BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Joyce

Nov 26 2008 03:31 am   #1RedRobin
I know that the episode discussions have already moved beyond Season 5 and Joyce's death, but seeing how unprepared Buffy was for real life in Season 6 brought up a question about Joyce for me.

What do you think of Joyce's role in Buffy's life? She was a single parent raising one and then two teenage daughters, and Buffy is the Slayer, so I can understand her not spending a lot of time talking to Buffy about life after college or getting a job.

But at the same time, Buffy doesn't even know how to drive. She doesn't seemed to have had a job before Life Serial, and has no idea how to pay the bills or check her finances. I think she mentioned during Season 4 how Joyce was paying for everything in college as well.

I felt like, at least when Joyce was in the hospital, she should have talked to Buffy about what she would need to do if something happened to Joyce. Buffy seems to hold herself and the bills together right after Joyce's death, so maybe it was just the overwhelming debt that came with being ressurrected that caught her off guard.

Also, does anyone know what happened to Joyce's gallery?
Nov 26 2008 08:39 am   #2Guest
Buffy doesn't even know how to drive. She doesn't seemed to have had a job before Life Serial
i never did understand why she never learned how to drive, that was a huge goal in my life when i was that age. but the whole not having a job thing i can see happening. i had a job as soon as i was old enough, but i knew plenty of people that never had jobs because their parents paid for every thing. they really had no sense of money but always had the option to just ask for more. if her mom made enough, they proly had nice clothes all the time and ate name brand food all the time, and even if they didn't i don't think sunday afternoon grocery shopping trips with mom were something buffy did. at least when Joyce was in the hospital, she should have talked to Buffy about what she would need to do if something happened to Joyce i think that the basics, or rather what alot of people take for granted as the basics of life without you mother, were the last things that they would have discussed. stuff about the funeral and maybe big stuff about the house, ex. where the insurance policies and other important paper work and stuff was located, but other then an off handed " make sure dawn does her homework" i don't think that "walmart is cheaper then publix so you should grocery shop there" was really high on the list. not saying joyce was a bad mother, but a great deal of parents these days really don't properly prepare their children for the world. look at the financial crisis america is in now. because people didn't know thir spending limits and just kept asking for more money, until it wasn't there and then still just kept askin' for more. xander was proly the only one with any money sense, and in reality it showed. he had a job, he had obligations, but he also had an apartment of his own later on, and until he could afford that he lived in the basement.
Nov 26 2008 06:18 pm   #3Spikez_tart

Buffy and driving - Buffy can drive, she just doesn't do it very well.  She manages to drive the armoured car used by the Council thugs when they come to grab Faith and she drives (and wrecks) her mother's SUV in Band Candy.  Driving in the the Buffyverse is closely connected with having sex.  Buffy's dream about the cup breaking and her discussion with Joyce - "do you think you're ready", is followed by Buffy's disastrous night with Angel; Xander gets his uncle's car and then has disastrous sex with Faith; Spike takes a motorcycle away from one of the Hell's Demons and soon after has sex with Buffy.  For a more intensive discussion see http://slayageonline.com/essays/slayage13_14/Rogers_Scheidel.htm   (Their ideas, I'm not smart enough to figure this out.)  Interesting that later the metaphor shifts to coffee.  I'm sure there's a scholarly paper in there, too.

For another practical matter, Buffy's ability to cook, which Joyce must have taught her, often comes in for comedy abuse in fanon, but in several episodes, particularly Pangs, she shows that she is able to do something besides poor cereal out of a box.

Joyce as Mom - I've fan wanked about this at length elsewhere but Joyce and all the parents in the Bverse are pretty substandard.  Joyce may be the best of the bunch.  Perhaps she is too busy or distracted to make sure Buffy knows things like how to balance the checkbook.  I would have liked to see a Buffy gets to babysit episode.  That would have been a hoot. 

There's an indication that Joyce drinks, she is floundering with trying to control Buffy and gets all her parenting knowledge from books and doesn't seem to have the slightest clue what Buffy is up to most of the time.  All this is bearable because Joyce loves Buffy to pieces.  Unlike Xander's parents - drunk and abusive, Willow's parents - so devoted to their careers that they could care less what Willow does, Amy's toxic mother who takes over Amy's life literally.  Giles and Hank, Buffy's 'fathers' both abandon and betray her at various times.  Once again, we can accept Giles' faltering fatherhood because he loves Buffy.  Hank is too busy banging his secretary to care about her.  I think only Fred's parents turned out to be all around good. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 26 2008 07:01 pm   #4pfeifferpack
About the gallery....excellent question.  It fell through the cracks of plot devices they came up with to make Buffy's "normal" life so crushing.  The insurance was mentioned and I think they spoke of Joyce's savings....both in reference to having been spent on medical bills and upkeep while Buffy was dead but no mention of the gallery or the items she had there.  Clearly there would be some profit from it that would have kept Buffy out of that cow hat and allowed a space of time to look about more!  They simply ignored that and the likely avenue of child support from Hank for Dawn (even if she was inserted in their lives it would have been a detail the monks would likely have included).

Kathleen
The financial help from the gallery was ignored as was the rest of the Gem of Amara treasure...Spike was not so stupid that he couldn't get his hands on some of that as well.  They chose to ignore those pieces of the past in the interest of making life suck for Buffy.
Nov 26 2008 08:03 pm   #5Eowyn315
Buffy doesn't even know how to drive.
I think this was more about Buffy being a terrible driver than never learning how. She's got enough of the basics to drive cars on occasion, but she clearly has poor spatial judgment and not much concept of the speed limit or smooth driving. Some people are just bad drivers.

She doesn't seemed to have had a job before Life Serial, and has no idea how to pay the bills or check her finances.
Well... she does have a job, as she points out often. She just doesn't get paid for it. Honestly, between school and slaying, where was she supposed to fit in a job? The only time she really could've done that is season 5 when she's not in school, and then she's preoccupied with taking care of her mom.

As for the finances thing, I learned how to make a budget, pay bills, and balance a checkbook in school, so my parents never taught me that stuff. I'm not really sure what age most people learn it, but I can buy a college student not being familiar with it, if they've always had parents to pay the bills for them.

There's an indication that Joyce drinks
That's mostly fanon. We only see her drink on two occasions, and both are high-stress situations. I'd be knocking 'em back, too, if my daughter told me she was a vampire slayer. :) The idea that Joyce drank a lot or was an alcoholic is all fanon.

It fell through the cracks of plot devices they came up with to make Buffy's "normal" life so crushing.
I think it would make sense if it was sold at some point, either because there was no one to run it, or because the dire financial situation required cash on hand, rather than tied up in an asset like that. It probably only would've taken one line to explain it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 26 2008 08:16 pm   #6RedRobin

Wow, I didn't equate Buffy's problems with driving with her relationship problems with Angel or Riley, but now I see the connection. Thanks for the link.

On the subject of jobs, it was less that Buffy already had one has the Slayer, but instead that Joyce seemed willing to coddle her before that. She doesn't have a steady income; it came off to me that Joyce was paying for any and all of her expenses. I was wondering why it never came up that Joyce probably wouldn't be supporting her forever (of course, that would lead to a Council paycheck, which is a whole 'nother ballgame).

Joyce's gallery falling through the cracks just unsettled me a bit; she seemed to spend so much time working there, it was odd no one ever mentioned it again.

 

Nov 26 2008 09:49 pm   #7Eowyn315
On the subject of jobs, it was less that Buffy already had one has the Slayer, but instead that Joyce seemed willing to coddle her before that. She doesn't have a steady income; it came off to me that Joyce was paying for any and all of her expenses.
I don't think that's all that unusual for a middle-class teenager. How many expenses do you think she has, really? Other than college, which it's not unusual for parents to pay for. It's not like we see Buffy asking for money or doing a lot of expensive things - she doesn't drink or party a lot, she doesn't take trips, she doesn't have a car, cell phone, or computer. In fact, compared to Cordelia (who is clearly established as being rich and frivolous with money), Buffy seems more than practical for a teenager. The only thing she has that's expensive is her wardrobe, which I think can partially be explained by her dad trying to buy her love in the early seasons (see "When She Was Bad" ), and just a general TV trope where characters rarely wear the same clothes more than once. The way Buffy makes a point about whether they can afford her dress in "Prophecy Girl" makes it sound like they're not spending a lot of money on clothes, so that's more of a problem with the costuming department than a characterization issue.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 26 2008 11:39 pm   #8Spikez_tart
There's an indication that Joyce drinks - That's mostly fanon. We only see her drink on two occasions, and both are high-stress situations. I'd be knocking 'em back, too, if my daughter told me she was a vampire slayer. The idea that Joyce drank a lot or was an alcoholic is all fanon.

That's why I said indication.  It's certainly never spelled out in the way Xander's parents drinking and fighting is shown, there's just a faint hint.  This exchange from Becoming 2, seems to show that Joyce having a drink is a little more than a sometime thing. 

BUFFY:  I'm a Slayer, not a postal worker. Cops can't fight demons. I have to do it.
JOYCE:  Do what? Buffy, what is happening?
BUFFY:  Just have another drink.

Buffy is about enough to make anybody consider a martini their close personal friend.  :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Nov 28 2008 02:17 am   #9Eowyn315
This exchange from Becoming 2, seems to show that Joyce having a drink is a little more than a sometime thing.
Eh... not necessarily. Remember, Buffy's pretty stressed, too, and she doesn't want to deal with this when she's got so many other problems already. It could be read as Buffy thinking another drink will keep her occupied and thus out of Buffy's hair - "Just have another drink and stop asking questions, so I can do my job," not "Just have another drink, since that's what you always do."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Nov 28 2008 11:08 am   #10Guest
wot ever did become of joyce the actress
Nov 28 2008 11:16 am   #11Guest
Kristine Sutherland has had a few small roles and commercials since, but she seems to want to live a quieter life with her husband.
Nov 28 2008 11:27 am   #12nmcil
The financial help from the gallery was ignored as was the rest of the Gem of Amara treasure...Spike was not so stupid that he couldn't get his hands on some of that as well. They chose to ignore those pieces of the past in the interest of making life suck for Buffy.

Unless the treasure was blocked off by that sink hole that is mentioned - this idea that Spike would have ignored the treasure and kept some for his financial needs is totally illogical.   It would have been super easy to insert a line about  money from the gallery as well as the insurance being used up with hospital bills. 
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