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No Place Like Home Discussion

Sep 16 2008 01:58 pm   #1sosa lola

Awww, Buffy is a little jealous that Dawn gets the most attention. And Joyce, how come you never had names for Buffy? There are five years between them, I'm sure you had cute names for Buffy before Dawn arrived. I don't know, I thought the writers were too concerned with having Buffy jealous and hurt that they didn't care how Joyce sounded. I hate when they do that, turn everybody into jerks so we can sympathize with Buffy. Please.

Buffy finds Giles standing in the middle of the Magic Box, dressed in a spangled purple robe and a warlock's hat. Isn't Giles the cutest man or what? Seriously, he beats both Spike and Xander in the cutest department in this episode.

"You can't patrol, Buffy said. She also said you look cuter when you're all weak and kitteny and she'd better go solo or you'll get hurt." Uh oh. Dawn's tongue needs to be cut. So I guess Buffy came to the conclusion that she prefers to patrol alone this season, seeing how she usually had her friends patrolling with her from S2 to S4, keeping her company. Poor Riley, that's not something a man (also a woman) likes to hear. No wonder he'll start acting stupid soon.

Willow said the Snyder word describing Dawn. Dawn is a big spaz. :D

Watching this episode made me think: What did Anya do for a living? How was she able to afford her apartment? How did she afford the car she used to run away in S3? I guess we could say that she used to live off Xander (Poor Xander!) but it doesn't explain how she used run her life before Xander was part of it.

Anya has lousy social skills, she needs Xander's lectures like a human needs air. I love when Xander uses sarcasm to lecture Anya, I love when he uses sarcasm. Period. It's much funnier than when he gets goofy and stupid.

Anya wraps up a woman's purchase and hands it to her.

ANYA: (to woman) Please go.

The woman walks away, shaking her head.

XANDER: Anya, the Shopkeeper's Union of America called. They wanted me to tell you that "please go" just got replaced with "have a nice day".

ANYA: But I have their money. Who cares what kind of day they have?

XANDER: No one. It's just a long cultural tradition of raging insincerity. Embrace it.

Anya calls out to her customer.

ANYA: Hey, you! Have a nice day.

XANDER: There's my girl!

Anya grins with pride.

Aw, Xander and Anya are so adorable sometimes!!! :happy:

"Does this look right to you?" "Sure if you wrapped it with your feet." Hee, Willow and Anya are the female Spander. Except gentler. ;)

I love when Anya gives advices, I wonder why the Scoobies don't ask her often. Asking Anya makes more sense than just heading to Spike every time they needed info. I guess the writers just needed an excuse for Buffy to need Spike's knowledge.

Buffy's attempt to make Riley feel useful is adorable. I loved his advice "instead of you taking care of me, why don't we take care of each other." Wish all couples use this advice.

Man, Dawn is so clingy. Kid, you're 14, go to your 14 year old friends! Well, seeing how her mother still gets her babysitters, no wonder Dawn still acts younger than her real age.

I actually felt shudders through my spine when Buffy said, "You're not my sister." And felt so bad for Dawn. I wish I watched this episode when it first aired, I'd have probably thought that Dawn was a ghost of a demon, because they're setting it up like that.

And there starts the Spike Stalker Show. Taking after his grandsire, isn't he? ;) Now what is it with Buffy saying "William" here, hints of Spuffy? Spike is acting like a six year old with a crush, an adorable six year old with a crush. Now I'm rethinking who's gonna win the cutest award of the episode. :D

The last scene between Buffy and Dawn brought tears to my eyes. I feel sad they grew apart in S8, hope Joss fixes that.

Sep 16 2008 04:36 pm   #2Guest
Anya has lousy social skills, she needs Xander's lectures like a human needs air. I love when Xander uses sarcasm to lecture Anya, I love when he uses sarcasm.

They overdid it on the lectures, funny  became condescending. The input about her lousy social skills is one (pretty funny) thing but other times it's: Anya is a thousand plus years old and here is her twenty year old boyfriend cutting her off when she has input from massive experience with dealing with demons. I too love when Anya gives advice, but I don't blame her for not speaking out more since when she does, because of how they respond to her complete bluntness. Anya is blunt to a fault, not an idiot.

Man, Dawn is so clingy. Kid, you're 14, go to your 14 year old friends! Well, seeing how her mother still gets her babysitters, no wonder Dawn still acts younger than her real age.

In my experience (Thank god I no longer have to deal with it), Dawn wasn't nearly as bad as a sheltered 14 year old girl could act. Plus, little siblings are always clingy at some point, but (thankfully) they grow out of it. Still, I tend to give the kid alot of leeway, children mature based on their environment and they all treated her as nothing but a little kid, so what's to expect?
Sep 16 2008 05:50 pm   #3sosa lola

Who are you guest? :D

I, too, hate how they turned Anya into this stupid innocent who knows nothing about human relations and behavior. She was such a normal person in S3, she seemed to know how to behave and deal with human matters. Then she arrived back in S4 and she was all, "How can I act like a human?" Started reading books and stuff when she seemed just fine with it in S3.

So far, Xander's lectures look fine to me. Anya needs them. Because with her lousy social skills, she won't be able to fit in, especially as someone who works in the cashier. 

Anya is a thousand plus years old and here is her twenty year old boyfriend cutting her off when she has input from massive experience with dealing with demons.

I don't remember Xander cutting Anya off when she shares her wisdom, unless she's talking about torturing men, which I can't blame Xander for being uneasy about. He's a man after all. :D Plus, the thought of Anya torturing people before is just scary, I don't think Xander ever wanted to dwell on it. He accepts Anya, but her past? I don't think so.

I agree with you on Dawn. The way her mom treats her, she's ought to become so clingy and childish.

Sep 16 2008 09:31 pm   #4Eowyn315
What did Anya do for a living? How was she able to afford her apartment? How did she afford the car she used to run away in S3?
Here's my hypothesis - when she was "undercover" as a Sunnydale High student, she could have gotten an apartment, and maybe even a car (possibly on D'Hoffryn's nickel since it was for a vengeance gig), and then kept them once she became human. We don't see her ever work before this episode, and she couldn't possibly have been living off Xander to the extent that he paid for her apartment and car (especially not in season 3 when they weren't even dating).

Anya has lousy social skills, she needs Xander's lectures like a human needs air.
Here's the thing I don't understand - WHY does Anya have lousy social skills? I can understand her having issues with human things like mortality, which she never had to deal with as a demon, but it's not like she's been living on another planet. She obviously has to blend into society to some extent to strike up conversations with the scorned women she grants wishes for. Not to mention she's been observing humans for 1100 years - even if she didn't live like them, you can't tell me she didn't pick some things up. She might not be used to doing things like being polite, and might need a reminder to do it, but she really ought to know that it's a human behavior. The way these things are treated like they're foreign concepts to her doesn't ring true.

Man, Dawn is so clingy. Kid, you're 14, go to your 14 year old friends!
Yeah, but when you're 14, aren't your sister's 19 and 20 year old friends just waaaay cooler than anyone in 9th grade? I never had an older sibling, but I'd imagine Dawn's at the age where she wants to be as cool as Buffy, and she wants to tag along with everything they do because it seems so grown-up to her. She does seem to grow out of it - in season six she's still clingy, but at least has one friend her age, and by season seven, Buffy's become embarrassing and she starts to make her own friends, up until the school thing becomes irrelevant.

Now what is it with Buffy saying "William" here, hints of Spuffy?
I get the impression it's the "stern mom" thing. You know how you can tell you're in trouble when your mother uses your full name? That's what Buffy's doing, it seemed like.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 16 2008 10:18 pm   #5sosa lola

Here's my hypothesis - when she was "undercover" as a Sunnydale High student, she could have gotten an apartment, and maybe even a car (possibly on D'Hoffryn's nickel since it was for a vengeance gig), and then kept them once she became human.

I like this explanation. :)

We don't see her ever work before this episode, and she couldn't possibly have been living off Xander to the extent that he paid for her apartment and car (especially not in season 3 when they weren't even dating).

When I said living off Xander, I meant S4. After they became a couple. Anya may own an apartment (with a closet full of clothes) and a car, but she also needs food. So maybe Xander helped her in this department. There's a conversation in S4 in which Anya complains that Xander is more concerned with getting money and doesn't pay attention to her, then he replies that getting money means buying Anya nice things.

Like I said, I hate that they overdid it with Anya not understanding human behavior, especially since we've seen the opposite of that in S3. If she's blunt, then it's her nature, but she acts like it's a normal thing humans do, not something impolite.

 

Sep 16 2008 10:28 pm   #6Guest
I always wondered how the story would be different and what everyone thinks of Dawn would be different if they did choose one of the 'moppets' or the really young kids they were planning to use as Dawn instead of Michelle Trachtenberg. It was like, as the writers switched around and the storyline already had general ideas that needed Dawn to be irrational or immature or whiny, each writer had different ideas for how mature Dawn's thoughts and feelings should be, even if the actions came out similar for her character. I think a younger kid would have been a lot more disturbing as a possible enemy and show the situation with a lot more emotion and connect the audience to her more.

The retcon of Anya's character always bothered me. Usually, because I love the comedy Anya brings up with Xander, I just totally ignore how she speaks and what she's like in season three. But when I do think of it, I don't know why they had to make Anya so strange. If she was supposed to help fill in the role of Cordelia, she was still a thousand year old ex-vengeance demon who could have opinions and thoughts about things presented in an amusing way without being so... alien to humanity. I can only think in season four that they were feeling out her character and they wanted to use her as comedy more than a part of the group that fills a role in the conversation, and they thought the vaguely human speech and ideas of Spike were already there.
In season seven, Anya has a flashback to when she was human, and where she speaks the same and talks about things the same and even mentions how the other villagers think she's is too straight-forward and odd.
Sep 16 2008 10:48 pm   #7sosa lola
To be honest, I'm glad they chose a 14 year old Dawn. Okay, she may act younger than her age, but it can be explained: she's her mother's baby, she's the slayer's sister, therefore, always protected and so on. But I won't trade mature 16 year old Dawn for any younger actress. And MT's hair is shiny :D
Sep 16 2008 11:09 pm   #8Guest
I can't comment on much right this second cause I'm really sleepy and bored, but--

Here's the thing I don't understand - WHY does Anya have lousy social skills?
When she was first introduced, she totally didn't have lousy social skills.  Once she was integrated as a regular on the show, the higher ups decided that she needed some kind of gimmick/schtick to...hell if I know.  Stand out, I guess, even though she was the only "1100 year old vengeance demon who lost her powers" on the show ever...
Sep 16 2008 11:10 pm   #9Guest
crap, that was me, Scarlet.
Sep 16 2008 11:45 pm   #10Guest
I love Emma, but they rarely knew what to do with Anya. She couldn't be the witch, because Willow was. She couldn't be the knowledge person, because Giles was. And with her and Spike both being the "Duh! Hello!" characters, one or the other always got shafted when they needed someone in the 'Cordelia role'. Especially once they made her a regular - where would she fit? If she deserves x amount of episodes, then she needs something unique, not to be basically covered by other characters unless "we want Anya to do it this time". :?

Another bit of poor planning from ME.

CM
Sep 17 2008 12:21 pm   #11sosa lola
Let's kick it off with the whole scene to scene discussion ;)

- Buffy is a little jealous that Dawn gets the most attention. And Joyce, how come you never had names for Buffy? There are five years between them, I'm sure you had cute names for Buffy before Dawn arrived. I don't know, I thought the writers were too concerned with having Buffy jealous and hurt that they didn't care how Joyce sounded. I hate when they do that, turn everybody into jerks so we can sympathize with Buffy. Please.

What do you think of this scene?
Sep 17 2008 07:24 pm   #12nmcil
I will check out this scene and episode today - post little bit later -  I would love to have some scene comments from OoMM - cemetery and new training room scenes -

On Anya and her social skills - the treatment of her character makes little sense - none of the other Vengence Demons are presented in this same way - nor is Anya as a Vengence Demon shown like a "social nut case."  As I recall, she is only given this "dumbing down social skills" when she is around humans. 



” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 19 2008 06:17 pm   #13nmcil
One thing about the scene is that it connects Buffy's first struggle with having to be a caretaker, previously she complains about that maybe she would like to be the youngster that people take care of - this scene brings it out again - plus the theme of "having names" is brought to conclusion when the truth of Dawn if revealed - Dawn is a nickname/human construct  for The Key and Buffy now must take on the full struggles and responsibility of Care-Taker, she can never revert to her "youngster" status.   Another layer is that  Buffy. IMO, is not particularly jealous of is not Dawn as she is jealous and envious of the freedom vs duty/responsibility  of having to always be The Slayer.   Plus, Dawn is just so irritating - after all of Buffy's efforts with breakfast, Dawn takes credit, Dawn has a book club, she's "the big baby" that can still sit on Mom's lap.  One reason that Joyce does not have a "baby name" for Buffy is, IMO, to emphasis the metaphor of The Slayer as Caretaker.  Riley and Buffy suffer from this same dynamic, she sees him as needing to be "made safe."

These are the themes that I took from this scene - I really enjoyed seeing this episode again -

Love the Magic Box nutty Giles in robe and cap  and what continues to be one of my favorite Spike moments of the entire series "out for a walk.....bitch"
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 19 2008 06:31 pm   #14sosa lola
Yeah, Dawn does act like a naughty little monster :D Poor Buffy. All the work she does and her mom spoils Dawn to no end. I still think they overdid it with Joyce no having baby names for Buffy.

Dawn's babbling mouth also went on in the Magic Box, making things uncomfortable for Buffy and Riley.
Sep 20 2008 04:22 am   #15Eowyn315
I always wondered how the story would be different and what everyone thinks of Dawn would be different if they did choose one of the 'moppets' or the really young kids they were planning to use as Dawn instead of Michelle Trachtenberg.
I really don't think it would've been as good. I think the "let's bring in a cute little kid to up the ratings" factor would've been much more blatant with, well, a cute little kid. Dawn, although younger than the rest of the gang, is at least old enough to be a character in her own right (although she doesn't get much opportunity to do so), and she does eventually manage to find a role within the group to some extent, doing research and all. A younger kid would've seemed remarkably out of place once the whole "Key" storyline was played out - I wouldn't be surprised if they'd planned to kill the kid instead of Buffy - not to mention Buffy's neglect in season six would've been criminal, since a younger child couldn't fend for themselves as well as Dawn did.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 20 2008 01:07 pm   #16sosa lola
A younger kid wouldn't have become the woman we all love in S7 :) Plus, a teenage Dawn is more interesting than a child Dawn.



Sep 20 2008 04:15 pm   #17Scarlet Ibis
A younger kid wouldn't have become the woman we all love in S7
Um...love is a bit strong.  Dawn didn't have much to do in s7, and she was only not annoying in one of her two centric eps (though to be fair, in one of them she was under a spell).  Younger wouldn't have necessarily been bad...it's tricky with child characters as well as story lines.  Take Angel for instance--I would have preferred a baby Connor (but mostly because I know what happens next) over teenaged Connor any day.  But...at the same time, baby Connor would have gotten boring after awhile.  I have a feeling if he stuck around, he would have been the baby they talked about as opposed to the baby they showed.

And at the end of the day, MT played a young version of a 14 year old (for whatever reason) as discussed earlier, so that probably worked best anyway.  Sometimes, it's still hard to wrap my brain around her playing a 14/15 year old in s6-7.  I keep thinking "twelve--she's a pre-teen" :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 20 2008 07:37 pm   #18sosa lola
Um...love is a bit strong. Dawn didn't have much to do in s7

She knows how to fight, she's the best at research and translation, she dropped the whiny, useless attitude, she became mature and gaurded her emotions quite well. Oh, yeah, so much love for 16 year old Dawn of S7. :) I won't hold it against her if she sounded whiny in Him, she was under a spell and she still refrained from using the hated "Get out, get out, get out," to throw out Mommy Buffy and Daddy Xander when they were comforting her in her room. :D

Anyway, a younger Dawn may not reach that level of maturity. I know she didn't have much of a storyline in S7, but that's the writers' fault, not to mention that we had so many storylines and plots that were rushed and uneven, they couldn't squeeze a storyline for Dawn, sadly.
Sep 20 2008 07:56 pm   #19Scarlet Ibis
She knows how to fight, she's the best at research and translation, she dropped the whiny, useless attitude, she became mature and gaurded her emotions quite well. Oh, yeah, so much love for 16 year old Dawn of S7.
Fair enough ;)  But love is a pretty strong word :P  Not to say that I (or everyone) disliked Dawn.  I just don't think that everyone loved her in s7 or otherwise.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 20 2008 08:06 pm   #20nmcil
I liked Dawn as she matured - and especially as the intelligent young woman with great promise - it was unfortunate that the character was used as a plot device or "let's me a verbal point and emphasis" like her I can burn you up while you sleep to Spike.  That encounter would have been great if the writers had used it to connect her feelings of love and friend for Spike in their past and how that all changed with the attempted rape.  Instead they use her to emphasis the anger and hate from his relationship with her sister. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 20 2008 08:57 pm   #21sosa lola

Fair enough ;) But love is a pretty strong word :P Not to say that I (or everyone) disliked Dawn. I just don't think that everyone loved her in s7 or otherwise.

I thought the S7 Dawn love was international :D Almost every fan I come across loves her in S7, even those who really hate her thought she was better than in S5 and S6, but that didn't mean they loved her, so I can see your point. ;)

I honestly loved Dawn's threat to Spike, just like I loved her reluctant to have Willow back, but sadly all that was dropped. That's what I hate about S7, it started amazingly, then lots of character issues were dropped for the Big Picture. It would have been nice to see Dawn going through a hard time trusting Willow and Spike again before they patch things up, and I've always wished we saw how Xander gradually started to accept Spike (like maybe show us how they interacted in Xander's apartment) instead of just giving us the end of that story. Sucks. I really wish they had Spike interact more with the other Scoobies in S7, instead of spending his time just with Buffy.

Anyway... we're turning this into a S7 thread :D Let's get back to S5, shall we?

So what are your thoughts on Buffy and Riley in this episode?

Sep 20 2008 09:26 pm   #22Scarlet Ibis
So what are your thoughts on Buffy and Riley in this episode?
Well, Buffy pushes Riley even more away.  At least now she has the legitimate reason of him being on the mend as opposed to him just annoying her.  But, to assuage her own guilt at referring to him as being an overgrown cat, she decides have him help pour spooky sand.  Very safe.  Riley mentions them working on helping each other, but it seems to me, that should have been a sit down conversation kind of thing as opposed to just one line about it.  Buffy didn't get the meaning of that at all.

DAWN
(to Riley)
You can't patrol. Buffy said.

BUFFY
No, I didn't.

DAWN
Yeah, remember? You said it'd be easier if you didn't have to look out for anybody.

BUFFY
(nervous)
Well, I wasn't talking about Riley.

RILEY
Don't worry about it.

DAWN
Oh, she just said you look even cuter when you're all weak and kitteny
and she'd better go solo or you'd get hurt. So welcome to the
club. She'll never let me go either.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 22 2008 01:20 am   #23Spikez_tart
x
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 22 2008 01:31 am   #24Scarlet Ibis
Um...I think you're talking bout "Family," and not this ep ;)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 22 2008 04:14 am   #25nmcil
Why does Buffy use William in this scene?  Is it because his failure to remove the chip and his realization that he loves Buffy now places him firmly in his new phase of having to turn away from being The Big Bad?  It also could just be a foreshadow for FFL - using William would not be the name Buffy normally used.  Using this name suggested to me that Spike will eventually replace Riley in her slayer sphere, Spike is the one to help out in "The Family" - not Riley.  


BUFFY
: What are you doing here?

(Spike appears to be about to launch into some convoluted explanation. Buffy cuts him off.)

BUFFY: Five words or less.

(Spike, irritated, counts the words on his fingers.)

SPIKE: Out... for... a... walk... bitch.

BUFFY: Out for a walk at night by my house. No one has time for this, William.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 22 2008 04:17 am   #26Scarlet Ibis
I'm going to have to agree with Eowyn--
I get the impression it's the "stern mom" thing. You know how you can tell you're in trouble when your mother uses your full name? That's what Buffy's doing, it seemed like.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 22 2008 10:59 am   #27Guest
I concur - her tone is totally "authority figure" there. We already know she thinks he has the maturity of a teen at best, so.....

CM
Sep 22 2008 11:01 am   #28Guest
Oh, besides putting him in his place, it also probably annoys him, since he's been firmly Spike for years. I know I'd be annoyed as hell if someone younger than me tried to go all mom tone and call me Kimberly. I haven't been "Kimberly" since junior high.

CM
Sep 22 2008 12:04 pm   #29Spikez_tart
Scarlet - having a senior moment as usual - grr argh.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 22 2008 07:43 pm   #30nmcil
this "stern mom" makes a lot of sense - thanks for this idea - one of the reason I like these discussions is that I get new perspectives - I have a tendency to give too much metaphor and abstract associations -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 22 2008 08:20 pm   #31nmcil
Here is another scene that seemed, at least to me, to show how much stress their relationship was under - the big scene where they are suppose to bring some resolution to failing relationship involves a handshake.  Is this to suggest that they are being "adult" about things - a bargain of equals?  This handshake is Riley's action - and then we have Buffy taking this into a romantic gesture.  A handshake seems like such a simple gesture, this simple "we agree to be equals"  would have saved them. 

Speculation - would the scene have given a different message if Buffy had not taken it to a romantic moment instead of leaving it as a bargain of equals? 




Does it seem unsual for a couple, under the circumstances presented in their troubled relationship, to do a handshake? 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 23 2008 10:22 am   #32sosa lola
I'm glad they actually had Buffy wanting it to be romantic, because I really think she wanted the relationship to work out. I agree with you on why Riley went for the handshake.
Sep 28 2008 02:54 am   #33Spikez_tart
Handshake equals weird.  Ruffy did have a really beautiful theme song.  Wasted on those two IMHO
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Sep 28 2008 03:29 am   #34Scarlet Ibis
He looks quite stiff--methinks he was a bit pissed off then.  Hence the whole initiating a handshake--distance.

And I'm sticking with Biley :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 28 2008 10:43 am   #35sosa lola
What's their theme song?