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Smashed: Episode Discussion

Dec 24 2008 05:03 pm   #1sosa lola

- Who said Buffy doesn't do the cute braids thing with her hair? I think wearing her hair like this is more practical for slayage. Ditto for ponytails. 

- I'm guessing Buffy's "No!" to Spike is more about him interfering than warning him that the guy he's attacking is a human. She was having fun taunting the muggers and Spike ruined it for her.

- Um, when Buffy accuses Spike about not noticing that they were humans, I wish someone pointed out to her that SHE didn't notice that as well.

- Spike is so desperate for her to acknowledge him that he follows her around to help, reminds her of their kissing and then tells her that he's the only one there for her. It won't work on Buffy. She never seemed to enjoy the clinging type of men. If Spike started to ignore her, she'll be at his crypt every night. Lol

- Is Willow too dumb or being ignorant? She thinks Tara left her for "no good reason", she doesn't realize that what she had done to Tara was awful? And to think this girl was the most mature and smart out of her, Buffy and Xander back in high school.

- Heh, Willow suddenly gets the epiphany on how to get Amy back to be a human. The writers could have done a better job than that.

- Poor Amy still thinks she's in high school and hopes that Larry will ask her to the prom. I can't imagine how uncomfortable Willow feels about telling her that she's been a rat for three years.

- Urgh! Buffy was going to tell Willow about her and Spike!!! Damn you, Amy!

- "Okay, well, at least, you know, let me make up the, the couch for you? It's late, you should stay here. Everybody does." LOL, you know, if you don't want them staying in your house, Buffy, just kick them out.

- Why did Buffy look upset when Willow said that it's nice having another magically-inclined friend around? Buffy had been so happy to have another slayer friend around (Faith before she switched to the evil side), but that did upset Willow in high school, since Buffy seemed to enjoy spending time with Faith more than Willow.

- WILLOW: So, w-what were you gonna tell me? You were sounding all serious.
BUFFY: Huh? Oh. Uh, it's nothing. I mean, the whole Amy, rat, Amy thing ... no way I'm toppin' that.

I thought Buffy wanted Willow to be calm and understanding, which meant making the revelation about kissing Spike less shocking. Now suddenly she wants her news to top the Amy thing in the "Most shocking and unexpected."?

- Buffy checks on the frozen men, Spike appears again, Buffy rolls her eyes again, it's getting as repetitive as Xander dating demons, but I did laugh at this exchange:

BUFFY: But ... when I kissed you ... you know I was thinking about Giles, right?
SPIKE: You know, I always wondered about you two.

The Buffy/Giles fans must be squealing! Until Buffy makes the gross face.

- I don't like Spike's forceful approach. Girl says "Stop", he should have stopped and walked away with dignity. I honestly think Spike brought the beatings on himself because he was being too persistent, too Anya-annoying clingee. I mean, sure, Buffy kissed him twice and was being a bitch about it later, but seriously, man, have some self-respect. :D

- As the camera zooms on Spike while he smirks, isn't that the hottest shot of him? *fans herself*

- First thing Spike does after believing the chip has stopped working is feeding on a human, well, he's a vampire, so duh. Last time he had drunk human blood was when he stole that blood bag in the hospital in S5. I can see that he's nervous when trying to bite the woman, (nervous about his ability to do the act of biting after so long without being zapped or is it because he had been a good guy for so long it felt wrong to get back to being a big bad?) but I think he really wanted to bite her, seeing as the chip works on intention and it hurt Spike because he did intend to bite her. 

- Tara is playing the divorced parent role way too seriously. I'm surprised Dawn didn't think Tara was her big sister in Tabula Rasa, she's much closer to her than Buffy these days.

- Buffy and Xander are aware of Willow's irresponsible magic use, and they want to object on it but are too nervous to point it out. Is it because after being dumped by Tara, they feel they should go a little easy on her?

- XANDER: All right, back to basics. A little old-fashioned state-of-the-art hacker action.
BUFFY: That's great, Will, I haven't seen you do that in a long time.

I miss Computer Willow, too.

- ANYA: Oh, for crying out loud. This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. (pauses, smiles) Except me. (looks at Xander) Is this that thing I do that you were commenting- (Xander nods)

LOL!! Love it, Xander is doomed to date tactless, truth-saying women. That's why Spike is perfect for him. ;) Anya is right, though. Obviously, Xander and Buffy want Willow to stop it with the magic and indirectly try to get her to notice that she's been using too much of it. But they're not brave enough to say that to her face, which IMO isn't what true friendship is about. I don't want them to gang on her, but at least talk to her, tell her what she's doing is not right. She didn't listen to Tara, but maybe she would listen to her best friends.

- See how Amy's influence started to hurt Willow. She prays on Willow's insecurities and drives her to be reckless and irresponsible: "Or ... maybe ... you'd rather sit home all night, alone, like in high school." I don't know if Amy's motives are in the right place, she seems to resent Willow, either because Willow is a far superior witch or because she didn't switch her back faster.

- How was Warren able to examine the chip without opening Spike's head?

- Poor Dawn wants Tara and Willow together again, and for the first time doesn't object over having someone babysit her. ;)

- Willow drinks martini now? I don't know why but I've always pictured Willow younger than Buffy, unless she has the same fake ID Xander and Buffy had last year in Family.

- Xander and Anya are concerned about Willow and are aware of the problem she's having. They offer watching after her (but they never do, sadly), and Buffy is thinking about herself as usual, dismissing the fact that Willow is going to the wrong path, because she had always been the level-headed one.

- My heart hurt for Buffy when Spike told her she came back wrong, punching him over and over with so much frustration and desperation made me tear up a little. She's too depressed already, she doesn't want more shit thrown her way.

- Spike's taunting tone is him getting back at her for all the times she called him a "thing".

- Willow getting a taste of being bad after years of being the good, responsible Scooby, and she loves every second of it.

- BUFFY: You like me ... because you enjoy getting beat down. So really, who's screwed up?
SPIKE: Hello! Vampire!

Vampires like being beaten down? Or is that a metaphor for violent sex? Vampires like sex rough.

- Don't people react to the magical changes happening to them because of Willow and Amy? Or they forget about them after returning to normal?

- Buffy being "different" makes a whole new change for Buffy. Now she can go all the way with Spike because she's as unreal as him, her facial expression as they have sex shows a great range of emotions, she's given up being the strong, stable girl. Now she can just forget about everything else and feel what she forbade herself to feel: weak, reckless, and giving in to "wrong" temptations.

- The house falling down represents Buffy's world crashing down as hope and happiness died the second she was told she wasn't human anymore. And while she's insisting that Spike was lying, she already believed him, and she hated him more for bringing the awful news to her (and having such a joy in delivering it.)

Dec 24 2008 08:03 pm   #2Scarlet Ibis
Um, when Buffy accuses Spike about not noticing that they were humans, I wish someone pointed out to her that SHE didn't notice that as well.
I thought she did.  Her "Come on--rush me.  It'll be funny" implied to me that since they're human, it'll have no effect on her, and their shock, being the "little woman" that she is, would be funny to her.    Also the "Just a good ol fashion mugging" implies human and not demon.  I thought that was why she yelled "No" to Spike, cause it would give him a headache.  And then she pokes fun of him, which is contradictory.

If Spike started to ignore her, she'll be at his crypt every night.
This is quite true :P  Unfortunately for him, he's physically incapable of doing so.

I thought Buffy wanted Willow to be calm and understanding, which meant making the revelation about kissing Spike less shocking. Now suddenly she wants her news to top the Amy thing in the "Most shocking and unexpected."?
Could be she was looking for that, wanting Willow to tell her it was "wrong" or whatever.  Or maybe by Willow talking about her new magically inclined friend, Buffy thought they'd have more time together since Tara was gone.  Maybe Spike's "I'm the only one here for you" got her thinking.  *shrug*

BUFFY: But ... when I kissed you ... you know I was thinking about Giles, right?
Pfft.  That's a load of poppycock.  She could have remained sitting at the bar wallowing if that was the case.  You don't hop up and chase somebody down to make out with them if you're being sad about something else.  She only did that cause Spike walked away.

I honestly think Spike brought the beatings on himself because he was being too persistent, too Anya-annoying clingee.
Yeah, this reminds me of when Xander punched Anya that one time.  Oh wait...When Xander wanted space, he used words.  He expressed it verbally.

I can see that he's nervous when trying to bite the woman, (nervous about his ability to do the act of biting after so long without being zapped or is it because he had been a good guy for so long it felt wrong to get back to being a big bad?) but I think he really wanted to bite her, seeing as the chip works on intention and it hurt Spike because he did intend to bite her.
He was talking himself into it.  Does he try to bite her?  Yes.  Do I think he would have drained her if he'd been capable?  I don't.  The last time he had his fangs in a human neck, he looked so incredibly disturbed before "vamping up."  Hanging out with the cows has had an effect on him.  It was obvious then, and more obvious in that alley. 

SPIKE: Just 'cause she's confused about where she fits in, I'm supposed to be too? 'Cause I'm not. (pacing back and forth) I know what I am. I'm dangerous. I'm evil.
WOMAN: (scared) I-I'm sure you're not evil.
SPIKE: Yes, I am. I am a killer. (moves closer to her) That's what I do. I kill. And, yeah, maybe it's been a long time, but ... it's not like you forget how.

He gets up very close to the woman, who is panting fearfully.

SPIKE: You just ... do it. (nervously) And now I can, again, all right? So here goes.

More than that, Buffy just got through calling him, "an evil, disgusting thing," so he finds himself, once again, trying to be who Buffy wants him to be.  Spike usually has the knee jerk reaction of, "Oh, I'll show her just how blankity blank I can be.  Let's see the shock on that bitch's face."  And not just with Buffy, but in general.  We've seen this from him since season two--remember him finally getting out of that wheel chair, silently telling Angelus of the fun he was going to have?

I'm surprised Dawn didn't think Tara was her big sister in Tabula Rasa, she's much closer to her than Buffy these days.
True, but Buffy and Dawn have a physical connection, being made from her and all, so that surpassed Tara and Dawn's closeness, IMO.

Is it because after being dumped by Tara, they feel they should go a little easy on her?
I always thought that it was because Willow was the most responsible, so maybe they're like just bending to what she wants because she's the "leader" of them or whatever, morally.  Between the three of them, before Willow's cop outs with magic, she's the one who made the least amount of mistakes.The fact that she was dumped by Tara because of magic overruse would be a great reason to call her on it, as Anya does.  Usually it's Xander to hop on the "intervention" bandwagon, but maybe (and I think this is true), it sounded much better coming from Anya in a blunt way

See how Amy's influence started to hurt Willow.
Well, it's not like Willow wasn't looking for a reason, hence her un-ratting out Amy in the first place.  I'm not going to use the excuse of peer pressure on this one.

How was Warren able to examine the chip without opening Spike's head?
He only checked it's power/frequency.

BUFFY: You like me ... because you enjoy getting beat down. So really, who's screwed up?
SPIKE: Hello! Vampire!
Vampires like being beaten down? Or is that a metaphor for violent sex? Vampires like sex rough.

I don't think it says anywhere that vampires enjoy rough sex.  In fact, we don't see rough sex until this season--Buffy always set the pace.  Spike enjoys fighting, yes, and Buffy is of the mind that he likes getting hit by her ( "For Spike, that's like second base" ) which isn't true.  Spike enjoys fighting--a challenge--not getting beat down (anyone notice his "excitement" with the Glory torture?  No).  The "what's your excuse?" comment though is good--why does she enjoy hitting so much?

Now she can go all the way with Spike because she's as unreal as him, her facial expression as they have sex shows a great range of emotions, she's given up being the strong, stable girl. Now she can just forget about everything else and feel what she forbade herself to feel: weak, reckless, and giving in to "wrong" temptations.
Maybe she does think of herself as "unreal" or whatever, but there's nothing to give in to.  Spike asked her about making out--not about her literally jumping on top of his penis.  "Shocked" doesn't even begin to describe his facial expression.  Again, peer pressure is a piss poor excuse, especially when it wasn't even represented here.  Spike never asked her about sex.

The house falling down represents Buffy's world crashing down as hope and happiness died the second she was told she wasn't human anymore.
I disagree.  If the house had to have any symbolic meaning, I'd give it to representing Spike.  A quiet, dark, hollowed structure, still as death until Buffy enters it.  Then it moves, trembles and shakes--it feels ( "If my heart could beat, it would break my chest" ), until it is broken down completely (which is what happens to Spike).  The ending shot is of Buffy on top of him, with the dust settling (ETA: and as we know, the Spike and Buffy story ends on ashes--twice, with the re-emergence with his soul, burning him, and then the literal burning in the Hell Mouth). 

Also, as we find out later, sex with Spike makes her "feel," and is the only thing that makes her happy, so I wouldn't say that  happiness is not dead for Buffy, but that it lives.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 24 2008 08:41 pm   #3sosa lola

I thought she did. Her "Come on--rush me. It'll be funny" implied to me that since they're human, it'll have no effect on her, and their shock, being the "little woman" that she is, would be funny to her.

Yeah, she did, but she didn't recognize them as humans until she punched one of them. So she made the same mistake as Spike.

Pfft. That's a load of poppycock. She could have remained sitting at the bar wallowing if that was the case. You don't hop up and chase somebody down to make out with them if you're being sad about something else. She only did that cause Spike walked away.

I don't know. I do think that being depressed over Giles leaving pushed her to seek comfort from Spike's lips. :D At first she was stubborn to his attempt of help, but then she couldn't handle it alone. So, she followed Spike and kissed him to "feel" again, because Giles' departure made her too numb.

Yeah, this reminds me of when Xander punched Anya that one time. Oh wait...When Xander wanted space, he used words. He expressed it verbally.

When did Xander want space? Anya's clingy-ness annoys me, not Xander. I suspect he enjoys all the attention. Even Buffy commented on it in S5, "Look at who Anya is following around like a puppy." Also, Anya admits to clinging to Xander in S7.

Does he try to bite her? Yes. Do I think he would have drained her if he'd been capable? I don't.

He does talk himself into biting her, but if that wasn't his intention, then why did the chip fire? It works on intention, doesn't it?

Well, it's not like Willow wasn't looking for a reason, hence her un-ratting out Amy in the first place.

I don't think she de-ratted Amy to be bad and have fun, she just realized how to do it, and she just did it. Her intentions weren't selfish when she did it.

Willow is already sinking, and Amy is pushing her to sink more. She's a bad friend, who obviously has it in for Willow.

Spike enjoys fighting, yes, and Buffy is of the mind that he likes getting hit by her ( "For Spike, that's like second base" ) which isn't true.

But when she said that he's screwed up because he enjoys being beaten down, that he's in love with pain, he replies, "Hello! Vampire!" as an excuse to him loving being beaten down.

Spike asked her about making out--not about her literally jumping on top of his penis.

I haven't been talking about Spike. I was talking about Buffy. Jumping to sex with Spike seemed to be the result of being brought back wrong, that now she can be bad and give in to the wrong-ness seeing as she's not fully human anymore. There's a reason she wants Spike, which is the fact that she's brought back wrong. The old Buffy wouldn't have these feelings.

If the house had to have any symbolic meaning, I'd give it to representing Spike. A quiet, dark, hollowed structure, still as death until Buffy enters it. Then it moves, trembles and shakes--it feels ( "If my heart could beat, it would break my chest" ), until it is broken down completely (which is what happens to Spike). The ending shot is of Buffy on top of him, with the dust settling.

This is poignant. I still think that it applies to Buffy, too.

Dec 24 2008 08:51 pm   #4Scarlet Ibis
When did Xander want space?
"Harsh Light of Day."

He does talk himself into biting her, but if that wasn't his intention, then why did the chip fire? It works on intention, doesn't it?
It absolutely does.  I'm just saying his intent may not have been to kill, or that if it was, that he would not have been able to follow through with it.

she just realized how to do it, and she just did it. Her intentions weren't selfish when she did it.
Yeah, but she realizes it when she's sad and lonely.  Just saying.

Jumping to sex with Spike seemed to be the result of being brought back wrong, that now she can be bad and give in to the wrong-ness seeing as she's not fully human anymore. There's a reason she wants Spike, which is the fact that she's brought back wrong.
Only she wasn't brought back wrong.  She was looking for a cop out for her lusty feelings for Spike, and he gave her one.  I know you were talking about Buffy, what I'm saying is that...she puts this label of "bad" on it herself--no one else does.  And the fact that she thinks that being brought back "wrong" gives her some sort of green light to have sex with him/jump on him, well, again, that's all coming from her.  That's all I meant.  There shouldn't have been a need to "give in" to anything, because no one expected her to.  Except for Buffy, who wanted it all along.  There was no one tempting her with anything.  I hope that made some sense, lol.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 24 2008 09:05 pm   #5Scarlet Ibis
But when she said that he's screwed up because he enjoys being beaten down, that he's in love with pain, he replies, "Hello! Vampire!" as an excuse to him loving being beaten down.
I don't think he meant it that way.  When do we ever see Dru or Harmony smack him around/beat him up, if that was the case?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 24 2008 09:06 pm   #6Spikez_tart
Clothes - Tara, Dawn and the girl Spike attacks are all wearing hoods; the girl is wearing a red hood, always a favorite in the Buffyverse.  Buffy wears a very romantic lace top, not her usual style.  In the alley, Buffy and Spike are both wearing matching clothes - black leather - a blue jacket for Buffy and an unusual royal blue shirt for Spike. 

Willow attitude - compare Willow's total cool after losing Tara to her meltdown after losing Oz.  She's totally blase when the others are around, has plenty of phony explanations.  Even alone, she's sad and lonely, but not in the pits of depression as when Oz left. 

He was talking himself into it.  - not only does Spike have to talk himself into attacking the girl, but he's completely lost his finess in catching victims.  Compare to the way he catches Sheila in School Hard.  He makes no attempt to trap Sheila, just tricks her into coming along while he kills her companions behind her back.  He's totally lost his touch.

When Spike tells Buffy that the chip doesn't work on her, but still works on everyone else, she believes him!  She should be pulling that stake out right now and going after Spike, instead she argues then has sex with him.

BUFFY: It's a trick. You did something to the chip, it's a trick.
SPIKE: It's no trick. It's not me, it's you. Just you, in fact, that's the funny part. (punches her in the face) 'Cause you're the one that's changed. (punches again) That's why this doesn't hurt me.

Buffy's braids - she wears these for two episodes and other than the funny bit where she's jumping up and down trying to see over the crowd, it makes her look very childish and innocent.  Her makeup is also very pink cheeked.  On purpose I suppose considering Spike's "poor little girl" line.

The abandoned house - okay the weirdness of having a run down house in the middle of the Sunnydale business district aside, I think the house symbolizes Buffy's old life that has been destroyed (dead).  She and Spike continue the destruction process which leaves her free to start a new life.  I like the house as metaphor for Spike, too.  The writers claimed that it showed how bad the Buffy/Spike relationship was, which makes no sense.

Warning sign - When Warren is explaining to Spike that his chip is working fine, you see a blurred "Do Not Enter" sign over Warren's shoulder.  Message for Spike?


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 24 2008 09:40 pm   #7sosa lola
"Harsh Light of Day."

I don't really remember. Can you give me the scene?

Yeah, but she realizes it when she's sad and lonely. Just saying.

I don't think it means anything. The fact that she was alone made her focus more apparently. Since Buffy's death, she had been to busy to focus on Amy, I guess. It doesn't mean that she only brought her back because she was lonely.

Only she wasn't brought back wrong.

She doesn't know that yet. Right now she believes Spike when he says that she was brought back wrong, and that fact explains why she has lusty feelings for him. She's using the info as an excuse to how she feels.

compare Willow's total cool after losing Tara to her meltdown after losing Oz.

I don't think Willow was "cool" to losing Tara. She's obviously depressed, but Amy's presence helped her cope a little. The circumstances are also different, Oz had cheated on her and left town. Tara had left because Willow made a mistake and she was still around.
Dec 24 2008 09:52 pm   #8Scarlet Ibis
I don't really remember. Can you give me the scene?
Right before Xander leaves out to go after Buffy.  Anya is trying to talk to him, and he gives her the brush off, saying he doesn't "have the time," leaving her standing there looking dejected. I'm sure there are other times in season four when he finds her annoying before they become a real couple and he gets used to it.  Anyway, the point was that when she is annoying to him, or he doesn't have time, he didn't put his hands on her to let her know it.  Xander, like Buffy, is way (physically) stronger than the two love sick saps who follow them around.

The fact that she was alone made her focus more apparently.
I agree, though it made her focus on not being alone, and how to fix it, IMO.

She's using the info as an excuse to how she feels.
Not disagreeing there, though I'm still not sure why she thinks she has to have sex with him because of it.

The circumstances are also different, Oz had cheated on her and left town.
I wouldn't say Oz cheated exactly...but at any rate, this time around, it is no doubt her fault that things are ruined.  So instead of placing a spell on herself to fix things or make herself feel better (like she was planning on doing to Oz), she makes a new buddy to hang with.  You have to admit it was pretty convenient that suddenly, she knew exactly how to not make Amy a rat.  I would think that such a spell was way easier (and it is) than a resurrection spell.  That, and another witch could only help with a bigger spell (like the resurrection spell).  Willow brought Amy back for mostly selfish reasons.  Not totally selfish, but mostly.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 24 2008 10:25 pm   #9sosa lola

Right before Xander leaves out to go after Buffy. Anya is trying to talk to him, and he gives her the brush off, saying he doesn't "have the time," leaving her standing there looking dejected.

While it was hurtful to Anya, I honestly don't blame Xander for how he acted. He was too worried about Buffy, seeing as Spike had finally gotten the gem and was going to kill Buffy. Xander had no time to discuss sex with Anya when his friend was in danger. Last night when Anya had showed up, he was very polite to her. Much more polite than Giles was. He didn't even mind her coming to his basement, and had told her that she was more romantic than Faith. Next day, it was Anya who started the "I'm over you" talk after they had sex, which probably reminded him of Faith again when she had thrown him out after she was done having sex with him.

I wouldn't say Oz cheated exactly

Oz had handled things wrong, he had the chance to tell Willow about Veruca, but he kept everything to himself until it blew up in his face. Willow finding him naked with Veruca was a big smack in the face, and right after that Oz left, without sending messages or making phone calls or giving Willow any hope that he would be back. He was her first ever real boyfriend, so that must stung hard. Notice how Willow's attitude and character changes after Oz' departure.

So instead of placing a spell on herself to fix things or make herself feel better (like she was planning on doing to Oz), she makes a new buddy to hang with.

I still don't agree that she brought Amy back to have a new magical friend. First she was talking about getting Amy a mouse buddy to keep her company, and second, she was telling Amy to visit her father and catch up. If her sole reason was wanting another witch in her life, then she wouldn't have bothered talking Amy into visiting her dad, she would have just grabbed her and took her out to party.

I would think that such a spell was way easier (and it is) than a resurrection spell.

It's easier, but Willow didn't know what it was back then to do it in the first place. Only when she was by herself she was able to figure out what the spell was.

Dec 24 2008 10:38 pm   #10Scarlet Ibis
While it was hurtful to Anya, I honestly don't blame Xander for how he acted.
I wasn't blaming Xander either.  My point was, when he was annoyed, or wanted to be left alone for whatever reason (he was off to find Buffy, and in "Smashed," Buffy was trying to find that "ice monster" or whatever she thought it was), he didn't give Anya a punch in the face to convey that message.

Notice how Willow's attitude and character changes after Oz' departure.
Besides becoming a lesbian, she doesn't change very much.  Her "woe is me" drinking, grieving period doesn't count.

I still don't agree that she brought Amy back to have a new magical friend.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here.  Tara leaves for Willow overusing magic, then when it's convenient for Willow, who's alone now, she now has a new magical friend to play with.  I could see her sitting there, reminiscing about the old high school days when she had other spell inclined people to hang with, then she thought of Amy the rat, which lead her to think of how to not make her a rat anymore in her time of need.  If Tara had still been there, i don't think she would have been so quick to figure out a way to fix Amy right then.

not only does Spike have to talk himself into attacking the girl, but he's completely lost his finess in catching victims.
That's a very good point.  Besides lucking up with catching some dingbat walking the alley at night alone, his hunting skills suck huge donkey balls.

When Warren is explaining to Spike that his chip is working fine, you see a blurred "Do Not Enter" sign over Warren's shoulder. Message for Spike?
I don't know why such a sign would be in a house...but it could be a foreshadowing to Warren's character in general.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 24 2008 10:50 pm   #11sosa lola
Besides becoming a lesbian, she doesn't change very much. Her "woe is me" drinking, grieving period doesn't count.

Actually, she grows more confident after Oz leaves, and of course, becomes gay. But when she was with Oz, she was still that insecure mousy girl.

Tara leaves for Willow overusing magic, then when it's convenient for Willow, who's alone now, she now has a new magical friend to play with. I could see her sitting there, reminiscing about the old high school days when she had other spell inclined people to hang with, then she thought of Amy the rat, which lead her to think of how to not make her a rat anymore in her time of need. If Tara had still been there, i don't think she would have been so quick to figure out a way to fix Amy right then.

I do think it is convenient and silly for her to just discover it right away. But I don't think Willow's intentions were selfish. She had been trying to de-rat Amy since she became a rat, even when Tara had been around, she just happened to figure it out after Tara left. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Dec 25 2008 07:40 am   #12nmcil
Does he try to bite her? Yes. Do I think he would have drained her if he'd been capable? I don't.He does talk himself into biting her, but if that wasn't his intention, then why did the chip fire? It works on intention, doesn't it?

One thing that I connect with this scene is that this is a device to help reiterate the Spike-Buffy destructive relationship - it, IMO, was used to reinforce to the viewers that Spike is not going to be allowed as a meaningful and positive love factor.  While Spike gives her the ability to feel and connect with her life on earth again,  because she is in such a state of chaos and emotional breakdown; with all his love that he wants to pour into her and to sustain her; she will never accept him as a true giver of life.   This is another wonderful rabbit hole contrast; that while Buffy takes and takes from him, and he gives his all, the writers have her going back to what she sees as her Life Again on Earth only at the point where he is no longer a part of her life - Into the light where he cannot follow.  But another very interesting  level, IMVHO, is that Buffy comes to this new understanding and phase after an episode that is all about fantasy with the Riley-Sam Perfect Couple. 

For me, that wrecking of the abandoned house could just as easily work as a place to build new life and relationship on - they writers and Joss Whedon do use it as a metaphor for their self-destructive relationship, but ultimately it does lead to transformation and new life for Spike.  I also love the titles as they apply to Buffy and Spike - while "Smashed" is used first, it seems to me that "Wrecked" is the more appropriate title for their "bringing down the house" and that "Smashed" fits more the lost dreams and opes that Spike probably expected from their sexual consummation.  Buffy truly stabbed his heart metaphorically with her "your just convenient."   All is smashed and wrecked, IMO, from this point on.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 25 2008 11:11 pm   #13Guest
she thought of Amy the rat, which lead her to think of how to not make her a rat anymore in her time of need.  - Actually Willow has the skill to de-rat Amy since at least Something Blue.  She transforms Amy during her My Will Be Done spell but it happens behind her back and she doesn't realize her own strength as it were.  So, double convenient that she manages it this time. 

Willow/Oz breakup vs Willow/Tara breakup - there are some differences, Oz is involved with Veruca and keeps it a secret in time honored Sunnydale tradition, but he doesn't leave because of some fault with Willow.  Except maybe her total lack of sex appeal :)  Tara leaves because she's convinced that Willow is going to harm herself or others and has become completely selfish.  Willow's la la la attitude, at least in public and her refusal to consider the opinions of Tara or any of her friends, shows that Tara is right.  Also, with Oz, there is the possibility that he could come back and resume the relationship.  There is no possiblity that Tara will come back until Willow shapes up and stops playing in the magic candy store.

Riley-Sam Perfect Couple.  - I hate to get ahead of the discussion, but I hate them so much.  Sam in particular.  Smug bitch.

Good guys/bad guys - with Giles gone, the two groups, Scoobies vs. Trio, are more in parity.  Buffy mirrored by Warren; Willow mirrored by Jonathan and Xander mirrored by Andrew a/k/a whatshis name.  One Giles (the ADULT) is removed, the Scoobies are pretty much as ineffectual as the Trio.  Interestingly, it's not until Willow gets a grip, rejects magic and tracks down Warren's van the hard way that they begin to have success fighting back against Warren and his tricks.

Comparing Buffy's relationship with Spike to Willow's abuse of magic - Overlooking the lameness of the Magic = Drugs theme, I really don't like to see the two problems compared.  Yeah, okay maybe Spike isn't the best thing for Buffy and she isn't being nice to him, but who are they hurting but themselves?  If they could be more open about being together they could even resolve the Dawn is a alone pseudo problem by either having sex at Buffy's house or arranging ahead of time for Dawn to stay elsewhere.  Also, if Buffy could have had a more positive relationship with Spike, it would have been good for him and pulled him to the good side faster. 

When Warren is explaining to Spike that his chip is working fine, you see a blurred "Do Not Enter" sign over Warren's shoulder. Message for Spike? I don't know why such a sign would be in a house...but it could be a foreshadowing to Warren's character in general.  The sign is supposed to be stolen by the Trio and hung up as a decoration.  (and shows what petty goofs they are) In that particular shot, we are seeing from Spike's point of view, so I think the message is specifically for him.  Once Spike finds out that his chip is working, he jumps to the conclusion that there is something wrong with Buffy and starts stalking her. 

If Warren is so know it all about the chip, why doesn't Spike ask Warren to short it out or something?  Warren isn't trustworthy, but neither was the doctor or Adam.  I think it doesn't actually cross Spike's mind, because he doesn't want to go back to his old way of life. 


Dec 25 2008 11:11 pm   #14Spikez_tart
Sorry that was me with the long rant.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 25 2008 11:18 pm   #15sosa lola
Actually Willow has the skill to de-rat Amy since at least Something Blue. She transforms Amy during her My Will Be Done spell but it happens behind her back and she doesn't realize her own strength as it were. So, double convenient that she manages it this time.

She's maybe capable of doing it but she doesn't realize the right spell to do it until Smashed.

Also, if Buffy could have had a more positive relationship with Spike, it would have been good for him and pulled him to the good side faster.

The problem is I don't think Buffy wants a relationship with Spike. She just wants the physical connection.



Dec 25 2008 11:22 pm   #16Scarlet Ibis
Buffy mirrored by Warren; Willow mirrored by Jonathan and Xander mirrored by Andrew a/k/a whatshis name.
I don't know--I'd almost see Willow as Warren (power tripping), Xander as Jonathan (sees his friends crumbling but does nothing) and Buffy as...okay, Warren fits there too.

Overlooking the lameness of the Magic = Drugs theme, I really don't like to see the two problems compared. Yeah, okay maybe Spike isn't the best thing for Buffy and she isn't being nice to him, but who are they hurting but themselves?
I agree mostly.  I can see where the comparison comes in though, even though the reasoning from most people IMHO is skewed.  Willow turns magic into a "bad/wrong addiction" when it doesn't have to be, and Buffy views sex with Spike in the same fashion, when again, it doesn't have to be.  The two of them sully what is supposed to be good with their own misuse and sad, sorry ideals.

In that particular shot, we are seeing from Spike's point of view, so I think the message is specifically for him. Once Spike finds out that his chip is working, he jumps to the conclusion that there is something wrong with Buffy and starts stalking her.
I don't know--in that moment, Warren has no direct effect on Spike.  Though I agree that he should have utilized the boy electronic genius to rid him of the chip or destroy its signal--but it's clear that's not what Spike wants.  If he wanted the chip out, he could have did it long ago.  Having Spike's chip out while he doesn't have a soul while working for the side of "good" would have been entirely too much for the writers to cope with in this seemingly black/white view they tried to make season six out to be.

Side note--he doesn't stalk Buffy.  Goes after her yes, but his stalking Buffy days are long gone.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 25 2008 11:26 pm   #17Scarlet Ibis
The problem is I don't think Buffy wants a relationship with Spike. She just wants the physical connection.
Also, Spike's an easy target.  He's in love with her.  If she just wanted physical connections, she could have went out and boned any regular Joe from the street.  She takes advantage of his love, cause she knows he isn't going to leave.  So it's more than just physical, cause she could be physical with anyone.  She doesn't become promiscuous or find a human partner...it's just Spike.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 26 2008 06:17 am   #18nmcil
If he wanted the chip out, he could have did it long ago. Having Spike's chip out while he doesn't have a soul while working for the side of "good" would have been entirely too much for the writers to cope with in this seemingly black/white view they tried to make season six out to be.

Spike working for or with The White Hats sans soul would have been a terrific alternative - but as you state, not within the parameters of the season or how the wanted to use the character.  It would have been such an interesting perspective, but very hard to deal with the history of Angel-Buffy and all the dogma Giles and Buffy expounded. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 26 2008 08:44 am   #19sosa lola
Also, Spike's an easy target. He's in love with her. If she just wanted physical connections, she could have went out and boned any regular Joe from the street. She takes advantage of his love, cause she knows he isn't going to leave. So it's more than just physical, cause she could be physical with anyone. She doesn't become promiscuous or find a human partner...it's just Spike.

I was talking from Buffy's POV, she's trying to convince herself that it's only physical, but it's obvious how much she's attracted to him. Plus, he's always around, trying to get her to kiss him again and talking love to her. As you said, he's the easiest guy she could just bang, not to mention the whole vampire without a soul thing. She can get away with shangging him and then leaving, but I don't think she'd want to do that with a human guy.
Dec 27 2008 05:54 am   #20nmcil
She can get away with shangging him and then leaving, but I don't think she'd want to do that with a human guy.

This just makes me think even harsher things about where they took her character - because putting it in your context, it makes it seem even worse.  It it a horrible thing to just take sex from another person, and from one that loves you - that's really harsh.  I think the writers really let the character down and the viewers.  They should have had the courage to address her mental breakdown or whatever she was going through and her turning to Spike and the relationship she creates with him.  I firmly believe that Buffy is the character in control of the disaster that becomes Buffy-Spike destructo.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 27 2008 06:23 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
he's the easiest guy she could just bang, not to mention the whole vampire without a soul thing. She can get away with shangging him and then leaving, but I don't think she'd want to do that with a human guy.
Yeah, I agree that makes her sound even worse.  Why is she able to get away with it?  Because he's soulless?  Then why not just do it to some random vampire who she can stake immediately after?  Why do that to someone who you know is in love with you?  That's just callous and cruel. 

Also, I meant "easiest" not because Spike was there, but because he was the only schmuck in town who was unfortunately in love with her.  If he hadn't been, she couldn't have pulled that crap on him.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Dec 27 2008 11:59 am   #22sosa lola
Then why not just do it to some random vampire who she can stake immediately after? Why do that to someone who you know is in love with you? That's just callous and cruel.

I don't think she wants to shag vampires. It's obvious Buffy thinks Spike is attractive and has feelings for him, she tried to stay away from him (so she won't slip, especially after they kissed in OMWF) but he's always there, making it impossible for her to control herself. She wants him, not any random person. Spike is the only one she feels connected and alive with, and that scares and disgusts her because he's a vampire without a soul, which makes her a disgusting person. That's why she tries to convince herself that it's all physical.
Dec 27 2008 05:27 pm   #23Scarlet Ibis
but he's always there, making it impossible for her to control herself.
That's not true.  Kissing, sure, but she makes it about sex.  She initiates sex, and the only reason she has a lack of self control is all from her own doing.  That wasn't him.  Also, about him "always being there" or whatever, that's outdoors, and it's not as if she has ever had a problem walking away from him, so that's still a lousy excuse. "Wah, Spike's always there...Let me just impale myself."  I don't think so.

And hey, if you can screw one soulless vamp, why not another?  After all, they're all equally disgusting and unreal to Buffy.  So why not find another soulless vamp who isn't in love with you to have sex with?  Because she wouldn't have control over them like she does Spike.  That's the only reason.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 27 2008 07:34 pm   #24nmcil
I for can't ignore that she turns to him for a connection with this world, that's the writers description not mine, and the metaphor that Spike is gives her "life sustenance" while all the time Buffy wants nothing more than to see him as more than only a vampire soulless demon.  The situation makes for compelling drama and splendid story telling, but, IMVHO, the missing element is the "why" - not of Spike but of her mental and emotional process.  Obviously the writers can't address all the elements that could be part of their story, but this one I do think was an important part of her story.  The writers, like with the Faith stabbing, choose to let very important themes out of their story. 

That's fine, after all it is their story to tell and the Fan Fiction writers can take these themes and explore them with greater depth and other interpretations.  What it does for me however, with this vital part of the arc not given more attention, is with a feeling that this facet of Buffy's resurrection arc is made weaker.  I don't think that the writers can just leave the implications for the character's emotional needs and conduct without getting into the theme with a lot more depth.  Sure, they were episodes in Season Seven that reference her conduct and their relationship again, but never, IMVHO, with anything that was appropriate to what happens in Season Six.  Just my opinion.


SPIKE: So this is worse then, is it, this is you telling me-

BUFFY: It's over.

SPIKE: I've memorized this tune, luv. Think I have the sheet music. Doesn't change what you want.

BUFFY: I know that. I do want you. Being with you ... makes things ... simpler. For a little while.

SPIKE: I don't call five hours straight a little while.

BUFFY: I'm using you. I can't love you. I'm just ... being weak, and selfish...

SPIKE: Really not complaining here.

BUFFY: ...and it's killing me. I have to be strong about this. I'm sorry ... William.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 27 2008 07:40 pm   #25sosa lola
And hey, if you can screw one soulless vamp, why not another?

Beacuse Spike is the soulless vampire she has feelings for, the one she's attracted to. She wants "him", and thinks it's wrong to want him, but it's hard for her to forget him when he's chasing her around, unable to take no for an answer. 

I'm not saying it's Spike's fault, but Buffy is obviously attracted to him and wants no random person/vampire as substitude. She wants Spike, but thinks it's wrong to want him so she tries to justify her desire and attraction to him by convincing herslef that it's just physical and there's nothing more.
Dec 28 2008 03:18 am   #26Spikez_tart
The problem is I don't think Buffy wants a relationship with Spike. She just wants the physical connection - I think Buffy would have accepted a friendly relationship, but Spike keeps pushing her buttons until she gives in to what she really wants. 

Buffy mirrored by Warren; Willow mirrored by Jonathan and Xander mirrored by Andrew a/k/a whatshis name.   I don't know--I'd almost see Willow as Warren (power tripping), Xander as Jonathan (sees his friends crumbling but does nothing) and Buffy as...okay, Warren fits there too.    I was thinking Warren as the leader/planner/brain; Jonathan similar to Willow because of the whole Superstar thing where he jerks everyone into another dimension or whatever he did and Andrew as being pretty much hopeless like Xander.

If he wanted the chip out, he could have did it long ago.   He certainly doesn't try very hard and if he couldn't get the chip out, he sure could have caused a lot of trouble and probably got Buffy and the others killed some way or other.  Maybe Buffy's observation in Something Blue was correct - he doesn't want them to let him out.  Not that the Big Bad would admit it of course.

Kissing, sure, but she makes it about sex.  She initiates sex, and the only reason she has a lack of self control is all from her own doing.  - Doesn't Buffy initiate all the kisses?  She kisses Spike after Glory beats him up and it's not a little peck on the cheek.  She chases after Spike into the alley in OMWF and they have a mutual kiss, in Tab Rasa she sends Spike away, then you see them kissing under the stairs - so there's an implication that Buffy went after him and did something to get things started and of course, she does kiss him first and initiate sex in Smashed.  Let's not forget that Faith (while in Buffy's body) plainly grabs him by the crotch and comes on to him and we don't know at what point Spike finds out that it was Faith.  I think Spike would interpret all of those things, except the first kiss, as sexual come ons.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 28 2008 04:36 am   #27Scarlet Ibis
Doesn't Buffy initiate all the kisses?
She does.  She initiates everything.  So saying "Spike's always around" is pretty pointless...He was around before (s4 and s5) when she wasn't trying to jump him, so there's no cause to do it now. 

She chases after Spike into the alley in OMWF and they have a mutual kiss, in Tab Rasa she sends Spike away, then you see them kissing under the stairs - so there's an implication that Buffy went after him and did something to get things started and of course, she does kiss him first and initiate sex in Smashed.
Yes--she does chase him.  It was nice of you to point that out, since it's been generally implied for the most part that Spike did all of the chasing, and was always hanging around.  She started it, and gave him a reason--multiple reasons--to hope for more.  So when he did try to walk away at first, well, he was chased down, so leaving fully was never really an option for him.  Who wants to bet that if Spike had walked away from her in "Smashed" before the fight that Buffy would have gone after him?  The problem, it seems, is that it always has to be on her terms on who leaves and who stays and when...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Dec 28 2008 06:10 am   #28nmcil

We can also add their conversation from "Hells Bells" - where again she gives off contrasting signals to him -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Dec 28 2008 06:22 pm   #29Spikez_tart
she gives off contrasting signals to him  - I guess Buffy herself doesn't know what she wants, except for sex with Spike, which who wouldn't. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Dec 29 2008 04:12 am   #30nmcil
I have to say that I really disliked her whole "exit into the light" treatment the writers gave us - with all the sex and horrible conduct on her part and all the dreadful darkness that she took both of them - it felt really like a great big let down.  I know all the metaphors and can appreciate how everything fits together from that perspective - and it's a grand mythic story - but I sure had a difficult time not disliking her very much at this point of the series. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.