The writers have been setting up Spike as "the fall guy" for all the shit that happens in Buffy's life - his William Pratt name is perfect.  Even when he tries to help himself and move away from his desperate love and need of Buffy - he get hooked in by the machinations of women and how women want to use him.  And while Spike could totally not have chosen to drink with Anya, being in his own emotional hell he falls into Anya scheme of USING HIM for her own agenda.  The writers just never give this character a break.  Instead of letting Spike have some dignity and compassion for what the character must have been feeling, he gets to be the Big Bad Boy Friend plot device fodder for the other characters that are equally screwing up their own lives. 

I say again, that the writers treated Anya very badly - forget all the efforts for trying to learn how to live within the human world, and just throw out that her beautiful and final marriage vows - At least the character is allowed to end this terrible mistake she makes by retracting her desire for vengeance on Xander.  Spike "the outsider," at the ending scene is portrayed as mean spirited without honor or self-respect.  With that one perfectly timed line " It was good enough for Buffy.. "  the writers take most of any sympathy viewers had for his emotional need and pain. 

Buffy and Anya have just committed the same sins and the real horror of the emotional devastation that Spike must have felt at the moment upon  hearing those words becomes obscured with all the fury and angry words.  Spike goes into the Magic Shop wanting nothing more than to do the right thing - find some way of 'moving on" and instead ends up as - the guy that makes all the wrong choices and taking the blame from Buffy and the responsibility for errors made.

Who are we suppose to have sympathy for - the two demons that want only to find some temporary solace from their human inflicted pain or the White Hats that gutted and ripped out the hearts of their partners?  I had a really hard time finding much sympathy for Xander or Buffy in this episode - frankly, they came over as whining self-centered and selfish. 

 

I'm so glad I'm not dating Anya, those wishes were so awful. Imagine if she was capable of granting a wish to herself? Xander wouldn't have existed…. So much would have changed…

because he doesn't want to grow up to be just like his parents. So, what does he do? Start drinking.

I agree. He doesn't wanna end up like his parents, but he surely acts like them in the episode by being a drunken, verbally and physically abusing jerk. That's what depression does in the BtVS, I guess.

After looking at the later scene with Anya, where he wants to start dating or shacking up or whatever he wants, I came to the conclusion that he doesn't actually love her.

I've always thought that Xander's intentions in Hell's Bells weren't about breaking up with Anya. He wanted to stop the wedding, not their relationship. But he did a lousy job explaining himself to Anya. It reminds me of his scene with Faith, when he tried to tell her he was there to help her, but she misunderstood him thinking he was there for sex.

And if Xander didn't love Anya, he wouldn't have gone crazy with the axe. Just saying. :)

It really doesn't make sense that Spike would have a camera

He already used a camera in Halloween to spy on something (don't remember the ep)

Halfrek - Why doesn't she slam Hank with a couple thousand paper cuts?

And Tony Harris, and Mrs. Rosenberg, and Faith's mother, and Tara's father... Halfrek is a lousy "justice" demon.

Also, how is it that she never figures out that Spike and Buffy are an item?

Because they're not Xander. Her entire focus is Xander, anyone else? They could rot in hell for all she cares. She won't learn how to love others until S7, I guess.

What amazed me more was that the people writing the show expected me to side with Buffy and Xander. And I couldn't. They're not just self-centered, they were mean spirited too.

Who said we were supposed to sympathize with Buffy and Xander? Always thought that the point would be about sympathizing with Spike and Anya. That's how the scenes were written.

With that one perfectly timed line "It was good enough for Buffy.. "  the writers take most of any sympathy viewers had for his emotional need and pain.  I took that line to be meant for Buffy as in why haven’t you told them? How can you be so cruel to me? 

then who cares if they knew she was sleeping with Spike, then why not sleep with him?  Buffy is right not to sleep with Spike, it would only be leading him on when she isn’t prepared to love him or accept love from him. It’s wrong and she knows it. 

Anya lost her identity.  Anya wasn't done "baking."  I’ve always hated the theory (see my previous rants on this subject) that being in a loving relationship was not part of the baking process. Nothing jerks you into maturity faster than a spouse and family. She still had an identity (no matter what bilge Joss put out in later shows). She had a successful business, she was an attractive woman. Wait!  She had a high school diploma from Sunnydale High!  She didn’t need Xander half as much as he needed her.

I just thought she meant it in a "Spike doesn't count, so of course it'd be three and not four" kind of way.  When I first saw the scene, I thought Buffy was trying to hide the number of men she’d had sex with, so didn’t want Anya to start thinking about who Number Four might be.

[Spike having sex with Anya.] There was no malicious intent behind that.  I think there was some, from his comment that they are “moving on.” He’s worked himself into a drunken meanie, so I think there’s a twinge of anger and payback there.  I'll show her that I don't care.

Then it turned to shit again with her "he was just there" comment.    That comment was unbelievably cold. Poor Spike, everybody wants to have sex with him, but nobody wants to love him and stand up for him. Anya should have told Xander to drop dead.  And, so should Buffy.

What, he considered himself to be Anya's penis ride?  Yes, I think that is part of his problem. She is so focused on sex that if they miss a single night, she goes crazy. He’s got to be wondering what it’s going to be like in the future if he has ahem performance issues.  Maybe he thinks that being an ex-demon she isn't capable of love. (Like Spike?)

Why would anyone feel sympathy for Buffy or Xander?  I did feel sympathy for Buffy. Buffy is finding out that she isn’t so lacking in feelings for Spike as she thought. If Spike had picked some unknown person, it might not have been so bad for her (like Tarantula), but Anya is close to the inner circle. Xander – not so much with the sympathy.  He tries to kill Spike.  Buffy, who is hurting just as much, saves Spike even though he's hurt her. 

He wanted to stop the wedding, not their relationship.  Xander wants his relationship with Anya on the cheap. He reminds me of Gunn deciding he wants to be a brilliant lawyer without ever cracking open a book and letting somebody give him a brain floop instead. Jerk.

And if Xander didn't love Anya, he wouldn't have gone crazy with the axe.  Yeah he would, because it’s Spike. Xander hates Spike. He may or may not love Anya, but he sure doesn’t want Spike touching her.   Or Buffy.

He already used a camera in Halloween to spy on something (don't remember the ep)  Completely forgot about that, but still that was just a single camera, not a complicated set up like the gnome. Spike occasionally shows that he’s able to use technology (he breaks into the University and looks up Buffy’s dorm room number on their computer), but that kind of set up is beyond the casual user. 

this is all followed up with the big reconciliation between Buffy and Xander and once again what to me are "the sacred characters" are again placed on the right side of all the crap that happened - and that happened by their direct action.

I actually love Entropy and Seeing Red. All four characters were awful and sympathetic, none was the saint, and none was the villain. We see a Buffy who acted all smug and uncaring about Spike moving on -probably thinking he's not capable of doing it- only to have her heart twist with pain when he actually attempts to. We see a Xander so blinded by rage and hurt beating someone who can't fight back and insulting two women he loves. We see a Spike so full of hurt losing control and hurting the woman he loves. We see an Anya who seemed to have learned nothing from her humanity, losing herself in a moment of anger and hurt, and keeps granting wishes to wronged females.

But those characters aren't one dimensional villains, they're so human with their flaws and good qualities, we see Buffy and Xander admit their mistakes, apologize to each other, and remind one another how they love each other. We see Spike regret what he did and try to amend it. We see Anya stopping Spike from hurting Xander even though he just talked cruelly to her.

Loving those characters help understanding them and sympathizing with them, even if they were so awfully wrong. *hugs Buffy, Xander, Spike and Anya*
 

I know I'm WAY late in joining the dicussion, but I was just surfing the forum and felt the need to contribute.

This is one of my fav episodes, or at least my fav depressing one. It's probably considered blasphemous on a Spuffy site, but I like Spike and Anya as a couple. I really do, and if it had gone that way instead of Spuffy after this episode, I would have been okay with that- nobody shoot me okay? lol

The converstaion between Spike and Anya brings tears to my eyes everytime I see it. They're my two favorite characters, and to see them hurt so badly and callously by the 'good guys'. Whoever said that they thought Spike had finally given up on Buffy by the time he got to the magic box, I completely agree. To me, it seemed like he was finally doing something pro active for himself, even if it was resorting to magic to get rid of his feelings, or at least numb them. In my opinion, good on him. And when he just sits there and waits for Xander to kill him? Heartbreaking to see how far down he is- even when Dru left him, he was all loud and sulky, now he has a death wish. It just shows that not only has he given up on Buffy, he's just given up.

And poor Anya. How did Xander ever think he was going to make it right? How do you expect someone to accept 'sorry I left you at the alter, but let's go back to dating now"? Anya going back to vengence demon, imo, is like Spike trying to get a spell to make his feelings go away. Maybe not the best choice and it was probably done in the heat of the moment, but can anyone blame her? For over a thousand years she was a vengence demon, and we see in her flashback episodes (can't remember the name and am too lazy to get up and look), she was HAPPY as a demon. It makes sense that, when she's miserable, she'd turn to something that made her happy. I even understand her wish to get vengence on Xander- there's not a woman out there that wouldn't to get back at the jerk who left her at the alter.

I hated how Anya had that he was there line. It was so much more than that- there was a connection there, even if it was never going to be anything more than comfort sex. They were in complete understanding of each other, and that's hard to come by. If they hadn't, there probably wouldn't have been the sex. And yes, there was vengence in there, but it was more personal vengence. It wasn't like they were (probably) going to let anyone else know what had happened. It's not like they knew they were being recorded, and that Willow would pick that exact moment to hack into the feed. It was their way of excersing demons (pun intended).

Random question, why couldn't Hallie grant Anya's wish? Was it because she was a demon, or because Hallie only did it to bad parents? Speaking of bad parents and the paper cut comment about Hank Summers- why the hell did Buffy never sue for child support? That would have been a source of income that would have helped, and her father would have no choice to pay it legally.

Back on topic now (lol), I feel no sympathy for Buffy or Xander. More like a 'ha!'. Buffy broke up with Spike, told him (rather callously) to move on. Xander left Anya at the alter- they lost the right to be the injured party in the whole affair. Yeah, they were hurt, but honestly, nowhere near as badly as Spike and Anya were hurting. Spike did exactly what Buffy told him to do, which is why when Dawn comes to his crypt and then with when Buffy was being pissy about it in SR, I wish that Spike had just told Buffy that she had no right to be angry, and really he had no obligation to apologize (hmmm....I see a plot bunny in the future). And as for Xander, you don't talk like that to someone you love, no matter how furious you are. The things he said to her were SO out of line- he made her sound like a whore. At least Anya doesn't go all out with an apology, even if she does make excuses (I personally wouldn't have done that, but that's just me).

So there you have it- Niori's late coming thoughts on Entrophy.