BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Tabula Rasa... I just understood something

Jun 13 2009 02:22 pm   #1Guest
I watched Tabula Rasa again the other day. It had been so long so it was totally lost on me.
I guess since I started reading fanfics I became more aware of what happened in Buffy.

In this episode Willow completely erases Buffy's and everyone else's memory.
Which made her once again care-free and happy.
She was fascinated by her abilities, she felt proud to be in charge and she enjoyed herself a little more.

Then at the end, when Xander breaks the crystal Willow had used to cast the spell, we see Buffy on the ground after the fight with Shark Man's lakeys.

Buffy's eyes widened with horror because all of her memories were flashing back in her brain. All of her pain, her doubts, her anxieties, depression, melancholy and everything that had given her PTSD (even if it wasn't a severe case).

So, it was at this point in the show when she finally had gotten a taste of what happiness could be once again, of how her life could be, that she just caved in... Went into overload.

Because when you're sad all the time, you eventually learn to be sad a deal with it. But if your happy all of a sudden, you forget everything and live in the moment.
But when the depression comes back, it gives you more perspective of your situation and makes you more aware of how much everything makes you unhappy.

Which is why in the next episode, she bones up on Spike.
Because he's the only thing in the world that can keep her from cracking completely.
She was at the point where she's do anything to feel that joy again, or just pretend at least.

Which I can understand now.

So, what's you  guys's opinions? Did I miss anything?



Jun 13 2009 07:47 pm   #2Shell Presto
I think you're dead on. I think at the core, Buffy is always still that determined, fun-loving, maybe slightly scared teen she started as in the season 1, but if you throw in dying and deaths, being constantly scared for your friends, her relationships and everything else, you get layers masking and pushing down her core until you can't see it anymore -- and I think to an extent this happens to everyone. I mean, it's a fact of life: your experiences change you.

So if you remove the experience, you get what seems like a totally different person. And, yeah, I think having that lifted then shoved back into place could be traumatizing and make you question yourself and your motives. That could be exactly what pushes Buffy toward Spike. I find it endlessly interesting that Spike had the same wanting-to-be-something he couldn't thing going on as well -- during the spell, he obviously wants to be a good guy, and he's completely lost the urge to bite Buffy, as he says so.

And actually, if you strip him of his memories, he didn't attack anyone in the magic shop -- and he would have if that was really his first instinct, if his core was evil. He certainly didn't know he was in the room with a slayer.

In the end, though, you have to wonder how it would have turned out if Buffy just took the lesson from Tabula Rasa and learned not to worry too much, because she was actually back to being the pleasant slayer we all love.
Jun 13 2009 09:43 pm   #3Guest
This episode was interesting in many ways.  Everyone was stripped of their identity.  Everyone!  Spike is supposed to be a vampire and he is stripped of all of his memories, but giving him a base identity.  Uh then he would have been just as bad as Angel coming back from Hell or in that realm.  He would have used his baser instincts to attack them all.  They are his food supply.  This is one theme I didn't get, and yet, they made him a do-good and upstage kind of vamp.  Ok, this could be foreshadowing. 

The depression though...I don't agree with.  The writers don't have a clue as to what depression really is.  They had Buffy using Spike to feel.  Sure TR was catalyst to see what could be...uh then as someone so depressed then I would be hightailing it to get that happiness rather than drag someone else along for the ride.  Sure there are many different types of depression and yeah I will give Buffy just this...Death and having your destiny shoved on your shoulders like that...It doesn't help.  However, she could have taken a step back by reassessing her life.  She should have been taking it out on those who brought her back from her peace.  Although, this I found completely imaginative and unorthodox.  One - uh, some have said seeing a white light when dying momentarily, but others are freaked out about it.  So this I find a bit farfetched.  The Heaven thing is all purely religious belief.  God the writers just took everything I piled it into this series.  Religion, mentality, struggles, fear, and you name it!  It was all pulled into one series.

As for Tabula Rasa Buffy acted out of character with how she felt about super powers.  It was like this cool thing!  Whereas Buffy from before...hated it immensily.  The spell was a happy forgetting spell.  That I get.  However, it made no sense when it came down to Spike being stripped.  (Nice imagery there heehee)

This was definitely a foreshadowing episode of what was to come but I don't think it necessarily pushed Buffy towards Spike.  I think it pushed her more towards oh woe is me...It's the end of the world...I feel sorry for myself.  Hate to break it to Buffy though...There are sooooo many women out there struggling to make it on their own...even with two jobs possibly three...or even one job.  She had things pushed onto her yes...But suck it up like anyone else does.  She basically thinks it's the end of the world.  In her world I'm sure it is...Is life hard...You bet your ass it is...In Buffy's world...It's hard yes, but that doesn't mean she breaks down others around her because she can.  I still have my issues with Buffy.  I know what depression is like and hell...still in it.  You can try to control it but it exists.  How Buffy did it...I can understand a sexually abused child reacting to as they got older.  Some shy away from it but then some use sex to feel anything because when the abuse started they were locked in this pattern of what that good feeling should be like as opposed to when it was appropriate.  Hard to explain, but it happens.  The writers used it to their advantage.  It made for good episodes sure...But, it also made good for ripping it apart in a pyschological perspective.

Tabular Rasa for me was like taking a happy pill and momentarily being completely thrilled with life...It was a drug...This I felt twisted Buffy even more...Just my opinion.  Funny as hell as an episode but catalyst for foreshadowing inmvho.
Jun 14 2009 07:57 am   #4Shell Presto
The spell was a happy forgetting spell.

I don't necessarily think it was. This is solely my interpretation, of course, but I think the spell stripped away events and experience, but certain impressions had to be left. Spike couldn't remember why he hated Giles, but they hated each other and used that feeling to rationalize a father-son relationship. Likewise, Buffy instantly reacted to Dawn as a sister, keeping the overprotectiveness and annoyance, even though they couldn't remember any instances of being sisters.

That being said, I think the spell had to leave feelings and basic education intact, and therefore a stripped down version of personality. Xander immediately reverts to his nervous core without having any memories of being a scooby to bolster his confidence. And if feeling is part of  a base personality, then Spike's feelings for Buffy and the scoobies, who he fought beside all summer, should hold true. (Whereas if he had seen any other humans during the episode, he might very well have attacked them.)

Likewise, I think Buffy's reaction to her superpowers wasn't out of character. She had the powers of the Slayer but no memories of learning the responsibilities of one. If there were no strings attached or knowledge that she was the only chosen one with the weight of an entire world on her shoulders, she probably would think the powers are pretty cool.
Jun 14 2009 02:25 pm   #5Messiah
So this I find a bit farfetched. The Heaven thing is all purely religious belief. God the writers just took everything I piled it into this series. Religion, mentality, struggles, fear, and you name it! It was all pulled into one series.

I know exactly what you're saying but I don't agree completely. Life is religion. Even not believing in god is a religion. It's all about what you choose to believe. Some of it's true, some not.
As for heaven, that's just the word god believers use to describe the place you go to when you die.

 I don’t believe in god but I believe in a lot of things (not a wicca lol) similar according to my experiences and what I’ve seen and read.

 I’ve known people that have had near death experiences. They literally died and came back and they said that there was an afterlife.

So, even if it isn’t what Christians describe, I think that there is something to it. But religion has been perverted over thousands upon thousands of years but somethings I think are true.

If we don’t graduate after this life, after all of our experiences, we might as well not live at all. It’s not logical.

That’s just what I think.

 

Not to mention the show is about vampires who fear crosses and holy water lol
 

"quote" -- > as for Tabula Rasa Buffy acted out of character with how she felt about super powers.  It was like this cool thing!  Whereas Buffy from before...hated it immensily.  The spell was a happy forgetting spell.  That I get.  However, it made no sense when it came down to Spike being stripped.  (Nice imagery there heehee)

Yeah, but when Buffy first found out she was the slayer, she still had all of her memories.

 In tabula Rasa, she was given a clean slate.

 She had no social life to worry about, no prom, no care about what others considered normal, no friends and family to influence her.

 

This freed her from everyday burdens and we got to see what Buffy might have actually done and how she might have acted if she hadn’t been conditioned all her childhood to think in certain ways.

 

Our external façade is what our experiences turn us into.
But there is always our core, our heart’s desire. Our true essence

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Jun 14 2009 02:34 pm   #6Messiah
And actually, if you strip him of his memories, he didn't attack anyone in the magic shop -- and he would have if that was really his first instinct, if his core was evil. He certainly didn't know he was in the room with a slayer.

Which means that truely in his own way, he really did love Buffy in some way.
And again, he was stripped of all his conditioning of how he must be by Angel, Dru and Darla. He was encouraged to be an evil bad ass vampire.

What's really gonna bake your noodle is would he still have not wanted to kill Buffy if this spell was performed before he met her.

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.


Jun 14 2009 05:28 pm   #7Shell Presto
What's really gonna bake your noodle is would he still have not wanted to kill Buffy if this spell was performed before he met her.

Oooo, I had never even thought that he wouldn't remember meeting Angel & co. Grand point!
Jun 14 2009 10:52 pm   #8nmcil
In tabula Rasa, she was given a clean slate. She had no social life to worry about, no prom, no care about what others considered normal, no friends and family to influence her. This freed her from everyday burdens and we got to see what Buffy might have actually done and how she might have acted if she hadn’t been conditioned all her childhood to think in certain ways. Our external façade is what our experiences turn us into. But there is always our core, our heart’s desire. Our true essence

One vital point that we have to remember about TR is that what Buffy chose to name herself is Joan - Joan of course is connected to another woman/child warrior Joan of Arc.  Even with the memory wipe, her Slayer destiny is still there.  However equally important, IMO, is the choices that she makes immediately after their memories are restored - Her Immediate choice is revert directly back to her self-imposed prison - all those walls that her history and walls that she accepts.  Buffy was given a magical gift to see things in a new way, to make a different choice - to choose for a Positive Life Force  instead of the blackness of her post-resurrection Negative Life Force.  Even with the passionate kissing and symbol of LOVE with Spike - her chasing after him - It is still all bad because, IMO, she is motivated not by a choice to find and experience real Love and Life, but to recycle all her negative past history. 

Season Six is, IMVHO, Buffy choosing to live in her past, to keep all the dogma, social constraints and her relationship with Angel/Angelus as the dynamics for her Life Force.  Buffy can't find a mature love or life without understanding that all the garbage that she has been taught and accepts as "Real" is put aside, discarded to be replaced by understanding life and her duty/social life by her own choices and Free Will. 

Spike does of course find his own Inner God/Inner Warrior  by Free Will which leads him to "Chosen" - he fulfills his "Tabula Rasa" clean slate outrageous and utterly "against traditional and accepted rules" -  this theme of finding your own path and understanding of how you "live your life" is probably the single most important element in being able to experience the great and awesome thing that being human allows.   Without the ability to find and make your own path and choices in life, a person is always bound and cut off  - because it always comes down to what other people expect or demand. 

Buffy is the only person that can give her "free will" and a "clean slate" to write a new life for herself - the ending of this episode always leaves me so sadden - because Buffy let's all the magic go to waste and will choose to keep her imprisonment, even while she is living life at it's most primal level.  One has to weep at the symbolism of Buffy using the Iconic Symbol of Life - the sexual act and symbol of Life Everlasting and the Creation of Life in the male/female sexual connection. 

I LOVE this episode - Willow making her life, through her Free Will, just as miserable for herself and Tara as Buffy will make her relationship with Spike such a tragedy. 
It is one of the most bitter things in this episode that Buffy starts out by saving Spike from Teeth, the shark - another of the symbols of danger and the Jungian and mythic symbols of the Inner Demons Dreamscape Realms.   I also liked how the symbols of  "chance" and "gambling" continue to be used in this episode - the early season starts with Buffy looking to Spike as her choice to make her life right -  One Good Thing is that we know that eventually Spike and Buffy both find their way back to life. 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 14 2009 11:23 pm   #9nmcil
What's really gonna bake your noodle is would he still have not wanted to kill Buffy if this spell was performed before he met her. Oooo, I had never even thought that he wouldn't remember meeting Angel & co. Grand point!

An interesting question because on one side   a memory wipe would neccessarily have altered Spike but Spike is a combination of Spike/William.   Can William have been the "reverted" entity at all?  William is dead - Spike/William  is another being  living in a symbiotic life form.  Without the memories of the demon existence I suppose that we would have the William life.  For me, I would have to go with the idea that William would be possible, because I firmly believe that our lives are the continously combination of the Life Force filtered through our intellect, brain and memories.  My life without my memories does not exist - it would be a completely different existence.

Spike wanted to experience The Grand Battle with Slayers - not so much that he wanted to kill them - it could have gone either way, victory or death.  Without his vampiric life memories and how he filtered that existence, I don't think that there was something like a natural "an imperative" to kill Slayers  - he made a choice to fight them.    Spike not wanting to kill Buffy is a result of his experiences.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 15 2009 02:24 am   #10Guest
Although theoretically he is not William.  He has a demon.  You strip the parts that made him what he is today with what he became as a demon...I'm thinking he goes with his instincts, his demon instincts.  But, that's just me.

Just one question NMCIL are you a professor of psychology or maybe even a therapist...because wow!  Next time I think I will be saying move over Giles here comes nmcil!

I have issues with how this spell was done because you clearly see the ingredients completely mix all of it.  The whole spell was wonky.  It wasn't clearly done.  The main focus was suppose to be Tara and Buffy, but yet it was ever single one of them...Uh, how does that work?  I know fantasy series...just go with it, but wouldn't, let's say a practicing Witch or Wicca have a problem with this?  Don't get me wrong I loved the episode.  It was funny.  It gave them a moment of brief happiness in a rather gloom and doom yet dark season.  I just found some things about being stripped and making it a happy forgetting spell when the whole thing went off the hinge to begin with.  The way I see it is you forget your woes and are happy.  Why forget completely who you are, and never mind that, but effect those you know...uh why not everyone else then?  See that's one thing I don't get with this show.  I know Willow's spells are wonky, but she was pretty darn person specific.  Now, the ingredients mixing making it moreso should have effected the whole town quiet frankly.  The Shark should have been effected but wasn't.  I know I am reading way too much into this, but it occurred to me that it should have been almost a double whammy on Tara and Buffy rather than what it actually did with the whole group, that is when the extra ingredients combined. 

I may love this episode, but it is one that I feel pushed them all too far.  Every single one of them.

Em
Jun 15 2009 02:40 am   #11Shell Presto
I personally know nothing about magic, but I would imagine that burning more ingredient for a spell could simply enlarge the area of focus -- that is, it was targeting select memories of Buffy and Tara. Overkill it with too much ingredient, and it then wipes out all memories of Buffy and Tara. There's still too much energy to go around, so it wipes out the memories of anyone immediately near Buffy and Tara.

Sort of like a law of conservation of magic. It can't be destroyed, so once channeled it has to be used, and since Buffy and Tara were the targets, it worked from them and moved outward. Maybe some more flowers would have wiped those in buildings affecting the magic shop.
Jun 15 2009 04:40 am   #12Guest
I don't know Magic is pretty damn specific otherwise there are consequences.  Just watch Charmed.  Those made sense...whereas Buffy and its use of magic didn't.
Jun 15 2009 05:00 am   #13Eowyn315
So, it was at this point in the show when she finally had gotten a taste of what happiness could be once again, of how her life could be, that she just caved in... Went into overload.
Yep. I actually wrote a fic about her reaction - Escape.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jun 16 2009 03:18 am   #14Spikez_tart
the spell stripped away events and experience, but certain impressions had to be left.  - TR is really one of the best ever Buffies in my opinion.  It just occurred to me that while Willow and Tara are sexually attracted to each other after the Big Brain Wipe, there's no real evidence that Spike has the hots for Buffy, is there?  Or that she has anything for him, other than choosing him to go with her to fight vampires.  

Gosh, will have to watch that episode again.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 16 2009 04:27 am   #15Guest
I plan on watching this again tonight - one thing along the lines of the idea of "impressions" is that Willow and Tara had a real love for each other and their sexual attraction reflects where they started.  Buffy instead had  had a "fake love-sex toy" with Spike.  The roles that Buffy/Joan  and Spike/Randy assumed reflected  their natural and more realistic  roles of two warriors that would be an awesome fighting force and they also automatically go into  the roles of "watching each other's back." 

The writers were great at the use of The Mirror World conversions with the last two episodes final scenes showing Buffy initiating sexual/emotional  connections with Spike only to have one of, IMO, most horrific of all "gut wrenching" lines of the entire series "you're just convenient."  For my money, I still think that nothing tops Season Six for the sheer power of emotional impact on the characters and viewers. 
Jun 16 2009 04:33 am   #16Guest

Previous Post is mine  -  nmcil

does anyone else have the problem with occasionally not being recognized as a member - should I go through the log on/off procedures for each session?

Jun 16 2009 07:52 pm   #17nmcil
Another thing that I noticed was their opening scene and how Buffy refuses to recognize or accept her kissing Spike as "reality"  with her line about physical speech, vocal cords, and connecting themselves with "real world" speech.  I also loved how perfectly the Rhett Butler-Scarlet O'hara reference reflects his love for Buffy and the use of the ending scene song.

I love Tara in this episode - I don't think she ever looks more beautiful, other than the "family" episode in the series.  Even her hairdo reflects all the quality of how tied up and conflicted she feels.  Plus how wonderful is that white hand in the cake platter in their bar scene, metaphor for helping hand or extended hand to Buffy from Spike?  That is my "spuffy" take on imagery.  I also loved Giles and Anya together, this was one of the highlights of the episode for me.  Another highlight, Xander's "ohm" chant - perfect use of comedy and timing.

What are some of the other highlights - this episode also had one of my favorite lines with Sharky and his kittens to cats line.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 16 2009 09:13 pm   #18Scarlet Ibis
It just occurred to me that while Willow and Tara are sexually attracted to each other after the Big Brain Wipe, there's no real evidence that Spike has the hots for Buffy, is there? Or that she has anything for him, other than choosing him to go with her to fight vampires.
All we see of Spike is that he is the one to make the connection of being the son of Giles, which would make sense considering their situation and the time they spent together, but also puts him right at the heart of the Scoobies in a way, doesn't it?  Giles, the seeming leader and elder of the group...and the fact that the strongest pull in the room for Spike is Giles, the father figure, is funny (to me).  Buffy, well Joan rather, while she figures out the connection between she and Umad, has the strong desire to protect and keep Randy safe.  She doesn't bother to utilize her powers (which she wasn't aware she had, so rather, she doesn't bother to attempt to fight) when the vampire is holding her or menacing the others and her sister, but only acts/attacks when Randy is in danger.  She fights with Randy at her back, trusting him.  Those were her instincts when stripped bare.

I find it also interesting that Alex has no connection whatsoever to anyone.

This episode was my favorite of the season.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 17 2009 03:44 am   #19Spikez_tart
the fact that the strongest pull in the room for Spike is Giles, the father figure, is funny (to me) - definitely strange and weirdly interesting.  Spike like the others has a missing  (or bad) father.  Also, by becoming a vampire he gives up his ability to be a father.  He's jealous of his father's supposed romantic connection with Anya, too.  Could Giles be more important to Spike than Buffy? 

but only acts/attacks when Randy is in danger.  She fights with Randy at her back, trusting him. - her frequent instinct when she isn't brainwiped is to protect Spike.  Also she straddles him.  Plenty of instinct there.

S - what are you doing with James in that picture you naughty girl?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 17 2009 03:55 am   #20Scarlet Ibis
Could Giles be more important to Spike than Buffy?
Not necessarily, but I think Giles was important to Spike.  To a degree, he wanted Giles' approval.  He wanted to be apart of that group (e.g. the crying and being all pissed off at Xander and the others in "Afterlife" for not letting him in after spending the summer together).  Um, the whole "tarty step mom" thing, well, clearly Spike would be more loyal to his supposed mother as opposed to someone seemingly his own age that daddy was dating :P

And lolz Tart.  Heh--eh...what? 

:D
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 17 2009 05:35 am   #21Niamh
I have issues with how this spell was done because you clearly see the ingredients completely mix all of it.  The whole spell was wonky.  It wasn't clearly done.  The main focus was suppose to be Tara and Buffy, but yet it was ever single one of them...Uh, how does that work?  I know fantasy series...just go with it, but wouldn't, let's say a practicing Witch or Wicca have a problem with this?

As a witch -- and no, not a Wiccan -- I can honestly say there was more than one instance of improper usage of magic/spells in the series.  First and foremost the ridiculous notion that "magic and medicine don't mix" that was stated in season 5 very nearly made my blood boil.  The truth is most of our herbal medicines were discovered via "magical" and/or "spiritual" uses.

But I digress.  The subject at hand is Tabula Rasa, and Willow's constant misuse of magic and disregard for proper procedures.  Magic, in it's basic form, is a sort of prayer surrounded by rituals.  That most of the rituals aren't mainstream is immaterial for now, but just bear with me here for a moment or two.  When setting up a "prayer" most followers of mainstream religions follow a set ritual -- for the Catholics it's participation in Mass -- while Witches/Wiccans have their own set of rituals.  Willow, in numerous instances failed to either complete the required rituals for each "prayer" or didn't bother to make sure she'd safeguarded all her supplies.  The specific reason why everything went wonky in TR is because Willow failed to finish the "prayers".   She was more intent on getting away with spellcasting, since she had already been warned that Tara was pissed at her -- so she was hiding and being very careless.  Willow got up and walked away from the hearth, leaving the materials she used during the spellcasting, open and vulnerable.  

Anytime a witch starts a ritual there also has to be a closing of the same ritual, which generally ends as it began.  Like a circle, closing in upon itself (and yes, that is one of the reasons why most witches cast in protective circles).  In order to successfully complete a "prayer" or ritual, or spell -- the circle must be completed and the gods and elements invoked must be thanked for their participation and for their decision to answer the "prayer".   Willow never bothered to do any of that.  

So to answer your other question -- yes, this particular witch had a huge problem with the spellcasting in the show.
Jun 17 2009 09:43 pm   #22Guest

Spike certainly has all his "Dreamscapes" desires and needs fulfilled in TB - especially with Giles as one of the primary obstacles to reaching Buffy. Giles as the father figure even initiates by calling Spike to come forward and accept his father's affection and concern for his well being. What could be more symbolic than this scene between and especially with their first scene showing Giles with that "sense of disappointment" (paraphrase) -

We also Spike have taking the place of Angel/Angelus, the former lover and another HUGE person and experience and obstacle from her history and youth. Both men are symbols of things that are moved forward from in the rites of passage from youth to adulthood.

Joan and Randy, again a wonderful "dreamscape" desire working together and in harmony as equals but also reflecting their Real World with Joan/Buffy being the leader with Spike as her trusted partner. If you contrast the emotions shown by Buffy, look of disgust or extreme dislike, or even simply being so tired of all her troubles with Spike, when he first comes in for asylum - it gives even more emphasis to the "dreamscape" quality for Spike.

Even the use of "asylum" - brings in the theme of "the dreamscape" desires and struggles with inner demons - asylum is a safe place, a sanctuary but it is also a mental institution. For Spike he goes to The Magic Box as William/Spike - completely open to the "possibility" - Spike goes through the gateway without any protection from the normal blanket/covering and wearing a hunting hat. Buffy will finally admit that she is on the verge of an emotional breakdown that her very life force is dying. What is so tragic is that she sublimates all this despair and anger onto Spike, the person most devoted to her safety and life.

Spike


Buffy: Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-

Spike and Giles are the two most important men in her life – Giles as the father with knowledge that children must leave the comfort and safety and Spike, as the potential mate/warrior consort. Unfortunately, for all of them their inner demons are not conquered until Season Seven.

 

Another element that I like about TR is how Willow and Tara show the Real Time destruction of love by Willow and the inner demons destruction of love with Buffy and Spike.

: You need to give me asylum.
Jun 17 2009 09:47 pm   #23Guest
Don't know what is going on with the program - I keep being listed as "guest"  it's me - nmcil


this should read:

Spike:  you need to give me asylum.

Buffy:  Sorry. Everybody's sorry. I know that you guys are just trying to help ... but it's just, it's too much. And, and I, I can't take it any more. (tearful) If you guys ... if you guys understood how it felt ... how it feels. It's like I'm dying, it-

 
Jun 17 2009 10:55 pm   #24Scarlet Ibis
Even the use of "asylum" - brings in the theme of "the dreamscape" desires and struggles with inner demons - asylum is a safe place, a sanctuary but it is also a mental institution. For Spike he goes to The Magic Box as William/Spike - completely open to the "possibility" - Spike goes through the gateway without any protection from the normal blanket/covering and wearing a hunting hat. Buffy will finally admit that she is on the verge of an emotional breakdown that her very life force is dying. What is so tragic is that she sublimates all this despair and anger onto Spike, the person most devoted to her safety and life.

Interesting.  Spike goes to them for sanctuary/help/protection, just as Buffy is ready to leave because it's killing her, and she feels as if she's on the outskirts of the group...Spike's in, and Buffy's out.  Spike has the connection with Giles, whereas Buffy doesn't (and Xander is still connected to no one).  I think I'm going to have to watch this again...
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 18 2009 04:11 am   #25Spikez_tart
Even the use of "asylum"  - This is not the first time that Giles has given Spike asylum or that they're deeply connected; it is to Giles' house that Spike goes after he gets his chip out and again when he gets shot with the tracking device.  Spike lives in Giles' bathtub, a sort of center of the apartment.  Usually a body of water would represent a spiritual cleansing or rebirth, but in Spike's case the bathtub is empty and he's caught up in the false reality of television.  Spike drives Giles' car (the only one who ever does besides Giles) and wrecks it.  Also, in Restless, Spike, who has no dream of his own, appears together with Giles in Xander's dream and also features in Giles' dream. 

Spike goes through the gateway without any protection from the normal blanket/covering and wearing a hunting hat.  - interesting point - he's given up his security blanket (and protection) to seek Buffy and he is able to tolerate being directly in the sunlight, if even for a moment.  That hat still makes me laugh, but the symbolism is interesting, too.

Buffy will finally admit that she is on the verge of an emotional breakdown  - good timing by Buffy since "Giles" is the patron saint of the insane. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 18 2009 04:40 am   #26nmcil

along with Giles being a patron saint - the hunting hat is connected to William indirectly as part of a warrior/protector clothing. Randy is connected to wolf and to shield, both symbols of protectors - the wolf is a great protector of his tribe and family.   Another neat connection is Spike's use of "moonbeams" and "penny-whistle"  - the moonbeams are the nightime Sun Rays and Effulgent and the penny-whistle is an Irish/Scot lower class folk instrument. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 18 2009 05:59 am   #27Scarlet Ibis
Clothing you say?  Spike's clothing was false--he was hiding.  Not to mention it was the same watcher suit from Xander's dream, and the fact that Spike was hiding his true self/posing/putting on a show for Giles in his dream for the spectators...But the Scoobies already know Spike, so it doesn't matter what garb he's in.  He can be himself and seek sanctuary with them.  And each time he did seek sanctuary?  He wasn't looking for Buffy--she just happened to be there.  He was looking for the almighty father figure--Giles.  And they apparently disappoint each other, but still care at the heart of it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jun 19 2009 02:34 am   #28nmcil
All my comments and perspective is based on seeing Spike in this episode from a dreamscape POV  

Why do you think they writers used  the Spike is "looking for the almighty father figure"   This encounter at the magic shop with Giles is in complete contrast to the time that Giles/Ripper comes out  against Spike in "I Was Made To Love You."   

Giles shoves Spike backward.)

GILES: (softly) We are not your friends. We are not your way to Buffy. There is no way to Buffy. Clear out of here. And Spike, this thing ... get over it.

SPIKE: I don't know what you mean.

GILES: Yes, you do. Move the hell on.

(Spike takes a deep breath as if he's going to say something. Giles gives him a steely glare. Spike puts the blanket over his head and exits. 

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jun 19 2009 04:24 am   #29Spikez_tart
Why do you think they writers used  the Spike is "looking for the almighty father figure"  - because Joss (and possibly all the rest of them) have major Daddy problems. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jun 21 2009 07:51 pm   #30Messiah
Why do you think they writers used the Spike is "looking for the almighty father figure" - because Joss (and possibly all the rest of them) have major Daddy problems.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Not to mention Joss lost his mother and in the show, Buffy looses hers.
A lot of times when writers think up stories, the characters are somewhat based on themselves and others that have influenced their lives.
If the person writing has had a traumatizing childhood involving their family, they tend to mold the story to better suit their ideas and inner most feelings on the subject. Most of the time they aren't even aware of this.

Then I realized I did the same. When I was younger. I Had made many stories and comics which all included several magical sisters
which was due to the fact that I adore my sisters and it manifested itself in my creations.

- If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your own ambition..

-The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

- A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.