I was watching Lover's Walk, and a light bulb went off over my head. After Spike getting the chip and coming to the Scoobies for help, Buffy treated him like an information whore. She'd show up at his crypt, punch him in the nose, get what she came for then pay him. After returning from heaven she moved from the info. to the whole sex thing. And still treated him like a dirty whore. :boohoo: Or maybe I read way to far itno the lines,lol.

why did this lightbulb go off when you were watching "Lover's Walk?"

Because when I watch old Buffy (like seasons 1 and 2) my mind wonders. So really, I don't get to watch the whole eppie without wondering off to other thoughts,lol.  So thats why the bulb went off then.

High school Buffy was still pretty fair. She graduates, and all of a sudden, it's all-bitch Buffy, all the time. What was with that?

CM

 "High school Buffy was still pretty fair. She graduates, and all of a sudden, it's all-bitch Buffy, all the time. What was with that?"

I blame Angel......and the Scoobies for their interventions.......and Giles for doing the Council's little test....and Buffy for not pulling her head out of her ass.....but mostley I blame Angel. ;)

I've always been about to identify with Buffy enough to understand her motivations (well, except for not recognizing what a good thing she had in Spike...lol) and I think watching her develop and change is one of the more enjoyable parts of the show.  She grows up, and the events in her life contribute to how she grows.  She learns that things aren't always black and white (takes her, maybe, a bit longer than it should, but she does learn); and she has to deal with a lot of heartbreak at a fairly young age. Not that much is made (on the show) of her parent's divorce and her part in it, but it is referrenced, so she starts out a tiny bit damaged by feeling as though her being "chosen"has broken up her family.

Then she falls in love with a hot, older guy who turns out to be one of the creatures she is supposed to slay - but, apparently, his having a soul makes him a good guy, so that gets cemented into her developing world view.  She has sex with him and turns him into a monster, kills him, finds him again, and loses him again  - all her "fault".  I think that whole thing really set her up to the importance of closing off her softer emotions.

She meets another slayer who is on the road to destruction and almost kills her too.  Gets a nice, normal, human boyfriend and drives him away.  Gets a sister and suddenly has to share her mom.  Said sister turns out to be a job-related responsibily; Mom dies; Buffy dies but isn't allowed to stay dead; and on and on. The longer she goes on, the more reasons she has to try to protect her heart.  The people she loves either leave her or hurt her in some way - putting walls around her heart undoubtedly seems the best way to go.  And those walls would have to be the highest and thickest between her and another vampire.  If Angel taught her nothing, it was that loving a vampire leads to bad things and pain.  Poor Spike had to pay for that throughout the seasons, at least until he got his soul for her.  Then her world view was shaken and she had to rethink some of her basic tenets.

In spite of her looks and accomplishments, Buffy is basically a young woman with a whole lot of baggage - self-esteem issues, abandonment issues, blah, blah.  I hate that she becomes such a bitch (especially towards Spike), but it is easy to understand.  She needs to keep some emotional distance between herself and everyone else just to survive the inevitable disappointments they are going to provide. And everything that Angel has taught her would lead her to believe that softening her attitude towards Spike would be putting everyone at risk.

By season VII, she can still be a bitch when she needs to, but she has learned to pick and choose when it's needed. She keeps an emotional distance from the potentials, I think, as a way of protecting herself from the pain of losing them.  She has grown up enough to make her own decisions about whom she can trust, whom she can depend on and she's willing to stand up to Giles and her friends.

I have no idea if this was coherent or not. LOL

Finally! *hugs Patti* Someone who agrees with me! I had this argument before with either Zoe or Thianna or someone where I said the same things! *cries with happiness that she's not the only Buffy sympathizer out there* LoL

I get where you're coming from, and I understand that. Buffy has baggage, I don't disagree, but she needed to learn how to control it sooner than she did. Everyone has issues, and for her being a slayer she should have been stronger, able to deal with things better than the mere human. Really, I might sound cold, but blah blah blah, my parents divorced, her being called didn't do it. Hank was an ass and their divorcing was going to happen if Buffy was the slayer or not.

Boo hoo hoo, Angel lost his soul, and then I had to kill him, but then he came back but left me. Seriously, get the hell over it. Angel's soul was a curse, and him losing it was JENNY's fault not Buffy's. The bitch should have opened her mouth soon as she seen how close they had become. Hello, hormonal teenager and a honry vamp, sex was going to happen. She should have killed him soon as he lost his soul then there would have been less damage not only for her but everyone in whole.

Angel leaving, again wasn't her fault he was a jerk and if he couldn't have Buffy on his turms he left. I know everyone knows this, but it just erks me to make excuses for her and her treatment of everyone around her. If Buffy had grown a back bone and some balls when she was still in H.S. then none of this crap would have ever happened. I don't care what kind of bitch she turned into it doesn't make it alright to become an abuser to Spike because he just happened to be a vampire.

Ok, I'm pms-ing here, which is really unmixy with the soap box. I think I'm looking like a bitch myself, or look a bit crazy, lol. Which I don't want to. But yes I agree Buffy went through a lot at a young age. But so does have the population in the world, and many didn't turn out to be abusers with low self worth and bitches.

Other than her issues, I love Buffy. (can't you tell?)

Buffy *does* have a lot of baggage, and her bitchiness is an understandable coping mechanism.  The one place where I think she really fails is when she refuses to hear what the Spirit Guide says to her in Intervention.  She walks away with "death is my gift", but she was also told that to come to her gift she had to learn to "love, give, forgive".  She has to not let her fear of pain rob her of the huge love that is inside of her.  But she doesn't hear it and goes into major shut-down, one that she's only beginning to come out of by the end of the series.  It is Spike who is willing to risk the pain of love (!!), and Buffy's growth, such as it is, is in large measure due to the fact that whether she likes it or not, her journey is bound to his from Intervention on.  The very episode where she is refusing to hear about the need to love through pain, Spike is being tortured by Glory for love... which is why I see that episode as the one where he takes over, in some sense, the burden of the hero's journey, and their fates are henceforth entwined.

Maggie

I think a majority of the reason Buffy blames herself for pretty much everything has to do with the people around her... 

1 - ALL children blame themselves when their parents get divorced, Buffy being called at the same time... was a coincidence... but in her adolescent mind they were linked. 

2 - Angel loosing his soul. 

a) HE thanked her the morning after, along with taunting her about her "skills" in bed.  Even after being recursed, he still made out like it was HER fault, never his.

b) Xander's continual "if you hadnt given him the happy" garbage.

c) Giles telling her she was irresponsible after Angel lost his soul.

 3 - Angel leaving.  He broke up with her cause they couldnt have sex, citing the "happiness clause" re-inforcing the whole "its your fault I lost it"

 I could go on citing points and whatnot but... I wont

Suffice it to say, her family and friends did their utmost to ensure that Buffy always blamed herself everytime something went wrong.  Constantly questioning her judgement, always telling her what to do, treating her like she was nothing without their approval.

 Yeah, Buffy needed to grow up and grab life by the balls.  But her so-called friends and family needed to LET her.  And they needed toquit blaming her everytime something went wrong.

*ends rant*

i can GET why Buffy behaves the way she does, but she's still a bitch.  I mean come on...not all people decide to behave in this way just because of bad stuff happening to them.  And certainly the way she treated Spike is unacceptable.  

I don't believe she is allowed to hide behind her traumatic life as an excuse for her bad behavior.  The fact of the matter is, she always chose to shut people out, and she chose to let her friends walk over her, she chose time after time how she would react in situations.  I don't "hate" Buffy, but I don't think she gets a get-out-of-jail-free card just because bad stuff happened to her or because she's the poor tortured slayer.

She is also partly responsible for a lot of it.  She has to take responsibility for her choices and their consequences.

And EAS I'm pretty sure it was you and me lol.  Cause you were all like "why do you write Buffy if you don't like Buffy." I LIKE her, but not always.  I didn't like season six Buffy at all.

She wasn't very likable that season.  Sometimes Buffy was very hard to like.  

And shadow I absolutely agree.  No one makes it through life's crap all by themselves.  And With Buffy's "support circle" who really needed enemies?  If Buffy was a sometimes selfish character, it was largely in part because she was surrounded by other selfish people who used her to make their lives seem more important and exciting than they otherwise would have been. 

You're right, but they did that because she LET them.

You know, when my parents divorced when I was 5, I asked my mom if it was because of me. She explained that it wasn't and why, and that was it. If I could understand that at a young age, then Buffy should have had the common sense to know it at 15. A marriage is between the man and wife - they're the ones that make the choices. I had no problem understanding that my father was a jerk, and always would be one. He proved it, and so did Buffy's dad.

I didn't see Buffy growing up so much as just hardening. She took on her Slayer decisions, but every human decision got pushed away for denial, etc. She didn't expand her world view - Spike just entered hers. He got the free pass all of a sudden with that soul, just like Angel did. She never said how it was amazing that a demon decided to get a soul. Still let her friends, who were complete disasters, tell her what to do. She even let her little sister, a minor, kick her out of the house that Buffy owned. She should have told the rest to leave. She was the only one with the right to make that decision.

The whole Scooby gang never really grew as people. They just got older. I have loads more respect for the characters on Angel because of it.

Absolutely! on the stuff about her and her house.  HER NAME WAS ON THE MORTGAGE.  Not Dawn's not Giles' not the bazillion potentials with a sense of entitlement sleeping on her floor and eating her food.  It was stuff like that that made me feel Buffy never really Grew up.

She just exchanged one form of immaturity for another.

That was me. Forgot to sign in again.

Zoe, we pretty much said the same thing at the same time. I agree wholeheartedly.

hehe CM.  I was wondering who "guest" was. ;)

*nods* Zoe and CM said much of what I was thinking also. I just wanted to add, if Buffy was going to judge all vamps by Angel's standers then she should have used that same view on humans. I mean, hello, Xander tried to rape her. Giles knew, bu tnever bothered to tell her. That's two men whom she held dear to her heart crossing her. Her best friend Ford tried to sell her out to Spike so he could become a vampire. Parker was just an ass.

Yeah, that denial of human badness was really pathetic after a while. She was too old to keep sticking to that view.

CM

Okay, just gotta stick my two cents worth in here....

Buffy went through a lot of tough stuff in the show...like a *lot* of tough stuff...I get that, and sympathize with her in that...

But what do you learn from like, the first day of kindergarten, people?

*Use. Your. *Words*.*

It is completely unacceptable, no matter what you're feeling, to express that by hitting or hurting other people (unless they want you to hehe :P). Buffy had a lot of hurt and anger, rightfully so -- but she always seemed to feel as if that gave her the right to act hateful to people, especially Spike. As if it excused her behavior.

I see it about the same way i see the argument of the domestic abuser or sexual criminal who claims "I couldn't help it, I was abused as a child, blah, blah, blah..."

What happens to you during your life, the traumas you go through, etc., may serve to *explain* your bad behavior, but it does not always serve to *excuse* it. I can get why Buffy behaved the way she did, and can see that it was a very bad emotional response to her own hurts.

Does that make it okay? No.

I can sympathize with Buffy, definitely...but I still think she was unnecessarily cold and mean, in seasons 5 and 6...and yeah, even in 7...

And oh...the comment someone made about why write buffy if you don't like her? there were a lot of times i didn't like her throughout the show - but she's still fun to write! :) In fact, sometimes I make her worse than she was in the show...because "bad" characters can be the most fun to write! Why do you think we all love Spike so much? :) LOL

Anyways...there's my two cents :)

hehe.  I wouldn't characterize buffy as a villain exactly, but villains are very fun to write.  my bad guy in the novel was the most fun.  I loved him.  He was evil but so funny about it too.

And while we are talking about Buffy, don't forget that Spike has a lot of issues too - his human life was something he'd rather forget, and life with Angelus couldn't have been much better, until Angelus just disappears out of his life for 100 years.  he he is abandandoned by the woman he has adored for a century, and physically rendered helpless.  He  just handles it better.  Then again, he is A LOT older than Buffy. LOL

And yes, evil, annoying, or characters that you just don't much like can be lots of fun to write.

I have a feeling William handled things better as they came, though, too. But then again, he was also older than Buffy as a human, for all his innocence. His inner character had been established past adolescence. One thing's for sure, neither William or Spike ever shied away from feeling. His whole existence was about feeling.

CM

*nods* and I just get that during Victorian times children were more mature anyway. So even if Spike had been turned around Buffy's age (19-20) he would have been in a more stable place mentally. And the emotions, we all know he never had a problem with those. Though I will say him running off into the night crying and then letting a strange woman get close to him like that was a BAD move,lol. But I've always wondered did Dru have him under thrall?

Yes, Spike had baggage as well, but for a vamp he doesn't act out on it. Yeah he was depressed but he faced up to it, even after he got his soul and was all soulfull Spike, after Buffy told him she missed old Spike who was all grrr, what did he d? He faced what was bothering him, came to grips with it and moved on, becoming the Spike he always was. Buffy could  learn alot from him. I only hope that with this Season 8 comic that Joss is doing, Buffy fibally does grow up and learns. It's time, and she makes the mistaked between she and Spike right.

Can't agree that Spike was at all mature, GBuffy. 

He has tantrums, manipulates people, continues his vendetta against Buffy and the others long after he gets the chip, tries to get the chip out so he can go back to his evil ways, steals money, cheats at cards, sulks and plays with dolls.  Even after he decides he's madly in love with Buffy - he runs to see her fight off some demon pack and hopes she'll get killed so he'll be free of her (episode where Tara makes demons invisible).  He ends up taking on one of the demons to help her, but she can't see him - how fitting. 

I might also add that Spike has never had a successful romantic relationship.  As William, he chases after the unworthy Cecily.  Drusilla keeps him around as a pet because Angel has disappeared and so she'll have someone to take care or her.  He hates Harmony for being so stupid and he chains up Buffy to get her attention.  Mature - don't think so.

That's my rant and I'm sticking to it.

I do believe Spike's character is alot stronger the Buffy's, if you look at all the things he went trough.  Especially his last evil years in sunnydale, to make the champion,hero, warrior of light.  They had to totally strip him down, his sense of identity was taken, the person who he had been for over a 100y.  After some moments of despair, he start unknowingly on his journey.  He often stumbles,fails but did make it trough in the end.

The problems i had with Buffy were mainly her self-martyrdom routine and her friends.  My biggest regret is that angel never got his come upons for all the damage that he had done.  And continues to be seen as infallible and a "true" champion.LOL

I had that problem with Buffy too!  Her "I wanna be a normal girl " bit really made me mad.  You're the Slayer!  Get over yourself.  So, what, you force unsuspecting girls the world over to be Slayers?  You didn't like it when it was forced on you.  What do you think they're going to do...?

As for Angel...a true hero does not go around calling himself one.  He just * is* one.

lool, but spikez tart thats just typical male behaviour. he's like what? 125, which equals to 25 for 

a human male but his real age is sumbed around 15,lol. 

 As for Angel...a true hero does not go around calling himself one.  He just * is* one

true, and spike never did that. he just fought the good fight. i did like how he pointed out the he fought for his soul and angel was cursed with his. shows you who was better. angel didn't want to help until he saw little buffy sucking a lolly pop in a short skirt. hmmm, seems he was thinking with his head alright.

Yeah, I hope Joss explores that Slayer spell biting them in the ass in the new comics, for that never should have been done to so many unsuspecting girls. The ones in Sunnydale, who knew what it was about - fine, totally cool with that. But all those others....especially Dana! It was Buffy's cop-out. It was her way not to have to do all the work anymore, but not have to give her life to do it. That spell *has* to have serious consequences - like on the universal balance, for one.

 "I had that problem with Buffy too!  Her "I wanna be a normal girl " bit really made me mad."

Indeed, in the beginning i had thought it was just her naive nature, but post-angel it seemed like she just took over angel's(false) reasons.  Which the real one was that they couldn't shag, but he made it out to be because he's a vamp and she deserves a normal life, getting married,having kids,ect.  What??

After that she seemed to become really fixated on trying to get that normal life, Parker,Riley.

The slayer-spell is a big issue, Joss wanted to give a message of female empowerment but that's not what i saw.  I saw a superior race being born, those that don't deserve,want, have a right to that power. Dana was just a small example i think, what about those little girls that aren't mature enough to handle it.  Those girls that have had a hard,grueling life and want payback,revenge.  And only 500 are active as slayers, 1300 are just people with dangerous powers.  What if they are used,controlled. 

We saw great examples of this with Faith, who had had a hard life, and was very easily swayed over by The Mayor.  I would also consider Kendra a puppet, she was the perfect slayer for the watchers.  The problem is that slayers don't have their origin in light, their powers are demonic.  Nor is the essence of a slayer peacefull and the protector of mankind, we saw with Dana that she very easily killed humans with no problem,regrets.  Almost as easy as a vamp, i mean she walked in a supermarket, took what she wanted, and killed a few humans.  It seems that just like with vamps, the human-side is the deciding factor on what kind of vamp,slayer you will become. 

That's where Spike and Buffy are very much alike in their evolution, both have always been rebellious and have grown to be the greatest warriors,fighters in their race.

"lool, but spikez tart thats just typical male behaviour. he's like what? 125, which equals to 25 for a human male but his real age is sumbed around 15,lol." 

As a male, i take offense to that statement, hehe.   No, but seriously, what do you except from a guy that in over a 100y has taken everything that he wanted with ease.  Spike even said so in "Damage" that he never really thought about all the bad things he had done, he loved the chaos,crunch,ect.  So Robin was right in that respect, for a 100y Spike had breezed trough his unlife.  I would think that it would be very hard, almost impossible to change like he did, which makes his journey more amazing. 

Dihcar - we could say that it's typical immature male behavior, I think. 

I really hated the whole Slayer empowerment thing in S7.  It was just so cheesy and then there was Kennedy.  Ick.  Also the pompous General Buffy speeches.  Altogether unbearable.

I gave Buffy some slack because she didn't know how to be an army leader, but Kennedy, I seriously wanted to do away with. I liked Amanda, though, and she was the only Potential that didn't challenge and whine all the time. Of course, Joss had to kill her at the end. :(   Vi could be funny sometimes, like when she eeeped during the pretend fight with Spike.

CM

I never thought of that the whole slayer spell. yes, that s dangerous, i wonder if joss even thought of that? wonders if it will be addressed in the comic?

I stand by my ealier commit, Spike's a verly long lived teenager, lol. He finally started to mature in S7 and in S5 AtS, imho that is. But he will always be Spike no matter what.