On the other hand, what makes you abandon reading a story?

the word "sweetling". I HATE it. No-one says that. Ever. Not in England anyway. If i really like the fic, I have to train myself to change it to sweet*heart*. grr. 

I want to recognize the characters.  That is one of the biggest things for me.

Anyone who's reading Borrowed Time know I'm a bigger Xander fan than is usual for the BSV, and I am not looking to start a wider debate.  I'm just using this as an example, because this happens with other characters too. I know many authors don't like him.  I get that there are stories in which the bashing is done in a creative or interesting way.  And then there are stories where, dude, that's just not Xander, no matter how angry you are at the character.  That takes me out of a story fast.   I also recognize that I'm not the intended audience for that story :)

Any story told well, I like.  The most important thing to me is that the writing style flows.  If I don't skim down to get to Spuffy dialogue...I know it's a good story.  If I'm reading the parts that don't have any spike in it at all, I know it's a great story. (i.e. subplots not related to the romance.)

If the writer can make me cry, laugh, at the right times, I love that.  The emotional response is really the most important thing I think.  That makes the story "true."  If I cry or laugh, I'm there. 

I can accept a lot of plot choices and be OK with it.  I know some people don't like character bashing and think it's inauthentic, and I know sometimes it does go overboard and sometimes it's hard to know when that line is crossed.

However, despite that, I can easily see, Giles, Xander, Angel, or Riley (the most common bashing characters) becoming the villain of a piece especially in a Spuffy situation.  I can also see them becoming REALLY villainous, to the point where most people consider it "just bashing."  But think...who really thought Willow was going to one day destroy the world back in season one?

I believe that certain character flaws, capitalized on by a certain series of events, can bring forth almost any reaction.  Who thought Buffy would be  like she was in season six, all the way back in the lollipop sucking days of season one?

All of the commonly bashed characters have darkness in them and the potential to go REALLY dark.  And ironically I think, and it's probably why I personally have leaned towards it in some of my writing, that Riley can be VERY dark.  I believe Riley can be so dark for many reasons including the ease with which he's led for a "cause" (like the initiative), the vamp ho's, and the plastic wood grain stake.  The man has darkness.  With the right series of events, he could compete easily with Evil Willow or Ripper or Angelus.  So it really really depends on the story itself and the set up as to whether I'm going to consider it just bashing for the sake of bashing or a believable villain. (But then I could be justifying my own writing...I tend to stick with Villains we know, rather than creating villains outside of canon.  I mean my god, look at all the flaws in the main characters, you can easily exploit one and have a villain without outside forces of darkness.  Often the scoobies are all their own worst enemies.  It's amazing they ever have time to fight outside evil.  Not saying that non-canon villains are bad.)

Things I don't like...I HATE "sweetling" and "cor"  HATE them...I wish they'd never become fanon, and I beg those writers not already using them to resist the urge to do it cause others are.  I won't stop reading, but I'll skim over it.

I'm not a fan of overly described sex scenes.  Not because I'm a prude or something, anyone who knows me knows I'm a bit of an 'Anya' , but because I feel like overly described sex isnt' that sexy. (for me personally) I find the "power dynamic" as well as various situations and sometimes certain dialogue sexy.  

But that won't make me stop reading a fic, I usually just skim through smut, unless it's really well written and emotionally evocative.  Some sex is just wonderfully written.  

There are three things that will make me stop reading a fic.

1.  All human AU (cause really...what's the point?)

2. Really bad writing that doesn't sound ANYTHING like any of the characters.

3. Happyverse fic.  I like happyverse if it's a one shot.  Nothing wrong with the ocassional fluff.  I'm talking about a story that goes for chapters and chapters without end of happy wonderfulness with barely any obstacles at all.  Where everything is just "too easy." I'm not saying it has to be a total angst-fest, but I need tension.  The characters have to earn their happily ever after (if there is one.)

Sorry that was long.

From Coquine

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if it's poorly written, regardless of how good the plot may be, I just can't make myself read it.  I think we all know what I'm talking about.  You see the title of a fic or are intrigued by the summary, you start in on the first chapter and just go...ugh!  Boo.  That sucks.  I've never been one to 'flame' anyone, but if it's a crap story, I just don't read it. 

On the other hand, once I've started reading a story and have become invested in it, there's not much that will make me stop reading it, even if things happen that I don't like.  I'll see it though to the end, but I'll possibly be bitter about it for making me continue to read something I no longer like.  But I think that may be a weird "me" thing.

Things that annoy me in general, in no particular order, are:

1.  The villainization (it's a new word, okay?) of Xander/Giles/Angel just because they're there and easy to use as conflict.  I actually like all of these guys as characters, and when an author uses them just to make a bad guy to come between Buffy and Spike, especially when they throw them wildly out of character and make them hateful or violent, it just makes me roll my eyes and wish they could have done something more original.

2.  Buffy and/or Spike being too lovey-dovey.  It's just not right.  I'm cool with a little fluffiness here and there, but I've seen it taken too far too many times and I can no longer suspend my disbelief.

3.  Conversely, Buffy and/or Spike being atrocious to each other.  I mean, yes, Buffy can be extremely bitchy and Spike is usually evil, but again, there's a fine line before it's taken too far.

4.  Out-of-characterness in general.

5.  Poorly written smut.  Smut isn't easy, and if you're not sure of yourself, keep it vague.  I'd rather a story be good with no smut than have the smut ruin the story.  Oh, and medical names for body parts.  "He inserted his penis in her vagina."  Such a turn-off.  If you're too embarrassed to write cock, dick, pussy, cunt, etc, you probably shouldn't be writing explicit smut.

I think that covers most of it.  You may have noticed that a story being a WIP wasn't on my list, and that's because I have read too many amazing stories that have never and probably will never be finished.  It may make me sad that I'll never see how it ends, but I'm still grateful that the story exists.  Plus it would make me a big old hypocrite considering the only stories I've ever finished have been one-shots.

I like a story that has a new twist or adds something new to fanon.  Admittedly, that's hard to tell until after you've read the whole thing! 

That being said, there's nothing wrong with a story that re-hashes an old theme or episode. especially if it is done well.  I have a fondness for Something Blue fics.  But I HATE when writers quote too much dialogue, or re-write whole scenes from the show.  A little goes a long way.  I mean, we've all seen it, so unless the writer is using a different point of view or something, why bother?  It's just tedious to read. 

Other pet peeves are grammar and homophones.  It must be the teacher in me, but I get really turned off by writers who consistently confuse their, there and they're.  Drives me up a freaking tree. 

I also have to admit that I sometimes lose interest in a fic near the end, when it becomes completely predicatable and even the writer is just going through the motions to put an end on it.  When I write, I try to always save some element of surprise for the very end or the epilogue.  Of course, then some people drop out before the big revelation (sigh).

I also agree with the above, that out of characterness is a major turn off, and yes, there has to be some conflict or problem to be resolved, or else it's not much of a story. Almost all of the characters in the Buffyverse are mutlidimensional, so it is easy to write them lots of different ways depending on the circumstances.

Like Zoegrace, I started out despising all human fics, but have found some that are really great.  What is interesting to me is how to make the characters human, yet still portray Buffy and Spike.  But I guess a lot of people here are purists.

It's not so much that I'm a purist as that I really like vampires lol.  Vampire stories tend to lend themselves more into a D/s subtext, which isn't all I'm into, but I tend to be drawn to that.  It's one of those situations where with a vampire it's never going to be totally 'vanilla' so I can get interested in it.

  Outside of Spuffy, if I want to read romance, I generally go for vampire romances even then.  I like fantasy and get easily bored by fiction that doesn't include things that really can't happen. (CIA conspiracy stories aside)

I'm one of those people who would never dream of sitting and reading about something I could just go out and do. (in theory)  Which is why I'm drawn to fantasy in the first place including vampires, cause it's not real and the only way it's happening is on the page.

I also hate too much dialogue quoting.  Just little snippets when necessary are all we need.  We've all seen it, probably multiple times.  Many of us are writing stories based off of it...We know Buffy like Preachers know the bible...seriously...we aren't lost. lol.

What do I think makes a good story? Great characterization and a good plot. I like original ideas and old themes done well. I read a lot of fanfic in many different fandoms and what keeps me returning to certain authors is their ability to write a story that I could see being apart of the TV series or book series that I'm reading about.

What makes me stop reading a story(besides a lot of the points already made here) are:

1. Marysue/Garystue: Whether they are original characters or our beloved characters it does not matter. If suddenly Xander somehow has this secret destiny greater than Buffy's and he saves the world, I'll stop reading. The author has turned him into a garystue. Make it believable. I am not against original characters by any means( one of my stories here has a ton of them and there will be more to come), but if they are some how miraculously the ones to save the day, it bugs me.

2. Excessive Smut/Violence: If a good story has a lot of violence or smut, I'll skim through it. But if that is all the story is and you have to go through chapters of violence, torture, rape, smut, ect and it has very little plot, I'll quite reading. There has to be a reason than the author just felt like it. If I want a porn without plot, I'll read one. I'm not against them, but if it's a long story I want there to be a plausible reason for it to be there.

3. Badly done Crossovers: I am a crossover junkie. Nothing makes me happier than reading a story where Buffy and crew meet the characters from my favorite shows and books. If they are done well, they are the best things in the world. If they are done badly, they haunt you for years. I still remember reading a crossover with Buffy and the Vampire Chronicles.

I am obsessed with these books the way a lot of us are obsessed with Spike. It was awful. Willow somehow got the destiny to save the day and what I really remember was her staking Lestat and him crumbling to dust. That would never happen. Not only is it impossible with that group of vampires but Lestat would have torn them to pieces. Slayer strength or not.

4. Mysterious relations(also in the bad crossover category): Somehow Buffy is adopted and her real family is so and so and she goes off to save the day. This also goes had in had with my first point. If someone writes Buffy and say Smallville. She is not miraculously related to Clark Kent, the Kent's long lost daughter or able to beat him in a fight. He's Superman and unless she had a shiny green rock that butt kicking is just not going to happen.

I think you can see my point. =) Basically if a story is good, I'll read and reread it many times. If a stories is bad, I'll try my hardest to erase it from my memory.

LadyYashka(Tonia)

Everyone has said all the important things here. (go Zoe, Coquine, Cas)  It's interesting to see the various personal differences though.  I think it's hard to say "I'd never read...blah, blah, blah" because the minute I say that, I'll think of a fic like that that I read and enjoyed.

My idea of a good fic? The characters are real to me, the dialogue is snappy but appropriate to the character and situation, the plot is imaginative and believable, the relationships make sense, there is a mixture of angst and humor and the story is well-written.

What kicks me out of a fic? Too fluffy (gag), too smutty (no feeling behind the smut and therefore waaaay OOC) and, before anyone gets all huffy about pwp fics - I'm not saying you need an elaborate plot, but you do need some logical reason for what's happening between the characters. Where was I? Oh yeah - poor or missing punctuation, bad grammar, spelling mistakes - that was a given from me, wasn't it? LOL  Poor, boring, too cutesy, juvenile writing. Can't handle it and don't want to be bothered. Not a big fan of any of the following (although, I have read and enjoyed fics in each and every one of these categories): baby fics, all-human, excessive torture/violence, vamp Buffy, crossovers (with other shows/movies).  Nothing wrong with any of them, I guess, if that's your poison, but I am only interested in the characters that we met on the show and what they are and the experiences they've had are the most important things about them.  Change those, and you change everything. 

I came to BtVS from an interest in vampires. I'm a reader of science fiction, fantasy, horror genres, so when you take those elements out of a fic, I lose all interest.  I love the relationship between Buffy and Spike - and I love to see them presented well and to get their happy ending - but I'm not interested in reading a romance novel about two people whose names just happen to be Spike and Buffy. Just not my cup of tea.  

If a story hasn't captured me within the first chapter or two, I'm gone. And if the first few pages are poorly written - I won't bother to finish the chapter.  Sometimes I bail on fic before it's finished because I've lost interest, the plot has wandered, it's going on too long or the promise the earlier chapters seemed to hold just hasn't materialized.

hehe yeah i'm usually not a big fan of baby fics or vamp buffy, although vamp buffy is growing on me (when she keeps her soul), and I actually did one of those.  Also I think I may at some point write a baby fic lmao.  Which I never would have thought...but...come on...Spike as a daddy? hehe.  OK shutting up now. :)

And yeah I hate too fluffy or too smutty.  I feel like if sex happens in a story there has to be a story specific reason and there has to be some feeling there.  Recounting every sexual encounter without anything being shown by it, is like telling me every single meal you had today.  

I'm also not a fan of when Buffy and Spike get into bed too soon AND are a couple unless there is a really strong plot otherwise driving it.  When they hop into bed too soon, it kills the sexual tension, unless we are talking about a season six or similar type fic...which is extenuating circumstances.  I guess I'm talking about overly smutty fluffy fluff.  I need to think there is some possible chance they aren't getting together.

Oh yeah. The UST is almost better than the sex sometimes. :)

I think every one pretty much covered what I would say. Even though I'm currently writing a baby fic, I normally don't go for them unless its good. Oh, and to much smut, look I LOVE smut, I love PWP and some Pw/o P, but it has to be written well and not all like reading directions to putting up a play pin. All human, I like some, not all, and I do like vamp Buffy with or without the soul, again it has to be good. If you don't capture me by chapter 2 I'm outta there. Unless it starts to nag me then I'm come back to read at lest two more chapters, if the story still hasn't turned my mind then I won't read it.

My biggest fear, someone who starts out reading my fic then thinks it sucks and hates it, ROFL. But I'm sure everyone feels like that at time regarding their own writing. Or am I alone. *looks aroud the room*

Oh, no.  Definitely not alone there.  It's why I have so many WIPs and a bunch of stories on disk that have never seen the light of day.  Sheer terror!

Coquine

GoldenBuffy, the truth is...some people will read your fic and either hate a choice you made and stop reading or just lose interest and stop reading.  You can see how many click throughs you get on each page, and the numbers usually go down at least a tiny bit.  This isn't YOU.  It's everybody.  Cause you can't please everybody.

Even from just this thread it's clear we all like diff things.  I wouldn't touch an all human AU with a ten foot pole and as cliche as it is...i really prefer bitey/claimy fics to anything else (like to me the biting is part of the sex thing...cause hello? vampire lol.)  Other people have totally different preferences.   Things I hate others like and vise versa.

Hell, I can justify my Riley bashing and give a zillion reasons why it's justifiable and OK and not out of some hatred for the character...there will be plenty of people who will stop reading the second it looks like I'm bashing a character.  On the other hand, there are fanfic readers that LOVE bashing fics, they go out of their way to find them and they don't care if the author can justify the bashing or not.

I've been incredibly amused by the fic where they repeat the day over and over and Angel has been dusted like a billion times...freaking hilarious!

Anyway...that's my little ramble lol.

And Coquine, you should post your WIPs and other stories.  Try the things you're scared of.  No matter what it is, I'm sure you'll find an audience for it that likes it! :)

Also, if you're scared to post it...to me that means you have something worth saying.  There's a difference in not posting something cause you KNOW it's not ready and not posting it just out of fear.  I for one am interested in reading what you're scared to post.

OMG, I totally love that fic. When Giles is all like "Good night Angel." then he dusts him, LMAO!!!!!

I totally see were your coming from, and yeah, ppl will not like something I or others will type and stop reading because of that. I can't hold a gun to their head and make them read, but sometimes the stop readage stings. *grins* But hey, you have others who or totally into what you're sharing with them and they let you know. I just hate those who flame. And that one thing I hate. If I don't like a fic I will thank the author for sharing it, but I could and would never flame them. I think it wrong to do, and in public were everyone can read too! Boo on those who do it, it's plan wrong.

And another thing I dislike, ships that could NEVER work and are just plan gross, ugh!

Yeah it does suck when some people stop reading...I'll be thinking "geez, you made it through chapter five with me...come on...have a little faith" of course theoretically they could have been skimming all those chapters waiting for it to get better and it never does...but if someone likes it and then doesn't like one thing I do...it's annoying because there really is a point to all these plot choices.  REALLY and truly it will eventually make sense.  Anyway...heh.

I know! I had this one reader who got mad since I didn't make Joyce all ga ga over the idea of Buffy and Spike at first, so they were all like "I'm not reading this fic any more, blah blah blah." I was like "fine be that way." lol. If they had waited for the next chapter all would have been answered. Oh well.

LMAO!!!  Well I had someone who didn't like that Joyce liked Spike so soon, although I DID tone it down a bit later in response to that review and set it up a little better lol. 

Can't please everyone.  But I have to admit that I have stopped reading a fic just because I can't remember what it was.  If the plot or the name is not memorable, I can start it and then just forget it or not be able to find it again even though I liked it.  Also, I sometimes give up on longer fics if I've missed a few chapters and don't know where I left off.  It's annoying to go thru and try to find you spot - that's why esp. on longer fics I try to put a chatper summary.  But maybe its just me and my muddled brain that can't keep these things straight.

heh...i mark stories i really like as favorites...then I reread the last chapter to remind myself where I'm at.  Usually when the fic is finished I'll reread it all together to get the full effect of the story altogether.

I love long stories. In fact, the longer the better. There's one author I like whose chapters take me a few hours to read.(she writes in the Highlander fandmon) If the story is well thought out, complex and attention grabbing, I'm very happy. I hope I can succeed in doing that with my stories. =)

To the comments about people who stop reading because of the plot.

Zoe, you say if they had stuck with you they would have learned in future chapters why you did this or that, and that in the end everything made sense. I don't think it works that way. Most of the time their leaving isn't really about plot, but characterization. At least in the examples you gave. Once characters reaction to something or someone is based on how you write that character. So if the way you have them behave is OOC to a reader, it's completely understandable if they stop reading your story. Of course if later they would have found out that character was under a spell, that'd kinda suck. But in a fandom where so many writers don't even TRY to keep their stories in charater, I think you can only avoid that kind of confusion if you give your readers a hint if someone's OOC behavior will later be explained as being due to outside influence.

I don't think you can say ANY reason people have for stopping to read something is silly. It just seems like that to you/us cos your priorities are different. On the other hand those "former" readers could really be a bit nicer about letting the author know why they stopped reading. Or stop using that line the way they do. It's like it is a stick they like to poke you with. They think the characters are OOC? Fine, they can tell you and maybe you'll even do something about it. And if they want to stop reading? The can do that too, but please without the nasty little comments.

I like critical reviews (I actually like them better then the completely useless "Like it, more." Those they can just keep as far as I'm concerned.) but sticking out ones tounge and saying "Bahhh, I'm gonna stop reading this now." is kinda childish, don't you think? LOL

I absolutely cannot stand when a writer uses a word out of context or incorrectly -- it means they really don't know the meaning of the word or its proper usage.  It drives me absolutely batty -- and there are quite a few award-winning authors who use words that way.  Makes me grit my teeth.  If you don't know what a word means or its proper usage -- don't use it.  Instead of making you look smart you look like a fool.  (And just in case anyone miscontrues that, I mean the general *you* -- I'm not pointing any fingers). 

Another thing is characterization -- if the characters are too OOC then I'm dropping the fic, unless the progression is logical.

Same with unconventional ships.  If it's a logical progression, I'll buy it.  But if the writer hasn't laid the groundwork, then it's going to bump me from the fic.  I'd like to think I laid the groundwork for the unconventional ships I'm writing, but I'm never really sure.

Re: Dia and Niamh  -  What they said! :)

Dia I reread all my posts in this thread just to make sure, but I never said nor implied that anyone was being silly by not reading all of a story.  I never once bashed readers at all in any way.  I said different people like different things and not everybody likes the choices you make.  I did say I wished people would stick with me.  If they've been with me for quite a few chapters, then yeah I really wish they would stick with me.  I can't make them do so, but I never said they were being silly for not doing so.

(It's very possible you never meant to imply that I implied that...however the flow of your post made it seem like you did, so I'm responding based on that assumption.)

Also...about OOC vs. Plot choices.  Not all plot choices stem from characterization, sometimes you have something happen that has NOTHING to do with characterization,and I'd use an example, but then I'm getting too much specifically into my own writing and I don't want to be any more narcissistic than I'm sure I appear.  But yeah, most of them are, I agree there. 

However, I am of the camp that believes you can get just about ANY character to do anything, given the proper set up and exploitation of character flaws.  In a fanfic there isn't often the same time to build up that kind of nuance as in a long running television series, but still you try to do your best. 

The example I'm always using is Willow...in season 1 she's all sweet and innocent, in season 6 she's trying to destroy the world.  Some people could view it as OOC but the writers took a simple character flaw, threw in a new power and slowly built to her coming unhinged.  (and while I dont' think THAT was OOC, I do think things that happened on the show in the actual canon reality were OOC, but OOC or not OOC is all a matter of perspective because everybody sees the characters in a different way and interprets their actions in a different way.)

So yes, I'm sure if someone leaves me based on a plot choice, it usually, but not always has to do with characterization.  But I think there are a lot of gray areas with OOC.  And I really think that most writers are writing the characters as they see them.   (Why would they write the characters the way someone else sees them?)  Since debates rage about character motivation and choices on the show and what those choices mean, it's a safe bet to say, all these characters are so very complex that you can take any one of them in many different directions, given the proper setup, without being OOC.  But again, it's a matter of perspective, and my point to GB was simply that, you can take every proper precaution but it doesn't matter WHAT you write, unless you write something so close to the actual show that we might as well just watch the episode in question, SOMEONE will believe you are writing OOC and there is no way to avoid that.  Because you can't please everyone.  

I have received negative reviews previously about plot choices that have nothing at all to do with writing OOC.  But I was trying to keep it general and not talk too very specifically about my own stuff, cause if i keep going: "well in this story I did this...and someone said..." then not only does it seem psychotically defensive (like let it go already), but it's also very narcissistic...look at me everybody...I'm zoe.  

And I agree with you about the stick poking thing...and I like positive reviews...that are specific...I want to know if I pulled off certain things.  "loved it!" isn't overly helpful but at least it's better then them liking it and not telling me at all.  Since we don't get paid to do this...reviews ARE our payment.  Hearing appreciation for the time you take to write means something.   

But I don't mind critical reviews.  I've made lots of changes and adjustments based on critical reviews.  I'll defend my story choices if I disagree with the reviewer, but often I will make changes based on negative reviews.

From Coquine

I'm a little behind on this thread, but I did want to reply to Zoe.  It's not so much I'm afraid people won't like what I read.  Well, that's a lie, I am, but that's never stopped me before, and it's made easier by the fact that the people that have reviewed me have had nothing but positive things to say.  Ironically, it's the fact that people seem to like my fics that scares me, because it never fails that I will get a block or RL will get in the way and I lose my momentum, and my fic will become an eternal WIP.  The tiny, optimistic part of my mind keeps telling me that one day, I will finish all of my WIPs, in order, and continue to write new stories, but then the louder, pessimistic part just snorts and says, "no, you're not.  Don't even bother starting a new story, cause you'll never finish it, and the people who start to read it and like it will be disappointed in the lack of updates and hate you forever."  Okay, that last part was kind of excessive, but that's the crux of the issue.  I'm afraid of disappointing people.  It's a flaw.

As far as issues about plots, and OOCness, reviewers, and all that stuff...well, I guess I'm just pretty laid back about it.  I've never understood people who flame authors, for any reason, because the solution to any problem to me seems very simple.  Don't read it.  Voila.  Problem solved.  Don't bitch about it cause you don't like it, don't tell someone this is 'right' and this is 'wrong,' its FAN. FICTION. people.  Two words that, to me, imply that anyone can do just about anything they damn well please.  *shrugs*  Maybe I'm too simplistic.

From Coquine again.

Dammit.  Should have previewed first.

It's not so much I'm afraid people won't like what I read.  Obviously, I meant "what I write."  Or maybe "what they read."  Bah.  Either way...

From Coquine...again.

And just so nobody thinks I'm contradicting myself from my post way earlier about my list of things that annoy me in general about some fics, those things are just about me, personally.  I would never flame an author for doing any of them, and they may not even make me stop reading a story.  Like I said, not much will make me stop reading.  I really do feel that an author can do anything they want, whether readers like it or not.  Folks just need to chill out about it.  *kicks at stupid persistent soapbox*

Okay.  I really have to go back to work now...

Yeah, guess I was a bit unclear there. There were several posts that when read in order seemed to suggest that many writers are annoyed by those "You did this or that, and cos I don't like it I'll stop reading your fic." reviews. And while I agree that those posts are annoying, the same comments also gave me the impression that it was the stopping as much as the posts that annoyed people.

The only reason I named you was because I was refering to an example you gave. The one about "Joyce wouldn't do that..". Everything else in my post was not meant for you personally. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

Also, in the second part of my post, I agreed that the way many reviewers make their displeasure known is somewhere between nasty and annoying. So it's not like I was admonishing writers for their reaction and forgetting all about the other side of things.

Thing is, the examples I saw didn't exactly go with the arguments used. "If you'd have stuck with me you'd have seen that I was gonna explain everything in the next chapter." is a perfectly reasonable argument if you're talking plot; but the examples I saw were about characterisation, not plot. And you can't explain that away AFTER the fact. (So basically I wanted to point out that clash between arguments and examples, looks like I did everything but. LOL)

In response to something you mentioned in your last post: I agree that you can make a character do almost everything if you build it up properly. Peopel change after all. That's not OOC, because if the character has changed throughout the story, then at THAT point IN character means something different then at the beginning of the fic. - I didn't bother to mention that because to me it's implied in the defination of OOC. I'm pretty sure that's not why people stop reading based on OOC, though. They do that if there was no build-up, or if the build-up wasn't believable. (Or at least it's like that for me.)

And you are all free to like your positive reviews. The fact that I don't care one way or the other as long as the review doesn't go into detail is just a Dia thing. I wasn't in any way implying that anyone should agree with me on that one. I also drink Coke for breakfast instead of Coffee, and I have no intention of making Coffee-drinkers all over the world do the same. ;-)

Straying a little far from the original topic, I find the reviews really helpful - especially the 'bad' ones, because I have found that I was sometimes unsuccessful in communicating my point - and some readers got the exact wrong idea of what I wanted!  That's one of the reasons I post fic - to get feedback so I can grow as a writer.  If readers aren't getting what I intended, then I need to do something to make it more obvious.  Like many others, I then know what I need to go back and edit, or make more painfully clear in the next chapter.  That's why even if a fic is already drafted, I won't post it all at once.  I need to know what the readers are thinking and what they are interested in, and use that to reshape future chapters.

As far as critical reviews, like someone who is helping not flaming, I LOVE thoughs. BSB sent me one *grins* and thanks to her I not only found BSV, but also learned about beta readings, etc. I do like those who say "I like" "can't wait for the next chapter," at least they are telling me they like it. ^_^

I think no matter what, when leaving a review it all comes down to how you type it, and ppl should remember that if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say it at all. Some writer's feelings get hurt but just a few words, and what one says could prevent the writer from ever sharing fics again.

Coquine...I second the "it's fanfiction!" sentiment lol.

Dia,  Thanks for clarifying your points...and no I didn't think you were trying to get me to agree with your views specifically on reviews. heh.  But yeah...i could have used examples to go with my points better...chances are really good I was on about two or three different tangents and didn't close off one point before opening up another one and then it gets confusing for all.  I think I mentioned the Joyce thing separate from the original "rant" but I can see how it looks like it's all carrying over.  I forget not everybody is on the same thought train I am, and not everyone sees when I jump tracks.

As for proper building for character motivation...I totally agree with you there, I think the point of contention among various readers is that it takes different things to make something believable to different people.  Some people need more convincing than others so to speak.  And while I do my best, I'm sure some people will think I'm just bashing a character here, or just writing OOC for some bizarre reason there lol.  eh...anyway...

Good points Cas. Sometimes tiny changes can make a big difference in how a fic comes off to the readers.  And it generally is true that if one person gives you a bit of criticism, that other people are also thinking it as well.  It's rare that a critical review that's the only person that's read it that thinks it. 

GoldenBuffy, 

Someone could flame me to high heaven, I'll either make appropriate edits or defend my position, sometimes a little of both.  But I know some people would stop posting and even if I don't like a choice an author made, I try not to post a review that might discourage them from continuing to share with us.

I have left criticism before, but even when something really pisses me off storywise, I try to be as nice about it as possible and also point out the good things.

Since posting, I've become a somewhat better reviewer.  I know what I like and need in reviews and try to return the favor.

For me the most important thing is that it's a Spuffy fic, above all else and must be well written. I have read a handful of Spike/?'s but as much as I have hated Buffy at times, Spike loves her and he's my guy.

Characterization is also important. Willow must be Willow, good or evil.

Not a fan of crossovers though a like the Highlander crossover, they both use bladed weapons and the immortals live even longer then most vamps.

Like Zoe, I'm didn't read AH till Addie Logan's "A Pirates Life for Me" and "Need". I've now read all her AH's and have added a few more authors like Holly, Anaunthe and PJ's but only these few.

Love Angel and Riley bashing and not because of their involvement with Buffy but because I never liked their characters. Watched AtS because of Wesley and Cordy. Spike crossovered a few times, so I always watched for that.

Lastly the authors. Because I'm new to fanfiction it became a matter of trust in the author and at BSV, I found that trust with great ease. The author's are from really good to absolutely amazing, as are their stories. So that's what makes a good story for me.

Um, I have an unreasoning curiosity about fics that have Latin titles.  OK, that wasn't very helpful.  How about this instead?

Repetition – I've stopped reading stories that started off sounding really interesting, because it felt like I was being hit over the head with some facet of the fic.  (I'm not talking about fics that use repetition as the touchstone of the plot like repeating time, re-explanations of the Ben/Glory connectionl, etc.)  What I do want is a little subtlety in story telling, because a plot that smacks me between the eyes with the same scene/dialog/description over and over just isn't fun to read.

Format – I know this sounds anal, but weird format can really make me nuts.  For example, random line breaks or capitalization and completely centered or right oriented text makes me twitch.

Cop Outs – I hate it when things are too easy.  I want the characters to work for it, whatever 'it' might be.  I don't want them to find and kill the villain right away, fall in and out of love at the drop of a hat, or suddenly figure out the meaning of life.  It's not realistic, so I don't get emotionally invested.

Predictability - If I can figure out the entire path of the plot after the first few chapters, I'm out.  I want to be surprised.

Other things to avoid: anachronisms, lecturing, gigantic plot holes, incorrect dialect/slang, breaks in logic, and insults to my intelligence.  The obvious ones, such as bad grammar, crazy ooc behavior, etc. have already been thrown on the table.

I think it's harder to pin down what makes a good fic, because that has a lot to do with personal taste.  A story can be technically perfect, but still not have 'it' for me.  I personally want Spike to be a vampire, love explorations of his past and motivations, and prefer characterizations that paint him as something other than a really naughty human.  In the end, I think authors have to write to please themselves, and hope that the stories they have to tell strike a chord.

I notice that a lot of people are saying 'characterization', as did I.  Once thing that gets interesting there is that readers and writers have such different views on what's in-character.  Actually, Zoe and I had a little chat along these lines on my lj not long ago. 

Anyway, I sometimes see stories where I think the characters are being not exactly believable but from a lot of the reviews I can tell others think it's great.  So my point is I think we bring our own feelings about the characters to bear on whether we think the writer keeps them in character.   So if two readers have wildly different feelings about Buffy, one may think your writing is dead on while the other is like 'what the hell?'.  Was that too rambly to make sense?

Hmm, not sure why the last showed as guest instead of 'msclawdia'...

msclawdia...yeah I agree...I was trying to get that point across myself, although I did it in a rather annoyingly rambly way lol.  But yeah...you're right, and that's a great way to put it...that both writers and readers come to the table with their own interpretation of the characters based on canon and that determines if they think you are writing the characters properly.  Because everybody wants to see the characters written in ways that agree with THEIR interpretation of things.  

I mean yes, there are some OOC's that are SO far out there, NOBODY believes them to be in character.  But a lot of what's called OOC is really about one person having a different interpretation of a character and his/her motivations and actions than another person.

Another thing we have to watch out for is...after awhile the fanfic we read  can start to color our views of characters either positively or negatively.  It's good to touch base with and remember canon reality and in some sense start from there when figuring out how you're writing your characters.  Even if you agree with something written in a fanfic...I think it's always wise, even if you are going to portray a character a certain way because you agreed with that other fic, to touch base with canon reality and figure out how you will get the character from point A. to point B.

First of all, no human being ever said sweetling.  Grrr Argh. 

I don't really like Angel/Xander/Riley bashing just for the hell of it.  Even though it's totally fun.  All those characters had their goods sides, too.  Of course it is tempting. 

I read a lot a books.  Most of them are lousy.  Most of them aren't half as good as the fun stuff of this list.  Give our selves a pat on the back. 

There are terms used all the time that have become "fan-canon* or as someone cutely put it *fanon* that were never meant to be part of canon.

"Cor" is one of the words that Spike may or may not have used once in the show, and was co-opted and used extensively in early fanfic. 

I don't object to those -- or words used by Spike or Dru or Angel or even Darla that were in use when they were turned and no longer in common usage by the 21st century.  Language evolves all the time and if it didn't we'd all still be speaking Latin.

What I strongly object to is misuse of words. 

What I strongly object to is OOC behavior. For example, season 2 Willow going all damage bound -- or hitting on another woman.  Or Xander suddenly becoming the hero -- at any time.  Or Riley becoming all "one with the girl power" or even Angel being truthful -- or a stand-up guy. 

Character traits, or flaws, for that matter, can be exploited any way the writer chooses, in my humble opinion, as long as there exists a logical, laid-out progression for said exploitation.  In other words -- making Willow all power crazed and wanting to destroy the world is not ooc -- mainly because they did it in canon . . . so if a fanfic writer wants to exploit that trait (flaw) then so be it. Canon opened the door -- but you can't do it in season 2 unless you've laid some serious groundwork.

You also can't introduce a *ship* that isn't canon without some serious groundwork also.  Which is why most slash pairings have to have a certain amount of "suspending your disbelief" around them.  The characters won't just fall in love at first sight nor will they last if the writer chooses to continue with the story line.  I'm not going to buy a ship, just because it's the main pairing in a fic -- make it real, otherwise I'm gonna leave the fic high and dry and stop reading. 

Logical progression -- same as character work, is what makes a story believable.  Otherwise, it's just a bunch of words put together without rhyme or reason.

Pretty much everything I like/dislike has already been mentioned.

Characterisation is EXTREMELY important. If you want to write a character acting in a manner that is not normal for them in that particular time in their life you need to give a very good reason and above all make me believe it-- not just TELL me.

Like many here, I don't read all human fic (with a couple of exceptions).

I'm not a fan of pwp... or gratuitous smut in a longer fic... I like smut as much as the next person... but I have to believe it.  It needs to evoke an emotional response or it isn't 'hot'. If it is just there for the sake of getting them (whoever 'them' is) naked and sweaty then I'm outta there. And again it needs to be in character-- season two Buffy suddenly developing a 'sewer mouth' or being sexually aggressive is pretty unlikely, so unless the author has done a very good job of making it believable then I will simply stop reading.

I'm not a fan of Rape-fic, or baby-fic. I don't like my Spike to be emasculated or my Buffy to be turned into the whore of Babylon. I prefer BtVS fic to AtS. I'm not a big fan of crossovers and I don't like fics that are 'too easy'--for example the ones where everything is solved by a nice convenient spell... especially the ones that have Spike and Buffy falling madly and undyingly in love with NO character or plot development to justify it.

Spike using words like 'Cor' or 'Da' will turn me off a fic, or poor formatting, spelling, punctuation, grammar etc. As will a plot filled with holes, or illogical progression (or NO progression at all). There are many other little things that can turn me off reading one fic that I can put up with in another fic, depending on how well-written the story is.

And of course, as Slaymesoftly stated earlier, there are ALWAYS individual exceptions. lol

Ok,  for me it's Plot, Sub-plots and more plot.  I have no problem with smut or smut free fic,  whatever the plot calls for.  If the plot is a goodone I can forgive OOC for a few chapters until you can show me why characters are acting this way.

Of course I seriously agree that what each individual sees as OOC is up to the individual.  We each saw each character diffrent,  We judge them by our experiances in life,  

B/S/A throws me out of a story, not that I think it is OOC, but because I know that Spike loved Buffy enough to live with it even though I think he would hate it.  Don't have Bangel where Buffy 'settles' for Spike.  Again it might happen but I refuse to read it.  If Buffy in the smut scene is thinking about loving anyone but Spike.... I'm out of there.  Basically Spike was screwed over enough by Joss and co.  I realy don't want to read fic about it.

hehehe wulfie.  I like B/S/A  I mean...overlooking Angel's character flaws...what sane girl wouldn't want to be the meat in THAT sandwich? ;)

But to clarify...I like B/S/A where all three of them love each other.  Not where Spike is getting the shaft.  "Three Hearts Entwined" is an excellent example of a threesome that ends happy for all of them, by Mrs. Muir.

Would you read a B/S/W???  heh

Or a B/S/F?

I think all three of the menage a trois scenarios are pretty hot.

O..k,  I honestly don't think Spike would be in a sexual relationship with Angel because he chose to be.  If it is S/B/A  then he or Angel would have to be written grossly out of character, at least those are my thoughts :P

maybe i'm just more easily swayed, but I can see it.  I mean I know a lot of people, especially in spuffy fic focus a lot on Angelus' mistreatment of Spike, but I can believe they might have had something between them off screen.  Joss was really playing the homoerotic undertones in season five of Angel.

Oh...also there is a ton of Angel/Spike Slash.

I'm with Wulfie, I don't buy it... I also don't buy Spangel so the fact that it exists doesn't make S/B/A any more believeable to me.

As for any sane girl not wanting to be the meat in that sandwich? Well, I think Angel is gross. Not just because I don't like his character (and I mean his actions, thoughts etc here not the show character) and think he is a self-centred, egotistical, manipulative git--there is also nothing attractive about the man... I'm sure DB is a lovely person but YUCK!!!

*snort*  I bet that hurt to say out loud :P

roflmao

outside of the buffy relationship, I like Angel.

I'm with Always_jbj - never liked Angel, and don't much care for the physical attributes of the actor, don't much find him attractive at all.  That said, to me he is easier to take as Angelus - at least then he doesn't appear so wooden and is at least not a hypocrite.  I have a hard time seeing S/B/A work either - part of the reason is that I believe Spike thinks as I do that at least Angelus is honest (or is honestly dishonest) and any relationship he might have had in the past is with Angelus, not Angel.  All we know that Angel ever did for him was try to put down Spike and belittle his accomplishments in killing his first Slayer, and then leave (flashback in China).  But I have seen a few stories where Spangel works.  But willingly sharing Buffy - not so much, no, don't see it.

Didn't hurt that much, Pup. Occasionally you have something valid to say! *wink* LOL

Zoe, Angel was controlling and manipulative in all his relationships. Just look at the way he treated the AI team--the mind wipe is a perfect example. As is manoeuvring  them into the battle with the Black Thorn. It was most likely a fight they would have been willing to undertake, but he really didn't leave them much choice. By the time he told them about his plan, it was basically too late to do anything else. People, even people he supposedly cared about, were nothing but pawns for Angel to use to HIS benifit.

The thing I find most troubling with many of the Buffyverse fan fiction is the excessive use of  sex - so often it is just out of place and disruptive to the flow of a story.  I sometimes think that the writers give too much importance to the sexual encounters, most readers are interested in your stories, not how good Spike or Angel or any character is as a sex partner.  If a reader is especially interested in strong and heavy descriptive sex and erotica they can read a PWP.  I have taken to just skipping entire sections of a story when a sex scenes is used without any real foundation and justification for inclusion. 

Write a story that touches the reader - that will have honest and realistic use of your characters; stories that will bring have strong emotional connections for your readers.  I can't help but feel that all the writers doing this work want to develop their skills and have effective work - work that will reach out to their readers, and that happens when the stories are written from inner strength and emotions of the creator.  The Buffyverse has given us wonderful characters to work with, but the ff writers still have to bring their creative efforts and struggle to the work and those efforts need to be based on trying to do your best - not just what comes easy to what someone else wants or would like.

I would like to see more writers expand the use of original characters and to write work based on some of the Whedonverse characters other than  the major ones.  I would still love to see a story that would
explore the theme of Lorne turning away from Angel in their last episode. Lorne tells Angel he can't be 
connected with him anymore, and I think this would make a great story - wish someone would write it.

Sorry for any errors, not so good with the spelling etc -   

always_jbj, I'm sorry, but outside of his personal interactions with Buffy, I like Angel, and I like Angelus too. (Let's not forget Buffy did some horrible and self-involved things as well. I often think one of the primary reasons the Buffy and Angel relationship didn't work is that they are both entirely too selfish and yet they both seem to have hero/martyr complexes.) 

I have a particular fondness for Angelus/buffy fics and Threesomes that Involve Angelus, Buffy and Spike.

I understand that's not your cup of tea, but it's mine.

I agree with the point about too much sex. (Unless the story is ABOUT sex) If it's about sex, or a dark fic about darker kinds of sex, I'm OK with that.  I don't like fluffy spuffy where they are madly falling into each other's arms in mad passionate sex every chapter.  Unless it's a sexual plot and a lot of the story hinges on sexuality, or unless there is some deep emotion or whatever being conveyed, I don't want to see every sex scene.  And I especially don't want to see every sex scene described like a car manual.

And part of that might be that I just get very very bored with more vanilla sex, especially when it's written out.  There is only so much "Oh Buffy, you're so hot, so wet, so beautiful, my beautiful buffy." , "Oh God Spike, Yes Yes Yes" that I can handle.  

Now if you want to bring whips and chains into it, or give me something a little more naughty or dangerous I'm all on board.  Otherwise, I prefer the sex to be more implied than explicitly stated so we can move on with the plot.

That's fine, whatever turns you on... I'm just saying that it isn't MINE and that I am sure there are many other SANE women out there who feel the same way about being the meat in any sandwich involving Angel.

It wasn't meant as a personal affront or a slam on your sanity.  It was just a saying.  It had nothing to do with you personally, nor did it mean that anyone who didn't think Angel/us was hot was in some way crazy.  Everybody likes and dislikes different things sexually.  It was just a saying. Nothing more. No need to break out the capital letters.

Fair enough, but it certainly came across that way... especially when you got your knickers in a knot over me stating my reasons why I don't like Angel. But then again I could just be tired.

heh that's cool.  I didn't get my knickers in a knot lol, I just explained what I liked. After stating that I liked Angel you went into a paragraph about why he was evil.  Now granted you probably meant that as just your opinion, but it sounded more like "OMG you psycho, how can you like angel after all THIS" heh.  So I just explained why...and then you brought up the sanity quote, but that was before we'd even gotten into a discussion, so in a sense it's out of context, because I didn't make that statement after you joined the convo, but before.

Anyway, I'm splitting hairs and being a bitch here, but there ya go.  At any rate I wasn't trying to jump on you or rag on you personally, was only specifying my position and I'm sorry if it felt like a personal attack.

If you were to look at my first response to you you will note that it was the sanity comment that prompted me to respond in the first place...so, no, it isn't out of context.

Anyway enough about that... I believe this thread was for discussing writing likes and dislikes. Not character likes and dislikes.

yeah I didn't mention the first time, because the first time you mentioned it, you weren't defensive about it, you were just stating your position.  

The second time it seemed like the statement was a bit more personal to you, even though it still was, what it was...a general statement I'd made not AT anyone before you'd joined the convo.  

It was a casual: "Damn that's hot...who wouldn't want that?"  the "sane"  part was hyperbole. 

As the argument seemed to escalate, the statement seemed to become personal to you (which IS out of context, because it was never originally directed at you.)

And yeah, we are getting off topic here, although I've never known a thread on any forum to remain unhijacked for it's duration. 

Angel, shudder...

You know, when BtVS first came out I was actually on board with the whole B/A thing. What can I say, I was young and the whole overdramatic teenage-romance thig still appealed to me. Today, that's the thing that most digusts me about that relationship. Yeah, Angel is a overbearing and manipulative git, and his whole behaviour really pisses me off - but I don't like Buffy very much either, so what do I care if she ends up with that idiot. But the whole thing was just so junveile, all weltschmertz and drama. In fact, drama was all there was - something all those "great first loves" of clueless teenagers seem to have in common. UGH! And yeah, most people had one of those when they were in that age, but for god's sake, Angel was a grown man! Looking back at the early seasons as an adult, it's just rediculous to watch a twenty-something guy (ignoring vamp-years) behave like a teen that has no idea of how the world works.

Teenagers and their "problems" are, more often than not, nothing but annoying once you've grown out of it, so seeing how much Angel got into it, how he practically feed off the drama, just sqicks me out.

And Angelus was a joke. Sorry LOL I could never take him seriously after "Passions". The voiceover thing they had going in that eppy was just ....

 And Angelus was a joke. Sorry LOL I could never take him seriously after "Passions". The voiceover thing they had going in that eppy was just ....

Pathetic?  Lame?  Funny? 

All of the above?

I'm a sane, highly intelligent person and I don't for one second want to be the meat in a Spike/Angel sandwich.  Make it Spike/Wesley or Spike/Giles and we have a different matter altogether.

And discussing a character isn't necessarily off topic, especially when considering we are discussing him in conjunction with likes/dislikes in FF.

Any fic that has a S/B/A pairing has got to make it work.  Personally, it can't be post either of the shows, because by then, despite the kiss and cookie speech, Buffy was over Angel and wasn't going to go back on already bloody ground. 

And people -- get this thru your heads.  Spike is possessive.  Spike is not the sharing type.  He might have ground his teeth and bourne it when they were vampires living cheek to jowl, but he wasn't gonna put up with it when he was at full strentgh.  He's not going to willingly share Buffy with anyone, much less Angel.  It just isn't going to fly.

Angel was -- not a good man.  Liam was a drunk, a manwhore (like the demons pegged him during Harmony's episode), and basically as a human he eschewed any values or morals his parents instilled in him as a child/young man.  He was not one of the good guys.  Despite the soul, despite being initially the Power's champion.  He was not a champion, and unless he gets a witness, he will never be a champion.   Champions don't constantly whine about "what's in it for me".  They don't do things hoping for recognition.  They don't manipulate their friends, their lovers and everyone around them.  They don't abandon family.  They don't walk away when they are needed.

First of all, I really can't believe that anyone would take even the smallest level of offense to my "sane woman" comment, as it really didn't have anything to do with anyone's personal preference but my own.  Hello? Hyperbole.  Plenty of people go: "You'd have to be crazy to kick that out of bed" and those who would kick it out of bed don't get all indignant and feel it necessary to defend their sanity or intelligence.

Anyway...that's neither here nor there...

S/B/A This is not an attempt to "convince you' I think people who don't like this threesome or slash or any threesome cannot and will not be convinced, however I personally don't believe in OOC pairings.  I think given the right set of circumstances any couple/threesome/whatever can get together. (how often in life do we see people paired up that we don't understand HOW they got paired up?)

I believe that S/B/A can work in several different ways...In watching all of the flashback scenes between Spike and Angelus, it's clear (to me at least) That Spike's primary sharing issue had to do with being pushed out.  It wasn't a threesome.  It was Angelus sleeping with his woman.  Had they actually been in a threesome, it could have worked, and had Darla not been in the picture it might have.

There were various points of affection and solidarity between the two vampires throughout their history.  It's clear to me at least that they had a love/hate relationship (something which spike also later had with Buffy).  I find it hard to believe a love/hate relationship like what they had going on in their history and also in AtS season 5 exists without ANY sexual tension.   

So I completely believe a Spike/Angelus could work, and it could work adding another female to the mix.  But IMO there really has to be an affection between the two for it to work.  Despite Spike's rabid hate of Angel/us, had things gone differently in these areas, I believe his reaction to his grandsire would be MUCH different. Also, "had this gone differently" is the meat and potatoes of fanfic.

As for Buffy...I truly believe Spike would do whatever he had to do to have Buffy.  If that means share her, I believe he would have shared her. (And I'm telling you this also from a personal place. I strongly identified with the character of Spike and I love my husband and I'm deeply possessive, but if the only way I could have him would be to share him, I'd do it in a heartbeat.)  I don't care how possessive Spike is, I believe he would do the same.  But like I said, I prefer these threesome scenarios where there is some equality involved. I agree with Wulfie on the point about not putting Spike in another abusive relationship, that he got that enough on the show.

As for Angel's goodness...I haven't really argued for his goodness, only his hotness.  When I say I'd be in the middle of that sandwich, I'm not saying it cause Angel is supposed to be some champion.  Helping little old ladies across the street isn't what gets me hot.  And I prefer Angelus generally anyway to Angel.  I'm saying I'd be screwing them six ways from Sunday due to the hotness and danger factor.  And yeah...not everyone finds the same things physically attractive...and just to avoid extra offense, let me explicitly state, you are not literally insane if for whatever reason he doesn't get your motor running.

But about Angel's character.  I believe often in the Spuffyverse, Angel gets turned into a caricature.  He's not a great guy, no.  But Buffy wasn't a great person either.  Nor was Willow, Giles, Xander, Riley.  Hell I really think both shows are more about Anti-heroes than actual true heroes.  

However, Angel did make some good choices at various points.  There is SOME good there.   Maybe not a lot, but a little.

Also, this post is not intended to change anyone's mind, or say I'm "right" And in the world of fiction where everything is interpretation and perception, can there really be a "right?"   This is just my opinion on the matter.  Other people have theirs.  I don't think it really needs to be stated (but then I didn't think I would have to qualify that sanity remark either.) but other opinions are just as valid.

That last post was me...sorry I forgot to log in.

... however I personally don't believe in OOC pairings.  I think given the right set of circumstances any couple/threesome/whatever can get together.

Ok, not to start up a new discussion, but that doesn't make sense to me. In a given universe like BtVS, it is absolutely impossible for every pairing to work. The characters already exist, they have all their own preferences and quirks, their own minds so to say. No matter how you change their enviroment, there are cretain truth about them that you cannot change. A lot of that depends on how you see the character, i.e. personally I don't see the potential gayness of Xander or Spike, but whatever. But some things will just never be believable, for no-one. No author, no matter how good he/she is, will ever be able to write Joyce/Dawn or Buffy/Dawn and make me believe it. Not without it being completely OOC. The same goes for a lot of other pairings.

And taking away everyone with a different gender does NOT make someone suddenly attracted to people of your own sex. It makes me want to scream when people try to sell that. Here in fandom, we're all pretty open-minded about m/m or f/f pairings; and I'm pretty sure no one here would agree with the bible-wielders who believe homosexuality is a phase and can be trained out of someone - so why the hell would the same people think it works the other way around? People want to write it? Fine, but please stop trying to sell it off as In Character. LOL -- This part was not in regards to Zoe's post btw. I just remembered that I've been wanting to say that for a while now, so I tacked it on here.

Dia, 

OK I should have qualitifed that.  When I say i don't think any pairing is OOC, I don't really mean things like Joyce/Dawn.  I guess because that's incest and my mind doesn't even go DOWN that trail when thinking of possible pairings.  I was thinking more along the lines of pairings like Spike and Cordy or Spangel. 

I think given the right circumstances almost any couple can be together.  I mean some are more ridiculous than others, and some you read just for the humor...like Andrew/Spike...oh Come ON this is a hilarious pairing ;)

I mean...ok what about Willow and Tara?  IMO, though I like the character, that's a WTF match.  I mean there had been no indication whatsoever that Willow had any Bisexual tendencies (and I totally don't buy that she was gay...as in...suddenly the penis held no appeal, whereas that was her sexual orientation for the first 18 years of her life.), but suddenly we throw some hot girl on girl action and people are all over it.  

And Joyce/Dawn, well that's squicky and incestuous.  Maybe I should have said "with very few exceptions" I don't believe in OOC pairings lmao.  Cause OMG I never would have THOUGHT Joyce/Dawn, or Buffy/Dawn Oh god oh god the images.  Also, I just ate lunch lol.

hahaha I totally can see Spander.  I can see either Spike or Xander going that way much easier than Willow.  I've always seen it in both Spike and Xander.  (if I'm not mistaken the writers had considered making Xander the gay character for awhile and "phases" was supposed to help to set that up.)

Xander commented to Spike that he was biteable and a "nummy treat", he also pointed out that Spike was compact and well-muscled to which Buffy said: "I'm not sleeping with Spike, but I'm starting to think that you might be."  There were also lots of times when Xander would notice a guy's good looks and then brush it off.

And with Spike, there was always the undercurrents between him and Angelus.  So I can see him and Xander, though I don't particularly care for the match cause I'm not a big Xander fan.

heh Dia.  What you said about "does NOT makes someone suddenly attracted to people of their own sex." is exactly why I was irritated by the Willow/Tara thing at first.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I like them as a couple, I just didn't buy that Willow's bisexuality was THAT latent.  Also, had they tried to sell it more as bisexuality than confused lesbianism I would have bought it more readily.  

In the show they  never referred to her as bisexual.  Willow even said something like: "hello? gay now."  And I'm like..."um sweetie you don't just DEVELOP homosexual tendencies." I mean hello? I saw her with Xander and Oz.  She was totally digging the boy parts.  Maybe she had VERY VERY latent Bi tendencies...but full out lesbianism? No, not buying.

Well, whether she was a lesbian or just bi? I don't think she ever denied being bi. And when she suddenly has a girlfriend she wouldn't do the big relevation scene with her frinds and tell them "I'm bi.", she'd only see said girlfriend at that moment; and I've been told that coming out of the closet is stressfull and scary enough, don't think she'd stop to debate the finer points.

I think Willow was believable because she was 18/19 at that point, and many people only discover their homosexuality (or bisexuality) then. She was never a big flirt, or someone who went out with a lot of guys. There was only Oz (I don't really count Xander, I think a good part of that was the fact that he was the only guy who ever spent time with her), and it isn't exactly unusual to have one hetero relationship first. If for no other reason than that it is pretty much expected.

Xander, Spike, Buffy and Tara on the other hand, we watched being strait (or gay in Tara's case) until a much later time. I'm pretty sure that it is less common for a 20-something person to suddenly decide they don't like guys/girls anymore.

Like I said, I could never see those so-called gay tendacies of Xander. What the writers intended to do doesn't count, they didn't, so forget it. His comments about good-looking guys? I notice good-looking women all the time. Doesn't mean I have even the slightest interest in anything sexual with them. In fact, it usually tastes a lot like jelousy - I want to look like that, have her hair, her legs, her boobs... I also know enough guys who make commets like that and are definitly NOT gay.

Possibilities or tension between Angel(us) and Spike? Sorry, don't see that either. The whole "vamps are bi" or "vamps will fuck anything" or "vamp-families always have sex with each other" stuff is NOT BtVS canon. Dunno where that came from, and quite fankly, I don't care for mixing it up with the BtVS-verse at all. The BtVS vamps were MUCH more human than the vamps in any other verse, so most of the things people like to import clash horrible with what we saw in the show. - And if someone DOES import something like that, they can't use it as an argument for their pairing, that's cheating.

Maybe there were some hints of A/S on AtS, didn't watch much of that so I wouldn't know - but BtVS and AtS canon don't always agree with each other, so I tend to stick with BtVS.

 As for Buffy...I truly believe Spike would do whatever he had to do to have Buffy.  If that means share her, I believe he would have shared her.  . . . .   I don't care how possessive Spike is, I believe he would do the same. 

I don't think so, especially post NFA.  Spike was not willing to roll over anymore and be secondary to anyone.  He wasn't willing to share Drusilla -- he took it, mainly because in the pecking order at the time, he had no way to enforce his place.  And when he was in the wheelchair he didn't either.  The whole reason why he wanted to get rid of Angel(us) was because he wanted Dru back -- for himself.  Not to share, not to have a threesome. 

Spike may be love's bitch, but he does have a lot of pride, something that gets conveniently ignored when people write him.   

As for Spander -- while Xander may have actually been leaning that way -- he hated Spike and wouldn't go near him -- and his flaunting about his nummy goodness was his way of being cruel, not as a come-on.  And I don't thnk Spike would have done anything with Xander unless everything was different. 

And as for Spike making eyes or picking someone else?  Past a certain point on BtVS -- Spike himself tells you what he's feeling, and how things are for him.  Ignoring it just takes the character out of himself.  He loves Buffy.  She's the one.  She will always be the one for him.  And he says it pretty damn clearly.  It's not about her loving him back.  It's how he feels about her.  He may have fleeting relationships with others -- but his heart belongs to one person.

And in case anyone's wondering, that last post was mine.

Me again. I completely agree with Niamh! And I'd like to add something to the comment she quoted.

Spike would do whatever he had to do to have Buffy.  If that means share her, I believe he would have shared her

THAT is not something I would want to read even if I believed it. If I want Spike to have to content himself with the scraps someone throws him, to give up on his dreams just so doesn't get completely left out in the cold - then I can just watch the show. But I read B/S fanfiction because I want more than that for him!

That's a good point Patti, about the vamp willow thing. I'd completely forgotten about that.  And yeah, that may have been them laying the groundwork for Willow.

Also Dia, I can agree with you that one doesn't usually determine they dislike the opposite sex only in their twenties, although I DO feel that bisexual tendencies can come out that late, especially if there was former religious oppression.  I tend to think of sexuality more as a continuum than black and white and a place in the perfect middle for bi.  Some people are 100% straight, some are 100% gay, but I really believe most people are somewhere else on the continuum.  

Some people just lean so far one way or the other that they don't truly entertain ideas of the other...and again societal pressures and religious stuff can get in people's way.

Nia, as for your comment about post NFA, I really don't think MOST S/B/A fics work post NFA.  I think they have to happen very early on to work in most cases though of course there are exceptions.  

There again, as for the Spike has too much pride to share...I have tons of pride, but I would share if I had to.  I understand I am me and Spike is Spike, but still pride isn't a reason to say there is no way he would share.  Sometimes love overcomes pride.  Other factors besides just pride goes into what someone is willing to do in the bedroom and in a relationship.

Also the mention (don't remember who it was) about Spike wanting to take Dru away from Angelus in season two, not share her and have a threesome, yes I agree. However that doesn't mean there was no point where a threesome would have been possible with them.  It takes the right kind of setup.  Also, not every threesome is created equal.  Some of them are true equal relationships as much as is possible.  Some of them are all just about the sex but still with some respect on all sides.  Some of them are deeply unhealthy on all levels but the parties involved keep coming back to them for whatever reason.  

All three of these types of S/B/A IMO can work if it's set up right.  There are also a lot of S/B/A situations that happen in season two with an evil angelus that gets ahold of Buffy, both vampires want her and work something out and the only credibility factor to work on is Buffy. (which can be played effectively as well...from the Angelus side her continued love for angel can be played on, and Spike's kindness to her when Angelus is all horrible can be played on, and somewhere or another at some point they all meet in the middle and are on the same or a similar page...of course Dru usually has to be chucked in some way for this to work.  But I've written a lot of fics where Dru died in prague cause she just gets in the way of a season two spuffy let alone a season two S/B/A)

I know what fic you're talking about Patti. I read it last year. I can say it was one of the B/S/A ones that I do like. They are all equals. Those are the only B/S/A fics I'll read. If its where Angel(us) is controlling everything and Spike is getting sloppy seconds I won't read, it pisses me off too much.

There might have been some sexual thing between Spike and Angel in the past, but imo, I don't think it was a mutual thing. More along the lines of Angel dominating Spike, reminding him of his place. And belittling him in front of Dru and Darla.

As for season 5 of Angel, I'm still on the fence with that one. Sometimes I find myself thinking what was the real motivation behind Angel not wanting Spike to tell Buffy he was back, was to keep Spike to himself? I mean the man is possessive, at one point he may have felt he did indeed own Spike, as well as Buffy. Therefore he wanted to keep what was his with him, and away from Buffy. Just my thoughts.

But Spike has way to much pride to share Buffy with anyone. Like Nia said he put up with Angel and Dru because he had to. If he wasn't a fleg and had more power I'm sure he would have challenged Angel a long time ago for Dru. So saying he would do anything he could to have Buffy, in reguards to sharing I don't bite. He's a one woman vamp, period.

But call me a perve,  I'd be sandwitched between the two,lol.

hahahah goldenbuffy...and that's really the crux of it...if we can find SOME way to make it equal so Spike doesn't suffer, because yummy, both of those hot vamps at one time?  There's just something so deliciously naughty about that .  Even when there's no kink...meow.

I dislike helpless, weepy Buffy who needs Spike to "rescue" her from her abusive father, or abusive ex-boyfried, or abusive Xander type of fan fiction.

I also dislike when a writer bashes a character to show Spike in a better light and make Buffy "realize" that all the guys in her life suck but Spike.

My dislikes are usually about making Spike the saint he's not, I love Spike, he's my favorite character and the reason he was very interesting was that he's not so pure, he has his faults just like the other characters.

Holy canoli my head is spinning...I read every single post here and  O.o

What I like is a believable plot. I like when a story flows nicely and doesn't stay vanilla all the time. Vampires are sexual creatures - its not uncommon for there to be 3somes, 4somes or moresomes if you read vampiric lore. Its also not uncommon for single pairings. Vamps function pretty much just like us humans and there are all kinds out there and the same goes in Vampiric worlds. They just tend to be more open to the experiences because they don't have the same worry/guilt that the rest of us have. I also understood vampiric sexuality to be about the sex and the feelings--hedonism, if you will--not about preferring one anatomy to another.

For me, sexuality isn't just one or another. It's not about being gay or straight or bi - it comes down to the feelings for someone else and whether there was a sexual attraction or not. I've been attracted to women just as well as men and all of my relationships have been with men, but its not to say I wouldn't be with a woman just because I feel that I am 'straight'. I had a serious crush on a neighbor and if I hadn't been so incredibly shy, I would have said something. Instead I did the whole daydreaming, sneaking peeks type thing and when I moved away, I missed her (she was British to boot!)

So pairing a A/B/S fic wont turn me from it, unless its not written believably. Spike has hinted at sexual things with Angel, outside the torture bit as well as Angel having hinted at things of a sexual nature with Spike. It wasn't always hate/doom/torture with the two of them and both have also expressed that as well. The Scoobs and the AI team were in close counters a great deal of the time and most of which was during some sort of grandioise apocalyptic battle or their version of gardien variety, every day vamp/demon danger. Being in situations like that, especially as often as they all were, lines are often blurred or crossed in more ways than one be it sexual, emotional or personal.

I do hate extensive Angel bashing. Its done a WHOOOOLE lot in fanfic. I mean yeah, he did some seriously crappy stuff, but so did just about EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER on both shows barring Cordy/Fred/Dawn/Tara (and yes I would love to be the peanutbutter in an Angel/Oz or Wesley/Angel or Angel/Spike sammich - yes I'm depraved :P). Everyone else had their dark sides but only some were able to hide it a bit better than others (but the fic where Angel is dusted repeated as the day repeats was incredibly funny). I don't like Riley. He wasn't such a bad guy...no worse than anyone else on the show, but for me...just rubbed me wrong. I also can't STAND Kennedy. So many fics keep Willow and Kennedy together, but for me...bleh. It wasn't very loving with those two--more like filling a need. That and I just think Kennedy to be a spoiled, selfish, self-centered snob. Again though, that is just me. Plenty like her just fine.

I'm sorry, but Willow ending the word? Crossing the line. Do I understand why? Yes, cause grief causes some really fsked up emotions in people and you can become blinded and I speak from personal experience again. Think about how you would feel if someone you loved was killed and died in your arms? Xander trying to rape Buffy when he was possessed? Crossing the line. Do I understand it? Yes because that kind of obsessiveness is in his nature.

Everything that everyone has done...there have been reasons for even if you don't find them to be believable or worthy enough and nine out of 10 times, things that have been done--its usually an emotional reaction on some level or another.

You don't like Angel/Angelus, and want to exploit his flaws regularly? Hey you're entitled to that and its cool by me. I personally don't like it all the time because that isn't all that Angel was. If that were the truth, no-one would have liked him enough for him to have gotten his own series nor would they have continued watching it. The writers gave every character on BtVS and AtS the potential of going one way or the other. They set the stage for everyone to become really dark or to improve and become better than they were.

Don't forget, Spike has a whooole history of having done some really horrific things; he was 1/4 of the Scourge of Europe for cripes sake but he is always made the hero in most fics because in cannon, he fell in love with Buffy and decided to turn over a new leaf. Some also forget, Spike was never, ever alone. He was with Dru from the time of his turning until she left him for the Chaos Demon. When Angel was resouled, he went off and was by himself for a very, very long time no support system or anything. In my opinion, doing that was one of the worst things for him because lets face it, we are all our own worst enemy and him being by himself just gave him that much of an opportunity to turn into the broody, self-reflecting, secrective person that he became. He might have been older then Spike, but Spike had someone there for him at the end of the day that he could talk to, even if she was loony.

Everyone has flaws and strengths. Everyone has reasons for them just as we all do in real life. We can ALWAYS change our weak points. Its just a matter of wanting to bad enough or having the motivation to do so.

And I've spouted off long enough so I'm just gonna shut up now and hope that no-one throws things at me.

The Space Between said:

I don't like Riley. He wasn't such a bad guy...no worse than anyone else on the show, but for me...just rubbed me wrong.

I don't like him either. But I dislike the Riley bashing because the story doesn't appear believable. Riley was a very nice guy, but a tad boring.

Xander trying to rape Buffy when he was possessed? Crossing the line. Do I understand it? Yes because that kind of obsessiveness is in his nature.

I don't think the attempt of rape was Xander's fault, in the end he was possessed by an animal. But I thought it was uncool of him to pretend he didn't remember, also Giles backing him up on it was uncool.