bother to ask. Perhaps if she had inquired how legitimate it was instead of just shutting him down, she may have found that not all of his ways of obtaining money were totally illegit. Some, but not all. And if they were, then she could have said no. It had nothing to do with pride, because after all, she takes Giles' money.
As for the jobs, as well as going back to school, yeah, she tries, but not really. She fails horrendously cause of the trio, not because she couldn't do it. And she knew something was messing with her. In fact, if it weren't for Spike, she would have been content to just let it go, and not investigate it at all. That isn't giving it a fair shot at trying to do something else. That's just plain quitting. She just gave up, which is a big part of the reason Giles left in the first place. The problem is that she didn't put forth an effort to try again when there wasn't some spell making her suck on purpose.
As for Spike getting her money, that's a good point that she doesn't bother to ask. Perhaps if she had inquired how legitimate it was instead of just shutting him down, she may have found that not all of his ways of obtaining money were totally illegit. Some, but not all. And if they were, then she could have said no. It had nothing to do with pride, because after all, she takes Giles' money.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Maybe she didn't want to take money from Spike or anyone else because by doing that she's just doing what Giles feared she'd do if he stayed: relying on others with her problems.
I have to say that I hated the way Giles left and the lesson he wanted to teach Buffy. While it was a good much-needed lesson, I think the timing rather sucked. He should have waited a little until Buffy adjusted more to being back from Heaven.
With the subject of jobs, it's not that easy to be accepted. Like I said the reason she was hired in construction and the Magic Box was because she knew people there and they helped her get accepted. Without their word, she may never have been accepted. That's why she chose the fastest, easiest way to get money.
I have to say that I hated the way Giles left and the lesson he wanted to teach Buffy. While it was a good much-needed lesson, I think the timing rather sucked. He should have waited a little until Buffy adjusted more to being back from Heaven.
With the subject of jobs, it's not that easy to be accepted. Like I said the reason she was hired in construction and the Magic Box was because she knew people there and they helped her get accepted. Without their word, she may never have been accepted. That's why she chose the fastest, easiest way to get money.
Jul 18 2008 04:37 pm #22Guest
Guest
Considering what minimum wage was back then, there's no way she could come close to paying the bills even with the DMP job. It was $6.25 in CA, then, I think, maybe $6.75. Thing is, they only put her there at DMP because it was the most visually humiliating they could think of, and it gave Joss a good way to make fun of the fast food industry (and they got in trouble with Burger King, I think it was, because of that one.) In reality, Buffy could have easily gotten a $8/hr job telemarketing, and they have all kinds of different shifts, plus commission. I know, I did it, in CA. All you have to do is memorize a short script and speak nice and clear. Plus commission, I got up to a few hundred dollars a week.
But we can't really compare TV-Buffy's options with what a real life Buffy could have done. A real-life Buffy could have sued her father for child support for Dawn, if he wasn't paying (we don't know if he wasn't, but minimum court required support is only a few hundred a month, anyway..). Real-life Buffy could work and do school part-time and qualify for lots of assistance as a student. Real-life Buffy could have went to the state and gotten food stamps so she and Dawn wouldn't starve, or welfare while she got on her feet.
But we're not dealing with a Real Life Buffy, so it's hard to judge her money making efforts just on TV. Her lack of motivation and frequent spazzing don't help, she's definitely not the can-do Buffy of the past. Interesting, that she yells at Spike "You were gonna fix my life", when she shuts him down otherwise. Anyway, Buffy doesn't take a breath and try to handle the problem one step at a time. She freaks because she can't insta-fix-it. It's amazing she didn't have constant panic attacks in every situation that wasn't Slayer-involved. She also can't keep her mouth shut when she's nervous. The babbling is BAD on interviews.
It would have played as hilarious and tragic, by the way, if they'd done an episode with all of Buffy's attempts at interviews and first days. I would have fallen off the couch at a montage of her putting her foot in her mouth, and it would have really helped keep her sympathetic to see her at least try (even if she failed). And then, DMP would be properly justified as her last resort for what she's qualified for. Just imagine her trying to barrista at the Espresso Pump! :D
As for Dawn, maybe she only feels close to the Scooby gang. Her memories have them in her life a lot longer than any friends she might have - did anyone have a friend in school for more at a year at a time, due to the fickle nature of kids? - and she can't share the weird stuff with her peers. She has to hide a big part of her life from other kids, so I can totally see where attention from the Scoobies would be important to her, not to mention from Buffy and Spike. She's the one with that freak of a sister everyone's heard about. She's the one with the dead mom (few kids I knew even had divorced parents in my neighborhood, let alone dead ones). She's the one without a father in her life. She's the one that has had many mysterious injuries. She's a klutz. But the Scoobies are family - can anyone really blame her for wanting them to spend just one night where she wasn't ignored?
CM
I can readily accept Buffy taking money and help from Giles - this is what Giles as "father substitute" would actually do - what most parents wanting to help their children in desperate time of need would do. This situation is not the same as when he left, or taking away Buffy's need to take responsibility for her life. Buffy needed financial support, the DMP, especially with the "grill scene" metaphor shows how Buffy is being consumed by everyday struggles and her mental state. It's an interesting point that Buffy also could see Spike as someone who could help her fix her life in "Life Serial" - exquisite sense of black humor when you take "DMP" and "Dead Things" together.
from sosa lola:
"I have to say that I hated the way Giles left and the lesson he wanted to teach Buffy. While it was a good much-needed lesson, I think the timing rather sucked. He should have waited a little until Buffy adjusted more to being back from Heaven."
I agree, his timing may have been wrong, but in another perspective I think Giles, at this point, has a lot of confidence that Buffy can, if she is forced to, take charge and responsibility for her life - the one thing that I think he really does get wrong is the level of responsibility that comes along with having to be a parent. Being a parent has got to be the MOST SCARY and STRESSFUL JOB of all. The Slayer was perfectly capable of being The Guardian, but Buffy as parent is a whole different matter.
After watching DMP again, I can see some aspect of Buffy The Slayer seeing DMP as getting money now, but it's all mixed up with her resurrection trauma and self-hatred and sex - Buffy is humiliated by being at the DMP - that poignant moment when she sees Spike and quickly removes that jester's cow cap, followed by her facial expression in the alley, really got to me. My heart just breaks for both Buffy and Spike, two such powerful warriors but broken people.
from sosa lola:
"I have to say that I hated the way Giles left and the lesson he wanted to teach Buffy. While it was a good much-needed lesson, I think the timing rather sucked. He should have waited a little until Buffy adjusted more to being back from Heaven."
I agree, his timing may have been wrong, but in another perspective I think Giles, at this point, has a lot of confidence that Buffy can, if she is forced to, take charge and responsibility for her life - the one thing that I think he really does get wrong is the level of responsibility that comes along with having to be a parent. Being a parent has got to be the MOST SCARY and STRESSFUL JOB of all. The Slayer was perfectly capable of being The Guardian, but Buffy as parent is a whole different matter.
After watching DMP again, I can see some aspect of Buffy The Slayer seeing DMP as getting money now, but it's all mixed up with her resurrection trauma and self-hatred and sex - Buffy is humiliated by being at the DMP - that poignant moment when she sees Spike and quickly removes that jester's cow cap, followed by her facial expression in the alley, really got to me. My heart just breaks for both Buffy and Spike, two such powerful warriors but broken people.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jul 18 2008 08:04 pm #24slaymesoftly
Moderator
As CM pointed out, the DMP job was more about making Buffy's life seem more miserable than it was about making a living. I remember thinking at the time that there was no way she could run a household (even if the mortgage got paid off -which I guess it was, since she still has the house by season seven) on what you make in a minimum wage job. This was a show about watching Buffy struggle back from the grave, not RL, so I don't think we can try to put RL parameters on it.
As far as taking money from Spike (as opposed to any other sort of help, which she was used to asking for from him), I think she would have felt that it was much too "couply" a thing to do, even if she weren't worried about where the money came from. To allow Spike to help support her would be to give him more reason to think that he was more than she wanted him to be. She pretty much shut her eyes to anything that would force her to acknowledge how big a part he was playing in her life. And every time she seemed to weaken, dumbass would open his mouth and remind her of what he was and inappropriate it was for her to be with him...LOL
I actually didn't get Giles leaving Buffy. I get that he thought he was supposed to be helping her grow up, but I don't know that I think he was that stupid or uncaring that he would not have changed his mind once he understood the full reason for her inability to adjust quickly. A good "parent", surrogate or otherwise, would have hung around to offer experienced, adult advice about finances, employment, etc and would have put off leaving until he was sure that she was on her feet both financially and emotionally. Anything else was just really irresponsible, IMHO. We're talking about a 21-year old girl, here (less than that? 20, maybe?) who, due to her rather important night job and subsequent death, has not had time to even adjust to being motherless, let alone running a household and being a surrogate mother for someone else. She needed guidance as much as she needed financial help, and that he could have provided. I was very diappointed in Giles - even though his leaving did open up the opportunity for Spuffiness.
But then, as I said above, everything was done in the interest of providing drama for a TV show, not to demonstrate RL situations...
As far as taking money from Spike (as opposed to any other sort of help, which she was used to asking for from him), I think she would have felt that it was much too "couply" a thing to do, even if she weren't worried about where the money came from. To allow Spike to help support her would be to give him more reason to think that he was more than she wanted him to be. She pretty much shut her eyes to anything that would force her to acknowledge how big a part he was playing in her life. And every time she seemed to weaken, dumbass would open his mouth and remind her of what he was and inappropriate it was for her to be with him...LOL
I actually didn't get Giles leaving Buffy. I get that he thought he was supposed to be helping her grow up, but I don't know that I think he was that stupid or uncaring that he would not have changed his mind once he understood the full reason for her inability to adjust quickly. A good "parent", surrogate or otherwise, would have hung around to offer experienced, adult advice about finances, employment, etc and would have put off leaving until he was sure that she was on her feet both financially and emotionally. Anything else was just really irresponsible, IMHO. We're talking about a 21-year old girl, here (less than that? 20, maybe?) who, due to her rather important night job and subsequent death, has not had time to even adjust to being motherless, let alone running a household and being a surrogate mother for someone else. She needed guidance as much as she needed financial help, and that he could have provided. I was very diappointed in Giles - even though his leaving did open up the opportunity for Spuffiness.
But then, as I said above, everything was done in the interest of providing drama for a TV show, not to demonstrate RL situations...
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
I am upper management.
He never says how he can get money, but Buffy never ask either. She just turns him down.
Remember season 4, when Spike was so hard up for money, he had to ask the Scoobies to pay him in exchange for his help? Or season 5, when he was stealing Xander's change? I think Buffy turned him down because she pretty much assumed it would be illegal, since when has Spike ever been seen legally obtaining money, or given her any indication that he has savings of any kind?
It had nothing to do with pride, because after all, she takes Giles' money.
There is a difference, though, between relying on Giles (her father figure, who undoubtedly earned the money honestly) and relying on Spike (an evil, soulless vampire who, as I said earlier, would most likely be stealing it). Maybe it wouldn't make a difference to you or me, but it makes a difference to Buffy. In fact, I know I'd be much more inclined to borrow or ask for money from my parents than from my friends, so it makes sense that she'd take Giles' money and not Spike's, even without the question of where it comes from.
It would have played as hilarious and tragic, by the way, if they'd done an episode with all of Buffy's attempts at interviews and first days.
Wouldn't that have been pretty much like "Life Serial," though, only without the Trio's interference? I can kind of see why they didn't do that, since it would seem like a rehash of the previous episode.
But we can't really compare TV-Buffy's options with what a real life Buffy could have done.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The reason Buffy gets the job she does is because it's all one big theme for how her life sucks and being a grown-up is hard. The DMP is just one aspect of that - her degradation at that job is a necessary piece of her struggle. A decent-paying job as a self-defense instructor, or even as a telemarketer, while it might make more sense in the real world, doesn't fit that theme. Buffy on welfare might have been interesting commentary, though...
Remember season 4, when Spike was so hard up for money, he had to ask the Scoobies to pay him in exchange for his help? Or season 5, when he was stealing Xander's change? I think Buffy turned him down because she pretty much assumed it would be illegal, since when has Spike ever been seen legally obtaining money, or given her any indication that he has savings of any kind?
It had nothing to do with pride, because after all, she takes Giles' money.
There is a difference, though, between relying on Giles (her father figure, who undoubtedly earned the money honestly) and relying on Spike (an evil, soulless vampire who, as I said earlier, would most likely be stealing it). Maybe it wouldn't make a difference to you or me, but it makes a difference to Buffy. In fact, I know I'd be much more inclined to borrow or ask for money from my parents than from my friends, so it makes sense that she'd take Giles' money and not Spike's, even without the question of where it comes from.
It would have played as hilarious and tragic, by the way, if they'd done an episode with all of Buffy's attempts at interviews and first days.
Wouldn't that have been pretty much like "Life Serial," though, only without the Trio's interference? I can kind of see why they didn't do that, since it would seem like a rehash of the previous episode.
But we can't really compare TV-Buffy's options with what a real life Buffy could have done.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The reason Buffy gets the job she does is because it's all one big theme for how her life sucks and being a grown-up is hard. The DMP is just one aspect of that - her degradation at that job is a necessary piece of her struggle. A decent-paying job as a self-defense instructor, or even as a telemarketer, while it might make more sense in the real world, doesn't fit that theme. Buffy on welfare might have been interesting commentary, though...
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 19 2008 05:44 am #26Scarlet Ibis
good "parent", surrogate or otherwise, would have hung around to offer experienced, adult advice about finances, employment, etc and would have put off leaving until he was sure that she was on her feet both financially and emotionally. Anything else was just really irresponsible, IMHO.
Well, sticking with the whole "we can't compare it to RL parameters," then on that same token, we can't blame Giles for leaving and finally moving on with his life. Not only that, he had been planning to leave for some time, before things got complicated again--Buffy being staked, the Glory business, Buffy dying. If anything, her death probably reinforced his own mortality. It almost would have been more realistic if he had just come back for an actual visit, as opposed to moving back completely (if he even did that. Did he go back to his flat? Did he send for his things from England? All of that is kind of glossed over), making sure that everyone understood that yes, he had really moved on with his life.
Remember season 4, when Spike was so hard up for money, he had to ask the Scoobies to pay him in exchange for his help? Or season 5, when he was stealing Xander's change? I think Buffy turned him down because she pretty much assumed it would be illegal, since when has Spike ever been seen legally obtaining money, or given her any indication that he has savings of any kind?
Yeah...but that was years ago. That isn't the same Spike. Helping her friends in her stead is the opposite of that. The most illegal thing she'd see him do at that point in s6 was cheat at kitten poker at a table of demons (who all cheated), and steal a bit of burba weed from the Magic Box. As for Spike and savings, Buffy asks him for his advice on just that in "Flooded." At that point of DMP, her turning him down had nothing to do with his morals or lack thereof at that point, but more along the lines of her being vehement that he was only good for one thing--maybe two if you count slaying. She was in huge denial of how much of a help he truly was to her, and how much she relied/leaned on him, when all of the other people around her were not.
ETA: That last bit wasn't a backdoor insult about Giles--he wasn't actually around her. Now that comment definitely sounded like a backdoor insult, but it really wasn't. However, from Buffy's POV, she probably saw it as just that, him abandoning/leaving her for selfish reasons (well, initially, not later), and I don't agree. All of the points given in Sosa's comment beneath mine, I agree with 100&
Well, sticking with the whole "we can't compare it to RL parameters," then on that same token, we can't blame Giles for leaving and finally moving on with his life. Not only that, he had been planning to leave for some time, before things got complicated again--Buffy being staked, the Glory business, Buffy dying. If anything, her death probably reinforced his own mortality. It almost would have been more realistic if he had just come back for an actual visit, as opposed to moving back completely (if he even did that. Did he go back to his flat? Did he send for his things from England? All of that is kind of glossed over), making sure that everyone understood that yes, he had really moved on with his life.
Remember season 4, when Spike was so hard up for money, he had to ask the Scoobies to pay him in exchange for his help? Or season 5, when he was stealing Xander's change? I think Buffy turned him down because she pretty much assumed it would be illegal, since when has Spike ever been seen legally obtaining money, or given her any indication that he has savings of any kind?
Yeah...but that was years ago. That isn't the same Spike. Helping her friends in her stead is the opposite of that. The most illegal thing she'd see him do at that point in s6 was cheat at kitten poker at a table of demons (who all cheated), and steal a bit of burba weed from the Magic Box. As for Spike and savings, Buffy asks him for his advice on just that in "Flooded." At that point of DMP, her turning him down had nothing to do with his morals or lack thereof at that point, but more along the lines of her being vehement that he was only good for one thing--maybe two if you count slaying. She was in huge denial of how much of a help he truly was to her, and how much she relied/leaned on him, when all of the other people around her were not.
ETA: That last bit wasn't a backdoor insult about Giles--he wasn't actually around her. Now that comment definitely sounded like a backdoor insult, but it really wasn't. However, from Buffy's POV, she probably saw it as just that, him abandoning/leaving her for selfish reasons (well, initially, not later), and I don't agree. All of the points given in Sosa's comment beneath mine, I agree with 100&
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 19 2008 05:50 am #27Scarlet Ibis
Also, it was okay to go to him for help or conversation pre-kissing. But when that happened, it was as if that aspect of their relationship had to be shut down completely. For whatever reason, she couldn't handle being in an actual relationship with him. Why? :shrug: What makes it even more hard to understand is that previously, she stood up to her friends about Spike's importance to the group ("He stays. Get over it." ). Now, when Spike isn't even on the outside, which to me would have made a transition for them much easier than several months before, somehow, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I guess one can chalk it all up to oblivious writers, or other adjectives I won't get into.
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Re- Giles leaving, here's what Vampmogs says:
"I think Giles has a strong case to back up what he did, and the fact that Buffy actually says he was right in 'Grave' only gives him more credit IMO. He was right, Buffy wouldn't learn to stand onto her own two feet unless she didn't have that option. We saw it on multiple occasions of Buffy asking for Giles to step in and make the decisions for her, she didn't want the responsibility but she had it, and it wasn't up to Giles to fulfil her role. It started back as early as 'Tough Love' when she wanted him to discipline Dawn for skipping school, and he forced her to do it herself. And it continued in 'Halloween' after Dawn lies to Buffy and gets into trouble with the vamps, and there's other hints, such as Buffy's need for Giles' validation of her 'life stuff plans' at the dinner table in which Giles replies, "it's really not up to me."
Yes Buffy had just come out of a terrible situation, but as Cidredrinker says, “is there ever a good time?” Giles tells Buffy in ‘Tabula Rasa’ that “now more than ever” it was important he’d leave when Buffy brings up what she’s been through. Giles states the “temptation to give up is going to be enormous” and that he’ll inevitably step in because he “can’t bare to see her suffer.” There was never a good time for him to leave, there’d always be some excuse from Buffy as to why he shouldn’t. In season five it would have been because of Glory or the death of her mother, I felt he made the right decision ultimately.
It’s not as if he abandoned her, he tells Buffy that one of the most grown up things she can do is ask for help when she needs it in ‘Grave.’ That’s not the same as shrugging of responsibilities onto someone else like she was doing prior to his leaving, it’s asking for advice whilst she makes the decisions. He also gave her a hefty pay check and came back for slayer stuff as such as Willow in ‘Grave’ and The First in ‘Bring on the Night’ to ‘Chosen.’
And Buffy actually feels that he was right and it benefited her. She tells Giles that he was right to leave and that it was time for her to start acting like a grown up. That validation of what Giles did from the girl herself speaks volumes to me, if Buffy felt it had positive results on her than I can’t fault Giles because ultimately who’s better to tell us than Buffy herself?
Also, taking on a purely selfish reason here- Giles had his own life. We hear a lot of talk about Buffy’s ties to the council and how she was oppressed and given a duty she never asked for it. It was seen as a highpoint and ‘graduation’ for her when she quits the council in season three. Why not the same for Giles? Doesn’t he deserve similar treatment or should he be endlessly bound to serving Buffy and living his life through Buffy? In ‘Never Kill A Boy On The First Date’ he explains how, much like Buffy, he was destined to be a Watcher even though he never had wanted to be, from a very early age. Just like Buffy, Giles is entitled to his own life.
He was constantly mocked by the Scoobs in season four for not having a job or a girlfriend or a sense of purpose anymore and yet when he says he’s leaving in ‘Buffy VS Dracula’ they want him to stick around because they like the comfort of being watched over? That’s just no fair to Giles, that just isn’t his responsibility. He wasn’t getting any younger, commented on the near ‘statistical impossibility’ for a man his age to actually make a new friend and wanted to go home, and that’s what England was to him; home. He never liked America from what I could tell, he was just forced to live there initially because that just happened to be where the slayer was called."
"I think Giles has a strong case to back up what he did, and the fact that Buffy actually says he was right in 'Grave' only gives him more credit IMO. He was right, Buffy wouldn't learn to stand onto her own two feet unless she didn't have that option. We saw it on multiple occasions of Buffy asking for Giles to step in and make the decisions for her, she didn't want the responsibility but she had it, and it wasn't up to Giles to fulfil her role. It started back as early as 'Tough Love' when she wanted him to discipline Dawn for skipping school, and he forced her to do it herself. And it continued in 'Halloween' after Dawn lies to Buffy and gets into trouble with the vamps, and there's other hints, such as Buffy's need for Giles' validation of her 'life stuff plans' at the dinner table in which Giles replies, "it's really not up to me."
Yes Buffy had just come out of a terrible situation, but as Cidredrinker says, “is there ever a good time?” Giles tells Buffy in ‘Tabula Rasa’ that “now more than ever” it was important he’d leave when Buffy brings up what she’s been through. Giles states the “temptation to give up is going to be enormous” and that he’ll inevitably step in because he “can’t bare to see her suffer.” There was never a good time for him to leave, there’d always be some excuse from Buffy as to why he shouldn’t. In season five it would have been because of Glory or the death of her mother, I felt he made the right decision ultimately.
It’s not as if he abandoned her, he tells Buffy that one of the most grown up things she can do is ask for help when she needs it in ‘Grave.’ That’s not the same as shrugging of responsibilities onto someone else like she was doing prior to his leaving, it’s asking for advice whilst she makes the decisions. He also gave her a hefty pay check and came back for slayer stuff as such as Willow in ‘Grave’ and The First in ‘Bring on the Night’ to ‘Chosen.’
And Buffy actually feels that he was right and it benefited her. She tells Giles that he was right to leave and that it was time for her to start acting like a grown up. That validation of what Giles did from the girl herself speaks volumes to me, if Buffy felt it had positive results on her than I can’t fault Giles because ultimately who’s better to tell us than Buffy herself?
Also, taking on a purely selfish reason here- Giles had his own life. We hear a lot of talk about Buffy’s ties to the council and how she was oppressed and given a duty she never asked for it. It was seen as a highpoint and ‘graduation’ for her when she quits the council in season three. Why not the same for Giles? Doesn’t he deserve similar treatment or should he be endlessly bound to serving Buffy and living his life through Buffy? In ‘Never Kill A Boy On The First Date’ he explains how, much like Buffy, he was destined to be a Watcher even though he never had wanted to be, from a very early age. Just like Buffy, Giles is entitled to his own life.
He was constantly mocked by the Scoobs in season four for not having a job or a girlfriend or a sense of purpose anymore and yet when he says he’s leaving in ‘Buffy VS Dracula’ they want him to stick around because they like the comfort of being watched over? That’s just no fair to Giles, that just isn’t his responsibility. He wasn’t getting any younger, commented on the near ‘statistical impossibility’ for a man his age to actually make a new friend and wanted to go home, and that’s what England was to him; home. He never liked America from what I could tell, he was just forced to live there initially because that just happened to be where the slayer was called."
I do get all of that (Giles' reasons for leaving), but one thing sticks in my mind. She was twenty years old, and responsible for a fourteen-year-old girl. Now, maybe that's not Giles' problem, and maybe he should've advised Buffy to ship Dawn off to Social Services if she couldn't handle it, but Giles is the closest thing to a parent she has at this point. I expected him to care. I expected him to do what's best for Dawn as well as Buffy.
Dawn clearly has issues in season 6, most of them stemming from her feelings of abandonment and being ignored and thinking no one cares about her. She could've benefited from a good father figure. Hell, any parental figure would've been nice, because Buffy certainly wasn't doing it.
And to be fair to Buffy, I wouldn't have been prepared to be a mother at twenty. I couldn't even comprehend the amount of responsibility involved. Although Buffy is very mature in the Slayer aspects of her life, in the everyday aspects of life, she's still just a girl. She's never really had to take care of herself - trying to handle things when Joyce was sick nearly broke her. It's one thing to learn to be an adult and care for yourself (and Buffy was certainly at the right age for that), but being thrown into caring for a teenager at the same time is a much greater burden, and Giles doesn't seem to acknowledge that at all.
Why not the same for Giles? Doesn’t he deserve similar treatment or should he be endlessly bound to serving Buffy and living his life through Buffy?
Even though Buffy quit the Council, she never abandoned her duties as Slayer. I thought Slayers were always supposed to have a Watcher... no one ever said anything about "once Slayers reach a certain age, the Watcher leaves so that they can learn to rely on themselves." That was all something Giles decided, and it had nothing to do with Buffy as a Slayer - it was about her personal life. As a Watcher, his duty was to continue to guide his Slayer, until her death.
So, to turn the question around, if Buffy is never allowed to shirk her responsibility as a Slayer in order to have a life (go to a good college, leave Sunnydale, have a career and not die before she's twenty-one), why should Giles get that privilege? They both serve the same cause. To say that Giles has the freedom to give up being a Watcher when Buffy can never give up being the Slayer only drives home the fact that the Slayer is still a slave, even when she quits the Council.
Dawn clearly has issues in season 6, most of them stemming from her feelings of abandonment and being ignored and thinking no one cares about her. She could've benefited from a good father figure. Hell, any parental figure would've been nice, because Buffy certainly wasn't doing it.
And to be fair to Buffy, I wouldn't have been prepared to be a mother at twenty. I couldn't even comprehend the amount of responsibility involved. Although Buffy is very mature in the Slayer aspects of her life, in the everyday aspects of life, she's still just a girl. She's never really had to take care of herself - trying to handle things when Joyce was sick nearly broke her. It's one thing to learn to be an adult and care for yourself (and Buffy was certainly at the right age for that), but being thrown into caring for a teenager at the same time is a much greater burden, and Giles doesn't seem to acknowledge that at all.
Why not the same for Giles? Doesn’t he deserve similar treatment or should he be endlessly bound to serving Buffy and living his life through Buffy?
Even though Buffy quit the Council, she never abandoned her duties as Slayer. I thought Slayers were always supposed to have a Watcher... no one ever said anything about "once Slayers reach a certain age, the Watcher leaves so that they can learn to rely on themselves." That was all something Giles decided, and it had nothing to do with Buffy as a Slayer - it was about her personal life. As a Watcher, his duty was to continue to guide his Slayer, until her death.
So, to turn the question around, if Buffy is never allowed to shirk her responsibility as a Slayer in order to have a life (go to a good college, leave Sunnydale, have a career and not die before she's twenty-one), why should Giles get that privilege? They both serve the same cause. To say that Giles has the freedom to give up being a Watcher when Buffy can never give up being the Slayer only drives home the fact that the Slayer is still a slave, even when she quits the Council.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 19 2008 06:22 pm #30Scarlet Ibis
to be fair to Buffy, I wouldn't have been prepared to be a mother at twenty.
I think we're blowing this whole "mother" thing out of proportion. Dawn was not a baby or a toddler, or even a child. She was fifteen. Sure, she needed quality time with her big sis, but it isn't the same as being an actual mother starting at point one. Buffy's main responsibility that she couldn't handle was paying bills. Raising a baby is hard. Raising a child who has to be picked up from school, needs help with homework is rough. Raising a teen (who could have had a student job with parental consent, btw) isn't easy, sure, but not nearly as hard as it's made to be compared to a crying child who doesn't understand things that go on in the house.
ETA: For raising a teen, the worst thing that Buffy would have had to have been concerned about was grades, drugs, sex, and gangs. None of those ever came into play for Dawn (cept for grades for like five minutes in s5). Besides her "I seek attention" stealing, which is nipped in the bud once Buffy actually found out that she was doing that, Dawn wasn't much trouble at all. When you think of all of the things that Dawn could have been doing, she was pretty close to a parent's wet dream.
As for Buffy never being allowed to leave her Slayerly duties, well, again, season six is about choices, right? She wasn't the slayer for five months while she was dead, and she didn't have to start slaying again. Her other responsibilities could have taken precedence over that if she chose for them to be. To continue slaying, and how much she slayed was her choice. No one forced her to. In fact, being the slayer is her security blanket--it's what made her feel superior (and somehow inferior at the same time). She wasn't going to give that up regardless. No one said she had to keep doing it. There was no real "big bad" threat in s6, well, till Willow, and her friends could have continued patrol for her while she worked if she asked them to.
I think we're blowing this whole "mother" thing out of proportion. Dawn was not a baby or a toddler, or even a child. She was fifteen. Sure, she needed quality time with her big sis, but it isn't the same as being an actual mother starting at point one. Buffy's main responsibility that she couldn't handle was paying bills. Raising a baby is hard. Raising a child who has to be picked up from school, needs help with homework is rough. Raising a teen (who could have had a student job with parental consent, btw) isn't easy, sure, but not nearly as hard as it's made to be compared to a crying child who doesn't understand things that go on in the house.
ETA: For raising a teen, the worst thing that Buffy would have had to have been concerned about was grades, drugs, sex, and gangs. None of those ever came into play for Dawn (cept for grades for like five minutes in s5). Besides her "I seek attention" stealing, which is nipped in the bud once Buffy actually found out that she was doing that, Dawn wasn't much trouble at all. When you think of all of the things that Dawn could have been doing, she was pretty close to a parent's wet dream.
As for Buffy never being allowed to leave her Slayerly duties, well, again, season six is about choices, right? She wasn't the slayer for five months while she was dead, and she didn't have to start slaying again. Her other responsibilities could have taken precedence over that if she chose for them to be. To continue slaying, and how much she slayed was her choice. No one forced her to. In fact, being the slayer is her security blanket--it's what made her feel superior (and somehow inferior at the same time). She wasn't going to give that up regardless. No one said she had to keep doing it. There was no real "big bad" threat in s6, well, till Willow, and her friends could have continued patrol for her while she worked if she asked them to.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jul 22 2008 03:30 am #31Guest
Guest
Phfft!, Buffy is so much better than working at Shit palace. She's a smart girl, and i really don't understand why she didn't get a job selling chlotes while going to college or something. Much better than being all greasey.
-Becoming ChosenGirl13
I agree with Eowyn on this one, why would a slayer ever not need a watcher? At a minimum? Unless she could some how absorb the knowledge it took the watcher years to learn, she's always going to need that resource. As usual, I'm going to have to point a finger at the writers on this one - the story, the characters just weren't ready for the plot lines of season six (or seven). The big plot lines felt forced and at many times just plain stupid.
Giles felt that Buffy needed to take responsibility for her life, her sister, without any support from anyone over the age of twenty-two a few short months after dying, being ripped out of heaven and crawling out of her grave because, you know, a few weeks is plenty of time to deal. Say what? Sorry. Just don't buy it. Giles supposedly had a father's love for Buffy. At most, realistically, a episode or three of him moving out of town or, better, slamming the door in everyone's faces when they came to him for anything unrelated to slaying. That actually would have been really funny. Giles doing his own thing and pulling a, "uh, what? can't hear you, must be the connection," and giving her the dial tone every time Buffy called for help in disciplining Dawn. S6 & S7 are perfect examples of writers telling the stories they want to tell instead of carrying on the story they were telling in the first place.
"Doublemeat Palace" is probably my least favorite episode next to "Superstar" in the entire series. I felt that way watching it the night it first aired and and still feel that why when I watch the DVD. It stunk. Having done the gauntlet of working in the fast food industry there were moments where I saw what they were going for, because it does sort of suck the life out of you, but overall the writers missed the mark.
I've always thought that (when I'm not gnashing my teeth at the writers and ignoring them behind the curtain) that Buffy worked at DP because it was just easier. I've been there. When you are struggling with a full life outside of the work-thing whatever it is you that have to do so you have enough money for basic survival things like food and shelter, sometimes its just easier to go with the job that gives you clothes to wear, expects you to follow very easy scripted actions and isn't something you have to think too hard about. It's also a trapped pit that's very difficult to dig your way out of when you are living hand to mouth because there usually isn't a great deal of flexibility. One of the hardest decisions I ever made was to chose between going to work, keeping my current job, and arriving on time for a job interview for a slightly better job where my chances were slim. It paid off for me, but it could have turned out badly. When you are literally living a life counting the minutes from one paycheck to the next, because the landlord is stalking your door and you're living on tuna and ramen noodles, a two-to-four week wait for the new job's pay cycle to kick in can mean the difference between having a roof and being homeless. It's easier to keep the cow hat.
(I just have to point out here that I really didn't buy Buffy the Cashier at all.)
Though, all of the above doesn't really apply to BtVS or this particular episode because they were rarely very realistic about true life situations. I kept expecting some sort of line from someone about Joyce's art gallery, a will, something, anything to give the audience an idea of how Buffy ended up in such a situation. The Joyce we saw for fives season would have had some sort of plan for her girls. Especially after the surgery. Got time for dating? Sure. I can also see her first day back on her feet she's walking to a lawyer to draw up a will, buy some life insurance, make plans. The whole mess in season six was purely a plot that just forgot or ignored what came before because it was needed for the story.
"Older and Far Away" was an annoying episode in my opinion, but I see no reason to bash it in this thread. Overall it made Buffy seem especially callous toward just about everyone and Dawn far too immature for a kid that is supposedly the same age as Buffy was when the series started.
It's funny - I write up a post like this and it seems like I'm not that big of a fan of the show when I actually love it. Strange huh? Guess it's just me being oniony.
:)
Giles felt that Buffy needed to take responsibility for her life, her sister, without any support from anyone over the age of twenty-two a few short months after dying, being ripped out of heaven and crawling out of her grave because, you know, a few weeks is plenty of time to deal. Say what? Sorry. Just don't buy it. Giles supposedly had a father's love for Buffy. At most, realistically, a episode or three of him moving out of town or, better, slamming the door in everyone's faces when they came to him for anything unrelated to slaying. That actually would have been really funny. Giles doing his own thing and pulling a, "uh, what? can't hear you, must be the connection," and giving her the dial tone every time Buffy called for help in disciplining Dawn. S6 & S7 are perfect examples of writers telling the stories they want to tell instead of carrying on the story they were telling in the first place.
"Doublemeat Palace" is probably my least favorite episode next to "Superstar" in the entire series. I felt that way watching it the night it first aired and and still feel that why when I watch the DVD. It stunk. Having done the gauntlet of working in the fast food industry there were moments where I saw what they were going for, because it does sort of suck the life out of you, but overall the writers missed the mark.
I've always thought that (when I'm not gnashing my teeth at the writers and ignoring them behind the curtain) that Buffy worked at DP because it was just easier. I've been there. When you are struggling with a full life outside of the work-thing whatever it is you that have to do so you have enough money for basic survival things like food and shelter, sometimes its just easier to go with the job that gives you clothes to wear, expects you to follow very easy scripted actions and isn't something you have to think too hard about. It's also a trapped pit that's very difficult to dig your way out of when you are living hand to mouth because there usually isn't a great deal of flexibility. One of the hardest decisions I ever made was to chose between going to work, keeping my current job, and arriving on time for a job interview for a slightly better job where my chances were slim. It paid off for me, but it could have turned out badly. When you are literally living a life counting the minutes from one paycheck to the next, because the landlord is stalking your door and you're living on tuna and ramen noodles, a two-to-four week wait for the new job's pay cycle to kick in can mean the difference between having a roof and being homeless. It's easier to keep the cow hat.
(I just have to point out here that I really didn't buy Buffy the Cashier at all.)
Though, all of the above doesn't really apply to BtVS or this particular episode because they were rarely very realistic about true life situations. I kept expecting some sort of line from someone about Joyce's art gallery, a will, something, anything to give the audience an idea of how Buffy ended up in such a situation. The Joyce we saw for fives season would have had some sort of plan for her girls. Especially after the surgery. Got time for dating? Sure. I can also see her first day back on her feet she's walking to a lawyer to draw up a will, buy some life insurance, make plans. The whole mess in season six was purely a plot that just forgot or ignored what came before because it was needed for the story.
"Older and Far Away" was an annoying episode in my opinion, but I see no reason to bash it in this thread. Overall it made Buffy seem especially callous toward just about everyone and Dawn far too immature for a kid that is supposedly the same age as Buffy was when the series started.
It's funny - I write up a post like this and it seems like I'm not that big of a fan of the show when I actually love it. Strange huh? Guess it's just me being oniony.
:)
~ Q
It's funny - I write up a post like this and it seems like I'm not that big of a fan of the show when I actually love it. Strange huh? Guess it's just me being oniony.
This is always what comes to mind for me as well - how much we all see so many problems with the scripts and yet still love and admire the series so completely. All the problems, real or imagined from the viewers perspective, just make you think more and more about all the characters, scripts, Buffyverse contrasted and compared to RL -
How many people here ever on to other boards with the same level of passion and questions about any film or series?
For me, DMP, is not about work it's about Buffy and her mental state and how she is being consumed by life, not just for Buffy but all the characters. In some ways Spike is the most. honest character in acknowledging his emotional state at this point. Not saying that what he wants is good or bad, that is something that each viewer has their own opinions and judgements about - only that he at least knows where he is with his love and what he is willing to give and take from Buffy as we see in Dead Things. Paralyzed and having to crawl but eventually, with Willow they get the job of saving the world done - like the two also work together in Chosen along with Spike who will also love, give his help, and find his own self-respect and path in the finale.
We can go all the way back to OMWF to the indications of Giles' concern about his Slayer and her mental state - plus in OMWF we also see visually the three characters that will be leaving, Giles, Tara and Spike sing overlay-ed songs and will either die, leave or be transformed.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I think we're blowing this whole "mother" thing out of proportion. Dawn was not a baby or a toddler, or even a child. She was fifteen.
Sure, it's easier than taking care of a baby, but that doesn't mean it's easy. Especially for a girl who's never had to take care of herself, let alone anyone else. She doesn't know how to cook, she doesn't have a job for a good long while, she has no idea about managing finances, and she's terrible at disciplining. She can't even seem to manage simple household tasks like getting the garbage to the curb on time. And maybe Dawn should have helped out more, but the fact is that she didn't (and a good parental figure would've encouraged/required it, and Buffy didn't). If Buffy was having such an easy time of it taking care of Dawn, I don't think she'd have been threatened with Dawn being taken away by Social Services - twice.
Dawn may not have been a problem child (although you did forget about the cutting school, sneaking out of the house, not to mention parking with a vampire, which almost got her killed), but I think it's a sign of how ill-equipped Buffy was to be a parent that the one big issue she had (the stealing) goes unchecked as long as it does. She started stealing way back in season 5 - in "Intervention." She doesn't get caught until almost a year later - and it's Anya that catches her, not Buffy.
Maybe some twenty-year-olds are responsible enough to take care of a teenager, but Buffy certainly wasn't, and I think Giles should've realized that. Maybe he thought they'd be okay, since Willow and Tara took care of her all summer, but he didn't know that Tara would move out and Willow would be wrapped up in her own downward spiral. Still, while there might never be a "good" time for him to leave, there certainly were better times than this.
She wasn't the slayer for five months while she was dead, and she didn't have to start slaying again. Her other responsibilities could have taken precedence over that if she chose for them to be.
I didn't get the impression that she had a choice. The cemetery scene in "Bargaining" pretty much demonstrates how badly they need Buffy back. It takes all six of them - plus the Buffybot - to replace one Slayer. And with the Buffybot destroyed, Buffy needed to make at least a regular appearance on patrol to keep the demons at bay. Plus, their slay-brigade lost two members when Giles and Tara left. Even if they'd wanted to, I don't think her friends could've taken over for her at that point.
As usual, I'm going to have to point a finger at the writers on this one - the story, the characters just weren't ready for the plot lines of season six (or seven).
I think at least one finger needs to be pointed at Anthony Stewart Head, as well. A big reason for his being only part-time in the last two seasons is because he wanted to spend more time in England with his family, meaning they had to do without his character for long stretches of episodes. It is on the writers for how they handled his departure, though.
The Joyce we saw for fives season would have had some sort of plan for her girls. Especially after the surgery.
The impression I got was that Willow and Tara didn't really manage the finances very well in Buffy's absence. Apparently, Joyce had life insurance, but her hospital bills sucked up a lot of money (did she not have health insurance? I guess it's possible if she owned her own business, but not very responsible for a woman with a brain tumor and two children). And it seemed that the mortgage on the house drained a lot of money - which, yeah, I guess it would if you're paying a mortgage for five months without any income. No idea what happened to the gallery.
Sure, it's easier than taking care of a baby, but that doesn't mean it's easy. Especially for a girl who's never had to take care of herself, let alone anyone else. She doesn't know how to cook, she doesn't have a job for a good long while, she has no idea about managing finances, and she's terrible at disciplining. She can't even seem to manage simple household tasks like getting the garbage to the curb on time. And maybe Dawn should have helped out more, but the fact is that she didn't (and a good parental figure would've encouraged/required it, and Buffy didn't). If Buffy was having such an easy time of it taking care of Dawn, I don't think she'd have been threatened with Dawn being taken away by Social Services - twice.
Dawn may not have been a problem child (although you did forget about the cutting school, sneaking out of the house, not to mention parking with a vampire, which almost got her killed), but I think it's a sign of how ill-equipped Buffy was to be a parent that the one big issue she had (the stealing) goes unchecked as long as it does. She started stealing way back in season 5 - in "Intervention." She doesn't get caught until almost a year later - and it's Anya that catches her, not Buffy.
Maybe some twenty-year-olds are responsible enough to take care of a teenager, but Buffy certainly wasn't, and I think Giles should've realized that. Maybe he thought they'd be okay, since Willow and Tara took care of her all summer, but he didn't know that Tara would move out and Willow would be wrapped up in her own downward spiral. Still, while there might never be a "good" time for him to leave, there certainly were better times than this.
She wasn't the slayer for five months while she was dead, and she didn't have to start slaying again. Her other responsibilities could have taken precedence over that if she chose for them to be.
I didn't get the impression that she had a choice. The cemetery scene in "Bargaining" pretty much demonstrates how badly they need Buffy back. It takes all six of them - plus the Buffybot - to replace one Slayer. And with the Buffybot destroyed, Buffy needed to make at least a regular appearance on patrol to keep the demons at bay. Plus, their slay-brigade lost two members when Giles and Tara left. Even if they'd wanted to, I don't think her friends could've taken over for her at that point.
As usual, I'm going to have to point a finger at the writers on this one - the story, the characters just weren't ready for the plot lines of season six (or seven).
I think at least one finger needs to be pointed at Anthony Stewart Head, as well. A big reason for his being only part-time in the last two seasons is because he wanted to spend more time in England with his family, meaning they had to do without his character for long stretches of episodes. It is on the writers for how they handled his departure, though.
The Joyce we saw for fives season would have had some sort of plan for her girls. Especially after the surgery.
The impression I got was that Willow and Tara didn't really manage the finances very well in Buffy's absence. Apparently, Joyce had life insurance, but her hospital bills sucked up a lot of money (did she not have health insurance? I guess it's possible if she owned her own business, but not very responsible for a woman with a brain tumor and two children). And it seemed that the mortgage on the house drained a lot of money - which, yeah, I guess it would if you're paying a mortgage for five months without any income. No idea what happened to the gallery.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jul 23 2008 08:39 am #35Guest
Guest
'Course, they had to use the Buffybot to get access to all that (which was fraud). And health insurance only goes so far. Most plans require a deductible, and most plans make you pay for so much, just less than you would if the hospital billed you directly.
Realistically, dealing with a family member's death, in the practical sense, is not an overnight process. Funerals are expensive, then, you have to send certified copies of the death certificate to the state and several agencies to prove that everything should be signed over to your name. And the state is just as likely to mess that up as get it right. It can take a year or more to settle *all* the financial and property aspects after a death. Watched the whole thing when my grandmother died. It's not easy to inherit property or money, and it's definitely not easy to settle all your dead relative's debts. And then, there are the taxes due the next year.
CM
Realistically, dealing with a family member's death, in the practical sense, is not an overnight process. Funerals are expensive, then, you have to send certified copies of the death certificate to the state and several agencies to prove that everything should be signed over to your name. And the state is just as likely to mess that up as get it right. It can take a year or more to settle *all* the financial and property aspects after a death. Watched the whole thing when my grandmother died. It's not easy to inherit property or money, and it's definitely not easy to settle all your dead relative's debts. And then, there are the taxes due the next year.
CM
Jul 23 2008 11:53 am #36LadyYashka
Apparently, Joyce had life insurance, but her hospital bills sucked up a lot of money (did she not have health insurance? I guess it's possible if she owned her own business, but not very responsible for a woman with a brain tumor and two children).
Even with health insurance those bills would have sucked up all of the money from Joyce's life insurance.
Even with health insurance those bills would have sucked up all of the money from Joyce's life insurance.
Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Jul 23 2008 04:12 pm #37Guest
Guest
I didn't get the impression that she had a choice. The cemetery scene in "Bargaining" pretty much demonstrates how badly they need Buffy back. It takes all six of them - plus the Buffybot - to replace one Slayer. And with the Buffybot destroyed, Buffy needed to make at least a regular appearance on patrol to keep the demons at bay. Plus, their slay-brigade lost two members when Giles and Tara left. Even if they'd wanted to, I don't think her friends could've taken over for her at that point
Hmm..."Bargaining" is an unfair scenario though. That aside, it's been an average night in Sunnydale. They've replaced Buffy patrol wise without the aide of a robot before. And Tara moved out of the house, sure, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't help with anything anymore. I'm not saying that she did (cause she clearly didn't), but it wasn't mandatory. And if something big, or semi big were to present itself again like in "Bargaining," Buffy was still there. I don't think she had to patrol nightly though if she wanted to. She usually did it solo anyway, and Spike could handle that. And yes, I'm fully aware of the team effort he was apart of in the beginning of s6, but he wasn't himself. Also, he would never need that much assistance with a few vamps.
Hmm..."Bargaining" is an unfair scenario though. That aside, it's been an average night in Sunnydale. They've replaced Buffy patrol wise without the aide of a robot before. And Tara moved out of the house, sure, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't help with anything anymore. I'm not saying that she did (cause she clearly didn't), but it wasn't mandatory. And if something big, or semi big were to present itself again like in "Bargaining," Buffy was still there. I don't think she had to patrol nightly though if she wanted to. She usually did it solo anyway, and Spike could handle that. And yes, I'm fully aware of the team effort he was apart of in the beginning of s6, but he wasn't himself. Also, he would never need that much assistance with a few vamps.
as much as I liked Chaotic the Scooby Patrol scene, you are right, Spike would not need that much help taking out fledges or normal vamps - it played unrealistic - even with trying to establish Willow as powerful witch in "control" mode -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 05 2008 05:08 pm #40Vampire_Wiccian
Raising a teen (who could have had a student job with parental consent, btw)
I just wanted to say to this.
Yes she probably could have had a student job but there was no way Buffy would ever allow it i mean we never saw dawn going out unless it was at school or staying with a friend. The staying with a friend thing only happened what twice? IMHO Buffy didn't let dawn have a social life yes in season 5 she was the key and she needed protecting but it's a new season and yes there are very scary things out there but Dawn needs her own life. She can't be wrapped in cotton wool forever i mean she was 15 and she wasn't allowed to have guy in her life? I know it ended up being a vampire and yes she should not have gone parking with someone she just met but we see it again in season 7 Dawn felt she had to lie about going on a date with RJ and what did Buffy do? She freaked out again. As for the outfit Dawn was wearing it wasn't nearly as bad as some of the outfits Buffy wore when she was her age or younger.
Okay rant is over now.
I think that what everyone failed to realize on the show was that in season 7, Dawn was the same age that Buffy was in Season 1. Which means, that Dawn could have dated Spike (and I'm not even going to go into how distrubed that makes me) and no one could really say anything, because Buffy was making out with Angel at this point in her life. Dawn grew up a lot during season 6, but she is still treated like a child, while Buffy and her friends were running around doing God knows what at the same age. When Buffy went to Hemery, you better believe she went parking with guys that she didn't know. Dawn had seen Justin at school, they knew of each other, its not like she just met to guy and with the exception of Spike and Angel most of the contact Dawn had with vampires were attack now, ask questions later. She was with those guys for hours and they hadn't made a wrong move towards them. He was cute, he was into her, she was into him, there probably isn't a teenager girl alive who wouldn't kiss him. She didn't know that he was a vampire, but she's not genetically wired to pick them out of a crowd and Buffy didn't know that Angel was a vampire after months of knowing him. Even after, apparently, falling in love with him. After she finds out there's that awkward moment in Angel...one episode after she's obsessed with Owen...I'm just not even going to get started on the Buffy/Angel dynmaic. Haven't liked it since I hit puberty and we'll just leave it with that dig.
I believe that a lot of Dawn's immaturity stemmed from the Scoobie's inability to see her as a young woman. She had a life that was just as tough as Buffy's. Sure, she didn't have to slay demons, the world wasn't resting on her shoulders, but she was never allowed to be a teenager. She was kidnapped several times, lived without her father, her mother, or her sister for months, watched her sister being completely depressed/detatched, losing all the people she was closest to (both Tara and Spike...as well as Buffy).
Anyways, I'm done. I just usually feel the need to defend Dawn.
Oct 07 2008 04:39 am #42Scarlet Ibis
I think that what everyone failed to realize on the show was that in season 7, Dawn was the same age that Buffy was in Season 1.
This is true. But when you're older...you can't help but seeing someone like that as forever 12. I treat my cousins and siblings who're younger than me the same way. Let me rephrase that--I think of them that way, but I'm not so clueless as to treat them like they're 12. I think that's the mistake the Scoobies made--they didn't realize she really wasn't 12, and insisted on babying her.
This is true. But when you're older...you can't help but seeing someone like that as forever 12. I treat my cousins and siblings who're younger than me the same way. Let me rephrase that--I think of them that way, but I'm not so clueless as to treat them like they're 12. I think that's the mistake the Scoobies made--they didn't realize she really wasn't 12, and insisted on babying her.
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