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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Bargaining Part 1: Episode Discussion
- Poor Spike, having to deal with slow, weak humans as "co-fighters" during patrols. He can't keep his attitude in check as he mocks Tara's spell and calls Giles an over-the-hill shopkeeper. Lol
- How adorable to see Giles and Spike laughing at Giles' joke... I'd pay so much to have us turn back in time, and then Joss would do a two hour movie on the summer between S5 and S6, would LOVE to see more Scoobies/Spike friendship scenes without Buffy's involvement.
- Willow is the leader now and she's doing a great job at it. She improved her telepathic abilities, and this is probably the only, or one of the very few, spells she'll re-use throughout the show.
- Notice how Tara doesn't stutter this season.
- Why would Anya be offended about the idea of Willow entering her mind? Whatever pops into her head, she says it out loud. It's not like she's into privacy. :D
- SPIKE: Oh, poor Watcher. Did your life pass before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea?
Heee! What's up with Spike insulting Giles this evening?
- When do you think the Scoobies decided that Buffy should be alive in the eyes of others? Probably before they had buried her, because otherwise, they'd have made a big funeral and everybody would be invited. I guess they had stolen a coffin and decided to bury Buffy in the middle of a forest. As I'm typing this, I realize how the writers didn't think this one through.
- I wonder who's babysitting Dawn, seeing as all the main characters are out patrolling. Maybe she's at Janice's.
- Nice of Willow and Tara to move into the Summers' home to take care of Dawn. I'm guessing they're using the money Joyce had left for her daughters to support Dawn.
- Why would Dawn lie about taking Willow's clogs when she had borrowed them from Tara? Unless she lost them.
- I love the family vibe that Willow, Tara and Dawn create in the Summers' home.
- TARA: Oh, I don't know if you can call us mega, Willow maybe-
I'm getting tired with Tara's worship of Willow, I get why she would worship her: Willow was the one who took her in and made her see how special she is, not to mention that they only fought once and Willow had taken care of her in her insane days and never gave up hope to bring her back and she did. It's understandable, but still, annoying.
- It seems that Hank has been calling to check on his daughters. Finally, some sense knocked into this man.
- I love Xander's nervous stare at Buffybot when Willow mentions that Anya found that "thing", he's the one who's most uncomfortable with their plan to bring Buffy back.
- It's touching that Dawn prefers living with the Scoobies than her father. But then they did not abandon her and they always do all they can to protect her.
- Giles decides to leave, but wants to make sure that everything is under control, does that mean he still doesn’t trust Anya to run the Magic Box by herself?
- Anya is being impossible when she insists on preventing Giles from taking his Ramadan statue, even though it's his.
- Giles and Anya's fight over the statue is as funny as Xander and Harmony's fight in S4.
- Xander calls them on their immaturity before he chides Anya for acting selfish, reminding her that Giles is gonna leave the Magic Box for her and that he still owns the shop and if she keeps misbehaving, he can fire her.
- Anya is obviously over grieving Buffy and wants everybody to just move on –I agree with her- her reasons for wanting everyone to move on: she wants control over the Magic Box and to tell everybody about the engagement.
- Xander is nervous when she brings that up –funny seeing how confident he was about this in S5 and as Anya says, it is his idea that they get married in the first place. However, Xander thinks that they should break the news to the others when things as not so up in the air.
- Aw, Spike, why so cynical ever since Buffy died? It's like nothing satisfies him lately, no wonder he'll attack school. Lol
- It's so heartbreaking seeing Spike determined to protect Dawn, he had failed before after he had promised Buffy. He won't do it again. I felt shudders when he slammed the cards down on the table.
- Why did they leave the Buffybot to patrol alone? Someone should have been with her. Giles perhaps, since I'm not sure what's he's doing at this hour.
- Those vampires are such idiots, they couldn't tell that Buffybot was a robot before? They're after blood and she doesn't have any.
- Hee, Xander is a Backstreet Boys fan. I loved Tara's amused smile at his discomfort.
- XANDER: We were just talking then.
It seems that Xander was just going along with this plan so he wouldn't upset Willow, but it's obvious he doesn't agree with it. This is one of his flaws, his so unsure about things but doesn't confess until the last second when it becomes real.
- Anya and Tara are Xander and Willow's sheep. If Xander doesn’t agree to do the spell, Anya doesn't agree as well. If Xander agrees to do the spell, Anya agrees as well. It's like she has no mind of her own. Same with Tara who knows that bringing people back from the dead is wrong, but because it's Willow who wants to do it, it's okay, because Willow does no wrong. This is probably why I enjoy Xander and Willow as characters more than Anya and Tara. While they're very flawed, at least they are independent and more interesting and challenging to write in fanfic than Anya and Tara IMO.
- Willow is in full mode when it comes to controlling "Nobody's changing their minds. Period." Yikes.
- Xander choosing Willow as their leader shows that he's not a women hating jackass who has a 'harem' attitude concerning the women in his life. Yep, I've heard this one a lot. Lol
- Why doesn't Willow want Giles, Spike and Dawn to know? I get why she doesn't want Giles to know, he knows what it takes for this spell to happen. As we'll see later there will be some details to the spell that Willow won't be telling the others about. If they knew about them, they won't be helping her. She doesn't want Dawn to know because it'll be too hard on her. She doesn't want Spike to know, probably because she thinks he'll stop her.
- Do you think if Buffy died a natural death like Joyce that Willow would insist on bringing her back? She had no problem helping Dawn find the book with the spells. I guess she'll have a harder time convincing the others to agree with her plan.
- "It's Buffy" Willow knows the exact magical words to move Xander into agreeing.
- Willow goes into the Summers' house alone? Where's Tara?
- The Spike/Willow scenes are so rare, which is a shame. They really needed one in S7, Willow could have talked about redemption with souled Spike. Sadly, there are too many missed opportunities in that season that you can't count.
- BUFFYBOT: Sorry I questioned you, Spike. (Spike looks surprised) You know I admire your brain almost as much as your washboard abs. (big smile)
Spike looks pained.
SPIKE: (quietly to Willow) I told you to make her stop doing that.
Aww, Spike… but you did have it coming, you know. Lol. Come to think about it, Buffybot did come to their advantage in the end.
- It still amazes me how a robot can have emotions. So now the Buffybot feels left out because Spike doesn't like her anymore?
- That Dawn moment made me tear up, cuddling up against the bot that looks like her sister. Sniff.
- Anya whining about Giles leaving started to get old. It's a miracle how Giles is able to put up with it.
- BUFFYBOT: I like your teachings. Every Slayer needs her Watcher.
GILES: I'm not so sure about that.
Awww, Giles also feels a sense of failure, just like Spike.
- GILES: (looking away) I just can't help but wonder if ... she would have been better off without me. Buffy.
That's why you're gonna leave her this season?
- GILES: She's gone. I did my job.
BUFFYBOT: (frowns innocently) Well, then why are you still here?
- Probably because he's attached to the other Scoobies? Or because he can't leave the memories of Buffy too soon.
- Willow killing Bambie after she had demanded not to hurt the horseies last season. Notice her white dress that resembles purity, which is Willow, before it gets tainted with blood. Willow's soul is gonna get tainted this season in lots of ways.
- Tara was quite upset about the black market stuff, I thought she was going to reproach Willow, but all she did was be upset that Willow did it alone. Tara is so under Willow's thumb.
- Aw, Anya telling Tara to look at the money because it always calms Anya down. I especially love Xander's fond smile at Anya's innocent gesture.
- The airport scene with Giles is the best scene in this episode. It's full of tears and awws, so moving.
- Anya is taking being an American seriously what with her "American" gift. Tara's is so adorable, "Grr! Argh!" Xander didn't bring a gift, he wanted to buy a can of Old English 800, but I guess he has to be twenty-one to buy it. Dawn got him a card, which looked adorable.
- I love how Giles went for a handshake while Xander wanted to go for a hug. When Xander was about to change for a handshake, Giles pulled him into a hug. Adorable! Anya hugs Giles like she did in The Body. It was so nice to see Giles hugging Tara.
Then he hugs Dawn and tells her that if she needed anything, she must call him. It's cute to see Dawn going to Xander after she finishes her goodbye moment with Giles and have him side hug her. Then Giles turns to his favorite Scooby after Buffy, they exchange a few words and then hug.
- Didn't it cross the Scoobies' mind that if Buffy woke up, she'll be in the coffin? Or did they think she'll magically appear before them?
- Spike babysitting Dawn can never stop being adorable. :)
- Again, the Buffybot is left to patrol alone. I suggest they should have let Spike go with her and Dawn should have been at Janice's house.
- Xander is the second in command after Willow's passed out.
- Poor Buffy waking up in her coffin :( Unlike vampires who don't need to breathe, she must be thankful for her powers or else she'd have died suffocating.
"Barganing" was kinda painfull to watch for me, when Buffy wakes up in her coffin i almost passed out!! (my brother made me watch "Buried alive" when i was really young...).
I love Spike in early season 6 so him taking care of Dawn always makes me smile :) ..
I really don`t understand why Giles had to leave!. It makes no sense when you think about it!, if Buffy didn`t jump the hole world would have been like armageddon all over again so she did save the world, and she did it for Dawn. Giles seems to be really guilty for it, but why??.
He has a line about not training her properly or whatever, but he did!, that`s why the world is still there.
Did you guys notice Spike`s hair?, when Buffy isn`t there it`s all whitegolden and quite the mess. When she returns it looks like Spike`s old doo:).
Notice how Tara doesn't stutter this season. She does, not often but a couple of times. I can`t remember the name of the episode, but when Buffy talks about beeing brought back wrong she stutters. And when she`s talking to Willow outside the magic box..
But your right, her confidence has gotten a boost it seems.
Actually, he doesn't start slicking it back again all the time until "Smashed." I think it was purposeful--like "Come see the softer side of Spike."
Poor Spike, having to deal with slow, weak humans as "co-fighters" during patrols. He can't keep his attitude in check as he mocks Tara's spell and calls Giles an over-the-hill shopkeeper.
Not sure how much you were joking or not about that statement, but I thought he enjoyed the company. His remarks weren't snide, but had a feel of joking around. Actually, and this is cut from the tv airing, but he shares some kind of joke with Tara at some point in the opening scene, and I think Giles as well (which you mention). They're friendly.
Also, upon further thought, he's frustrated sure at letting the kill get away, but at the same time, he could have gone after him solo. He didn't want to leave them (his humans--an Angel term, but that's what it makes me think of) behind.
- When do you think the Scoobies decided that Buffy should be alive in the eyes of others? Probably before they had buried her, because otherwise, they'd have made a big funeral and everybody would be invited. I guess they had stolen a coffin and decided to bury Buffy in the middle of a forest. As I'm typing this, I realize how the writers didn't think this one through.
I actually fanwanked this myself in a fic. Um, I'm thinking they decided to keep it a secret soon after, once the shock settled. The Hellmouth (in Sunnydale and not Cleveland, apparently), has to have a guardian. So, they decided to keep up the pretense with the bot, and had a private funeral. It wouldn't take much to get an undertaker and/or funeral director to keep their mouths shut in a town like Sunnydale, what with bodies mysteriously missing from funeral homes (vampires rising) all the time.
- It seems that Hank has been calling to check on his daughters. Finally, some sense knocked into this man.
Pfft, not really. He should have been writing checks. Especially since Buffy wasn't even 21 at that point and (as far as Hank knew) still in school.
Anya and Tara are Xander and Willow's sheep. If Xander doesn’t agree to do the spell, Anya doesn't agree as well. If Xander agrees to do the spell, Anya agrees as well. It's like she has no mind of her own. Same with Tara who knows that bringing people back from the dead is wrong, but because it's Willow who wants to do it, it's okay, because Willow does no wrong.
Well, Anya is desperate to assimilate--she's never not disagreed with Xander, mostly, and went against her own beliefs and thoughts many a time just for him. And Tara, well, this is the first time she's really been accepted into a fold of any kind, so I think subconsciously, she'd never want to rock that boat and be out in the cold again. Of course, Willow makes her reevaluate that later. Eh, love makes you lose yourself, which we'll see later...
Willow is in full mode when it comes to controlling "Nobody's changing their minds. Period." Yikes.
Yeah, and we'll see this again. I know this was brought up on some other thread, but methinks that Willow's Tabula Rasa spell was not first performed in OMWF, especially since she already had the supplies--the little flower thing and just says it off the top of her head, like she'd done it before...
Why doesn't Willow want Giles, Spike and Dawn to know?
Spike and Giles would be too hard to control--she couldn't lead them by the short hairs like she does the others, and Dawn's opinion is irrelevant (cause she's just a "kid" ).
Do you think if Buffy died a natural death like Joyce that Willow would insist on bringing her back? She had no problem helping Dawn find the book with the spells.
Willow only showed Dawn that book to help her answer questions. She didn't think she'd try to ressurect her mother. I think that if Buffy had died of natural causes, Willow would have let that go. I do think she believed Buffy to be trapped in some hell dimension, and natural causes wouldn't be the same. Yeah, I know, she tried to resurrect Tara...but the circumstances were different, it was traumatic for her to see, and let's face it, she was really unstable by that point--she had just gotten Tara back, her lover, so she wasn't rational. With Buffy, she would have been rational.
Spike… but you did have it coming, you know. Lol. Come to think about it, Buffybot did come to their advantage in the end.
Actually, wiz that Willow is, I didn't see why it was so difficult to fix that after five months. It felt more like the writers trying to show how Spike used to be, to this evolved, slightly self loathing/shamed Spike.
- Probably because he's attached to the other Scoobies? Or because he can't leave the memories of Buffy too soon.
A bit of both. He'd been with the others, well, Xander and Willow, as long as he'd been with Buffy, well, longer after her death, and he's clearly made attachments to the others in some shape or form (though I suspect Spike and Anya moreso over Dawn and Tara). Also, since he feels like a failure, it'd make sense for him to want to stick around and help with Buffy's duties, since he blames himself for her demise. But then realizes it wasn't his fault, and moves on. There was nothing more he could do there.
Didn't it cross the Scoobies' mind that if Buffy woke up, she'll be in the coffin? Or did they think she'll magically appear before them?
Probably. When Dawn did her resurrection spell, she didn't have to go digging first. Or like in "The Zeppo," different kind of resurrection, I know, but they just came out of the ground, like vampires. An oversight to be sure, but in a sense, an understandable one.
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I really don`t understand why Giles had to leave!.
He wanted to since S5. I think since he hadn't been that useful in S4, since he was not Buffy's watcher, he preffered going to his family and finding a life in his home town. But then Buffy wanted him to train her and be her watcher again and he stayed, thankfully he also had the Magic Box and started having a job of his own.
Giles seems to be really guilty for it, but why??
Because he didn't prevent Buffy's death, perhaps he thinks that he should have found a way that didn't need for Buffy to die. He couldn't protect her from death.
Could you actually see the card?,
They don't have a full shot of it, but I can still see it.
It's good that she does at times because that's more realistic than have her just stop. I think she mostly stutters in S6 when she's nervous or scared.
Not sure how much you were joking or not about that statement, but I thought he enjoyed the company. His remarks weren't snide, but had a feel of joking around. Actually, and this is cut from the tv airing, but he shares some kind of joke with Tara at some point in the opening scene, and I think Giles as well (which you mention). They're friendly. Also, upon further thought, he's frustrated sure at letting the kill get away, but at the same time, he could have gone after him solo. He didn't want to leave them (his humans--an Angel term, but that's what it makes me think of) behind.
I didn't mean it as a bad thing when Spike mocked Tara's spell and called Giles names. Actually it's a positive thing. It shows how close Spike is to them now. He's frustrated with them slowing him down and he's comfortable enough to show it. Whereas if he wasn't, he would be polite with Tara. Not really with Giles, lol :D
Actually, Buffy, Xander and Willow are known to mock and say insensitive things about each other lots of times. There was that comment from Buffy in S4 about Xander living in basement that can be taken as insensitive. Also Xander mocking Willow's innocence constantly in high school years, just like he does with Anya now. Willow also tends to mock Xander from time to time. Also that comment in S7 about Buffy being pretty but not bright. Buffy calling Xander and Willow "losers" in S2, I'm guessing. But it's not a bad thing, they're friends. They're comfortable with each other to care. The fact that Tara and Giles weren't insulted by Spike's mocking shows how close they had gotten.
Well, Anya is desperate to assimilate--she's never not disagreed with Xander, mostly, and went against her own beliefs and thoughts many a time just for him.
Yeah, there were times when Anya disagreed with Xander. I guess when the subject matter doesn't interest her, she just does what Xander does. Still, she's too hung up on anything that is Xander it's disturbing. I was so glad she had the Magic Box and wasn't just as Buffy says "A puppy following Xander everywhere."
And Tara, well, this is the first time she's really been accepted into a fold of any kind, so I think subconsciously, she'd never want to rock that boat and be out in the cold again.
I think it's more about her seeing Willow as this great person that makes no mistake and should be followed to the end. Something you'll notice in After Life when Xander expresses his concerns about the spell they did, Tara jumps at him defending Willow and doesn't seem to want to discuss this whatsoever to the point where he raises his hands in surrender (I think she scared him, hee)
and Dawn's opinion is irrelevant (cause she's just a "kid" ).
I don't think Willow thinks that way about Dawn. I think it was more that she thought it would be too hard on her.
I don't see how she can't--Dawn still needs a sitter, and for the others to make her breakfast and pack her school lunch...and if you're not going to trust Spike or Giles, well, Dawn's just so incredibly low on that totem pole, she really isn't worth considering. Because of her age, well no, because of how they view her. They think she's twelve. Really, she's about the same age as they were when they first started. But Dawn is depicted as being twelve. When this first aired, I was Dawn's age, give or take, and I kept thinking she was younger than I was, when she really wasn't.
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I think they see Dawn as a kid because that's how she was when they first met her. It's like with mothers who can't see their kids being adults.
I just don't see Willow dismissing Dawn because of her age. Actually none of the Scoobies do that, except for Anya -who does it with good intentions and because she seems to be still following that book on how to act human from S4 :D
Willow has established in "WotW" that she can take control if she really wants to - in that episode she does makes everything better by bringing Buffy back, in Bargaining, everything is wrong.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Yes, he does get the good ole Spike look after Smashed. But he colours it again when Buffy`s back. In the two first episodes of season 6 he`s almost like James off seasons.
I would say pretty soon afterward, definitely before she was buried. (I wrote a fic about it, lol.) I never thought they buried her themselves (more like Scarlet said with keeping it hush hush but still using a funeral director, etc.), but if they did, that would have been a traumatic experience. Xander and Spike digging her grave, Willow and Dawn dressing her in that black dress, lowering the coffin down themselves... God, that'd be horrifying.
TARA: Oh, I don't know if you can call us mega, Willow maybe-
In general, I do see the Willow worship, but here... it's pretty much just fact. Willow is a mega-witch - look at what she can do. And Tara is not; she's a vastly less skilled witch than Willow is, so I think she's just being honest here.
It seems that Hank has been calling to check on his daughters. Finally, some sense knocked into this man.
Well, maybe they should've hit him a little harder, because he's still not acting like a responsible parent...
It's touching that Dawn prefers living with the Scoobies than her father. But then they did not abandon her and they always do all they can to protect her.
Yeah... but I think they're also overestimating Hank's commitment here. I find it very unlikely that he would actually take responsibility for his daughter, regardless of the situation. I mean, most parents wouldn't leave their teenage daughter in the hands of a couple of college kids he's never met, even if that's what she wanted. I think it's more likely that if someone cottoned on that the Buffybot wasn't really Buffy, Dawn would end up with Social Services and be placed in foster care.
Anya is obviously over grieving Buffy and wants everybody to just move on
I think her reason for wanting everyone to move on goes back to "The Body" - the whole grieving process makes her uncomfortable, and even then, she wanted everything to go back to normal as soon as possible. She probably still doesn't totally understand it. Obviously, everyone cares for Buffy more than they cared for Joyce, so the mourning has been way extended, and it's probably making Anya crazy.
Those vampires are such idiots, they couldn't tell that Buffybot was a robot before? They're after blood and she doesn't have any.
Yeah... it's a little hard to believe this plan worked for so long, lol. I guess they were counting on immediately killing any vampires that figured out she was a robot, so there would be no one to spread the word.
It seems that Xander was just going along with this plan so he wouldn't upset Willow, but it's obvious he doesn't agree with it.
No, I think it's about more than just not upsetting Willow. I think part of him really wants to do it. Willow's got a persuasive argument - their best friend is trapped in a hell dimension and they need to get her out. It's hard to say no to that. Xander's definitely uncomfortable with it, but I think it's his own conflict - "I want Buffy back" vs. "it's wrong" - not just about Willow.
Same with Tara who knows that bringing people back from the dead is wrong, but because it's Willow who wants to do it, it's okay, because Willow does no wrong.
Again, I think it's more complicated than that. Buffy died a mystical death, so the rules are different. Buffy might be in a hell dimension, so they have to save her. I think Tara knows it's wrong, but she's willing to make an exception because these are unusual circumstances. I'm sure she's more comfortable with it because she trusts Willow to do it right, and if Willow says it's possible, then it must be, because she's a better witch, but I think Tara did her own rationalization about the situation before blinding following Willow.
She doesn't want Dawn to know because it'll be too hard on her.
Yeah, I think she doesn't want to get Dawn's hopes up. If she tells Dawn they're going to do it, and then it doesn't work, Dawn would be crushed. Or worse, if they bring something back and it's not Buffy, and they have to kill it, it'd be like zombie Joyce all over again. They're trying to spare Dawn that, and if they're lucky and it works, then hey, they can give Dawn a great surprise.
Do you think if Buffy died a natural death like Joyce that Willow would insist on bringing her back?
No... I think the argument she used to convince both herself and everyone else was that Buffy's death was mystical and she was suffering in a hell dimension. If she'd died a natural death, there wouldn't be any excuses or rationalizations. I don't think she'd be able to convince herself, and she definitely wouldn't have been able to convince anyone else.
But then realizes it wasn't his fault, and moves on. There was nothing more he could do there.
Hmm... I don't think he realized it wasn't his fault, and then suddenly decided he could move on. I think, logically, he's always known that it wasn't his fault - Slayers die, it's part of the job. But he was very close to Buffy and blames himself for not protecting her, more of a fatherly response than a Watcherly one. I think he stayed in Sunnydale because he was trying to hang on to that familial feeling - taking care of the rest of the Scoobies the way he's always done. But his conversation with the Buffybot kinda puts it in stark reality - he's not here to be a father, he's here to be a Watcher, and his Slayer is gone, so why is he still here? (A sentiment I kind of disagree with - the fact is, he is like a father to these kids, and you don't just turn off those emotions like a switch, so I think his leaving is somewhat misguided.)
Because he didn't prevent Buffy's death, perhaps he thinks that he should have found a way that didn't need for Buffy to die.
But he did - let Dawn die instead. It's not his fault Buffy didn't choose that option.
It was still blonde...it's just curly. The only time we see his roots is in "Lessons."
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Nope, it looks diffrent in episode three. I can assure you. :)
"Bargaining" 
"Afterlife"Also, and I always thought it was him...but apparently James was one of the background people in the airport. According to this site anyway: http://angel.fcpages.com/bdt.html it is him. At any rate, it's a nice way to subliminally insert Spike into the scene :P
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LOL!, you going CSI on me?:). But no your wrong; remember the last scene in "Afterlife" when Buffy admits she was in heaven?. Watch it!.
And the picture of Spike checking Buffy`s hands is from "Barganing part 2", not "Afterlife"
Nope--that's "Afterlife" at the very beginning :P Remember, in "Bargaining 2," the end of that ep was Dawn going after Buffy on the tower, and it collapses. "Afterlife" begins with Dawn cleaning Buffy up, and Spike entering the house looking for Dawn.
As for the end of "Afterlife," well, it was probably lighting or something. James' hair is brown, and we never see those roots till s7. I do admit that sometimes, his hair can appear more yellow than white, and vice versa, but typically, he'd get his hair bleached before every episode or something like that.
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But i`m not gonna agree with u when it comes to my man`s hair. So we can just agree to disagree.
His hair looks exactly the same to me as it did in the pictures Scarlet posted.
I`m gonna go and hide now.
Hank - It's not clear to me at all that Daddy dearest is calling at all. Here's the quote:
BUFFYBOT: Is my phone manner not correct?
TARA: It's perfect. It's just ... we can't take the chance that Mr. Summers might talk to you and know something's wrong.
It's sounds like Tara is giving the BBot some line of bull to keep her off the phone. (Notice how much the Bot is like Real Buffy here - can't just do what's she's told :) ) Maybe Dawn is still hoping (probably foolishly) that Dad is going to call, but surely no one else is at this point. Buffy said in S5 that they had left messages when Joyce died, but couldn't reach him or something. He's a jerk. No points given here.
Which, why does both Tara and Willow says things to BuffyBot to make her feel better? And Dawn, allows the Buffybot to hug her etc. It appears that the Bot has Feelings! But, the vampire doesn't. Brother.
Joss would do a two hour movie on the summer between S5 and S6 - Sosa - See http://buffybetweenthelines.com/ for instant relief. They finished that season and their season 2 is when the summer when Buffy runs away from home.
I hated the "softer side of Spike" hair - in "Beneath You" he also has a different look - looks like he was just given a shorter cut -
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Actually, wiz that Willow is, I didn't see why it was so difficult to fix that after five months.
Willow still couldn't get her to stop with the knock knock jokes, so I guess it takes more effort to erase older info than to add new info. I actually like that Willow isn't perfect in this area, it's more realistic that way. I also think that Willow is paying more attention to magic lately than technology, which is why she's having a hard time fixing Buffybot.
It's not clear to me at all that Daddy dearest is calling at all.
DAWN: Um ... it could be my dad. (to Willow) He said he'd call today.
Which implies that he did call... it still doesn't make him a good father.
why does both Tara and Willow says things to BuffyBot to make her feel better?
Because they're Willow and Tara. They're always sweet to everybody, even those who don't deserve it :D
And Dawn, allows the Buffybot to hug her etc.
I won't expect her to push her away. Not to mention that Buffybot is the robot version of Buffy, no wonder Dawn left her hugging her, she could picture that it was the real Buffy. The others looked sad at the scene, not for Buffybot's benefit, but for Dawn's.
It appears that the Bot has Feelings! But, the vampire doesn't. Brother.
While I don't get how Buffybot can express feelings, I don't see why you'd be upset about them being sweet to her in relation to vampires. Buffybot doesn't want to kill them, other vampires do. The only vampire who doesn't want to kill them is Spike and so far they're all nice with him and considerate of his feelings.
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Plus, i've read a lot of fics about Willow going bad and bringing up the resurecton spell, so I have to ask everybody: Do you think she didn't want to tell Giles or Spike because they'd make her be more careful or confirm where Buffy is, or because she won't risk them telling her no? And do you think Willow did consider that Buffy could come back wrong, but she was willing to risk it because she needed to do this unnatural thing, or that she was so arrogantly sure of her powers and ability to do the spell that nothing could go wrong?
Love the early S6 Spike, heartbroken but able to be playfully snarky, hurt by the Bot and looking after Dawn, but still a bit of the Big Bad -- and that little smile while hiding in the bushes with Dawn as they listen to sounds of destruction and saying "Sounds like fun." LOL
Do you think she didn't want to tell Giles or Spike because they'd make her be more careful or confirm where Buffy is, or because she won't risk them telling her no?
I think it's more about them telling her no. They're harder to convince and deceive than the others. Willow had been hiding a lot of stuff from Tara, Xander and Anya. She knew they won't discover that because Tara blindly trusts Willow, and Xander doesn't know much about what it takes to bring back a person, and Anya doesn't care, she's more "Xander's in, I'm in". Giles, on the other hand, will do research on the spell, discuss it with Willow, discover the whole dark magic thing and refuse to help. As well as stand in Willow's way. Spike will insist on making sure that Buffy's soul is in hell before doing anything, but I guess he'll be easier to convince than Giles. I can actually see Spike doing that spell with them. I can see him being the one to remind them that they needed to get Buffy out of her coffin.
And do you think Willow did consider that Buffy could come back wrong, but she was willing to risk it because she needed to do this unnatural thing, or that she was so arrogantly sure of her powers and ability to do the spell that nothing could go wrong?
I think Willow was so sure of her powers, she never considered that Buffy would come back wrong. I also think her reasons for bringing back Buffy are more because she misses her and she believes Buffy is trapped in a hell dimension and needed to be rescued.
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I too, think not telling Spike and Giles is more about their refusing to let the Scoobies try the spell. Both would be aware of the possible consequences of doing something that, as well as the kind of magic required to make it happen. Although, I can see Spike wanting to bring Buffy back - his anger comes after he's seen her and seen how confused and not-thrilled she is.
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But even so, unless Willow was planning on magicking Buffy out of her coffin, there's no way that they would have had the time to dig six feet into the ground just seconds after Willow had completed her spell. I think they just forgot, or assumed it'd be okay, seeing as how so many other things have no trouble tunneling up from their graves.
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What?? But it's all tousled and BoR-styled in that scene! :) When he has it slicked back most of the time, that to me looks like yellow plastic helmet head. Late s5/early s6 is the only time he has a normal, popular hairstyle. It's still gelled to within an inch of his life, but at least I know real people who style their hair like that. The slicked back helmet thing is just... weird. (Someone said recently that it looks like Ramen noodles at times, the way you could see the wavy comb marks in it, which I think is hilariously accurate.)
I won't expect her to push her away. Not to mention that Buffybot is the robot version of Buffy, no wonder Dawn left her hugging her, she could picture that it was the real Buffy.
Well, yeah, I mean Dawn curls up in bed next to the bot, so hugging her? Not really a surprise. I think it was more about Dawn pretending it was really Buffy than it was about making the bot feel better, or being considerate of her feelings.
We really don't know if the Scoobies had a plan for getting Buffy out of the coffin. The demon bikers interrupted them, broke the urn and the Scoobies scattered thinking that their spell hadn't worked and they'd lost their last chance to do it.
Er, yeah, but if they hadn't been interrupted and the spell had worked, they'd still have a resurrected Buffy in her coffin, six feet under, which they'd have to dig out while she slowly suffocates to death. And notice, none of them had shovels. If they were going to dig her up, they should've done it before they started the spell, so they're still kind of idiots...
Although, I can see Spike wanting to bring Buffy back - his anger is after he's seen her and seen how confused and not-thrilled she is.
I think it's telling that when Spike theorizes why they didn't tell him, he doesn't say, "Because I would've stopped you" or "Because I would've said it was wrong." He says, "Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her. And that's why she shut me out." That makes it sound like Spike would've been pretty much on board with the resurrection thing (particularly if he'd believed she was in a hell dimension like the rest of them - he wouldn't want her to suffer, either), but he would've been too protective of zombie-Buffy. I think that reasoning is actually pretty similar to why they didn't tell Dawn - if they brought back something that wasn't really Buffy, it would've been so hard on Dawn to let them kill her again, to have been promised her sister back and have her taken away again. She might not have let them kill whatever came back, either.
I don't know if that was actually Willow's reasoning for not telling Spike or not, but if that's what Spike thinks, I think it says a lot about how he would've reacted if he'd known. I also think it's interesting that Spike thinks Willow was doubting her abilities (considering that Buffy might come back wrong), or at the very least, covering all her bases, when it seems like the general reaction on this discussion thread is that Willow never even entertained the possibility that she might not get it right.
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See my (self-pimp) Consequences for a possible scenario in which Spike does what must be done. Consequences
I am upper management.
Whenever someone questioned that something will go wrong, Willow right away says that "Nothing will go wrong." Which makes me believe that she never suspected that she will fail or that the results will go badly.
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Was it really in a cemetery? There were no other headstones around, I don't believe...
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I think that telling Giles and Dawn would bring in the very real potential of opposition to her plans - once the immediate family members (Giles as the symbolic father figure) say "No" - she would have been completely on the wrong side. Her working theory, that Buffy is in a Hell dimension, could have been disputed by Giles and she had already decided to resurrect her. Spike, again like Giles would have been on the side of "what would have been best for Buffy and her spiritual existence." Even though he helped Dawn try to resurrect Joyce, I think he has developed beyond that phase of his life. Giles, Dawn and Spike in opposition to her plans presented potential block to her choices. I believe that she only brings in the other three because she needs them physically for the ritual.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Well, of course she's going to say that, because if she seems hesitant or doubtful about whether it will work, I could see the whole plan crumbling in no time. Xander and Tara were already wavering, and so Willow had to be confident to convince them. That doesn't mean that secretly she didn't have doubts or concerns that she never expressed to anyone else.
I think a lot of Willow's hubris in season six comes from actually pulling off the resurrection spell. Yes, she was already a very skilled witch and had pulled off some impressive spells, but resurrecting Buffy crossed a huge line in terms of her abilities. It shows in her conversation with Giles - she thinks so much more of herself now that she's done this spell, a spell she thought no one in the world could do. I think the fact that she did it, and did it successfully (for the most part), is what made her think she was such a hot-shot powerful witch. So it wouldn't surprise me if she still had doubts prior to doing the spell, and just never shared them.
Was it really in a cemetery? There were no other headstones around, I don't believe...
Hard to say. Could've been a remote corner of a cemetery, could've been someplace else. But either way, there's always a chance someone could've stumbled across it. Did they have to write her name on the headstone? Wouldn't an unmarked (or at least unnamed) grave be safer?
I assumed it was since that's where the dead are usually buried. It may not have been, I suppose.
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
An unmarked grave would have been safer. Except...not many people, well, demons know the slayer by name. They know what Buffy looks like and what have you, but not who she is for the most part. And it did look pretty remote, so it could have either been an unused part of a cemetery, or...when the demons interrupt, aren't they pretty close to the woods?
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While the script does imply that Spike would have tried to hold on to and protect a resurrected Buffy, even if she had come back not entirely the same - I don't believe that Spike or Dawn would have tried keeping Buffy alive if she had been obviously damaged and in great pain or emotional trauma. It would be just like having a person you love suffering from a horrible disease - while there is great suffering from loss, Spike and Dawn would want to bring peace to Buffy.
The Spike that counted the days that Buffy was not living loved her enough, to let her die again if she really needed to - same for Dawn and all her friends. Problem is that mental suffering, and especially with Buffy trying the Play Acting Mode, is so much harder to understand and see while a great physical illness is obvious. It is extremely common for people to avoid trying to deal or understand mental and emotional illness - mainly because people feel completely helpless. Which of her friends could really help Buffy, especially if she was trying to control or deny her anger.
Another very common thing is to attack people who you know will not try to defend themselves or who you can use as object for sublimation. Spike is the greatest object of sublimated anger/hatred of the entire series - Dawn takes a lot of Buffy's anger but not her hatred. In "Normal Again" while Buffy in great conflict over Spike - it is her friends that show up in her dream and that she is tempted to kill. Buffy is one very messed up young woman.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
True, he doesn't indicate that he would have stopped them. But would he have believed she was in a hell dimension? Would Willow have been able to convince him of that? And if he didn't believe it, would he have still been on board with a resurrection? I don't think anyone else would have done what they did if they knew they were pulling her out of heaven.
Willow is able to get the gang to do the spell because she believes Buffy is in a hell dimension. Would Spike (or Giles) have been as easy to convince? I assume it was Willow who first came up with the idea that Buffy was in hell, at least. Though I wonder if she thought Buffy was in hell and began coming up with ways to get her out, or thought of a resurrection spell (even as a what if), and then justified it with the idea that her death was mystical and began considering that Buffy could be in hell.
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I am upper management.
Canon wise, he in fact does...
BUFFY: I'm here. I'm good.
SPIKE: (walks back to her) Buffy, if you're in ... if you're in pain ... or if you need anything... or if I can do anything for you...
BUFFY: (looks down at her lap) You can't.
SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about torment.
Anyway, I never thought she was in Hell until Willow said it. Then I was like, "Oh. Is she?" I just thought she was dead, and she went off to some spiritual place. I definitely didn't think of some place full of torment.
She didn't disappear into the portal, she fell through it and hit the ground. It was a more or less natural death, and there was body.
Maybe Willow thought hell not only because of the dimensional walls thing, but also because maybe what Buffy did could be considered not just self sacrifice, but suicide, which for some automatically means hell.
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I think that's a tough call. I agree, if they knew they were pulling her out of heaven, no one would've done it, including Spike. But if they'd been uncertain, or if they thought they were just raising the dead and Buffy wasn't really anywhere (i.e. if there is no afterlife), I think it would be a very, very tough choice for Spike. He'd probably want to do what's best for Buffy, but if they don't know for certain that she's happier where she is, his desire to have her back might just overwhelm his caution.
She didn't disappear into the portal, she fell through it and hit the ground. It was a more or less natural death, and there was body.
The fact that there was a body doesn't make it a natural death. Everyone on the show calls it a mystical death, and that's the explanation for why they could bring her back and not Tara, so I don't think it was the fall that killed her. As far as I can tell, she had the life sucked out of her by the portal, and was already dead when she fell to the ground. Given that the portal was the gateway to millions of dimensions, I can see why they might have thought her metaphysical essence or soul or whatever got stuck in one of them, though they shouldn't have automatically assumed it was a hell dimension.
Notice that even in "Tabula Rasa," when they talk about it, Tara says, "It could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions." Even after everything is out in the open, they still believe she was in an alternate dimension, not the religious/spiritual idea of heaven. I would guess that's a result of none of them being particularly religious. (For the same reason, I'd say Willow probably wasn't thinking suicide = sin = hell.)
It's not clear to me at all that Daddy dearest is calling at all.
DAWN: Um ... it could be my dad. (to Willow) He said he'd call today.
Which implies that he did call... it still doesn't make him a good father.
Right you are Sosa - which raises another question or six - Does Hank know that Buffy is dead? Why doesn't he come to see about Buffy and Dawn? He surely must know that Joyce is dead. And, he must also know that whatever money Joyce left them wasn't going to last forever. He's still a jerk.
Canon wise, he in fact does...
True, but that was right after she'd gotten back, and hadn't contradicted them about her being in hell. And she was acting traumatized, though it was for an entirely different reason. But if he'd had weeks or months (how long were the Scoobies planning the spell?) to consider it, would he have taken Willow's word for it?
*shrug* I thought he came to that conclusion all on his own. I mean, since the others kept him in the dark...or maybe he heard Willow say, "We got you out, Buffy" or whatever it was she said. Maybe Spike couldn't get past, "She's dead and gone." Or maybe he did contemplate heaven and hell...okay, I'm not helping :P
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Also, if he hadn't overheard, his "hole in the middle of a soggy group hug" comment would have been creepily insightful, even for Spike, considering that's exactly what they were doing before Buffy walked out there. :)
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