BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

Forever: Episode Discussion

Nov 04 2008 05:43 pm   #1sosa lola

- Nice that Buffy has Giles, Xander and Willow helping her out with the funeral arrangements.

- While I do hate how they made Hank the absentee father who parties around and doesn't ask about his daughters, you have to give the writers the credit for how gradual it happened. Right after the divorce, Hank would visit on the weekends. Then it was limited to summer vacations in LA. Then he only remembered her on her birthday by sending her flowers and presents… until Buffy slipped out of his mind completely as he got too engrossed in his own life.

- Poor Dawn, wanting get away from any reminder of her mother. Why did she choose to stay at Willow's specifically? Did she already plan on finding a spell to bring back her mother?

- Willow and her mom had worked out their differences, seeing as she's been visiting her a lot lately. 

- On the other hand, there's no hope for Xander to work things out with his parents. He'd prefer going to Willow's mother instead of "the scary people". Makes me wonder if Little Xander used to think of Willow's mom as a mother-figure, I assume there were lots of sleepovers at Willow's house when they were kids.

- Cute how Willow tries to break the tension between Xander and Spike just like how Xander usually tries to break the tension between Willow and Anya.

- Xander is so hostile, no big shock, especially after they had learned about Spike's 'obsession' with Buffy that resulted to chaining and stalking her. Willow seems to have loosened up after her aggressive attitude in I Was Made to Love You.

- SPIKE: Care? Joyce was the only one of the lot of you that I could stand.

Poor Spike. After the way the Scoobies treated him when he had been into the Magic Box, including Willow and Dawn, I don't blame him for saying that Joyce was the only woman nice to him.

- Good having Willow find out that Spike left no card and loved Xander's shocked expression and Willow's sympathetic one.

- Angel's arrival was the highlight of the episode for me. I'm not a Bangel fan, but I loved that bit. So amazing to see him swinging by and showing his support, my heart melted when they held hands.

- Where will Tara's wisdom go in S6 when Willow's gonna want to bring back Buffy?

- Willow's character is built on helping and pleasing others, most of her actions –questionable as they are- start from good intentions. When she gives Dawn the book to how to raise the dead, all she wanted was to help Dawn. Sadly she doesn't consider the consequences of her actions.

- BUFFY: I can stick wood in vampires ... but Mom was the strong one in real life. She always knew how to make things better ... just what to say.

That's what I've been noticing so far. Buffy had always been living off her mother, never facing the demands of adult life. Xander and Willow, on the other hand, seemed to be more aware of how to handle real life. Xander because he was forced to immediately after high school and Willow because she likes to research that kind of stuff, she was the most knowledgeable of adult life when they were in high school because she liked reading. It's time for Buffy to step up and earn her place in the adult world.

- When Angel suggested he'd stay in town for as much as Buffy needs and she says "Forever"… I just feel so sorry for her. I believe she'd have done the same if it was Riley. I mean the conversation would be different, but the feeling of intimacy and safeness will probably be the same. 

- This episode is kinda contradicting what's gonna happen in S6… first Tara is so anti-resurrection here and then she's okay with it in S6. And now Spike wants to help Dawn bring Joyce back and he was against bringing Buffy back in S6… what? Maybe… the reason Tara was okay about bringing Buffy back is because Willow wants it? She has this blind-love-trust toward Willow, she almost worships her, so she probably doesn't doubt that Willow knows what she was doing. As for Spike, perhaps it isn't the fact that the gang brought Buffy back that upset him, he's upset because they did it without him? *Needs to watch S6 to understand more*

- Awww, Giles is listening to the same song he and Joyce were listening to in Band Candy. He really cared about her and I don't mean romantically.

- DAWN: You don't have to be all nice to me. I know why you're doing this.
SPIKE: Do you now? Enlighten me.
DAWN: (frowns, stops walking) Spike, I'm not stupid. You're, like, stalking my sister. (Spike stops, turns to look at her) You'd do anything to get in good with her.

If Dawn doesn't trust Spike, then I'm not shocked about Xander's rude-burst earlier. Everybody seems to hate Spike lately. Nice follow-up to the events of I Was Made to Love You.

- DOC: I know you.
SPIKE: I don't think so, mate.
DOC: No, no, you're that guy, that, that guy, hangs around down at the corner mart. (Spike looks confused) Big into dominoes, aren't you?
SPIKE: Can't say as I am. Look, we came here because- (stops because Doc is laughing)
DOC: That's crazy, isn't it? I mean, I, I, I'd swear, you were that guy. (Dawn looks nervous) I mean, your hair's a different color and you're a vampire, but uh, other than that...

Does Doc really know Spike or is he delirious?

- Loved Spike's protectiveness toward Dawn when Doc snapped a single hair off her head, adorable.

- If someone told me that the resurrection spell won't bring my mom exactly the same, I'd have dropped the idea entirely. Why would I want my mom back if she won't be the same?

- I love how Dawn has Buffy's bravery and stubbornness, though I'd argue she's braver than Buffy seeing as she lacks the supernatural strength.

- I can't blame Dawn for loving Spike so much after this episode. He's so adorable. I want a Spike of my own.

- Tsk, tsk at Willow. Already lying to your girlfriend.

- BUFFY: No. Now, Tara told me that these spells go bad all the time. People come back ... wrong.

Foreshadow! I wonder if Joyce's wrong is the same wrong as Buffy's… would be interesting if someone wrote a fic where Dawn didn't tear the picture apart.

- So that's why Dawn was being a brat earlier and wanted to stay at Willow's, because Buffy had been unable to look at her and was ignoring her, not to mention appearing like her clinical self about Joyce's death. Probably because Buffy was so scared about the responsibility waiting for her.

- Sigh, Buffy's need to appear strong in front of everybody… it's the reason for her suffering. It's okay if she doesn't know how to be a grownup, Giles and her friends will help her, she doesn't have to be strong all the time. Nothing bad about admitting a weakness in something.

- It's nice in the end, how it was Dawn who took care of Buffy and not the other way around. "How about instead of you taking care of me, we take care of each other?" Well said, Riley.
 

Nov 04 2008 07:31 pm   #2Guest
This episode is kinda contradicting what's gonna happen in S6… first Tara is so anti-resurrection here and then she's okay with it in S6. And now Spike wants to help Dawn bring Joyce back and he was against bringing Buffy back in S6… what? Maybe… the reason Tara was okay about bringing Buffy back is because Willow wants it? She has this blind-love-trust toward Willow, she almost worships her, so she probably doesn't doubt that Willow knows what she was doing. As for Spike, perhaps it isn't the fact that the gang brought Buffy back that upset him, he's upset because they did it without him? *Needs to watch S6 to understand more*
There was speculation that Tara, along with Xander was against it, but that Willow did one of her fancy spells to make them complacent.  Again, it's just speculation, but an interesting theory.  Then again, maybe her "My best friend is trapped in a hell dimension!  We have to save her!" was convincing enough.

Spike wasn't against Buffy back--he was hurt that they left him out of it.  He tells Xander that Willow thought that if any of Buffy came back wrong, and that they'd have to destroy what they made, that he'd stand in there way.  "If any of that was Buffy..." damn, can't recall the exact quote, but he basically felt excluded, and that Willow had an ulterior motive for keeping him in the dark on it.

~Scarlet
Nov 04 2008 08:12 pm   #3sosa lola
There was speculation that Tara, along with Xander was against it, but that Willow did one of her fancy spells to make them complacent. Again, it's just speculation, but an interesting theory. Then again, maybe her "My best friend is trapped in a hell dimension! We have to save her!" was convincing enough.

LOL about the spell, doubt it though :D

I remember Xander being against it. As for Tara, I remember her saying that it's wrong and then questioning Xander and Anya's willingness to help them bring Buffy back, but she didn't seem to be against bringing Buffy back. I guess we'll have to wait until we reach the S6 rewatch.

Spike wasn't against Buffy back--he was hurt that they left him out of it. He tells Xander that Willow thought that if any of Buffy came back wrong, and that they'd have to destroy what they made, that he'd stand in there way. "If any of that was Buffy..." damn, can't recall the exact quote, but he basically felt excluded, and that Willow had an ulterior motive for keeping him in the dark on it.

That's what I think, too. I guess he's more upset about being left out than the actual resurrection.
Nov 04 2008 09:05 pm   #4Guest
I always got the implication from this ep that the spell would basically raise Joyce as a zombie......maybe a zombie that can talk, but definitely not human.
This is when Spike starts going with Dawn on her schemes to keep her safe. Again, he's the only one that doesn't treat her like a cross between a five-year-old and a puppy. Dawn can work out her grief with him......and if she raises something he has to kill, he'll do that, too.

I'm sure Willow did whatever she had to, to get them to come along with the resurrection spell. She's quite comfortable with the Lethe's Bramble by the first time we see her do it.

CM
Nov 04 2008 09:48 pm   #5Scarlet Ibis
I always got the implication from this ep that the spell would basically raise Joyce as a zombie...
Yeah, that and Buffy didn't die of natural causes, so she had a leg up, so to speak in regards to being resurrected.

I'm sure Willow did whatever she had to, to get them to come along with the resurrection spell. She's quite comfortable with the Lethe's Bramble by the first time we see her do it.
I agree--she already had the little twig thing needed on hand that night we first see her use it.  No spell book or research needed...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 04 2008 10:35 pm   #6slaymesoftly
I completely had the impression that Dawn had raised a zombie. I believe that's what we were meant to believe.  Dawn's spell, whatever it was, was very different from all the black magics that Willow went through to bring Buffy back. The difference between the spells and the results could be just one of those writer brain farts that are so common on the show, but there are differences; not the least of which is that the first one was done by a non-witchy teenager, and the second one required a very powerful witch and three helpers.
I suspect Willow just bullied them into helping her, using the "Buffy's in hell" argument. I hadn't thought about Spike being upset not to be included - but it's certainly possible that he would have been fine with it if he'd been included. At least until he learned where Buffy was and how unhappy she was about being back.  When does he use the "magic always has consequences" line?  That would be key to when and if he agreed with what they'd done.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 04 2008 11:12 pm   #7Scarlet Ibis
I completely had the impression that Dawn had raised a zombie.
Totally--they do a close up on her feet, and it was that "crazy zombie walk" that you see in movies.  You know--overtly stilted.

I hadn't thought about Spike being upset not to be included - but it's certainly possible that he would have been fine with it if he'd been included. At least until he learned where Buffy was and how unhappy she was about being back. When does he use the "magic always has consequences" line? That would be key to when and if he agreed with what they'd done.
His biggest thing was being excluded, though he does mention the consequences of magic (though honestly, I'm not sure why.  It didn't really fit with what the rest of what he was saying, except for the hypothetical point of Buffy coming back wrong, and him not caring about it). 

Here's the full exchange:

SPIKE: You didn't tell me. You brought her back and you didn't tell me.
XANDER: Well, now you know.
SPIKE: I worked beside you all summer.
XANDER: We didn't tell you. It was just ... we didn't, okay?
SPIKE: Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out.
XANDER: What are you talking about? Willow wouldn't do that.
SPIKE: (sarcastic) Oh. Is that right?
XANDER: Look. You're just covering. Don't tell me you're not happy. Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence.
SPIKE: (stalks off) That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences. Always!
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 04 2008 11:30 pm   #8Eowyn315
Where will Tara's wisdom go in S6 when Willow's gonna want to bring back Buffy?
Well, it seems she still has it: "It is wrong. It's against all the laws of nature, and practically impossible to do, but it's what we agreed to." My read of the conversation in "Bargaining" is that she had all the same doubts as she does here, but because of the differences in the situation - Buffy's the Slayer, her death wasn't natural, they think she's in hell - she thinks there's a chance that it will work, so she goes along with Willow's plan.

As for Spike, perhaps it isn't the fact that the gang brought Buffy back that upset him, he's upset because they did it without him?
I think Spike is conflicted about it. He wants Buffy back, but he knows there will be costs and consequences. He also knows himself - if he thought there was a possibility he could have her again, he wouldn't be able to help himself, wouldn't be able to resist the chance to have her back, even to the extent of not being able to kill whatever they brought back if it wasn't really Buffy. I think, just like Tara, he knows it's wrong, but he could be convinced to do it anyway.

Does Doc really know Spike or is he delirious?
That bit has always struck me as weird. I would assume Doc is just delirious, but since we see in "The Gift" that he's not really what he appears to be, who knows.

Why would I want my mom back if she won't be the same?
Because something is better than nothing? If someone said, "Your mom will be a zombie," well, probably not, but when the options are "not exactly like she was" or nothing at all, I think it'd be tempting. Dawn has to pretty desperately want her mother back to even consider the spell in the first place, so I don't think something like that would put her off too much.

Foreshadow! I wonder if Joyce's wrong is the same wrong as Buffy's… would be interesting if someone wrote a fic where Dawn didn't tear the picture apart.
I really doubt that it is. I agree, Dawn's spell probably raised a zombie or something similar, not even close to the way Buffy came back. And someone DID write a fic about that - I just can't remember who.

There was speculation that Tara, along with Xander was against it, but that Willow did one of her fancy spells to make them complacent.
I really, really doubt it. I think Willow would have been convincing enough without having to resort to magic. They all want Buffy back, and there are extenuating circumstances, as far as they can tell. Besides, we see from their conversations in "Bargaining" that they have doubts, but they've talked themselves into this. I think if Willow had done a spell, she'd just make them totally complacent, and no one would have argued with her at all (or, if they started to argue, we'd see her flick her hand and they'd be complacent again).

The difference between the spells and the results could be just one of those writer brain farts that are so common on the show, but there are differences
I am usually the first to point out a writer brain fart, lol, but I don't think this is one of them. There are too many differences between the spells - aside from the one you mentioned, the ingredients are completely different, as is the set-up of the spell. It seems like Dawn just opened up the book to the first spell she could find, while Willow selected a spell that she thought suited the situation (mystical death, "warrior of the people" ) and made sure it was likely to work.

When does he use the "magic always has consequences" line? That would be key to when and if he agreed with what they'd done.
He says it right after Xander says, "Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike responds with, "That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences." To be honest, it kind of comes out of nowhere in the conversation, and seems to be a set-up for the whole "hitchhiker demon" situation that's coming up, since at this point, Spike doesn't actually know of any consequences, but he says it like a "look what you've done!" accusation rather than a warning that consequences might be coming. Maybe James got the line read wrong or something.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 05 2008 01:10 am   #9Scarlet Ibis
He says it right after Xander says, "Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike responds with, "That's the thing about magic. There's always consequences." To be honest, it kind of comes out of nowhere in the conversation, and seems to be a set-up for the whole "hitchhiker demon" situation that's coming up, since at this point, Spike doesn't actually know of any consequences, but he says it like a "look what you've done!" accusation rather than a warning that consequences might be coming. Maybe James got the line read wrong or something.
Though I addressed this already, I do think the line "there's always consequences,"was the writer's simply foreshadowing to the hitchhiker showing up, and nothing more.  I think it was a crap way to insert it, though, since Spike basically says he wouldn't give a piss about the consequences if it meant having Buffy back, but hey, they (the writers) weren't perfect.  Especially with that season.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 05 2008 01:30 am   #10Eowyn315
Yeah, I was still typing when you posted. :-P I think maybe it was supposed to come off as a warning - Xander says, "Tell me you aren't happy she's back," and Spike's trying to say, "Of course I'm happy about it, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, because there could be consequences."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 05 2008 02:55 am   #11slaymesoftly
I agree. I totally got that Spike was speaking from the pov of a demon who'd been around and didn't care much for magic when he said "there are always consequences". It didn't jar me at all.  He wasn't saying he wasn't happy about it, just upset that they hadn't consulted him and maybe a bit worried about what those consequences might be.
And the consequences range from the piggybacking demon, to Buffy's slight change that makes his chip not recognize her, to the rise of the First Evil in the next season. 
It's hard to know sometimes which things in early episodes/seasons are foreshadowing and which are just coincidentally pointing to something that happens later.  I think it would be fun to know how the thought processes went while the show was being written. Did some writers go back and look at earlier episodes or seasons and think "hey, I can use that throw-away scene to give me an arc for this episode" or did they (more likely Joss who would be the one with the whole show arc in his mysterious brain) stick random things in early on, knowing there was likely to be an episode in a later season which could refer back to them? It would be interesting to know how much of what we wank over is intentional and how much of it was just filler for a scene.  I think there's a tendancy to credit Joss (et al) with a lot more planning and coordination than was probably actually there.  Think of how often we write a fic and readers find things in it that we never gave a thought to.  Then imagine how often that kind of thing can happen when you have multiple writers, directors and actors working quickly to put out a show per week and filming in pieces to be put together later.
ETA  I knew there was something else I wanted to say.  Re Buffy coming back really wrong - I have read at least one (old and dark) fic set in a world in which that is what happened. A heartbroken Spike is caring for a feral, completely wacko version of Buffy - trying to keep her fed, clothed and safe from her Watcher and others who want to kill her again. It's quite a gripping ficlet, as the creature for which he's caring is nothing like Buffy and yet he can't bring himself to put her out of her misery...or his. He has to keep her confined (I forget how - cage, maybe) or she would be out killing people.  I think there may be more than one like set in a world where that happened, but that's the one that sticks in my mind.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Nov 05 2008 11:40 am   #12sosa lola
I think Spike is conflicted about it. He wants Buffy back, but he knows there will be costs and consequences.

He knows that here as well. I don't think he wants Joyce back as much as he'd want Buffy, but Doc had warned them about her not coming back exactly the same. It felt weird that he was okay with Dawn raising her mother from the dead, but was all "Magic has consequences" in S6.

Nov 05 2008 12:00 pm   #13Sotia
Does Doc really know Spike or is he delirious?

Could the doc maybe have meant William?
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Nov 05 2008 02:32 pm   #14Scarlet Ibis
I don't think he wants Joyce back as much as he'd want Buffy, but Doc had warned them about her not coming back exactly the same. It felt weird that he was okay with Dawn raising her mother from the dead
I think that Spike realized that Dawn wanted this so much, that with or without him, she'd find a way to do it.  And since he knew she'd do it regardless, desperate as she was, I think he figured it'd be better that she try with him rather than go it alone.  And he was right--Dawn more than likely would have been killed trying to get a Gohra egg on her own.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 06 2008 01:17 am   #15Eowyn315
Could the doc maybe have meant William?
I don't think William's been hanging around at the corner mart playing dominoes lately, so even if he had met William back in the 1800s, it still makes Doc sound delusional...
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 06 2008 07:15 am   #16Guest
I'm pretty sure Doc was playing at being the eccentric old man with a magic store, to appear as harmless as possible, to hide his true nature.

CM
Nov 06 2008 06:08 pm   #17goldenusagi
I thought it was weird that Spike jumped on Dawn's "raise Joyce" plan just like that.  Yeah, maybe he was afraid she would do it anyway and get hurt, but he didn't try to talk her out of it, even a little.  He even says "I hope it's just dirt you're after. If the spell calls for anything more than that, you're into zombie territory, and that's bad news."  He has to know that this can't end well.  I think he's been around and seen enough magic to know that it won't be Joyce that comes back.  (Although, Dawn no longer seems to care that he chained up Buffy.  She mentions that he's stalking her, but she's not mad like she was in I Was Made to Love You.)

This is also the episode where we get Spike's line about Joyce: "She always had a nice cuppa for me."  While I don't think they'd been hanging out since Lovers Walk, it seemed that for him to use 'always,' he had to have seen her (at her house) besides that one time in Crush.  But that still doesn't leave much time between Checkpoint (where they seemed awkward) and Crush.  And I'm guessing Joyce didn't see him after Crush.
Nov 06 2008 07:36 pm   #18Eowyn315
I thought it was weird that Spike jumped on Dawn's "raise Joyce" plan just like that. Yeah, maybe he was afraid she would do it anyway and get hurt, but he didn't try to talk her out of it, even a little.
To be honest, I do think it's a little inconsistent, but I can fanwank some reasons why it might be different with Dawn. The Scoobies are adults and had clearly thought through their plan before going ahead, but Dawn is young and the grief is immediate, and therefore she's less likely to think logically and responsibly, or be swayed by consequences - we see that even "your mother might not come back exactly the same" doesn't dissuade her, so maybe Spike figured he'd be wasting his breath trying to talk her out of it. If he had tried to talk her out of it first, she might not have accepted his help, thinking he didn't fully support her and would try to screw things up. She might've even pretended to agree just to get him off her back, and then gone ahead and did it anyway by herself.

Plus, as has been mentioned, he knows it's better if Dawn has his protection than doing it alone, and he also probably figured that he could kill anything that came back, whereas he admits he wouldn't have been able to kill Buffy.

While I don't think they'd been hanging out since Lovers Walk, it seemed that for him to use 'always,' he had to have seen her (at her house) besides that one time in Crush.
Is it possible that maybe he's exaggerating the situation? Maybe he's gone over there a handful of times - Lover's Walk, Crush, and maybe one or two times in between that we didn't see - but he says "always" like they have a relationship to emphasize the "I like her, and not you" argument he's trying to make to Willow and Xander. We know he's already exaggerated when he says that Joyce is the only one of them he can stand - obviously, that's not true, since he loves Buffy, and he cares about Dawn, and I'd go so far as to include Willow as well, since he liked her enough to think about turning her. You generally don't turn someone you can't stand. So maybe he's (either intentionally or unintentionally) making his relationship with Joyce out to be more than it is to prove that he's not just there to score points.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 06 2008 08:47 pm   #19Scarlet Ibis
While I don't think they'd been hanging out since Lovers Walk, it seemed that for him to use 'always,' he had to have seen her (at her house) besides that one time in Crush.
You have to remember that even though it's only been a few eps between "Checkpoint" and "Crush," more time than that has passed.  How much time, I don't know, but more time than that (and I don't mean the physcial dates in which the eps aired--days pass within one ep alone, not even including the distance of real time). 

Also, the awkwardness we see in "Checkpoint" is from her being in Spike's home--a crypt in a cemetery--for the first time.  As nice as she is and as much as she knows, I seriously doubt that's something she'd done before.   We have to consider that when they did see each other, it was probably always in Joyce's house.  I wouldn't put it past Spike just randomly showing up because he was bored (or lonely), and it's clear in "Lover's Walk" that Joyce is an easy ear for him to bend.  So it's possible that they did in fact have cuppas together post LW but pre-"Checkpoint.  Spike has a lot of pride, and automatically went on the defensive (I think).  Joyce was polite, and wouldn't send him away or complain about him being there.  Who knows--she may have even given him decorating tips before she left ;)
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 06 2008 08:57 pm   #20Scarlet Ibis
He has to know that this can't end well. I think he's been around and seen enough magic to know that it won't be Joyce that comes back.
Yeah, but he also knows her pain--she looks incredibly anguished when he stumbles across her.  I'm guessing that helped to trump everything else.

(Although, Dawn no longer seems to care that he chained up Buffy. She mentions that he's stalking her, but she's not mad like she was in I Was Made to Love You.)
Well, when Joyce dies, it pretty much becomes pass the Dawn.  Buffy can't deal, so she passes the buck of watching Dawn to Willow and Tara.  Willow and Tara become busy, so then she's passed off to Giles (and by default, Anya).  She's said before that Spike was the only one who didn't talk down to her, and she enjoyed his company.  Also, she's young.  I don't see why she wouldn't overlook all that (keep in mind that Willow overlooked Spike trying to kill her, and she was okay).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 07 2008 02:41 am   #21goldenusagi
Also, she's young. I don't see why she wouldn't overlook all that (keep in mind that Willow overlooked Spike trying to kill her, and she was okay).
Oh, I'm not saying that Dawn should hold a grudge.  But she's the first one to start acting normal around Spike again.  The other Scoobies hang onto the 'chaining up Buffy' for longer.  Understandably, I suppose.
Nov 07 2008 02:53 am   #22Eowyn315
How much time, I don't know, but more time than that (and I don't mean the physcial dates in which the eps aired--days pass within one ep alone, not even including the distance of real time).
Why are you assuming that a lot of time has passed? Even if you ignore the airdates (though there's no good reason to do so), there's nothing in that stretch of episodes to indicate that more time passes than a few weeks. In fact, given that topics of conversation carry over from the end of one episode to the beginning of the next (the Scoobies are still talking about the Council's info on Glory at the beginning of "Blood Ties," and they're still pretty hostile to Spike about his crush on Buffy in "I Was Made To Love You" ), I'd say they occur pretty close together.

So it's possible that they did in fact have cuppas together post LW but pre-"Checkpoint.
I disagree. In "Checkpoint," Joyce and Spike discover that they both like "Passions." Considering that it's appointment television for Spike, I can't imagine that never coming up in conversation if they'd been having regular chats. I also think her awkwardness is about more than just being in a crypt for the first time (and, actually, it's NOT her first time in a cemetery, since she tried to tag along on patrol with Buffy in season 3). I don't think they spent time together between "Lover's Walk" and "Checkpoint."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 07 2008 03:09 am   #23Scarlet Ibis
Why are you assuming that a lot of time has passed?
I didn't say a lot, but it's possible it was more time than the actual air dates.  I don't see how that's not a reasonable assumption.

In "Checkpoint," Joyce and Spike discover that they both like "Passions." Considering that it's appointment television for Spike, I can't imagine that never coming up in conversation if they'd been having regular chats. I also think her awkwardness is about more than just being in a crypt for the first time (and, actually, it's NOT her first time in a cemetery, since she tried to tag along on patrol with Buffy in season 3).

I don't see why it would come up--clearly if Spike has a "Passions" appointment, he's not leaving the crypt until it's over.   And I don't see Spike discussing "Passions" out of the blue.  We only learn that he watches it if it's actually on...Joyce and Spike could talk about a hundred things that don't involve television at all.

And season three, I'm assuming you're referring to "Gingerbread."  Wasn't that a park and not a cemetery?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 07 2008 04:32 am   #24Eowyn315
I don't see how that's not a reasonable assumption.
Because the actions of the characters indicate that not a lot of time has passed? In the first scene of "Blood Ties," the Scoobies are still digesting the information that Glory is a god as if they haven't discussed it yet. I get the impression that this is their first Scooby meeting since the Council left town. Why would they wait a week or more before discussing what they know about Glory and going through their options?

Similarly, when Spike tries to be friendly with Buffy in the Bronze, he thinks that his helping fight Glory has earned him some respect from Buffy, but judging by her reaction, this is clearly the first time he's tried hanging out with her since then. If a lot of time had passed since the fight, I don't see why Spike would bring it up as a reason why he's being friendly.

And finally, in the opening scene of "I Was Made To Love You," Buffy is still freaking out about Spike having a crush on her, like it's still fresh in her mind. Again, not the kind of thing you'd expect from her a week or more afterward. She might still be disgusted about it, but not to the extent of accidentally beating up puffy Xander because she's so intent on venting.

And I don't see Spike discussing "Passions" out of the blue.
Why not? He's certainly not shy about admitting he watches it. We mostly hear him complaining about how he's missing it, but why couldn't it come up in conversation (which you apparently think he's had several of) with someone else who also clearly enjoys it? We're all here talking about a TV show we like, aren't we?

And season three, I'm assuming you're referring to "Gingerbread." Wasn't that a park and not a cemetery?
Yes, they did find the kid in the park.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 07 2008 05:14 am   #25Scarlet Ibis
Why not? He's certainly not shy about admitting he watches it.
No, but I'm saying Spike has only brought it up if it's actually on or he's elsewhere and missing it (e.g. Giles' bath tub), so if he were talking with Joyce at her home, I don't see that working its way into the conversation.  And being an avid "Passions" watcher, I don't see him not making sure he was at his crypt to watch it (since Spike clearly didn't have a DVR, let alone a VCR).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Nov 07 2008 06:37 am   #26Eowyn315
Okay, you know what? Forget about "Passions," forget about whether or not Joyce has ever been in a crypt before. Just watch the scene.

Watch the scene and tell me that you honestly think that looks like two people who meet regularly for tea and conversation. It's not. It's incredibly awkward. Even if it is your first time in a crypt, that's not how you act around someone you're comfortable and familiar with. It's how you act around someone you've only met three times in your life, and you're not entirely comfortable being around them. It's obvious that neither one of them wants to be there, neither one of them knows what to say. When Spike does bring up "Passions," Joyce jumps on it, like, "Oh, thank goodness, a common interest. Now we have something to talk about," as though she's having trouble making conversation with Spike. Not, "Oh, Spike, I didn't know you liked 'Passions.' How come you never mentioned it during the many times you've come over for tea?"

The bottom line is, they don't act like they've been seeing each other regularly, and one line isn't going to convince me that they have. If there were other "cuppas" besides "Lover's Walk" and "Crush," they happened after "Checkpoint."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 08 2008 12:43 am   #27Scarlet Ibis
The beauty of an open forum is that all are entitled to their personal opinions.  Now it is your personal opinion that Joyce and Spike never had a cup of chocolate together pre "Checkpoint" excluding "Lover's Walk," and that Joyce was uncomfortable being in Spike's crypt because she was uncomfortable around him.  But it is my personal opinion that Joyce was uncomfortable due to the fact that not only that she had to spend some quality time in a crypt and cemetery, but also that she could possibly be spending the night there as well.  I am not nor did I ever say they had hot chocolate together regularly, but am merely saying that it is a possiblity.  There is no concrete evidence either way, of course, but the information we do have shows that it is possible at being a more probable scenario than not that such an incident could have occurred pre "Checkpoint" and post "Lover's Walk."
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Nov 11 2008 12:06 pm   #28Spikez_tart

okay this is stupid, but I thought that a cuppa only meant tea?

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 11 2008 01:25 pm   #29sosa lola
okay this is stupid, but I thought that a cuppa only meant tea?

Does it mean something else? I also always thought it referes to tea.
Nov 12 2008 02:56 am   #30Spikez_tart
If a cuppa is only tea, then having a cup of cocoa doesn't count which means that Spike visited Joyce and got a cup of tea and more than once.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 12 2008 03:10 am   #31sosa lola
I'm no expert, so maybe a cuppa just means a cuppa, whether it's tea, coffee, milk, chocolate...
Nov 14 2008 04:12 am   #32Spikez_tart
Now that Sosa and I have definitively settled the Great Cuppa Debate, does anyone know where Dawn gets the blood for the spell?  She draws a small circle (in contrast to the gallon or so that Willow brings from killing a fawn.)  Is she cutting herself again?

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 07 2009 01:27 am   #33spikes_wish
Just read the whole thing through again and

okay this is stupid, but I thought that a cuppa only meant tea?

1) a cuppa does normally mean a cup of tea as far as we English are concerned. "Fancy a cuppa?" is only ever in reference to tea. However, the writers may not have known this- they do get some Britishisms wrong -Some of Spike's pronunciations are off and see the English potentials in S7. Joss did so much to give an accurate presentation of older Brits, but British teenagers were just too far out of his reach. So much hard work...shattered. It was like watching the Friends episodes in London all over again. :'(

it seemed that for him to use 'always,' he had to have seen her (at her house) besides that one time in Crush.

2) "She always had a nice cuppa for me"- how many times do we see Spike inside Buffy's house pre-Joyce's death? MAybe he is simply referring to the fact that the few and far between times he went there whilst Joyce was around, she always offered him a cup of tea or hot chocolate.

Now that Sosa and I have definitively settled the Great Cuppa Debate, does anyone know where Dawn gets the blood for the spell?

3) It could have been pigs blood, or cow blood etc, which we know aren't hard to get hold of in Sunnydale. The spell clearly isn't anywhere near as potent or complicated as Willows in season 6.
Apr 07 2009 02:50 am   #34Eowyn315
Spike's been helping her, and he kinda lives off blood. I'd say that's probably where she got it from. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 07 2009 04:16 am   #35Spikez_tart
Don't think cow's blood would cut it, maybe Spike stole some human for her from the hospital. Maybe Miss stickyfingers stole it herself. 

Isn't it interesting that only Willow the Big Bad Wicca was big and bad enough to bring Buffy back, but hey little Miss Dawn pulled it off as a Starter Spell.  Huh.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 07 2009 12:25 pm   #36spikes_wish
I don't think that she did- as Tara points out what Willow did was "nothing like when Dawn tried to bring Mrs Summers back". It looked a little just outside zombie territory to me, or the equivalent to what happens in The Zeppo.
Apr 07 2009 06:08 pm   #37Scarlet Ibis
Actually, the raised from the dead people of "The Zeppo" were much more cognitive than whatever it was Dawn raised.  In fact, it's a shame she didn't have that spell.  Did you see the creepy, stilted zombie walk not-Joyce's feet were making towards the house?

*shivers*
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Apr 08 2009 05:28 am   #38Eowyn315
Don't think cow's blood would cut it, maybe Spike stole some human for her from the hospital.
Willow didn't even need to use human blood for her spell (which actually worked) - she used a fawn's. Why would human blood be necessary for raising what appears to be nothing more than a zombie?

Spike generally drinks pig's blood, anyway, but if he's getting it from a butcher, I would imagine they'd have any domestic farm animal - pig, cow, even chicken.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.