Okay - I blew right past Seeing Red because it got discussed pretty thoroughly in a recent thread and also because it makes a lot of people really upset.  Like me.

Xander forgives Buffy for sleeping with Spike and Willow doesn't - Why is this?  It shows some big development on Xander's part.  The writers could have had him be mad at Buffy for not sleeping with Spike and keeping him distracted and away from Anya.  So, maybe the Buffy torch is still burning for Xander.  Skipping ahead to Two to Go - Willow berates Buffy for "screwing a vampire" so she could feel. 

Africa Demon/Cave paintings - Is the Africa Demon that Spike goes to visit been causing all this trouble?  The cave paintings all related to Sunnydale - First is a face with blood - Tara.  Then a black hand - Willow.  A flayed body - Warren.  A face with its mouth sewn up - Warren again.  Last one is Warren shooting Buffy.  Spike asks if the demon did the paintings?

Xander/Anya - When Xander finds out that Anya is a vengeance demon again, he tattles to Buffy, then has attitude and taunts Anya.  (Buffy doesn't seem to care.)  Anya, in spite of being all demony, agrees to help Willow.

Spike/Warren connection - They both express the "she deserved it, the bitch" sentiment.  I suppose this is to confuse the audience about what exactly Spike is up to by comparing him to Warren.

Flaying Thing - okay, what sort of sick person thinks something like that up?  I could see Willow shooting him, even whacking him up with an ax, cause it's handy, but flaying?  Ew. 

Spike's gone - Wow, Buffy is upset!  Spike left without telling her!  And, she still trusts him with her little sister.  Xander is right - Buffy shouldn't leave her little sister with Spike under the circumstances. 

Cool and uncool things:

Cool - Willow sucking the magic books up.  I loved that.  The veiny thing was lame.
Cool - Spike gets to Africa on a motorcycle in a week. 
Cool - Spike checks out the cave paintings and they are all what is happening back in SunnyD.
Uncool - What happened to Fashion Buffy?  She looks like she's been living in a cardboard box with those tatty jeans and that hoody.
Cool - Hot guys have bare chests (Spike, Angel, Xander, Oz) - Bad guys have hair - Warren.  Okay okay - I know that Giles has chest hair, but he's old so he doesn't count.
Uncool - The eyeball thing - I first saw this in a 1950's movie called Brain from Planet Arous with John Agar.  (Check it out - a cheerfully vicious space alien who wants to have sex with Earth women. Who does that sound lik)  Couldn't they think of something else?
Uncool - The whole hospital scene was just wrong wrong wrong.  Sure, hospitals always let people look in the window and they do major surgery without even cutting your shirt off.  That could happen.
Uncool - Anya is wearing the ugliest pants on this or any other planet.  Except maybe the spotted ones Buffy wore in Innocence which practically deserve a lifetime achievement award.

Skipping ahead to Two to Go - Willow berates Buffy for "screwing a vampire" so she could feel.
I don't think Willow was berating her so much as stating a fact in a blunt manner.  Willow didn't care about her sleeping with Spike--she didn't believe it to be true until Tara told her, but she didn't freak out and be all "Oh--I must shun Buffy for her shame!" or nothing.  Willow was the only one who genuinely liked Spike and didn't give him any crap.  And Dawn for awhile there.

Is the Africa Demon that Spike goes to visit been causing all this trouble?
Never noticed that before--will have to watch that scene again.  Maybe he was a psychic demon or something?  He knew what Spike had come for after all, right?

Anya, in spite of being all demony, agrees to help Willow.
You mean agree to help stop Willow, right?  After she flays Warren anyway.  The thing is this--Anya as a demon and Anya not as a demon?  Same gal.  Her soul is still there.  The only difference is the ability to grant wishes, super strength, that ugly other face, and her power center.  Her mind and stuff--what makes her up mentally and emotionally was all still the same, so her helping Willow, and then helping what was left of the Scoobies was no surprise to me.

Spike/Warren connection - They both express the "she deserved it, the bitch" sentiment. I suppose this is to confuse the audience about what exactly Spike is up to by comparing him to Warren.
Not exactly--Spike says "bitch is gonna see a change/give her what she deserves" which implies future changes, not past.  But yeah, they both refer to her as a bitch.  Doesn't Dark!Willow too though?  Not that it goes against the theme or anything.

Flaying Thing - okay, what sort of sick person thinks something like that up? I could see Willow shooting him, even whacking him up with an ax, cause it's handy, but flaying? Ew.
Eh, I was too busy laughing at the "Bored now" throwback.  That should have been on your "cool" list.

 Spike's gone - Wow, Buffy is upset! Spike left without telling her! And, she still trusts him with her little sister. Xander is right - Buffy shouldn't leave her little sister with Spike under the circumstances.
I was surprised to see that Buffy was sad to see Spike not be there, kicking rocks and all "Do you know when he's coming back?" etc.  However, I don't see why everyone was surprised, or thought it was a bad idea that she brought Dawn to Spike.  Besides herself, who would be strong enough to protect her, and throw their life on the line for Dawn?  Spike.  Who would not, and physically could not if he wanted to, harm her.  She trusted Spike with her family back in season five when she thought he was bad and before she knew he was in love with her.  Why not then?  He's the obvious choice.  Though her comments about Spike when she and Dawn are trapped in that hole made the sense that wasn't in the following ep.  I just think she should have been consistent, is all.  I know--I expect too much.

Ditto on the pants--Buffy's in "Innocence" were worse by far.  Gosh, they were horrendous...At least Anya's had a cute cut--the pattern was uber retarded though.

Spike also speaks (or at least, comprehends) another language.  An African one at that.  Color me impressed.

The hoody and jeans thing?  I'm thinking two things--they wanted Buffy to look more vulnerable when she's shot, and to look weaker than Willow the mega Witch, who stops Buffy in her tracks literally with a flick of her wrist.  I thought Dark! Willow was pretty cool and funny, until she tried to destroy the world.  I mean...that would just be pretty useless.

And eyeball thing?  WTH?  I don't remember any eyeball thing.  Well, in season six anyway.

Oh, and Xander's chest isn't bare in s7 for some reason.  Just saying.

Eh, I was too busy laughing at the "Bored now" throwback. That should have been on your "cool" list.
Me,too!Me,too! :D
As icky as that scene is, it was well made. And it suited Dark-Willow. An axe or somethin like that wouldn't require magick - but flaying him so quick?Yeah, that does.

Spike also speaks (or at least, comprehends) another language. An African one at that. Color me impressed.
We always knew that Spike was well educated. He speaks a lot of languages which he proved in the series,too.

And eyeball thing? WTH? I don't remember any eyeball thing. Well, in season six anyway.
Yeah, what eyeball?!

Oh, and Xander's chest isn't bare in s7 for some reason. Just saying.
Do you mean they didn't show his chest at all or they didn't show it because he gained some weight?Because, unfortunately, they DID show the chest and his flabby belly ;)

We always knew that Spike was well educated. He speaks a lot of languages which he proved in the series,too.
Oh, I know Spike was no slouch.  I was just impressed that he knew an African one.

Do you mean they didn't show his chest at all or they didn't show it because he gained some weight?Because, unfortunately, they DID show the chest and his flabby belly ;)
I meant that they showed it, and there was hair on it ;)  They didn't have him shave in that scene for some reason.

I meant that they showed it, and there was hair on it ;) They didn't have him shave in that scene for some reason.
Ah, okay ;)

Xander forgives Buffy for sleeping with Spike and Willow doesn't

When was Willow angry at Buffy for sleeping with Spike? I always assumed that comment was said to hurt Buffy's feelings. Not about Willow feeling upset or betrayed because Buffy slept with Spike.

Anya, in spite of being all demony, agrees to help Willow.

I don't think it's about Anya liking Willow though.

Spike/Warren connection - They both express the "she deserved it, the bitch" sentiment. I suppose this is to confuse the audience about what exactly Spike is up to by comparing him to Warren.

And, sadly, it worked in a negative way. This plot twist didn't work well, which is why so many still believe that Spike was tricked by the demon in the end, even though it was stated in S7 that he went to get his soul.

Spike's gone - Wow, Buffy is upset! Spike left without telling her! And, she still trusts him with her little sister. Xander is right - Buffy shouldn't leave her little sister with Spike under the circumstances.

The difference is that Buffy knows that Spike can't hurt Dawn -not to mention that she knows him better than Xander does. The whole attempted rape thing is too complicated, and I think Buffy forgave Spike before Xander burst into her bathroom.

Poor Nick gained weight because of treatment for a medical condition. The steroids do that as a frequent side effect.

Only people that thought Spike went there about the chip are the ones that weren't spoiled.....and I sure didn't know a lot of *those* at the time! Everybody regarded that as the worst kept secret Joss had attempted so far. LOL

CM

Willow didn't care about her sleeping with Spike and When was Willow angry at Buffy for sleeping with Spike? I always assumed that comment was said to hurt Buffy's feelings. - I think Willow is pissed at Buffy and does mean to hurt her and it becomes more and more clear as she goes from hunting down the two remaining geeks to fighting Buffy, then Giles.  The way she said it, too.  "Screwing" a vampire, not sleeping with him or boinking him, or even boning him (Xander's expression in S7).  
 

Maybe he was a psychic demon or something?  He knew what Spike had come for after all, right? many still believe that Spike was tricked by the demon in the end, even though it was stated in S7 that he went to get his soul.  The demon must be involved in some way - a mindreader or psychic as you say - or he's manipulating events.  Maybe that plot twist never got developed.  When I saw the show the first time (after it was off the air) I thought Spike got tricked - that he wanted the chip out (possibly to show Buffy that he didn't need the damn thing) and instead the demon gave him his soul.  That would only have been justice for Spike who was always pulling tricks to get what he wanted.  It also might make sense that the demon's pushing Willow past the point she would really go it.  She is vindictive, but she ends up going after her supposed friends.  And, he may have even pinched Buffy's soul.  More later on this theory.

 

You mean agree to help stop Willow, right?  After she flays Warren anyway.   No, before that:

XANDER: If you know where she is, you can help us.
ANYA: (stands up, sighs) I'll help. But I'm helping Willow.  Bored now" throwback.  That should have been on your "cool" list.  You're right!  And also "That was Rude!" 

 

 

I don't see why everyone was surprised, or thought it was a bad idea that she brought Dawn to Spike.   Dawn thinks its a bad idea and bitches to Buffy when they're in the big hole.  It's also a bad idea for Buffy to be running to Spike after all the badness.  Can't she leave the poor guy alone?  Apparently not, which tends to prove that Spike is right and that she loves him.

 

I don't remember any eyeball thing.  - I mean where Willow's eyes turn all black when she's goosed up with magic. 

 

 

Xander's chest isn't bare in s7 - Hmmm - he must have slipped into the not as hot as he used to be category.  Whew, guys talk about women doing crazy stuff to look good.  Can you imagine having your chest hair waxed?  AAAAAARRRGGGGGHHH!

think Willow is pissed at Buffy and does mean to hurt her and it becomes more and more clear as she goes from hunting down the two remaining geeks to fighting Buffy, then Giles. The way she said it, too. "Screwing" a vampire, not sleeping with him or boinking him,
She was saying it to bluntly to hurt Buffy, yes, but that doesn't mean she actually cared about it.  "You screw a vampire to feel" along with the rest of her tirade was just to say that Buffy sucked, not the actual act itself.  Screw a vampire?  Fine.  But screw it to feel cause you hate the world?  Lame.

Apparently not, which tends to prove that Spike is right and that she loves him.
Yeah, I don't think it meant that...

I just think it meant that she was counting on her reliable doormat to be there.  Surprise, he wasn't.  Not that that lasted (well, until he literally bit the dust).

Can you imagine having your chest hair waxed? AAAAAARRRGGGGGHHH!
According to James (and Rosenbaum), they just shaved their chests for the scenes, and not wax.  Still, I wouldn't think that was very fun either.  Well, around the nipple area anyway.

I just noticed, because one of my roomies has it on, that Willow's outfit in the airport scene in "Bargaining" is almost exactly like Buffy's in OMWF. The red top and black jeans. Funny.

Carry on. :P

CM

she was counting on her reliable doormat to be there.  Surprise, he wasn't. - True, I just read more feeling from Buffy's reactions - sad, surprised that he didn't tell her, taking him for granted and now he's gone and a little uncertain about how she feels about his leaving.  She ought to be relieved, but she isn't.

She was saying it to bluntly to hurt Buffy, yes, but that doesn't mean she actually cared about it.  - The interesting part is that Willow is out to hurt Buffy and why?  Buffy was sympathetic and really pretty ineffectual in preventing Willow from hurting Jonathan and Andrew. 

I don't think Willow is trying to hurt Buffy regarding the events of that day, but for all the resentments she's built up for the past six years - having Buffy, obviously a cool girl, befriend her possibly out of pity, Buffy attracting Xander's attention, Buffy having the cool vampire boyfriend, being cast as Buffy's sidekick, Buffy cutting her out to hang with Faith, Buffy with the studly Riley boyfriend, Buffy being the cheerleader and running for prom queen on and on and on and finally Buffy being a major ingrate when Willow brings her back from the dead.  By Two to Go, Willow is ready to kill her.  Looking back, you have to question whether Willow was ever Buffy's friend or whether she hung around for other, deeply sick reasons.
 
Willow is the opposite of the usual villian - she's evil inside and pleasant outside.  Sort of the opposite of Spike who is evil outside, but tender inside. 

I don't see why everyone was surprised, or thought it was a bad idea that she brought Dawn to Spike. Dawn thinks its a bad idea and bitches to Buffy when they're in the big hole.

Um, it was Dawn's idea to go to Spike's in the first place.

Yes, but that was before she knew the truth of what he tried to do.

-Tammy

But Buffy knew the truth.  It didn't matter what Dawn did or didn't want--ultimately, it was Buffy's decision, and she chose to take her little sis to Spike's.  And with good reason, IMO.

she's evil inside and pleasant outside.

I don't think she was pleasent on the outside, those veins were ugly. Unless you mean regular Willow, which I won't call evil on the inside, but more of a flawed woman.

But Buffy knew the truth. It didn't matter what Dawn did or didn't want--ultimately, it was Buffy's decision, and she chose to take her little sis to Spike's. And with good reason, IMO.

What she said :)

Unless you mean regular Willow - Yep, I mean regular Willow - here's a few examples:

• The spell she started to do on Veruca (and Oz?) because she was mad and jealous.
• The delusting spell she was going to do, not just on herself, but on Xander, too, because she got mad at Xander.  
• After she started up her Will be Done spell (once again, didn't get her way), she blinded Giles, made Buffy and Spike want to get married, and nearly got the whole gang killed when she made Xander into a demon magnet.  She did all those things because she was mad. 
• She wiped Tara's memory when she wasn't getting her way, then when that didn't work out, she wiped everybody's memory. 
• When Giles berates her for pulling Buffy out of the grave, she gets mad and threatens him. 
• Willow and Amy cruise over to the Bronze and humiliate a couple of guys and change peoples shapes because they're bored. 
• She tells Cordelia to drink some of Buffy's lemonade, knowing it is sour as hell. (Not to say that Cordelia didn't deserve it) and she tricks Cordelia into erasing her computer program. 

So, yeah, Willow is full of mean inside.  Her meanness becomes more visible as her powers grow but it was there all along.  In fact, she's every bit as mean as Cordelia ever was, maybe more.  Cordelia only hurts peoples' feelings, Willow hurts people for real.

Maybe Willow finds it easy to tolerate Spike because when he's wicked, he's acting out in ways that she wishes she could get away with.

Those are some good observations, tart!

After she started up her Will be Done spell (once again, didn't get her way), she blinded Giles, made Buffy and Spike want to get married, and nearly got the whole gang killed when she made Xander into a demon magnet. She did all those things because she was mad.

To be fair, while indeed Willow didn't get her way and so tried a spell to make it so, and that she said those things (Giles doesn't see anything, Buffy should marry Spike, etc) out of anger -- she wasn't actively trying to hurt her friends with that spell.  She just wanted to skip the grieving and will herself back into the happy.

Yeah, and while I don't condone anything she's done, a lot of those times weren't intentional.

Maybe Willow finds it easy to tolerate Spike because when he's wicked, he's acting out in ways that she wishes she could get away with.
Lol--ha!

Well Tart, let's face it--none of the Scoobies were made of pure goodness and light.

And Cordelia?  Really, in the end, she turned out to be the best of them all.  For reals.

In the very end, yeah, but the 4th season of AtS completely ruined her character.

I disagree--she wasn't in the drivers seat for all of that, so it totally didn't count as a slight against Cordelia's character.

It may not have counted, but I for one hated that season because of what they did to Cordelia, and the whole Connor thing was just seriously disturbing, but honestly, I really didn't even start to like her much until her last episode of Angel.

While Cordelia ended up being the most mature one, I still enjoy Buffy, Xander, and Willow more. I kinda hate how too mature Cordelia became. I like my characters with little flaws in them, or else, they're just boring. -my favorite Cordeia was the BtVS and the first two seasons of AtS Cordelia-

So, yeah, Willow is full of mean inside. Her meanness becomes more visible as her powers grow but it was there all along. In fact, she's every bit as mean as Cordelia ever was, maybe more. Cordelia only hurts peoples' feelings, Willow hurts people for real.

The difference is that when Cordelia hurts people, it's with the intention of hurting them. When Willow hurts her friends, hurting them isn't really her intention. Most of her spells are to fix the problems in her life, and while that's lazy and wrong, it's still not mean or evil.

All right, this is taking a big ol tangent from the original topic, but--

Cordelia was leagues better than the Scoobies.  She had flaws, but being too mature was not one of them.  Cordelia was a hero first, and then a champion, and never lost her snark.  She was gifted with a power that was literally killing her, and accepted becoming part demon (and was told it would be hell to become part demon, though that was pretty much a lie, but took it anyway) to continue to help others.  She was selfless, and strong, and though the whole Cordelia/Connor stuff was made of ick, the character Cordelia was still made of win.  She wasn't the one who failed--the show's writers did for that silly arc.  But either way, it still wasn't her, and we can't say the same for oh say Buffy or Willow.

And when Cordelia actually hurt people?  It was with words, so how much it hurt someone depended upon how thick their skin was.  Willow on the other hand could rip someone's skin off.  Or changed someone to suit her needs (e.g. wiping Tara's memory).  That's selfish and wrong and disturbing and dark and immoral, though not necessarily hard core evil.

Cordelia was leagues better than the Scoobies. She had flaws, but being too mature was not one of them. Cordelia was a hero first, and then a champion, and never lost her snark.

I agree that she's better than the others in the sense that she's more grown up, but I don't recall her giving a snarky remark in S3 -except for that funny scene she had with Wesley mocking Bangel. She was just too mothery and mature for my liking. I liked her better before, when she was a bitch on the outside and a softie on the inside.

I still relate to and enjoy the other Scoobies more than Cordelia. I guess it's a taste thing.

I still relate to and enjoy the other Scoobies more than Cordelia. I guess it's a taste thing.
Probably so, since I relate and understand Spike, Angel and Cordelia the best :P

That scene with Cordy and Wes was awesome.

Whoops - I jacked the thread. 

I really liked Willow in S1 and I really hated her later.  I find it difficult to see any good in her and without wany proof whatsoever, I think she hates Buffy, which Buffy doesn't deserve.

As for Cordelia, I loved Cordelia (before Angel show).  She always said what she meant and no pussyfooting around.  Sometimes that came out bad, but it seemed better than lying and pretending and tiptoeing around.  Shows you how weird I am.

Wow, I don't get how you can think Willow hated Buffy, I didn't see that at all.  Yeah, she had a lot of issues, but who doesn't?  I don't think she really intentionally hurt anyone, except maybe Tara and Dawn, and to me, she completely redeemed herself in the end.

I never got the idea of Willow hating Buffy, of all the characters she'd always been the one who defended Buffy the most.  She'd have let her die in S6 if she hated her, but she delayed her plan to kill Warren until she made sure Buffy was alive.

she really intentionally hurt anyone -  In the next episode she beats the crap out of her supposed best friend, tortures Giles and roughs up Anya and knocks her out, when Anya gets in the way.  In the last ep of the Season, she attacks Xander.  Oh yes, she kills two people - Warren and Rack and was prepared to kill Jonathan and Andrew as well.  It's quite intentional and her hurt/anger isn't an excuse. 

delayed her plan - actually, she runs to the Magic Box first to get goosed up with black magic before she checks in on Buffy.  Possibly that was necessary to perform open heart surgery magic style.  Willow may even think she's Buffy's friend, but secretly envy and hate her until Buffy gets in her way and all the hate comes spilling out.

I don't like Willow, can you tell?  Smiley face.

Africa demon - I was thinking about this demon.  He's 14,000 miles away, why concern himself with the Slayer and her pals?  Maybe Warren (who brags about dabbling in the dark arts when he goes into the bar to celebrate killing the Slayer) summoned the demon or in some way brought himself to the demon's attention.  Then the demon manipulates or at least observes the events in Sunnydale and records those events on the cave wall.  Spike asks him if he painted the drawings himself.  The demon knows a great deal about Spike, his past, the chip and what he's there for. 

Africa demon
Maybe he'd just been following Spike and had the touch of ESP or something.

I don't like Willow, can you tell?
Though I still don't think Willow hated Buffy (though when she tries to kill Warren and Jonathan with that truck, she would have killed Buffy and Xander by default as well, but she just didn't care, or that fireball, or turning Dawn back into a key...), I think she may have been a bit envious of her super strength or something, once upon a time.

Still, I personally like Willow more than Buffy.  She had more backbone, at any rate.

she would have killed Buffy and Xander by default as well, but she just didn't care, - which is my point.  she didn't care.  She could wait and teleport where ever the two spazs are since she always seems to know.  

Don't know that I agree re Willow having backbone either considering that she completely falls apart when Oz leaves, lets Giles walk all over her when he has some stupid project, lets Anya rope her into a black magic project (although she does tell her off later) and whenever things get hinky with Tara, she brainwipes her.  So, sometimes yes, mostly no.  Buffy is pretty much backbone free when it comes to her personal relationships.

Maybe he'd just been following Spike and had the touch of ESP or something - ESP maybe.  The disturbance that Willow creates is so big that the waves are crashing his way.  He couldn't pick Spike's brain for that info since it all happened after Spike left and he doesn't know.

Jonathan and Andrew in jail - how does this happen?  Even if Buffy and Xander tell the cops that Warren shot Tara (how are they going to say he shot Warren since Buffy is plainly in one piece and running around and there goes her theory that human justice will go after him), the police are probably only going to hold them as material witnesses or persons or interest or something and 24 or 48 hours theyre' released.

Don't know that I agree re Willow having backbone
She does in the sense of making her own decisions, regardless of what avenue it's in--what she's going to do with her life, or who she's going to spend it with.  No, she doesn't always make the right decisions, but she did own up to them in the end.  Can't say the same for Buffy at all.  And while trying to end the world sucks donkey balls, I still like Willow leagues over Buffy.

Though I will admit that I don't believe Willow ever saw how wrong it was to brain rape Tara, because she did think that it was okay in some disturbing, convoluted way, cause it erased an argument.  However, Buffy saw the wrongness in beating Spike, but just plain didn't care about it.  So, two deplorable incidents where one is too blind to see how bad it is, and the other does, but doesn't care.  WIllow is stupid for not seeing the problem with her actions, but Buffy is disgusting for seeing it, and doing nothing about it.  That's the defining difference for me.  Also, Buffy was just kind of a bitch a lot of the time, and not in the fun Cordelia way or cool Lilah Morgan way--just in a whiney baby way.  So yeah, in the "Willow v. Buffy" case, I choose Willow.

The disturbance that Willow creates is so big that the waves are crashing his way.
Well, it does travel across the pond and reaches the Coven.  Willow's fury sent waves across the globe, it seemed, to anyone tapped into the supernatural (witches and demons alike).

Jonathan and Andrew in jail - how does this happen?
They were in jail before the shootings, for the robberies ;)  They were captured shortly after Buffy smashed Warren's orbs, and Warren shot off into the stratosphere with his jetpack, remember?  Leaving Jonathan, and an unconscious Andrew behind.

Also, Buffy was just kind of a bitch a lot of the time, and not in the fun Cordelia way or cool Lilah Morgan way--just in a whiney baby way. So yeah, in the "Willow v. Buffy" case, I choose Willow.

Totally agree with you - Still can't figure out why they made Buffy into such a Big Bitchy character so much of the time  -

Also, Buffy was just kind of a bitch a lot of the time, and not in the fun Cordelia way or cool Lilah Morgan way--just in a whiney baby way. So yeah, in the "Willow v. Buffy" case, I choose Willow.

Totally agree with you - Still can't figure out why they made Buffy into such a Big Bitchy character so much of the time  -

Also, Buffy was just kind of a bitch a lot of the time, and not in the fun Cordelia way or cool Lilah Morgan way--just in a whiney baby way. So yeah, in the "Willow v. Buffy" case, I choose Willow.

Totally agree with you - Still can't figure out why they made Buffy into such a Big Bitchy character so much of the time  -

However, Buffy saw the wrongness in beating Spike, but just plain didn't care about it.   In Buffy’s defense, she does eventually (yeah, I know) see that she’s been cruel to Spike and stops. She breaks off the love affair for his benefit as much as her own. It isn’t her fault that Spike won’t accept their relationship on any terms other than as the declared lover. I think Buffy would like to have a friendship with him and that’s part of her upset over him leaving without telling her. I admit that she’s pretty useless in the thinking of others feelings department. 

 

Willow wipes Tara’s brain once, then learning nothing, does it again. Had Tara not busted up with her, Willow would have probably continued and assuming that she would get better with practice, could be mucking up people’s memories any time she wanted. The whole talking in people’s heads and reading their thinking is creepy, too. 

 

Buffy was just kind of a bitch a lot of the time – Sad, but true. I think they made Buffy a bitch to give her some character, because other than the clever remarks and the hero bravery thing, her actual character is thin, thin, thin. Personally, I think they should have adhered to the Joseph Campbell style hero who is never cruel or bitchy and they should have given her some better character traits.

 

This brings up another interesting point, previously when Buffy got killed, she was REALLY BITCHY. This time, she gets shot in the heart (symbolic death) and is not bitchy at all and is focused on trying to save Willow and save the geeks from Willow. Since the writers made her a bitch, they should have stayed with that theme and sent Buffy into a towering rage, which would have been much more fun. 

 

Willow's fury sent waves across the globe, it seemed, to anyone tapped into the supernatural – She fronts off a “god”, too. She calls on Osiris right after Tara gets killed (without any stupid urn or blood of Bambi), then she blows Osiris back to his home dimension with a scream. Thinking in Giles’s terms, he really should have killed her. Having a witch that powerful and dangerous and out of control is worse than having Dawn around and he was all for whacking her. 

 

They were in jail before the shootings, for the robberies – forgot about that. They really had nothing to do with Willow’s shooting in more of a nothing way than I remembered. 

Lilah - she was great and she never deviated from being a bitch.

In Buffy’s defense, she does eventually (yeah, I know) see that she’s been cruel to Spike and stops. She breaks off the love affair for his benefit as much as her own.
Yeah, no...Right before she dumps him, she punches him so that he's knocked on his ass and bleeding.  She never apologized for beating him, then follows up by siding with Riley without bothering with hearing Spike's side, then punching him in the face again.  She only dumps him for her--because "it's killing her" and not "I have no right/am in no place to be in a relationship right now" or "it's not fair to you."  Her reasoning was clear, and selfish.

Had Tara not busted up with her, Willow would have probably continued and assuming that she would get better with practice, could be mucking up people’s memories any time she wanted.
Oh, no doubt.  I'm just saying that Willow, like many, never got the wrongness of what she was doing, whereas Buffy did.  That's the dividing factor between them.

I think they made Buffy a bitch to give her some character, because other than the clever remarks and the hero bravery thing, her actual character is thin, thin, thin.
I agree.  Still, they could have had her grow up or something.  Other ways to give a character some heft.  Or at least, have her be a fun, high riding bitch as opposed to one that makes you (well me) want to heave.

This brings up another interesting point, previously when Buffy got killed, she was REALLY BITCHY. This time, she gets shot in the heart (symbolic death) and is not bitchy at all and is focused on trying to save Willow and save the geeks from Willow.
Well, she had the whole time after her resurrection to be really bitchy, so getting shot and being dead on the operating table for a few minutes and coming back not bitchy?  Meh.  Besides, even if she had been bitchy, she would have been outclassed and outranked by Dark Willow.

Thinking in Giles’s terms, he really should have killed her. Having a witch that powerful and dangerous and out of control is worse than having Dawn around and he was all for whacking her.
I don't think Giles had the power to do so, even if he wanted it.  And he only wanted to get rid of Dawn as a last resort.  Instead, he settled for Ben, which was a better bet in the big picture.  And you know they weren't going to kill Willow.  Pshaw :P

They really had nothing to do with Willow’s shooting in more of a nothing way than I remembered.
I think the fact that Willow gunned for killing them so hard probably through you off.  I was pretty confused why she wanted their blood so bad myself.

Lilah - she was great and she never deviated from being a bitch.
Yeah--Lilah was made of W.I.N.

Buffy wasn't dead in the ER, though. And the bullet entry was above her heart, not through it. Yeah, she needed immediate care and might have died, but Willow took care of that. Buffy's bitchy after her first death because it was the first.....as a 16 year old girl who'd rather be normal and had to face not only the vampire prophesied to kill her, but one that thralled her and took away her will to fight - terrifying. It's why she has constant nightmares about it all summer. She probably would have mellowed out if she didn't have to come back to Sunnydale and still kill monsters, but she did.

Now, why she was mean to Willow and Xander as an extension of that first death trauma, I have NO idea.

Now, why she was mean to Willow and Xander as an extension of that first death trauma, I have NO idea.

Yeah, I've always wondered about that. I get why she'd been mean to Giles and Angel, but Xander and Willow didn't do anything to deserve it.

Buffy wasn't dead in the ER, though.
She flatlined when Willow kicked the doctors out.