BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Shanshu

Oct 17 2009 04:29 am   #1969 
I was reading through some of the old threads in the forum, and I found one person post something about how AtS episode Destiny proves that Spike wants to be human. Do you think Spike wants to become human? I loved that episode for many reasons, but I did think part of his motivation was that he suddenly found himself without a purpose or goal, lost and cast adrift, and he felt this idea of the prophecy would give him a reason, something to follow and fight for-- I don't even know if he wanted to achieve it, or just have something to aspire to again. After all, he did make the ultimate sacrifice, only to come back and be treated like it meant less because of that, and he's feeling "now what?" Plus, there's the fact that Angel is CEO of a company, boss of his friends, has a mission and a goal and a lame plan to beat evil from within, and enjoys telling Spike he's useless, so why not take this thing away from him?

I know there are fics where Spike shanshus and becomes human, and I know there are earlier season fics where Spike becomes human for some reason, so I wanted to ask what everyone thinks of Turned Human Spike, and if they think it's what canon Spike would want, and why.
Oct 17 2009 05:06 am   #2dawnofme
I'm currently writing a shanshu Spike story.  I'm not a deep thinker and I have never really cared to pick apart my favorite shows down to the bare bones, so I can only give you my impression from watching the shows, but can't argue the point with "evidence" to back it up.

My impression was that he liked what he was.  I never got the feeling that he wanted to be human.  I do think he had fun messing with Angel in S5 of AtS and I think he went as far as drinking the Mountain Dew just to spite Angel.  That could just be me projecting my feelings about Angel onto Spike. 

It depends on the story and how the writer handles it whether or not I like turned human Spike.  I'm not a fan of whimpy Spike.  I'm partial to the badass vampire.  But it is fun to explore the possibilities of a human Spike in fan fiction.
Oct 17 2009 07:00 am   #3Scarlet Ibis
Initially, Angel was supposed to win the fight, but Fury insisted that Spike had to win.

Now, as far as characters...

No, I don't think Spike wanted to become human.  I think if it happened to him, he would have been okay with it and dealt with it (I've read a few fics that portray the contrary...), but I don't think it's something he would have actively set out to do.

He drank it in "Destiny" to prove a point to Angel--that he wouldn't always win.  That was what the flashbacks were about (those particular ones, anyway, because the relationship portrayed in those early days wasn't always how it was between them) their on again off again rivalry.  And it was implying that Spike had never beat Angel.  Until that day.  It was about the win--not about the prophecy or becoming human.

However, that isn't to say that Spike needed something more when he was in LA--I don't think he did.  I think he was happy there.  Link 1 and Link 2.  I think Spike was settling down, and was content where he was...with Angel and their friends.  Yep.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 17 2009 09:12 am   #4nmcil
Thanks for the links - wonderful discussions - I really need to do a lot more reading and connecting with others at LJ -

I also don't think that Spike was especially wanting to be human - just his reaction to Angel always being top dog in their relationship - 

And I so am glad that Fury insisted on Spike winning the struggle in "Destiny."  I can't see how it would have worked in the arc that Angel was going through had he not lost to Spike.  Plus, it makes a huge statement about how Spike had become his own man - he is equal to either Buffy or Angel now.   I also totally agree with your assessment of Spike being much happier and contended in LA - this is the first time that we see him around people who really appreciate him and who care about him.  I was looking through some of my Angel Season 5 screencaps the other day and again, we actually see Spike smiling and connecting with people as an equal not just as an object to be used or of contempt. 

I don't think Spike will ever be allowed any real deep and mature love with Buffy in the comic seasons - what I would really like for the character is to have him be his own man and away from any romantic attachments with anyone, male or female.  The character is in desperate need of some alone time.  Now with the latest issue looks like Spike is in for more emotional hardtimes - the Janus partner to Angel/Angelus - how I hate having to wait so long between issues.



” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 17 2009 06:27 pm   #5slaymesoftly
I've read and written quite a few shanshued Spike fics. When I write him, he is always a bit more than human.  While I love William, in his time and place, I don't believe that Spike would be happy or do well as a normal human after all those years of having superpowers. So he is often some sort of enhanced human (a male slayer) in my stories - or, he gets turned again and goes back to being a vamp. 
I have read one very good (Herself's A Terrible Thing - http://www.echonyc.com/~stax/Buffy/herself/terriblething1.html ) that explores how Spike might react (badly) to finding himself human again.  However, there are other fics by other authors (and her) where he seems to be okay with it. Much depends, I think, on whether or not he knows/remembers what he was. I don't think he would particularly want to become human again. Spike saw his turning as a positive thing and loved his life as a vampire. The Cup was all about spiting Angel. But I do think he would deal with it as best he could. Spike is very adaptable.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Oct 18 2009 12:26 am   #6nmcil
I'm afraid that I am one of those Buffyverse and Spuffy readers that see not appeal for a shanshued Spike - the powerful appeal his character is, IMO, melded to his vampire strengths.  I think that being not a normal human, even if he could be the big bad ass fighter, if one of the basic qualities that make him so compelling.  My favorite transformation stories for him is as a male Slayer or those stories that make him even more powerful and magical - and I love stories where he and Buffy become immortal consorts and warriors. 

I have read some stories where the Immortal is a force for good - but from Darla's description, it sounds like he considers himself above the normal human life - right now what he sounds like more than anything are some of the High Flying Bankers from Wall Street - take and have anything they want and too bad for the rest.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 18 2009 12:46 am   #7Abby
I pretty much agree with what Scarlet said about Destiny - it wasn't about getting the Shanshu, it was about Angel not winning, about Spike taking something that Angel wanted, and all that.

I don't believe Spike would have wanted to be human, either, and honestly, to me the idea of Spike as a normal human does not appeal.  That said, I'm sure he could have made it work.  But I like Slayme's idea (and I'm sure it's probably been done by others, but her stories I've read) where he's human, but with enhancements.  Sort of like he got to keep some of the perks of being a vampire -- which, I think, makes sense.  If the Shanshu is supposed to be a reward, then why leave the ex-vampire unable to be the champion he was as a vampire?  Plus, we all know how well normal human guys work for Buffy...which is not so much.


Oct 18 2009 02:31 am   #8Spikez_tart
And it was implying that Spike had never beat Angel.  Until that day.  It was about the win--not about the prophecy or becoming human.

Actually, Angel says it's the first time:

GUNN
You mean the fake cup? The make-believe, fairy-tale cup? So what?!
ANGEL
No, you don't... (sighs) He won the fight, Gunn... for the first time. Doesn't matter if the cup is real or not.
(sighs) In the end, he... Spike was stronger. He wanted it more.

I think Spike wants it.  It's part of the progression, possibly back to Buffy.  He realizes in S7 that just having the soul isn't enough, it doesn't erase the past or make up for the bad things he did.  (Things that he wants to give Angel some of the blame for, too.)  Maybe he's thinking that if he can go all the way to human, that he really will finally be free of his past and worthy of Buffy.   The useless shifting around LA must play a part as well.  Also, he wants to steal Angel's Viper.

Destiny is just about the only Angel episode (besides In the Dark) that I really liked.  I have to say that the Angel version of Spike is very different than the Buffy version.  He's a lot rougher and meaner, even post soul.  They didn't know what to do with him either.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 18 2009 05:15 am   #9nmcil
This is from the latest Angel issue #26 - good statement on where Spike is in the Comic Seasons - sorry for the poor quality on text, but have to keep download time small.  If you increase the viewing size you should be able to read text easier.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 18 2009 07:08 am   #10Scarlet Ibis
Tart, just checking to make sure I read what you wrote correctly, but I did mean that Spike had never beat Angel until that day/fight over the cup, which would yes, be the first time.

He realizes in S7 that just having the soul isn't enough, it doesn't erase the past or make up for the bad things he did.

I don't think he's trying to get back to Buffy.  Having the soul was enough for Angel to be in Buffy's embrace, but I think Spike realized that no matter what he did, Buffy still wouldn't want him.  That "hello" kiss or whatever kind of hammered that point home, not to mention the Angel's "Because you weren't me" line.  Going to repeat myself, but Spike's a shark--he's not moving backward.

<--hasn't read that far in the comics yet.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 18 2009 11:25 pm   #11Abby
I honestly don't see how becoming human would make him free of his past and what he did.  It doesn't.  If he became human, that doesn't change the fact that he was still the vampire who did those things in the past.  Besides, in my opinion, while Spike obviously feels remorse for what he did, he also doesn't try to duck responsibility for it by saying "Oh, that wasn't me, that was my unsouled counterpart". 

As much as I love Spuffy, I have to agree with Scarlet on this one.  Spike's journey in season 5 of Angel wasn't about trying to get back to Buffy.  It was about Spike finding his place in life and finding a purpose outside of Buffy.   Angel might think Spike wanted the Shanshu more than he did, but I still feel that Spike just wanted to win more than Angel did, no matter what the prize.  To Spike, beating Angel was the prize.
Oct 19 2009 12:49 am   #12Eowyn315
Agreed, Abby. I think for Angel, becoming human makes him free of his past, because of what the shanshu represents. Angel has spent the last several years fighting for good as part of his redemption - something he doesn't think he will ever achieve, based on various comments in AtS S5 - but if he ever does, then the shanshu is his reward. If he ever does become human, it means he is redeemed. He has atoned. He is officially absolved of all his sins by the Powers That Be (and if that sounds very Catholic, it's probably not a coincidence).

Spike doesn't think that way. He's not working towards a goal. He lives very much in the present, whereas Angel is focused on the past and the future. I don't know if the idea of "redemption" has ever crossed Spike's mind. He fights for good because he wants to do the right thing here and now, and that's all that matters to him. There's no need to be free of his past - it's the past, it's done, and it can't be changed, so what good does it do worrying about it? And if he's not working toward the goal of redemption, then achieving it (by becoming human) doesn't mean anything to him.

So, why does Spike "want it more" than Angel? It has nothing to do with becoming human. Spike couldn't care less about that. What he does care about is 1.) beating Angel at something, and 2.) having a role to play. I think the first one's obvious, but as for the second, Spike's clearly been out of sorts at Wolfram & Hart - aimless, feeling like he doesn't fit in, not knowing what he's supposed to do now, and being a ghost certainly didn't help matters. But if he was the special one, the vampire in the prophecy, the one the Powers care about, then he'd know his place. He'd understand what his role is. He's always had Buffy to guide him, to look up to, but now he's on his own and he's floundering. Being the vampire with a destiny would give him a new guiding light.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 19 2009 02:57 am   #13Abby
Eowyn, you said that all so much better than I did.  But yes, that exactly.
Oct 19 2009 02:57 am   #14Scarlet Ibis
and 2.) having a role to play. I think the first one's obvious, but as for the second, Spike's clearly been out of sorts at Wolfram & Hart - aimless, feeling like he doesn't fit in, not knowing what he's supposed to do now, and being a ghost certainly didn't help matters. But if he was the special one, the vampire in the prophecy, the one the Powers care about, then he'd know his place.

I'm going to disagree.

Spike was all about making his own place, and he didn't need validation from the PTBs of all beings to give that to him.  In fact he detests the idea of it--of being someone's pet project.  He says something to that effect in LMPTM, and again when he is first brought back (as a ghost).  He makes his own plans, he has his own will, and he makes his own destiny.

As for him caring about proper atonement for all his past deeds, it doesn't weigh on him because he finally realized that hey--he was a soulless vampire.  Those were the rules.  Why fret over something that you were supposed to be?  "Born" to be?

I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a slayer. I was a vampire. That's the way the game is played.


"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 19 2009 03:41 am   #15Abby
Oops, I didn't quite read that part.  I agree with everything Eowyn said up until number two.  I agree that he was trying to find a purpose, but upon reading further, I'm more leaning toward Scarlet's views on it.  He wanted to find his path, yes, and did spend some time at W&H feeling out of sorts, but I don't think it occurred to him to find it with the PTB.  He did try the thing with "Doyle", true, but yeah, I think Spike would rather do just as Scarlet said. 

And there was that time where Spike and Angel were talking about how Angel was distraught for a century after getting his soul while Spike spent a couple of weeks in a basement and was fine.  What you said, Scarlet, is bang-on, I think.  At that time in his life, that was who he was.  That was what he knew.  It was how a vampire was supposed to be and he was it.  Yeah, he understands now the kind of pain he caused people back then, but also knows that there's no point dwelling on it.  It's done.  What he can do instead is do good now - something he's actively been working toward for years, first because of Buffy, now for himself.
Oct 19 2009 04:47 am   #16Eowyn315
He wanted to find his path, yes, and did spend some time at W&H feeling out of sorts, but I don't think it occurred to him to find it with the PTB.

I don't think it would have occurred to him to look for it with the PTB, but it sort of got dropped in his lap. It may not have been his preference to have a destiny, but I think at that point - which is a pretty low point, having been an aimless ghost for months - it sounded better than wandering around with no purpose.

If he was that anti-destiny, he would've given "Doyle" the brush-off instead buying into the whole "visions from the PTB" pitch. It's not the destiny that matters; it's having a purpose. If he gets that from the PTB, or from Buffy, or from somewhere else, so be it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Oct 19 2009 04:55 am   #17Spikez_tart
Scarlet - my bad, I misunderstood.  I base my opinion on the fact that as soon as he can, Spike heads out for Europe.  True, he changes his mind (bonehead) and after the humongously stupid episode Girl In Question, he seems to give up on her.  I'm not up on the Spike comics.  If Spike did want to be human, it would only be for her, can't see him wanting it for himself except to goad Angel. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 19 2009 05:11 am   #18Scarlet Ibis
Abby--I agree with your agreement, which expands my point in sentences made of W.I.N.

If he was that anti-destiny, he would've given "Doyle" the brush-off instead buying into the whole "visions from the PTB" pitch.


Lindsey suckers him in with the part about saving people--people that had no one else to save them.  So yeah, he went along with it, grudgingly, but he wasn't all, "Oh joy--I can has purpose now!"  It's a job that needs to be done, so he goes "what the hell?" and does it.  Before Lindsay popped in, Spike was pretty much lounging around--going about his own business, and not being all mopey over it.  He was drinking at a strip club--he was hardly thinking about his "purpose" in life.  Spike's the kind of guy that takes things as they come.  He's too easy going to worry specifically about having a purpose.

And Tart, I will have to disagree that Spike changing his mind was a bonehead move (and I absolutely love TGIQ)--I think it's one of the most adult things he ever did.  He listened to his head and not his heart, for once.  He let it go.  He let  her go, which was wise if he wanted to spare himself angst and pain.

I always thought it odd that of all the daytime soaps and teen dramas Spike managed to watch, that he never caught an episode of Oprah about one's self esteem, or lack thereof, in relationships.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 19 2009 06:32 pm   #19Lou
I've never really understood why Angel gave up his humanity in  'I will remember you', if he was so desperate to shanshu.  Is there any explanation for that other than he couldn't protect Buffy -- which he didn't do?   I don't recall Spike ever wishing he was human, I think he saw the chance to beat Angel and went for it.
Oct 19 2009 06:38 pm   #20Abby
Lou, it was more than just him not protecting Buffy.  He saw that by being unable to fight and protect himself, he was putting Buffy in danger -- because she'd have to worry about protecting him and could get hurt in the process.  That's why he took it back.

The whole Shanshu thing came later (I'm pretty sure, anyway), when he and Buffy had been separated longer and he likely wasn't considering his every move with her in mind.
Oct 19 2009 06:57 pm   #21Lou
You're right, Abby,  I'd forgotten the time difference between Buffy S4 and whenever shanshu came up on Angel.  At least Buffy didn't need to protect him from Riley!
Oct 20 2009 04:25 am   #22Spikez_tart
I think it's one of the most adult things he ever did.  He listened to his head and not his heart, for once.  He let it go.  He let  her go, which was wise if he wanted to spare himself angst and pain. - All true, but what was Joss thinking???  How can they be ripping each other's hearts out from 8000 miles away.  I got turned off by the episode when Angel said they were looking for a girl with blue eyes.  WTF??? 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Oct 20 2009 04:54 am   #23Scarlet Ibis
Wait--ripping each others hearts out how?

And the blue eyes bit--didn't bother me cause that episode really wasn't so much about Buffy, and that was just one other tid bit that made that point clear.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Oct 20 2009 05:06 am   #24nmcil
The quality and character of Spike is established very early in the series in "Hellbound" - Spike is his own man, he created/transformed himself in his African trials and spiritually and intellectually completes his self-creation and heroic standard by his self-sacrifice - the ultimate test of the heroic model  in the Buffyverse and Angelverse.   Spike does not need to be the warrior for TPB or for Buffy, he takes on the full identify with the drinking from the cup.    One of the reasons that his winning over Angel/Angelus and finally being able to drink from the cup is the metaphor for his rite of passage into manhood and that he also has the right to take on the mantle and work of being a hero. 


PAVAYNE: Yes, squirm, boy. It won't make a difference. Getting what you deserve.

SPIKE: You're right. I do deserve to go to hell. But not today.

(knocks Pavane off him)

PAVAYNE: You dare!

(the portal closes behind Spike's back)

SPIKE: Quite a bit, mate. Reality bends to desire. That was it, right? That's why I could touch Fred, write your name in the glass. All I had to do was want it bad enough.

(he wills his clothes back on, fixes Pavane with the pattened Spike Look of Menace)
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Oct 21 2009 09:35 pm   #25Psilo 
nmcil - you said it all right there.
Oct 22 2009 04:11 am   #26Spikez_tart
he wills his clothes back on - Sighs. Never a happy ending.

Wait--ripping each others hearts out how?  If they're together, they'd have to.  What fun would it be if they got along. 
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?