BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Dumbing Down Characters :(

Sep 17 2008 10:20 pm   #1Guest
Has anyone else noticed how non-Scooby characters tend to get dumbed down on the show?

Spike goes from being Buffy's equal in a fight, that would have killed her more than one if not for outside interference (like Joyce in School Hard) and then suddenly Buffy is kicking his ass like he's a little more than a fledge in Harsh Light of Day. And then in Out of My Mind they turn around and have Spike beat Buffy without even setting off his chip and in the span of the same ep Spike goes from gleefully (trying to) ripping Buffy's throat out to having a dream and deciding he's actually in love with her.

Anya is a several thousand year old person with scores of experience with dealing with both demons and humans that she plies wishes out of. So why is she suddenly an idiot would can't understand human emotions after growing up human and re-becoming a human over two years ago (see ep following Joyce's death). She's been buddying up with her very human prey for millenia and yet she suddenly has absolutely no social skills!?

Any thoughts?

-Ron
Sep 18 2008 12:31 am   #2nmcil
you should join the discussion about Anya's treatment in the episode discussion thread -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 18 2008 02:24 am   #3sosa lola
I'll include Xander to your list. He started as a clever, angry teenager with sharp wit, and then ended up being nothing but a comic relief. His jokes more goofy than sarcastic.

We started discussing Anya's character change in Episode Discussion: No Place Like Home :)

I think Spike suffers from Big Bad = strong, Redeemed Big Bad = weak. Look how Angel got stronger as Angelus and became weak as Angel, Spike was strong when he first appeared, once becoming a nice vamp, he got weak.
Sep 18 2008 03:09 am   #4slaymesoftly
I think Spike was better than Buffy when they first met - or at least her equal. She was young and he had over 120 years of experience going for him. As the seasons went on, she got stronger and better. In Harsh Light of Day, she didn't kick his ass until he pissed her off by talking about Angel. Up until then, she was getting hammered.  I see them as very evenly matched most of the time, with Buffy herself admiring Spike's strength and fighting ability.  Even after the soul, she asks for the Spike she first met - and she gets him.

Anya is definitely a shining example of lack of thinking on the part  of the writers. Of course she would have social skills and a good knowledge of humanity. And, I'm pretty sure she already knew what orgasms were too... 

I think the writers (or Joss) needed comic relief frequently, and they used whoever was handy - even if it meant making a buffoon out of someone who really shouldn't have been, or who wasn't normally that sort of person. *shrugs* just one of those Buffyverse things.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Sep 18 2008 03:38 am   #5Guest
I was really annoyed at how they wrote Spike in all of season four. For one thing, he's with HARMONY? after being devoted to one vampire for over a century and doing so much for her? Maybe he'd have sex with Harmony once, but I can't believe he kept her around and let them play at boyfriend-girlfriend.

It wasn't just his fighting skills didn't seem impressive anymore, and he's regularly beat up by demons at a bar or whatever-- they also messed up his personality. Spike was not a one-dimensional character at all before season four; we'd seen him loving, weepy, drunk, jealous, happy, cocky, dangerous, strong, reckless, immature, and a whole lot of other things, so it wasn't like he was so perfect a villain that he didn't have any layers or depth and couldn't be a regular like that. After the chip, though, they made Spike's personality get all watered down and whiny  and irritating ALL THE TIME, not just comic relief some scenes. Sure, he might react by feeling uncertain of who he is and insecure after getting the chip, but they really didn't let us see any real emotions on his part, just mocking parodies and annoying instead of evil taunts.
Plus, something we have in fanon a lot of Spike knowing ways to get aorund teh chip if he really wanted to kill anyone-- the real Spike of seasons two and three would have been at least looking for ways to use that, right?!
Sep 18 2008 03:46 am   #6Scarlet Ibis
Maybe he'd have sex with Harmony once, but I can't believe he kept her around and let them play at boyfriend-girlfriend.
Spike isn't the one night stand type of guy, so even though he didn't care for Harmony very much, it made perfect sense that he made her his girlfriend so that they could have sex on the regular.

As for Spike and his personality alteration and not actively seeking out chip removal, well one, if he didn't have the chip, he couldn't have been with the Scoobies as much without a valid reason (I've seen fan fic writers handle this better, but at the time, those writers had nothing).  Also, they didn't know what to do with Spike beyond the fact that they knew that he had to be there.  And even then, he wasn't there that much.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 18 2008 07:21 am   #7nmcil

Spike was not a one-dimensional character at all before season four; we'd seen him loving, weepy, drunk, jealous, happy, cocky, dangerous, strong, reckless, immature, and a whole lot of other things, so it wasn't like he was so perfect a villain that he didn't have any layers or depth and couldn't be a regular like that. After the chip, though, they made Spike's personality get all watered down and whiny and irritating ALL THE TIME, not just comic relief some scenes. Sure, he might react by feeling uncertain of who he is and insecure after getting the chip, but they really didn't let us see any real emotions on his part, just mocking parodies and annoying instead of evil taunts.
 

I also never liked the  "dumbing down" that Spike suffered it was  not as overt as Anya but he goes from an strong and effective vamp/man into this idea of Spike as a vamp/man that can not ever successfully carry out a plan and operation.   One of the things that his chip allowed was to take him out of this Spike always has to lose to The Slayer  mode.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Sep 18 2008 12:09 pm   #8sosa lola
I think the writers (or Joss) needed comic relief frequently, and they used whoever was handy - even if it meant making a buffoon out of someone who really shouldn't have been, or who wasn't normally that sort of person. *shrugs* just one of those Buffyverse things.

I really agree with this. I think Pangs is the biggest example.

I was really annoyed at how they wrote Spike in all of season four. For one thing, he's with HARMONY? after being devoted to one vampire for over a century and doing so much for her? Maybe he'd have sex with Harmony once, but I can't believe he kept her around and let them play at boyfriend-girlfriend.

Harmony was just a sex toy, Spike didn't really care about her, but the vamp needs sex and Dru wasn't giving any, so :D Plus Dru cheated on him and doesn't seem to want anything to do with him.

I don't blame Spike for getting whiny once they put the chip in his head. Imagine being on top and then just with one surgery you sink down. The children you used to fight don't fear you anymore, heck they lost respect for you and treat you like a burden. Even the vampires and demons lost respect for you.  That ought to make me whine.

Sep 18 2008 12:52 pm   #9slaymesoftly
Good point about Harmony, sosa.  He wasn't in love with her, but he was used to having a woman in his life, and she was handy and willing. I suspect the "boyfriend/girlfriend" aspect of it was as much in Harmony's mind as it was for real. To Spike, she was just a convenience - and eventually an annoying one that he didn't miss when she left him.

And, yeah, getting that chip would have required a major adjustment.  Fortunately, Spike is very adaptable, but it still would have knocked him down for a bit.  Remember his delight when he discovered that he could kill other demons?  He basically (given that getting the chip out somehow was never presented as a viable option)had to reinvent himself into someone who could live with this life-changing handicap.  Spike's entire arc consists of going from a cartoonish, if deadly, villain, through a reluctant ally, to a lovesick dumpee, a revenge-seeking predator, a completely helpless victim, and on and on - the role really gave James a chance to show his range. LOL  He did seem to become  dependent on Buffy and in need of her protection as the seasons went on, but he made up for all that by dying to save her and her world.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Sep 18 2008 04:20 pm   #10Guest
Harmony was rebound - he had no complaints about her skills in bed, it was the constant chatter that drove him nuts. Her practical worship of him was good for his ego at a time that he needed it after being dumped by Dru. The only way to really get rid of Harmony is to stake her - an aspect I'm sure Spike didn't expect when he bedded her the first time. He probably meant to shag and move on to the next girl, trying to get over Dru, but Harm stayed around....and stayed, and stayed.......

He does have a tiny bit of affection for her, though, as he only tries to stake her the once when he's pretty sure she's wearing the Gem, and by season 5, he doesn't even try yelling at her anymore.......with the chip, she's his only 'friend'.

It was complicated. ;)

CM
Sep 18 2008 05:31 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis
I agree CM, though when he did stake her the once, I don't think he knew she had the gem :P  Harmony knew things and understood things about Spike, so I suspect she wasn't the only one constantly chattering away ;)  And Spike's version of a rebound isn't a one night stand...sure, Harmony annoyed the hell out of him a lot of the time in s4 (I rather think he enjoyed her company in s5--even though it still managed to annoy him at the same time.  Just not as much), but I think Spike preferred to have a pretty lady on his arm than none, especially at that point in time.  That, and she was the total opposite of Dru.  Harmony was the typical blonde well...bimbo, to an extent, and by having her constantly around was like a big flag saying, "Yes, damn it, I've moved on."
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Sep 18 2008 06:00 pm   #12TammyDevil666
My theory is probably lame, but I think even when Spike first hooked up with Harmony, he secretly wanted Buffy.  Since they do kinda look alike, I think Harmony was just a substitute for the one he really wanted.  Hence him having her wear Buffy's sweater that one time and pretending that she was the Slayer in his sex games.  Of course at that point, he knows he loves her, or at least thinks he does.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Sep 18 2008 08:42 pm   #13Guest
I agree that he's not the one-night-stand type normally....but I could believe a period of it over the summer after Dru dumped him, especially if most of that time is drunk. What I really meant is that I don't think he was looking to date, to be in a relationship. Probably more like find a vamp to be "friends with benefits" with.. blonde bimbo is a perfect rebound choice, completely opposite of Dru, yeah........if she only didn't talk so much about so little. :P

Yeah, Tammy, you're not the first I've seen with that theory. Subconsciously, picking a blonde works with Dru's theory of Sunshine, as well as being anti-Dru. He seemed to prefer brunettes for the most part, otherwise.

CM
Sep 18 2008 10:16 pm   #14pfeifferpack
I think Harmony was also naive Spike's attempt to "replace Buffy" (his first Buffybot) to disprove Dru's theory.  Blonde, check.  Valley girl just out of high school, check.  Heck he even had her dress up as Buffy!  I think he wanted to prove to himself that any attraction Dru had noted was superficial and just like the Bot it was hallow and an annoyance because he wanted BUFFY.  Just as the Bot was not Buffy Harmony was even less so.  I believe that was the reason he was cruel to her as well.  She merely served to prove to his subconscious that Buffy was what he wanted and substitutes would not cut it.

Kathleen
Sep 18 2008 11:00 pm   #15Guest
Hmm...I'm going to have to disagree with this "Harmony= Buffy replacement" business.  He had her dress up as Buffy one time, right before she left him indefinitely, and it was at her suggestion to even play a game.

Buffy and Harmony have nothing in common besides being women, and Harmony is actually a natural blonde.  Unlike Buffy and Dru, she is curvy and busty, and physically shares nothing with those two women besides the obvious.  She was Spike's anti-lady of sorts, and totally against his type (though Cecily wasn't stick thin either). 

Spike was more than likely hanging around California somewhere after getting back from South America for the second time, and ran into Harmony, this young woman/young vamp who more than likely was...damn, there's no real nice way to say this.  She probably had a tiny vagina.  Willow makes a joke in s4 about Harmony and her pretend boyfriends, so my guess is she more than likely died a virgin.  So here's, this young, pretty vampire, who is eager for a boyfriend, and is green in so many ways it isn't even funny, and would probably do whatever Spike told her to do.  Sure she whined a bit and wanted to be taken places, but she wasn't that much trouble to have around, and they had really amazing sex.  Also, he was only really cruel to her when she annoyed him, but at the same time, she liked it when he was rough a bit.  I recall a scene in HLoD, when he's looking for the ring, and he shoves her against the cave wall after her incessant prattling.  She smiles coyly at him, and he smiles back, and bam, she's got him just like that.

Or consider this--in that same ep, when they run into Buffy at that party, and Harmony is spilling the beans about Spike's breakup with Dru, embarassing him horribly, he rolls his eyes, annoyed, but grabs her hand and runs off.  If he really wanted to, he could have left her behind with Buffy, knowing full well she would have been staked.  Also, she's the one who calls things off in s4, but only because he was gone for all that time (being trapped in The Initiative),. and finally kicks him out.  When she comes back in s5, there original arrangement wasn't even bf/gf--she asked to stay with him to hide from the Slayer, and he agreed if she would consent (consent) to have sex with him.  She said "duh," like it was a no brainer, so clearly she found just as much enjoyment from this "hide out with benefits" program as he did.  So were they really official then?  Not necessarily, of course she says so in "Crush," but then, that may not have been Spike's perspectve.  Not that he actually cheated on her.  He just lusted after Buffy and danced with Dru.

And yes--I'm bored and at work, and clearly too much time on my hands :P
Sep 18 2008 11:00 pm   #16Guest
damn it...That was Scarlet up there.
Sep 18 2008 11:46 pm   #17Guest
Yeah, Scarlet, I think he kept letting Harmony in because she was so easy and eager to please. She does want things, but she's also easily distracted, and she has no problem going shopping or eating by herself, so really, a low-maintenance girlfriend.
As a high school girl, she could have gone two ways - the girl that's easy that no one wants a relationship with; or the girl that boys would jump, except that she's too annoying and vapid, so they won't. I don't see Harmony being shy about losing her virginity in high school, but I do think she probably didn't have a boyfriend. She's so player bait, you know? Standard football player date that might have even lost it at the Prom, the character was such a cliche before becoming a vampire.

CM