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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
S5 Discussions: The Replacement
I loved, loved, loved Riley in the first scene! I can see why Buffy's friends like him so much. Did you notice how he stopped messaging Buffy when Xander started to imitate him in which it irritated Anya's dislocated shoulder? He noticed that Xander made a fool of himself and stopped right away for Xander's sake. Plus when Xander's parents started to fight and it appeared that Xander was uncomfortable, Riley coughed and it looked to me like he wanted to pat Xander or something, it was adorable.
Poor Xander. :( 19 years living in that hell, I can see how his homelife affected him: his short temper, his judgmental personality, his insecurities, using jokes to hide the pain. If Willow hadn't been his friend all these years, he would have turned into a monster way sooner.
While I see why Anya is very anxious to move out of Xander's stinky, smells-of-urine basement, –doesn't she have an apartment of her own?- she was too pushy it was annoying. The poor guy doesn't have enough money, plus his constriction job is ending soon. Sometimes I just can't blame Xander chiding Anya, she comes off too childish at times.
I love when the Scoobies make fun of Giles. :D
Willow being sweet to Spike, adorable. But then Willow is sweet with everyone. It's her nature. I loved when Spike nods to her, though :D
Spike cheering the demon to kill Buffy. LOL. And you wonder why the Scoobies dislike him. ;) Stupid Toth repays Spike by ruining lamp. :mad:
Awww, Xander pushes Buffy away and gets hit instead. One of the many times he saves her life. :happy:
You know, my sympathies to Joyce. While I'm not a mother yet, two daughters engaging in silly fights and putting you in the middle is so frustrating.
Sigh, Spike, this doll of yours will be used for things other than a punching bag in the future. :shake:
I've always thought that Xander left his confident self in high school, at least pre-The Zeppo. For a loser, he always struck me as a confident one. Maybe it all started when his friends thought less of him concerning fighting demons and vamps? And his insecurity increased when all his friends went to college and he was stuck in his parents' basement getting fired from silly jobs.
Awww, poor Xander. Too insecure to see that he rarely got in trouble and he helped a lot. It's enough to mention that if he didn't sacrifice his life for Buffy's, she would have been in his place right now. And he's willing to throw his life away until he remembered Anya. Demon!Xander can't have Anya. I love the moments that show us that Anya comes first in Xander's life.
It just hits Anya that she's an immortal and she's gonna die soon. It's sad that none of her wishes will get granted because of their non-marriage. :(
BUFFY: Riley, do you wish-
RILEY: No.
BUFFY: No? You don't even know what I was gonna say.
RILEY: Yes, I do. You wanted to know if I wished you got hit by the ferula-gemina, got split in two.
BUFFY: Well, you have been kind of rankly about the whole slayer gig. Instead of having slayer Buffy, you could have Buffy Buffy.
RILEY: Hey. I *have* Buffy Buffy. Being the slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't get that, but...
BUFFY: It's just ... I know how ... un-fun it can be. The bad hours, frequent bruising, cranky monsters...
RILEY: Buffy... if you led a perfectly normal life, you wouldn't be half as crazy as you are. I gotta have that. I gotta have it all. I'm talkin' toes, elbows, the whole bad-ice-skating-movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you I'm not in love with.
:happy:
RILEY: (grinning) Hey, I'm well aware of how lucky I am. Like, lottery lucky. Buffy's like nobody else in the world. When I'm with her it's like ... it's like I'm split in two. Half of me is just ... on fire, going crazy if I'm not touching her. The other half ... is so still and peaceful ... just perfectly content. Just knows: this is the one. (Smiles a little, continues packing for a moment, then looks up at Xander again.) But she doesn't love me.
:(
Guest
CM
Yes, she does. And that kinda makes me dislike her even more in this episode, because if she hates the basement so much, why didn't she suggest that they spend time at her place? Or even move in there together? She really comes off as a bitch complaining about having to hang out in the basement when we NEVER see them over at her place, and for wanting Xander to spend money he doesn't have on an apartment when she's already got a perfectly good one. People always bitch about Willow and Tara not paying rent to Buffy in season 6, but no one ever mentions Anya sharing the rent with Xander.
I've always thought that Xander left his confident self in high school, at least pre-The Zeppo.
Yes, definitely. I wrote a meta on Xander a while ago, chronicling his ups and downs, and he definitely spent all of high school working his way up from loser to someone who was actually respected by not only his friends, but his classmates as well. And then, they all graduated from high school, and he ended up back at the bottom of the heap because he didn't go to college and he was stuck living in his parents' basement working dead-end jobs. This episode is definitely the beginning of his next upswing.
RILEY: Hey. I *have* Buffy Buffy. Being the slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't get that, but...
See, this is why I don't buy those arguments that Riley has ego issues, or that all their problems stem from him wanting to be stronger than Buffy. He gets it - he's given the choice of having not-Slayer Buffy and turns it down without even thinking about it. It's not Buffy's strength that bothers him, it's her detachment. He's happy as could be - except that she doesn't love him. That's what's eating at him, and since she won't talk about her issues and explain how much Angel hurt her and how she's trying so hard to protect herself from ever being vulnerable again, he's left trying to put the pieces together, and he totally comes to the wrong conclusions, and goes about things in the wrong way.
Sooooo - why is Buffy afraid to tell Willow that she's sleeping with Spike?
Well, we already discussed this ad nauseum in the Buffy vs. Dracula thread, but I can add one thing in response to your comment - Buffy wasn't present for the occasions you mentioned, so she'd have very little idea that Willow liked Spike. Not to mention that the one time Buffy does talk to Willow about Spike and relationships, she's worried and insists Buffy must shut him down completely or he'll be all dangerous and twisted.
I agree. I never really bought that Riley wanted to be stronger than Buffy. I think he thought that Buffy wanted him to be this strong fighter, which is why he made the wrong moves. I think he just wanted to have things in common with Buffy and sadly made all the wrong decisions to do so.
Sooooo - why is Buffy afraid to tell Willow that she's sleeping with Spike?
Because it's not her friends she's afraid of. She's afraid of admitting it to herself, therefore she lives in that lie of hers that she saw Spike as nothing but a body to shag, and telling her friends would make it all real. That's how it appeared to me.
With Buffy and Riley - it is tempting to take the words they speak as "words of truth" but I think that with this couple and their relationship we have to take their actions and words together in total. Like Riley saying that he does accept all of her Buffy essence - but how often has this issue of their physical strength acted as a barrier? Riley brings in that difference, this element of their relationship, repeatedly in their arc. It is one thing for Riley to accept and understand a thing intellectually, but that does not mean that people can accept it equally emotionally. It is his deep emotional level, and Buffy's as well, that, IMO, are what define the foundation of them as a romantic couple.
For all of Buffy's words of opening herself to him more than anyone else ever, we know that many very important aspects of her life she kept from him until events force her to speak.
Another thing to consider is the entire premise of the episode - you cannot be split apart from your nature and survive as a viable, mature, and whole person. The question that Buffy asked is irrelevant to her reality. She cannot ever be just "Buffy Buffy." What would be the second part of Buffy? Why the irony of a double Buffy? I don't think that I am just being a "I hate this couple together" - I really do believe that much of their problems did evolve from his not being able to fully accept that Buffy is superior to him physically and that this, on some deep level, goes against his imprinted view of his world.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Which isn't totally off-base, since she clearly enjoyed fighting side-by-side with him when he was with the Initiative. And then once he started having health problems, she began treating him like he was fragile (even moreso than her completely un-enhanced Scooby friends), which clearly bothered him. I'm sure she just wanted to protect him, but come on, he's got oodles of military training and still has some kick-ass weapons, so he was probably better off than any of the Scoobies on patrol. (And she didn't seem to have a problem with him being a normal human in season 4, when they didn't know about the Initiative enhancement stuff.) But he saw it as her shutting him out of one more part of her life.
Clearly, you can see by my above post that I don't think Riley brings the issue of physical strength into the relationship - I think Buffy started it by treating him like he's fragile. When has Riley ever made it a barrier? Buffy is the one who tries to restrict his demon-fighting. Buffy is the one sneaking out to patrol on her own. Buffy is the one who feels she needs to hold back - Riley never asks her to, and in fact tells her the opposite at the beginning of their relationship. So, even though this is probably the third discussion we've had on Buffy/Riley at this point, I still don't know where you're getting this idea from, except that you just don't like Riley. And, I'll be honest, if every single episode discussion is going to be used as an opportunity to blame Riley for everything that went wrong in their relationship, it's going to get old pretty fast.
I think their problems are mostly about the lack of communication. Riley tells Buffy that he accepts her as a whole, and he did show it. He likes her strong and he likes her crazy personality, he enjoys watching her save the day. I think there was a point in S4 where he was at awe of her strength, plus how many times did Buffy knock him down and he kept of smiling. It wasn't her strength that made him start acting like an idiot, it was that he thought she didn't see him as good enough, that was when he started to act like a hero. He wanted to be good enough for Buffy.
Yeah... I'm sure we'll talk about this when we get to "Out of My Mind," but it's pretty clear in that ep that Riley's insecurity is because Buffy doesn't seem to think he's good enough. She's already annoyed that he joins her on patrol, and says she doesn't want him patrolling alone. Then when he's faced with having the surgery and becoming "Joe Normal" again, he's afraid to do it because he thinks he won't be good enough for her anymore, and that he's going to lose her. And you know what? As much as Buffy insists she loves him for him, he's pretty much right, because afterward she increasingly treats him like he's incapable of doing things without help, she doesn't want him on patrol (even though his showing up saves her life at least once), and she pulls away from him more and more.
Actually, she began pushing him away from patrol *before* his health problems. In "Out of My Mind," she wanted to patrol solo (which was what she'd been doing since Dracula--sneaking out in the night to hunt). She runs into Spike and Riley, and she looks annoyed at *both* of them in what she deemed he territory. Riley initially thinks it's just Spike, but Spike helpfully points out to him that "neither boy is needed." Later in the ep, he does express how he feels he has to be strong for her--like he can't keep up, which is why he didn't want the Initiative drugs removed from him (all the while punching stone in a cave).
I think their problems are mostly about the lack of communication. Riley tells Buffy that he accepts her as a whole, and he did show it.He did. Okay. However, that doesn't mean that he could accept himself and his own mortal limitations. He kept trying to change himself--be something that he wasn't. If you can't be you in a relationship, then you shouldn't be in it. Regardless of whose fault it was (and it was both their faults), their relationship never would have worked, love or not. And I do still think the "love" was a one way street.
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I liked this ep, however it saddens me that such extreme measures had to be taken in order for Xander to realize his usefulness. In s3, he is able to realize it all on his own, and to think that he had been so broken down between that point and this one is...well, disturbing. Either way, glad that he knew his own potential. Too bad there wasn't a spell or something in s6 to make him realize he wasn't nor could he ever be his father.
The whole Anya thing--totally agree. Why couldn't they have just moved into her place if she was so thirsty to get away from the hot plate, bleach day, and his parents' yelling fests and so forth? Or have the movie night thing at her place (or Buffy's for that matter--it's obvious Xander's basment was not a good idea, and that so wasn't new news).
Damn there was something else...But overall, I liked this ep. Oh, I found it kind of telling that when Giles says "Toth" in the Magic Box, that Buffy automatically jumps to the conclusion that he was insulting Riley, saying it was a British reference. Her instinct isn't to say, "Giles, you don't have to be so mean. I think he just insulted you in British, Riley." The way she does it...I just found it strange, even if she was way off base as to what Giles was talking about.
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Yeah... I just talked about "Out of My Mind," actually... but Riley's been having health problems since well before that episode. In season 4, he starts getting sick when he goes off the Initiative enhancement drugs. That was the point at which Buffy realized Riley had been superstrong, and now he was losing it. And like you said, she started shutting him out, not letting him patrol with her, right from the beginning of the season. So of course Riley's afraid he won't be strong enough for her in OOMM - she's already shown him he's not.
If you can't be you in a relationship, then you shouldn't be in it.
That's true... but if you can't be yourself because "yourself" isn't good enough for the other person, is that really a reflection on you, or on the other person? And to make things worse, Buffy never told Riley what she wanted or needed from him, so he was left to guess, and to try to be that person, when he wasn't being what she wanted at all.
As I've said before, I don't think Buffy's problem really was Riley's strength (or lack thereof). She certainly made it seem that way to him, with her desire to patrol alone and keep him out of danger, but I think the bigger problem was that Buffy never let him in, never explained to him WHY she wanted to be alone, or WHY she was so afraid of him getting hurt. She never really helped him to understand the Angel issues, which is why he drew the wrong conclusions about Dracula biting her. She never really confided in him about her need to feel strong and in control when her mother was sick - she just let him believe that his comfort wasn't wanted or needed. So yeah, what sosa lola said - it all comes down to communication.
Well - I don't see my ideas of Riley and his relationship with Buffy coming at all from the "I don't like Riley" perspective - I have an opinion that is an honest one from my perspective - it is certainly different from that of many viewers and readers here, but it is how I see his character. I will leave off anymore Riley talk for now.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
So of course Riley's afraid he won't be strong enough for her in OOMM - she's already shown him he's not.
Doesn't Riley mention at some point that Buffy is getting stronger and stronger? - you certainly get the sense that she is becoming a more accomplished and clever fighter than she was in S1-4. In fact, she's getting so good, that JW has to have a vamp stab her with her own stake to remind the audience that she's vulnerable. I think Riley is distressed that he isn't keeping up with Buffy. Maybe he'd be better able to handle that if Buffy wasn't shutting him out on other fronts.
Riley is certainly better than the other scoobies at fighing vamps (with or without drugs) as he proves when he goes after the vamp that stabs Buffy and takes out a whole nest by himself. The gang's contribution that evening was to talk loud and eat chips.
Doesn't Riley mention at some point that Buffy is getting stronger and stronger?
Yes - that's in the same conversation I mentioned in OOMM when Riley says he's afraid he's not good enough for her.
ETA - nmcil, can you really blame me for thinking that your opinions come from not liking Riley when in the first discussion thread you wrote this:
This is one viewer that never liked Riley - for me, he was the worst kind of "Bad" - The Sugar Coating Sweet Person that could be brutal and destructive to anyone or any thing that went against his version of "Good and Acceptable."
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