While Buffy is lounging around Sunnydale drinking Beer, Spike goes to LA and is EVIL.  

First there's the very fun speech about Angel's hairgel, then Spike attacks Angel in the parking lot and says he has a plan but he got bored (couldn't wait to kick Angel's ass is more like it) but then it turns out that he really does have a plan and Angel falls for it.  He gets to trash Angel's apartment, too.  The writers on Angel seem to appreciate evil Spike and he really looks wicked with the pink eyeliner. 

I'm trying to figure out how Spike knows Cordelia.  I guess she saw him while he was running around Sunnydale High during School Hard, but how does he know her?  One of the mysteries that fanfic was created to solve.  Also, he says he likes her hair, which is plainly a lie cause it looks like hell, proving that Spike has emotional depths.

Other than the torturing Angel fun, you see Spike being jealous of Buffy and bitching because she had sex with Parker.  Why would he care unless he's already feeling that love-hate tweak?  At the end Spike swears to go it alone in the future, which foreshadows his future career in Sunnydale. 

Spike returns to Sunnydale and it takes him two weeks which is pretty strange since he managed to get to LA before Oz and he drove to Africa on his motorcycle in S6 and it only took a couple of days. 

Finally, Angel destroys the ring.  The big jerk.  He is just too pompous for words here.  Also, Buffy's an idiot for sending it to him.

I really liked this ep for several reasons.  Love Ats, but I love it even more when they have Spike on.

The introduction of Marcus reiterated the fact (that some in fandom overlook for some reason) that all vampires are not the same.  He was disturbingly perverse.

In addition to not to not having much patience for torture, methinks Spike just couldn't bare to torture the old beefcake himself.

Tart, Spike probably knew about Cordy cause he made it his business to know everything about Buffy, including her little friends, or I guess, who her little friends were dating?  He doesn't make note of knowing Oz though...at least then, yes?

Spike's opening monologue is one of the best, most hilarious things I've ever seen.

And I wouldn't say he was jealous of Parker so much as twisting an emotional knife in Angel's gut.  Angel had that coming considering all the craptastic emotional barbs he flung Spike's way in "Lovers Walk."

And...maybe he didn't decide to go back to Sunnydale right away?  Also...what the crap happens to his car?

I find it hard to believe that Spike made it to Africa on his motorcycle, I think he found other transportation along the way.  Buffy sending the ring to Angel I always thought was stupid, but I get why he destroyed it.  That would have been taking the easy way out and at the time, he figured he didn't deserve it.  And obviously Marcus proved that he couldn't just leave it lying around, you never knew who or what would stumble across it.  The only time I think Spike would have seen Cordy was probably in "Halloween," they never actually had any scenes together that I can recall.  Love the beginning monologue of this episode, seriously the best thing ever.

Marcus brings up questions - who the hell would turn him?  And, why is he (and Dalton) wearing glasses?  Whoops, one dropped on the writer floor.  

Spike made it to Africa on his motorcycle  - got you.  :P

what the crap happens to his car? - He's still got it when he takes Buffy on their stake out "date."  I don't think we see it after that. 


 

 

Oh, I know the last time we see it in FFL, but I figured since we were talking about Spike's various types of transportation...

Also get why Angel destroyed it, though I'm not sure why Buffy sent it to Angel, but I didn't have a problem with him having it.

Spike's opening is my absolute favourite moment on Tv. Ever. It is epic.

I completely agree.  Even after all this time, I still crack up whenever I see that.

Agree - that scene is hysterical. And it's interesting that it came on Angel's show, where he's supposed to be the hero. :)
I've got no problem with Spike recognizing Cordy, not being seen in his car and stuff like that.  We only see a day or two's worth of events each week - so as long as the writers don't write something impossible based on what we have seen, I think it's pretty easy to accept that other things took place off-camera.  One of those would have been, as Scarlett pointed out, that Spike set out to learn about Buffy and her friends.  No doubt he would have seen Cordy several times during the course of his time in Sunnydale in Season II. They may even have had some brief interaction at some point, who knows?  It's not an unreasonable assumption that she and Spike would recognize each other.  Ditto for his car. It's old. Maybe sometimes it's in the shop. :)  The motorcycle to Africa is funny, but I always figured he rode it to the docks or to the airport.  Probably the docks, as I think he says in TGIQ that he'd never flown?  It was a speedy trip, no matter how he got there.

Yep slayme--Spike (or Angel) had never rode a plane.  Always boats to get overseas (though Angel said he was on a helicopter once, but I think it was that one time he was hanging off of one to stop those Watchers from trying to shoot Faith or something...right?).  Spike probably pawned the bike and got a boat ticket to Africa I reckon.  Yep.

And I think...when it comes to Spike, even if it is Angel's show, there aren't any limits.  I think it's because of the history between them.

I don't remember if I was surprised or not when Spike won in "Destiny," since it is Angel's show but....yeah, anything can go when it comes to those two :)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, there's no way he could have gotten to Africa so fast on just a motorcycle.  He still has it, though, unless that was another one he rode on with Andrew.

I have a friend who watched Buffy for the first time this summer (and Angel too- he loved this episode and laughed for a good ten minutes straight about Spike's monologue) and I remember, at the end of season six, he didn't believe me that Spike had gone to Africa- his answer was something like "You can't get to Africa in a day or two. It's not possible.". My answer? 'Brian, it doesn't have to make sense- like most things on Buffy. Just go with it and try not to think about it too hard. It'll only make you want to pull your hair out." lol.
I also always wondered what happened to Spike's car.
Also, would love to know why Spike didn't torture Angel himself. I'm sure it would have loved to (last time he saw him was when he was constatnly taking Dru, even if he wasn't 'Angel' at the time). I'm also sure Spike would have been very good with the torture thing, even if he was impatient as hell. He did live with Angelus for twenty years after all. Maybe it was just a way to introduce the creepy factor that is Marcus *shudder*. I'd name that guy the creepiest bad guy on eith show, right after the Gentlemen.
Didn't Spike and Angel fly in an airpalne in order to go resuce Fred when Illyria took over her body? Wasn't that before TGIQ?
Oh, and I agree about the gem. Sending it to Angel I think was stupid. I get that finding that one moment of true happiness is like one in a million, but would you really wanna risk it? I mean, invincable Angelus. Not a good thing. I also get why he destroyned it, even if I think it was a stupid idea. If he didn't want to use it all the time, then he should have put it away somewhere for safe keeping. It would come in handy say, when the next apocolypse came around.

Yes, but as I stated before, he couldn't be too careful.  You never knew when someone would get their hands on it, whether it was in a safe place or not.  It was probably better to destroy it, not take any chances.  As for Spike not torturing Angel, simple, torture was Angelus' thing, not his.  He never really believed in that, even if it was someone he hated.  I guess he preferred someone else to do the dirty work for him, which is why Spike to me was not a very good villain.  I never considered him to be all that evil.

Agreed, Tammy.

I think the difference is..Spike's brand of evil didn't involve perversion.  Psychological warfare and torture wasn't his thing.  That isn't to say he didn't try some of it those first few months with Angelus, but before 1880 was up, he figured out what he liked--to smash and bash and make a general mess of things, which was to the annoyance of Angelus.

And yes--the first time either Spike or Angel was on a plane was in "A Hole in the World," and they're stiffly sitting there, frowning, arms folded, not moving from their seats...Not so much in TGiQ ;) 

LOL, oh, I'd say it to his face.  I ain't scared=P

Okay geography lesson - There's an ocean between America and Africa so no motorcycle.  :)

why Spike didn't torture Angel himself - In What's Your Line 2, Drusilla is torturing Angel:

SPIKE: Pft! I'll see him die soon enough. I've never been much for the pre-show.
Angelus: Too bad. That's what Drusilla likes best, as I recall.

One thing that I never liked about this episode is the treatment for what to do with the Gem of Amara - not Buffy's choice to send it to Angel "to be in good hands" but the idea that her Watcher would not have argued for a very different disposition of the ring.  That this ultra powerful ring of magic would be allowed to get into the hands of any vampire, or to Angel/Angelus with his unstable soul situation is an obvious bad idea - where is Giles and his duty and responsibilities as a Watcher? 

Buffy is still acting out of her history and love for Angel - even in the middle of all the Parker affair and the start of Riley-Buffy, she sends this ring that will give Angel/Angelus the power to live and be in the sun with her if he chooses to do so.  With the Gem and his taking back his humanity, Angel/Angelus clearly feels that being a warrior for light and to stay on his journey of redemption is the most important path that he wants to travel.  

One thing that I liked very much about the episode is  the psychological  clues about Angel/Angelus and Spike - how different these vampires are. 

Spike takes his loss and is ready to move on to something new - a new outlook for how to go on, Angel/Angelus is all "broody" and serious about his history and trying so very hard to redeem himself from all his past sins as well as why he was sent back to this world. 

SPIKE: Son of a *bitch*! I do the work, I do the digging, fight off a Slayer, *drive* to LA, hire the help, and what do I get? *royally screwed*, is what! Well, that cinches it. No more partners. From now on, I?m my own man. A lone wolf. Sole survivor. Look out, here comes Spike! The biggest, baddest, mother...

(A beam of sunlight from one of the bullet holes hits the back of his head and his hair ignites. He ducks and puts his hair out with his hands)

SPIKE: I really hope they kill each other.

Think Angel/Angelus did make the right decision to destroy the ring - in every instance when the gem is being used, one thing is clear - it is very easily taken away from the vampire that is using it - even when it is not worn, Doyle very easily finds it.   The ring, once the vampire world finds out about it, would be constantly sought after and fought over - unless the ring can be protected and bound to its current owner by magic, it would be source of fear and worry or its owner.

Spike takes his loss and is ready to move on to something new - a new outlook for how to go on, Angel/Angelus is all "broody" and serious about his history and trying so very hard to redeem himself from all his past sins as well as why he was sent back to this world.

Not necessarily...it doesn't take Spike too long to head back to Sunnydale.  Unfinished business, sure, but if he had moved on to something new, he never would have been chipped :P  And I think...while it's true at times Angel can be a bit melodramatic at times, I don't think he's all that broody (in LA). I think that---the fact that he is allegedly consistently brooding--is more of a fanon thing than canon.  He laughs, he jokes, he goes out, he doesn't refer to Angelus/himself in the third person...

"I think that---the fact that he is allegedly consistently brooding--is more of a fanon thing than canon. "
 
Angel/Angelus simply has a hell of a lot to deal with, it seems right that he would be series and filled with sadness and a great sense of angst and loss.   I also wonder how much of a fanon wank is part of the idea that he tried or wanted to dictate to Buffy on her life or how to do her duty as a slayer - that comes up so often in FF.

I was thinking more along the line of Spike accepts his loss of the ring and his efforts and thinks of new way to reach his goals - while, I think that Angelus would never just let a thing go without getting some satisfaction  - either by getting the gem back or getting his revenge for its being taken from him.

If I remember ATS correctly, there were some brooding moments. I remember one where Cordy was trying to get Agel to go out with them (I don't remember if Doyle was still in the picture or if Wesley was in yet) and then eventually was like 'oh, you can stay and sit in a room in the dark all alone'- which he did. Myabe it really wasn't brooding, but it sure seemed like brooding. lol. But the amout of it IS probably exegerated a little.

she sends this ring that will give Angel/Angelus the power to live and be in the sun with her if he chooses to do  - This is a VERY interesting thought.  Buffy sends him the Come Back to Me Gift and he destroys it.  (And, when she comes to see him and he becomes human and can be with her, he reverses that too and wipes out her memory of it.)  I've often thought that Angel was more interested in his personal journey to redemption that in being with Buffy and we see that he rejects her three times (first time by leaving Sunnydale.) 

SPIKE: Son of a *bitch*! I do the work, - This is almost as funny as the first scene.  The worst thing they did to Spike in S7 was to take away the funny.

I agree, Tart. Part of Spike's charm (evil or good) was the funny he could bring to a scene.  Granted, there wasn't much to be funny about in S. 7, but still...

she sends this ring that will give Angel/Angelus the power to live and be in the sun with her if he chooses to do  - This is a VERY interesting thought.  Buffy sends him the Come Back to Me Gift and he destroys it.

I disagree - I don't think Buffy sent Angel the ring with the thought that they could be together. Or if she did, then she seriously misunderstood Angel's reasons for leaving. Being a vampire means more than just not being able to go out in sunlight. Angel left not just because of that, but because Buffy would age and Angel never would, because Buffy would eventually die and Angel never would, because Buffy might want children someday and Angel could never give them to her, because they might want to have sex again someday and they couldn't have it with each other. The Gem of Amara doesn't solve any of those problems - nor does it solve the biggest problem of all, that Angel sees himself as a monster and he thinks Buffy deserves better than that.

I think Buffy sent Angel the ring because she wanted to protect him. She wanted him to have the benefit of invincibility so that she wouldn't have to worry about him being in danger. And when Angel destroys the ring, it's not a rejection of Buffy, because the ring doesn't get rid of all the obstacles to being with her.

Or if she did, then she seriously misunderstood Angel's reasons for leaving. - You're right Eow, still it was an interesting thought.  I doubt that teenage Buffy does have much understanding for Angel and his thinking, beyond the things you mentioned, there's the whole thing of him having to redeem himself from all the evil he's done which she can't wholly appreciate.

I just thought that it was an interesting symbol and metaphor - Buffy sending the ring to Angel - and while all the extreme problems that a relationship between them would have, and I believe that Angel/Angelus does make the right decision to leave, as a metaphor about Buffy's story with Angel/Angelus and her growing up arc, I find it interesting. 

With the character of Angel/Angelus as presented in the series, how could he ever find peace or joy in his life?  He finds love with Buffy, but he never really finds a sense of individual peace or relief from his anguish from his life as a vampire.  Even doing all his work in LA and in Sunnydale, Angel is always burdened with his vampiric past.  When does he come closest to his release from his pain?  I think it comes when he is willing to give his life to save Darla - his ultimate self sacrifice and the closes he will ever come to a connection with the redemption, his soul, and his humanity.  With Buffy and their physical consummation of their love his finds great joy and ecstasy - but for the purpose of being redeemed from his killings, I think that spiritual connection of purpose and redemption and peace will only come with the ecstasy and rapture from offering his life for another.  

In the comic book season, he has made the transition from understanding his greatest love from Buffy to Connor and I think that Angel/Angelus will at some point find his final peace and humanity with a self-sacrifice of his life for another.  Spike, does not perish in Chosen in pain and suffering, his self-sacrifice puts him in a state of grace and nirvana, he is in a state of rapture and spiritual bliss. 

I don't believe either that Buffy sends the Gem of Amara with the intent that this will bring them back together, but from the symbolism it is interesting. The first time she sees Angel/Angelus in IWRY, they are doing exactly what Angel does with that ring, they are together in the sunshine of day.   Again from the symbolism perspective, Angel/Angelus at first accepts his humanity as the consequence of his battle as a warrior, with the Gem of Amara it was from a gift that he did not have to fight for and he make the choice not to wear it - it is only after he is tortured and again goes into battle to save the children that he wears it. 

test

I had no problem with Buffy sending Angel the ring until season 7 when I wished deeply that she had it to give to Spike before the final battle!  Of course that would have taken away from his journey and self-sacrifice which were so important to Spike's development, but in my fantasies, it would have been nice.  In another thread there was a discussion of writing fanfic in which Buffy did save the ring and later gave it to Spike.  Do you know of any story with such a plot?

I also had no problem with Angel destroying the ring except that his reasoning didn't make sense to me.  Right before he smashes it, doesn't Angel say something about it would be too tempting to live his life in the daylight wearing the ring, but he is afraid that would make him forget about all the dangers that lurk at night--and it is in the times of darkness when his help is needed most?  I can't see that ever happening, so I thought it was a weak argument.  Maybe the writers were just trying to be poetic with that lovely excuse, but I always thought Angel (with the support of Cordy and Wesley) was too noble to ever stop helping the most helpless. Now if he had said he was worried about Angelus or another evil vampire getting it or even that he feared he would become a target of everyone wanting the ring just like Angel had become Spike's target, I would have understood destroying it better.