BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

I in Team

Jan 18 2010 03:27 pm   #1Spikez_tart
In which we find out that Xander likes kinky sex and thinks Riley is okay in an oafish kind of way, Buffy and Willow both wear extremely tacky skirts, Riley is a liar (he lies about something, I can't remember what), Riley is stupid and Buffy doesn't really care about Riley. 

Buffy/Riley -  They don't have sex until after they go out for a rousing fight with vampires and Buffy gets inducted.  Riley still needing Mama Walsh's approval?

Giles/Spike - Giles tries to make nice and essentially invites Spike into the group.  Spike isn't having any of it, but does state that "he's not leaving" Sunnydale until he gets the chip out, which is more or less true if you don't count his fun filled vacation in Africa.  Spike gets tagged by the soldier boys and returns to Giles (not Buffy) for help.  He's never far from the group after this.  Also, is this the First James No Shirt scene?  Yum.  And, when Willow does the spell that makes everybody's hair stand on end, Spike's is still smooth.  Must be a vampire thing.

Buffy gets invited in - The Initiative is really cheesy looking with those foil blankets tacked up everywhere and the crappy plywood doors and the stick on room numbers.  What was Walsh thinking of, letting Buffy in there in the first place?  Walsh watches Buffy and Riley have sex and how creepy is that?  Maybe she wants to make sure those vitamins are working.  Or something else?  Since we find out later that Riley has that chip in his chest (symbolically heart) maybe Walsh is expecting something to happen that ended up in the writer's recycle bin.

Buffy gets invited out - gee that didn't take long.  Interestingly, when they all plan to hide from the Initiative, they assume Spike will be with them.  He says no and who can blame him?

Riley - just how stupid is this guy?  In the previous week, he gets a 911 call at Giles' house re a demon.  This week, he's chasing Hostile 17 with a transponder and he's standing right outside Giles' house and doesn't figure out that maybe he should look for Spike there?  Duh. 

Law - The word "Law" is prominantly engraved on one of the crypts and the word also appears on a poster over Willow's head in Buffy and Willow's dorm room.  Beats me what this means, if anything. 

Forrest is wearing a light grey hoodie - it's a death sentence.









If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 18 2010 05:34 pm   #2coalitiongirl
 Also, is this the First James No Shirt scene?  Yum.  

We see him shirtless in "The Harsh Light of Day," beforehand. But no one's complaining. :D

And, when Willow does the spell that makes everybody's hair stand on end, Spike's is still smooth.  Must be a vampire thing.

Or possibly a hairgel thing. ;)

Walsh watching Riley have sex is definitely creepy, on so many levels. There are certain elements of a Freudian relationship between Riley and Walsh, and here it is, in reverse, I think possibly to highlight that very relationship.

Another explanation is simply that she's  observing Slayer sex to see scientifically if there are any differences between superpowered and normal human sex. She's sitting in front of a screen, dispassionate, so it may be something less voyeuristic and more of a study.

Law - The word "Law" is prominantly engraved on one of the crypts and the word also appears on a poster over Willow's head in Buffy and Willow's dorm room.  Beats me what this means, if anything.  

Does anyone remember seeing that poster before? The same people probably do all the sets, so it might not be a coincidence if it's suddenly here now, twice. JW tends to put in verbal clues to an episode's overall theme (the famous "Quasimodo Crush Scene," Machiavelli in "As You Were..." ) , and "law" would be very interesting in this episode...

 
Jan 18 2010 06:47 pm   #3nmcil
One obvious connection to use of "law" is with the Initiative, Walsh and Buffy  - it applies to all three characters.  The Initiative consider themselves the enforcers of law and even the "right law" - Walsh and her scientific team consider themselves the law and completely above the rule of law - Buffy and her inner circle are the law regarding demons in Sunnydale.  For Spike, the law is his capture and imprisonment with his chip - what is it Buffy calls him with her serial killer line? 

Law is all about perceptions and  self made/agreed upon  rules by societies - and while following those "societal rules" works to keep huge and small social units able to function, following "the law" without question, as does Riley and the Initiative soldiers is probably the most dangerous of all things.  Intellectual examination and free will should never be given over to "law"  or "the group" - only bad things can come from that.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 19 2010 12:26 am   #4CM 
Walsh doesn't trust Buffy, and Riley's her top boy. She knows Buffy's getting her hooks deeper into Riley after the connection of sex. There are legitimate scientific studies that observe couples having sex for sociological and psychological purposes.

But, since Buffy trusts Riley and Riley trusts Buffy, it's easy access for Walsh to study the Slayer. And use the Slayer for her own purposes..........except Buffy isn't easily controlled.

The giant Initiative lab is an actual military building where they built and housed Stealth Bombers. They did very little modification in there. And the pit is lined with Mylar, not blankets. It's a "clean space"

Shirtless in HLOD. Panther crawl, remember?
Jan 19 2010 01:02 am   #5nmcil
I don't remember if that line from Maggie Walsh is part of this episode - "make me proud" - that is another very creepy Walsh moment, especially as she uses a similar phrase with Adam. 

What I found especially disturbing about Walsh watching Buffy and Riley was her drinking from that cup and the analytical quality - for me it was like she was deciding that Buffy's life simply did not matter - if they could use her without creating any problems fine, if not kill her.  And her fellow doctor was equal to her, they are above the laws of man - just like in "The Modern Prometheus"
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 19 2010 03:21 am   #6Spikez_tart
There are legitimate scientific studies that observe couples having sex for sociological and psychological purposes.
Yes, but they know it's happening and have given permission.  The coffee drinking makes it even creeepier.  I think Maggie has a thing for Riley.

Shirtless in HLOD - smack head and runs to find disk.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 19 2010 07:29 am   #7TammyDevil666
Walsh was just creepy in general, everything she did proved that.  And the panther crawl, even though it's with Harmony, is the sexiest thing ever.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jan 20 2010 03:53 am   #8Spikez_tart
And the panther crawl, even though it's with Harmony, is the sexiest thing ever.  Hey - don't forget the Invisible Buffy Up Hump.  :)
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 20 2010 04:29 am   #9TammyDevil666
Where is my mind?  Can't forget that;)
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Jan 20 2010 05:08 am   #10nmcil
What do you folks make of the connection between the violence and the sex between Buffy and Riley and their attack against the demon?  I know that we have the slaying makes me horny perspective from Faith, but why is that connected with Buffy and Riley?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 20 2010 08:33 am   #11CM 
1) adrenaline. 2) victory makes people want to celebrate. 3) fighting for your life makes you want to re-affirm life and vitality. 4) even just sparring is hot, so kicking ass together is even hotter.
Jan 20 2010 03:13 pm   #12Scarlet Ibis
Re Walsh watching the Biley sex--

She didn't just randomly put cameras right above Riley's bed, guys.  Who knows how many times she's watched Riley have sex or jerk off?  Probably more of the latter than the former, but still.

I'm not sure what it was Walsh was studying...but she was mos def grooming Riley, and in ways he wasn't even aware of.

ETA:  Numbers two and three didn't apply to Buffy though CM.  Not so sure about four either since the one time they did spar (or few--kind of rusty), she held back/faked it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 20 2010 07:24 pm   #13nmcil
That scene with the violence of the battle and the sex between Buffy and Riley has always seemed mysterious to me - like a strange connection as it the very creepy Walsh connection to Riley in particular - but she is basically creating/remodeling her "boys."

excerpt from the Bronze scene:

RILEY: That's us. Let's go.

WILLOW: When did you get a pager? What's going--?

(Riley steps up to the table and Buffy stands up.)

RILEY: That's our cue. Mother wants us.

The more one looks at this episode, the more respect I have for its structure.  Everything from the "it's so easy to totally dislike Buffy" - how they have her set-up like a clueless, thoughtless new love bird"  over Riley.  Even how SMG uses her body language and tone of voice, Buffy is once again in the All About Me and My Boyfriend Mode and her new Toy Box Playthings of Riley and the Initiative.   Did she simply forget how her life has been saved by her old friends and warriors that helped all these years?  The line about their Scooby Night Together is wonderful - and kudos to SMG and AH with making us feel such sympathy for Willow and, at least for me, a  real dislike for Buffy.  Her old friends are the last thing on her mind and agenda. 

café scene: 

BUFFY: Hmm. How was your night?

WILLOW: Like a normal person's. Light on the action-pack. Hope tonight's not too much of a let-down for you. Excitementwise. (a pause) You do remember about tonight, right?

BUFFY: Bronze. The gang. Are you kidding? I wouldn't be anywhere else. I miss you guys. We haven't been able to spend that much time together lately.

WILLOW: You've been busy. Fighting armies and stuff. Not to mention other distractions from a romantic--

(sees that Buffy's no longer paying attention)

BUFFY: Riley just walked in

Contrast this scene to the scene with Willow and Tara and how much Willow has invested her feelings and connection to Buffy for their Bronze Night - plus how wonderful the future Tara love for Willow is set up and the family history of Tara.

Next we have the actual  " BUFFY: Bronze. The gang. Are you kidding? I wouldn't be anywhere else. I miss you guys. We haven't been able to spend that much time together lately."  Scooby Night.  Buffy saunters in at least one hour late and just when Willow get all happy and justified with her Buffy Friendship, walks in Buffy and all her new play things and Boy Friend.  Followed by again, totally clueless self-centered mode Buffy.  Even the clothing that Buffy wears looks like a Buffy on display for "the boys"  all bangles and beads and loud colors, while the boy warriors are all in their drab Initiative style.  Buffy may have given over her old friends and fellow warriors for this new team - but her "I  In Team" status is all on false and soon to crumble ground.  All her much hoped for escape to Mr. Joe Normal with all the new play toys will all come falling down as soon as she goes against the Initiative's formula for its warriors - no questions, follow orders and do as commanded.

I loved how Willow, the other new love developing couple, is used to be the voice of reason and truth - was such a poignant movement when Willow talks to Buffy about how fast and unquestioning she is and the first thing that Buffy connects with is "I thought you liked Riley?"

It's very easy to dislike Buffy's character but how this is all set up so that Buffy has to come down to earth and reality about who her real friends are what her real role as The Slayer is - while Buffy gets that Pager, the modern tech stuff, Willow and Tara are exchanging real family and life connections with the gem that Tara offers Willow.  It's magic, family and deep friendship that will destroy Adam.

It all makes a great set up for the last scene:


GILES: Spike-- lord knows why I'm telling you this-- it's for your own good. As long as the Initiative is in operation it's not safe for you here.

(Cut to Buffy who has just walked in.)

BUFFY: No. It's not safe for any of us.

 
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 21 2010 03:03 am   #14Spikez_tart
Walsh - maybe she's planning on giving Riley some new demon parts.  Ahem.

Biley sex and violence - just like Faith said - killing gets [Slayers] hot.  Soldier boys, too, apparently.  Their sex scene was soooo pathetic.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 21 2010 05:37 am   #15Scarlet Ibis
<--still thinks it's odd that Walsh didn't want to do an in depth study on Buffy.

And I always thought it was un-Buffy like to leave Willow, Xander and Giles behind for the "cool" kids/"civilians" or whatever.

Oh Tart--how you make me laugh :P
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Jan 22 2010 10:41 pm   #16Spikez_tart

I have to restrain myself all day at work.  That would be a cool story, Walsh picking Buffy's brain apart to find out what makes her tick.  Very un-buffy like and for that clunk Riley, too.  If I was the gang, I'd be pretty po'd.
 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?