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BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
Goodbye Iowa
The next few episodes have their moments, but the writers are in a building mode so not a lot of really exciting stuff happens.
Maggie Walsh is still dead from last week.
Spike is really into knitting isn’t he – knitting booties and cunning sweater sets
Willow: Plus Riley he seems like he wouldn't tell a little white lie let alone a whole bunch of big dirty ones. Willow doesn’t have a clue about this guy, does she?
Riley meets Spike – okay is nothing going through that thick skull of his? Just a few weeks ago Buffy told him that she was going to marry a guy named Spike. Can’t believe he forgot that. Now here she is protecting Hostile 17. In Riley’s favor, he doesn’t do anything about Spike. No doubt he’ll regret that later. Spike is content to hang around with the gang until Riley shows up.
Willow: Well, look who's cranky bear in the morning. Never let it be said that JW missed an opportunity to identify a male character as a bear. Personally, I prefer Blondie Bear. :)
Here’s an interesting exchange. Buffy agrees that Riley is Boring (and so is Xander):
Anya: And after everything you've been through with Angel. You really should get yourself a boring boyfriend. Like Xander. You can't have Xander!
Buffy: That was the idea. Riley was supposed to be Mr. Joe Guy. We were going to do dumb things like hold hands through the daises going tra-la-la.
Buffy seems to be having a mental episode, she's watching a roadrunner cartoon and says that could never happen. Earth to Buffy...
Riley: Maggie's dead. Happy now? – Okay, Buffy really didn’t deserve that. Riley is a jerk. Later Riley goes psycho. I like him better that way.
Riley: Right. Except rules don't seem to apply much these days do they? Like if I shot you right now I don't know if I'd have a corpse on my hands or one pissed off vampire.
Xander: I totally get it now. Can I have sex with Riley too? What can I say? Is Xander jealous of Buffy or jealous of Angel and Spike.
We find out that Spike is carving out a rep for himself as a badass vampire and demon killer. He must be crazy. Or he must love killing a lot. He gets his ass kicked.
Adam – I know a lot of people don’t like him much, but I just can’t resist a guy who has a USB port right into his brain, a floppy drive in his chest and a handle on his back. The handle is really bizarre. Who’s going to pick him up?
(Just watched the first half of the episode. Being a mom makes it hard to watch BtVS :( )
- Spike mocks Buffy's taste in men. Watch what you're saying, Spike, you're gonna be Buffy's next bad taste.
- Willow thinks that Riley can't lie. Little do you know about Riley, Will.
- Giles: Absolutely not! I will not squat in that dank hole.
Spike: What, it was good enough for me, but you're above it all?
Giles: Precisely.
I get Spike being rude. But Giles? Xander is standing right in front of you. I've always known that Giles had no respect for Xander. :(
- Poor Riley. Maggie was like a second mother to him, it's hard when you discover that your mentor betrayed your trust – see Buffy in Helpless when Giles betrayed her.
- Now Riley feels betrayed by Buffy. Two shocks at once. Maggie was lying to him, hiding the fact that she was planning to kill Buffy. Buffy was lying to him, hiding Spike all that time from him.
- Riley: Buffy, what is this? You're hiding an H.S.T.?
Xander: Why don't you just back off and let her ask the questions, Jack? Your boss just tried to make monster food out of her.
You tell him, Xander!
- I know many fans hate Riley, but I actually feel so bad for him here. His whole life, his purpose, everything he believed in, all was a lie. Maggie lied to him all his life. I can understand how reluctant he was to believe Buffy and Giles.
- The Scoobies in Xander's basement? So much love for that scene!
- Buffy telling Giles and Anya not to make scenes from her parents' marriage – the Giles/Anya fans can use that as subtext. Apparently, Xander's parents weren't making those scenes that night.
- I'm curious about why Buffy would think of Riley as Mr. Normal when she knew that he worked in the Initiative. He's not normal.
- Anya: So dump him. But you can't have Xander!
Buffy: I'll try and remember that.
She won't remember that in season 8. :)
- I love Buffy's Yummy Sushi PJs! I also love Xander's ducky PJs from S8.
- I love Riley defending Buffy to Forrest, even though he'd been too shocked earlier he couldn't believe her when she said that Maggie was trying to get her killed.
- The Willow/Tara conversation, just exchange spells with sex and there you have it. :)
- Is this the last time we see Willy?
- The scene between Buffy and Riley at Willy's shows clearly that Buffy and the Scoobies aren't as black and white as some believe. Riley is clearly seeing the whole situation in black and white, but not the Scoobies.
- Poor Riley, his whole world crumbling before him. This is a very good Riley episode. That scene with the old woman at Willy's bar is so powerful.
- "Can I have sex with Riley, too?" "He (Angel) is a very attractive guy." "He's (Spike) compact but well muscled." Xander is in love with all of Buffy's boyfriends. *goes to read a Spander fic!*
Humans can be the greatest monsters of all and their own worst enemies - One does have to feel sympathy for Riley, his entire identity and connection to his support and cultural world view has been taken away from him. Interesting how Riley is used in the dreamscape sequences as well, the cowboy and the arms dealer. The thing with Riley, and why for some viewer he does fall short, is he not asking questions and being the perfect "Good Soldier" - You just know that had he never become an important part of Buffy's life, he would never had started asking questions about 314. Deep Down in his heart, IMVHO, he wants to be a part of the Initiative and have connection with that group. For me, this "loss of identity" arc is the best of the entire Riley story.
But Adam also serves as the segue, IMO, into the transformation journey for Spike, his change from The Monster into The Man/Vamp
I love Xander's I totally get it now. Can I have sex with Riley too? Boys and their Toys - goes right alongside Riley's bit about not liking to brag.
More than any other scenes, Buffy's Mr. Joe Guy shows that she does love Riley but she starts from the position of "failure"
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I actually believe that she does love Riley, even in S5, but her way of showing it isn't enough for Riley. Riley obviously loves her more (like Anya loves Xander more than he loves her, like Spike loves Buffy more than she loves him) and it hurts that Riley had given up all he was and followed Buffy, but then he gets treated like something breakable. He's used to being the leader, the alpha male, that's why Buffy/Riley didn't work, both of them are leaders, and both of them hate to just follow. Leaving was the best thing Riley did for himself, he was able to become something he loved and he met a woman who's also a leader like Buffy but managed to make it work with Riley. Which says that there's no such thing as "can't happen" or "can't work", if Buffy and Riley talked, they would have probably made it work, but the lack of communication killed their relationship.
Moderator
I am upper management.
I'm not sure that talking and honest reveals about how he felt, or about how Buffy lives with a lover and partner in life. The writers have all the stuff about Buffy telling Riley that she has opened up her life, heart and all to him, more than anyone else in her life. And I suspect that the problems that Riley had with their differences in physical capabilities and traditional cultural roles is something that could be talked away. The only thing that I can see where talking might have done some good is when Joyce became ill and Buffy went into "strong woman role" - and that is a big maybe. Buffy was completely under stress but being The Slayer demands that she be strong and we also have her history with Angel/Angelus, that imprinting from her emotional weakness would also play a huge role in how Buffy reacts to her mother's illness. Frankly, Buffy is not a normal young woman that needs or would like a strong man to take care of her, being the Slayer demands that she be strong and in control. You remember those scenes when Riley is running on his enhanced strengths and he looks very pleased in those scenes, they show them working as a team, but that is not the real Riley Finn, but that is what he wants to be, that is the relationship that he wants.
I personally never believed that these two people could be in a successful relationship - When you are in a close relationship with a person that is in the same field and there is a great desparity in the level of success, that is one of the most difficult circumstances for a couple to live with. Only the most confident, strong and secure people can live with that kind of relationship - and that was not Riley Finn.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Three girls in the bed like cute litte bears with their fluffy pajamas on. Very cute.
More than any other scenes, Buffy's Mr. Joe Guy shows that she does love Riley - I guess she does, but she doesn't respect him much and it seems that the further he gets away from the Initiative, the less she respects him, until she sees him as all weak and kitteny. Which is ridiculous. He's very strong for a human.
For the record, I only hate Riley half the time which would be all time he spends with Buffy. She brings out the doofus in him.
Guest
And all those statements by Xander really begs the question brought up in Coalition Girls Twilight season 8 fic. Why hasn't Xander been with any men. He's got to be the most obvious closet case ever!
And the AYW thing always smelled like a setup to me. Spike being the Doctor didn't make sense.
I've read an excellent essay on AYW and the setup that we Spuffy fans know that it was:
Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned To Stop Seething And Love "As You Were"
On another [more relevant] note, I don't think that Buffy loved Riley at all, but more loved the idea of him. Her relationships, when she confesses her love to boyfriends, never made sense to me, except for Spike in Chosen, and I don't even think she thought she meant it there.
First, Angel- I think that the first time she says she loves him is in "Lie to Me" (Correct me if I'm wrong), when she says that she loves him, but she doesn't trust him. Their relationship before then is 1. He gives her information from time to time (and a jacket, once). 2. They kiss, she finds out he's a vampire, he goes all gung-ho and stakes his sire (a little unbelievable considering his reaction to her in Angel, but whatever), they don't get together. 3. She dies, he's not really involved. 4. She cries on his arm or something like that. 5. They flirt for a while or whatever.
Based on the show and what we've seen of them, not counting the night he slept on her floor, they've spent, what? The equivalent of half a day together over the space of a year? So they're attracted to each other. But love? That's why I have so much trouble with the idea of Bangel. It seems far too immature and contrived.
Riley, conversely, at this point, has been the good boyfriend for a while. But beyond that, they don't really have anything too special. A steady boyfriend is reliable, fine, and she might like him, but love? Hardly. He's kind of like the guy you date because he's around, you get along, and you don't want to be single at that time, so you're with him. I don't remember seeing anything up to this point where their relationship really reaches a huge hurdle that they have to overcome with their love- and having Buffy say it at this point, while they're working through this hurdle, seems forced and false to me. I think she'd want to love him, especially at this point when he needs it (similar to Spike in Chosen), but they haven't evolved within the relationship enough to be in love.
And in Angel, didn't they draw the conncetion to the nazis and the Intative, or at least make a comparsion? The episode with Lawson? Wasn't the fact the nazis had abunch of plans on making vampires into weapons the reason the initative wanted the sub in the first place?
And I agree- I always thought that if anyone of them was going to go gay/bi, it would be Xander. So I have to agree with Coalition Girl- the writers were men. lol
- Wow, Riley pushing Willow roughly aside. I forgot about that, but Riley gets really aggressive when he's in a hurry.
- There's an icon someone made about Xander watching Buffy's back when they're going into the Initiative. I really love it. There should have been more Buffy/Xander teaming against evil. Like in high school years and briefly in S7. And of course, S8.
- The scientists weren't just experimenting on demons, they were also drugging their soldiers making them more than humans. Super powerful beings. You know, if Riley still kept those powers, he and Buffy would have been fine and dandy right now, probably with a few babies as well. Which sucks to think about, I really don't like the idea that Buffy needs someone exactly like her, only male, so she could be happy.
- The worst humiliation ever is when you were on top and suddenly you sank so low, lost others respect and were looked down on. Poor Spike.
- "You know, I don't generally like to kill humans - but I've learned it pays to be flexible in life." As Buffy grows up more, I think she'll get flexible concerning killing humans. Especially when said humans are against her now in S8.
- Riley blaming Buffy for breaking the security monitors, which is interesting. When he's with her, he's upset with her and blaming her for something she'd got nothing to do with. But when he's NOT with her, he defends her to his friends and is worried about her.
- Riley's shattering faith in Maggie, so heartbreaking. How he keeps defending her over and over to everybody.
- Xander's foolish bravery, attacking Adam and getting beaten down.
- The last scene with Buffy, Riley and Forrest reminds me of the scene in Normal Again. Buffy here plays Spike who wants to take care of Riley. Riley plays Buffy who lost conscious. And Forrest plays Xander, telling Buffy to back off, that he'll take care of Riley.
We are shown a Riley anxiously waiting to see if Buffy will come to him during ITW, but we also have to remember that by the time the meteor hit Sunnydale, he was also already making his way back to the Initiative.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The problem with Buffy/Riley was that by S5, Riley had no purpose, he was just Buffy's helpless boyfriend -the one she needs to protect and shields away from harm. No man or woman wants to be that person. I think if the Initiative were good, and Riley stayed there, he and Buffy would have made it, and Riley wouldn't be so insecure about himself, always comparing himself to Angel, and letting Spike's words get to him.
Guest
And I think Riley's appeal for Buffy was his supposed normality while being partially in her world and an even bigger sell for her was that he was Scooby approved. (Buffy wasn't interested in him at all at first) Buffy became ridiculously dependant on the Scoobies opinions after Angel.
It seemed sometime that the majority of the barriers in Buffy having a relationship with Spike wasn't Buffy herself but her fear of her friends opinion. Xander's yappy little dog/jealousd boyfriend impression for instance seem to be a major barrier. In particular in SR, when Buffy and Xander were in front of her house and he said something about how she used to let them decide who she was with .(I don't know where to look it up) I can remember being mad at Buffy because she didn't stand up and tell him that it wasn't his decision to tell her who to date and that she never decided who he or Willow could date.
And yes , Angel definitely made a better point about human evil, ironic considering it was Angel that they did the whol no soul equals evil, soul equals good thing for.
And Riley never could have fit into second banana position. He couldn't even stand being given less attention because of Buffy's sick mother and the Hellgod! If Spike had been her boyfriend instead of Riley he would've helped with her mother and the Hellgod fighting.
As little as the Scoobies really knew about demons (for instance all that demons can't love crap) and thier refusal to really learn more ( Anya could've told them a lot if they'd listened) they still knew one heck of alot more than Riley. Yet he acted as if he was some kind of expert . I really wanted his ignorance to get jerked out of him in some major way . Maybe have his grandfather visit and find out that Spike saved him from some Nazis before Riley's parents were born and therefore made it possible for Riley to exist. Have then relative find out what Riley does at the Initative and tear him a new one and tell him about how many Americans died to keep evil like the Initative down and tell Riley how disgusted he is and that he's ashamed to call Riley family.
Moderator
I am upper management.
I think it's mostly Buffy. The whole thing about her friends is just an excuse. The only one who dislikes Spike is Xander. Everybody else likes him just fine. Not to mention that Buffy dated Angel regardless of what Xander thought, now suddenly she cares what he thinks? No, it's not about the Scoobies as it is about Buffy being ashamed of Spike and her relationship with him.
In particular in SR, when Buffy and Xander were in front of her house and he said something about how she used to let them decide who she was with .
BUFFY: Xander, what I do with my personal life is none of your business.
XANDER: (softly) It used to be.
They weren't talking about relationships, but about Buffy's depression. Xander was upset she went to Spike instead of one of her friends. Buffy used to talk to him and Willow about her problems and fears, and now she doesn't talk to them at all.
I think the show did good job with Riley's character in S4, and this episode is the turning point for Riley who came to realize that not all demons are bad, and when we get to the episode where Oz returns, he'll understand more about loving one of them -Willow loving Oz and Buffy loving Angel.
Three cheers for coalitiongirl! Thanks for pointing us to that well-done essay you mentioned in an earlier post. The author did a really thorough job of finding holes in the story and hinting at plot nuances on the part of the writer (Petrie). Her entire "Riley conspiracy" against Spike makes perfect sense. Go read it. It will give you something to think about even if you don't agree with her.
Start:
BUFFY: You wanna tell 'em so badly? Go ahead. Know why? I tried to kill my friends, my sister, last week and guess how much they hate me? Zero. Zero much. So I'm thinking, sleeping with you... They'll deal.
End: (excerpts)
ANYA: How?... It was just... it was just a thing. I...I felt bad, and he was just there. (Buffy objectified Spike as well for sex and feelings)
XANDER: So you go out and bang the first body you can find? Dead or alive? (Spike, again objectification - just a thing, a body)
ANYA: Where do *you* get off judging *me*?
XANDER: When this is your solution to our problems; I hurt you, and you get me back. Very mature. (Spike, an object/victim of sublimation, same by Buffy)
XANDER: I'm not joking now. You let that evil, soulless thing touch you. You wanted me to feel something? Congratulations, it worked. I look at you - and I feel sick - 'cause you had sex with that. (reflects the same "inner demons" emotional state of Buffy's deep anger and disgust which she places onto Spike)
SPIKE: It was good enough for Buffy.. (resolution to first scene and the "tell them" - Spike finally does bring out the dirty secret and all hell breaks loose.
XANDER: I don't want to know this, I don't want to know any of this. (stalks off. Buffy shoots Spike a daggered look and goes too)
I have to go with the idea that all the horrible things that happen to Buffy and Spike all about Buffy's own issues - She has already been with a vampire, so that is not really the issue, it was, IMO, her experience with Angel/Angelus along with, I think, her stuborn insistence on the soul-no soul definition and separation for Angel vs Angelus. But ultimately I just think that it all comes down to Buffy being a very damaged young girl that still haunts her life. It is not because Spike is a vampire that she can't love him, she already loved Angel/Angelus, it cannot be the having of a soul or no soul - clearly the having of a soul makes absolutely no difference for being either good or evil, clearly Spike can love and has the capacity to understand "free will" and moral choices. This is a Buffy that has lived through the torture and self sacrifice Spike made for Dawn and Buffy when he is captured by Glory.
here is the scene from next episode:
Here is the scene from next episode – Xander, IMO, is seeing things only from his narrow perspective and of course we know the tragic ending of all these with Buffy and Spike in the attempted rape.
Riley will have his own shake up from his confortable "black/white" world view and hard choices to make with the capture of OZ.
BUFFY: You didn't want to know.XANDER: So you went to *him* instead?
BUFFY: Xander, what I do with my personal life is none of your business.
XANDER: It used to be.
BUFFY: It just happened, okay.
XANDER: Oh, like, "Say, you're evil. Get on me."?
BUFFY: (ticked) You fought side by side with him when I was gone. *You* let him take care of Dawn --
XANDER: But I never forgot what he really is. God, what were you thinking?
BUFFY: You're asking *me* that? Oh, 'cause your decision making skills have *really* sparkled lately.
XANDER: I'm not saying I didn't made mistakes. But last time I checked, slaughtering half of Europe wasn't one of 'em. He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped working? Would you still trust him with Dawn then?
BUFFY: It doesn't matter. I'm not seeing him anymore. It's over.
XANDER: Yeah. Lot of that going around.
(storms out
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Lie to Me - Buffy's statement of love is qualified:
Angel: Do you love me?
Buffy: What?
Angel: Do you?
She takes a moment to consider her answer.
Buffy: I love you. I don't know if I trust you.
They weren't talking about relationships, but about Buffy's depression. - They were talking about the fact that Buffy slept with Spike, too. Xander is uber pissed about that because he had constantly been taunting Spike that he could never touch Buffy, when in fact, Spike had already slept with her. Interesting that Xander is more ready to forgive Anya for sleeping with Spike that he is to forgive Buffy:
XANDER: I know why Anya... I understand, I do. But you... All those times I told Spike to get lost, that he didn't have a chance with a girl like you...
No doubt Xander is recalling these very stupid words a day or so after Buffy slept with Spike the first time. From Gone, Spike and Buffy are in the kitchen and Spike has his hands - well somewhere (and how does Xander miss that? Or does he?)
XANDER: Good Godfrey Cambridge, Spike! (Buffy shoves Spike off her) Still trying to mack on Buffy? Wake up already. Never gonna happen! Only a complete loser would ever hook up with you. Well, unless she's a simpleton like Harmony, or a, or a nut sack like Drusilla-
The others are fine with Spike - not exactly. Tara and Dawn are okay with him, but they weren't around when Spike was still acting as bad as possible. Giles doesn't find out for some time that Buffy slept with Spike and he was against Spike's love interest in her:
GILES: We are not your friends. We are not your way to Buffy. There is no way to Buffy. Clear out of here. And Spike, this thing ... get over it. (I was Made to Love You)
Willow is also not on board although its not clear which is more upsetting to her - the fact that Buffy slept with Spike or that Buffy didn't confide her secret. In Seeing Red:
WILLOW: (still shocked) How could she hide something like this from me?
TARA: I think she was afraid of the look you'd get on your face. (Willow staring at her) Kinda like the one you're wearing now.
WILLOW: Oh, no, I'm not ... I'm just trying to understand.
Willow says she isn't shocked or upset but she plainly is. Probably she would come around if she and Buffy had a heart to heart over lattes - and if Buffy wanted her to.
Giles could be really scary - that scene in the magic shop was one of the few times that Giles goes primal - Considering how hateful and protective he was in this scene, I wonder how the writers ever think that he would be civilized with Angel/Angelus - the person who really was responsible for all the emotional trauma that Buffy suffers from. Willow and Angel/Angelus are the primary people who caused great harm to Buffy, along with his own dogmatic CoW beliefs and indoctrination which he passed on to his slayer.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
BUFFY: You wanna tell 'em so badly? Go ahead. Know why? I tried to kill my friends, my sister, last week and guess how much they hate me? Zero. Zero much. So I'm thinking, sleeping with you... They'll deal.
Actually, she was right. Only Xander couldn't accept it, and I think the circumstances played a bigger role on why Xander took it badly -seeing as he was more level-headed when he thought she slept with him in S5. In Seeing Red, he apologized for being an ass, and in S7, he gradually comes to accept that Spike is so important to Buffy and trusts her judgment regarding him. It may take time, but he'll get there, especially that now he's over Buffy. Not like when she was dating Angel, Xander had feelings for her and they clouded his judgment.
As for Willow, she was shocked, and I can't blame her, all these years Buffy claimed she hated Spike and now suddenly Willow hears that Buffy is sleeping with him. Note that she's more upset with Buffy not telling her than the act itself. Even Xander states that it hurts that Buffy didn't trust him to tell him about Spike. I believe if Buffy did, the whole shock and objections would end really soon, her friends are capable of dealing with it if she gave them a chance.
Giles' reaction to Buffy sleeping with Spike is laughing, and his objections in S7 stemmed mostly from him being wary over the First controlling Spike and that Buffy's feelings for Spike will cloud her decisions.
Giles could be really scary - that scene in the magic shop was one of the few times that Giles goes primal - Considering how hateful and protective he was in this scene,
That scene was a result to what Spike had done to Buffy in Crush, he had chained her and threatened to kill her if she didn't admit that she loved him. I can't blame the Scoobies at all for hating Spike after this. They were more than justified in that scene in I Was Made To Love You.
Guest
And it was her fear of thier reactions that drove her behavior not necessarily thier reactions. That would've been fostered by the Scooby intervention when they saw Spike and the Buffybot.An intervention is not a normal or rational reaction to someone you love sleeping with someone you hate. You might take them aside and ask them what's going on but you don't run and tell and then stage a Intervention .Xander's obnoxious behavior didn't help matters either.
And Buffy should've been incredibly mad at Xander in her yard and point out all the damage Anya did over the years and how she had a much higher body count than Spike and human weren't a food source for her.While I liked Anya I always hated that Xander ignored her history (to the point of not letting her mention it at all) and acted like everything she did hadn't happened .
Both Anya and Spike were leashed against thier will, and Anya didn't necessarily change the status of her soul with the loss of her power center. She could've had a soul as a demon or not gotten one back as a human.
And slaymesoftly , you're free to take the plotbunny and run with it. I get interupted too much to put a story together without my train of thought being derailed .Blame my crazy mother , she's the one doing the interrupting.
I thought he handled it the best in Intervention. To the point where Buffy pointed out he should be the one sleeping with Spike. Lol
Frankly, I don't see the logic of these scene and the connection to this entire tragic "dirty secret" arc - Buffy was totally ashamed and loathed being with Spike why would she ever want to tell anyone about it - The only reason it all came out was because of the Trio Nerds. She has an emotional breakdown with Tara when the subject of Spike and her conduct is revealed. And it happens because she wants is desperately afraid that there is something that makes her less human after she was brought back to life.
XANDER: How did we get here?
BUFFY: Scenic route. Long drive.
XANDER: These past few weeks...
BUFFY: I know.
XANDER: I thought I hit bottom, but... It hurt. That you didn't trust me enough to tell me about Spike. It hurt.
BUFFY: I'm sorry. I should have told you.
XANDER: Maybe you would have. If I hadn't given you so many reasons to think I'd be an ass about it.
BUFFY: Guess we've all done a lot of things lately we're not proud of.
XANDER: I think I got you beat.
BUFFY: Wanna compare?
XANDER: Not so much. (beat) I don't know what I'd do... without you and Will.
BUFFY: Let's not find out. (they hug) I love you. You know that, right?
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I don't think Giles was civilized with Angel. In Amends, you can see how much he loathes him for Jenny's murder, he and Xander were the ones who couldn't forgive Angel easily. While Buffy and Willow are convinced that because Angel has a soul now, he shouldn't be blamed for what Angelus had done.
I also think the difference is that Buffy liked Angel, and Giles tried to hide his feelings for her sake. While with Spike, Buffy showed hate and disgust, so Giles didn't have to be bothered with being civil, he just did what Buffy wanted, demanding Spike to leave Buffy alone.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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