BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Is Buffy guilty of sexual assault?

Apr 06 2009 09:09 pm   #1spikes_wish
Earlier today someone on LJ brought up the interesting idea that Buffy could be guilty of sexually assaulting Spike specifically when she goes down on Spike in "Gone", and I wondered what people thought.

Spike is trying to throw her out at the time, and he's seemingly put an end to this particular tryst, but I'm not sure it can therefore be called sexaul assault.

They have just had sex, and Buffy wants their sexcapades to continue, but I personally see this as an attempt for Buffy to seduce her lover- much in the same way Spike tried to seduce her that morning in the kitchen (you can see where his hand goes for about a split second on screen, and it's clearly shown in the dallies). Also in the same way Spike tries to persuade Buffy to stay with him during the "morning after" scene in the broken house.

Spike's reaction is also not exactly discouragin- he accuses her of cheating- seducing her way back into his bed in a way that he's aware might work- so it can't be entirely unwanted. By the next scene we know that Buffy's ploy didn't work.. However, there are times in practically all sexual relationships where one or the other partner has tried to persuade their partner into sex through sexual acts, even when their partner has told them they're not in the mood. And although Buffy and Spike's relationship is far from normal and stable, I think this is one of the lighter moments in the relationship in which they're both acting like a normal couple- aside from one of them being invisible.
Apr 06 2009 09:17 pm   #2slaymesoftly
Nah, in no way was that a sexual assault. She was just using what she knew might work to get what she wanted. And if he didn't think it was going to work (or if he thought he should be offended or hurt by it), he wouldn't have called it "cheating". He thought they were having an argument, she tried to settle it by physical means.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Apr 06 2009 09:45 pm   #3spikes_wish
That's what I thought too, so I was amazed that so many people thought otherwise! It will be interesting to see if/who disagrees with me though.
Apr 06 2009 10:17 pm   #4Sotia
She was just using what she knew might work to get what she wanted.

Exactly what Spike thought he was doing in Seeing Red.
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Apr 06 2009 10:34 pm   #5slaymesoftly
Um...no. They'd been having sex, she was being playful, there was no strong emotion involved until Spike got huffy about hiding it from Xander. Totally different situations -and, at the risk of sounding sexist (cause it is, but is also true to a large extent), offering a blow job to an already naked man who was just on top of you is hardly an assault comparable to the attempt of an ex boyfriend to have sex with you when you're hurt, tired and saying "no".
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Apr 06 2009 10:42 pm   #6spikes_wish
Gotta disagree- Spikes actions in Seeing Red weren't motivated by lust the same way Buffy's were. Spike was trying to take back some of the control he'd lost, inch by inch to Buffy, until he felt completely powerless, provoking him to violence.

Throughout the entire scene he's trying to prove to Buffy that she loves him through force- it's all he's got left, and it's the only way he's ever been able to connect with her. He's trying to exert control on a situation in which he's lost all. Months of Buffy mentally abusing him (as well as physically, but I get the feeling that the mental abuse affects him more), and him just taking it have pushed him to his limits.  Plus, Buffy says no repeatedly, struggles and crawls away from him. She's crying and begging him to stop. It's also important to note that they were no longer involved sexually.

What Buffy did can in no way be compared- they were involved in a consensual sexual relationship, Spike by calling it 'cheating' its clear that she wasn't doing anything he didn't want (he just wanted it on his terms). Buffy is acting out of lust. It's no different to most sexual relationships- a far cry from the horrific scene in the bathroom which they finally drive their relationship too. I like to think if Spike had continued to be firm with her as he is in Gone, it never would have gotten that far. But he gave in, and it ended up all on Buffy's terms.
Apr 06 2009 10:47 pm   #7Guest
But at the risk of sounding like I'm agreeing with rape here, Spike didn't actually mean what he did. You have to liken the situation back to that of the hyena-Xander rape in Season 1. He was simply letting his more primal urges lead the way, because that had worked in the past. You have to remember the scene in As You Were in front of the house with the tree. She repeatedly said no, but then succumbed and took him behind the tree. Which also happened on the balcony in Dead Things, and in the morning after in Wrecked. She always said no, yet then she always let him anyway. So therefore, he figured it to work again, why wouldn't it?

Afterwards he realized that she had said no, but honestly, I felt more sorry for Spike in that scene than Buffy. I felt like it was entirely her fault, he really couldn't have known better, she'd 'trained' him differently.
Apr 06 2009 11:02 pm   #8Sotia
I'm with Guest.

They'd been having sex, she was being playful, there was no strong emotion involved until Spike got huffy about hiding it from Xander. Totally different situations -and, at the risk of sounding sexist (cause it is, but is also true to a large extent), offering a blow job to an already naked man who was just on top of you is hardly an assault comparable to the attempt of an ex boyfriend to have sex with you when you're hurt, tired and saying "no".

I disagree here. I didn't find Buffy playful when she busted into his crypt and tore his shirt open, and she was only playing with his ear when Xander was there as part of her flirting with danger/living on the edge routine; the same routine sleeping with Spike was part of.

Furthermore, on the blow job front, taking advantage of someone's obvious physical advantage to you to ignore their feelings and sentimental needs is rape to me. Saying that Spike was naked is the same as saying for a rape victim that she was asking for it in my books.

Buffy didn't stop Spike in the bathroom. She pushed him away, but he could have tried again. We're talking about a man who wouldn't give up, who would stop at nothing to get what he was after, and yet he stopped and he apologized. Spike stopped Spike, when he caught on to how what he was doing was affecting Buffy.

I will never see SR as an attempted rape. The way I see it, it's the desperate attempt of a man in agonizing pain to win back the woman who led him there, his relationship with whom was--from the start--based on sex and violence.
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Apr 06 2009 11:24 pm   #9spikes_wish

There is no way Spike could possibly have mistaken what happened in Seeing Red for anything they'd ever doen before. Maybe to begin with, but she literally tried to crawl away from him, she was begging, pleading and crying for him to stop.

I agree that Spike didn't mean to hurt her- it was a loss of control similar to Buffy's in dead things. Doesn't make him any less wrong (nor her), or any less far away from what Buffy did in Gone.

And 'trained'? Give the guy some credit. He's smarter than a puppy.

I will say that I really felt for Spike in the aftermath of that scene. He clearly felt awful, and shocked at how out of control he'd gotten. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean it wasn't attempted rape.

Apr 06 2009 11:35 pm   #10spikes_wish
Furthermore, on the blow job front, taking advantage of someone's obvious physical advantage to you to ignore their feelings and sentimental needs is rape to me

In that case, Spike feeling Buffy up in the kitchen earlier in that episode counts as Rape. As does the morning after scene where he sticks his hand under he skirt in the abandoned building when Buffy has said no, and that shee needed to go. And so does Seeing Red- Spike had the physical advantage in that scene as Buffy was hurt and she'd told him multiple times that what they'd done was emotionally damaging her.

There is absoloutely no way you can say Gone is rape and Seeing Red isn't. It literally doesn't make sense.

And I disagree that Buffy wasn't being playful in that scene- in fact it's one of the few scenes in which Buffy is playful with Spike- the tone of her voice and the ear thing both suggest this- even if it was partly the whole almost getting caught thing fueling her, doesn't mean that it wasn'tplayful.
Apr 06 2009 11:43 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis
Okay, staying with "Gone" and that episode alone--

First, rape involves actual intercourse of some kind.  Feeling someone up would never be considered intercourse.  The morning after scene, well, this is the morning after Buffy literally jumped on Spike and impaled herself on him, so her wants were made clear.  She initiated the sex, to which Spike was surprised.  That morning after was a strange place to say the least.

In "Gone," this is after Spike has left, after he was rejected by her.  She shows up later, shoves him around for however long that lasts, and then probably impales herself on him again like the first time.  Right before the fellatio scene, Spike has just held her at a distance away from his person, told her to get her clothes and leave. 

I think this scene would be viewed quite differently if played out in reverse--if Spike had showed up uninvited to Buffy's house, knocked her around for a bit and made her/coerced her/whatever engage in sexual activities, and Buffy told him to get his stuff and leave, after holding him away from her, making it clear that she wanted him gone, and he decided to oh say, finger her into submission, I think that'd be a problem for a lot of viewers.  I don't think it'd be "oh, he was just playing, trying to get her in the mood again" going around at any rate.

ETA:  It's been said before that Buffy relaying the set message of "no" to Spike never was with words, but with violence, like a punch to the face.  If you want to go textbook definition, yes, SR was attempted rape, but when you consider Spike's mental breakdown, and the fact that no, Buffy didn't stop him when she could have stopped him at any given time, and that his intent was to not hurt her, then that makes the whole situation quite gray, doesn't it?
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Apr 06 2009 11:48 pm   #12Guest
yeah, I'd agree that the scene wouldn't work in reverse. A lot of their scenes don't. Which brings up a question, if the only way it's gotten away with it is because Buffy does it.........

CM
Apr 06 2009 11:56 pm   #13Scarlet Ibis
For SR--

Spike wasn't holding Buffy down in that bathroom, wanting her to love him.  He was really holding himself.  That surely makes it understandable and okay.

(And yes, that was sarcasm, stemming from hearing that exact same argument about Buffy in "Dead Things". Spike was depressed and wanting to be loved, and Buffy was depressed and hating herself.  If she can get a pass, why not him?)

ETA: But I agree with Sotia, in that Spike thought he was doing what Buffy wanted in SR--she always played rough  (to put it mildly) with him.  Never before had Spike's crypt or buildings ever became casualties to his coupling with other partners.  Just Buffy, because she introduced that kind of violence and rough housing, so to speak.  Proof's in the pudding.
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Apr 07 2009 12:29 am   #14spikes_wish
I agree that Spike was holding himself down in a way- he wanted control over the situation, and as he defines himself by her (see Crush), so it manifests as him trying to control her. Doesn't make it right in anyway, in the same way that Buffy's depression and hate of herself doesn't excuse what she did in Dead Things. I in no way give Buffy a pass on this (however I was less disturbed by it than the SR scene, as it seemed so OOC for Spike to attack her in such a way. Plus the whole scene is very calm before Spike tries to rape her, unlike in Dead Things where they're screaming at each other- it just makes it all the more disturbing to watch)

Never before had Spike's crypt or buildings ever became casualties to his coupling with other partners.
True, but we have seen Spike 'play rough' before during sex- when Harmony dresses up as Buffy and he tackles her. Obv not to the same extent that he goes with Buffy, but we also know he gets off on violence- he is imagining fighting Buffy whilst having sex with Harmony. So at the least he gets off on violence with Buffy.

And he does try and finger her into submission in a way- he corners her in the kitchen, and restrains her hands while his fingers are playing down south and he again drags her onto his lap post- house wreckage before his fingers disappear up her skirt. The Blowjob was nothing more than the reverse of this as far as I'm concerned, and I think we do see it in a different light because it's Buffy doing it and we, as Spike lovers place a lot of blame at her for what she puts him through (including me). However, I don't think we can justify putting this among her other wrongs without adding a heck load more to Spike's list.
Apr 07 2009 01:08 am   #15Scarlet Ibis
True, but we have seen Spike 'play rough' before during sex
Harmony and Dru never sported bruises, and Spike's crypt was never ruined or in disarray with Harmony.  Most of their intimate scenes together was in the bed and under the covers.  And regardless of what Spike was thinking, his actions were that of a tender lover in that scene.  Spike and Harm held each other--he allowed her to be affectionate (note in AYW, he wasn't even allowed to touch her in the scene where Riley bursts in, which is just one of many scenes where his romantic side is rebuffed).  The two relationships in no way compare.  Spike's condescending remarks were more along the lines of the Xander/Anya dynamic, and they were only particularly caustic in HLoD, which was an episode where the intent was to show that "guy's are jerks" (minus Oz--don't recall if he did much of anything in that ep).

The kitchen scene in "Gone" was not fingering--one hand is lightly holding hers with the spatula, the other was on her hip.  He was rubbing against her.  When I said "fingering," I meant actual fingering.  With penetration in order to represent some kind of equivalent to the blow job.

And I didn't actually mean that Spike was holding down himself in SR....

ETA: I just meant that to say "such and such really thought it was themselves--a mirror--in such and such scene" is a weak excuse and lame reasoning, but I hear it all the time.  Spike had a mental breakdown in that bathroom.  Buffy was angry and projected her own self hatred on Spike in that alley.  That's the first difference. The second?  Only Spike was sorry, and did something about it so it would never happen again.  Buffy?  Not so much.
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Apr 07 2009 01:49 am   #16spikes_wish
No I got that, but in a way it seemed like Spike was doing something similar in a very different way- his struggle for control over himself and their relationship manifested itself as control over her, so maybe in a way...and you can't say didn't react in a way that showed she was horrified over what she'd done, and there is nothing to suggest that her and Spike didn't reconcile before Older and Far Away. In a way, I think what she did outside the police station further fueled her need to confess- she wanted to be punished. And Buffy never does that to Spike again- she hits him, yes, but she doesn't ever beat the living shit out of him ever again.

Re: Gone- if you watch the dallies, his hand is not on her hip. And that dtill doesn't explain away the morning after scene, where his hand is definitely up her skirt.

And no, the relationships don't compare, but he was fantasizing about violence during sex- to the point where he does get off on it. And more to the point, as long as it's consensual and no one gets hurt, there is nothing wrong with rough sex. Spike and Buffy clearly enjoyed themselves in that house. More to the point, most of their sex scenes aren't that rough- post Buffys tackling of Spike in Gone, the scene Xander walks on is far from rough, on the balcony scene they aren't being rough, nor outside the DMP. It's only in Wrecked/Smashed and Dead Things it is shown to be rough.

Also, in Seeing Red, this is the only time we ever see Spike trying to be tender sexually with Buffy, and being rebuffed. Which quickly turns to being much less tender, and becomes much more desperate and rough. So there is no reason to assume that rough sex is unwanted by Spike. In fact he seems to revel in it "You were amazing...I was just trying to keep up" etc
Apr 07 2009 02:02 am   #17Scarlet Ibis
What we were shown in the episode was that she did not apologize.  In the next episode, she specifically tells Tara that she's avoiding him. That doesn't sound like someone who reconciled.  Or the scene with the two of them arguing by the door, and he asks her if she's going to beat him up again, she doesn't flinch or look ashamed or sorry.  It's completely glossed over.

For the kitchen scene in "Gone," well, the dailies were not the episode itself.  When Xander walks in, his hand is on her hip (unless I'm remembering it wrong, and if I am, my bad :P).

And again, fantasizing is not the same as doing.  We don't see the rough sex until he has sex with Buffy. (not that I'm saying it's bad, but you can be rough and not bruise your partner).  "Gone" was rough as well as "Smashed" and DT--everything is in disarray when Xander enters the crypt.  Spike has said before he gets off on the fight, sure, but that doesn't mean he wants to fight while having sex--it's not the same.  And yeah "trying to keep up with you" pretty much establishes where the roughness was coming from.  She set a pace/standard even he couldn't keep up with.

Spike tries to be tender sexually with Buffy in DP, but she looks bored.  She looks bored by his tenderness in AYW, and he in fact is not (and probably wasn't) allowed to touch her in that scene, even though she made him tell her her loved her.  It was completely ass backwards there.
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Apr 07 2009 02:21 am   #18spikes_wish

In AYW I read that scene completely different- it seemed to be the first time they'd actually gone slowly when she was both visible and nor in a public place, and afterwards they fall asleep together- something they're not shown to do except in smashed/wrecked. I took it as being probably the nicest sex they'd had, and Buffy looked nervous rather than bored- perhaps showing that they'd never done it quite like that before. And there is nothing to show he can't touch her- he seems as nervous as she does, as this is the first time she's admitted that he loves her, let alone asked her to say it.

And again, Buffy's never shown to clearly rebuff any sexual tenderness from Spike (sex altogether yes, tenderness, no). The scene in DMP, in which she does seem bored, may be Buffy conceding to SPike's wishes in that way. Or she could just be exhausted from the 16 hour shift she's working.

And it's not shown onscreen that Buffy and Spike mess up his crypt in Gone. He could just be messy. Or been in a rage when he'd gotten back from Buffy's earlier- she rebuffed his attentions pretty hard, and he seemed a bit pissed when he left.

The only time they're shown to be bruised is in Smashed/Wrecked- bite marks aside (biting for a vampire isn't going to be something he complains about.) and there's no proof that most of that didn't occur during their fight- they'd both been really rough with each other during that fight it wouldn't suprise me. And when Xander walks in his hand might be on her hip (I can't remember), but I was watching it last week, and the wideshot before the closeups shows his hand going south of her hip.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to have been a reconciliation from Dead Things in As You Were, but that doesn't mean there never was one, perhaps even post As You Were. But that all happened waaay after Gone.

The fact is, rough sex aside...what Buffy did re:blowjob in Gone is nothing worse to what Spike did to her in the morning after and in the kitchen...he tried seducing her to get what he wanted, in the same way Buffy tries seducing Spike in Gone. You can lay any transgression of hers on her doorstep for screwing her and Spike over, but I don't think you can count this one. As often as she does wrong, I don't think this is an example of sexual assault.

Apr 07 2009 03:41 am   #19Scarlet Ibis
I took it as being probably the nicest sex they'd had, and Buffy looked nervous rather than bored- perhaps showing that they'd never done it quite like that before. And there is nothing to show he can't touch her- he seems as nervous as she does, as this is the first time she's admitted that he loves her, let alone asked her to say it.
I meant the DP sex scene was her being bored.  AYW was where he wasn't touching her.  In the crypt scene, they're laying side by side, and there is just an overt distance and not touching of them. And just because she makes him tell her she loves him, doesn't mean she believes him.  In fact, she says as much in "Entropy," with her "I think it is (real). For you."  His feelings don't count to her cause he doesn't have a soul, which is just...whatever.

may be Buffy conceding to SPike's wishes in that way. Or she could just be exhausted from the 16 hour shift she's working.
What wishes?  She sees him outside, primps her hair, then goes rushing to meet him.  She didn't look tired before he showed up or when he showed up, just when they were having sex. 

And it's not shown onscreen that Buffy and Spike mess up his crypt in Gone. He could just be messy. Or been in a rage when he'd gotten back from Buffy's earlier- she rebuffed his attentions pretty hard, and he seemed a bit pissed when he left.
Yeah...it is.  We see his crypt before Buffy comes through the door, and it's neat and orderly.  Xander shows up, and it's in a shambles.

The only time they're shown to be bruised is in Smashed/Wrecked- bite marks aside (biting for a vampire isn't going to be something he complains about.) and there's no proof that most of that didn't occur during their fight- they'd both been really rough with each other during that fight it wouldn't suprise me.
There's new bruising and scratches in the DT opening scene--they're gone in "Gone," when we see plenty of shots of Spike shirtless.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to have been a reconciliation from Dead Things in As You Were, but that doesn't mean there never was one, perhaps even post As You Were. But that all happened waaay after Gone.
If we don't see it on screen, it doesn't count.  You can fanwank it, sure, but the writers did not show her apologize or allud to her apologizing (in fact, that scene with Tara in OaFA alludes to the exact opposite of an apology taking place) or be apologetic.  Not to mention that she hits him again two episodes later, so hard that he's knocked on his ass and bleeding.  None of that adds up to someone who was repentant for beating him.

As for which is worse or what have you, that boils down to opinion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one ;)
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Apr 07 2009 03:56 am   #20nmcil

yeah, I'd agree that the scene wouldn't work in reverse. A lot of their scenes don't. Which brings up a question, if the only way it's gotten away with it is because Buffy does it.........

If this had played out with Spike being in Buffy's place there would have been holy hell to pay for the character - The writers were very smart about this scene - bring in the mental stress and use of Spike as her sexual toy - the non-reality of love in Buffy's mind vs. the total wanting of love, not just sex, for Spike. The writers also play everything out as comedy but underneath all the comedy is the reality of the very dark place that Buffy has taken them both. BTW - nice phrase this "taken them" someone has used in on previous post, sorry don't know who. Spike giving in to Buffy's sexual insistence is another excellent Mirror World contrast for what is coming in SR - PLUS and this is vital, IMO, because this is a woman and the heroine of the series making the overtly aggressive sexual conduct it is given the light comedy treatment - just as Spike force of sex is given a very harsh sexual rape attempt. Our society does not normally accept that women are sexually abusive - our culture accepts the "truth and idea" that it is the male of our species that is the sexual aggressor.

In "Gone" Buffy is the sexual aggressor and she continues their tragic cycle, with his ultimately giving in to her wants -just as Buffy gives in to his demands - this is their model from what I can make of their relationship. Buffy knows full well that Spike wants her love and that he is taking her body instead - that is why, IMO, her line about "thought this was what you wanted" (sorry for the paraphrase) is such big indication of her denial, both regarding his emotional desire and needs and her part in their entire tragic affair. You need only go back to her scene with Tara, again IMVHO, to see how Buffy wants and needs to turn all the darkness on to Spike - I think she sees herself as the victim. It's an interesting line she tells Spike with the, again I paraphrase, - "why do you always .....: she wants liberty and no rules - get away from her life, Spike wants Love and a real relationship with her.

Perhaps the writers were going with the comedy approach in "Gone" to make "Seeing Red" even more horrible - to emphasis again how wrong and dysfunctional both characters are. Again this is only my opinion, it's a very interesting path they took with "Gone" and this treatment resolved in the heart wrenching tragedy of "Seeing Red."
Spike's Love, like Buffy's Body, is finally and truly "Gone" - all his desperate love and hope and dreams of a real relationship with Buffy was never real, it was always going to vanish because Buffy would never allow his love to be real or even a possibility.

Buffy did not attempt to rape Spike, IMO in the usual application of that term, but that does not mean that she was not playing a very dangerous game that erupts into their final conflagration in "Seeing Red." - Buffy has been mind fucking both of them for most of the season.

"Gone" is like the public mask, even while we have invisible Buffy and Sexual Toy Spike, the mask is ripped off and we have the real horror that is Spike's  Mental Breakdown and his desperate act to speak to Buffy in the only language she ever allowed once she starts using him as a sexual object –

Have to apologize for my very so long run sentences – my writing skills suck big-time.

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Apr 07 2009 04:17 am   #21Scarlet Ibis
Have to apologize for my every so long run sentences – my writing skills suck big-time.
I thought you said all that quite beautifully, actually.  Bravo ;)
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Apr 07 2009 12:41 pm   #22Guest
I have never given much thought to Buffy's way of stopping Spike's protests in Gone! Very unnaturaly for me(considering it damages Spike), I don't think it's a big deal! I really think she was just playing, as always. And here's the catch "as always". In my opinion Buffy was TOTALLY wrong all season. She was such a bitch to Spike that I see her as the perfect "how to use somebody and then throw them away" teacher for Faith! I blame pretty much everything on Buffy and I think this may be just a drop in her ocean of mistakes! I feel like I just HAVE to voice(or write) my opinion about SR and Gone! No, there's nothing fimilar. Where in Gone there reletionship still has SOME hope in SR it has none, where in Gone they are together in SR they're not, where Gone is somehow playful SR is brutal. There's only one thing in common-both are Buffy's fault. I can't and won't blame Spike for SR, I never have! After everything Buffy did to him, after all the mental and physical abuse I think that she deserved to be punished! I'm not saying that she deserved to be raped, she didn't and she wasn't, she was just given a taste of her own medicine, and just a taste on top of that, not the whole bottle like Spike.
Apr 07 2009 12:43 pm   #23spikes_wish
this is a woman and the heroine of the series making the overtly aggressive sexual conduct

What she does in this episode is nothing worse than what Spike does in the kitchen scene and in the morning after scene in wrecked, in which case we can say that if we follow your pattern of this starting sexual aggression between them that eventually climaxes in SR, Spike is equally responsible.

There's new bruising and scratches in the DT opening scene--they're gone in "Gone," when we see plenty of shots of Spike shirtless.

My bad. But SPike like's Buffy hurting him to be fair- "the way you make it hurt in all the wrong places"- plus scratch marks don't really say rough sex to me.
But there's never anything on screen to show that Spike doesn't like it just as much as Buffy, just like there's nothing on screen showing Spike initiating sex tenderly with Buffy, or that he's not allowed to touch her in the scene in AYW- I still take that as being nervous. When they're lying down later I always interpreted that as being Spike watching her asleep and being too afraid to touch her- it's the first time she's ever done anything like this, and he's afraid if he touches her she'll wake up and skedaddle.

Also believe that when Buffy asked Spike to tell her that she loved him, she believed it to be true- or at least wanted it to be true, such was her state of mind at the time

What happened in Seeing Red was a mental breakdown, I agree. But I don't think what happens in this episode is anything close to what Spike does in SR. Buffy gives a blowjob to the man she's just had sex with to convince him to let her stay, without any violence whatsoever, and Spike throws her out with semingly relative ease. Spike restrains his ex whilst she's screaming and crying on the floor, whilst she's hurt- and using the "oh she's strong enough to stop him" really doesn't play here because Spike has her at a disadvantage- she's basically pinned to the floor, whilst hurt- plus there's no way to tell how she reacted mentally to this. Some women in this situation let it happen- doesn't mean they were willing participants or that they subconciously wanted it, and it's that sort of attitude that lets rapists get away with these crimes.

What Spike did in this scene was wrong, and no amount of psychobabble on how it was actually mostly Buffy's fault is going to change that. Spike may have lost himself in that moment, but that doesn't excuse what he did in any way, shape or form, much in the same way that nothing can excuse Buffy's behaviour in Dead Things. Although I believe Spike can be forgiven, it's definitely something that needs to be forgived in the first place.
Apr 07 2009 12:44 pm   #24evangelin
I have never given much thought to Buffy's way of stopping Spike's protests in Gone! Very unnaturaly for me(considering it damages Spike), I don't think it's a big deal! I really think she was just playing, as always. And here's the catch "as always". In my opinion Buffy was TOTALLY wrong all season. She was such a bitch to Spike that I see her as the perfect "how to use somebody and then throw them away" teacher for Faith! I blame pretty much everything on Buffy and I think this may be just a drop in her ocean of mistakes! I feel like I just HAVE to voice(or write) my opinion about SR and Gone! No, there's nothing fimilar. Where in Gone there reletionship still has SOME hope in SR it has none, where in Gone they are together in SR they're not, where Gone is somehow playful SR is brutal. There's only one thing in common-both are Buffy's fault. I can't and won't blame Spike for SR, I never have! After everything Buffy did to him, after all the mental and physical abuse I think that she deserved to be punished! I'm not saying that she deserved to be raped, she didn't and she wasn't, she was just given a taste of her own medicine, and just a taste on top of that, not the whole bottle like Spike.

So sorry for the double post!
Apr 07 2009 12:58 pm   #25spikes_wish
There's only one thing in common-both are Buffy's fault. I can't and won't blame Spike for SR, I never have

As much as Buffy can be blamed for Spike's state of mind it ultimately comes down to self-responsibility. Buffy does not provoke Spike in anyway in this scene, does not signal that she wants him in any way and the whole scene is actually hideously calm. And what Buffy did in any other scenes was completely different to what Spike does here. Spike can in no way mistake this for consent- he just isn't completely aware of what is going on, focused on his own desperation. What Buffy does to Spike is nowhere in the ballpark of being similar to what Buffy does to Spike throughout the season. Spike only is shown to deny her sexually once- in fact he persues her even when she protests. It's just that previously, he's been able to beat her protests down (not physically, in fact he mostly seems to try doing so in the same way Buffy does in Gone, or by talking her round.)

I personally lay a lot of blame at Buffy's door for their relationship- she didn't treat him well, she physically abused him (although only the once, but it was enough), and certainly emotionally abused him (although Spike can be found guilty of reciprocating in some cases. Buffy was generally the instigator though, so I blame her more for this), but in no way is she responsible for any of his actions. In no way is what Spike did to her in SR her fault. It's Spike's- what makes it forgivable is that he knows how wrong he was, to the point of getting a soul (the fact that he goes and gets one proves to me that he woud have been fine without one, but I think only by getting one can he actually show this once and for all). I also think in S7 Buffy suggests that she knows that they way things turned out were mostly her fault (COnversations With Dead People), but it's ridiculous to lay the blame for someone elses actions at her feet.

If that sort of reasoning worked prisons would be a lot emptier these days- most criminals didn't end up there because they wanted to. Bad experiences happen, and people do awful things in reaction. Doesn't mean that they're not culpable for their crimes.
Apr 07 2009 01:39 pm   #26evangelin
As much as Buffy can be blamed for Spike's state of mind it ultimately comes down to self-responsibility

Spike has tones of self-responsibility and we all know it. You just have to look at some of his other reletionships to see that. Buffy has buggered him all year, even longer and still he does not want to hurt her. She just totally messed him up and it was only fair that she'll take the blame!

it's ridiculous to lay the blame for someone elses actions at her feet.

No, when she has provoked this actions I think it's not! If somebody hurts you, you hurt him back. It's stupid and wrong but all people do it. It's not your fault, you're just reacting, the person who has started hurting you is the one to blame! Spike only shows that he's waaaaaaaaay better because he does it unintentionally(I absolutelly agree that he wasn't thinking and if he HAD stopped to think first, he would have never done it. But this is Spike and we all know, from the thinking and the acting, which one he does first!)

If that sort of reasoning worked prisons would be a lot emptier these days

In this case-no! If prison was to be consered Buffy should have been in ever since Dead Things(for the alley thing, not for the murder) and SR would have never happened! Buffy in prison is actually quite the idea...

My point is that she was the reason for it all! He loved her so damn much and he was ready to live with her friendship until she throw it all away! Spike's, if not the perfect, a great partner, he just has to be given a chance and we all know that he wasn't! And please lets not start with season 7 because Buffy'e "gratefulness" is SO strong that I can't stomach it. I mean really, who cares if somebody nearly died to get the one thing that will make his life unbearable for you! Jeez, what's the big deal?!
Apr 07 2009 05:03 pm   #27spikes_wish
Buffy has buggered him all year

I'd like to know how she managed that anatomically :P

In this case-no! If prison was to be consered Buffy should have been in ever since Dead Things

I agree, but if your reasoning let's Spike get off scot free, then there would be a lot less criminals in prison.

No, when she has provoked this actions I think it's not!

She does not provoke him in this scene- if anything the Seeing Red scene is when she is most honest with him all season. There is no shouting or fighting, Spike is not provoked by Buffy. Dead Things is too far away to call on it as provocation, and if you want to use it, then this isn't Spike reacting, that would be Spike getting revenge, which is not what this scene was about.[

quoted]She just totally messed him up and it was only fair that she'll take the blame!
At this point, she was not leading him on in any way. She may have messed him around previous in the season, but since AYW she's been nothing but clear about where she stands with him. This is true again in this scene, and whilst I never think Spike meant to hurt Buffy, he did, and he should be held as responsible for his actions as Buffy should be in Dead Things. IF we use your reasoning, then in fact, Warren and The Scoobies are reponsible for Spike's beating in that alleyway, as they're the ones who originally put her in that situation mentally.

Nothing can excuse what Spike did- the difference in the situation in comparison to other would be rapists is that Spike's actions can be forgiven-  he really didn't mean to hurt her, and he was genuinely devestated over what he'd done- to the point where he damns himself to an existence of guilt to ensure it wouldn't happen again. And I'd like to point out that from Spike's song in OMWF, friendship wasn't enough for him. I don't think Spike would ever have told Buffy this had the demon not come to town, but he does tell her to basically leave him alone. In my opinion, OMWF was the beggining of the end of any comraderie they had that they don't regain til season 7. I don't blame Spike for it though, in this case it's sorta Xanders fault.
Apr 07 2009 06:06 pm   #28Scarlet Ibis
She does not provoke him in this scene
I think what Evangelin was getting at, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, is that Buffy set the course of events in SR in motion.  It was a slow burn to Spike's meltdown, and therefore, makes Buffy responsible.  If you mess someone over repeatedly in some shape or form, and they finally snap on you, well...Yes, Spike is responsible for his own actions, but Buffy made the countdown for that particular explosion--she set him off.  People act (not so) funny under emotional stress, especially if it's emotional stress that'd been building up and up for months.
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Apr 07 2009 08:04 pm   #29evangelin
No, Scarlet Ibis, not wrong at all, actually you said it absolutely right!

friendship wasn't enough for him

I didn't say it was enough, I said that he was ready to live with it, which only shows even more how selfless he was in season 6(and season 7 btw)!

I see your point about SR but you're looking mostly on the night itself and I don't think that all those months of abuse can be forgotten that quickly. As I think from the prison point now, I realise just how many things Buffy has done to Spike to deserve quite the time there. As for the Scoobies and Warren being responsible, I totally disagree. Buffy being abusive and wrong(very wrong) was all about her. Dead Things was what show Buffy being able to be a monster physically. Mentally she was being one ever since Smashed(though in that ep I DO blame Spike for reacting like that to the chip being gone. It's probably the one and only slip that he has made in season 6 because he was simply being an ass.) I was thinking of watching As You Were for some time but I can't make myself because of the way Buffy threats Spike when Riley shows up, remember how Spike acted with his date in Hell Bells?! That was maturality and thinking of the other's feeling(so not Buffy's style, in other words)!

I'm just so tired of hearing that Spike CAN be forgiven. No, he CAN'T be, he simply MUST be! He was a soulless monster, dammit. A loving, caring, good, selfless but still always acted toward as soulless monster and you blame him for snapping at the woman who has threated him like shit way too long and then stopping and immediately regreting it?! Well, I'm sorry but I don't jet it. If after all Angelus had done he had stayed alive...undead and soulless and said that he was ready to try to be a better man, Buffy would have welcomed him with opened arms. But when Spike's trying so hard she only punishes him for trying to be good and tells him that he's evil, soulless, blah, blah, blah! So, yeah, I think it's all Buffy's fault. For not understanding, for not trying, for not helping, for not accepting, for not allowding, for abusing, for lying, for betraying, for not risking the pain for love!   
Apr 07 2009 11:19 pm   #30nmcil
In this case-no! If prison was to be consered Buffy should have been in ever since Dead Things(for the alley thing, not for the murder) and SR would have never happened! Buffy in prison is actually quite the idea...

I know that many viewers will not agree with me but by all rights and by law Buffy would have been behind bars ever since her attempted killing of Faith -

from Spikes_wish:
"Also believe that when Buffy asked Spike to tell her that she loved him, she believed it to be true- or at least wanted it to be true, such was her state of mind at the time"

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on  this one - Buffy absolutely knows that Spike loves her.  Buffy going to Spike during  her Riley-Sam Meltdown is, IMVHO, is all about her desperation and need to escape from her own self imposed misery and emotional needs - Spike is nothing but her Boy Toy-Sex Escape in this episode - you need only follow how quickly she turns on him and goes right back to her physical violence model when it suits her needs. 

I do think anyone here is trying to nullify Spike's  tragic attack on Buffy in SR - but surly we can all agree that She mush share a great deal of the blame and responsibility for what happens in SR.  Off course they both did some very disturbing and violent things to each other  and in my opinion "Dead Things" is the  counterpart to "Seeing Red" - they are both tragic physical manifestations of the nightmares that both these characters are living through.  These episodes are the visualizations and dreamscapes made flesh - their demons finally breaking through and practically destroy them both - as it must be in-order that Buffy and Spike can move on with their healing process and new transformed creations. 

Who is "MORE TO BLAME" I don't think is the real issue - the answer is that THEY BOTH ARE EQUALS in their mistakes and bad choices.  It's just to easy to say that Spike is all to blame for attacking her, that he must take all the burden of responsibility; their relationship was just to complicated for that.  In a world of Black and White we might apply those standards, but they did not function in that environment  -  Hell Spike could have killed her in self defense for her attack in the alley, instead we have him taking on the role of her sacrificial lamb and doing it with love and devotion.  So I say a great big NO to making Spike be the only bad one in Seeing Red - He is totally and indisputably wrong in his attack but Buffy had a big part in all that came down.  After all, Buffy is the one that is in possession of  all important element that sets the standard, even the possibility, of Good - A SOUL.  What is her excuse for being in this relationship?  that she is hurting, that she is depressed, that she hates herself, that she can destroy him, that he is nothing but a disgusting dirty souless vamp?  These are her very words, if these are her "truths" than she had no business whatever to involve herself in this relationship and certainly had no excuse for bringing him into it either. 

In Buffy's World View and by her standards she is the one that has the moral, spiritual, and intellectual capacity to not have used him as she does - She Did Not Love  Him she Was Never Going To Allow or Recognize his Love and yet she went to him whenever she needed him or wanted him.  Sure Spike chased her but she also chased him right back with full understanding and firm belief that this was a very bad relationship for her - a relationship that she was ashamed of.



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Apr 08 2009 05:24 am   #31Eowyn315
This thread is sounding an awful lot like blaming a victim of attempted rape for bringing it on herself, and that's pretty disturbing to me.

It doesn't matter what Buffy did in the past. It doesn't matter how Spike felt. No one deserves to be raped. EVER.
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Apr 08 2009 05:43 am   #32Scarlet Ibis
I think the issue is that some of us don't view Buffy as a legitimate victim here.  It takes away from actual victims, in my opinion.  And no one here (I'm sure) would blame an actual victim for such an unfortunate circumstance.

Also, no one was raped in SR. 
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Apr 08 2009 07:51 am   #33Guest
Also, no one was raped in SR.

Even though Spike never went through with it, the fact that he took it to that place is nearly rape in itself.

Attempted rape is violating, and heartwrenching, and you are NEVER the same. Trust me, i know this. Spike may not have gone through with the rape itself, because he came back to himself, but that doesn't change the damage that it does to Buffy, which we see throughout season 7.  Buffy was a legitimate victim, even though she pushed Spike to that place, he still violated her, and that makes her a victim.
Apr 08 2009 08:13 am   #34Guest
Also, no one was raped in SR.

Even though Spike never went through with it, the fact that he took it to that place is nearly rape in itself.

Attempted rape is violating, and heartwrenching, and you are NEVER the same. Trust me, i know this. Spike may not have gone through with the rape itself, because he came back to himself, but that doesn't change the damage that it does to Buffy, which we see throughout season 7.  Buffy was a legitimate victim, even though she pushed Spike to that place, he still violated her, and that makes her a victim.
Apr 08 2009 09:08 am   #35Scarlet Ibis
"Nearly" is not rape.

Trust me, i know this.
This thread is not about anyone but the character Buffy Summers.  Also, please do not presume to know what has and has not happened in the past of the people commenting on this thread.  Not that it matters, because it's not about us or you; it's about the show.  It's a gray area with a split.  You see it one way, others see it another.  We'll all just have to agree to disagree.
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Apr 08 2009 12:03 pm   #36spikes_wish
"Nearly" is not rape.

That really, really, really doesn't matter.

Attempted rape can still have an awful affect on women- I was a Womens Officer for a year at my university, and the fact is it can have just as bad an effect on someone as actual rape, phsycholgically. It doesn't matter who it was on the receiving end of it- no matter what damage Buffy did to Spike, she is in no way responsible for his actions.

And it is completely legitimate to say that if we lay that responsibility at Buffy's feet, then the alleyway scene can be laid at the feet of Warren and The Scoobies (and, to an extent, Spike himself- I'm sure all that "you came back wrong stuff" didn't help), as she would in no way hate herself were it not for the actions of these characters (primarily The Scoobies).You cannot blame Buffy for what happened- she treated him poorly yes, but at the end of the day Spike is responsible for his own actions- nobody made him have a breakdown, the same way no one made Buffy have a breakdown in Dead Things. They are both equally responsible for what happened, and no matter what happened in the past, nothing can excuse it.

Nothing.

But it can be forgiven- Spike did no have a soul. Spike's state of mind was fragile. Spike did not truly mean to hurt her. And Spike atoned in the most heroic way imaginable. That's why he was forgiven, and rightly so. That doesn't mean he didn't need to be forgiven. Blaming Buffy for something she had no control over is ridiculous.

Buffy was a legitimate victim here in this scene. Nobody ever asks for it, and nobody ever deserves it. Nobody ever brings it upon themselves.

Back to the original point: The blowjob in Gone- how is this any different to Spike in the morning after scene??
Apr 08 2009 12:23 pm   #37evangelin
This thread is sounding an awful lot like blaming a victim of attempted rape for bringing it on herself, and that's pretty disturbing to me. It doesn't matter what Buffy did in the past. It doesn't matter how Spike felt. No one deserves to be raped. EVER.

First as we already pointed out there was no rape, second there was a victum but believe me when I say that it wasn't fimale, third it does matter what Buffy did, you can just wash away someone's mistakes, especially if they're as huge as Buffy's and last, excuse me, but I think that after everything that Spike did for her there's NOTHING that matters more than how he felt

violating, and heartwrenching

These are the exact words I can use to discribe Buffy's actions toward Spike!

Also, no one was raped in SR.

Absolutely! Spike did NOT rape Buffy. Then again no one can say that Buffy didn't beat the shit out of Spike and crushed his heart FOR 3 YEARS!

the damage that it does to Buffy, which we see throughout season 7

And why do I have the feeling that the damage done to Spike slips unnoticed?! And if we're talking about season 7 I really don't think that a NEARLY rape can compare to a sudden soul-having!

he still violated her, and that makes her a victim

Victum is the one thing that I'll never call Buffy Summers. And my personal opinion is that violating someone's heart is a hundred times worse crime than violating someone's body, it's just that the second leaves scars on the outside that everybody looks at with horror while the first one leaves scars on the inside that nobody sees and nobody cares about! And while Buffy may have tons of the second, Spike has quite the collection of the first!
Apr 08 2009 12:32 pm   #38evangelin
Back to the original point: The blowjob in Gone- how is this any different to Spike in the morning after scene??

You probably already realise just how much I hate*cough*dislike Buffy Summers. Surprisingly the blowjob in Gone was really innocent and playful in my eyes and yes, I think it's pretty much the same as Spike's actions in the morning. I really don't see what's the big deal in Buffy trying to stop an argument in nicer way than with a punch in the face for once!
Apr 08 2009 01:10 pm   #39spikes_wish
First as we already pointed out there was no rape,

She didn't say rape, she said attempted rape. Please see my other comments for details on how that doesn't make a lick of difference (especially as we get the impression that the only reason there wasn't a rape, is because Buffy stopped him.). Until either you've been through it, or you've seen someone go through it, it becomes obvious that whether or not they managed to get away does not make a difference psycologically or morally.
And my personal opinion is that violating someone's heart is a hundred times worse crime than violating someone's body, it's just that the second leaves scars on the outside that everybody looks at with horror while the first one leaves scars on the inside that nobody sees and nobody cares about!

Violating someones body leaves very deep, very painful emotional scars- if you really can't see that then you're very delusional. Rape- and attempted rape- is something many women never get over, even with therapy. Breaking someones heart- something most people manage to get over eventually.

And suddenly having a soul and suffering- yes, it's going to be very traumatic, but it's not something Buffy inflicted on him, he sought it out himself. The Rape Attempt was something SPike inflicted on Buffy. Plus, once Buffy realises that he's gotten a soul, the rape attempt isn't brought up again. Yes, she does continue to act 'skittish' around him for a short period of time afterwards, but I don't think that has anything to do with blame. Just because he's changed doesn't mean she can instantly forget and surpress her nervousness.

In reference to Spike not liking rough sex- in Never Leave Me he clearly alludes to having raped girls before. "Do you want to know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?", "To take just enough blood so they still cry when you...'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry." "You got off easy." It's not said in so many words, but it is very clearly implied.


I agree, the blowjob was actually one of Buffy's nicer moments in their relationship which I think is reflected in the tone surrounding it. Buffy's actually happy for once, and her mood reflects her actions. She's acting, for the only time, as a lover would.  
Apr 08 2009 01:20 pm   #40Scarlet Ibis
Until either you've been through it, or you've seen someone go through it, it becomes obvious that whether or not they managed to get away does not make a difference psycologically or morally.
I'm sorry, but that really should have no bearing on the discussion at hand.  This is about Buffy the character alone, and not someone's personal experience or lack thereof.  Please do not try to put the topic on a personal level.  Not to mention you can't possibly speak for all attempted rape and rape victims.  Can we stick to it being about show--which cannot compare to RL, what with the demons and the woman with the strength of ten body builders.  Can we do that, please?

Back to the original point: The blowjob in Gone- how is this any different to Spike in the morning after scene??
Actually, the original point was whether or not the blow job scene was sexual assault to some degree, and not a compare and contrast of any of the other scenes. And in my opinion, once he pushed her away from him at arms length and told her to get her things and go, because he was clearly tired of her games, then yes, it was in fact textbook sexual assault.
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Apr 08 2009 01:27 pm   #41spikes_wish
I'm sorry, but that really should have no bearing on the discussion at hand. This is about Buffy the character alone, and not someone's personal experience or lack thereof. Please do not try to put the topic on a personal level. Not to mention you can't possibly speak for all attempted rape and rape victims.

I'm aware of that- and the experience isn't personal, as I cited earlier, as a Women's Officer at my university you see a lot, and I was just pointing out that you can in no way say that Attempted Rape doesn't affect people.  Even as much as actual rape- so the "oh well he didn't actually" doesn't have much bearing over what he tried to do.

And in my opinion, once he pushed her away from him at arms length and told her to get her things and go, because he was clearly tired of her games, then yes, it was in fact textbook sexual assault.

In that case, Spike is equally guilty of this crime in Wrecked.
Apr 08 2009 01:31 pm   #42Guest
I always had to wonder if he was telling the truth, or telling an easily believed lie because he wanted to be staked - which he really did. He's chained, so he has to goad Buffy into it somehow. She sees through the posturing, that time.

Not to say he didn't do horrible things under Angelus' tutelage......but he doesn't seem interested in that specific type of violence post-Angel leaving the Fanged Four.  'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry sound   sounds exactly like Angelus (who we know got off on defiling your virgins all the time).

CM
Apr 08 2009 01:33 pm   #43Guest
gah - *young virgins

Spike is equally guilty of this crime in Wrecked - sorry, different tone to that scene altogether.

CM
Apr 08 2009 01:38 pm   #44spikes_wish
I would say that he is telling the truth. The only time we see him with a female victim (that aren't Slayers) in when he gives the girl in School Hard to Dru, and with Willow when he finds out he can't bite people. That scene, as Joss said, was played with heavy rape metaphor (straddling her, holding her wrists over her head).

I think he is telling the truth, because he want's to be punished for his crimes, and the easiest way to goad her into killing him would be to bring up the worst of them. The truth is noramlly more effective than any lie one can come up with. And Angelus would definitely have encouraged, if not taught Spike to commit such acts.
Apr 08 2009 01:42 pm   #45Guest
They played it like that because then it's funny when they get into the impotence implications. And biting a girl has always equaled sex, anyway.......big whoop. Obvious metaphor, duh, Joss.

The point is Buffy would have believed he did it as a soulless vamp even if he didn't, because soulless vamps always do the worst she can imagine. And he knows exactly how she thinks.
Apr 08 2009 01:46 pm   #46Scarlet Ibis
sorry, different tone to that scene altogether.
Agree.  Not that the "Wrecked" scene had anything to do with the initial point of the thread...I thought the point was to discuss whether or not Buffy committed an act of sexual assault in "Gone."  And I still maintain that she did IMO.

I was just pointing out that you can in no way say that Attempted Rape doesn't affect people.
Again, this isn't "people."  It's Buffy Summers.  Any real life people or instances are completely irrelevant.  Beyond one lame flash back in "Beneath You," she didn't seem affected by it at all.

ETA:  Also agree on the point that Spike was purposely trying to goad her into staking him before the Bringers showed up.  Guest is right--he knows how she thinks. 
ETAA:  In flashbacks, Spike and Angel admitted that Angel was in it for the destruction of the human being, and Spike was in it for the fight and fun, as if it were "one big party."  In fact, there was a scene with a bleeding out bride that Angelus offers to Spike, and he shrugs it off saying, "that's your spoils, mate."  Not saying he never tried it, just that it wasn't his thing.  Angelus attempted to leave a legacy with William the Bloody (or make a mirror image, as Spike put it), but at the end of the day, what Spike deemed fun was the exact opposite.
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Apr 08 2009 01:52 pm   #47spikes_wish
ETA: Also agree on the point that Spike was purposely trying to goad her into staking him before the Bringers showed up. Guest is right--he knows how she thinks.

Unfortunately there is no way to tell either way.

Again, this isn't "people." It's Buffy Summers. Any real life people or instances are completely irrelevant. Beyond one lame flash back in "Beneath You," she didn't seem affected by it at all.

And when Xander goes into Spike's closet. But that's not the point- the point is, it doesn't matter whether or not he managed to rape her or not. He tried so it's as wrong as if he had. If he had stopped voluntarily then yes, it would have made a difference. But it took her physically stopping it for him to snap out of it. So the "She wasn't raped" has no bearing whatsoever on the wrongness of what Spike did.
Apr 08 2009 01:55 pm   #48evangelin
I was just pointing out that you can in no way say that Attempted Rape doesn't affect people.

Yeah, I can't and that's why I didn't. I just said that Buffy did a lot more damage to Spike than he did to her, both physical and emotional.

And in my opinion, once he pushed her away from him at arms length and told her to get her things and go, because he was clearly tired of her games, then yes, it was in fact textbook sexual assault.

That makes sense but as we see later he DID kick her out(Yey for Spike! I love seeing Buffy get her but kicked-ok, that's not the topic! lol) My point is that this is one of the very few scenes where Spike does put Buffy in her place. He threw her out so her sexual assault(if you decide that there was such thing) didn't change his mind! GO SPIKE!
Apr 08 2009 02:03 pm   #49spikes_wish
Yeah, I can't and that''s why I didn't. I just said that Buffy did a lot more damage to Spike than he did to her, both physical and emotional

To be honest they were both pretty awful to each other emotionally when they were together- it just affected Spike more because he loved her. But up until Seeing Red Buffy definitely had the monopoly on the physical abuse.

And Buffy told Spike she was going, that she didn't want him anymore and that she needed to leave when he dragged her down into his lap and pushd his hands up herskirt. That's as much sexual assault as theblowjob.
Apr 08 2009 02:03 pm   #50Scarlet Ibis
the point is, it doesn't matter whether or not he managed to rape her or not. He tried so it's as wrong as if he had.
Going with that train of thought then, that Spike is guilty of a rape he did not commit, then is Buffy guilty of murder?  Twice, I might add--Ted and Faith.  And she didn't try to atone for either of those.

But it took her physically stopping it for him
Right there--she waited.  She had the power to stop him, shove him clear across the room or out the door at any moment she pleased, which does not make her a victim (to me).  But she didn't.  She held back on her power, which seemed to be in perfect, working order after all of the extreme OoC crying and begging.  I guess she wanted a moment, cause let's face it, that was the only outstanding moment, to justify everything she did to him, where she could prove how awful he was (e.g. the writers wanted a moment to prove "Bad Spike!  Audience, come on--say shame on him and yell "Go Buffy!" even though she's been sucking huge donkey balls most of the season!  This washes it clean, come on!" ) and that he really was just a monster. 

"Ask me again why I could never love you!"  Cause he's soulless and bad and wrong, and every horrible thing she ever did to him don't mean a damn cause he's "evil," and him "attempting to rape her" (when she could have stopped it before it got to that point) only proves that she was right, and not so bad in all her previous actions and encounters with him, and therefore has nothing to be sorry for.  He's evil and not real, and his love is fake cause so is he.  Or potentially evil, like him.  So that's the real reason why she couldn't love him--the fact that he was evil and soulless and totally just proved it in that bathroom.  It had nothing to do with her emotional withholding.  Nope.

*looks down, notices soap box, steps off*
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 08 2009 02:33 pm   #51spikes_wish
Right there--she waited. She had the power to stop him, shove him clear across the room or out the door at any moment she pleased, which does not make her a victim (to me). But she didn't.

It's a bit arrogant to assume how anerson would react in that situation. I don't thinkit was anything to do withwating to show ke up- she crawls away from him for goodness sakes! The position in which they land makes it difficult for her to move, he has her arms pinned and shes hurt. Plus I don't think she, like the audience,ever expected this from Spike. It's not incomprehensible for her to not use her full strength immediately, especially in that position.

"Ask me again why I could never love you!"

Think this is in reference to what she says moments earlier"I couldnver trust you enough for it to be love"- and he has proven her right.

Going with that train of thought then, that Spike is guilty of a rape he did not commit, then is Buffy guilty of murder? Twice, I might add--Ted and Faith.

With Ted- had he not been a robot, she woud have been guilty of manslaughter in the UK. It was not pre-meditated, so yes she would have been. And she would have been found guilty of Attempted Murder with Faith, or at the very least GBH. Spike (in this scene alone) would be found guilty of Attempted Rape.  Buffy would be found guilty of ABH or GBH in Dead Things. Giles and Willow and Anya would be found guilty of murder.

Also- she did feel incredibly guily with Ted up until the point she found out he was a serial killing robot. At that point she's merely protected her mother and any future possible victim of his. With Faith- I think she is sorry for what she's done, but not guilty like she was with Ted- sort o understandably, she did try and murder her boyfriend. Ithink if Faith had died it would have had more of an effect on her. Much in the same way that ifSpike had managed to rape Buffy, he probably wouldn't have come back to Sunnydale at all.

The fact that he tried but Buffy stops him in way excuses him for what he did is the point I'm getting too. You keep saying "oh but he didn't" like it makes it all better somehow. It doesn't. Yes it would have been worse if he had. Yes it means that it is easier to forgive him because he didn't. (I'm referring to the wider audience and Buffy here. I don't think the writers would have been able to buy his character back if he'd succeeded) It doesn't mean he wasn't in the wrong.
Apr 08 2009 02:42 pm   #52Sotia
He tried so it's as wrong as if he had. If he had stopped voluntarily then yes, it would have made a difference.

But he did stop voluntarily. I still think that if he wanted to rape her he'd press on after she threw him half across the room.

I agree that maybe she froze and so didn't fight back from the start, but even after she did, Spike could have--would have, from what I've seen of his persistent character--gone back and tried again.

Almost rape can be extremely traumatizing, especially when the attack comes from someone you trust. This still wasn't almost rape to me. Spike didn't realize what he was doing, and when he did he felt horrible. This was a very bad attempt to get the girl, after having seen that the only way to reach her was through sex.
What can I tell you, baby? I've always been bad...
Apr 08 2009 02:52 pm   #53spikes_wish
Almost rape can be extremely traumatizing, especially when the attack comes from someone you trust. This still wasn't almost rape to me. Spike didn't realize what he was doing, and when he did he felt horrible. This was a very bad attempt to get the girl, after having seen that the only way to reach her was through sex.

Completely agree. I don't for a minute think that he ever meant to hurt her. That doesn't make what happened Buffy's fault- it's still his transgression, but I don't think he ever eant to hurt her.

And agree that he did stop, but I don't think he would have if Buffy hadn't stopped him first. It took her kicking him across the room to snap him back to what he was doing. If he'd continued after that, I think it would be very difficult to be sympathetic towards him. But he din't, which proves that h never intended to hurt her, he just lost control. Doesn't mean i wasn't a rape attempt, and doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
Apr 08 2009 06:25 pm   #54Scarlet Ibis
It's a bit arrogant to assume how anerson would react in that situation. I don't thinkit was anything to do withwating to show ke up- she crawls away from him for goodness sakes! The position in which they land makes it difficult for her to move, he has her arms pinned and shes hurt. Plus I don't think she, like the audience,ever expected this from Spike. It's not incomprehensible for her to not use her full strength immediately, especially in that position.
I don't think it's arrogant to assume how Buffy would react, (cause we are talking about her and no one that's else) given that we've seen her in sticky situations before, in fights with Spike before, and in life or death situations before (which this wasn't).  Her survival instincts kick in--instead of crawling away, it would have been typical for the character Buffy to either knee him in the groin, kick him clear across the room then, or hey, even the standard punch in the face, the last of which is the only consistent form of  "no" she ever communicated with Spike in the first place.  She once told Faith she never felt like a victim until she had her body stolen literally.  Here?  Yes, it was all a bit too easy, and yes, it was out of character from what we've seen from her character for six years.  Arrogant?  No.  Just a logical conclusion from everything we've seen before.

I agree that maybe she froze and so didn't fight back from the start, but even after she did, Spike could have--would have, from what I've seen of his persistent character--gone back and tried again.
Yes--all that did was give him pause.  If his intent had really been to harm her, there was nothing stopping him (but himself) from diving over there and trying again.

which proves that h never intended to hurt her, he just lost control.
And how and why did he come about losing complete and utter control for the first time in regards to her? 

That answer is how those of us on the opposing side drew our conclusions...

Ithink if Faith had died it would have had more of an effect on her. Much in the same way that ifSpike had managed to rape Buffy, he probably wouldn't have come back to Sunnydale at all.
There's nothing that shows she would have felt remorse.  In fact in her mind, it's as if it never even happened, as we're shown on Ats' "Sanctuary."  No, it had pretty much no effect on her.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 08 2009 06:53 pm   #55spikes_wish
I don't think it's arrogant to assume how Buffy would react, (cause we are talking about her and no one that's else) given that we've seen her in sticky situations before, in fights with Spike before, and in life or death situations before (which this wasn't)

We've never seen her in a situation quite like this before- the hyena posession was completely different- Buffy knew there was something incredibly wrong with Xander and that he was acting OOC, so instict quickly took over. In the bathroom scene, Buffy is with someone she cares about, whose she's been intimate with, and whom she trusts to a certain extent ("I could never trust you enough"-implies some trust).

So yes, it is arrogant to assume Buffy would act in a cetain way, and that if she doen't then she must want it i some way- whether that be to "show him up", or because she want's him on some level. Some women wouldn't fight back at all- we know Buffy hates being a victim, nd is strong, so that she manages to push him away, and fights back, is in character. If Buffy hadn't fought back at all though,I wouldn't assume that she thereore 'wanted it'.

Being presented with a sexual violation can invoke very different responses than being presented with a fight-o-the-deat one.

Yes--all that did was give him pause. If his intent had really been to harm her, there was nothing stopping him (but himself) from diving over there and trying again.

I agree- that doesn't mean he didn't try and hurt her, whether he meant to or not. And he wouldn't have stopped and come to that realisation had Buffy not been able to stop him, is my point.

And how and why did he come about losing complete and utter control for the first time in regards to her?

Um, actually Buffy is not at all provoking in this scene. She cannot be held responsible for his actions, even if she did. Nothing excuses rape, attempted or not, no matter your state of mind. Otherwise SPike is partially to blame for the beatings he received in Dead Things- Buffy's state of mind in that scene is a combination of The Scoobies bringing her back, Warren, and Spike telling her she came backwrong. 

 It's similar to the "thin skull" rule in law. If you were to hit someone over their head in order to knock them out,you are still responsible for their death and would go to prison for manslaughter.

There's nothing that shows she would have felt remorse. In fact in her mind, it's as if it never even happened, as we're shown on Ats' "Sanctuary." No, it had pretty much no effect on her.

Yes we do- she is clearly concerned for Faith's welfare after she wakes up from her coma, and when they meet up, Buffy asks her how she is and again tries to pull her back from the path she's on ("it doesn't have to be like this"). In Graduation Day part 2, she also kisses her forehead whilt she's in the hospital. These are not the actions of a remorseless killer. In Sanctuary we are seeing the aftermath of the body swap, in which Faith tricked her boyfriend into sleeping with her, and, pre-body swap, threatened to kill her mother.

Iapologise for the typos, the postingbox is missing out letters, very irritating
Apr 08 2009 07:12 pm   #56Scarlet Ibis
So yes, it is arrogant to assume Buffy would act in a cetain way, and that if she doen't then she must want it i some way- whether that be to "show him up", or because she want's him on some level. Some women wouldn't fight back at all- we know Buffy hates being a victim, nd is strong, so that she manages to push him away, and fights back, is in character. If Buffy hadn't fought back at all though,I wouldn't assume that she thereore 'wanted it'.
Never said she "wanted it," but she must have wanted on some level to be victimized to assuage her of any guilt in regards to their un-relationship (e.g. the writers wanted to showcase her as the victim for the first time ever in order to win over the audience), which is again, OoC and no, it is not arrogant for me to think so.  Just because I disagree with your assessment and vice versa, does not make me arrogant.

that doesn't mean he didn't try and hurt her, whether he meant to or not. And he wouldn't have stopped and come to that realisation had Buffy not been able to stop him, is my point.
He didn't try to hurt her, he inadvertently hurt her.  Two different things.  And the second half is completely moot since Buffy was able and did stop him.

actually Buffy is not at all provoking in this scene.
Jeebus H--it's not her in the scene itself--it's everything else she did leading up to that.

Otherwise SPike is partially to blame for the beatings he received in Dead Things
He's only to blame in the sense that he was trying to help her and didn't fight back.  The rest of the reasons you gave are utter rubbish, since we don't ever see her punching in Willow or Xander's face, who were most responsible for bringing her back in the first place.  Or Warren who was the one who made her think she killed Katrina.  The DT alley scene happened because to Buffy, Spike doesn't count.

In Sanctuary we are seeing the aftermath of the body swap, in which Faith tricked her boyfriend into sleeping with her, and, pre-body swap, threatened to kill her mother.
Doesn't matter--she still made a statement to the effect that in her mind, the knifing of Faith never happened, which is ludicrous.  She's entitled to her anger, certainly, but to pretend as if she never tried to kill anyone?  Okay...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 08 2009 07:46 pm   #57Spikez_tart
I have always hated the (attemped) rape scene in SR, but now I see, from the endless wrangling that it inspires, that it may have been Joss's finest moment. 

tone of her voice and the ear thing both suggest this- even if it was partly the whole almost getting caught thing fueling her - Does Buffy want to get caught?  What would she expect to happen if Xander found out at that moment?  The group would howl and carry on and she'd have an excuse to stop her bad behavior?  In Normal, she does tell Dawn that she's sleeping with a vampire she hates.  She's already told Tara, so maybe she's ready to go public in some big messy way. 

She had the power to stop him, shove him clear across the room or out the door at any moment she pleased - Buffy is a trained fighter.  Yes, she's not in top form and she isn't expecting Spike to attack her, but scary things are always jumping out at her and she could have recovered faster and knocked him on his ass.  Could it be that she regrets having physically abused him in the past and for once is trying to show some restraint? 

Ted and Faith - Faith was pretty much a premeditated murder attempt on Buffy's part.  She grabs a weapon and goes looking for her.  Since Ted attacked Buffy first, it would probably be considered self defense or accidental.  If the cops believed you, of course, which they don't want to because Buffy has no marks on her face.  Faith's first foray into murder, the Mayor's assistant, was an accident really.  It's hard to see the cops believing she just accidentally shoved a wooden stake in the guy's guts. 

The blowjob - Okay, doesn't a woman have the right to initiate sex with her lover?  Sure, they're having a little tiff, but he didn't pick his pants up off the floor, did he?  Buffy seems to be trying to make up for their spat by showing him that she does desire him (at least that).  We don't know when Spike actually kicks her out either.  It could have been right away or three hours later. 

Part of the Spuffy relationship is to show how changed Buffy has become in her sexual comfort level.  With Angel, she's a shy, uncertain virgin.  With Parker, she's enthusiatic and probably not skilled, but emotionally vulnerable to his line of crap.  He says she has stamina.  Not much of a compliment.

With Riley, she's starting to come into her own.  We never get the sense though that Riley is very good at satisfying her or at all adventurous.  We never see Buffy give the Enormous Hall Monitor a blow job.  It's nothing but straight up sex, Riley on top as far as I remember.  She comments once that having sex with him was "relaxing."  She leaves bed to go kill vampires, which seems to be more satisfying to her than he was.  The only time he cuts it is when they're trapped in the haunted frat house.  Lame.  In fact, I had a head slap moment the other day.  Riley does not know how to dance!  The first time he tries to approach her on a romantic basis, he states that he doesn't dance.  Given Spike's statements to Buffy re "dancing" I think we can conclude that Riley is a flop in the sack.  (Are his trips to the vamp side of town really a metaphor for trying to sharpen up those manly sexual skills?) 

With Spike, Buffy is finding out what she really wants, really likes, really needs, physically.  She can explore the dark sexual side with a partner who she doesn't have to worry every moment about hurting.  The real problem is that Buffy doesn't want to admit that she likes kinky sex and that she is "letting him do those things to me."  But she does like those things - they have sex with fighting, sex in abandoned buildings, sex on the floor, sex after tearing up Spike's crypt, almost phone sex, (in her dream) sex with Buffy on top and with Spike handcuffed, sex with spatulas, sex in the kitchen, sex in the bed, naked sex, clothed sex, sex in public in the alley at her job,  sex in public again outside in front of her house and apparently on the ground, sex when they're mad at each other and sex when they're happy - sex sex and more sex until Buffy can't sit down without making a face of pain.  And, it's Spike and only Spike (God's gift) who gives Buffy this. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 08 2009 08:19 pm   #58spikes_wish
Never said she "wanted it," but she must have wanted on some level to be victimized to assuage her of any guilt in regards to their un-relationship (e.g. the writers wanted to showcase her as the victim for the first time ever in order to win over the audience), which is again, OoC and no, it is not arrogant for me to think so. Just because I disagree with your assessment and vice versa, does not make me arrogant.

I agree that the writers wanted to show it in a certain way (although I disagree on the easoning why- they wanted to show Spike at his worst so he'd toddle off and get his soul), but if we're forgetting all about the writers etc and taking this merely in the context of the show, then you cannot assume Buffy should have been able to fight back immediately, and the fact that she doesn't means that she necessarily wanted to free herself of guilt or whatever and is not necessarily out of character. Buffy's never been presented with a situation like this- I've covered why the Hyena posession was different.

And the second half is completely moot since Buffy was able and did stop him.

It's not completely moot-  your argument is that he stopped- but it took Buffy stopping him for him to snap back to reality. He did not stop all by himself. It took a physical shock to allow him to realise what he would have done.

The DT alley scene happened because to Buffy, Spike doesn't count.

I disagree . It's not that Spike didn't count- it's that he's telling her e loves her at the point she feels she deserves it least. The point she starts lashing out is directly after he tells her he doesn't love her. I think she's also feeling inferior to him in some way- he's spent a good part of the season telling her how alike they are, yet Spike loves her when she fails to feel anything, which makes her feel even more of a monster. Spike's an "evil souless thing" , yet he's full of feeling whilst she feels barren.  

It's not that he doesn't count; it's that he's not supposed to.

He's only to blame in the sense that he was trying to help her and didn't fight back. The rest of the reasons you gave are utter rubbish

He's as much to blame as Buffy is in Seeing Red (maybe less, as there are other factors screwing Buffy up). If you reason that Spike's state of mind is dire because of Buffy, then Buffy's is fairly screwed cause of Spike. And he's not always so helpful- telling her that she belongs in the dark, that she came back wrong and that she's somesort of demon all contribute to Buffy's mental state. Although I can understand to a certain extent why Spike said them, the fact is they stll affected (effected?) her. And none of the Scoobies or Warren have asked Bufy to lay it all on them, like Spike does (I actually think this is a really sweet moment for Spike- he knows how she functions in a way Riley never could).

Hoever, neither of them are any less blameless for their actions- no one made them lose control, their actions were their own. They're just more understandable.

Doesn't matter--she still made a statement to the effect that in her mind, the knifing of Faith never happened, which is ludicrous. She's entitled to her anger, certainly, but to pretend as if she never tried to kill anyone? Okay...

True, she never got upset over Faith the way she did Katrina- mind you, K was innocent as far as Buffy was concerned and Faith was far from it. I think this was just a way for the writers to show how screwed up Buffy had become. But there is some evidence that she feels remorseful for what she did to Faith pre-Sanctuary.
Apr 08 2009 08:22 pm   #59spikes_wish
The blowjob - Okay, doesn't a woman have the right to initiate sex with her lover?

Agree. Spike does similar things throughout their relationship and no-ones getting down on him about it.
Apr 08 2009 09:27 pm   #60Guest
The one allusion to Buffy and Riley having more fun than missionary is at the end of season 4, before the Scoobies sit down to watch the movie they fall asleep for. Buffy and Riley are majorly flirtatious, wanting alone time because there hasn't been time lately, and Buffy promises "outfits" when he gets back. Implication of kink right there.......they just never wanted to show it, for some reason.

CM
Apr 08 2009 09:37 pm   #61nmcil
There's nothing that shows she would have felt remorse. In fact in her mind, it's as if it never even happened, as we're shown on Ats' "Sanctuary." No, it had pretty much no effect on her. Yes we do- she is clearly concerned for Faith's welfare after she wakes up from her coma, and when they meet up, Buffy asks her how she is and again tries to pull her back from the path she's on ("it doesn't have to be like this"). In Graduation Day part 2, she also kisses her forehead whilt she's in the hospital. These are not the actions of a remorseless killer. In Sanctuary we are seeing the aftermath of the body swap, in which Faith tricked her boyfriend into sleeping with her, and, pre-body swap, threatened to kill her mother.

There are many viewers that think this scene was little more than a way to try a "cleansing" of her premeditated attack on Faith - she stabs Faith and her intent was to feed her to Angel/Angelus. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 08 2009 10:44 pm   #62nmcil

Here is the script - to me  the entire point of the scene is much for than  the attempted rape - had the writer's wanted the physical violence to be the primary point they would have had Spike try to continue his attack.  But this scene goes back all the way to Angel/Angelus, to the history of emotional trauma and abuse from both parties, to the emotional trauma that Spike has finally succumb to as well as Buffy's season long emotional trauma from her resurrection.  The physical attack is the finale of all this shit that Spike and Buffy have committed against each other.   The dialogue speaks to Buffy's unrealistic expectations and model that she works from - Spike also has his unrealistic model, his expectations and belief that Buffy does feel love for him - combine all of this elements with  their history and model of their destructive relationship and it is not difficult to see how Spike goes back to the model of physical connection and violence.  DOES IT EXCUSE HIS ATTACK - NO.  But his attack is not the only important theme of the scene and I don't think that we should separate his attack from the previous action set down in the season. 

I have read that the writer went back to real life experience for this "desperation and physical attack" scenario - the emotional crisis and complete breakdown of the normal control mechanism is of vital importance in the scene and the plot device that is used to send Spike to the African caves.  So Yes, attempted rape is horrible and utterly inexcusable - there is no question that Spike is wrong to attempt to force her to have sex with him, to make her feel again all the passion and desire that she used to take from him. 

Don't we lose something vital and powerful and all important about their journey and transformation if Spike's  attempted rape becomes the defining act of his character or Buffy's brutal attack in the alley the only thing that we judge her by?  We cannot separate their relationship arc, its all one tragic and great  story.



(Buffy's in a bathrobe, running a bath)

SPIKE (concerned) Are you hurt? you're not moving so well...

BUFFY: Get out.

SPIKE: We have to talk.

BUFFY: I really don't.

SPIKE: Well, this isn't just about you -- as much you'd like it to be.

BUFFY: You spoke. I listened. Now leave.

SPIKE: (soft, sincere) I'm sorry. Not that it matters anymore. But I needed you to know that.

BUFFY: Why?

SPIKE: 'cause I care about you.

BUFFY: Then you might want to try the not sleeping with my friends.

SPIKE: I didn't go to Anya for that. I was looking for a spell.

BUFFY: You were going to use a spell on me?

SPIKE: It wasn't for you! *I* wanted something -- anything to make this feeling stop. I just wanted it to stop! (a beat, soft) You should have let him kill me.

BUFFY: I couldn't do that.

SPIKE: Why?

BUFFY: You know why.

SPIKE: Because you love me.

BUFFY: No! I don't.

SPIKE: Why do you keep lying to yourself?

BUFFY: How many times...!? I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never *trust* you enough for it to be love.

SPIKE: (scoffing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy! Great love is wild and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

SPIKE: I know you feel like I do. You don't have to hide it anymore.

BUFFY: Spike, please, stop this --

SPIKE: Let yourself feel it...

BUFFY: No...

SPIKE: You love me...

BUFFY: Oh, no, stop it! Spike, stop. Ow! What are you doing? Ow!

SPIKE: Let it go... Let yourself love me... Buffy, Buffy...

BUFFY: (over) Spike, no, ow, I'm hurt, stop!

(commercial)

SPIKE: I know you felt it... When I was inside you...

BUFFY: Don't... please, plaese Spike, please don't do this, please don't do this...

SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy... I'm gonna make you feel it...

BUFFY: STOP!

(sends him flying)

BUFFY: Ask me again why I could never love you!

SPIKE: Buffy, my god, I didn't --

BUFFY: Because I stopped you. Something I should have done a long time ago.


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 08 2009 11:13 pm   #63FetchingMadScientist
oh boy...How many tines?  Well, I said this in another thread and I still believe it so I'll post it here too:

the entire sixth season, the victim was Spike.

 


"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Apr 08 2009 11:53 pm   #64Spikez_tart
Ah - no matter how much you obsess, there's always something.  I will say that it sounds like there weren't any outfits in the past, it's a promise for future sexy fun and an indication that Spike is right - she does want some monster in her man:

RILEY
: Nah, I just like it when you owe me favors.
BUFFY: Well, this earns you a big favor. There could be outfits.


SR - Taking the rape scene out of the plot and into the metaphoric, Spike (Id) tries to force himself into/onto Buffy (ego).  That nasty subconcious where dreams and kinky sex and darkness keeps bubbling up to the surface, no matter how much the good girl wants to keep it shoved down.   He tries to get her to admit that she loves him (loves her whole self).  When Buffy beats him up in DT, she's not talking about Spike being an evil, soulless thing so much as she's talking about herself and her subconscious.  

She beats herself up for having these dark desires, which interestingly enough are pretty normal, a thing she always claims she wants to be.  When she says she wants a normal life, she means she wants to be connected only with Angel (superego and pain in the b***) where she can be pure and sweet and not have all that nasty naughty stuff bothering her.  We never see Angel and Buffy doing anything kinky, although I'm sure Angelus, former partner of Darla, knows it all. 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Apr 09 2009 12:15 am   #65spikes_wish
NMCIL- That was exactly what I was trying to convey all along. That nothing excuses his behaviour, and he is responsible, but because of his fragile state of mind at the time, due to Buffy, we can UNDERSTAND and FORGIVE him. His reaction and atoning afterwards also lend towards this.

Don't we lose something vital and powerful and all important about their journey and transformation if Spike's attempted rape becomes the defining act of his character or Buffy's brutal attack in the alley the only thing that we judge her by? We cannot separate their relationship arc, its all one tragic and great story.

Completely agree- I just got fed up with the insinuation that somehow Buffy brought the attack on herself, or that she deserved it somehow, or that she is somehow responsible for Spike's actions. They are both awful acts commited by both parties, and each of them contribute to both, but at the end of the day, they are responsible for themselves. I don't wish to seperate entirely the past traumas of their relationship to what happens in SR but, just to say that you cannot blame eithers transgressions for the others actions. They merely help us understand their actions.

FMS

the entire sixth season, the victim was Spike.

But he wasn't exactly unwilling, was he? And he too causes some pretty awful emotional trauma for Buffy, so he is not blameless for how their relationship turns out.

In fact, calling him a victim makes him seem...impotent somehow. It's not really giving him enough credit as a character. He did what Buffy wanted 'cause he wanted it too, he thought it would get him what he *ultimately* wanted (Buffy). So lets not act as if it was such a trial for Spike to have lots of sex with Buffy.

There are many viewers that think this scene was little more than a way to try a "cleansing" of her premeditated attack on Faith - she stabs Faith and her intent was to feed her to Angel/Angelus.

So she's trying to cleanse herself for doing something wrong...and? Don't all people who feel guilt want to be forgiven for selfish reasons (so they no longer have to feel guilty). Buffy may have tried to kill Faith, but to say that she wasn't remorseful for her actions is shown differently in her actions. She maybe just isn't as remorseful as we think she should be. Kissing her on the forehead may be for Buffy, but the fact she felt that she needed to be cleansed says to me that she knew she'd done something that required a good cleansing.

  We never see Angel and Buffy doing anything kinky

To be fair, I couldn't see them doing anything kinky for her first time, and after that it was all "ooo, soul" so it's not surprising that they never do anything kinky. I think Buffy was more worried over her kinky sex partner(which, in itself provides its own kink), and the darkness of their relationship- it's not that she had kinky fantasies, it's that they were playing out with someone she didn't love and knew she was using. I think she's more worried about who the dark desires involve than the desires themselves.
Apr 09 2009 12:17 am   #66spikes_wish
Bringing everything back round to the point:

Are we decided on whether Buffy's being a little bit rapey or if she was just seducing her lover in the blowjob scene? And if she is, are we saying Spike is guilty of the same crime in Wrecked, and in the kitchen scene?
Apr 09 2009 12:31 am   #67nmcil
All the Ugly, horrible, mean, nasties that people, and the Buffyverse characters too, want and need to hide come out to play in Season Six -

As far as how I see this season -  it's one great big huge nightmare cycle that escapes out into Buffy's self imposed reality - Buffy, just like most of her real world viewers, can piss and moan and make all kinds of excuses for bad choices and the results of all the crap that comes with them.  Change your ideas and models for your misery and you change the model of how you see the world around you. 

I LOVE Season Six - to me it's the most fascinating and best stuff in the entire series -


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2009 12:35 am   #68Guest
I've noticed how people keep saying that Spike "attempted" to rape Buffy.

No: someone attempting to rape a woman has made the conscious decision to rape their victim and, this is the big point: THEY DON'T STOP. I would absolutely love if all would-be rapists just stopped and ran away after the woman kicked them back one time. But no, in real life, rapists just get more violent and try that much harder.

The more accurate phrase is that Spike nearly raped Buffy.

Action: yes.
Intent: no.

The two were involved in a very violent, very twisted farce of an affair in which Buffy frequently said "no" when she really meant "yes". The sad fact is that women have been in violent role-playing relationships in which it gets too real for them and they end up really been raped because all of a sudden "no" really means "no" and they never had the common sense to agree on a f-cking safe word.

Remember Olaf's hammer? Spike couldn't even lift it off the ground but Buffy was wielding it with ease: Buffy was far stronger than Spike and could have ended their, and I use the term loosely,  "relationship" at any time.

When I watched the bathroom scene, I was pissed that Buffy was playing the "victim" like she did before she kicked Spike back and he realized what he was doing because I knew she was full of sh-t. She could have been paralyzed instead of just having an "hurt" lower back and that wouldn't have affected her arms in the slightest! And yet, she's suddenly weak as a kitten against mean ol' monster "Mr. Rapist"

I, and I think anyone who's had to deal with a real victim of rape, found that entire thing insulting, especially when they had Buffy immediately turn around and (try to) go to Spike to get him to babysit her younger sister. She obviously still trusted Spike after what happened in that bathroom, she didn't even bother warning Dawn that Spike was, at very least, unstable (thanks to her using him as a sextoy, screwing with his mind and beating the sh-t out of him for the past few months).

In my opinion, the whole "Attempted Rape" idea was the writers' appalling attempt to try and get everyone to forget how much of a monster Buffy was to Spike. As if him "attempting" to rape her somehow retroactively justified Buffy's past abuse of Spike.

The more I analyze it, the more I think the writers are full of sh-t and none of them have ever to help a friend or loved one who'd been raped. They wrote themselves into a wall and used a vile means to try to make up for what they had Buffy doing to Spike. Personally I go with this conclusion because, otherwise, Buffy comes off very badly.

-Matt
Apr 09 2009 12:41 am   #69Eowyn315
That nothing excuses his behaviour, and he is responsible, but because of his fragile state of mind at the time, due to Buffy, we can UNDERSTAND and FORGIVE him.
Yes. That.

I just got fed up with the insinuation that somehow Buffy brought the attack on herself, or that she deserved it somehow, or that she is somehow responsible for Spike's actions.
Exactly, because as much as people might try to remove this scene from the real world, those are the EXACT same excuses that real rapists give for why what they did wasn't wrong. It's disturbing to me to hear those horrible sentiments echoed in this conversation, even about a fictional character.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 09 2009 12:44 am   #70nmcil
We never see Angel and Buffy doing anything kinky

Sorry, but the first thing that I thought about is "The Kinky"  of the grown man/vamp Angel/Angelus getting all I Love Her when he sees a lollipop sucking YOUNG TEENAGE GIRL sitting on the school ground steps -

LOL - now that's what I call KINKY -

Now I off to see the real world KINK at MSNBC -

What was the original question of this thread again?  So did this alleged Blowjob actually take place or did Spike send her packing?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2009 12:57 am   #71Guest
Sorry, but the first thing that I thought about is "The Kinky" of the grown man/vamp Angel/Angelus getting all I Love Her when he sees a lollipop sucking YOUNG TEENAGE GIRL sitting on the school ground steps - LOL - now that's what I call KINKY -

15 year old Buffy dolled up to be the epitome of an innocent naive little schoolgirl sucking a lollipop while a fully grown man drives up and suddenly decides that he's in love with said girl...

that's what I call "pedophile".
Apr 09 2009 01:09 am   #72spikes_wish
The more accurate phrase is that Spike nearly raped Buffy.

As far as canon goes, it's pretty apparent that Spike would have raped Buffy if he han' stopped him and snapped him out of reality- he therefore did not stop of his on accord. Please see my earlier posts on the thin skull rule in regards to intent.

The more accurate phrase is that Spike nearly raped Buffy.
He nearly raped her, because he was attempting to rape her.

was pissed that Buffy was playing the "victim" like she did before she kicked Spike back and he realized what he was doing because I knew she was full of sh-t. She could have been paralyzed instead of just having an "hurt" lower back and that wouldn't have affected her arms in the slightest! And yet, she's suddenly weak as a kitten against mean ol' monster "Mr. Rapist"

I dn'tthink you can ever assue how someone will react in a situation where someone tries to violate her body. When Buffy realises how serious the situation has become, he prtty much has her hands immobolised.

This is also the mentality many rapists use n their defence "she didn't try and stop me"- this doesn't mean they didn't rape someone. I think it's a credit to Buffy's character that she is able to push him away at all.

, and I think anyone who's had to deal with a real victim of rape, found that entire thing insulting, especially when they had Buffy immediately turn around and (try to) go to Spike to get him to babysit her younger sister. She obviously still trusted Spike after what happened in that bathroom

I agree. On the other hand, Buffy may understand why Spike did tried to rape her, and that he never meant to hurt her.   Or she underestimates exactly how unstable Spike is at this point, I don't know. I think i is OOC for Buffy to have her would-be rapist keep an eye on her sister, and Xander is right to tell her not to let him.

Exactly, because as much as people might try to remove this scene from the real world, those are the EXACT same excuses that real rapists give for why what they did wasn't wrong. It's disturbing to me to hear those horrible sentiments echoed in this conversation, even about a fictional character.

Thanks Eowyn, I'm glad I'm not talking to a brick wall. Or that I'm not th only one talking to it.

nmcil- we're discussing whether Buffy's blowjob (or start of one) conts as sexual assault as Spike's just told her to leave. I can't understand hw it can bepresented in that way, especially as Spike initiates most of their sexual encounters in the same way and no-ones getting down on him about it (the balcony scene, the kitchen scene, the morning after scene). I think this is a case of over-hating Buffy and over-sympathising Spike.

I agree that Buffy is a character that has many hateable qualities in this series, and Spike has many sympathetic ones, but I don't think Buffy giving Spike a blowjob to get him in the mood is in anyway immoral.
Apr 09 2009 01:10 am   #73Eowyn315
So did this alleged Blowjob actually take place or did Spike send her packing?
There's really no way to tell. Spike doesn't tell Buffy no or stop or any other refusal of consent before the scene ends, so one of three things could've happened. First, Spike could've let Buffy go on with the blowjob, and then kicked her out when she was finished, in which case it would be completely consensual. Second, Spike could've told Buffy to stop, she complied, and then left as Spike had asked her to. Or third, Spike could've told Buffy to stop, Buffy refused and continued giving Spike a blowjob, and Spike either forcibly made her stop or submitted to her unwillingly. Only the third option would constitute sexual assault, but as I said, we have no idea what happened after the scene ended, so there's no way to tell.

Thanks Eowyn, I'm glad I'm not talking to a brick wall. Or that I'm not th only one talking to it.
Heh, it often seems that way, which is why I haven't even bothered to get into the actual details of the scene. There's really no point in trying to change anyone's mind on that scene; the views are far too strongly held.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 09 2009 01:37 am   #74Guest
I maintain that if Spike had consciously wanted to rape Buffy he wouldn't have stopped like he did. He wanted to continue their twisted affair, an affair in which Buffy's often said "no" and she often "struggled" with him.

I dn'tthink you can ever assue how someone will react in a situation where someone tries to violate her body. When Buffy realises how serious the situation has become, he prtty much has her hands immobolised. This is also the mentality many rapists use n their defence "she didn't try and stop me"- this doesn't mean they didn't rape someone. I think it's a credit to Buffy's character that she is able to push him away at all.

It's the very fact that in real life women often CANT fight back against their attacker that is my point. Buffy had already proven with Olaf's hammer that she was significantly stronger than Spike. With that in mind (and the fact that Buffy's adrenaline would have skyrocketed, making her even stronger than before), Buffy having her hands "immobilized" like that by Spike is along the lines of a 10 year old girl "immoblizing" a grown man by hanging onto his arms: it's not going to happen unless it's intentionally allowed.

Again, I call bullsh-t on the writers' part. They tried to turn Buffy the Vampire Slayer into an ordinary woman for five minutes in order to make her the victim and Spike the monster.

The entire thing was written and handled very badly. If Spike wanted to rape Buffy, he wouldn't have stopped. Buffy was more than strong enough to throw Spike through that wall (with her "immobilized" hands) Instead, she just manages to relativley softly kick him back a mere two feet.

And Buffy certainly would never have still trusted Spike with her little sister if she thought there was even a chance that Spike might hurt her too. Even the barest attempt of rape is deeply violating and shatters trust, so why would Buffy still trust Spike? Like I said, I blame the writers.

-Matt
Apr 09 2009 01:54 am   #75spikes_wish
maintain that if Spike had consciously wanted to rape Buffy he wouldn't have stopped like he did. He wanted to continue their twisted affair, an affair in which Buffy's often said "no" and she often "struggled" with him.

I am so fed up of answering this same question. I KNOW HE DID NOT MEAN TO HURT HER, THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE WASN'T AT FAULT.
And if you watch the scene THERE IS ABSOLOUTELY NO WAY SPIKE CAN MISTAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS. THIS IS MORE THAN SAYING NO AND PUSHING AWAY.SHE CRALS AWAY FROM IM, AND IS CRYING.

It's the very fact that in real life women often CANT fight back against their attacker that is my point. Buffy had already proven with Olaf's hammer that she was significantly stronger than Spike

That's not the only reason some women don't fight back. As a Womens Officer at my university, I've dealt with cases like this- they freeze up, or they know their attacker, and it never occurs to them that he would hurt them. By the timeBuffy even realises how serious this is, he's holding her wristsw hich she does try and free herself from. Also, whose to say Buffy wouldn't have kicked him through the wall if she hadn't been hurt, or if she'd had a better angle.

I am fed up of everyone using the excuse "But she could fight back" as an excuse for Spike, insinuating that its somehow Buffy's fault that it came to Spike trying to rape her.

And I do think it's wrong for Buffy to send Dawn to Spike's- but perhaps whats happened hasn't sunk in yet, or she's more worried about her murderous best friend hurting Dawn and knows Spike isstrong enough to protect her, and that Dawn trusts him. Or maybe she's already forgiving him. I don't presume to know how someone might react to just having been nearly raped by someone whom they care about. And you can say what you like about the writing- it's still the actions of the characters. I'd quite like to ask Joss/MAudlin how they justified that part of the episode, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance.

I also disagree about the reasonin of he writers- they wanted to take Spike to the darkst place imaginable so he'd have motivation to get his sol and they could continue their story arc-much the same reasoning for killing Tara so Willow's character would girl all black-eyed baddie.


 
Apr 09 2009 02:35 am   #76Guest
First of all, I'm not trying to exonerate Spike. I agree with you: although Spike didn't intend to hurt Buffy, he very well could have raped her had he not realized that, this time, Buffy wasn't just playing and, this time, she was really trying to stop him. 

I am so fed up of answering this same question. I KNOW HE DID NOT MEAN TO HURT HER, THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE WASN'T AT FAULT. And if you watch the scene THERE IS ABSOLOUTELY NO WAY SPIKE CAN MISTAKE THIS FOR WHAT IT IS. THIS IS MORE THAN SAYING NO AND PUSHING AWAY.SHE CRALS AWAY FROM IM, AND IS CRYING.

The fact is that we have no idea exactly how kinky Spike and Buffy got in their role playing. Look on the internet, there are rape-fantasy videos that look "absolutely" like rape to the normal person but, in reality, they are nothing but fantasy and kink.

I'm not going to mention names but I have a female friend into that sort of stuff. Several years ago, I was house-sitting for them one weekend and they called and asked me to record the game for them. I found an unmarked "blank" tape and put it in the VCR to check it so I didn't accidently record over something important and suddenly found myself watching one of my best friends being "raped" by the guy she was currently on vacation with and, at the time, there was no doubt in my mind that it was rape. I'm not a normally violent person but her now-husband is extremely fortunate that one of our mutual friends knew about her fetish and talked me down. Needless to say, even seeing Buffy crying and pleading and crawling away, I'm very reluctant to say anything is "ABSOLUTELY" rape without taking in all the details and in Buffy's case, those details include Buffy's vastly superior strength over Spike and her taking Dawn to Spike's place just a couple hours afterwards.

That's not the only reason some women don't fight back. As a Womens Officer at my university, I've dealt with cases like this- they freeze up, or they know their attacker, and it never occurs to them that he would hurt them.

I know know those kinds of cases but Buffy DIDN'T freeze up, she was fighting back. It wasn't that Buffy "could" fight back but didn't: she was fighting him, trying to get him to stop. But "somehow" the supernaturally strong Vampire Slayer is as weak as an ordinary woman against a stronger attacker. (That's directly opposite to the already established fact that Buffy was much stronger than Spike).

-Matt
Apr 09 2009 03:13 am   #77spikes_wish
The fact is that we have no idea exactly how kinky Spike and Buffy got in their role playing

This is just fanwanking- everything we're shown in canon is merely Buffy having to be persuaded, not forced. Nothing on screenever alludes to them indulging in rape fantasy, so you can't say he might have mistaken this for a game they might have played before. If it's not canon, it doesn't count. As far as canon is concered, Spike cannot mistake this for anything else they've indulged in.

And if anyone brings up Buffy not using her superstrength immediately again I am going to accuse them of using a rapists reasoning.

Buffy may not have frozen, but you cannot assume to know how any woman might react in that situation. And in this scene it is arguable that Spike has the upper hand-this is the last thing Buffy was expecting, and she's injured (and you can use examples of whatever oher incident Buffy recovers from qickly, it isclearly set up theat Buffy's injury is costing her).

You know what? It IS rapist reasoning to assume that because Buffy didn't give her full strengthinto the struggl immediately, she somehow wanted it, and it's highly disturbing that anyone would even think of using it as an excuse for SPpike. She could have kicked him off before it had even gotten that ar and it still won't excuse what Spike did.

He can be forgiven for his actons, yes,and he is. But you cannot blame anyone but him for them. To try and do so is sort of twisted and implies that it's Buffy's fault somehow.
Apr 09 2009 04:32 am   #78Guest
You know what? It IS rapist reasoning to assume that because Buffy didn't give her full strengthinto the struggl immediately, she somehow wanted it, and it's highly disturbing that anyone would even think of using it as an excuse for SPpike. She could have kicked him off before it had even gotten that ar and it still won't excuse what Spike did.

You misunderstand, look at my previous posts: I'm not trying to say it's Buffy's fault or Buffy wasn't really trying to fight Spike off because as I stated Buffy WAS really trying to fight him off. But apparently the rules of the Buffyverse changed for those five minutes.

What I am saying is that the WRITERS are full of sh-t with how they wrote the scene, their faulty justifications of a lower back injury somehow affecting Buffy's upper body strength. That's a bit of basic human physiology that the writers apparently forgot. If she hurt her neck or upper back, then yes, it would affect her ability to wrench her arms out of Spike's grip. Again, the only logical explaination is bad writing: That injury affected her like it did for no other reason than that the writers needed Buffy's to be weakened like she was.

You can scream out "rapist reasoning" if you want but the fact is that, like I've already explicitly stated, I'm not trying to exonerate Spike. I'm pointing out that the fault, the REAL FAULT is with the writers: that is what I'm trying to convey.

The entire situation is bullsh-t, the writers went too far with Buffy's darkness in Season 6 and they needed a reason to somehow make up for Buffy's abuse of Spike while also creating a reason why Spike HAD to go get a soul. Not only did they choose a vile way to do accomplish their goals but they did it half-@ssed. The writers wrote the scene to go against Buffy's basic physical characteristics and it only got worse when they had her then turn around and try to get Spike to babysit Dawn.

Quite frankly, off-scene action or not, there is no explanation to wrap up everything we saw on the show regarding the whole bathroom scene and its aftermath because of bad writing.

-Matt
Apr 09 2009 04:41 am   #79spikes_wish
You misunderstand, look at my previous posts: I'm not trying to say it's Buffy's fault or Buffy wasn't really trying to fight Spike off because as I stated Buffy WAS really trying to fight him off. But apparently the rules of the Buffyverse changed for those five minutes.

Sorry, didn't realise you were still referring to the writers here-but a lot of posts in this thread have insinuated this, and I can't see the reasoning behind it. I agree tht the writers made mistaes tha portrayed both characters completely OOC here. I undestand it to a point- it was the only way at this point in the season that they could justify Spike toddling off for hs soul. If mistakes (thats right Noxon) hadn't been made previously, it never would have gone this far.

Also the posting box hates me and misses out letters. I am v. sorry for this.
Apr 09 2009 05:04 am   #80FetchingMadScientist
I also want to clarify something-  Rape, attempted or otherwise, is a crime and is Wrong, whatever the gender of the rapist.  That said, I have to agree with Matt.  The writers spent all of season six showing us the "relationship" from Spike's side: He had nothing to do with her resurrection.  He loved her, and showed her in small ways.  But, the only way she would allow *any * affection was on her terms.  Spike was following Buffy's lead.  She was physically stronger than he was, for the whole of the show, *except * for that scene and we're supposed to throw all we know out the window?  Sorry, not doing it.

The writers wrote themselves into a corner, and smashed their characters to get out.  If Spike needed a soul, so be it.  Just use some less odious plot devise, please... Put Dawn in danger...anything!  Why'd they go there?!
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Apr 09 2009 05:19 am   #81spikes_wish
Why'd they go there?!

I think they wanted to show the magnitude of the soul in a way- that it woul take a crime that heinous for Spike to go and get his soul- and a this point in the season it was mre plausile for Spike to hurt Buffy due to how their relationship turned out than it would be to show Spike hurting Dawn.

And I agree they (accidentally?) made the majority of the audience sympathise with Spike- although, even pre SR, he says some things which are very damaging to Buffy's state of mind (the "You came back wrong" moment is, in some ways, more unforgivable than the attempted rape, because hre he is shown purposefully hurting Buffy- in SR it' clear that was never his intention). But Buffy's actions up until that point are worse- she treats him poorly both emotionally and physically. Plus Buffy has a nifty conscience where as Spike is flying blind.

In myopinion it all got screwed up in OMWFwhen pike ended up telling her that friendship wasn't enough for him (in that moment he felt it anyway. stupid singing demon bringing out momentary feelings). And the fact that she wouldn't allow affection all boils down to Buffy's self lothng- she doesn't want it, doesn't feelshe desrves it, so she punishes him for it. I wishwe'd seen Spike stand up for himself a bit more this season, but after Gone the "geting into her knikers" part seemed to b worth pushing aside his affections for her

Stupid writers. Stupid Noxon.
Apr 09 2009 06:14 am   #82nmcil
I also want to clarify something- Rape, attempted or otherwise, is a crime and is Wrong, whatever the gender of the rapist. That said, I have to agree with Matt. The writers spent all of season six showing us the "relationship" from Spike's side: He had nothing to do with her resurrection. He loved her, and showed her in small ways. But, the only way she would allow *any * affection was on her terms. Spike was following Buffy's lead. She was physically stronger than he was, for the whole of the show, *except * for that scene and we're supposed to throw all we know out the window? Sorry, not doing it. The writers wrote themselves into a corner, and smashed their characters to get out. If Spike needed a soul, so be it. Just use some less odious plot devise, please... Put Dawn in danger...anything! Why'd they go there?!

NICE - It made for great drama and it was a powerful plot advance device, but it really placed his character in a terrible place - as did the alley scene for Buffy.  If the writers wanted to make for great controversy and sure fire viewer's arguments and discussions, this was certainly the results -

I was not participating in any boards when the Faith stabbing took place - did they have the same super strong viewer reactions and discussions as SR?

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2009 06:35 am   #83spikes_wish
I was not participating in any boards when the Faith stabbing took place - did they have the same super strong viewer reactions and discussions as SR?

Probably not- viewers were much less sympathetic towards Faith, and Faith had commited worse crimes than Buffy ever does (she may treat Spike horribly, but she hasn't been on a murderous rampage or tried to kill anyones boyfriend), plus the crimes are mostly one way- Buffy does little to provoke Faith, wheras In Buffy and Spike's realtioship they provoke each other. Plus rape is a violation of body on a level mrder can't compare to.
Apr 09 2009 07:06 am   #84Scarlet Ibis
Again, I call bullsh-t on the writers' part. They tried to turn Buffy the Vampire Slayer into an ordinary woman for five minutes in order to make her the victim and Spike the monster.

It's the very fact that in real life women often CANT fight back against their attacker that is my point. Buffy had already proven with Olaf's hammer that she was significantly stronger than Spike. With that in mind (and the fact that Buffy's adrenaline would have skyrocketed, making her even stronger than before), Buffy having her hands "immobilized" like that by Spike is along the lines of a 10 year old girl "immoblizing" a grown man by hanging onto his arms: it's not going to happen unless it's intentionally allowed.


Ditto.  Ditto to all you said Matt and FMS.  I don't get what's so hard to comprehend about all of this.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 09 2009 07:21 am   #85spikes_wish
don't get what's so hard to comprehend about all of this.

What's hard to comprehend that writers aside, it has been insinuated that because of what happened previously in the season, and because she doesn't fight back with full strength immedately, that Buffy has somehow brought Spike's rape attempt upon herself, and that Spike is blameless for it, and that Buffy is responsible for it.

Which is a very disturbing train of thought- it condones reasoning that let's rapists get away with their crimes.

Some people on this thread (I realise now that Matt was talking exclusively about the writing, not just the characters in the context of the 'verse) have implied that because Buffy treated Spike horribly during theirreltionship she somehow had it coming, and that she has no one to blame but herself.
Apr 09 2009 07:43 am   #86Scarlet Ibis
Which is a very disturbing train of thought- it condones reasoning that let's rapists get away with their crimes.
No, it absolutely does NOT condone the reasoning of actual rapists.  This is what I find most baffling, and frankly, ludicrous.

You cannot compare the events in this fictitious show, in which the woman has the strength of twenty body builders, to real life, because real women who find themselves in such a predicament typically are not leagues stronger than the person who is attacking them.  It is madness to put RL constraints on this scene which lives in the world of fiction--fantasy fiction to be more specific.  Not to mention that Spike is not a rapist, nor was it his intent to hurt or rape her.  That isn't to say she wasn't hurt, but the fact of the matter is that she let it go there.  She allowed it.  Though she didn't use her power, she still used it to her advantage in a skewed way.  Spike was NOT the most powerful person in that room, and by her deliberately not using her power, essentially gave her more at the end of the day.  Because it "exonerated" her from everything else that transpired.  It laid all of the guilt and shame--all of her guilt and shame--on his shoulders.  And Spike carried that burden once Buffy passed the buck to him.  She was free and clear then, wasn't she?  She relinquished power for a moment to gain sole power at the end of the piece.  Quite clever.

This isn't some story that was on the news--we saw everything that lead up to that moment, and I don't see how it can be so blatantly ignored.  As FMS stated, the entire season Spike was the victim.  In the bathroom scene, the writers tried to flip the script--whatever reasoning they gave Buffy is irrelevant, because the fact of the matter is, she isn't a victim, and to force her to be one--for her to not really fight back like she could have, because she wasn't all that injured, and as Matt stated, her lower back has nothing to do with her arms, or kneeing him in the balls for instance--was showing her purposely letting it happen.  There is no legitmate reason for that scene to have lasted as long as it did, because what it boils down to is that Buffy had the power to stop it from point one.  And she didn't.  And that cannot be ignored.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 09 2009 08:53 am   #87spikes_wish
I agree that on the side of the writers they screwed up entirely.
In the context of the 'verse only (and this wasn't aimed at you Scarlet, I can understand your reasoning to a point- Spike's state of mind was Buffy's fault) but there were comments that put the blame entirely on Buffy, which is wrong.

And Buffy's guilt isn't alleviated entirely in this scene- she brings it up again in season seven in CWDP and clearly feels bad about what happened ("the way I treated him" or something along those lines).

Now can we *please* get off this tangent to the original topic? I don't understand why what happened post-Gone had any bearing on what happened during Gone in the first place.

I'm sorry if I got defensive- it was misdirected and I apologise.
Apr 09 2009 09:58 am   #88Scarlet Ibis
Cool beans ;)  It's squashed on my end.

Anyway.

I see where it got derailed...but as for the initial question, there was a split on my poll.  Though it was only forty people, a small number to be sure, those are the only numbers that I have access to.

<--wishes we could put a poll on here

20 felt that the act was "perfectly fine," while the other twenty were equally divided between "sexual assault" and "other" ( "other" as in they didn't feel it was quite right, but not wholly wrong either).

Frankly, I wish there had been more men to have taken the poll, but the ones who did vote voted for "other" or "sexual assault."

I think that, and this is just from this one episode and all that preceded it, that what we have is Spike using the factual excuse of looking for his lighter, while simultaneously seeking out Buffy, tries to put the moves on her, all slow and seductive like (at least, he didn't hurl her against any walls and rip off her clothes unasked), inevitably fails, and then leaves of his own volition after being rejected.  Later, we get blinvisble Buffy who seeks out Spike.  She makes no announcements, and Spike literally does not see her coming.  She hurls him into a wall, before hurling him elsewhere in the crypt.  From the disarray that we see in Xander's entrance, he clearly runs into a lot of things along the way to the lower part of the crypt--it is an utter mess on the upper level.

When Xander leaves, Buffy makes the (inappropriate, IMO) joke of Spike being "ashamed to be seen" with her, when it is in fact the hurtful opposite.  And I completely urge anyone to watch his face during the duration of this exchange.  There is a lot of downcast eyes and jaw clenching.  Buffy is confused, thinking that he wanted just the sex, and we the audience get to see Spike's overt exasperation and disappointment at the fact that no, that is not all that he wants.  The only reason that you're here, is that you're not here.  Spike deduces that for her, it's one big role play, because it's not really her with him.  She's invisible and "free of rules," so that makes it okay to be with him, which really isn't okay at all (to Spike who is shamelessly in love with her).  

Why do you always...I thought we were having fun.

Being with Buffy is not just fun for Spike, nor all he wants it to be.

(Spike holds her back and away from him)
Yeah,
now.  But sooner or later your chums are gonna work out a way to bring you back to living color.

Which would make the game over--a game which Spike has no desire to play, because he wants the real deal.  So where does that leave him?  Instead of being left high and dry, he tries to take control of the situation. He distances himself away from her--literally holding her back at arms length, and proceeds to tell her to leave.

You need to go.

His tone of voice changes here--he looks sad and downtrodden.

Get dressed if you can find your clothes, and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather-


If he had the chance to finish, I think he would have said something along the lines of "I'd rather have nothing at all."  Spike saw how having Buffy and not having her ate away at Riley.  Yes, he's a fool for love, but that doesn't mean he wants to be.

The next bit is Buffy, shocked and appalled that Spike "threw her out"--she says it twice with empahsis and disbelief.  This is fanwanking on my end, yes, but I don't see a logical conclusion of Spike going "Hey, that's cheating," to Buffy simply releasing him, or what have you, putting on her clothes and leaving in shock.  There's a missing piece to the scene, but it's cut so that on the surface, it seems funny.  Cause what guy would stop a blowjob before it really got started?  Spike, all serious, stops mid sentence to look down, and we think he gives in, only to see seconds later that alas--he didn't!  Buffy got rejected, and she's literally kicking a can down the street in this wacky/funny situation, where neither got to "finish"! 

Only it didn't ring funny to me.  Or okay.  Particularly because here, Spike sees she's only there for the fun of it, and how it's not wrong cause she's invisible, and for the moment, nothing matters (to her).  But it still mattered to him, and it hurt
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 09 2009 10:15 am   #89nmcil

That isn't to say she wasn't hurt, but the fact of the matter is that she let it go there. She allowed it. Though she didn't use her power, she still used it to her advantage in a skewed way. Spike was NOT the most powerful person in that room, and by her deliberately not using her power, essentially gave her more at the end of the day. Because it "exonerated" her from everything else that transpired. It laid all of the guilt and shame--all of her guilt and shame--on his shoulders. And Spike carried that burden once Buffy passed the buck to him. She was free and clear then, wasn't she? She relinquished power for a moment to gain sole power at the end of the piece. Quite clever.

I both hate and yet can admire the scene because, as Scarlet Ibis states, its structure using  this heinous crime of rape does reverse their rolls.  In a much used Whedon Mirror World style,  Buffy becomes the obvious victim and Spike the obvious criminal - it makes it very easy to see it in isolation from the history that they share in their dysfunctional and abusive relationship.  His attempted rape detracts from the themes that are a very important part of the story they are telling.  The debate in the context of "Where to place blame and who bears the responsibility"  The attempted rape is like a double edged sword. It forced viewers into a very provocative subject but it also made viewers take some very strong positions regarding the characters at the expense, IMVHO, of the season long arc.   There were several members of the board I belonged to that were never able to see Spike without the baggage of the attempted rape. 

And it was indeed a heavy burden and damage to the character of Spike - the metaphor of Black Kali is a great application for SR - Spike must be destroyed to be made into a new life form.  That is why his lines of conflict and inability to understand what he has become is, IMO, so important.  

"This isn't some story that was on the news--we saw everything that lead up to that moment, and I don't see how it can be so blatantly ignored""

This having been witness to all that came before, is a very important part of the viewer's perceptions - it most certainly plays a big part in my interpretation of SR.  I am not looking for ways to make Spike's attack of Buffy acceptable, but it does give a lot more complexity to the episode and their relationship.

Getting Back to Gone - I like the episode very much - It's a perfect treatment and comment on how very sad a place Buffy and Spike have arrived at -  Of Course Buffy likes being free to do anything or anyone - unfortunately she is throwing away a very good chance to find some love and comfort in her life.  And you just know that everyting is going to go straight to hell when she tells Dawn that she realizes that she wants to live, that she does not want death - that can only mean one thing - Good-bye To You  Spike.  Just like the song from The Bronze 

Vote on the Poll - it's not clear and clean for me - within the context of the episode played for comedy and Spike's willing participation I would have to go with OTHER  

Great discussion - even after all these years Buffy and Spike still bring out all our passions and make us think - 

Off for 2 weeks in California now -



 

 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 09 2009 03:47 pm   #90FetchingMadScientist
My vote n "Gone".....given the choice of either sexual assault or not, I choose the former.  That's sexual assault, and it could be argued, and was on another thread as a Big Nasty "Other" which I agree with.  Search the forums, and I think you'll find the thread I have in mind.
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Apr 20 2009 01:01 pm   #91Guest
I don't think you can class the blowjob as sexual assault without watching *after* the cut- we have no idea if Spike even tells her to stop (IMO "That's cheating" doesn't translate as "Stop), for all we know, Spike lets her continue and then throws her out. Or maybe he tells her to stop and she doesn't.

However, this is all fanwanking, and what we actually see on-screen is in no way sexual assault- it would only be classified as so f after asking her to desist, she refused. You could infer from their relationship (pre and post-Gone) that Buffy might be unlikely to stop because he told her to, however Canon-wise, Buffy is not shown to commit sexual assault in this instance.

I think you can make much more of a case for the upstairs scene where Buffy pushes him against the wall.
Apr 20 2009 11:46 pm   #92Scarlet Ibis
I think you can make much more of a case for the upstairs scene where Buffy pushes him against the wall.
That's true for the upstairs scene, though going from him saying "get your things and leave" to her sucking his dick is still pretty dicey.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 21 2009 06:23 pm   #93Unbridled_Brunette
I'm in the camp that sees what Buffy did in the earlier (upstairs) scene as worse than the "cheating" that happened later. A lot of Spuffy fans love the upstairs scene because, well, it's nice to see James' bare chest, but I've always felt uncomfortable watching it. The way she slings him around before throwing him into the wall and ripping off his clothes isn't funny at all, and it isn't cute. If the roles were reversed and Spike came into Buffy's room all Invisible Man, threw her around a bit, then pinned her against the wall and tore off her shirt ... would that still be considered okay? So why is it okay for a woman to do it to a man? And why is it okay for a woman who is significantly stronger than a man to beat the living hell out of him? I don't care what her reasons were or how depressed she was. If a male character did that to a female character I highly doubt he would ever be seen as a "hero" again.


Edited to add: The "cheating" scene didn't bother me so much because it lacked the violence of the other. Yes, he told her to leave, but it wasn't like she threw him to the floor and pinned him down before putting her mouth on him. I saw it more as a playful type of manipulation than a sexual assault. Now, if he had said no again and she continued to try to coerce him, I would have a problem with it. But since the scene ended there, we have no idea what happened after. It's possible he just pushed her away and she left angry.
Faithfully bowing at the altar that is Stephen Colbert
Apr 22 2009 06:36 am   #94Guest
If the roles were reversed and Spike came into Buffy's room all Invisible Man, threw her around a bit, then pinned her against the wall and tore off her shirt ... would that still be considered okay? So why is it okay for a woman to do it to a man? And why is it okay for a woman who is significantly stronger than a man to beat the living hell out of him? I don't care what her reasons were or how depressed she was. If a male character did that to a female character I highly doubt he would ever be seen as a "hero" again.

Why is Anya and Spike's hook up made to seem like cheating when Buffy explicitly stated she and Spike were never even together and Xander humiliated Anya by jilting at the altar? 
Why is it OK that Xander summoned Sweet and caused innocent people to die horribly painful deaths?
Why is it OK for Buffy to "gift" thousands of girls around the world with Slayer powers when she herself has spent the last 7 years b*tching about the unfairness of being a Slayer?
Why is what the tribesmen did to create the original Slayer considered a form of rape while Willow's doing the same thing (just on a far greater level) considered "empowerment"?
Why are Buffy and the Scoobies credited with closing the Hellmouth when they were just playing backup while Spike did the actual deed of destroying the ubervamp army and collapsing Sunnydale?

Answer: Because Buffy and the Scoobies were the "heroes" and actions that would be considered "unforgivable" if done by anyone else was either glossed over or quickly forgotten if it was a Scooby doing it.

See:
1) Xander trying to rape Buffy vs Spike in SR
2) Warrening murdering his ex vs Willow flaying Warren alive
3) Spike being constantly villified for nearly raping Buffy vs Willow actually raping Tara

Please Note:
1) Look it up: Hyenas are intensely matriarichal and rape is literally an alien concept to them (not to mention physically impossible) and the (very few) aggressive males quickly get their @sses kicked. Xander tried to rape Buffy and she was forced to knock him out because he refused to stop. Later he pretended to "not remember" it and the entire thing was completely forgotten. Meanwhile, Spike was kicked back 3 feet and promptly ran out in horror at what he nearly did and then he went halfway across the world to ensure that he'd never hurt her like that again.
Lies and concealment vs self-disgust and atonement. And to top it off Xander, the one who really shouldn't be throwing stones, is one of the leading figures who refuse to let the "evil souless rapist attacking the innocent woman" issue drop.
2) Blunt force trauma to the head is not that bad of a way to die, it's a hell of alot less painful than being tortured and having all your skin ripped off.
3) Willow first raped Tara's mind, stripping Tara of her knowledge of their fight and thus compromising Tara's decision making abilities regarding Willow. Afterwards, Willow and Tara had sex.  Impairing someone's judgement and then having sex with them is rape, regardless of how much the victim may think they want it at the time.

Hyppocracy abounds: what is right and wrong for everyone else is not necessarily right or wrong for the Scoobies.

-Simon
Apr 22 2009 02:39 pm   #95evangelin
I agree with absolutely everything you said ;) (except that I'm 100% OK with what happened to Warren and if put in Willow's place, would have done the same or worse :um:  )! Buffy is a saint in my eyes...well, as long as saint=bitch! It doesn't?! Huh! Really?! Huh!(Joss stops making sense to me!) That goes for the whole gang, too, especially for Rupert and Xander. What can I say, I hate the guys' guts even more than I hate Buffy's!(Well, no, I don't hate them all the time, only most of it!)
Apr 23 2009 04:27 am   #96nmcil
I don't think there are any scenarios that would have played the "comedy Sex" angle and not had a huge out rage from the viewers if Spike and Buffy had been in the reversal positions in her invisible first scene in Gone.  The contrast between what the female Buffy vs the male Spike gender roles and what our culture will accept in the situation presented (violent throwing and ripping of clothes) during that part of the scene is considerably different when a woman does it vs a male. 

Gender Roles make a huge difference - the viewers understood that the point being made in the episode is about Buffy's emotional condition after her resurrection and the great difference between what she offers and Spike wants and needs - but IMO the writers used an easy out for the female/Buffy's conduct and a horrible and violent treatment for their eventual resolution of  the male figure/Spike. 

It was very disturbing to me to see James Marsters in a Q/A session state that the Buffy-Angel relationship was the right one - that the Spike character was totally wrong for her character.  That if he accepts and respects what the writers were trying to accomplish with the series Angel and Buffy are the right ending relationship and that Spike was The Wrong Man/Vamp for her.  He does say that in his (James Marsters heart) Spike was the good choice - I have to respect his judgements and he obviously had a great deal more information and insight on where the writers and Joss Whedon were trying to take Buffy. 

Still, one has to wonder sometimes how so much of the actual screen time and character treatment that were shown to the viewers can be overlooked or ignored by the creative staff and even by the actors.  Maybe I saw an older interview, but it look fairly recent by his looks.  I sometime wonder if I dreamed up my own episodes instead of what was shown on television.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2009 04:41 am   #97Scarlet Ibis
It was very disturbing to me to see James Marsters in a Q/A session state that the Buffy-Angel relationship was the right one - that the Spike character was totally wrong for her character. That if he accepts and respects what the writers were trying to accomplish with the series Angel and Buffy are the right ending relationship and that Spike was The Wrong Man/Vamp for her.Maybe I saw an older interview, but it look fairly recent by his looks.

That was this past weekend at FX International nmcil.

I get exactly what James was trying to say, and I concur.  The writers tried to make Spike out to be this awful bad/wrong boyfriend type for Buffy, which would make Angel the "better" choice by default.  The thing is this--though the writers did not succeed in making this point to all of the audience members, they did in fact attempt to make him the "bad guy" in season six.  Even Joss copped out on a Spuffy scene in s7.  They did not want Spike to be Buffy's #1, particularly the soulless (I don't give a crap that he didn't have one) in season 6 Spike.

Though in my personal opinion, canonly speaking, neither should be with her. Learn, grow, and move on.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 23 2009 06:24 am   #98nmcil
Well - it all breaks my Spuffy Heart and Spuffy Mind - and I hate to think of all the renewed credence that it gives back to Buffy-Angel Forever idea.   Guess I will just have to go with the "let's ignore" all the bad and very complex things that the primary hero models did in the series.  It's not that I am so devoted to the Spike character - I am not one of his "Spike can do no wrong" fans, he did tons of wrong - but I have a very difficult time, and maybe even starting to lose some respect for the creative staff, with their failure to address some of the very complex and mature themes that the series introduced and then seems to forget.  

I too can agree with James Marsters that what the writers presented with the Buffy-Spike relationship was all about "bad choices and bad relationships" - but if this was what their goals were why they hell write the Spike character with such great complexity, passion and heart?  What are the viewers suppose to do with his sacrifice with Glory and all the rest of his acts of love and devotion and how are we equally to forget all the very bad conduct from their heroine model.  I admit to my total confusion after seeing this interview.  

For all the Spuffy writers, how will this interview effect your work?  I would be really interested to hear what the Spuffy writers feel about this since this is such a recent interview.   Will this latest "Spike Was The Wrong Choice" change how you write the Buffy-Spike relationship - does it chip away (sorry for the use) at your Spuffy commitment? 

It will be interesting to see what ends up happening in the Comic Seasons - I have to admit that I am very ambivalent and confused about what is happening with the Comic Seasons -

How I would love to have a real life interview or attend a  panel on all the dark  and complex themes that were presented in the series and particularly with the Buffy-Angel-Spike characters.  A really serious discussion that separates itself from the Public Face that the series sometimes wears.  I want to know what ideas and answers the writers have regarding Buffy's attempted murder of Faith or how the idea that the Buffy character can still be seen as the right ending relationship with that treat,emt as part of the character's history.  I want to know how their primary  heroine can brutally attack someone with impunity, how said character can be restored as the heroine model or if the viewers are suppose to have made a change in how they saw Buffy and her conduct.  I wish someone would have had a fallow up question about some of these issues or for JM to have time for a much more in depth discussion about the treatment of Spike and this relationship. 

After all this time and all these conventions and Q/A sessions, isn't it time to get more in depth discussions about the very serious and dark  thematic material in the series - Don't the fans attending these events deserve answers to some many of the questions that still need answers.  Do I have a wrong idea of what attendees want from the Buffyverse events?

Sorry for the rant -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2009 06:40 am   #99Scarlet Ibis
For all the Spuffy writers, how will this interview effect your work?
It doesn't.  Even if I didn't agree with him (and I do on that), the point of fan fiction is to change things.  If all we did was keep the fandom geared towards canon, then I absolutely would not be a Spuffy shipper.  Canon Spuffy = major bad/wrongness, and no, it isn't because I think Spike's a "bad bf."

Don't the fans attending these events deserve answers to some many of the questions that still need answers. Do I have a wrong idea of what attendees want from the Buffyverse events?
I agree with you.  That's why Paley Fest (for me) was so incredibly disappointing.  "What's on your iPod?"  "What's your favorite movie?"  Um, who the frig cares? Not to mention that can be answered on a simple Google search, I'm sure.  You have the creator, Joss Whedon, and Maudlin Noxious right there, and that's your question?  Really?  If I'd had been there...I would have totally asked a real question actually pertaining to the show, particularly asking why they (Maudlin) chose that dark direction to go in, among other things.  I probably would have ranted a bit, maybe even sounded insulting...even so, I still wish I'd been there to do that.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 23 2009 06:41 am   #100nmcil
They did not want Spike to be Buffy's #1, particularly the soulless (I don't give a crap that he didn't have one) in season 6 Spike.

For the creator and avowed atheist - It is utter nonsense to even bring up the idea of a soul being the standard of anything.  I am an atheist and the having a soul that is a demarcation of Good vs Evil is the very idea that we abhore. 

Has Joss Whedon ever addressed what his intent was in bringing in this "soul concept" or what his concept of The Buffyverse Soul entailed?  Is it a Judeo/Christian concept, which is what I think of with respect to the moral judgmental stance that Buffy and all the Scoobies always seem to take.  In an Eastern perspective, a soul would be more metaphor and much more complex than Scooby constant demand of Soul as the definition of what is Good and what is Evil.  

Has anyone from the series ever given an answer to what a soul means in The Buffyverse?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2009 06:55 am   #101Scarlet Ibis
Has anyone from the series ever given an answer to what a soul means in The Buffyverse?
I've never heard any interviews pertaining to that.  However, the show itself addresses that a soul is pretty much irrelevant.  Everyone in the Buffyverse has free will--human or demon, doesn't matter.  That had no bearings on who was "good" and who was not, or that one's actions are only "good" with a soul and "bad" without one.  Even though the main characters held onto the whole "soul good!/soulless bad!" nonsense until the end, in spite of everything that they saw, which was utterly ludicrous.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 23 2009 06:58 am   #102Guest
Has anyone from the series ever given an answer to what a soul means in The Buffyverse?

Not really, just that it was Angel's automatic out for all his crimes: The whole "It wasn't me, it was the demon" spiel. Despite the fact that the other recurring vampires in the series (ie Spike and Harmony) didn't change all that much after they were turned and it makes absolutely no sense that, if that was the case, Angel would beheld accountable and need to atone for someone else's crimes.

Later the whole "evil souless thing" just became the Buffy's long standing justification for beating Spike for information, using him as a sextoy, and beating the sht out of him. Because if Buffy did that to an actual person, then she's the monster.

I don't think religion had a thing to do with the concept of a soul in BtVS: it just demarcated who the "good" Scoobies could kill and use indecriminately.
Apr 23 2009 10:49 am   #103nmcil
It all seems like a vicious cycle to me or that Buffy and her fellow White Hats became entrapped by powerful words without real meaning except that which they choose to give.  Free Will is what shapes their realm view, but this having of a soul is what they give power to.  The writers even insist that one of the prime characters must have this soul to exist as an agent for Good or the positive force in their world. 

I don't think religion had a thing to do with the concept of a soul in BtVS: it just demarcated who the "good" Scoobies could kill and use indecriminately.

I really hate to think that this is all it comes down to - a plot device for Angel/Angelus that ultimately shaped so much of the prime heroine and one of the most powerful and compelling characters of their entire series, Spike. 

It's extremely interesting  that the one character without free will was Angel/Angelus.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2009 03:03 pm   #104Guest
The writers even insist that one of the prime characters must have this soul to exist as an agent for Good or the positive force in their world.

And yet they had Spike do truly good things while he was still souless, like refusing to tell Glory about Dawn despite nearly being tortured to death for it and then taking care of Dawn after Buffy died.

Spike haters can btch and moan all they want but taking care of a dead woman's little sister is not an act of an evil monster who could NEVER do anything good.
Apr 23 2009 05:00 pm   #105FetchingMadScientist
I've said before that the writers painted themselves into a corner with the soul thing, but it doesn't have a thing to do with what I write.  Mr. Marsters can say what he likes and that's okay.  I think he tried to float the "bad bf" idea before, particularly after SR; (The poor man wasn't even * consulted* before they wrote that script, and * ruined* his pathos with some viewers.)  That argument never flew with most of us who write and post here. 

I write Spike how I know he could, and should, have been.  And I also think they wanted to "save" the hero vamp on that other show from looking like a cardboard cut- out, (no help there) in comparison.

I still think they gave the wrong vamp his own show...
FetchingMadScientist
"Never a fetching mad scientist about when you need one." -Spike
Apr 23 2009 10:22 pm   #106Scarlet Ibis
It's extremely interesting that the one character without free will was Angel/Angelus.
No, he had free will.  But why would Angelus, who prided himself on being a top dog in the vampire world, bother with trying to appease humans and live his unlife by their rules?  I'm not going to knock him for that.  Angelus is ruled by the desire to carry out his own agenda for the most part, and Spike, to quote Immortal Beloved, is an "inexorable devotee."  I don't expect two vampires to be the same any more than I expect two humans to be the same.  So when vampire B behaves nothing like vampire A, why apply the same rule (soul good!) to both?  There was a lot of hypocritical B.S. going on.

As for Marsters and the "bad bf" idea, it stems from how SR made him/Spike feel--bad/dirty/wrong, and put him in therapy...so him having a good view of that is slim to none.  Though with some time and distance, his answers to that question have been evolving.  He does think Spike is the better choice, but with all of skewed and hypocritical writing, of course the "preferred" choice would be Angel (though I still maintain neither...).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 23 2009 11:15 pm   #107nmcil
Does the entity we know as Angel really have free will - once he has been cursed, his very existence is forced into an extreme and fundamental change.  Does that constitute Free Will if he is forced by the soul to live a fundamentally changed life?   We were shown  that his former existence, Angelus, is a complete contrast to his life with a soul.  He immediately reverts back to Angelus without the soul, his life and conduct is fundamentally different as Angelus - does he really have free will?  Does the Angel entity have any control of Angelus?  Does Angelus simply choose to act out his evil demon/vampire life style? 

This manipulation of The Mind and Life is a very intriguing theme - When does Free Will apply?  For instance with Tara - Willow manipulates her mind, as did Glory.  Like Angel/Angelus her life was fundamentally changed by an outside forces - No Free Will.  Angel is the forced creation by outside forces;Gypsy Curse, is he running on Free Will or the imposition of change by the curse?  

With Spike's chip a fundamental difference is that unlike Tara and Angel sans soul, his life is still under his free will.  He can choose to continue with the vampiric life style by simply using mimions, even human willing to kill victims for him - or he can choose to not feed from human victims.  Tara under's Willow's spell or Glory's  had no free will of choice.  

I guess that the vampire's could always have not feed of humans had they wanted - but this would corrupt the fundamental operating world view of The Slayer and The CoW that vampires and most demons were intrinsically evil and without the capacity to exist outside of the controlling demon.  Did Giles or The CoW work from the fundamental position, as Buffy stated throughout the series, that vampiric demons are unable to take on any other life style or life forms? 

It has been a while since I watched the earlier seasons - Did Giles or the CoW ever address the theme of Free Will in the demonic life forms?

According to Buffy's repeated statements  that Spike, a vampiric demon, fundamentally could never be anything other than his evil demonic life form - Free Will, as Spike continually used, should have been an impossibility. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 23 2009 11:33 pm   #108Scarlet Ibis
The cursed soul theoretically created a freak of nature that is Angel.  Angelus views it as a handicap that he can't escape.  Spike has more leeway with the chip, because it doesn't alter his personality or feelings, but it is a handicap all the same, but in a different manner.

I guess that the vampire's could always have not feed of humans had they wanted
But why would they want to?  It's their main and natural food source.  Nature says they are predators, and their prey are humans.  Sure they can survive through other means, but why cut corners if you don't have to?  I could live off of vegetables, fruit, and tofu, but I will certainly not be giving up burgers and steak any time ever.

Did Giles or the CoW ever address the theme of Free Will in the demonic life forms?
I'm pretty sure it was all "Demons are evil and must be destroyed.  The end" to give the long and short of it.  They said something along the lines of that demons only have the will to be and do evil, which suggests no free will by default, IMHO, but I think they're wrong no matter how you slice it anyway :P (insert smiley here, cause I don't think they're working yet).

According to Buffy's repeated statements that Spike, a vampiric demon, fundamentally could never be anything other than his evil demonic life form
Yeah, she was horrendously wrong, and held onto that sentiment in spite of Spike's changes.  I don't know if that was an incredible amount of sheer denial, or just incredible, "righteous" blindness there...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Apr 24 2009 03:32 pm   #109Guest

I had to comment but I will admit I am not giving my pen name or in fact my real name.

 

My question for everyone is how can you possibly in your own minds even answer this question not based on something very much in the real world??????

 

You can’t.  Simple as that.  There are some of us that are entirely basing those particular episodes on what we in reality perceive them to be.  You take them on what you know and education or the facts are.  Some are actually getting insulted.  Actually, in fact I am very insulted to hear what I am hearing based on this whole thread.

 

I may be in fact a Spike fan and yes a Spuffy fan but that does not deter what I feel the writers did for Season 6.  You can’t look at one episode and say that Buffy was not at fault.  You have to take the history into fact.  You have to look at the all around facts!!!

 

Yes Spike came to Sunnydale (canon) to kill Buffy and yet it did not happen this way.  In the end he fell for her.  I don’t condone the way he went about telling her he loved her but look at the facts.  He’s NOT human!  He had been taught this was the way to hearts by Dru, Angelus, and Darla.  It all comes down to ethics.  It is how we are brought up.

 

I won’t say who I am because I was in a very abusive and ‘hostile’ environment when I was just a toddler.  I was RAPED repeatedly.  This thread completely insults all those survivors out there who know about this personally!

 

Did Buffy sexually assault Spike in that episode? Abso-freaking-lutely!  Spike may have not changed sides completely because of the chip but there is no doubt in my mind he was completely enraptured by Buffy from the get go!  She still abused him repeatedly.  She treated him like dirt.  It all comes down to the damn soul or should I say the writers.

 

First off what gave them the right to get into what a soul was anyway?  No one really knows.  We all have our beliefs.  To be quite honest the writers as a whole really really screwed that up!  They made Angel/Angelus completely not remember what he did but yet Spike does.  I know Angel was cursed but I mean come on!  Brains!  Use them!

 

I loved Spike from the millisecond that he stepped on screen.  He was brash, cocky, in your face, and so completely downright HONEST!  This was a soulless demon.  This was IMO what was left from him being human.  I agree with that.  I don’t agree with the losing your soul when you became a demon because uh do we really know anything about them?  So that being said, you have to take a lot into consideration to really break down the episodes you are trying to find out whether or not it was sexual assault or not!

 

Honestly, after watching the Paley Reunion I had to refrain from throwing something at my new flat screen 28’ computer monitor!  I was pissed.  They said Buffy was about women empowerment?  PUHLEASE!  They had Reese Witherspoon play a woman in empowerment in Legally Blonde better than what they had Sarah do.  All I saw was a whiney a** blonde who constantly thought of her damn self but who was one obedient puppy while following after her friends and watcher to make them happy!  I won’t even get started on Angel romance because uh pedophile anyone!  This coming from a survivor of what it means to be attempted and actual rape!  Hello I was a toddler when this happened, and watching Angel in a puddle of drool with Buffy made me truly sick to see this happening!

 

The writers were twisted!  I can’t say it wasn’t a completely bad series but in all honesty I only truly loved Season 5 and Season 7.  They took Season 6 a bit too damn far.  You want to see an actual rape watch ‘The Accused’ or go watch Lifetime for Women.  Then you will see and hear.

 

Spikes_wish I understand that you’re someone of authority in cases like this and sure it angers you to hear them being a woman.  As I am a grown woman I sympathized with Spike the entire Season 6.  She initiated while he adored their friendship.  Sure he wanted more but he knew he was beneath her.  I actually found her quite in fact the opposite of him really!  They tried to entail a young woman empowerment when really all they accomplished was showing an abusive whiney b****.  She complained at every turn and she constantly beat on Spike even when he had the chip.  It was disgusting!

 

I commended Spike for trying to take back his own dignity when he found the chip didn’t work on her but he still loved her.  Why he did is truly beyond me.  Being a vampire and liking the violence sure but Spike was always shown as tender with those he was with regardless if he was in love or not!

 

SR was an insult…Season 6 was an insult and IMO just done so poorly.  I don’t give a rats a** because she was depressed because she missed heaven.  I miss not having a freaking child hood.  Didn’t mean that I went out and beat the living crap out of (in Buffy’s eyes) a soulless thing just because I could!

 

So to answer your question…Buffy abused AND yes she sexually assaulted him at every turn.  You train someone to be this way they ultimately respond and treat you the same way back unless you break the cycle.  I broke my cycle but it took awhile and lots of therapy.  My mother was sexually abused and then so was I.  My daughter I pray never does.  This is why I related to Spike the entire season 6!  Don’t care how damaged she was she had no right.  She should have taken her pain out on those who damaged her so badly.  She damaged Spike and placed everything on his shoulders so she didn't have to deal with it.  Hence Seeing Red.  Very convenient BTVS writers.  That was just so very wrong! 

I really enjoyed reading what Matt and Scarlet and a few others had to say in regards to this. 

Apr 25 2009 08:05 pm   #110nmcil

All I saw was a whiney a** blonde who constantly thought of her damn self but who was one obedient puppy while following after her friends and watcher to make them happy! I won’t even get started on Angel romance because uh pedophile anyone! This coming from a survivor of what it means to be attempted and actual rape! Hello I was a toddler when this happened, and watching Angel in a puddle of drool with Buffy made me truly sick to see this happening!

I think that a great many viewers agree with your assessments - while I accept and interpret the series as metaphor, from the perspective of real life I actually agree with much of your POV about the Buffy Heroine character and the theme of female empowerment - the writers almost entirely destroyed her as a role model from the perspective of The Real World and Season Six was, IMVHO, a Mirror World . The writers turned the role models from the female/heroine into the vamp/hero but they still had to deal with the expectations and Buffy Is the Heroine of the series - so again, IMVHO, the throw away what could have been a truly and deeply profound situation by not exploring the human condition and emotional mind set and all the dogma and insecurities that created Buffy Season Six and Spike.

Sexual Abusive and Emotionally abuse on Buffy Season Six - I totally agree with you, but both go together and Gone, like the entire season and series as you stated, must be taken as a whole. Buffy does take advantage of Spike but they act together. Spike, getting back to Free Will, had the choice to say NO NO NO, throw her sorry self out, but he does.

We have to remember however, that the series reflects both Real Life and at the same time is a fiction. "Gone" does bring in the themes of how people, and Buffy, want an easy out from their misery and all the burdens of their life - While some viewers may think that all she does is whine and is completely self-centered, many viewers do not share this POV. I am one of the viewers that do see the character as extremely self-centered - Buffy's world revolves around Buffy - like most teens and most children. One of the problems with trying to assess this series as one of female empowerment is that what it most reflects IMVHO, is rites of passage from childhood on the paths of not just adulthood. Another, IMO, vital aspect is what the individual viewers consider as a positive and mature adult. Season Six Buffy was totally a Center of the Self and her inner demons - Spike is a man/vamp that is like a magnificent plant that is growing and growing until he flowers and becomes the epitome of all the best in humankind. It is almost like Satan transformed back in Lucifer back before The Fall – or, more like how I see him, as A Bodhisattva, or like the Universal Positive Life Force for which the sun is one of the metaphors.

 

Buffy and Spike both are transformed through all their Season Six misery. Buffy does take on some horrific attributes in Season Six, she is an abusive disgusting thing, the very picture of how she wants to see Spike – she does put everything on him – the writers tell us from their "morning after" scene that she will see him as a convenience and that she has murderous fury and all her inner demons left from her idealized Angel/Angelus. There is a reason that Angel comes into the scene almost immediately – Buffy, like all women who have suffered and been in abusive relationship – have all those horrible memories and psychological scars and demons to struggle with, fight and then ultimately vanquish. Unfortunately for Spike, Buffy and Season Six – the writers never, IMVHO, complete and resolve the deeply complex themes that season six introduced. Most importantly, and to the detriment of their Buffy heroine model, the writers mainly give her an "easy out treatment" – all that violence and abusive behavior without real consequences or in depth exploration of why she acted out all her fury and violence on the other most important hero model. We have all the dreamscapes but mainly those are all kept hidden from her "real world" and are only expressed against Spike – and for many of the viewers that creates a huge flaw in the character and the series.

On the horrendous and tragic "Seeing Red" attempted rape scene – I don’t think that viewers want to exonerate Spike, nor do they want to see Buffy as only a victim. The tragedy and I understand that this is only my perspective, is that both characters were entangled in a sad, painful, dysfunctional and abusive relationship. We can’t, place blame on one character, the both were responsible. Spike eventually through all the hurt and violence of Season Six eventually becomes the great hero of Season Seven and Chosen – and Buffy, eventually becomes the young woman back on her Heroine Slayer Road that goes into the very lands of The Underworld to save her champion and equal hero.

I think you might be surprised how many of women viewers suffered from abuse, both sexual and emotion – how many viewers of both genders have suffered from sexual abuse.


Sorry for all the typos, errors, etc - and the long rant

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Apr 26 2009 12:51 am   #111Guest
I actually can see your 'long rant'  Yes I'm the guest who really has it in for Buffy as you can quite possibly tell.  She really gave me an outlook on what women shouldn't do.  If you base Season 6 on it.  She had the qualities of self involvement all along.

We could dissect every little detail that was spun from Buffy and even Angel and we will all agree to disagree to some certain extent. 

I think you might be surprised how many of women viewers suffered from abuse, both sexual and emotion – how many viewers of both genders have suffered from sexual abuse.

I know this.  I think the first thing I did when I was finally adopted was get thrown in a group session based on this.  I certainly have my own heated opinion of what I perceive about any kind of abuse.  Some may not see it this way.

What I think I was trying to convey and didn't do it so well was simply this.  We are born and we are taught things.  Some things are not so easy to overcome.  What I tried getting across was had I not been helped I would have repeated the cycle my biological grandfather started from where it started from with him...

When it comes down to actually all of the characters on Buffy and even Angel series, they were ultimately all really screwed up with few exceptions here and there.  You are molded and shaped in a way and even indirectly by those you surround yourself.  It's inevitable.  It happens.

Spike came in blazing and then he molded into their group.  I won't take sides because personally it takes two to tango.  It takes two if not more to hold that rope in tug-o-war.  Every single one of those characters fed off of each other, no pun intended.  LoL.

I'm not the word or even suggesting any one was wrong in their responses and quite honestly I was pleased with what I had to say to this.  I thought I would say something so remotely stupid and I had written it at work.  Yeah me! 

I just couldn't sit back and see that (even as a Spike or Spuffy fan) Spike take all the burden for half of that Season.  Personally she jumped his bones.  Second he isn't human.  If the attraction is there...You are going to react!  To understand Spike you have to go WAY back.  Spike is Love's Bitch.  Period.  I got the feeling that he basically adapted to who he was around.  He changes constantly.  Although, I have to admit I saw little change in regards to the Soul having.  Bad writing there.

I would be the first to jump on the victims defense.  They were both wrong.  Buffy for her abusive behavior and yeah she raped him.  Uh she impaled herself on him.  He's attracted to her.  See how he reacted the morning after.  I certainly would put up my own defenses as the one I just spent the night with demolishing a building stand there and no less spat on your face.  Metaphorically speaking.  She did.  She was disgusted.  Again bad writing all around.  Because then they are taking out of context what was transpiring before she jumped to her 'for the love of sister' death and their tentative friendship transpiring when she was resurrected.

Honestly, as much as I loved the series...It should have ended there or jumped to Season 7 for crying out loud.  Why take such large emotionally driven arcs and skip over them?  They brushed way too much off to begin with.  It's like writing.  You're going to write...keep it together and back up your ideas.  Dont' jump around and then throw it all away by doing a simple wash of the hands.

Probably why I love True Blood more than BTVS.  Better arcs or could it be Eric *sigh makes me miss Spike so damn much!*

The writers are creative...no doubt but follow through.

Back to the question though...Still see Buffy's action as sexual assault.  No matter the attraction she still assaulted him.  She did not care one bit because he was a soulless vampire.  To her that was her 'bible'  She couldn't stand herself so she destroyed her own good (sickenly IMVHO) view on herself.  When she got it back she laid it all on Spike.  Typical.

That's kind of like saying you didn't beat your husband or wife then left them.  Came back after being caught in a compromising position to apologize because um hello you broke your trained puppy.  So they come back pleading they were wrong when in fact they weren't?  Doesn't fly with me.  Then to add insult to injury...Devastated you make a wrong judgment call and pull back and run off to better yourself.  Learn that you were in fact being used so that they felt better about themselves.  Buffy took Psychology she wasn't stupid.  You can take some belief of what it means to come back from the dead and so forth and bend it to your will but really it was done completely in the wrong way.  First off I would have been pissed off at my friends rather than sis and resident vamp!  WTH?????  That's what I'm talking about with that whole season.  Didn't fly with me.

Yes its very hard to get away from the situation.  Especially when your heart is in it.  Its hard as hell.  I don't think anyone ever takes a moment to realize that they start mirroring their significant others.  Spike tried.  Some things he did weren't using the best judgement but the creators made him soulless and in fact his only morale support was coming from people that weren't so encouraging.  Of course he didn't very well speak up and say hey I want to change either.  He was the Big Bad.  That's why we love him!

On the horrendous and tragic "Seeing Red" attempted rape scene

I'm still having a hard time seeing "Seeing Red" as an attempted rape.  Attempted rape is going there with the intention of rape in your mind.  Rape is about power and control.  I saw devastation....Pain hurt.  Two rurally screwed up individuals not dealing with their issues.  Did it go to far...yeah.  There's such a thin line with this episode that it quite possibly can't be labeled as attempted Date Rape.  It's a fine line indeed.  Spike was horrified and completely devastated by where it finally ended up. How is he an attempted rapist by these actions?  To me it doesn't.   Buffy was not that weak.  I agree she let it continue because her playing card...Land of Denial.  She has been in worse condition before and still knocked off things bigger than her in a heartbeat.  It was a means to an end.  They did it purposely and in complete distaste.  It was in fact insulting.  She trained Spike well with her no's because he knew she wanted it before.  She would kick him down and then have at him.   Honestly, she was sick with the mental games.  You train someone this way they start responding this way.

Why do you think I said it takes a long while to stop the cycle.  No matter what happened you still look at the psychological first.  Its a never ending cycle.  But it can stop and who did that...Spike did.  He gets a soul but then a soul isn't everything and altogether a different matter.

I agree with quite a bit of what you said it just riles me up that most can't look at the whole picture.  They look at partial.  Like that one single episode is like one movie when in fact its an ongoing actual show. 

To identify me  you can call me Guest EM.  I didn't mind your ranting nmcil!  I ramble too!


Apr 26 2009 06:16 am   #112Eowyn315
I just couldn't sit back and see that (even as a Spike or Spuffy fan) Spike take all the burden for half of that Season.
Not a single person in this thread has suggested that Spike should shoulder all of the burden here. However, I find it equally disingenuous to suggest that Buffy should take all of the blame, and as much as you say "they were both wrong," you don't seem to address anything Spike has done wrong. Spike did what he did because he was "trained"? He's not a puppy. He's a person with free will and the ability to make his own decisions, so yes, he has to bear some responsibility for his actions, no matter what came before or what may have influenced his decision.

Attempted rape is going there with the intention of rape in your mind.
Sorry, but that's just not true. You don't have to plan something out beforehand in order to attempt it. If a frat boy at a party tries to take advantage of a drunk girl, it's still attempted rape, even if he didn't get her drunk or go to the party with the intention to rape someone. Spike tried to force Buffy to have sex with him against her will and without her consent. It doesn't matter why he went there or what his intentions were beforehand. That's still attempted rape.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Apr 26 2009 02:21 pm   #113Guest
Not a single person in this thread has suggested that Spike should shoulder all of the burden here. However, I find it equally disingenuous to suggest that Buffy should take all of the blame, and as much as you say "they were both wrong," you don't seem to address anything Spike has done wrong. Spike did what he did because he was "trained"? He's not a puppy. He's a person with free will and the ability to make his own decisions, so yes, he has to bear some responsibility for his actions, no matter what came before or what may have influenced his decision.

I just can't agree with you Eowyn315.  I know exactly what he had done wrong.  He was trying to pull her into his world when in fact she already was.  She is a Slayer.  This is where the lines tend to blur because in fact it is fiction.  Every single one of your responses for some reason or other just pushed my buttons.  Then watching the Paley reunion once again was like another slap in the face.  You can have your opinions but I don't agree with how you saw how it went down in the show.  Each and every single person views the show in the way they see it.  Like some would say that Xander, Welp, is fandom when in fact going back you catch him saying it by watching it on closed caption.  These are just the problems with how it actually went down with the writing and the consistency.  You can certainly have your opinion but I don't agree with you on either comment.

Sorry, but that's just not true. You don't have to plan something out beforehand in order to attempt it. If a frat boy at a party tries to take advantage of a drunk girl, it's still attempted rape, even if he didn't get her drunk or go to the party with the intention to rape someone. Spike tried to force Buffy to have sex with him against her will and without her consent. It doesn't matter why he went there or what his intentions were beforehand. That's still attempted rape.

That is your opinion.  Victims, Survivors, and strongly opinionated individuals will just have to agree to disagree with you on this.  That right there condemned Buffy when she helped bring down the house with Spike because in my eyes, no matter what, she raped him.

It can happen to anyone!  I'm tired of the mentality that it only happens to women.  I'm a woman myself and yes I know exactly what attempted and actual rape feels like.  What I saw was not.  It was a poor excuse to get Buffy out of her situation of hating herself.

The writers tell us that Spike is soulless well you address that he's a person with free will and the ability to make his own decisions...In Buffy's eyes and what the writers wanted us to believe.  No he did not.  He knows he has free will she doesn't.  He is just an evil, disgusting, soulless thing to her.  As for the trained puppy comment.  I actually laughed at that comment.  She does treat him like a trained puppy because this is the mentality the writers gave about Spike!  That comes back to my comment about how we in this world are brought up to be.  It's all in ethics. 

I read something very similar to how I feel about my own upbringing.  I think JackofSpikes in her Penny for your..., she addresses so many cultural beliefs that I have to agree with them.  You are brought up in a family and act accordingly to how you are brought up in along with your own personal style.  Its the basis.  Kind of like the mixing in ingredient to a cake.  It's what you start off with.  So when I say trained.  I stick by it.  She did.  She trained him.  Not a puppy you say...Uh she certainly treated him as such.

You would be saying that a family who brings up a kid with homicidal like qualities they already posses did not train or raise their kid appropriately.  However, to them the homicidal family, it was correct.  You are throwing out half beliefs and ethics with this series.  It was just so wrong on so many levels.  Out of all those characters the one's who showed even half decency and realism were Joyce, and Tara. 

The thing is I know what its like to be brought up in a messy situation and then learn to change.  They didn't teach Spike a damn thing except exactly what he was, not who he could be.  She wasn't the only one to enforce this.  If your stating he's not a trained puppy then please tell me why did he stay when Buffy died?  Yeah, we know because of his promise to Buffy for Dawn.  Hello...She was dead.  He could have left.  Or they could have ended the series right there.  Like I said trained.  Trained to be what we saw.  To me that's an actor.    But you are more than welcome to your opinion.  This is just the way I see it.  Just like I want to pummel Mark Schwahn the creator of One Tree Hill for some of the plots he comes up with but its life...Its fun to watch and keeps you on your toes.  We will as an audience see things differently.  As an audience each of us perceive what we saw in different ways because hence, the way we were taught and what our beliefs are.  Plain and simple.

What I don't get is those who speak up, yes, they may be educated in the concepts of rape but some just don't know.  I can't call SR attempted rape because the emotion running in that bathroom was entirely devastation.  He stops because he's caught up in his mind when she oh after what seems like forever kicks him finally away.  She wasn't helpless!  They are trying to portray her as a heroine with strength, speed, and agility.  Then all of a sudden she isn't.  Whatever!  She was weak because of a fight?  Please.  I'm strongly opinionated when it comes to any form of rape.  Just as I am sure anybody who educates on it as well as those who have gone through it or have not.  It's all about the whole story.  I'm not deterring what people think and I don't appreciate when people question my own beliefs because I do know what it's like.  You do feel the loss of control.  I still don't have control and yes rape and attempted rape happened again with me.  Its not fun!  You feel helpless.  He didn't come with the intent either but he ended up actually raping.  This is why it urks me and pisses me the hell off with Season 6 because I had nothing concrete to go on because I was dating the guy who raped me.  It was inconclusive.  I have a daughter with him and now I have to see him on certain circumstances.  So yes.  I still have no control.  I lost that.  I am trying to gain it back.  (Just like Spike tried to, in my eyes) I have no problem voicing out to others because 'survivors voices' are best when heard.

Spike.Was.Horrified.  He wasn't thinking straight (plus he is supposedly soulless) and she taught him that the only way to feel was through sex.  I still think he had more of this supposed soul than Buffy did.  I clapped my a** off when he knew about the chip and they fought.  All those punches and abuse he took.  He wanted his own back.  Sorry I will just have to agree to disagree with you here.


May 21 2009 12:08 pm   #114spikes_wish
and she taught him that the only way to feel was through sex
Bull. the guy is nearly 150 years old- you really think he learnt everything about love and sex in the six months he had with Buffy?
He'd been shagging a woman who didn't love him for over a hundred years previous to even meeting Buffy.

And Rape is still rape, intent or not. You can still go to prison for manslaughter for hitting someone over the head with a frying pan if it kills them, even if you only meant to knock them out.

And Buffy's reaction was not dissimilar to many womens, superpowers or not.  People deal with rape differently, both during and in the aftermath- just because your experience may not correspond with Buffy's, doesn't mean her experience and reactions aren't realistic, or how some women may react.

ETA: And why does Buffy's reaction as a superhero have any bearing on whether or not Spike is commiting ( or attempting to commit) rape? She still said no, struggled, cried etc. Just because she didn't kick his arse doesn't mean Spike was somehow in the right. How the victim reacts shouldn't matter, as long as she is clearly not okay with the situation, and shouldn't have any bearing on the morality of Spike's reactions.

And the Smashed/Wrecked scene was not rape. Not once did he protest, or try to push her away once she initiated sexual contact, he kissed her back, and actually starts doing her against the wall after she impales herself on him, before they end up a floor below. If Spike had reacted differently to her advances and Buffy had ignored him, then it would have been rape. But she didn't, so it wasn't. What Spike did in SR was attempted rape- although it is a forgivable attempt- an attempt she at least appears to forgive him for, though we don't ever see her say it in so many words on screen. It's forgivable, firstly because we know he had no intention of hurting her when he turned up at her house. Second, because he was out of sorts, not really thinking clearly, and was finally breaking down after a tumultuous and damaging relationship with Buffy. Thirdly- how he reacts. If he hadn't have disappeared off to Africa to get a soul, or shown to make amends in some way ( or at least show some guilt over his actions), the writers wouldn't have been able to buy him back. But, he did, so we can understand and forgive.
May 21 2009 09:09 pm   #115nmcil

Trying to put another perspective in the discussion - WHY did the writers use the bathroom attempted rape, or however each reader wants to define it, as the plot device for the season ending.  The writers are very well aware of how provocative and how intense the viewer reaction was going to be.  Why use a sexual assault, not just any sexual assault, but one that brings with it all the cultural condemnations and complexity.  Do you think that this was a case of trying to manipulate the audience in addition to manipulating the characters and arc.  It was fair to assume that the vast majority of the audience was going to place the blame and responsibility for the attempted rape on Spike and place Buffy in the role of victim.  Again, the formula of mirror world conversion where the season long use of sex by Buffy to impose her needs on to Spike is converted into his needs but with such a horrific twist.  There were so many other ways that the writers could have dramatically emphasised their storyline demands to emphatically place Spike in the "Big Bad Boy Friend" category - so why use rape? 

As a writer, and taking into consideration  the season long sexual abuse and sexual dysfunction theme, was the use of the attempted rape a logical conclusion for all the powerful and extreme passions of the Spike-Buffy?  Irrespective of the personal moral and cultural judgements that we apply in our real world to rape, from the "craft" of writing and continuity with the extremely violent and abusive relationship  presented in the Buffy-Spike Sexual and Emotionally Abuse - were the writers justified in taking them to the SR bathroom scene tragedy?  Or, was it all just a horrible mistake in plot device and character treatment; an extreme treatment of plot device to make the African trials of transformation necessary? 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 22 2009 05:08 am   #116Scarlet Ibis
Do you think that this was a case of trying to manipulate the audience in addition to manipulating the characters and arc.
Yes--absolutely.

There were so many other ways that the writers could have dramatically emphasized their storyline demands to emphatically place Spike in the "Big Bad Boy Friend" category - so why use rape?
Their previous attempts at trying to convey Spike as "the big bad boyfriend" (e.g. the fake ass arms dealer arc) didn't work.  So they tried to switch it up, more or less saying, "Okay, you people can't possibly side with Spike now.  Ha!"  And yet that still didn't work for some of us.  Thinly veiled attempts.  Yawn.

As a writer, and taking into consideration the season long sexual abuse and sexual dysfunction theme, was the use of the attempted rape a logical conclusion for all the powerful and extreme passions of the Spike-Buffy?
I wouldn't have personally gone that route (or really any of the Spike/Buffy routes they took during season sex), but I could see that being a logical conclusion to the story they set up.  However, I don't see it as the only conclusion, particularly so since we never see how Spike leaves that bathroom, and what else they say to one another.

were the writers justified in taking them to the SR bathroom scene tragedy?
No, since they only did it as a means to an end to prove their point of Spike being "bad" in that season.

Or, was it all just a horrible mistake in plot device and character treatment; an extreme treatment of plot device to make the African trials of transformation necessary?
No--there were other ways to get Spike to get his soul, though if things had been different, I still think he was fully capable of making those changes on his own.  That aside, again, he totally could have willingly gone to get his soul under other circumstances.  It isn't that hard to think outside of the bleeding box, right?  Fan fic proves that several times over.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 22 2009 06:44 am   #117Maggie
And Rape is still rape, intent or not. You can still go to prison for manslaughter for hitting someone over the head with a frying pan if it kills them, even if you only meant to knock them out.

This for me is exactly the problem.  Murder is not manslaughter.  We are able to make distinctions.  First degree murder is a much more serious crime with much more serious penalties than is manslaughter.  But with this crime all we have is rape is rape.  Spike is guilty of something like the manslaughter version of rape -- but our language doesn't make the distinction.  And I think that's where a lot of the aggravation on this issue comes from.  Spike is not guilty of intentionally and brutally trying to rape Buffy.  So when people say rape is rape, people sensitive to the mitigating circumstances rightly feel like the charge is overstated.  At the same time, he certainly committed some kind of crime.  So when people plead for mitigation, it can sound like a plea to completely exonerate him -- and that misses the mark in the other direction.  I think that's why these conversations get so frustrating all around.

Back to murder v. manslaughter -- we totally think that the person's intent has a lot to do with how serious the crime is.  Even though in both cases the victim is dead.  So the argument about how it's the same from the victim's pov doesn't really capture everything in play.  With other crimes we care about intent.  Why not with this one?  (Just another way of expressing my frustration with the rape is rape argument).
May 22 2009 06:53 am   #118Scarlet Ibis
Back to murder v. manslaughter -- we totally think that the person's intent has a lot to do with how serious the crime is. Even though in both cases the victim is dead. So the argument about how it's the same from the victim's pov doesn't really capture everything in play. With other crimes we care about intent. Why not with this one? (Just another way of expressing my frustration with the rape is rape argument).
Yes--that.  Thank you.

ETA:  Textbook definition of attempted rape?  Yes.  Was there an incredible of amount of else going on there?  Yes.  Intent, in our society, matters.  Intent should matter.  Someone's talking on their cell phone, not paying attention, hits a pedestrian and kills them.  Will they be charged with murder in the first degree, second degree, or vehicular manslaughter?  Right then.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 23 2009 02:47 pm   #119spikes_wish
Whatever- you can still be punished for killing someone, intentional or not, so we clearly still regard them as morally culpable for their actions, we just *understand* that intent does make adifference, so punish them accordingly.

Which is why Spike can be forgiven, because we understand his intent and his mindset at the time, both from his actions previous and post crime. But what he did was still a crime, and he is still morally culpable for it.

Besides, he may not have intended to hurt Buffy when he arrived, as we can all agree. Even when he was attacking her it is clear from the audiences POV that he didn't fully comprehend what he was doing. However, he didn't 'accidentally' almost rape her, he didn't slip or anything, so some intention was at least in his mind for a moment.
May 24 2009 12:51 am   #120Maggie
Whatever- you can still be punished for killing someone, intentional or not, so we clearly still regard them as morally culpable for their actions, we just *understand* that intent does make adifference, so punish them accordingly.

Well, that's pretty much what I said -- Spike committed some crime.  It's just  that whereas we have words to distinguish between manslaughter and murder, we don't have comparable terms for rape.  The "rape is rape" argument would seem to want to say that unlike other crimes, when it comes to rape we don't make the sorts of distinctions we make with the very serious act of killing someone.  That's the argument I object to.

Which is why Spike can be forgiven, because we understand his intent and his mindset at the time, both from his actions previous and post crime. But what he did was still a crime, and he is still morally culpable for it.

We have different understandings of what forgiveness is.   For me it's not about justice such that some people "deserve" it and others don't.  I'm more with Giles -- we forgive because the  person needs it.   Though forgiveness can't really be forgiveness (I don't think) if the person receiving it doesn't realize it's needed.  So there needs to be something like remorse.  And in Spike's case there clearly was.  To repeat, I believe Spike committed a crime and was responsible for it.  I just don't have a name for the crime. 

Besides, he may not have intended to hurt Buffy when he arrived, as we can all agree. Even when he was attacking her it is clear from the audiences POV that he didn't fully comprehend what he was doing. However, he didn't 'accidentally' almost rape her, he didn't slip or anything, so some intention was at least in his mind for a moment.

We don't know this, actually.  To think he had intent at any minute requires that we believe that he knew she really was telling him to stop and that he decided to continue anyway.   I think reasonable people can argue about this.  From where I sit, he was drunk and in bad shape.  In addition, her normal way of conveying to him  "no and I really mean it" was with violence.   It's as though she always spoke to him in English and then for some unknown reason told him to stop in Russian.  Even if Spike understands Russion, his expectation of her speaking in English plus being drunk could have made him not fully understand what she was saying.   The words he uses are consistent with both states of mind (in the heat of the moment he does know she really wants him to stop and doesn't; or it never fully registers that she really means it).   The fact that at best he had the intent for a moment, and that's not a hard fact are big parts of why if I'm on the jury I'm only willing to convict him of "manslaughter".  I have reasonable doubt that it was ever intentional.  That said, manslaughter is a crime.  It's reckless action that leads to very bad results.   Spike doesn't hardly get a pass from me on this.   And I'm glad it made him feel guilty enough to go after the soul.  He really hadn't been hearing her or understanding her for sometime, and this just put about fifteen exclamation points on how messed up his "love" was. 
May 24 2009 02:52 am   #121Guest
I have commented on this and I still stick by what I say.  Points have clearly been indicated that Spike was wrong and while clearly it seems on the attempted Rape side, Buffy was not in any form looked closely at by her actions.  The 'SR' episode clearly washes her hands clean of anything wrong that she did.

Again the reason I bring Real Life to this is simple on terms of what is attempted, rape, or even the violence of rape.  I have done EMDR sessions.  Like Hypnosis but not.  Hypnosis has the tendency in my opinion to be extremely dangerous.  The reason I bring this up...Well having been a survivor of any case of a crime...I clearly see both sides.  EMDR brings out the feelings and the memories but you remember them.  I will bring up later some horrible words that I use for my sessions that are triggers.  See even the first used Spike and his trigger was his mother but they used a good memory which really now watching it pissed me off.  Like how could they do that!  Then you see the whole Wood scene and then you go ah now there is the Spike we all know and love!

Everyone has the potential to have the intent to do some crime.  Everyone.  Even as a woman I will say a woman has the intent to do the crime.  I don't paint Spike a pretty picture that 'oh he is wonderful and that he could do no wrong.'  He did have his own past with some gruesome told crimes but we do have to take into consideration, he is a vampire!  I agree with most that Joss took the whole soul/soulless thing a bit too far.  We just don't know.  A lot of it is based on here say or what we think we know.

The reason I bring this up is that after reading up and going through my own issues that its not easy to change.  Clearly Spike tried.  He was acting more soulful than Buffy was.  In one moment he lost his sanity.  This is why I won't exonerate him into even suggesting intent or attempted.  He dissociated!  He was fed lines:

You are beneath me, You are disgusting, You're an evil thing, You are convenient, You are dead inside, You feel nothing inside, You can't love.

Shall I go on?  This to me is like someone at an early age being fed - You are worthless, You are ugly, You are nothing in this world without me, You will never amount to anything, You aren't good enough.  I will get the arguement that he is a soulless vampire...PLEASE sing us a new one...He was trying albeit his way needed some improvement but he nonetheless was trying.

Constantly being fed this when you try so hard to please them.  This is why I discredit the writers when they bring the soulless issue.  What Spike did was devastating.  Do I blame him...No.  He reacted exactly like an abused partner reacted.  I actually would have done the same thing.  After no therapy and being repeatedly told that I'm nothing.  You bet your ass this is how it starts.  I could not find a mere amount of sympathy in my bones for Buffy.  She was guilty of assault.  She was guilty of domestic violence.

The only thing I find Spike guilty for is letting her.  For letting her take away his passionate personality.  It's like this.  When you are in a relationship...Doesn't it ever creep into your mind how much you both start acting like each other.  Well in this case because Buffy was misery loves company Spike reacted to this.  For every action Buffy gave Spike reacted.  SR he was out of his mind!  Not to mention drunk as a skunk!  Does this exuse?  Absolutely not, but he was dealing with his emotions the only way he could.  What I will never get is why she continued the conversation in the first place.  She was always kicking his ass out the door even exhausted and worn out, but this time she didn't?  THIS was bad writing.  It wasn't consistent.

I remarked in earlier posts.  He didn't go there with the intent.  It's not like he went there and said I'll make her see me.  He went there to apologize!  He felt bad.  This is what I don't get.  Intent to me is someone who literally goes there to cause trouble.  To try to hurt.  Doesn't have a clear cut plan but the intent is there.  I didn't see intent to hurt.  I saw a vampire/man who was twisted and in pain by Buffy react.  This is why I couldn't even as a survivor myself even contemplate Spike attempting to rape Buffy.

It's hard to get out of the frame of mind that has been constantly grilled into your head about who and what you are.  It's not easy.  Some flip and some manage to find a good life for themselves and some are still finding their way.  This is why I could not just base an opinion on one episode and see Spike at fault.  I placed that fault on them both getting together.  Then I place blame on Buffy for 'literally' screwing his mind.  She is the classic example of an subtle abuser and one to get away with it.  Hmm maybe I should go see the new movie Obsession...Now there is a woman who clearly is twisted!!!  Sometimes I ponder why I ship Spuffy, but then I look at the actors and the chemistry between them both on screen before the damage was done, and I think as writers we can get it better than was actually seen.  This is why I love fanfiction so much now lol!  We can get it right!

Ok done ranting lol....

EM


May 24 2009 05:35 am   #122Scarlet Ibis
In addition, her normal way of conveying to him "no and I really mean it" was with violence. It's as though she always spoke to him in English and then for some unknown reason told him to stop in Russian. Even if Spike understands Russion, his expectation of her speaking in English plus being drunk could have made him not fully understand what she was saying.
That was quite a brilliant way of saying that.  I'll get to that in a second--

I remarked in earlier posts. He didn't go there with the intent. It's not like he went there and said I'll make her see me. He went there to apologize! He felt bad. This is what I don't get. Intent to me is someone who literally goes there to cause trouble. To try to hurt. Doesn't have a clear cut plan but the intent is there. I didn't see intent to hurt.
Yes--when he finally realized what she meant, he looks horrified.  Had his intent been to hurt her in any shape or form, he wouldn't have looked horrified at slightly succeeding.  In fact, a logical reaction to Spike purposely trying to do something would be to smile/smirk/sneer, make a biting remark, then try again.  But instead, he looks horrified, followed by a, "My god, I didn't..." know.  As it's been stated countless times, how could he possibly know that Buffy meant "no," when her typical way of communicating with him "no" for the last two years was a punch in the face?  Two years(eta: When I say "two," I do not mean two years straight, but her whole "Punch Spike in the face when I'm annoyed/want him to stop doing something" thing began in season 5, and not season six)--before the sex, before the kissing, before her second death.  "No" from Buffy was never the word itself until that bathroom scene.

Sometimes I ponder why I ship Spuffy
I only ship Spuffy in fan fic.  Canon wise?  Hell naw.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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May 24 2009 08:58 pm   #123spikes_wish
Anyone whose watched any TV ever knows that Rape isn't about sex. It's about power. And whilst Spike may not be intending to rape her, he was trying to get control over a situation in which he feels he has no power over. This actually isn't an uncommon occurence in their relationship- they spend most of it in a struggle for control- Spike, as soon as he finds out he can hit Buffy, goes straight for the jugular ('you came back wrong'), and after Smashed/Wrecked Spike's all about getting his rocks back blah blah blah. Buffy, exhibits hers more harshly (bot because what she says is necessarily worse, but because she knows Spike loves her) calling him worthless, convenient. I'm not going to include the alley scene, as that was a scene (like it or not) that wasn't primarily to do with Spike. As I have said a dozen times before, she is still responsible, and I still judge her harshly for it, however it doesn't seem to relate to the idea of their power struggle with each other.

By the time Seeing Red comes around, Spike's lost the only thing he had over her in which to push her into admitting the feelings he hopes she has for him - her friends now know about their relationship. She no longer needs him 'to feel', he's been ostracized from the group completely after Anya, he's been drinking, and Buffy rejects him one last time which is clearly shown to break him. So, he snaps, and grapples for control over his situation. Which manifests as controlling Buffy. Through sex- which in a way makes some sense, as up until now, that has been the only control he's had over their relationship. And so he tries to get it back the only way he knows how.

May 24 2009 10:41 pm   #124Scarlet Ibis
pike, as soon as he finds out he can hit Buffy, goes straight for the jugular ('you came back wrong'), and after Smashed/Wrecked Spike's all about getting his rocks back blah blah blah.
Not true--he only confronts Buffy after she leaves the Magic Box in "Smashed" after she didn't bother to see him, and after she punches him in the face.  Had Buffy acted like a normal person, or at least, not hit him to exert her power, maybe he wouldn't have spouted off with the "came back wrong" business.  The "getting his rocks" back statement?  Post her "disgust/perverse/degrading" comments.

And you keep saying she knows Spike loves her.  Well, what does that really matter if she believes that love is only real for him, an unreal thing?  See "Entropy" again if you don't know what I'm talking about.

And disagree entirely with your view of the alley scene.  Of course it was about her power over Spike.  Are you trying to tell me that Buffy was so lost or whatever, that had that been oh say...Xander or Willow or Riley or hell, even Angel instead of Spike, they would have had a broken face afterwards, as she just walked away to leave one of them there?  Most of the people I just named wouldn't have even gotten the first punch like Spike did, and even if they did get hit?  She would have stopped after the first one.  Rewatch her fight with Faith in "Consequences."  Faith, who is just as strong as she is, only gets hit the one time, and their conversation is parallel to her conversation with Spike in that alley.  Buffy seems to have selective violence, over the one person who she knows she has control over.  Everything else was out of her control in her life, but she knew she could count on ol' doormat Spike.  That for Buffy, was about power.

Through sex- which in a way makes some sense, as up until now, that has been the only control he's had over their relationship.

We only see Spike seek Buffy out for sex like three times, and it was still on her terms.  A sexual relationship that began with her impaling herself on him, no less.  He didn't have much power there either.  And therefore, the bathroom scene was not about a power struggle, which is ludicrous since the one with more power in the relationship and in physical strength was Buffy and not Spike, but about an emotional breakdown.
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May 25 2009 10:47 am   #125Guest
Ok so I didn't really pay attention to who actually writes the episodes and such before.  Well, I did a lil checksee!!!  It appears that the two very crucial episodes that have all our knickers in a knot are written by Steven S. DeKnight.  Now what I don't get is how Marti got her view point into Steven's writing????  He wrote the Dead Things episode and the Seeing Red Episode.  Ok sure, all of them have input on it but he has the credit for it.

I keep hearing about Noxious having her own issues backing these scenes up and what I don't get is why she isn't credited for this episode in the first place?  First off even if she was in this position I have to question it because I still stand by SPIKE.WAS.HORRIFIED.

Buffy as usual and in character was disgusted.  She was not in anyway battered in my opinion.  She STILL held the control.  I saw nothing resembling a struggle for power.  I agree with Scarlet.  It was about an emotional breakdown.  This episode took Spike way out of character.  He is more in your face and up front and honest.  Not desperate and begging.  This was so out of character for him, that it wasn't even funny!  Not even when he lost Dru was he that low.  Not even when he got chipped.

I read something interesting when I went to search who wrote the episodes and while looking at Seeing Red someone makes a comment about the attempted rape scene.  (I still can't see it as attempted rape but I will go with it)  They said vampires don't rape humans...Uh how did we know that?  It wasn't suggested except with Dru from Angelus.  We knew Spike was all fight to the death and he was imo more honorable yet scarey.  Yet I took Spike out of this situation and placed lets say Angelus in this situation and found myself saying 'oh yeah he would definitely attempt or actually rape Buffy'  whereas Spike was upfront and just went in for the kill.  This was so out of character for Spike.  Actually out of all the writers I think I liked David Fury's writing the best.  Just off topic :)

EM
May 25 2009 05:23 pm   #126nmcil
said vampires don't rape humans...Uh how did we know that? It wasn't suggested except with Dru from Angelus. We knew Spike was all fight to the death and he was imo more honorable yet scarey. Yet I took Spike out of this situation and placed lets say Angelus in this situation and found myself saying 'oh yeah he would definitely attempt or actually rape Buffy' whereas Spike was upfront and just went in for the kill. This was so out of character for Spike. Actually out of all the writers I think I liked David Fury's writing the best. Just off topic :)

The question is answered in the Spike-Clem scene when Spike is trying to understand what and who who is now  - this scene is also an excellent connect back to their original tragic start of the season's violent sex with Buffy's taunts about his not being a vamp and not being a man - he is nothing.  All these wonderful connects in the scripts is one of the reason I loved the series - so many things that the viewers have to connect.

Spike:  What have I done? Why didn't I do it? What has she done to me?

Here is another great question about Buffy and her high moral ground - what are we suppose to think about a woman that would use another person so mercilessly for her own needs?  What is lower, actually accepting that she could love Spike or that she can use him for nothing more than a live sex toy?  Does her depression and emotional trauma excuse her behavior?

Spike:  We were never together. Not really. She never lower herself that far.


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
May 25 2009 10:09 pm   #127Guest
Here is another great question about Buffy and her high moral ground - what are we suppose to think about a woman that would use another person so mercilessly for her own needs? What is lower, actually accepting that she could love Spike or that she can use him for nothing more than a live sex toy? Does her depression and emotional trauma excuse her behavior?

You're very neutral in regards to this topic?  You really look at the whole spectrum.  The last part of your question had me pausing because if this situation was real it would go so far as an excuse until it was just plain being over used.  I really thought about this and depression happens, but that doesn't excuse the mother not taking care of her child only to lose them because she didn't when she literally fell on hard times.

The last thing is what I had a problem with.  I know I should be all about the powerful and strong individual who is a woman, but after seeing the whole series.  I couldn't.  So him stating that She never lower herself that far to me insinuates she wouldn't love him.  They had Spike such a strong villian then had him transform to be such a hero but at such a tremendous risk of losing himself over a high and mighty woman with a stake up her arse.  I missed that Spike.  That Spike was funny.  Buffy took Spike down even further.  This is what I don't agree with. 

What this question really should be stating is who had the most Power and Control because in that case I would say Buffy held that.  She held that in all of her relationships in Canon.  Parker isn't worth mentioning. Riley's fear was she was the Slayer and he would never be enough for her.  Angel well I have my opinions on that relationship, but if I have to she controlled most of that relationship. This is why character wise I was partial to Spike, Tara, and even Anya.

Relationship wise there wasn't a healthy relationship.  There was almost always something wrong in every romantic relationship but that's just the drama of the show.  The friendships were almost completely destroyed at some time or other but then strengthened all except for one...Spike and Dawn.

This was so off topic but if you really wanted to get down to the nitty gritty of the couples...They were all lacking and either had some form of power and controll within the relationship.  The couples were all doomed from the start if you ask me.  The show wasn't about the couples it was about the messages and that I found rather harsh to do if you ask me.  Because ultimately the message sent out was power and controll.  This was my problem with the series as a whole.  But I still feel quite strongly that Buffy is guilty of many crimes and not just committed on Spike.

EM




May 26 2009 03:17 am   #128Scarlet Ibis
I know I should be all about the powerful and strong individual who is a woman
Why?

I understand what the character Buffy was supposed to represent--those adjectives you just used.  The thing is, she didn't.  And just because she's a woman and physically strong, that shouldn't make anyone feel obligated to side with her or identify with her.  I don't.  A compelling, sympathetic character is just that--regardless of color or gender or whatever.  I feel no obligation whatsoever to identify with Buffy on the flimsy basis of her being a (literally) strong woman, and I don't get why anyone should. 

As for the whole healthy relationship thing, well, there was Gunn and Fred, and even though it wasn't sexual, Spike and Angel in s5 of Ats.  Oh, and Willow and Oz.  Just because they didn't last didn't mean they weren't good while they ran.  Huh, with that in mind, Cordelia and Xander.  Gosh, he screwed up horribly there...
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May 26 2009 03:23 am   #129Guest
The last thing is what I had a problem with. I know I should be all about the powerful and strong individual who is a woman, but after seeing the whole series. I couldn't. So him stating that She never lower herself that far to me insinuates she wouldn't love him.

And this is an examples of the oftentimes illogical of the character treatments - this line would seemingly place Spike as having known all along that Buffy would not love him, the logic of the words places him in the position of "being the party in denial and forcing his love on her"  coming when it does directly after SR, it places even more emphasis on Spike the "VERY Bad Boyfriend."   But we  know that Buffy has repeatedly engaged willingly in their sexual encounters and has also forced those encounters for her own self-centered needs.  This line leaves their characters in total confusion because we know the reality of their dysfunctional relationship is that Buffy is very much co-equal in all their troubles and, IMO, the primary party of responsibility. 

The writers manipulated the Spike character so much - he has to play the role of "BEST Devoted Sacrificial Lamb" with Glory, he has to also take on the role of "Love's Bitch" desperately and completely devoted to Buffy.  While all this goes on, he is again given the role of physically violent co-equal in "Smashed," plus he is also Buffy's Personal Punching Bag for all her emotional anger and twisted self-image.  But the one thing that I always see with his character is that he suffers from his great capacity to love - when he wakes up from his "love scene dreamscapes" in "Out Of My Mind" we know with a doubt that Spike knows that his capacity to love has brought him terrible pain.  It's not for nothing that he dreams of being staked through the heart by Buffy.  This is a man/vamp that has suffered a great deal of pain and sorrow from his love.

BUFFY: Spike ... I want you.

SPIKE: Buffy, I love you. God, I love you so much.

(Cut to Spike sitting up in bed with a gasp, horrified.)

SPIKE: Oh, god, no. Please, no.







Buffy has also known great pain and sorrows from her love, but it has turned her into a very hard and cruel woman with Spike.  It was unfortunate, if it is true, that Marti Noxon used her real life experience for the attempted rape scene because their was not any supporting story for the Spike character to justify the extreme resolution for their relationship and force the soul arc.
May 26 2009 03:37 am   #130Scarlet Ibis
this line would seemingly place Spike as having known all along that Buffy would not love him
I don't think it implied him knowing it all along, so much as finally realizing that that was the case.

This line leaves their characters in total confusion because we know the reality of their dysfunctional relationship is that Buffy is very much co-equal in all their troubles and, IMO, the primary party of responsibility.
The problem is that Spike knew in his heart that he would never hurt her, no matter what she did or said to him.  Knowing that he did, twice on accident (sleeping with Anya, emotionally, and somehow physically in that bathroom),  Spike is confused because that's just not how he operates with someone that he loves.  So for Spike, he sees himself as "the very bad boyfriend," which would make sense.  Why the writers believed that the whole audience should see it that way too after following the storyline for the whole season was stupid IMO.
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May 26 2009 10:04 pm   #131Guest
I don't think it implied him knowing it all along, so much as finally realizing that that was the case.

Thanks for posting this - I'm been thinking about that line more and I realized that what I meant was just as you state - he comes to the conclusion and Buffy would not allow herself to be with him because she did think he was beneath her and not good enough for her - add all that to her mental state and extreme anger, which she always put back on Spike - and he pretty much has to make this conclusion. 

For some reason my name is not being applied to my post - that was my post -

nmcil