BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Joss... Lying to us?

Aug 02 2008 11:02 pm   #1Guest

I was having a discussion with a friend and figured I'd ask for some input.


According to Joss Whedon, he had this "grand plan" to bring Tara back.

For those not of you who are not aware of what happened:

Before the last season of BtVS was completed, Joss had been in negotiations with Amber and her agent for her to appear on the show. However, the negotiations ended with the only explaination being that Joss said it was a money issue... no comment from Amber on said the negotiation or why she refused to return to the show.

A year and a half later Joss told a con crowd that he had this grand plan to bring Tara back to life in Season 7. What gets me is that until this announcement, NOBODY else on the show, not the actors, not the producers, not even the other writers had heard a bloody thing about this would-be SIGNIFICANT plot twist.

Now here's a couple even lesser known facts:

1. Amber HAD been willing to come back as Tara but she just refused to return as Fake!Evil!Tara.

2. Amber was under an option with ME. This means that all they had to do was pick up that option and boom- Tara's back. Obviously, that didn't happen. Strange don't you think, that they never did that when Joss suppoesedly had this grand plan to bring Tara back all along...


I'm thinking that Joss' "grand plan" announcement was more like an attempt to deflect criticism for how badly he treated the much-loved character, Tara, while also trying to dodge blame for Season 7's ratings drop. "It's not my fault, I wanted to do this, not that."


On that same note, I'm thinking he did something like that to Buffy as well, maybe because he was annoyed when SMG wouldn't appear in the Angel episode. Between "Chosen" and "The Girl in Question" Buffy somehow degenerated to bed-candy for this "mysterious-but oh-so-wonderful" Latin playboy, just another dumb blonde in a never ending line of women to be "blessed" by this guy's latest slut. (Don't even get me started on that f'ing womanizer) A small consolidation is that the episode was written to include 'plausible deniability' so it wasn't absolutely certain that Buffy ended up so badly (Season 6 wasn't bad enough for them?). Much later, the comics came out: "Oh that was never really Buffy, despite all the reasons why Angel and Spike never realized it." Spike can track the woman like a bloodhound just by her lingering scent but can't realize why "her" apartment is saturated with someone else's scent and her scent is absent. Plausible denability only goes so far until it bacomes plot holes and retconning.

I'd love to know just which writer wanted what in TGIQ, especially after watching Firefly (Joss' completely independent writing) in which Joss glamourized being a whore and showed one of the most degrading "jobs" a woman can be forced to have as a "respectable" profession. Tell me something, when the h*ll did setting a price tag on the worth your body and then selling yourself as little more than a disposable hole to the richest @ssh0le suddenly turn into an appealing and desireable career choice?


Anyone, back to the point. What do you guys think about Joss' "I actually wanted to..."s and "That was never real..."s that he has been throwing to us outside the show itself?

-Tori

Aug 02 2008 11:45 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis
I can't speak on the Amber Benson season 7 kerfuffle...  But as for TGIQ--

I know that SMG was supposed to have been in the ep initially, but couldn't for whatever reason.  Ahem.  I think once they learned that plan A wasn't panning out, they tweaked the script, and made plan B.  Plan B was, in my opinion, an episode not supposed to be about Buffy at all, but about Angel and Spike's relationship instead.  You want to talk about vamps who have her scent on lock (especially Spike), and how could they miss it?  Think about when Angel's giving his description of Buffy--he says her eyes are blue, and Spike doesn't even blink.  SMG as Buffy wore sometimes green, but mostly hazel contacts.  I think that for the script to say "blue" was a purposeful action, and not the writer's having forgotten.  They were showing that Angel and Spike were forgetting about Buffy.  She was not a major issue to them. The only reason they showed up to her location at all was because they thought she was in trouble.  What the episode essentially shows us, IMHO, that both Angel and Spike moved on (from Buffy and her Scoobies, cause if she was really in danger, don't you think Willow, her BFF, a friggin' goddess could handle it or do a reveal if she were under a spell or something?), and didn't even know it.  In the end, they were (briefly) upset of losing the idea of her to a guy they really loathed.  But then they bounced back.

I love, love, LOVE that ep, btw.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 02 2008 11:49 pm   #3Eowyn315
Well, here's the story I've heard... you can judge for yourself whether you think Joss is making anything up.

Amber Benson was initially approached to appear as the First in "Conversations with Dead People," which she refused because she thought it would be upsetting for fans to see Tara return in an evil incarnation. They ended up using Cassie from "Help" to appear to Willow instead.

Then, Joss announced that he'd had a plan for "Chosen" in which Buffy, after defeating the First, was somehow granted a wish, and she used the wish to bring Tara back to life. Now, maybe if we knew all the details, he could sell it, but from that description, I'm really glad he didn't do that. The "wish" thing seems like a pretty contrived way of bringing a character back to life, and the whole thing would serve no purpose except to appease fans who were angry she'd died. The series was ending, so it wasn't like they'd get a chance to do anything with the character - Tara would just appear and then the episode would be over. Plus, considering the hell Buffy went through after her own resurrection, I can't imagine her using a wish to do that to someone else.

I have no idea if Amber Benson was approached about that, or why the idea was scrapped (my personal opinion, I think it was scrapped because it was a half-baked idea, and was pretty much just fan service rather than good storytelling).

As for Buffy's appearance in Angel season 5, of course TGIQ is a retcon. I don't know of anyone who's said that the girl in TGIQ wasn't meant to be Buffy at the time it was written. However, years later, Joss was given the option of continuing Buffy's story in the comics, and I think we all agree that "Buffy is the head of a slayer army" is a much more interesting story than "Buffy does the social scene in Rome and lives a normal life." There had to be some explanation to sort out that discrepancy, and I actually really like the "decoy" idea, because it gave us a great story for "The Chain" (issue #5) and I got a fanfic out of the Rome decoy. :)

There are plenty of fanwank explanations for why Angel and Spike didn't detect Buffy's scent (or lack of it), mostly of the cloaking spell/glamour variety. Joss doesn't ever give us an explanation for it, but of all the things from the comics that don't make sense, that one's pretty low on my list.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 02 2008 11:53 pm   #4Eowyn315
I know that SMG was supposed to have been in the ep initially, but couldn't for whatever reason.
I'm pretty sure the episode SMG was supposed to be in was the 100th ep, not TGIQ. But it didn't work out, and so they brought back Charisma instead and had Cordelia wake up from her coma in "You're Welcome."

See this interview with David Fury for details.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 03 2008 01:14 am   #5TammyDevil666
I heard that SMG wanted to be in the Angel finale, but Joss turned her down because he didn't want the ending to be all about Buffy.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Aug 03 2008 03:21 am   #6Guest
I heard that about the finale as well, and that Michelle Trachtenberg was the one suppose to be in TGIQ.
Aug 03 2008 04:31 am   #7Guest
I heard that about the finale as well, and that Michelle Trachtenberg was the one suppose to be in TGIQ.

I think the point of the topic is WHEN all these 'I heards' happened. 

For example, I have heard several times in the past couple of years that SMG and Michelle T. 'wanted' to appear in the last seaon of Angel. However, at the time Angel Season 5 was being filmed and shown, the rumor was that SMG was ASKED to appear in Angel and declined to reapprise her role as Buffy. Some people in various forums raised was quite a stink about her refusal while others praised the actress for making a clear break with the show and moving on to more 'serious' roles.

In both cases, with Amber Bensen and SMG, I think that the more contemporary claims hold more credence and the rumors and claims that don't arise until years after the everything is said and done are much less trustworthy.

I think Tori has a good point about Whedon's sudden out of the blue claim, if such a thing had been planned 'all along' then Whedon wouldn't have been the ONLY ONE to know about it. Despite what some people believe, Whedon didn't have complete control over the script. If he had really seriously planned to resurrect Tara, the other writers and producers would have known about it. The two points about Amber and her contract cast alot of doubt on an unsubstantiated claim made over a year after the show ended.
Aug 03 2008 05:37 am   #8Niamh
When they were filming TGiQ, SMG was in Japan filming.  According to her press people, she couldn't get back for a one day shoot, which was all Joss was going to guarantee -- and that would've thrown the Japanese shoot all off.   Frankly, I think that bit about Buffy was completely re-written after the network canceled the show.  The show was on hiatus, and TGiQ was filmed, but when it was canceled, Joss went back and refilmed parts of the episode.  In my humble opinion, that episode wasn't supposed to be about Buffy at all.  I honestly believe "the girl in question" all along was not Buffy -- but Fred. 

I also believe that Joss has consistently tried to "correct" mistakes after there's been a hue and cry about the stupidity of the writing.  He's not perfect, no one is, but sometimes I think he gets these half-baked ideas and believes they're wonderful, when in fact, the idea is crap.  Only the people working for him won't actually tell him the truth and by then, when the viewers have watched, re-watched and re-watched yet again, the viewers realize just how crappy and ridiculous some of those ideas were.  So after the viewers question Joss on it, he has to backtrack and spin doctor and it just makes even less sense than it did in the first place.  He should just be truthful and say "well, I tried it, thought it would work and now I realize it didn't.  I'm sorry."  Instead, he just piles on more crap and confuses the hell out of everyone. 

Don't get me wrong, Joss is a smart guy and he's had some really wonderful ideas -- but he should not ever be kept in charge of all those good ideas and he shouldn't be allowed to pick who is.  (Noxious as executive producer?)  At the very least he should have hired a continuity chief, someone who did nothing all day but keep track of where the previous stories left the characters.

As far as the Amber returning in season 7?  The most consistent story I've heard is that Amber nixed the idea of returning as the First, because she didn't want to compromise the character.  Joss doesn't like to be told no. . .  hence his conflicts with SMG and, no doubt, with a few other people.
Aug 03 2008 07:50 am   #9Eowyn315
I think the point of the topic is WHEN all these 'I heards' happened.
Well, the article I posted regarding Buffy's appearances is from September 2004.

The first reference to Joss bringing Tara back to life in "Chosen" that I could find is Wizard World Chicago Convention in August 2004, and he mentioned it again at Comic-Con 2007. ETA: Just found an interview with Joss from June 2003 where he talks about "Plan A was to bring Tara back."

Amber returning as the First Evil, I think there are interviews with Amber from 2003 stating her reason for not returning as not wanting to upset the fans (I couldn't get the clip to play, but it's discussed here). "A problem with negotiations" is also mentioned, which is where I think a lot of people extrapolated "money issues." In 2007, she mentions that she also had a scheduling conflict, and she took that as a sign she shouldn't do it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 03 2008 05:53 pm   #10Spikez_tart
Joss is hallucinating.  What was the point in bringing Tara back?  She never had a real story line (Mary Sue) so who needed more of that?  Of course, it would have been preferable to Kennedy.  He wasted a good character, IMHO.  Amber Benson probably noticed that she was not only being given the short end of the money stick, but once again given a stupid part. 

And, having Buffy bring back Tara on a wish?  Not likely after what she went through.  That's totally stupid, and so is the characterization of Spike in Angel S5 and Buffy's little walk on the wild side with that girl slayer.  It's like Joss forgot all the things his characters were supposed to have learned. 

Hated all of Angel S5.  Hated TGIQ the most maybe, except the part where the Italian woman pinches Spike's cheeks and tells him how handsome he is, then gives Angel that assinine jacket.  It's completely impossible to believe that Spike OR Angel would leave Rome without seeing Buffy.  Just as it is completely impossible to believe that Spike would forget the color of her eyes after obssessing over her for five years.  Please.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Aug 04 2008 05:16 pm   #11slaymesoftly
At the very least he should have hired a continuity chief, someone who did nothing all day but keep track of where the previous stories left the characters.

Can I get an "Amen!" ? LOL  But, then, what would we all have to wank about?  Think about it. Entire boards would go blank, LJ's would shrivel up, the forum would wither...

Thanks for the link, E.  That was an interesting interview. 

I think a lot of spinning goes on after a show ends. Everyone has his/her own axe to grind, wants his or her moment of "I told you so", and so forth.  As much fun as it is to read what the people involved have to say, I constantly remind myself not to swallow any of it whole. :)
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Aug 04 2008 11:37 pm   #12goldenusagi
> Hated all of Angel S5.  Hated TGIQ the most maybe

And here I thought I was the only one who didn't like TGIQ, LOL.
Aug 05 2008 04:26 am   #13Guest
I thought that anyone who liked the idea of Buffy as an independent woman hated the episode that portrayed her as a no more than playboy's latest conquest.
Aug 05 2008 04:34 am   #14Scarlet Ibis
I thought that anyone who liked the idea of Buffy as an independent woman hated the episode that portrayed her as a no more than playboy's latest conquest.
No more than hating the idea of her being an abuser.  Besides, it was Angel's show, not Buffy's, and therefore, not about her.

And come on--didn't anyone on here besides me like that ep?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 05 2008 05:23 am   #15Eowyn315
And come on--didn't anyone on here besides me like that ep?
*raises hand* I did. Of all the negative lights Buffy's been portrayed in (and there have been plenty), TGIQ bothers me very little, since, as Scarlet (and others upthread) have pointed out - it's not about Buffy.

Also, I'm reading the comics, so I say it's not really her anyway.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 05 2008 06:04 am   #16Guest
I liked it. Cracked me up.

CM
Aug 05 2008 06:19 am   #17Guest
I'd like to make a retraction, actually.  I did not in fact liker TGIQ--I effin' LOVED it :D

Good to know I wasn't the only one.  I thought s5 of Angel was one of the best seasons as a whole over any other show that I love.  I totally wanted more, and hated the stupid WB for keeping on a bunch of lame shows that should have been canceled, and used those budgets for Angel.
Aug 05 2008 06:19 am   #18Guest
Damn it--that was me.  Scarlet.
Aug 05 2008 06:22 am   #19Guest
*raises hand* I did. Of all the negative lights Buffy's been portrayed in (and there have been plenty), TGIQ bothers me very little, since, as Scarlet (and others upthread) have pointed out - it's not about Buffy.

At the time, I was pissed as hell at what they did to Buffy in that ep; first they demolish her character in season 6 and now that!? Talk about being cruel to a character!

...but since Joss retconned the whole thing, and made it so it wasn't really Buffy, I can now enjoy the ep at least a little- that Immortal guy still rubs me the wrong way though.

It's one of the few very times that I'm glad a writer retconned something, despite the plot holes and such it caused.

-SC
Aug 05 2008 07:20 am   #20dawnofme
I loved Angel S5.  TGIQ was hilarious.  There were so many great episodes in that season.  I still yearn for more!  I only began to like Angel as a character when he got his own show, but even then, much of it was boring.  That is until Spike showed up and drove Angel crazy.  LOL!  Though I have to admit, there were gems of fun in each season.

I watch S5 from start to finish every so often.  Of course, I always wanted Spike to take off and find Buffy, but I knew that it wasn't going to happen.  So I enjoyed what I did get and made the most of it. 
Aug 05 2008 01:29 pm   #21sosa lola
I much prefer the S8 retcon that it wasn't Buffy. Because there's no way the real Buffy would leave all the responsibilities of changing the world and awakening too many slayers and stirring the US goverment over the blow up of Sunnydale and go party in Rome. I mean, I get Buffy taking a break for three months or so, but it's almost a year when Spike and Angel went to Rome. Buffy won't take that long of a break.
Aug 05 2008 05:13 pm   #22nmcil
I also loved TGIQ - and I frankly was glad that Buffy was not used only as a sub-text for Angel-Spike history and their potential future - Plus with Andrew as the storyteller link  gives a nice connect to the "fantasy-decoy" used in  Buffy comic season. 

Bringing back Cordelia makes, IMO, much more sense than using the Buffy character - It was Cordelia that was an important part of AtS - not Buffy.  As already stated, TGIQ is about Angel and Spike.

I don't usually follow any of the actors interviews and rumors - don't really know what Amber Benson's reason were for not coming back - but she was not a big star, extremely popular with the Buffyverse Fans, but I don't think that an actress who is just starting to be really well known to a large audience would give up a role easily - especially one that would give her an opportunity to show what she could do with such a different face of Tara.   JUST MY OPINION.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 05 2008 06:30 pm   #23nmcil

I'm pretty sure the episode SMG was supposed to be in was the 100th ep, not TGIQ. But it didn't work out, and so they brought back Charisma instead and had Cordelia wake up from her coma in "You're Welcome." See this interview with David Fury for details.


Eowyn 315

Thanks Much for the  link - great interview

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 06 2008 03:46 am   #24Eowyn315
I don't think that an actress who is just starting to be really well known to a large audience would give up a role easily
I dunno... I'd say that about most actors, but Amber doesn't seem to be interested in becoming famous. She's taken a lot of roles in independent films (often ones she's written and directed as well), and seems more concerned with whether or not the role is interesting and challenging than whether she'll make money or get noticed for it. I don't think she'd have a problem at all turning down a mainstream role if she objected to it for some reason, so I can see her turning down a reappearance on Buffy if she didn't like the role.

The thing that kinda rubs me the wrong way is that, if the rumor about her refusal is true, she let fan opinion dictate whether or not a particular story got told. Personally, I think having the First appear as Tara would've been incredibly powerful, and way more interesting than some random chick who was in one episode (whom I don't think Willow even met). I'd rather they tell the best story they can, and not worry about whether it's going to upset a certain group of fans.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 06 2008 04:51 pm   #25Legen

tgiq...was freakin’ awesome. the last season of angel was great because you got to see way more of angel’s true character, instead of his “broody i'm so tormented“ self, because of spike. and while neither shows were about spike, i think he brought out the best and worse in every one he was around. i read a thread somewhere that was bashing joss and co. because spike always seemed to overtake the shows. but i don't think he ever overtook, it was just in his nature to always know just the right buttons to push on people, and if he didn't get it right the first time, try try try again.

Your heart will break, your tears will fall, but don't be suprised, if there is someone there, to catch you when you fall. Becuase you, yes you, are awesome.
Aug 19 2008 01:05 pm   #26Guest
I'd love to know just which writer wanted what in TGIQ, especially after watching Firefly (Joss' completely independent writing) in which Joss glamourized being a whore and showed one of the most degrading "jobs" a woman can be forced to have as a "respectable" profession. Tell me something, when the h*ll did setting a price tag on the worth your body and then selling yourself as little more than a disposable hole to the richest @ssh0le suddenly turn into an appealing and desireable career choice? 

That is a very narrow-minded way to look at it. Why suppose that just because we, in our time and culture, perceive it as degrading to be a prostitue that can never change? Have you ever considered that being an actress was more or less equal to being a prostitute not more than 150 years ago? Would you still call acting a "degrading job" for a woman?

Furthermore, I think one should be very aware of the fact that whatever profession you choose you will always be selling yourself. Whether you sell your body (e g masseur, worker, athlete) or mind (e g every kind of academic) is just a technicality in my opinion.

Finally, not every prostitute is "forced" into her/his job. There are persons who choose it freely and why should they not have that choise, isn't that what living in a free world is all about - it isn't as if anyone else suffers by it.

My admiration for Joss Whedon and his brilliance only grew with the fantastic notion of union-based prostitues, working as everyone else and demanding both pay and respect to match their accomplishments. But then I loved Firefly from beginning to end!
Aug 21 2008 05:44 am   #27Guest

You know the world has gone to crp when people compare prostitution to being a construction worker or even an acedemic postion like a teacher.

I guess I am "narrow-minded" to believe that sex should actually mean something.

it isn't as if anyone else suffers by it.

do you really believe that?

what about the girls' families, do you think they are proud of their child's choices and  don't worry about their child's health and well being?

what about the girls' friends, do they not worry?

what about unwanted children since no form of protection is one hundred percent effective? does dying before they have a chance to live or being born an unwanted child not count as suffering?

condoms aren't onehundred percent effective against STDs either so what about the people a prostitute may inadvertently pass an STD onto after being infected by a previous customer?

what about the families of the maeeried clients who's husbands and fathers step out on them?

get past the thin vineer and the world of prostitution is a very ugly world: you think countless girls get hooked on drugs cause they are so happy with their lives as whores?


Tori is right, Joss took a very dark, depressing, and often hazardous profession and made it look glamourous. That's not something to admire, Joss' ability to pull off a cross between Westerns and Sci-Fi is admirable but making prostitution one the most respected of occupations and never once showing the gritty truth behind the facade? I can think of several reactions I have to that, and admiration is certainly not one of them.

CJ

Aug 21 2008 06:10 am   #28Scarlet Ibis
Okay...hijacked thread.

Right.

I never watched "Firefly," but I will say this--we all have something called free will.  And if someone wants to sell their body, then that's their business.  And besides, better to be a whore than a ho bag (and by that I mean slut--at least whores are paid).  Also, I don't think there's an abundance of knocked up whores around--they can get shots as a form of contraceptive, take pills, hell, even get their tubes tied. 

what about the families of the maeeried clients who's husbands and fathers step out on them?
Um, you'll have to look to daddy about that.  It was his choice to step out on his wife for a sleazy booty call.  At least then, you know it's just sex as opposed to some real attachment/serious affair.

As for sex meaning something, by mere definition, it  means penetration by a penis, and therefore does not equate to "love" or meaning anything beyond sweat maybe, and hopefully orgasms.  Emotional intimacy does not mean sex.  However, it can enhance it.

Also, I would never compare prostitution to acting, or hell, even stripping.  It is what it is.  And sometimes, it is a desirable career choice to those who want big money quickly.  Unless they're only whoring for drug money, then they settle for a lower price.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 21 2008 01:35 pm   #29slaymesoftly
Not getting into this discussion any more than I have to, but I would like to point out that, at least in Serenity, Joss did show some of the down side of Inara's  (sp?)profession. When she had to bite her tongue and suffer in silence when Mal went to bed with her friend who was a former "Companion".  And, I'm pretty sure that one of the issues between Mal and Inara during the show was her chosen profession.  He may have made it look glamorous and like something admired in that time, but the emotional cost was always there, just below the surface.  Prostitutes aren't supposed to fall in love, and men who fall in love with one have some hard choices to make.   I think those aspects were brought out from time to time.


I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Aug 21 2008 07:28 pm   #30Eowyn315
Also, I don't think there's an abundance of knocked up whores around--they can get shots as a form of contraceptive, take pills, hell, even get their tubes tied.
Well, just to play devil's advocate, if you're a prostitute, you're probably doing it for the money... and you sure as hell don't get health insurance when you're paid under the table. So I don't think those options would necessarily be feasible for a woman who is relying on prostitution to make ends meet.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 21 2008 07:57 pm   #31Scarlet Ibis
Well, just to play devil's advocate, if you're a prostitute, you're probably doing it for the money... and you sure as hell don't get health insurance when you're paid under the table. So I don't think those options would necessarily be feasible for a woman who is relying on prostitution to make ends meet.
You just love being contrary, don't you? 
:P
Anyway, that's what Planned Parenthood is for--really cheap stuff.  But does the job.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 21 2008 09:35 pm   #32Guest

I hate to sound like my high school health teacher but the only completely certain way to avoid unwanted pregnancies is to either not have sex or either be medically sterilized. Getting a tubal ligation is a major surgery that costs quite a bit. 

Condoms aren't 100% effective, they are far less effective if the guy doesn't really care about practicing safe sex and then there's always the possibility that the condom breaks, has a hole in it, etc etc... plus being knocked up is probably the least of their concerns given all the STDs that are around nowadays.

Here endth the lesson.

Aug 21 2008 10:33 pm   #33Guest
You guys, I'm not talking about the difference between making love and having sex and what's wrong or right or ethical or anything. In Firefly they didn't show what Inara did as being right or commonplace or degrading of selling your body... they just had an idea to show how times and people have changed, and haven't, by having schools and guild protection for so-called Companions. I think it was supposed to underline that the time period and changes in culture existed, though people were still recognizable. Also, a big part of Inara's character was almost a therapist or someone who sees a person's wants and motivations and what they feel, which we see several times, and they could have done that while making her a common businesswoman, but this way also made some great spats between her and Mal and clouded the issue of them liking each other and working through it..

Back to the main topic of the thread, I watched the commentary on the Firefly episode where the ship is dead and stranded and there are a bunch of flashbacks, and they mention that Inara had a secret past we were going to learn about later. They discussed a few hints, like a make-up or jewelry  thing Inara wore on one scene, and why she was willing to be on a ship like Serenity instead of a luxury liner or set up on a planet, but then the people commenting said they wouldn't say any more in case Joss recycled his ideas for Inara's secret past in some other show or comic or movie.
Aug 22 2008 03:16 am   #34Guest

In Firefly they didn't show what Inara did as being right or commonplace

I'm staying out of the whole morality issue of this, but I'd like to point out that Inara and her fellow unionized prostitutes weren't commonplace among the lower classes, like the rest of the main cast and crew belonged to and dealt with. They might have seemed rare, but that was because "Companions" were among the most glamorus and elite of people, the most sought after and respected woman in the entire society. Inara's official reason for being able to stay on Serenity was that she brought them alot of "respectibility" that everyone else could never hope to achieve on their own. Companions were portrayed to be considered to be a class all of their own, a very high class in that society, in the episode The Train Job, people were falling over themselves at the mere sight of an illustrious Companion.

-----Mike

Aug 22 2008 10:10 am   #35Guest
Quite frankly I'm beginning to think that Joss has gone the way of Anne Rice and Laurel Hamilton, initially brilliant but ends up believing that they can do no wrong and stops policing themselves and thus gives the fans lower quality product.

This could explain Buffy season 8 if he has more input with it than he does with the Angel and Spike books because they do not seem to be coming from the same set of hands in any shape or form.

Ducks and hides
Aug 22 2008 10:37 am   #36Always_jbj
I can't comment on Buffy season 8 *refrains from rolling eyes* because I hate comics and don't have any intention of ever reading them...but I love Firefly and Serenity and don't see them as being a sign that Joss is putting out lesser quality. If anything I'd say they showed the complete opposite.

But each to their own...we all have different likes and dislikes, the world would be a pitifully boring place if we didn't.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Aug 22 2008 11:15 am   #37Guest
Firefly and Serenity are both excellent but I meant the possibility of Joss falling into that trap might have happened both because Buffy season 8 has happened a lot more recently (it's been a few years since Firefly and Serenity) and Buffy is the character is the one he's had for the longest (since he came up with her long before the movie) .Buffy being a part of his life for so long also might mean he's less willing to admit he's screwed up royally.
Aug 22 2008 12:38 pm   #38Always_jbj
Ah...well, as I say, I can't actually comment on the comics, as far as I'm concerned BtVS canon ends with Chosen. lol
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Aug 22 2008 09:08 pm   #39Guest
The season 8 comics have made a lot of people decide that. And I looked it up Serenity was out in 2005, which means it filmed in 2004 and was written even earlier , maybe even as early as while Firefly was still on the air. Which unfortunately is plenty of time for someone to lose thier creative path.

Aug 22 2008 10:44 pm   #40Scarlet Ibis
I'm going to have to concur that Joss is screwing up royally with his story lines as of late.  I was reading the Buffy comics, but I couldn't take it anymore.  It is pure crap, IMHO.  I hope he stays far away from the Angel comics, cause they're really pretty good.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 23 2008 01:26 am   #41Guest
If he starts messing with the Angel and Spike comics then I say we stage an intervention.Maybe get a few dominatrixes to help and have him saying yes to what we tell him to write.

Show him examples of good storytelling (plenty of good examples in the archives) and ask him if she remembers when the Buffyverse storyline wasn't a train wreck.
Aug 23 2008 01:40 am   #42nmcil
I am really liking the Angel After the Fall much better  than Buffy Season 8 - AtF seems like a continuation of the TV series and the stories of where all the characters ended up after the alley scene finale.  Perhaps the Angel Comic Series is an easier extension to create since it has such a definite storyline to continue with.   The Buffy comic season does not seem. IMVHO, to have a strong focus -  Feels like a story arc just starts up and then before any explanations of elements or characters is explored, another story starts up.   I must be really missing the "how to read comics"  - still trying to understand why Xander and Drac ended up together in the comic series.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 23 2008 05:08 am   #43Guest

I believe that the Xander and Drac thing started in a graphic novel (I can't remember the name ) that was wildly AU. Unfortunately in keeping with the train wreck of season 8 they decided to make it canon.

And really calling it season 8 is completely wrong. It should be at least season 9 since season 8 would have run during the same time as Angel season 5. Apparently though sometime during the ACTUAL season 8 the Scoobies lost thier minds and thier morals.

Buffy's personality really doesn't lend itself to being a leader of an army. She has a tendancy to abuse her power(see season 6) and should not have been allowed to lead any more people than the ones that were in her house in season 7 and even then only for a brief period of time (she was more qualified than Faith) . Her best system was with a partner she was in synch with (Spike) and the Scoobies as research and support with the occassional help in fighting with all of them coming together as a team when the Big Bad of the season popped up.

Aug 23 2008 08:31 pm   #44nmcil
I believe that the Xander and Drac thing started in a graphic novel (I can't remember the name ) that was wildly AU. Unfortunately in keeping with the train wreck of season 8 they decided to make it canon.

Thanks for the info - I sure wish that this Buffy Comic Season would get back to the original idea  of Twilight Organization or start to really focus on the problems that came out from the turning of all the Potentials into Slayers - What made the series so great and interesting was the compelling story lines - strong focus on  fundamentals themes with the majority of episodes committed to an examination of the season arc.  I know that the comic book format must have a different approach to telling a story - but I still think that a compelling story has to be part of the project, especially with the audience that followed The Buffyverse and were so devoted to the series and all the great characters.  Thus far, I am not getting much of that from the comic season - still, I will continue to read and hope. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 25 2008 12:01 am   #45Guest
Sorry to keep changing the subject but I can't let these "arguments" pass. 

do you really believe that? what about the girls' families, do you think they are proud of their child's choices and  don't worry about their child's health and well being?
Again, in our time and culture, sure. But then again, here in Sweden at least parents generally aren't too proud if their kids end up washing dishes or driving a garbage truck. Time to start moralising about all the chosen careers that parents aren't proud of? And then we're still stuck with the fact that that has changed continually during our history and varies greatly even today between different cultures.

what about the girls' friends, do they not worry? 
So, working as a miner is also out of the question i guess? Dangerous stuff that.

what about unwanted children since no form of protection is one hundred percent effective? does dying before they have a chance to live or being born an unwanted child not count as suffering? 
Hmm, if the girl in question was never impregnated at all (you know because of all the lack of intercourse with men in exchange for money) exactly how would that change the "dying before they have a chance to live"  for all those poor not-to-be-born-children? And, as far as I know, unwanted children come in abundance even without involving prostitution.

condoms aren't onehundred percent effective against STDs either so what about the people a prostitute may inadvertently pass an STD onto after being infected by a previous customer? 
Dear me! First of all, in a society where being a prostitute was just as morally uninteresting as being lets say a clerk, prostitutes would of course have a structure to protect themselves. A union, for starters, along with a number of regultaions I'd say - heath check-ups and possibly some sort of certificate (like a taxi driver). Making sure that you go to a prostitute that has a valid certificate would be in the customers interest. Of course nothing is fool proof, test results can be wrong or too late for that matter. But I'd say it's up to the customer to decide whether or not it is worth the risk of a combined condom breaking/test failure/catching a cronic STD mishap. Much as it is when you go sky diving, isn't it? 

what about the families of the maeeried clients who's husbands and fathers step out on them? get past the thin vineer and the world of prostitution is a very ugly world: you think countless girls get hooked on drugs cause they are so happy with their lives as whores?
The thing about lousy fathers has already been answered so I won't bother with that. Regading the rest; yes, the world of prostitution is very ugly but the question is why. I'm trying to say that refering to the horribleness of having sex without love but with money could be a bit too easy of an explanation. I'm trying to say that maybe its more a question of context. If we weren't so determined to think it a bad thing then maybe it wouldn't be. After all, that has been the case with lots of other occupations. Let me know what career woulddn't make people miserable if everyone they loved judged them and all of society despised them. Try being a doctor in that context, I dare you.

And I do think most of the contemporary prostitutes actually start by doing drugs and then turn to selling themselves in order to finance the drug abuse (since it's one of the few things you can still do to some extent (probably not excel at though) even when you're doped).

In conclusion, I just want to say that you would have to eliminate an awful lot of careers, not to mention hobbies, if you're really serious with these arguments.

Aug 25 2008 12:52 am   #46Eowyn315
In conclusion, I just want to say that you would have to eliminate an awful lot of careers, not to mention hobbies, if you're really serious with these arguments.
I'm assuming we're talking about real prostitution now, rather than "companions" in Firefly? Because if so, I can see one major difference between prostitution and the other careers and hobbies you mentioned. Prostitution and its related activities are illegal in a lot of countries. So yeah, maybe your parents wouldn't be proud if you drove a garbage truck, but at least there's no chance that your profession would get you arrested.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 25 2008 10:48 am   #47Guest
A big difference with Season 8 vs. the show, is that Joss isn't sitting in a story room hammering out episodes with a team. He either writes himself, or gives one or a section to someone else, and then approves the product before it's printed. There's no one actively reminding the team of writers about continuity, or arguing that a character wouldn't do that. And from all I've been able to gather, Joss didn't watch his show before deciding to pick up the pen and work on Season 8. (It shows!)

Canon is, to me, also, what was shown on screen for both shows, though AtS comics are hanging closer to the show. Still not the same without the original team, to me, though, so I'm not reading those, either. Heh, I was telling my boyfriend about stuff that's been done in Season 8 so far, and he starts going "Stop! Stop! No more! I might puke." :D Didn't want to hear anymore of what he considers a "bastardization of the show".
It's like really bad fanfic.

CM
Aug 25 2008 11:34 am   #48Guest
D Didn't want to hear anymore of what he considers a "bastardization of the show". It's like really bad fanfic.

Unfortunately it's really bad fanfic that people are paying for. Many of them are continuing to read because they have hope that it will all make sense. Others probably because they don't want to give up after shelling out what they've already paid.

Personally, I'd rather have the good fanfic that many authors are writing. Not only is it free, but if there's nausea involved , it's because of the hurt part of a hurt/comfort fic.


Aug 25 2008 06:33 pm   #49FetchingMadScientist
'd rather have the good fanfic that many authors are writing. Not only is it free, but if there's nausea involved , it's because of the hurt part of a hurt/comfort fic.

Can I get an Amen on that one?...okay, I'll say it.  Amen!
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Aug 25 2008 08:50 pm   #50Scarlet Ibis
<----is selling her s8 Buffy comics #1-15 on ebay, and is trying to ignore the whole thing.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 25 2008 11:22 pm   #51Guest
<----is selling her s8 Buffy comics #1-15 on ebay, and is trying to ignore the whole thing.

Good luck.Hopefully you'll find several people with plenty of money to spend(to drive the price up) who haven't heard about the plot or who collect just for the sake of collecting.
Aug 25 2008 11:26 pm   #52Scarlet Ibis
Actually, I'm starting to suspect that I just wasted another dollar by posting on ebay.  There are a few others trying to sell, and methinks I'll just be stuck with the damn things :(
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 26 2008 02:47 am   #53Guest
I hope you didn't put it up as free shipping because if just one person bids you're really gonna get hosed.
Aug 26 2008 02:50 am   #54Guest
Come to think of it maybe you should check the help section to see if canceling the listing will get your fee refunded.
Aug 26 2008 06:15 pm   #55nmcil
The treatment of "Companions" and "the oldest profession" is very interesting - on one side we have the use of the human body for sexual acts, treated as a very high status profession within the higher status levels of society and we also have the treatment of contemporary and old style "whores" - But behind both faces of the profession, the males used in the actual sexyal scenes with Innara do not really respect the woman - she is still an object for purchase and the poor women in the "whores" episode are not only objects for sex but also objects and women subject to physical abuse and without legal relevance.   Mal's connection with Inara is the most interesting - he loathes her profession but respects and loves the woman.  His lines from "The Shindig" are powerful and for me the most compelling - the idea that Atherton does not even see Inara, but only his purchase object to display and own and play with is what, IMVHO, is the of the important themes regarding The Companions and women as sex objects.  It's not the profession that is wrong or dirty - it's how the people involved define the women.  The Power Elite female government official has only respect and engages with Inara for a wonderful and much needed pleasurable experience while Atherton sees her as property only.  When Inara is seen as the beautiful and strong woman there is good that comes from the encounter - when she is seen only as sexual property there is emotional pain or bad results. 

The Companions at their highest level, in my perspective, are more a metaphor the sexual acts and human sexuality beyond all the "dirty" and "sinful" and other corruptions of sexuality and definitions that humans have applied to one of the most primal and fundamental needs of their existence. 

Both Buffy and Angel used sexuality to sell their product - Spike and all those sheets draped so judiciously and Cordelia with that gray blouse almost completely unbuttoned were nothing but sexual eye-candy.  I personally found both offensive not because I am a sexual prude, but because the characters were so much more than sexual objects.  Many viewers would totally disagree with me, but both these examples are "easy sex sell" and nothing more.  Sexual Acts like in "Wrecked" and "Smashed" have a purpose and powerful use as part of the story - Cordelia in that bikini being verbally abuse (sorry I can't remember the episode title from AtS) has meaning - Willow and Tara in their wonderful kissing scenes are beautiful examples of humans experiencing love and sexual pleasure, Cordelia in that gray blouse of "You're Welcome" in my opinion  is just plain old sexual objectification.

I still want to see the day when woman or men don't ever have to sell their bodies to make money this way unless that is really what they want to do, not something that they have to do.  If a person chooses to use their bodies as a product for the exchange of sexual services for payment and if that choice is made without the imposition from dire financial stress, why should there be a "moral judgement" placed on that life style?  At one point dancers and actors were considered morally deficient - today actors are some of the most admired people in our society, same for dancers.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 26 2008 10:13 pm   #56Guest
God help me for adding fuel to the fire...

No one here has mentioned the very, VERY obvious correlation, in light of the heavy Asian influence in the culture portrayed on Firefly, between companions and Geishas.  The training from a very early age, the refined and high-class skill set, the social value placed on the women; it's all basically the same.  And from history, we know that Geishas were most often companions in the platonic sense, rather than the sexual.  Innara is fully capable of being good company without getting nekkid.  There is also something to be said for Mal representing the way Westerners look down on and misinterpret Eastern culture through ignorance.

And that is all I'm saying.
Aug 26 2008 10:45 pm   #57sosa lola
I didn't know you guys hated S8 so much. I'm actually enjoying it a lot to the point that my Spuffy fic is set in S8 :)
Aug 26 2008 10:49 pm   #58Guest
I find that diesel is better to use on open flames :)

There is also something to be said for Mal representing the way Westerners look down on and misinterpret Eastern culture through ignorance.

What was the misinterpretation in calling her a whore? Although Inara may have been able to not sleep with, at least some. of her clients, but the fact was that she did exchange sexual favors for cash, last time I checked that was the definition of "prostitution." The only thing Mal did was refuse to allow her to hide behind all the glamour and the hype of being a quote, unquote Companion. Different words, same job: Inara just added a lot more depth to the simple screw 'em and leave 'em that it the basic job definition of prostitution. Remember when Inara is first ever seen on the show: you know, the one where she is underneath one of clients?  That was such a nice introduction. 

Don't get me wrong; I find the uniqueness of Eastern cultures and traditions extremely fascinating but they weren't that great in the whole idea of gender equality. If you think way back whenever, the basic premise of BtVS was "girl power." To see the writer of such a show take a turn like he did in Firefly rubbed a lot of people the wrong way: I certainly wasn't expecting the most "respectable" and "socially elite" woman on the show to be a glorified prostitute, her initial introduction leaves no doubt in mind mind about the details of her job. There was a great facade, but the truth behind her job was no different than regular prostitutes: the guys wanted to f*ck her and she did so in exchange for their money. Everything else was just niceties to make it more "civilized" for the "respectable" higher classes.

Nicole
Aug 27 2008 02:11 am   #59goldenusagi
He either writes [the comics] himself, or gives one or a section to someone else, and then approves the product before it's printed. There's no one actively reminding the team of writers about continuity, or arguing that a character wouldn't do that.
They had someone doing that on the show, LOL?  Could have fooled me.  :)
Aug 27 2008 04:38 am   #60Guest
I'm assuming we're talking about real prostitution now, rather than "companions" in Firefly? Because if so, I can see one major difference between prostitution and the other careers and hobbies you mentioned. Prostitution and its related activities are illegal in a lot of countries. So yeah, maybe your parents wouldn't be proud if you drove a garbage truck, but at least there's no chance that your profession would get you arrested. 

The fact that something is illegal is in no way equivalent to it being wrong or bad, other than that is was thought so at the time when the law in question was written. A lot of very interesting things have been forbidden trough the years and changed with the changes in society. Some people stand on the barricades and risk their own hide, fighting for what they believe in, and while these are considered bad seeds in their own time history views many of them as heroes. Others just follow, but as soon as the followers outnumber the old school the tide has changed and so will the law and the moral scales - that is the very essence of democracy after all. And as you pointed out yourself, prostitution is illegal in a lot of coutries, i e not in every country. So it stands to reason that it doesn't have to be illegal. 

 Nicole: The misinterpretation was of course not Mal calling her a whore but rather what you put into the meaning of the word. He said it to insult her, of course, but you can insult any profession you want. A doctor can be a quack and a lawyer can be all kind of horrible things - that doesn't mean that these aren't two of the most highly thought of professions of today, does it? I think you have completely misunderstood Inara's job. I don't think it was ever the intention to make her "a glorified prostitute", but rather to make prostitution into a fully accepted and natural part of society. Then you will of course have differently skilled people working as prostitutes, as you have in any profession. Some hair dressers e g excel at their profession and are only available for the stars and richest of the rich, while others cut your hair and mine.

The trouble with every anti-legal-prostitution opinionated person that has posted here so far is that you really don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that one might actually see the entire occurence differently than you choose to do. You seem to think that your view has some kind of absolute truth attached to it. But there is no absoluteness about humanity. Some of our very first civilazations divided people into masters and slaves, and this was considered the natural order of things in large parts of the world for thousands of years. Still (I assume) everyone here lives quite happily being the equal of all around you, no? So, if this tremendous shift in our society has taken place in just a couple of hundred years, why is the thought of us seeing prostitution and sex differently (and that actually working out) so very strange?

By the way, there is an awful lot of talk about "objectifying women" and "poor girls" - why is everyone only concerened with female prostitutes? Now that is objectifying women to me.
Aug 27 2008 04:47 am   #61Guest
I didn't know you guys hated S8 so much. I'm actually enjoying it a lot to the point that my Spuffy fic is set in S8 :)

You find a way to make things right and you'll make a lot of Spuffy fans happy.
Aug 27 2008 05:18 am   #62Niamh
He either writes [the comics] himself, or gives one or a section to someone else, and then approves the product before it's printed. There's no one actively reminding the team of writers about continuity, or arguing that a character wouldn't do that. They had someone doing that on the show, LOL? Could have fooled me. :)

Me too.  Honestly, half the time I thought they were all stoned (which makes Spike's comment in Weight of the World -- or was it Spiral? all the funnier).  Truthfully, I think Joss threw ideas in a hat and then whoever drew the short straw had to come up with a story/plot.  The disaster that was season 6 (save for the nekkid Spike moments) just highlighted how much of a genius (HUSH) Joss really could be when he put his mind to it.  Season seven -- honestly, if you knew at the start of something like that, that it would be the last season, why on earth would you add in an entire cast of characters without tying up everyone's storylines?  Or at least giving the main characters something that resembled an ending.  The only thing I can think of for that is that Joss had already green-lighted fanfic, and he was planning on letting everyone rewrite things to suit their own fantasies.  Which, when you think about it, is kind of lazy.  Great for the fanfic writers, but lazy as a director and artist.
Aug 27 2008 10:00 am   #63Guest
Amen to that.

At the most he should have brought back Faith and Andrew not all of those unecessary new characters.

Thay should have explored all the damage the core Scoobies (Buffy,Willow and Xander) did to thier significant others.

Not to mention the fantastic compare and contrast they could have done with Willow and Spike.Spike only attempts sexual assault as a means of getting to Buffy (since the only way should would acknowledge him was sexually) and only after months of abuse .He also stopped when she threw him off and found a way to punish himself.Spike also helped save the world before season 6 while Willow once tried to end it.

Willow on the other hand , mentally assaulted a woman who had had her mind messed with by bother her family and Glory and sucessfully sexually assaulted her by taking away her consent (in instances where she might not have slept with Willow after an argument if it was erased from her mind).She also expressed no guilt over this at all and even after going so as to attempt to destroy the world she showed no indication that she blamed herself instead of the magic.After getting back into Sunnydale she stood in the mess of Anya's shop and ignored her attempts to bring the destruction to Wilow's attention.

It could have been a true season of growing up , taking responsibility for your actions and a fitting finale for the series.

Instead we got Buffy humping jailbait because of a magic jacket, Xander once again being a demon magnet, The obvious Slayer related Oedipal complex principal , Buffy getting kicked out her own house , no one noticing that that made her an easy target for the bad guys and her practically begging them to love her after being proven right and them not apoligizing , Giles threatening a Bringer into telling the truth and it lying (gee, maybe it was because it was the minion of a creature out to destroy the world and therfore not afraid of death!),waiting until the last minute to activate the potentials when it could have been done the day before and had them get used to it a little or at least before they opened the Hellmouth!Plus the humdinger-the Bangel reunion.,

Buffy asks Spike if it had to mean anything after cornering Spike into admitting what thier night together meant to him.She then kisses Angel after not having seen him for years (Angel of course shows no sign of all the drama going on with Cordelia and his son .He could have least looked worn out). and even though she calls him on his childish behavior , she also holds out the promise of a future with him while denying one with Spike.
She sends Angel away to start a second front that wouldn't do any good at all if Sunnydale was overrun especially considering that they would have to have the area surrounded to keep the demons from getting far. LA was too far to do that. It sounded like a crummy excuse meant to keep Angel from wearing the lethal amulet .It makes Buffy look like the type of person who would send away one person(who had tried to end the world once and who really screwed her up) and choose another (who loved her and did right by her by protecting her family and friends while she was dead)) to die in his place. Plus ther's her wait until he's burning to death admission of love. No wonder he didn't believe her considering her behavior.
 
If the No You don't and Spike's lack of belief was so that he could be on Angel and didn't go to her because he thought she was just saying it they still could have done that  and made us think better of Buffy by having her say I Love you to Spike while he was asleep where he didn't hear it.That way Spike would still stay on Angel, and Buffy doesn't look so awful , she just looks like someone who lacks courage on a personal level to say it to his face especially after the way she treated him. That way we would have known that she had admitted it to herself.


The list of season seven screwups is probably unfinished but there were so many it was hard to keep track.

ladycat713
Aug 27 2008 10:19 am   #64Scarlet Ibis
Ditto to all that ladycat said.  Damn insightful, and well said.  The only thing I disagree with was Angel's demeanor.  I stand by my opinion that him being around Buffy is like slipping on an old shoe to the point where everything else falls away.  I mean think of it--he doesn't think of her when they're not together, does he?  Unless she comes up somehow like the Immortal, he just had a guy watching her, one of his lackey's to shadow her to make sure she was "okay" or whatever, doing his stalking for him, as Spike pointed out, and pretty much doesn't give her a second thought.

Adding to the s7 list of screw ups, how about the fact that the Ubervamps suddenly become so easy to defeat, when it took Buffy several tries at first to just defeat the one?  Or what about forcing this demonic power upon a bunch of girls, when she herself at first didn't want it, and said that it made her feel disconnected and inferior?  Why sentence and condemn others to that?  To essentially being freaks?  A large group of freaks, sure, but freaks all the same.  What, there was like a thousand of them?  I'll be generous and say ten thousand--still doesn't compare to a world with like six billion people in it.  Any government could gun them all down out of fear or experiment if they wanted to. 

Or hey, instead of sending down a bunch of girls to fight these uber vamps (who yeah, are more easy to fight for some reason, but still) not only before you give them a power boost, but hey, why not use weapons of today first like what was done in the past?  Sunnydale had been evacuated, and I'm sure that included the army base.  Why not raid it, as was done before, and pick up some nifty hand grenades, toss those bitches down into the Hellmouth, and literally light a fire under their ass, setting them all aflame, and therefore avoiding what was the dumbest and most unstrategic battle ever, losing all kinds of people and friends (and what was said, but not really shown, IMHO) and loved ones? 

In some respects, I find season four better, even though I kinda hate season four...But as for episode ratio to the one's I really like from both respective season, I think s7 would be the loser.  Some good random moments, a few good eps, but yes...It could have been better.  If left in the hands of some choice brilliant fan fic writers, I wonder sometimes what could have been achieved for canon, as opposed to just speculation...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 27 2008 12:06 pm   #65nmcil

Second Ditto on all the Season Seven screw ups.  Something as simple as Buffy having her butt kicked so easily by Uber Vamps and then having all those potentials being able to attack them before the spell plus the normal humans who should never have been able to fight them - huge plot mistake - Anya even gives a lecture about how difficult it would be to fight the Uber Vamps.

While I loved the series and just accepted the bad with all the great,  one of the things that I really hated was allowing all their main characters to never really have to own up to their horrible conduct or to face any bad consequences from those actions.  Everyone of the Scoobies caused death and great pain to their loved ones without having suffered any harsh consequences from their choices.   Of course the series was not meant to reflect the same order of our real world and the dramatic perspective and needs often require diversion from our real world logic, but this "no consequences from your acts" was a real weakness in the series. I don't mean to suggest that any "moral preaching" would have been useful, but at least some part of the series could have been used to examine the potential consequences.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 27 2008 01:08 pm   #66Guest
While I loved the series and just accepted the bad with all the great, one of the things that I really hated was allowing all their main characters to never really have to own up to their horrible conduct or to face any bad consequences from those actions.

but this "no consequences from your acts" was a real weakness in the series.

That always really pi**ed me off. It seemed like whenever a main character did something morally deplorable, it was erased by the very next episode unless that act directly had something to with advancing the plot.

For example: Buffy is repeated harped on for not immediately telling her friends about Angel's return from hell but Xander gets away scot free for trying to rape Buffy in The Pack, he even had Giles help cover for him by agreeing not to tell them that his claim of memory loss was pure cr**

Giles bi*ching to Buffy about how Angelus tortured him loses alot of credance coming from the man who helped defend her would-be rapist's honor (and here I thought watchers were supposed to help their Slayers, not those who tried to rape their Slayers but then again, there's the whole Crucimentum thing...)
Aug 27 2008 02:00 pm   #67sosa lola
For example: Buffy is repeated harped on for not immediately telling her friends about Angel's return from hell but Xander gets away scot free for trying to rape Buffy in The Pack, he even had Giles help cover for him by agreeing not to tell them that his claim of memory loss was pure cr**

If you compared it with Xander not getting yelled at for his spell in Once More with Feeling, I'd agree with you. But in The Pack, Xander was possessed by a hyena. He wasn't in control of his actions. If he did it while un-possessed, then it'll be his fault, but it wasn't. It's really unfair how fans blame him for something he clearly was innocent of. It's like blaming Jenny for trying to kill them while possessed in S2.
Aug 27 2008 02:12 pm   #68Niamh
For a group of people who held themselves morally superior to just about everyone -- they shouldn't have been living in such glass houses.

Human beings are flawed, and yeah, sometimes the worst in the bunch don't pay for their actions, but is that the kind of message you want to send to people?  During the worst of season six -- when Buffy was beating the crap out of Spike the only episode that garnered the attention of the sponsors was Doublemeat Palace.  WTF?  McDonalds and Burger King objected to that?  Gimme a break.  The main character is engaging in domestic abuse during at least 3 episodes, and they can only object to the idea that DMP was bad?  Just how skewed are people? 

Did Joss believe for one second that domestic abuse was okay?  Even if the participants are supernatural in origin, that doesn't make it okay for one second.  How many teenaged girls (and guys) watched the show and didn't bat an eye?  How many adults?  That's twisted beyond belief.  And the fact that Ms. Noxon didn't think twice about it?  Just how f*cked up are these people?

Xander attempted to rape Buffy.
Giles raped her of her powers and her autonomy.
Willow mind raped and physically abused her obviously fragile girlfriend.
Angel raped Buffy's memories and later did the same to his AI team.
Spike attempted . . . and yet he's the only one who had it all thrown in his face.

Hypocrites.  The Scoobies were nothing more than hypocrites.
Aug 27 2008 02:50 pm   #69FetchingMadScientist
... Xander was possessed by a hyena. He wasn't in control of his actions.

Okay...here comes the spectre of Angel/Angelus once again.  If we by the whole, "It wasn't my fault because I was... evil/possessed by an evil thing/ had no soul." then yeah, Xander's off the hook...But then, so is Angelus...Oh wait, he had a soul when he bedded, and raped a sixteen year old!  He was over four hundred years old and should have known better.  The fact that he was "Angel" at the time, makes it worse.  If Xander gets off the hook, so does Spike.  After all, Spike didn't have a soul at the time, and even he knew it was wrong.  That's why he got his soul!

One set of morals for "us" and another for "them" doesn't work.  It's just wrong.
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Aug 27 2008 03:28 pm   #70goldenusagi
Or what about forcing this demonic power upon a bunch of girls, when she herself at first didn't want it, and said that it made her feel disconnected and inferior? Why sentence and condemn others to that? To essentially being freaks?

Yeah.  And if it had just been the girls there (who it seemed more or less consented to this plan) maybe it would have been more okay.  But when it turned out (Joss decided) that there would be 1800 of them, it makes it less okay.  Surely there's some bad Slayers in there somewhere.  Giving power out like that has consequences.  Besides which, if you follow the comics (I don't, but then, I ignore almost everything after a point in season 6), season 7 makes even less sense.  The First is killing EVERY Potential, and the ones in Sunnydale are the last ones left, and if those girls die, the Slayer line will be gone forever......  Except for the other 1,780 girls around the planet, apparently.
Aug 27 2008 03:37 pm   #71sosa lola
No one said Souled Spike is to be blamed for the rape. I said no such thing. As I recall, Buffy never threw it in Spike's face once she learned about the soul. Xander and Dawn needed time to adjust. And as I remember they stopped complaining about Spike after Him. It's only a matter of time, because the characters were used to Spike being soulless. He was always soulless and they can't just switch their feelings in a second.

Xander and Angel are a bit different. The characters knew them as good guys. Then they changed, Xander because he was possessed and Angel because he lost a soul. Xander was possessed for two days, and when the characters worked out that it wasn't him, whatever he did wasn't a big deal because it wasn't him. Angel, sadly, was soulless for a longer period than Xander and did more damage than Xander. It was hard to accept that he was back and he was the good!Angel they knew at first but then they were able to take him back.

With Spike, they knew him as soulless and dangerous and evil. And slowly he worked his way into their group. The rape thing felt like the last straw, they felt stupid because they trusted him. But then Spike did the unthinkable and got himself a soul. Like with Angel, the characters needed time to accept him into the group and eventually they did.

So where's the problem?

Xander attempted to rape Buffy.

Hyena-possessed-Xander did. Not regular conscious Xander.

Giles raped her of her powers and her autonomy.

He did it to follow the method that every slayer should experience at her 18th birthday party, and eventually he helped save Buffy which got him fired from his job.

Willow mind raped and physically abused her obviously fragile girlfriend.

And Tara left her. So she got what she deserved.

Angel raped Buffy's memories and later did the same to his AI team.

I don't remember the episode correctly, but didn't the PTB tell Angel that if he wanted to be a vampire again they'd erase everything, even the memories of everybody except his own. So it wasn't really Angel's fault.

Spike attempted . . . and yet he's the only one who had it all thrown in his face.

By no one but Xander and Dawn, who eventually loosened up after they learned about the soul. Their treatment of him was no worse than Xander and Faith who marched to kill Angel.
Aug 27 2008 06:18 pm   #72Scarlet Ibis
Oh wait, he had a soul when he bedded, and raped a sixteen year old! He was over four hundred years old and should have known better.
Um...Angel did not rape Buffy.  She was seventeen at the time, so it wasn't even statutory.  Also, on a maturity level, he wasn't much higher than her, if at all at that time.  He didn't really "grow up" till he left Sunnydale.

No one said Souled Spike is to be blamed for the rape.

As for possessed! Xander and soulless! Spike on attempted rape, neither is guilty.  Xander did not have control of his regular self (whereas with Angel, technically his regular self is Angelus).  And Spike didn't have control of himself either.  I've said this before, but the word "attempt" has to go with intent, and it was not his intent to rape her.  How do you properly gage the reaction of somone who'd been telling you "no" for five months, kicked you around, and then forced herself on you? Not to mention that he was half gone in the head by that point anyway.

Also, if Xander is to be blamed for anything, it should be for the deaths of people during OMWF.  I agree with Sosa that it's like comparing Jenny in the Egyon ep.

The rape thing felt like the last straw, they felt stupid because they trusted him.
Again, it wasn't rape, but they didn't trust him then, either.  Not since "As You Were."  They were all looking at him like he'd do something dastardly and evil, and then, he sleeps with Anya, which was the ultimate betrayal somehow, because neither one of them were actually dating Xander or Buffy who were the dumpers and not the dumpees...So yeah, it was the betrayal that wasn't, yet they both (Spike and Anya) got shit dumped all over them.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 27 2008 07:47 pm   #73Eowyn315
Wow, this thread has gone off on a number of different tangents since I last checked in.

Season seven -- honestly, if you knew at the start of something like that, that it would be the last season, why on earth would you add in an entire cast of characters without tying up everyone's storylines?
Because Joss knew he wanted to end with empowering all the Slayers, and that only has an emotional impact if we know some Potentials. Yes, we cheer for the girl who stops her abuser, and the little girl playing softball is cute, but to really get the thrust of what's happening, Buffy had to have an army around her, and we had to see them all become empowered. It would've been better if he'd added Potential characters that we cared about and wanted to spend half a season watching, but that's a different argument.

I think the problem here is that you wanted to watch a different show than Joss was writing. Joss clearly had his theme - "It's about power," it's only said about twelve times - and that had very little to do with the Scoobies. If you think he should've chosen a different theme for the final season that tied up the Scoobies' arcs, that's one thing, but you can't say he didn't know what he was doing when he introduced the Potentials.

If we by the whole, "It wasn't my fault because I was... evil/possessed by an evil thing/ had no soul." then yeah, Xander's off the hook...But then, so is Angelus
If Xander gets off the hook, so does Spike.
Yeah... and Buffy let BOTH of them off the hook for what they did soulless. I don't see the double standard. As sosa lola said, it takes a bit of time to adjust to the fact that someone who's been evil for months (Angel) or years (Spike) is suddenly good again, but they did it. People were shaky around Willow when she first came back from England, too, but they got over that.

The First is killing EVERY Potential, and the ones in Sunnydale are the last ones left, and if those girls die, the Slayer line will be gone forever...... Except for the other 1,780 girls around the planet, apparently.
I don't think it's ever indicated that the Sunnydale Potentials are the last ones left. In fact, in "Chosen," we see several different girls come into their Slayer powers who are clearly NOT in Sunnydale, and afterwards Willow says she can feel them awakening all over, so it's not like that's something that was changed for the comics. The ones in Sunnydale are possibly the only ones the Council knew about, or were able to get to before their Watchers were killed. Remember, the Council doesn't know of all the Potentials that are out there - Buffy herself wasn't found until she was called.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 27 2008 08:12 pm   #74goldenusagi
Admittedly, it's been a while since I've seen season 7, and I wouldn't even know which episode to begin looking at transcripts for.  But I thought there was sort of an "It's down to us" feeling, that all the Potentials they were able to find were assembled.  And after a certain point, we don't see the First killing random Potentials around the world like we did in the first few eps.  I'm sure that there were girls that were overlooked, by both the Council and the First.  But the First couldn't hope to actually end the Slayer line unless it killed all of them.  At any rate, when the comics started and there were 1800 Slayers, I thought it was ridiculous.  :)  I thought it would have made sense to have under 100 tops, given what we were presented in season 7.
Aug 27 2008 08:48 pm   #75Guest
I always thought that it was both reckless and horrible what Buffy and Willow did, turning EVERY girl who could be a slayer into a slayer. I could agree with just activating the Potentials she had with her after they agreed to it, but Buffy pretty much raped every other potential slayer: forcing the demonic power onto countless girls. At least Buffy had a watcher shortly after she was called to tell her why all sorts of demons and vampires were suddenly after he blood and taught her to defend herself.

How many innocent girls just woke up one day suddenly super strong and accidently hurt or killed someone she loved because she had no clue about her newfound superstrength (how young was that girl playing softball)?

How many girls ended up going bad like Faith did?

How many girls woke up one day thinking everything was normal and suddenly get attacked by a bunch of demons who sense her as a Slayer instead of just another human?

There are many people who are pacifics and/or absolutely abhore violence due to their religious beliefs. What happens to them when they are suddenly infected with a demonic power and thrust into the world of being a Slayer?
Aug 27 2008 09:57 pm   #76Scarlet Ibis
But I thought there was sort of an "It's down to us" feeling, that all the Potentials they were able to find were assembled. And after a certain point, we don't see the First killing random Potentials around the world like we did in the first few eps.
You aren't completely wrong about that--

DAWN
They're all slayers?
GILES
Potential slayers. Waiting for one to be called. There were many more like them all over the world, but, um, now there's just a handful, and they're all on their way to Sunnydale.
BUFFY
The others were murdered.

I suppose "handful" could mean a couple of thousand.  :shrug:
 

BUFFY
The First. That's what it wants.
GILES
Yes, to erase all the slayers in training and their watchers along with their methods.
BUFFY
And then Faith, and then me. And with all the potentials gone and no way of making another, it's the end. No more slayer. Ever.

So they did kind of allude in the show that the ones with Buffy with a few strays was it.  1800 or whatever the number is does seem extreme from the impression that they gave us.  I thought maybe a hundred or so--not nearly two hundred percent more than that.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 27 2008 11:27 pm   #77Eowyn315
There were many more like them all over the world, but, um, now there's just a handful, and they're all on their way to Sunnydale.
They're all on their way to Sunnydale? Well, we know that's not possible, since there's no way word could have reached all of them without some connection to the Council. So I would guess the "handful" represents the number of girls the Council knows about.

Consider the three contemporary Slayers we saw on the show - Buffy, Kendra, and Faith - only one of them was recruited as a Potential. We know nothing about the Chinese Slayer's origins, though she seems more Kendra-like and likely trained from a young age, and although Nikki had a Watcher, her lifestyle and fighting techniques both indicate she was a late find, like Buffy. Those aren't real great odds - 1 out of 3, possibly 2 out of 5. I'd figure however many Potentials Giles thought there were in season 7, at least triple it, and you'll be closer to how many there actually were.

Once all these girls start recognizing the effects of the Slayer spell, I would guess a lot more would come out of the woodwork (especially with Andrew's advertising), so it'd be easier to track them down once they're Slayers.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 27 2008 11:42 pm   #78Guest
Given what they indicated about the girls being killed and the remaining ones being sent to Sunnydale, I think 100 unknown girls would be pushing it to me.

It's like they kept changing thier minds about things after they've already established something. For instance, the Turok Khans suddenly becoming easier to kill.It was very difficult for Buffy to kill one even though she has years of experience at fighting and possibly even more strength than a new Slayer because of all the activity.Yet once they activated the potentials , they were able to kill them pretty easily.

When Buffy goes through the portal , the ancient Watchers trying to force more power into Buffy is seen as a rape, yet Buffy and Willow doing the same thing to many unknown girls is empowerment?

Seems like a very sexist viewpoint to make it where bad behavior on a man's part is wrong but when a woman does it it perfectly fine.

And good point about those girls possibly killing someone. I can just see that little baseball player going home and getting into the kind of fight brothers and sisters do and breaking her brother's neck by accident.

Plus think of the potential genocide of the peaceful demons (like Clem) when faced with a bunch of girls who may know nothing more than they have great strength and that the only good demon is a dead demon?

ladycat713
Aug 28 2008 02:55 am   #79nmcil
I think that we should take into consideration that the, at least in my take and understanding of the series, is the metaphor that all woman and men (i.e. Spike) have it within them to find and develop their inner strength and find the hero within themselves and fight for themselves and for the people they love and their society.  Look at the woman that were examples of the newly turned Slayers, they were all what would be considered "normal everyday kind of people - and they had that wonderful example of a woman being able to protect herself and fight back against an abuser.  Sure, the realities of philosophical aspects of the spell were much more complex than the series plot - but as someone else posted, (sorry, I can't remember the name) this is the tale that Joss Whedon was telling.  An in depth analysis of the ramifications of the spell and the morals and philosophy involved would have created a very different show - plus the were simply no new season to take on the discussion.  

There were tons of really dumb plot errors and they could have been easily solved had the writers given more thought and time to the history of the series and even within the season - but I do think that by this time, it was the metaphor that they were trying to present and not so much the logic.  If we were going to talk "logic" and battle theory, the terrible tragic consequences would have been that the power of The Amulet was not known - there never even seemed to be any effort to learn anything about this mysterious magic object that was brought over by Angel, given to him from the evil law firm.  Considering how Giles was presented in AtS, one would have thought that research or getting information from Angel would have been very important.  It has been a while since I saw the finale - was there any effort to learn about The Amulet?  The Scythe was certainly researched.  The Amulet and Spike were the actual force that save the battle but the metaphor beyond the magnificent Spike Transcendence Arc was the finding and accessing of personal inner strengths and character.  This finding your inner hero is the justification for Dawn, Xander, Andrew, Wood and Giles to be part of the battle, logically with their normal human strength, they could never have fought the Uber Vamps with the weapons being used.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 28 2008 03:47 am   #80Guest
There's what you think (or wish) Joss intended to convey in the show and then ther is what actually happened on the show as applied to the real world. After her abuse of Spike in season 6 and then forcing upon thousands of girls the very same "destiny" she spent the last 7 years complaining about the unfairness of, I'm highly sceptical against any theories that paint Buffy as some champion who was simply "helping" the new slayers "be strong" and "find their inner hero" and "stand up against their abusers" It was a form of rape when those men created the original Slayer and it still was a form of rape when Buffy did the same thing on a far greater scale.

my personal favorite is that they trusted the "right" feeling of the axe despite all the stupidity of doing so; the weapon had been in enemy hands, an enemy who specialized in tricking and manipulating people. their so-called research into it was complete bull because first of all, it wasn't in any of their written books but it was 'miraculously' on the internet, a more often than not dubious source that anyone can write anything, anytime. It wasn't even a 'scythe' it was an axe.

My take on it was that the First had an brilliant plan: in exchange one army of raging beasts that were nigh impossible to control in an organized manner, EVERY potential slayer that it couldn't locate and kill just got activated using the weapon it dug up and pretty much handed to them on a silver platter. If it could slip in and corrupt the slayer power that Willow was accessing through the weapon they got from the First it could either destroy all the slayers without any more trouble tracking them down or even better turn them evil or bring them under its control and bang: the First has its own army of slayers for the small price of a bunch of rabid beasts.
Aug 28 2008 04:12 am   #81Eowyn315
There's what you think (or wish) Joss intended to convey in the show and then ther is what actually happened on the show as applied to the real world.
Uh... it's not what we think or wish Joss was doing. It's what Joss has said he was doing. There's no wishful thinking or fanwanking going on there. Joss has been more than clear that the message of season 7 was about power, and "Chosen" was meant to be the culmination of that theme and the subversion of the "one girl in all the world" paradigm that had framed the show. If you don't think he did it well, that's one thing, but you can't say it wasn't what he intended.

ETA: Some quotes from Joss' commentaries on "Lessons" and "Chosen" to show what he intended the season to be about.

Re: Dawn learning to fight - "Empowered and using it and sharing it. That really is what the whole season is about."

Re: Buffy/The First saying "It's about power" - "She said that before. Maybe… that's what this season's about!"

Re: the scythe - "It is convenient, and that doesn't really bother me, because ultimately, to me, the magic, the phlebotnum is always secondary to what needs to be said. And what needed to be said had to do with empowerment."

Re: the empowerment spell - "This I knew I was coming to from the start of the season, pretty early on in it. Buffy was isolated. As a character, even in the world, Buffy and her gang: never ensemble, always 'the star' and 'the others' in the magazines and what-not. And it was very important to me to say "Okay, it's great that you've worshipped this one iconic character: but find it in yourself. Everybody. And that's why we shot the people all over."

Re: the Turok-han becoming easier to kill - "Some people complained, again, that the vampires were too easy to kill. That they were supposed to be stronger than other vampires. And the fact of the matter is… it's true. Like the convenience of the magic, it's true. Because, again, I was more interested in showing the empowerment than I was in the continuity."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 28 2008 04:26 am   #82Guest
It's what Joss has said he was doing


Wasn't the original purpose of this otherwise hijacked thread the topic that what Joss said to fans isn't necessarily true?
Aug 28 2008 08:42 am   #83Guest
Re: Dawn learning to fight -

Wasn't that one of the dropped plot points? Because except for that one time I don't think we ever see Dawn fight again until Chosen.
Aug 28 2008 08:51 am   #84Guest
was there any effort to learn about The Amulet?

I eyeballed the Chosen script real quick and from what I could tell Buffy might not have even told anyone about it. Spike already knew because he saw Angel give it to her and I think Angel had brought a file to give to her but he left it in the car and they got all caight up in thier cookie dough thing and he walked off without giving it to her.
Aug 28 2008 08:29 pm   #85nmcil
My take on it was that the First had an brilliant plan: in exchange one army of raging beasts that were nigh impossible to control in an organized manner, EVERY potential slayer that it couldn't locate and kill just got activated using the weapon it dug up and pretty much handed to them on a silver platter. If it could slip in and corrupt the slayer power that Willow was accessing through the weapon they got from the First it could either destroy all the slayers without any more trouble tracking them down or even better turn them evil or bring them under its control and bang: the First has its own army of slayers for the small price of a bunch of rabid beasts.

This would make a great Fan Fiction Buffyverse Saga - wish you would write it.  Either The First out maneuvered The Senior Partners or they were working together using Angel all along.  As long as The First can corrupted a fraction of the new Slayers and can control them, it makes for a great new army of dark powers.  

Like how some of the writers are starting to deal with the new Slayers and all the problems that come with these new super warriors - Can't remember the writer here that is working on a story as a variation of Comic Season - looking forward to see how she develops it.

Of course there is always Milton and his corrupted warrior - with huge powers comes great ambitions.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 28 2008 09:05 pm   #86nmcil
the ONE BIG THING that always works against Joss Whedon's Buffy Characters and his theme of heroes and self-knowledge and empowerment is exactly the lack of ramifications from choices and conduct of the characters.  Flawed heroes and flawed characters, sure - but giving The Scoobies what appears like "a free ride" from all the really terrible things they did; that is really hard for me to deal with - especially what his main character and hero model does. 

Frankly, about the only way that I can really accept these characters is by application of metaphor and looking at them through a Jungian lens.  I am still totally amazed that many viewers believe Buffy and Angel were a good model for lovers and soul mates.  Unconditional Love is great in theory and as symbolism, but the reality of that working model also brings great potential for tragedy and chaos.

Still have to say that for all the huge problems that The Buffyverse has, there is no other TV series that even remotely touched me and consumed my time and interest or stimulated me more than Joss Whedon's Heroes and Vamps -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 28 2008 11:33 pm   #87Guest
Flawed heroes and flawed characters, sure - but giving The Scoobies what appears like "a free ride" from all the really terrible things they did; that is really hard for me to deal with - especially what his main character and hero model does.

And if they had found a demon doing a fraction of what they did , the demon would have been slain immediately.
Aug 28 2008 11:49 pm   #88Eowyn315
Wasn't the original purpose of this otherwise hijacked thread the topic that what Joss said to fans isn't necessarily true?
Sorry, but that's reaching. There's a difference between behind the scenes stories about actors' availability, where Joss said one thing and the actor said another, and something that's widely accepted as the theme of a season. I've never heard a single person associated with the show deny that season 7 was intended to be about power and empowerment.

Wasn't that one of the dropped plot points? Because except for that one time I don't think we ever see Dawn fight again until Chosen.
She fights a little in "Potential" before handing the reins over to Amanda, but for the most part she finds her niche in research.

I think Angel had brought a file to give to her but he left it in the car and they got all caight up in thier cookie dough thing and he walked off without giving it to her.
No, he gives it to her. When they have their talk in the graveyard, he lays it down on a gravestone, and then walks away without it. She says, "I'll have the guys go through that, see if there's anything new," and she has it tucked under her arm when she walks in the house afterwards. Presumably, she left it with Willow and Giles to research.

the ONE BIG THING that always works against Joss Whedon's Buffy Characters and his theme of heroes and self-knowledge and empowerment is exactly the lack of ramifications from choices and conduct of the characters.
Well... yeah... the show ended. Obviously, there wasn't time to show ramifications from the empowerment spell. I know you're talking in general, but a lot of this thread has been about the empowerment spell specifically, and I find it interesting that the same people who are complaining that no one acknowledged the downsides of the spell seem to be the same people who refuse to read the comics or accept them as canon. Because that's where all the negative consequences are explored.

The entire story arc for season 8 revolves around Twilight, who is trying to reverse the empowerment spell because he thinks it was wrong. You think that might bring up some questions about whether it was the right thing to do? In the first arc, Buffy's slayer army is referred to as terrorists by the military, and they talk about the danger of having a race of superhumans. We get a one-shot about a girl who shows that being called isn't all fun and games, as the nameless slayer dies in Buffy's place. Faith's arc is entirely about bringing down a slayer who's gone bad. The Dracula arc involves vampires who are trying to reverse the empowerment spell, and then the Fray arc gives Buffy a glimpse of the future, where she starts to question whether she made the wrong decision. So, if you want consequences and ramifications, that's where you'll find them.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 29 2008 01:09 am   #89sosa lola
Didn't Dawn have some kick ass fighting scenes in Never Leave Me, before she was saved by Xander that is?

Yeah, S8 is all about Buffy's decision in Chosen, that she wrecked the balance of the world, that she's abusing the power she has, and is facing a good number of groups who thought she made a lousy decision by making all these girls into slayers.
Aug 29 2008 01:37 am   #90Guest
Didn't Dawn have some kick ass fighting scenes in Never Leave Me, before she was saved by Xander that is?

Possibly, It was hard to see sometimes through all those annoying potentials.

Yeah, S8 is all about Buffy's decision in Chosen, that she wrecked the balance of the world, that she's abusing the power she has, and is facing a good number of groups who thought she made a lousy decision by making all these girls into slayers.

It would be an interesting take on things to have Buffy realize that she's the villian and not the hero in Season 8. She's gone even further than Faith ever did with Want,Take, Have and at least Faith never tried to drag an army of girls down with her.

I'm not holding my breath though , waiting for that.If Buffy does have that epiphany , it will probably of the Teflon variety.

Would make for a good fanfic , though .Maybe with Buffy being told that she got in to Heaven before because she died in a state of grace (sacrificing herself to save her sister and the world) and her actions since then (using someone who loves her for sex -with two different people, domestic abuse, and contributing to the deliquency of a bunch of Slayers) has damned her to Hell unless she does a lot of making things right before she dies (in an indeterminate amount of time).

Makes me think of what Faith said when she showed up in Sunnydale to Buffy about her being the good Slayer now. They've flipped sides. Faith's taking down girls who could have easily been her and consequently cleaning up a mess Buffy made while Buffy is teaching a bunch of impressionable girls that the rules don't apply to them because they have the power. It brings a sinister note to Buffy telling Dawn that's it's all about the power in Episode one of season 7.

ladycat713
Aug 29 2008 01:56 am   #91Guest
Wow that would make for a great story, especially if she had a bunch of the new slayers and/or their families confront her about what she did to them. If anyone decides to write it (or if anything similiar has already been written) could you post the link here?

Ladycat, you make a very good point about Buffy and early!Faith switching roles. Aside from the fact that Buffy far exceeded Faith, Faith at least realized she was the villian while Buffy couldn't even admit to anthing more than simply "using" Spike...
Aug 29 2008 04:36 am   #92Guest
while Buffy couldn't even admit to anthing more than simply "using" Spike...

And even that was admitted in a very flippant manner."You're just now getting that"

Barb C's review of season 6 points out a lot of the wrongs with season 6 and puts forth the hopes a lot of the hopes we had for season 7.
http://www.sleepingjaguars.com/buffy/bufindex800x600.htm

Look under rants .It's Barb C.'s (aka Rahirah) review of season 6.

In it there is a line that is about Willow but the last part seems tailor made for Buffy in many ways.

"This year, with the resurrection spell, clearly black magic and the wrong thing to do on many levels, we seemed primed for that deadliest of villains--a hero consumed with hubris who believes that she's in the right."


And if you do drop by her site, I highly rec her stories.

ladycat713
Aug 29 2008 08:35 am   #93nmcil
The entire story arc for season 8 revolves around Twilight, who is trying to reverse the empowerment spell because he thinks it was wrong. You think that might bring up some questions about whether it was the right thing to do? In the first arc, Buffy's slayer army is referred to as terrorists by the military, and they talk about the danger of having a race of superhumans. We get a one-shot about a girl who shows that being called isn't all fun and games, as the nameless slayer dies in Buffy's place. Faith's arc is entirely about bringing down a slayer who's gone bad. The Dracula arc involves vampires who are trying to reverse the empowerment spell, and then the Fray arc gives Buffy a glimpse of the future, where she starts to question whether she made the wrong decision. So, if you want consequences and ramifications, that's where you'll find them.

My "no ramifications from choices and conduct" was intended not particularly for the Slayers spell, but more toward the series in general - I have been reading the Comic Season and following the developments from from the spell and Twilight.  

I also want to add, that while Buffy did a lot of really bad things with and to Spike, she also went to save him from The First and gave him so much emotional and spiritual  support when he needed it at his lowest point.  When he was being controlled by The First, Buffy showed  real compassion and trust in him - Joss Whedon really did give us complex characters -  as much as I hated everything she does in "Dead Things" I loved how she could be so compassionate and supportive during the final season -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 29 2008 04:17 pm   #94Guest

The little girl in Little League was 10, for reference. I met the the actual actress, and that's what she was supposed to be, as the Littlest Slayer. Adorable girl, and tiny (this coming from someone 5'2").

I think, actually, that Faith had her Watcher for a while before she was killed and Faith started hitchiking to CA. She never mentioned that the Slayer thing came as a surprise to her. I don't think she was found too long before she was called, though, just from what she says about her life.

CM

Aug 29 2008 04:24 pm   #95Guest
Oh, another thing I remembered - Wesley says in "Damage" that there are hundreds to thousands of Potentials in "each generation". Generations (X, Y, whatever) are currently about 20 years. You can speculate that most of the Slayers they have to find after the spell are of a different generation than Buffy, Faith, and the girls in SD, which I think are no younger than 16 (Dawn's age). Those Potentials not yet in high school could have possibly been floating all over the place, and The First ran out of time. It was probably most worried about the girls that were old enough to do real damage if they were called.

CM
Aug 29 2008 07:33 pm   #96Eowyn315
My "no ramifications from choices and conduct" was intended not particularly for the Slayers spell, but more toward the series in general
I know, and I did mention that, but the talk on the thread has tended toward that event in particular, and your quote was just the most recent jumping off point for me. Having been reading the comics, do you think they're in any way rectifying the series' lack of ramifications? I think at this point, it's too late to go back and hold people accountable for things they did years ago, but moving forward, I don't really see them letting bad decisions go inconsequentially in the comics.

She never mentioned that the Slayer thing came as a surprise to her. I don't think she was found too long before she was called, though, just from what she says about her life.
I tend to think that becoming a Slayer would've been a relief for Faith. For a girl like her, what could be better than being told you're special? Getting her Watcher would've been kind of like getting a surrogate mother, plus it comes with cool superpowers and Faith has a new outlet for her aggression. So I always took her lack of surprise and her easy acceptance as her having decided being a Slayer was the coolest thing ever. And yeah, from her comments about her life, as well as her total lack of discipline and her refusal to take her duty seriously, I figured that she hadn't had very much training with a Watcher.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 29 2008 10:45 pm   #97nmcil
I think at this point, it's too late to go back and hold people accountable for things they did years ago, but moving forward, I don't really see them letting bad decisions go inconsequentially in the comics.

I do agree with you, too late to go back and try to address past choices, but they can go with moving forward to more maturity and wisdom.   I do think that some of the problems from creation of all these new Slayers is being address - but I also think that some of the story-lines i.e., Dracula and Vamps are more of a detraction from the complex issues.  One problem for me is that I really don't read comic books, and I am stuck in the format of more in depth analysis and treatment of a theme with a lot more words and that just can't happen in a comic book format.  Take for instance the killing of Xander's new love - as a reader I want to know how Xander feels about all this, I want to connect with his emotions about losing her - I am not especially moved by the treatment with Dracula s giving Xander the right to kill or take his revenge for her death.

I have actually decided to spend some time and read all the comics again - get a better view now that there several to read at once - Another problem with the comics is the long time between issues - at least this is a problem for me. 

I just have to adjust to this comic format - what I found really interesting from the start was the military and political implications that started the series and I guess I was expecting that arc and characters to serve as the major plot device - not the break off stories.  I know that they are related to Twilight but I was expecting to continue with the general and that first section.  Think I should have a much better take on everything once I can read all my issues at once.  I am still mystified why Buffy kick Satsu into all those vamps, or did I totally misinterpret that page.  What about thieving? or sending that woman as a decoy - is that something Buffy would do without suffering emotional trauma or is she now such in "general mode" that it does not matter to her?  I just have to wait and see if these questions are relevant or become part of the comic season.  Maybe it's  "who cares"  about the moral questions or how Xander deals with the loss of Rene (I hope I have the name right) - I suppose that in this format the readers must bring their own thoughts and imagination to the story - place our own thoughts  of how we imagine he feels. 

Sorry for my babbling - I have a very difficult time expressing my ideas with words -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Aug 30 2008 09:02 am   #98sosa lola
My friend HATED The Long Way Home and The Chain, she said it was until No Future For You that she started to get hooked. But then she bought the collection books of The Long Way Home and No Future for You. She texted me on my mobile screaming, "The Long Way Home is amazing!!! And The Chain is really moving." I guess reading it all together without the long wait helps enjoying the story more.
Aug 30 2008 08:10 pm   #99Eowyn315
Yeah, I wonder if part of the problem is that Joss isn't used to telling a story in comics, any more than we're used to reading them. Granted, he's done other comic arcs - and maybe those are the same way, I haven't read them - but it seems like he's still writing for a TV series, but in comic form, and it just doesn't mesh. You don't need filler subplots in a comic the way you do in a TV show - just tell the story you need to tell and cut out all the extraneous stuff. If he were telling this story in one-hour-episode-per-week format, I think we'd be blown away by the way the plot is moving forward. We're the equivalent of roughly seven episodes into the season, and there have been some major plot developments for that few episodes. But when it's spread out over seventeen comic issues, it drags. Having it doled out in teeny tiny chunks once a month slows it down already, and including all the filler on top of that just kills the momentum.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 30 2008 11:57 pm   #100sosa lola
I guess if waiting for each new issue is hard and unbearable, it's better to stop reading until S8 finishes. I know many who re-read the first seventeen issues in one night and all enjoyed the storylines, even the ones they used to dislike.