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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
The Weight of the World: Episode Discussion
- When Xander said "you should try it again, Willow," I thought that she was going to do something using magic to talk Buffy out of her stillness, but all she did was talk to her. Xander could have done it, so why was he urging Willow to do it as if Buffy won't be awakened unless it was Willow talking to her? (Funny since it'll be Willow who's gonna help her.)
- SPIKE: She can't just be brain-dead. (paces around behind Xander) I mean ... she's still Buffy, (Willow stands up) somewhere in there, right?
XANDER: Spike, come on, we're not gonna get Dawn back by sittin' around here.
SPIKE: You're not gonna get Dawn back any way you slice it, Harris, it's for Buffy to decide.
What were they arguing about? Am I missing something? It seems that Xander wants the gang to move out of here and Spike doesn't agree. He only takes orders from Buffy and he prefers they stay until they wake Buffy up so she'd make the decision. Is that what they were arguing about?
- Buffy's situation is driving the others' nuts. Spike is so desperate to wake her up and the others look skeptical of his ways to do it. Anya isn't thrilled and Xander explodes when Spike slaps Buffy. Then Xander and Spike start fighting because there's nothing better to do than throw insults at each other.
- I love Willow taking control. I think she'll make a fine leader if she puts her mind into it. She does well here as well as in early S6. She only lacks the confident to do it.
- Spike calls Willow "Will" for the second time. My hearts is all tingles! I love how he's part of the Scoobies here.
- I share Spike's pain in the whole "What do you mean Ben is Glory?" It is so frustrating.
- Glory isn't supposed to feel anything? I don't know, she felt frustrated and upset throughout this season whenever she wasn't able to find the key. She felt anger when Spike insulted her. She felt happiness and excitement when she learned who the key is. She does have feelings. She's not Adam.
- Sweet scene between Willow and Anya, Willow trusting Anya to help and Anya showing concern and care for someone other than Xander.
- It's weird to see five-year-old Buffy being blonde while eight-year-old Buffy being a brunette (Killed by Death). A retcon?
- I'm not sure I'll let my five year old child carry my newborn baby, especially while standing up. It's too risky, especially after little Buffy confessed her jealousy of baby Dawn.
- XANDER: There. How you doing?
GILES: It only hurts while I answer pointless questions.
LOL!! And pets Xander.
- Loved how Xander looks disapprovingly at Spike snatching a blood bag but says nothing.
- How did Spike get his lighter back? The Spander in me demands a scene, one that is snarky and funny. :D
- Thank you for smacking Xander, Spike. I was as bored, too, with the whole not getting that Ben is Glory!
- Did you notice when Spike brushes his fingers against Xander's butt? Squeal!!! :lol:
- At this point, Buffy realizes that the death of her mother isn't what the First Slayer meant by death is her gift, it's Dawn's death that's her gift.
- I never knew that Willow doesn't like dolls, is it after the incident with Sid in S1? Or is it because she's older now, and dolls aren't interesting, anymore.
- YOUNG BUFFY: (giggles) You talk funny.
WILLOW: Yes ... as you'll tell me again when we're older and in chem class.
I don't remember this scene, what episode was it? :)
- Okay, so a sword to the chest doesn't kill Doc but being thrown off a tower does? And if not, it's weird that we never heard from Doc again, he'd make an interesting villain, or at least a monster of the week type of villain.
- Dawn hits Ben because she's afraid he'd gonna turn into Glory soon, because so far, he's been willing to help her.
- I don't really blame Ben for wanting to live, and believing Glory shows that he's as desperate as he is stupid.
- I love that they showed us human emotions with Buffy wanting it all over. Dawn's death may break her and makes her grieve, but at least, it'll all be over. And she knows that she'll move on in the future. She did with so many: her dad, Angel, Riley and her mother. Well, she probably hadn't moved on when it came to her mother's death, but someday she will.
- They should have called this episode "Guilt", they've mentioned this word a hundred of times.
- This is why Buffy lasted this long, she always has someone pulling her back together with a speech. Almost all her friends and boyfriends did it at one or even more times. In this episode, it's Willow.
- I don't think I understood what Giles was saying in the end. Does he mean that they should kill Dawn before Glory opens the portal or that they must let her bleed until she dies for the doors to hell dimensions to close?
Nov 15 2008 05:35 pm #2Scarlet Ibis
What were they arguing about? Am I missing something? It seems that Xander wants the gang to move out of here and Spike doesn't agree. He only takes orders from Buffy and he prefers they stay until they wake Buffy up so she'd make the decision. Is that what they were arguing about?
I think he meant that (excluding the "big gun" Willow), the only chance they had at decently fighting Glory was by having Buffy fight her. Also, she does usually make the battle plans, with contribution from her friends.
Glory isn't supposed to feel anything?
I think she isn't supposed to feel remorse, like a vampire, maybe. That can't be any fun, when you think of it. It's totally assbackwards when your nature is like hers (or a vampires).
- It's weird to see five-year-old Buffy being blonde while eight-year-old Buffy being a brunette (Killed by Death). A retcon?
Um, some kids can start out blonde and end up being brunettes with age. What age, I can't tell you.
- How did Spike get his lighter back?
More than likely something simple--Spike pulls out another cigarette, pats his pockets, then remembers Xander's the last one to have it.
Spike: Harris, you mind giving a fella his lighter back? Kind of hard to smoke without it.
Xander: Was hoping you wouldn't notice--it's easier to breathe when you don't.
(hands Spike the lighter grudgingly)
Spike: (shrugs) Yeah, well, you'll get used it.
Xander: Don't have much of a choice, do I?
Spike: (looks as if he's seriously pondering this)
Nope, can't say that you do.
(lights up, inhales deeply)
And scene :P
At this point, Buffy realizes that the death of her mother isn't what the First Slayer meant by death is her gift, it's Dawn's death that's her gift.
I know that this ties in to Buffy leaping off the tower, but I think the First Slayer meant it in the way that Spike meant it--"Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day." Or, maybe she did mean "death is your gift" in the sense that having a death wish is the only way she could find peace. Of course, it's been a long friggin' time since she'd been a slayer, and she'd be wrong.
I don't really blame Ben for wanting to live, and believing Glory shows that he's as desperate as he is stupid.
Well, I don't see why she wouldn't keep her word there. Ben has been a part of her--I'm sure there's a connection there. I mean, there can't not be one (beyond physical, I mean). So when they were separated, and she was back in full power, she'd probably say to herself, "Why not help the little worm?"
She did with so many: her dad, Angel, Riley and her mother.
Her dad and Riley don't factor in on this equation--they didn't die. They just left. There's no coming back from (human) deaths. Well, no coming back right, anyway.
- I don't think I understood what Giles was saying in the end. Does he mean that they should kill Dawn before Glory opens the portal or that they must let her bleed until she dies for the doors to hell dimensions to close?
I think he meant that once the blood flows, they have to make it stop. I don't think Glory would have inflicted wounds that would allow Dawn to bleed out--she needs time for the portal to open fully (like Doc said--"Shallow cuts" ).
I think he meant that (excluding the "big gun" Willow), the only chance they had at decently fighting Glory was by having Buffy fight her. Also, she does usually make the battle plans, with contribution from her friends.
Glory isn't supposed to feel anything?
I think she isn't supposed to feel remorse, like a vampire, maybe. That can't be any fun, when you think of it. It's totally assbackwards when your nature is like hers (or a vampires).
- It's weird to see five-year-old Buffy being blonde while eight-year-old Buffy being a brunette (Killed by Death). A retcon?
Um, some kids can start out blonde and end up being brunettes with age. What age, I can't tell you.
- How did Spike get his lighter back?
More than likely something simple--Spike pulls out another cigarette, pats his pockets, then remembers Xander's the last one to have it.
Spike: Harris, you mind giving a fella his lighter back? Kind of hard to smoke without it.
Xander: Was hoping you wouldn't notice--it's easier to breathe when you don't.
(hands Spike the lighter grudgingly)
Spike: (shrugs) Yeah, well, you'll get used it.
Xander: Don't have much of a choice, do I?
Spike: (looks as if he's seriously pondering this)
Nope, can't say that you do.
(lights up, inhales deeply)
And scene :P
At this point, Buffy realizes that the death of her mother isn't what the First Slayer meant by death is her gift, it's Dawn's death that's her gift.
I know that this ties in to Buffy leaping off the tower, but I think the First Slayer meant it in the way that Spike meant it--"Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day." Or, maybe she did mean "death is your gift" in the sense that having a death wish is the only way she could find peace. Of course, it's been a long friggin' time since she'd been a slayer, and she'd be wrong.
I don't really blame Ben for wanting to live, and believing Glory shows that he's as desperate as he is stupid.
Well, I don't see why she wouldn't keep her word there. Ben has been a part of her--I'm sure there's a connection there. I mean, there can't not be one (beyond physical, I mean). So when they were separated, and she was back in full power, she'd probably say to herself, "Why not help the little worm?"
She did with so many: her dad, Angel, Riley and her mother.
Her dad and Riley don't factor in on this equation--they didn't die. They just left. There's no coming back from (human) deaths. Well, no coming back right, anyway.
- I don't think I understood what Giles was saying in the end. Does he mean that they should kill Dawn before Glory opens the portal or that they must let her bleed until she dies for the doors to hell dimensions to close?
I think he meant that once the blood flows, they have to make it stop. I don't think Glory would have inflicted wounds that would allow Dawn to bleed out--she needs time for the portal to open fully (like Doc said--"Shallow cuts" ).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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What were they arguing about? Am I missing something? It seems that Xander wants the gang to move out of here and Spike doesn't agree. He only takes orders from Buffy and he prefers they stay until they wake Buffy up so she'd make the decision. Is that what they were arguing about?
I think Spike is saying that Buffy's the only one who can get Dawn back - any plan that Xander and the others come up with is going to fail, because they can't go up against Glory. Of course, recent events have shown that Buffy can't go up against Glory, either, but I guess Spike has faith in her that she'll come up with something. Plus, I do think Buffy should get final say on any plan they come up with, since it is her sister's life at stake.
I love Willow taking control. I think she'll make a fine leader if she puts her mind into it. She does well here as well as in early S6. She only lacks the confident to do it.
She's had some great take-charge moments in earlier seasons, too. Like in "Reptile Boy," when she totally chews out Giles and Angel and then is like, "Okay, I don't feel better now, and we've gotta help Buffy." Or in "Becoming," when she puts on her resolve face and starts telling people what to do to try the spell again. She does seem like the natural second-in-command of the group, probably both because she's closest to Buffy and almost as powerful. And by the beginning of season six, I don't think she lacks confidence in anything (and not necessarily in a good way).
It's weird to see five-year-old Buffy being blonde while eight-year-old Buffy being a brunette (Killed by Death). A retcon?
Scarlet's right, some kids start out with lighter hair, but then it darkens as they get older. From that ubiquitous source of all knowledge, Wikipedia: "Blonde hair is common in Caucasian infants and children, so much so that the term "baby blonde" is often used for very light-colored hair. Babies may be born with blonde hair even among groups where adults rarely have blonde hair, although such natal hair usually falls out quickly. Blonde hair tends to turn darker with age, and many children born blonde turn light, medium, or dark brunette before or during their teenage years."
At this point, Buffy realizes that the death of her mother isn't what the First Slayer meant by death is her gift, it's Dawn's death that's her gift.
I don't think Buffy ever believed that the First Slayer was referring to her mother's death. When she first heard it, she thought it meant that the Slayer was just a killer. In this episode, I think she's taking it to mean that she's supposed to kill Dawn, but she's still wrong. What the First Slayer was trying to tell her is that Buffy's death can be a gift - to Dawn, saving her life, and to the world, preventing it from being destroyed. Remember, this came in the whole discussion about love, and how Buffy is full of love. She does what she does in "The Gift" (hey, look at that) out of love for Dawn.
I think the First Slayer meant it in the way that Spike meant it--"Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day."
I don't think so... because what does that have to do with love? The First Slayer says, "Love will bring you to your gift... Death is your gift." How does love bring her to slaying? Duty brings her to slaying, that's why she does it. "Death is your gift" isn't about killing demons (though Buffy assumes it is at first). It's about what's she's going to do in "The Gift" - sacrifice herself out of love for Dawn. But of course, she doesn't understand that until she's on the tower.
I never knew that Willow doesn't like dolls, is it after the incident with Sid in S1? Or is it because she's older now, and dolls aren't interesting, anymore.
I don't think Willow means she really doesn't like dolls. I think she's just saying that because she's annoyed with Buffy that they're going around in circles. She doesn't want to encourage Young Buffy to talk about her doll (or convince Willow to play) because she's there for a reason, and the doll won't help her figure out what Buffy's problem is.
I don't remember this scene, what episode was it?
It wasn't in a scene. It's just supposed to be a cutesy reference, probably to sometime around when they first met, and Buffy observed that Willow talked funny (and then proceeded to absorb all of her weird speech patterns).
I don't think I understood what Giles was saying in the end. Does he mean that they should kill Dawn before Glory opens the portal or that they must let her bleed until she dies for the doors to hell dimensions to close?
I think he means if Glory starts the ritual, the only way to stop it would be to kill Dawn. He's not saying they should kill Dawn before it starts (wasn't that exactly what they were trying to stop the Knights of Byzantium from doing?), just that Glory's going to want to bleed Dawn slow, and they can make it stop by killing her quickly.
It's not a very good way to kick off the discussion - if I were him, I'd have started with "Our goal should be to keep the ritual from starting," but either that hadn't occurred to them yet, or they just wanted to end the episode with "Kill Dawn" for the shock factor, and to tie in with Buffy's fears in this episode.
I think Spike is saying that Buffy's the only one who can get Dawn back - any plan that Xander and the others come up with is going to fail, because they can't go up against Glory. Of course, recent events have shown that Buffy can't go up against Glory, either, but I guess Spike has faith in her that she'll come up with something. Plus, I do think Buffy should get final say on any plan they come up with, since it is her sister's life at stake.
I love Willow taking control. I think she'll make a fine leader if she puts her mind into it. She does well here as well as in early S6. She only lacks the confident to do it.
She's had some great take-charge moments in earlier seasons, too. Like in "Reptile Boy," when she totally chews out Giles and Angel and then is like, "Okay, I don't feel better now, and we've gotta help Buffy." Or in "Becoming," when she puts on her resolve face and starts telling people what to do to try the spell again. She does seem like the natural second-in-command of the group, probably both because she's closest to Buffy and almost as powerful. And by the beginning of season six, I don't think she lacks confidence in anything (and not necessarily in a good way).
It's weird to see five-year-old Buffy being blonde while eight-year-old Buffy being a brunette (Killed by Death). A retcon?
Scarlet's right, some kids start out with lighter hair, but then it darkens as they get older. From that ubiquitous source of all knowledge, Wikipedia: "Blonde hair is common in Caucasian infants and children, so much so that the term "baby blonde" is often used for very light-colored hair. Babies may be born with blonde hair even among groups where adults rarely have blonde hair, although such natal hair usually falls out quickly. Blonde hair tends to turn darker with age, and many children born blonde turn light, medium, or dark brunette before or during their teenage years."
At this point, Buffy realizes that the death of her mother isn't what the First Slayer meant by death is her gift, it's Dawn's death that's her gift.
I don't think Buffy ever believed that the First Slayer was referring to her mother's death. When she first heard it, she thought it meant that the Slayer was just a killer. In this episode, I think she's taking it to mean that she's supposed to kill Dawn, but she's still wrong. What the First Slayer was trying to tell her is that Buffy's death can be a gift - to Dawn, saving her life, and to the world, preventing it from being destroyed. Remember, this came in the whole discussion about love, and how Buffy is full of love. She does what she does in "The Gift" (hey, look at that) out of love for Dawn.
I think the First Slayer meant it in the way that Spike meant it--"Death is your art. You make it with your hands, day after day."
I don't think so... because what does that have to do with love? The First Slayer says, "Love will bring you to your gift... Death is your gift." How does love bring her to slaying? Duty brings her to slaying, that's why she does it. "Death is your gift" isn't about killing demons (though Buffy assumes it is at first). It's about what's she's going to do in "The Gift" - sacrifice herself out of love for Dawn. But of course, she doesn't understand that until she's on the tower.
I never knew that Willow doesn't like dolls, is it after the incident with Sid in S1? Or is it because she's older now, and dolls aren't interesting, anymore.
I don't think Willow means she really doesn't like dolls. I think she's just saying that because she's annoyed with Buffy that they're going around in circles. She doesn't want to encourage Young Buffy to talk about her doll (or convince Willow to play) because she's there for a reason, and the doll won't help her figure out what Buffy's problem is.
I don't remember this scene, what episode was it?
It wasn't in a scene. It's just supposed to be a cutesy reference, probably to sometime around when they first met, and Buffy observed that Willow talked funny (and then proceeded to absorb all of her weird speech patterns).
I don't think I understood what Giles was saying in the end. Does he mean that they should kill Dawn before Glory opens the portal or that they must let her bleed until she dies for the doors to hell dimensions to close?
I think he means if Glory starts the ritual, the only way to stop it would be to kill Dawn. He's not saying they should kill Dawn before it starts (wasn't that exactly what they were trying to stop the Knights of Byzantium from doing?), just that Glory's going to want to bleed Dawn slow, and they can make it stop by killing her quickly.
It's not a very good way to kick off the discussion - if I were him, I'd have started with "Our goal should be to keep the ritual from starting," but either that hadn't occurred to them yet, or they just wanted to end the episode with "Kill Dawn" for the shock factor, and to tie in with Buffy's fears in this episode.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 15 2008 06:51 pm #4TammyDevil666
Did you notice when Spike brushes his fingers against Xander's butt? Squeal!!!
Ooooh, when was this? How did I miss it? I may have to go back to this episode...lol!
Ooooh, when was this? How did I miss it? I may have to go back to this episode...lol!
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Nov 15 2008 07:33 pm #5Scarlet Ibis
I don't think so... because what does that have to do with love? The First Slayer says, "Love will bring you to your gift... Death is your gift." How does love bring her to slaying? Duty brings her to slaying, that's why she does it. "Death is your gift" isn't about killing demons (though Buffy assumes it is at first). It's about what's she's going to do in "The Gift" - sacrifice herself out of love for Dawn. But of course, she doesn't understand that until she's on the tower.
I forgot about that part. And you're right. But I still don't get it--death is her gift to who? Dawn? Why should Dawn matter to the First Slayer? If the mission is always first, then that makes no sense that her death would be a gift, since she wouldn't be there anymore to do the mission (and until Faith dies, there'd be no active slayer). One could argue the gift is for the world, but she doesn't have to die in order to say it. Not if Dawn had sacrificed herself.
I forgot about that part. And you're right. But I still don't get it--death is her gift to who? Dawn? Why should Dawn matter to the First Slayer? If the mission is always first, then that makes no sense that her death would be a gift, since she wouldn't be there anymore to do the mission (and until Faith dies, there'd be no active slayer). One could argue the gift is for the world, but she doesn't have to die in order to say it. Not if Dawn had sacrificed herself.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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But I still don't get it--death is her gift to who? Dawn? Why should Dawn matter to the First Slayer?
Yes, I think death is her gift to Dawn. And Dawn doesn't matter to the First Slayer, but she matters to Buffy. Buffy came to the First Slayer with questions about love, so the First Slayer answered her - and the answer is that she is so full of love that she will sacrifice herself for her sister. I don't think the First Slayer is saying that because she wants to save Dawn - she probably doesn't care about Dawn one way or the other - she's just saying what Buffy is going to do.
If the mission is always first, then that makes no sense that her death would be a gift, since she wouldn't be there anymore to do the mission (and until Faith dies, there'd be no active slayer).
Well, we've never heard the First Slayer talk about "the mission" - that was a Nikki/Robin Wood thing, "the mission is what matters." But isn't that what a Slayer does? She fights until she dies, and then the mission is passed to someone else. Buffy is already an anomaly, and it's only natural that she would die by sacrificing herself to save the world. So it's not like the First Slayer is telling Buffy to do something that every other Slayer before her hasn't done. (Though I don't think the First Slayer is actually telling Buffy to do anything. I think she's just saying what's going to happen, in essence predicting the future.)
Yes, I think death is her gift to Dawn. And Dawn doesn't matter to the First Slayer, but she matters to Buffy. Buffy came to the First Slayer with questions about love, so the First Slayer answered her - and the answer is that she is so full of love that she will sacrifice herself for her sister. I don't think the First Slayer is saying that because she wants to save Dawn - she probably doesn't care about Dawn one way or the other - she's just saying what Buffy is going to do.
If the mission is always first, then that makes no sense that her death would be a gift, since she wouldn't be there anymore to do the mission (and until Faith dies, there'd be no active slayer).
Well, we've never heard the First Slayer talk about "the mission" - that was a Nikki/Robin Wood thing, "the mission is what matters." But isn't that what a Slayer does? She fights until she dies, and then the mission is passed to someone else. Buffy is already an anomaly, and it's only natural that she would die by sacrificing herself to save the world. So it's not like the First Slayer is telling Buffy to do something that every other Slayer before her hasn't done. (Though I don't think the First Slayer is actually telling Buffy to do anything. I think she's just saying what's going to happen, in essence predicting the future.)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 16 2008 03:03 am #7EveryLastDrop
Remember that it wasn't actually the First Slayer speaking to Buffy in the desert, but the mysterious 'guide' that takes that form and is meant to answer her questions about being the Slayer and cryptically remark on her destiny. It wasn't about someone else's opinion or even if they cared or not about Dawn, but about telling Buffy what was in her heart and how she would reach the end, where she would understand her self and gift. When Buffy says "this is the work that I have to do" later, I think it's the idea that she isn't forced into this horrible life and duty of being a Slayer, but in knowing who she is, she feels she should fight for the world and it is a part of her, so who she is as a loving sister and protector of the world would lead her to her gift, and the guide saw that in her.
About Glory not feeling, I think it means that in her original form she couldn't truly feel emotions, but when she was trapped in sharing a human body and in our dimension, she was being driven insane and starting to feel more. Lots of times she is talking to herself, to her minions, about the confusing feelings and thoughts she's got and acts manically or depressed or upset and I think that is part of what is driving her insane. When the line between her and Ben starts blurring as they near the ritual, i think Ben's more human emotions are leaking into glory even more strongly and affecting her and she doesn't know how to handle it because it's so unfamiliar.
I do remember what I said. The promise. To protect her. If I had done that... even if I didn't make it... you wouldn't have had to jump. But I want you to know that I did save you. Not when it counted, of course, but after that. Every night after that. I'd see it all again. Do something different. Faster or more clever, you know? Dozens of times, lots of different ways...
Every night I save you.
Remember that it wasn't actually the First Slayer speaking to Buffy in the desert, but the mysterious 'guide' that takes that form and is meant to answer her questions about being the Slayer and cryptically remark on her destiny.
Excellent Point - and her guide happens to be the female lion - which to me suggest Buffy as a mythic combination of the prime mother goddess/creator/protector/life cycle. Buffy, not only is sister to Dawn, she is now also the parent/mother and, like all mothers, they GIVE LIFE. That Buffy is to die, is the completion of her mythic role as The Life Cycle. Another thing about "love driven" mothers - if they could sacrifice their life or happiness to keep their children alive or to find a better life, they would do it.
The First Slayer was created as a Protector and as has been stated, the protect until they meet their deaths - Buffy also does her role as protector, but she also is driven from love for Dawn. This episode also takes us directly back to the season opener "Buffy vs Drac" and the theme introduced of "what are you" and the theme of family,love, sacrifice and the journey of self-discovery that has been the primary arc, IMO, of the entire season.
Excellent Point - and her guide happens to be the female lion - which to me suggest Buffy as a mythic combination of the prime mother goddess/creator/protector/life cycle. Buffy, not only is sister to Dawn, she is now also the parent/mother and, like all mothers, they GIVE LIFE. That Buffy is to die, is the completion of her mythic role as The Life Cycle. Another thing about "love driven" mothers - if they could sacrifice their life or happiness to keep their children alive or to find a better life, they would do it.
The First Slayer was created as a Protector and as has been stated, the protect until they meet their deaths - Buffy also does her role as protector, but she also is driven from love for Dawn. This episode also takes us directly back to the season opener "Buffy vs Drac" and the theme introduced of "what are you" and the theme of family,love, sacrifice and the journey of self-discovery that has been the primary arc, IMO, of the entire season.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
It wasn't about someone else's opinion or even if they cared or not about Dawn, but about telling Buffy what was in her heart and how she would reach the end, where she would understand her self and gift.
Exactly. That's what I was trying to get at, but you said it better than me. :)
Exactly. That's what I was trying to get at, but you said it better than me. :)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
More than likely something simple--Spike pulls out another cigarette, pats his pockets, then remembers Xander's the last one to have it. Spike: Harris, you mind giving a fella his lighter back? Kind of hard to smoke without it. Xander: Was hoping you wouldn't notice--it's easier to breathe when you don't. (hands Spike the lighter grudgingly) Spike: (shrugs) Yeah, well, you'll get used it. Xander: Don't have much of a choice, do I? Spike: (looks as if he's seriously pondering this) Nope, can't say that you do. (lights up, inhales deeply) And scene :P
Adorable! I wish it had happened! :D
Ooooh, when was this? How did I miss it? I may have to go back to this episode...lol!
When Spike slaps Xander on the head, both hold their heads in pain, then start stumbling against each other. Spike pats Xander's butt as they walk to the exit. lolRemember that it wasn't actually the First Slayer speaking to Buffy in the desert, but the mysterious 'guide' that takes that form and is meant to answer her questions about being the Slayer and cryptically remark on her destiny.
I never knew that! That makes a lot of sense.
Adorable! I wish it had happened! :D
Ooooh, when was this? How did I miss it? I may have to go back to this episode...lol!
When Spike slaps Xander on the head, both hold their heads in pain, then start stumbling against each other. Spike pats Xander's butt as they walk to the exit. lolRemember that it wasn't actually the First Slayer speaking to Buffy in the desert, but the mysterious 'guide' that takes that form and is meant to answer her questions about being the Slayer and cryptically remark on her destiny.
I never knew that! That makes a lot of sense.
Nov 16 2008 02:51 pm #11Spikez_tart
if Glory starts the ritual, the only way to stop it would be to kill Dawn - Is this true? Suppose they do kill Dawn (at whatever point). That wouldn't destroy the key; the key would just return to its natural green energy blob form where it would be even harder for the gang to control.
Buffy's quest - I forgot to mention this in the appropriate place, but I found it interesting that Giles is mystically tied to Buffy as her watcher and has to pass the connection to the spirit cougar. Maybe Giles isn't all human anymore either.
Buffy's quest - I forgot to mention this in the appropriate place, but I found it interesting that Giles is mystically tied to Buffy as her watcher and has to pass the connection to the spirit cougar. Maybe Giles isn't all human anymore either.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 16 2008 03:35 pm #12Scarlet Ibis
Adorable! I wish it had happened! :D
Glad you liked :D
<--fanwanks often
When Spike slaps Xander on the head, both hold their heads in pain, then start stumbling against each other. Spike pats Xander's butt as they walk to the exit.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but no, he doesn't. He slaps Xander's head, they both yell in pain, and then he hits Xander on the back, saying, "Last time, from the top." It's pretty low on his back, sure, but he wasn't aiming for his ass. More of a shove than anything.
Glad you liked :D
<--fanwanks often
When Spike slaps Xander on the head, both hold their heads in pain, then start stumbling against each other. Spike pats Xander's butt as they walk to the exit.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here, but no, he doesn't. He slaps Xander's head, they both yell in pain, and then he hits Xander on the back, saying, "Last time, from the top." It's pretty low on his back, sure, but he wasn't aiming for his ass. More of a shove than anything.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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Nov 16 2008 06:50 pm #13TammyDevil666
Yeah, that's what I thought, but we can imagine it was the bum;)
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
if Glory starts the ritual, the only way to stop it would be to kill Dawn - Is this true?
As far as we know, it's true. Glory and her minions seem to think so, hence the reason why they want to bleed Dawn slowly, and Giles seems to think it's true, hence his suggestion that killing Dawn is the only way.
The actual prophecy/instructions/whatever that he reads from the book says, "The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." So, to close the gates, they have to get Dawn's blood to stop flowing - i.e. kill her. Giles also says that the Key's energy is used to open the gates between dimensions, and when the energy is used up, the walls come back up. That implies that the Key would be used up in the process and there would be nothing left - no Dawn, no green energy - when it's over.
There's nothing on the show that suggests that Dawn would revert to a green blob of energy at any point, no matter what they do to her. There's no mention of what would happen to the energy if she's killed before the ritual is completed, although from the Knights of Byzantium, it sounds like the Key would be destroyed if Dawn dies. Otherwise, what's the point in killing her? If the Key would just revert back to the green blob of energy, Glory could still use it to open the portal, so the Knights wouldn't actually accomplish anything by killing Dawn.
I forgot to mention this in the appropriate place, but I found it interesting that Giles is mystically tied to Buffy as her watcher and has to pass the connection to the spirit cougar.
I find that interesting as well, but for a completely different reason. If a Watcher is mystically tied to his Slayer, then how the heck can the Council fire a Watcher?? Can they break that mystical connection and create a new one with the new Watcher? If so, why didn't they do that to Giles?
Also, how does that work? Is a Watcher "called" the same way a Slayer is? Like, a new Slayer is called, and one Watcher in all the world is chosen to be her Watcher? I always assumed it was done by Council assignment, but this mystical connection thingy makes it sound like Watchers are chosen by the same magical process that chooses the Slayers. Does a new Watcher get "called" for a Slayer if her first Watcher dies? If so, why didn't the Council have Giles killed so that Buffy could have a mystical connection with someone still on the payroll?
ETA: I think I'm mostly annoyed we didn't get to see Giles and Wesley doing a joint hokey pokey and shaking their gourds in order for Wesley to assume responsibility for Buffy in season 3. *pouts*
As far as we know, it's true. Glory and her minions seem to think so, hence the reason why they want to bleed Dawn slowly, and Giles seems to think it's true, hence his suggestion that killing Dawn is the only way.
The actual prophecy/instructions/whatever that he reads from the book says, "The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." So, to close the gates, they have to get Dawn's blood to stop flowing - i.e. kill her. Giles also says that the Key's energy is used to open the gates between dimensions, and when the energy is used up, the walls come back up. That implies that the Key would be used up in the process and there would be nothing left - no Dawn, no green energy - when it's over.
There's nothing on the show that suggests that Dawn would revert to a green blob of energy at any point, no matter what they do to her. There's no mention of what would happen to the energy if she's killed before the ritual is completed, although from the Knights of Byzantium, it sounds like the Key would be destroyed if Dawn dies. Otherwise, what's the point in killing her? If the Key would just revert back to the green blob of energy, Glory could still use it to open the portal, so the Knights wouldn't actually accomplish anything by killing Dawn.
I forgot to mention this in the appropriate place, but I found it interesting that Giles is mystically tied to Buffy as her watcher and has to pass the connection to the spirit cougar.
I find that interesting as well, but for a completely different reason. If a Watcher is mystically tied to his Slayer, then how the heck can the Council fire a Watcher?? Can they break that mystical connection and create a new one with the new Watcher? If so, why didn't they do that to Giles?
Also, how does that work? Is a Watcher "called" the same way a Slayer is? Like, a new Slayer is called, and one Watcher in all the world is chosen to be her Watcher? I always assumed it was done by Council assignment, but this mystical connection thingy makes it sound like Watchers are chosen by the same magical process that chooses the Slayers. Does a new Watcher get "called" for a Slayer if her first Watcher dies? If so, why didn't the Council have Giles killed so that Buffy could have a mystical connection with someone still on the payroll?
ETA: I think I'm mostly annoyed we didn't get to see Giles and Wesley doing a joint hokey pokey and shaking their gourds in order for Wesley to assume responsibility for Buffy in season 3. *pouts*
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
It's pretty low on his back, sure, but he wasn't aiming for his ass. More of a shove than anything.
My eyes saw him hitting his ass and they're biased :D
My eyes saw him hitting his ass and they're biased :D
Nov 16 2008 09:18 pm #16Scarlet Ibis
I find that interesting as well, but for a completely different reason. If a Watcher is mystically tied to his Slayer, then how the heck can the Council fire a Watcher?? Can they break that mystical connection and create a new one with the new Watcher? If so, why didn't they do that to Giles? Also, how does that work? Is a Watcher "called" the same way a Slayer is? Like, a new Slayer is called, and one Watcher in all the world is chosen to be her Watcher? I always assumed it was done by Council assignment, but this mystical connection thingy makes it sound like Watchers are chosen by the same magical process that chooses the Slayers. Does a new Watcher get "called" for a Slayer if her first Watcher dies? If so, why didn't the Council have Giles killed so that Buffy could have a mystical connection with someone still on the payroll?
Initially, I was going to simply say "retcon" like with that mysterious "Troll God" hammer. But upon further thought...
Technically, none of that would be necessary due to circumstance. If Giles and Buffy are mystically connected, and they can only be connected to each other, then Wesley would never need to be connected to Buffy, because technically, she was removed from the mix long ago when she died the first time. Maybe Wesley is connected to Faith, like Giles is to Buffy, so no dance would ever be needed. All was in the right order, so to speak, except for the whole two slayers thing.
As for a new Watcher being "called," well, it's highly doubtful that a slayer would outlast her watcher, but if that were to happen, perhaps there is a calling, of sorts.
Initially, I was going to simply say "retcon" like with that mysterious "Troll God" hammer. But upon further thought...
Technically, none of that would be necessary due to circumstance. If Giles and Buffy are mystically connected, and they can only be connected to each other, then Wesley would never need to be connected to Buffy, because technically, she was removed from the mix long ago when she died the first time. Maybe Wesley is connected to Faith, like Giles is to Buffy, so no dance would ever be needed. All was in the right order, so to speak, except for the whole two slayers thing.
As for a new Watcher being "called," well, it's highly doubtful that a slayer would outlast her watcher, but if that were to happen, perhaps there is a calling, of sorts.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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because technically, she was removed from the mix long ago when she died the first time.
Yes, technically, Buffy is no longer in the Slayer line, but in practice, she is the Council's only active Slayer most of the time, and even when Faith's around, they still treat Buffy as the "official" Slayer. I would think they'd want her Watcher to have that mystical connection, and if they don't consider Giles her Watcher, then him having the connection doesn't do them any good. Wesley's connection to Faith also wouldn't do them much good with Faith in a coma or in prison.
Maybe they decided it wasn't worth it, since it seems like after season 3, the Council just gave up on Buffy and Giles entirely and let them do whatever the hell they wanted. They stopped trying to send new Watchers, and they stopped trying to give Buffy orders. If they hadn't asked for help on the Glory thing, it's possible they might never have heard from the Council again.
it's highly doubtful that a slayer would outlast her watcher
Maybe, but it happened to two Slayers within only a few years, so it might be more common than we'd think. Which makes me realize that there must be some sort of "passing the torch" with this mystical connection, since Giles has it and he wasn't Buffy's first Watcher.
ETA: Ultimately, though, I do think it's a total retcon, just so they could have an excuse for Giles to do that silly dance. This "mystical connection" doesn't seem to be of any use, except for the spirit guide, and it's never mentioned before or since.
Yes, technically, Buffy is no longer in the Slayer line, but in practice, she is the Council's only active Slayer most of the time, and even when Faith's around, they still treat Buffy as the "official" Slayer. I would think they'd want her Watcher to have that mystical connection, and if they don't consider Giles her Watcher, then him having the connection doesn't do them any good. Wesley's connection to Faith also wouldn't do them much good with Faith in a coma or in prison.
Maybe they decided it wasn't worth it, since it seems like after season 3, the Council just gave up on Buffy and Giles entirely and let them do whatever the hell they wanted. They stopped trying to send new Watchers, and they stopped trying to give Buffy orders. If they hadn't asked for help on the Glory thing, it's possible they might never have heard from the Council again.
it's highly doubtful that a slayer would outlast her watcher
Maybe, but it happened to two Slayers within only a few years, so it might be more common than we'd think. Which makes me realize that there must be some sort of "passing the torch" with this mystical connection, since Giles has it and he wasn't Buffy's first Watcher.
ETA: Ultimately, though, I do think it's a total retcon, just so they could have an excuse for Giles to do that silly dance. This "mystical connection" doesn't seem to be of any use, except for the spirit guide, and it's never mentioned before or since.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
ETA: Ultimately, though, I do think it's a total retcon, just so they could have an excuse for Giles to do that silly dance. This "mystical connection" doesn't seem to be of any use, except for the spirit guide, and it's never mentioned before or since.
I also agree with this pov - something of this importance would have been part of the series from the earlier seasons -
I also agree with this pov - something of this importance would have been part of the series from the earlier seasons -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 17 2008 03:37 am #19Spikez_tart
Is a Watcher "called" the same way a Slayer is? Like, a new Slayer is called - There's a comic book version of the Watcher selection. Giles and another Watcher are pitted against each other and Giles ends up doing some black magic in order to blow out the other Watcher (who is evil, naturally). Then there is a big pompous ceremony. Giles is considered a questionable choice because of his use of black magic. Sadly, the hokey pokey is neglected.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
something of this importance would have been part of the series from the earlier seasons
Heh, well, I don't know about that... there's a lot of stuff in season seven that seems pretty important to the Slayer mythology that probably should've been part of the series earlier on. ;)
Heh, well, I don't know about that... there's a lot of stuff in season seven that seems pretty important to the Slayer mythology that probably should've been part of the series earlier on. ;)
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 19 2008 03:24 pm #21Guest
Guest
I love Mountain Lions. So pretty. And nicely appropriate to see in California, though not the desert. ;)
CM
CM
GILES: They're for me. Come on, this way. You see, the location of the sacred place is a guarded secret, I can't take you there myself. I'll have to perform a ritual to transfer my guardianship of you temporarily to a guide.
This'll doI love Mountain Lions. So pretty. And nicely appropriate to see in California, though not the desert. ;)
The lion at least makes sense as metaphor - but it seems to me that if this is a ritual of transference for a spirit guide, Giles and Buffy could have gone through the ritual without the trip to the desert. It all makes for a great way to get both of them out of Sunnydale and to allow for Buffy Bot-Scooby connection. The writers, IMO, could not go to this very dark theme without coloring things in comedy, pain, and moral development for Spike and Buffy - plus it makes a wonderful tie back to season theme of self discovery. Nice how Buffy and Spike are brought together as the primary protectors of Dawn and both do it by sacrifice of self.
Neatly done episode even with the Hokey Pokey hokey scene -
This'll doI love Mountain Lions. So pretty. And nicely appropriate to see in California, though not the desert. ;)
The lion at least makes sense as metaphor - but it seems to me that if this is a ritual of transference for a spirit guide, Giles and Buffy could have gone through the ritual without the trip to the desert. It all makes for a great way to get both of them out of Sunnydale and to allow for Buffy Bot-Scooby connection. The writers, IMO, could not go to this very dark theme without coloring things in comedy, pain, and moral development for Spike and Buffy - plus it makes a wonderful tie back to season theme of self discovery. Nice how Buffy and Spike are brought together as the primary protectors of Dawn and both do it by sacrifice of self.
Neatly done episode even with the Hokey Pokey hokey scene -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The lion at least makes sense as metaphor - but it seems to me that if this is a ritual of transference for a spirit guide, Giles and Buffy could have gone through the ritual without the trip to the desert.
Well, the spirit guide thing has to take place at a certain location, right? In that line you quoted, he says "the location of the sacred place," which presumably is somewhere in the desert, wherever the mountain lion led her. I highly doubt that the spirit guide is going to drive Buffy from Sunnydale out to the desert (and she can't drive herself), so it makes sense that they would get as close to the place as possible before Giles does the transfer.
Well, the spirit guide thing has to take place at a certain location, right? In that line you quoted, he says "the location of the sacred place," which presumably is somewhere in the desert, wherever the mountain lion led her. I highly doubt that the spirit guide is going to drive Buffy from Sunnydale out to the desert (and she can't drive herself), so it makes sense that they would get as close to the place as possible before Giles does the transfer.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 20 2008 02:33 am #24Spikez_tart
Hokey Pokey hokey scene - I loved the hokey pokey. It was so stupid. Sort of an antidote to all the high faluting spells they usually do. I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were next called upon to do the hokey pokey & turn themselves around! Too Funny.
Mountain lion - Buffy's totem? Very appropriate.
Mountain lion - Buffy's totem? Very appropriate.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Is a Watcher "called" the same way a Slayer is? Like, a new Slayer is called
I think it's true, since Giles was sent to Buffy after the death of her LA watcher (what's his name again?). And Faith was sent that evil woman watcher after the death of her watcher. It's weird that they didn't send Faith another watcher after that. After Giles was fired, Wesely was sent to be Buffy's watcher. It's when Buffy quit the council, they stopped sending her watchers.
I think it's true, since Giles was sent to Buffy after the death of her LA watcher (what's his name again?). And Faith was sent that evil woman watcher after the death of her watcher. It's weird that they didn't send Faith another watcher after that. After Giles was fired, Wesely was sent to be Buffy's watcher. It's when Buffy quit the council, they stopped sending her watchers.
Well, the spirit guide thing has to take place at a certain location, right? In that line you quoted, he says "the location of the sacred place," which presumably is somewhere in the desert, wherever the mountain lion led her. I highly doubt that the spirit guide is going to drive Buffy from Sunnydale out to the desert (and she can't drive herself), so it makes sense that they would get as close to the place as possible before Giles does the transfer.
I'm just thinking that usually a spirit /guide ritual is more a mental journey and would not necessarily have to be done at a specific location - but perhaps because the desert is a place very different from their everyday environment and away from The Hellmouth, it makes sense for their plot.
I'm just thinking that usually a spirit /guide ritual is more a mental journey and would not necessarily have to be done at a specific location - but perhaps because the desert is a place very different from their everyday environment and away from The Hellmouth, it makes sense for their plot.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Nov 20 2008 01:59 pm #27Guest
Guest
Evil woman Watcher wasn't sent - she came for the glove. She was just well researched. And Wesley is supposed to preside over both Slayers because Giles isn't official anymore. The Council already knows Faith is there when he gets there.
Yes, it's possible that from a story-telling perspective, they wanted the desert environment (or just someplace outside of Sunnydale), but at least they gave a reason why they went to the desert (that's where the "sacred place" is), so it doesn't bother me at all.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 21 2008 02:22 am #29Spikez_tart
Deserts and mountains are usually considered ritually "clean" places (no humans, cities, corruption - that sort of thing). Think Moses, Jesus, no doubt others, who go to the desert and/or mountains and have spirtual experiences.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
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