The Bloodshedverse :: Spuffy with Bite

Apr 09 2010 02:41 am #11nmcil

I think that all the fandom should read what is being done with this series. For me this was the kind of stuff that you expect to see on porn sites, porn magazines, explicit adult sex films - what this came across to me is sexual fantasy. The treatment, I have read on other boards, could be a homage to another classic comic book - If so, the writer who has based all of his cycle on classic comic books did not serve his readers or this "love of all lovers" well. In my opinion it is nothing but gratuitous sex. And for all the outrage that so many of the viewers expressed over the Season Six sexual relationship between Buffy and Spike, I can't help but feel that this is nothing but "Selective Morality" - this is all about Great and Beautiful passion and expressions of love because it is Buffy and Angel, if this had been Buffy and Spike, it would all have been Dirty Disgusting Sex by a young woman who is so depressed, out of her mind and punishing herself with Spike.

I think that is important, particularly for the Spuffy writers to have the current perspective on where the series is going. I really have never come into contact with Bangel Fans - but boy are they rude and condescending. I have read some very good commentary for shippers that support this relationship but mostly they seem so committed to Buffy-Angel True Love, that they don't even try to engage in a serious discussion.

I only just started posting at Whedonesque, and most of the commentary is very reasonable, some excellent, but the supporters of BAF are usually the members that come across and rude and jump to conclusions - I posted my opinion about all the sexual treatment and was pretty quickly shot down.

Thanks for starting a new thread - was thinking that we needed a second one -

I had planned on doing some good scans, but one I saw this issue I have no interest to posting anything like this on my sites. This artwork would have to be flagged as "adult only and high sexual content" at my flickr site.

It interesting, was thinking about this today and I realized that when the sex scenes that showed the stronger sexual acts were depicted, who were the characters that were shown as the sexual objects? It was all the female characters. Willow-Kennedy and the pierced tongue, Buffy allowing Spike to use her for his gratification in the balcony scene and the Double Meat Palace alley, again with the bondage, it was the woman who allows it to take place. Buffy going down on Spike in "Gone" - and the most disturbing scene of all, Buffy and murder in the dreamscape sequence of "Dead Things" - And I forgot all the Wild Sex in WTWTA. Talk about a male sexual pattern and perspective. Now we have what was described by the PR/Marketing reps as "sensitivity for their love and characters" - WTF would we be seeing if they were not being "sensitive?" They literally had Buffy taking it front, back and licking. I thought it was crass, totally overdone and sexually exploitive.

Season Six showed Buffy and Spike in many sexual encounters, but we never saw a sex scene that was not important to the story and theme - and the most explicit sexual scene, Buffy going down on Spike was treated as comedy but the theme of the episode was all about her psychological state of mind and the very, IMO, disturb heroine model. Before that the episode was about the emotional and psychological trauma that Buffy is living with and that she is imposing on her sexual gratification object. It was not used as gratuitous sex just because we want to see Bangelfest happen.

I have also read that this was "tantric" sex - and I can see the possible connection, but if that was the intent, it did not work, it was not treat at all as pertaining to that system, what I saw was a male perspective and sexual fantasy. Would love to read other opinions.

Thanks for posting the LJ link - I am eager to read some other POV's and exposition.

And what I really am finding offensive is how condescending some of the Bangels are - they are acting as if all the Spuffy supporters are being delusional or being happy for any little scrap of Spike toss out to them - what nerve.

What did I think was one of the most outrageous parts of this story - Giles referring to Buffy and Angel "they are the best of their kind" - Hello reality check the real vampire which this entire premise is based on is Angelus - It is not Angel/Twangel or whatever the hell this incarnation. ANGELUS, the cursed with a soul vampire - where is the logic and reality regarding this character?

DarkHorse, and I presume at the direction of Joss Whedon as he is the Executive Producer, have just about destroyed in respect that I had. I don't really care if their determination to make all the past viewers and current fans force Bangel down our throats - This is Joss Whedon's creative world. What I do find completely unacceptable is that the very story that they created is being treated as if it never happened or its was completely insignificant.

Reality check once again, while "the universe" was watching and waiting for Buffy and Angel, the cosmic couple new model, the old human/vamp/hero was burning up while all the power of his soul was ridding the world of the Uber Vamps and winning the war against The First. Buffy and all this new breed she created would all be dead right now if Spike had not been there.

Do the writers even get why so many fans and readers are so upset and offended with this new Buffyverse? Do they Bangel fans understand the dynamics of what was happening in the Buffy-Spike transformation arc - . But I can't really blame the Bangel supporters, except for the blockheads who refuse to even consider anything that does not support their position. The people I blame is the writers and Joss Whedon for always bringing Buffy back to Angel and turning her into an emotionally stunted and traumatized young woman, that even now is still tied into her teenage love. What about all this "the universe" is using her? This is the character that just had her Slayers killed at the directions of Twilight, that has made her life and the lives of all her loved ones and Slayers one huge nightmare - and now she is happily having cosmic sex with the very person that played a vital part in everything that has happened. I just can't believe that this is suppose to be a grand expression of love. And the ending panel is a total throw back to Buffy in her Sunnydale High School persona - the ending is depicted as if Buffy just woke up from an unplanned nap - I just don't get any of this - I just don't get what the writer's intent. Someone over at Whedonesque described this comic book season as little better than a cartoon - and with no disrespect for the cartoon genre, I am inclined to agree.

I have finally understood that the Buffyverse is now truly changed into a very different creative form - fans like myself, who don't read comic books or expect a more comprehensive story treatment are simply being left out of the fan base now.

As a great many people state over and over, you can't judge anything until you come to the ending of the story, but what I read in this issue comes across as total nonsense to me - I honestly felt like I was being ask to leave my logic at the front door before I enter.

This is really making it very difficult for me right now, I was just about to complete the Spuffy comic edition with Maryperk and now I feel like all my enthusiasm and love for Buffy, Spike and Spuffy has been run over by the DarkHorse and JW Monster. Thank GOD Supernatural is on tonight.

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.

Apr 09 2010 03:08 am #12Spikez_tart

Ami - LOL at twu love.

Okay - I can't look at the damn thing because my computer's in a snit and I know I'll regret it. If Angel and Buffy are doing the deed isn't Angel supposed to turn into Angelus and go all evil and blood sucking. If he did that might give me hope for this stupid comic book after all.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 09 2010 03:19 am #13Niori

Don't do it Spikez_tart! Save yourself the pain! lol
Apparently the curse isn't an issue, but no one knows why. Apparently they thought it more important to do an issue of (bad) porn instead of explain why the hell one of their main characters is acting the way he is, and as many people pointed out, way out of character as to what we've seen on the show (as long as Conner is in the world, there is no way in hell that Angel would do anything to jeprodize it, even screw Buffy).

~ Niori ~

Apr 09 2010 03:41 am #14nmcil

I speculate that Andrew and Warren or The military are going to play a big part in this - Warren in an earlier issue talks about working on Andrew, or someone else, regarding the Gods in the Field from, I think it was "Storyteller" when the Nerds are shown in the Elysian fields - This is what I saw in the ending panels and that looks like Andrew's head as the scupture. The statue that was shown in the Watchers Council seemed like a play on Greek and Roman sculpture of the God or Heroic style.

Apr 09 2010 03:42 am #15Spikez_tart

Oh man. That bums me totally. Maybe Spike could turn bad again.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 09 2010 04:43 am #16Scarlet Ibis

"If Angel and Buffy are doing the deed isn't Angel supposed to turn into Angelus and go all evil and blood sucking"

Nah--the one time it happened, it was under special circumstances, and as Wesley pointed out in s5, there was a 99.99% chance of it never happening again.

But I agree that even so, Angel wouldn't chance it with Buffy either way, even if Connor was dead. He believes in the world, and that it's not only worth saving, but worth protecting.

<--hates how they are just ruining Angel completely and utterly.

And I HATE that they showed a picture of Spike with "Soon to come"--no--no soon! Leave Spike the hell out of it!!

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 09 2010 04:48 am #17Niori

Yeah, but they're finally reunited and it's destinythey'll be together forever and all that other crap he's spouting, so that does sound like it should be conclusive to true happiness. I could be wrong of coruse, because I also thought that Angel would have had a moment of perfect happiness when he first held his baby son (his face screamed perfect happiness).
And yeah, I'm with Scarlet- they've completely and utterly ruined Angel.

~ Niori ~

Apr 09 2010 06:45 am #18Scarlet Ibis

Connor was imperfect happiness because Darla had to kill herself to save him. I think he was too anguished and then surprised to be happy, and then he sees Holtz which reminds him of what he had been...too much going on.

And even if it was perfect happiness, why should he lose his soul? It's not as if anything else is making sense :p

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 09 2010 06:52 am #19nmcil

Nice to see you around again Scarlet Ibis

Apr 09 2010 07:02 am #20coalitiongirl

Judging from "Awakening," it seems to me that the moment of perfect happiness is borne from both the perfection of the moment (all Angel's issues are resolved) and the actual, technical "happy."

Of course, that also retcons the original moment in "Surprise," since I believe that Bangel were about to part for a long time, so there shouldn't have been total happiness... But I think that's just Joss Jossing himself. (Also, this is the only episode I haven't seen in its entirety more than once because I actually can't tolerate watching that much Bangel, so I might be making a mistake here about that going away bit.)

Apr 09 2010 07:43 am #21coalitiongirl

Heehee...I just stumbled upon THIS and it made me laugh, considering what our own 34 has become. :D

Apr 09 2010 08:09 am #22nmcil

I just read this issue again - and I swear this must be an in-house joke because this does not make an sense at all - I can't even begin to speculate on what is coming next - The Universe chose Angel a souled vampire, expect that the true vampire form is Angelus. Angel is no longer a true vampire as required by "the universe" who has been wanting to create the Slayer Vampire Mate model. Never mind that "the universe" had no hand in creating Slayers - that was a man-made deal. You know, I always wanted one of the best of the FF writers to take up this theme of Slayers and Mates - I always that it would be vampires that were able to control their demons that would make the logical slayer mates.

"A new evolution" question for the writers, is this even a correct way to use the word ? You don't make a new evolution, do you? Evolution is a process it is not a product.

Apr 09 2010 08:32 am #23Ami

LOL CG.That made me laugh hard. nmcil, don't make yourself crazy trying to figure this out, it makes no sense IMO. I don't think Joss is great at world building, it all seems to fall apart, and here he's trying to build a new world,new mythology ..god knows what. This story is full of plot holes, I think that's why they had all the PrOn. so people would be distracted and not follow the convoluted crap. It's like they sat around thinking what can we put in here so the readers don't think too hard on this, and someone said Bangel POrn! *ooh shiny PrOn*, it'll keep em busy looking at the pictures, and not paying attention to the story. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it, cause honestly it doesn't make much sense to me. Oh well...:shrug: Let's face it , our BtVS is over...this is the Brave New Buffy. And it pisses me off. :grr:

Apr 09 2010 04:40 pm #24ladycat713

Guest

They should've had the writer who wrote Fredless on Angel in to tell them how to deal with Bangel. They're the one who wrote the whole Cordy and Wesley mock how childish and high school the whole thing was.

Angel and Buffy are by no means the best of anything. Angel not only didn't choose to get his soul he's really done nothing to actively keep it. Buffy may be a good Slayer but I think that actively contributing to the deliquency of no telling how many minors by teaching that might makes right and that by being stronger than others means you don't have to have a moral code keeps her from being the best.

Was Giles high when he said this? Does he think that Spike's still dead or is he honked off because Spike completely blew all his suppossed knowledge about vampires out of the water?

The Bangel is coming off as badly written porn. At this point none of us would be surprised if Angel had showed up at Buffy's door wearing a plumber's outfit and told her he was here to fix her pipes.

Apr 09 2010 04:47 pm #25ladycat713

Guest

For a luagh about the ridiculaousness of it go here

http://beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/133230.html?view=2559342

Apr 09 2010 08:09 pm #26nmcil

I've been thinking about this, trying to make a logical connection, and reading a simple, very short post, it now is starting to make sense - from the ending of the last issue to the ending of this one and the title of the coming issue and if I my speculation is right, the Centaur Greek and Roman mythic connection.

Tantric Sex - Buffy becoming a Goddess, the new evolution, the spiritual next ladder step of metaphysics, and the potentially insane Angel - Now the real question is if this becomes an "Alice Through the Looking Glass" conversion world.  Will we have a treatment that follows the philosophy behind "Tantric Sex" and Buffy plays the role of Chiron to a temporary ill Angel, or Chiron to herself.   Buffy taking on the role of self-healer would be the resolution that I have wanted for a very long time - Buffy as healer to Angel would also fit the philosophical system and allow for yet another return of Angel as a viable character. However, how many times can Angel be cleansed and not become a character open to ridicule, so Angel will probably become in changed entity after this. But, and this is the Big Question, will Joss Whedon distort the underlying power of change and balance of the Tantric philosophy? or will we have a combination and the meeting of East and West - with Buffy Goddess/Self-Healer/ and the Chiron-Prometheus-Heracles myth.

If this is Joss Whedon's revisit of the unfinished story of Buffy-Angel Love Unstoppable and Immortal it also makes perfect sense - because he can now either bring his philosophy behind the use of this teenage innocent Buffy, which if I am correct he has never given any serious and in depth explanation for. If I am wrong about this point, PLEASE someone correct me. The only thing that I know of regarding his answer to the question is that he did not consider that the sexual consummation and their love relationship as a bad thing - that Buffy and Angel did not do anything wrong.   If you take the do all, accept everything, cleanse and rid yourself of the negative concepts of sex and love, this very different world view of the history of the Western World separation of the sexual force and the corruption from the religious interpretation, than it would indeed validate Buffy-Angel Forever. It would go with his statements about people being judgmental and having a narrow field of vision.

It will be extremely interesting to see if the Tantric Sex treatment will come into play in his resolution of this season. A great many of the elements for a combination of both systems are in the tale of this season. But what we are seeing, unless it is all smoke and mirrors and red herrings, is a conversion of what the expected transformation of Tantric Sexual philosophy. Having Dawn once again reference the Centaurette and seeing the severed head of what appears to be the severed head of Andrew, another of the characters that has been used with symbols of sacrifice and heroic classic super hero stories.   Plus Warren again brings in the reference to the Nerds and their "we will be as Gods" (paraphrase).

What I don't like about this, is how the use of comic book format and genre was used in the treatment - To me it has been very confusing and not coming from the Comic Book readership I would have much preferred a more traditional literary form.

Of course if I am totally wrong about what might be the underlying major themes than I am back to WTF -

If you visit other LJ that are discussing the comic book season, I wondered if bringing up a discussion on the potential connection to Tantric Sex theory and the Chiron-Prometheus -Heracles would be of interest to other readers. This is the only thing that I can make to work with what we have been presented thus far and with the history of Buffy, Angel and the re-visitation and unfinished story that Joss Whedon spoke to, I believe it was in the "Chosen" commentary.

A Buffy heals an insane Angel or a sick world - or we could go the implications of Black Kali let loose upon the world with a New Big Bad on a global scale or this Omniverse that Giles referenced - an inter-dimensional world. Whatever the hell does happened, If the theme of moral relativism as applied via Twangel is not seriously addressed than this all, IMO, can easily fall into the category of simple entertainment - the kind of story or film that we watch and enjoy for the moment, but that once you are finished with the book or step out of the theater, it no longer has any importance. Which would be such a pity, as the TV series had such a powerful connection that we are still interested in the Buffyverse.

Personally, I HATE the idea of Buffy being still connected with Angel/Angelus and the Idea that comes out of Giles' mouth that Angel is the best of his kind makes me want to puke - That Angel was converted from the completely evil bastard that was Angelus, that life brought him to the Gypsy tribe and his curse for all that evil is being turned into a reward feels so wrong to me - everything about that potential treatment and resolution is so wrong.   Guess I am in that camp of narrow minded judge mental people, because I really hate that scenario. The philosophy behind Tantric Sex if profound but the twisting and pulling that we have to apply to Angel/Angelus and his curse is something that I would have a very hard times accepting.

DarkHorse and Joss Whedon should seriously considered how this will effect their total fan base - I have already cut down what I spend with this issue and if they are really going to put the mantle of "Prime Series Couple" on Bangel, that is something that I have absolutely no interest in.

Apr 10 2010 12:28 am #27SpaceLord

Guest

People please stop buying this POS so that it can die and be buried and we will never mention it again.

I have not watched the series for a while just reading some fanfic and I can't remember the series being as stupid as the comic is, I can't even bother reading it that much just skimming through it (thank god I didn't pay for it :)).

I'm sure that there are many good comics out there but I'm rapidly losing hope in finding any, at the moment I find the best characters and stories to be found in either video games (rpg) or books. Now I'm just hoping that they will remove Spike and Faith from this shit and give them their own comics written by people who aren't hired writers from soaps.

It seems to be this way whenever things end up in comics just bigger and badder all the time, powers growing out of control making characters boring as hell.

Now if you want to read something better pick up "The Last Wish" by Andrzej Sapkowski it's a great book with a new take on a lot of our classical mythology you might even find a vamp story in there that is interesting in comparison to the Buffyverse.

Apr 10 2010 01:26 am #28Ami

That's what I keep saying SpaceLord...stop buying! I haven't bought one in more than 1 yr. I read other ways. LOL And I'm about to stop, cause it's beyond stupid and ridiculous already, and it's just gonna get worse.If everyone who isn't a Bangel would stop buying, their pitiful comic would plummet down a steep cliff. And we wouldn't be getting S9.(oh man, 3 more yrs of torture) I'm not a comics reader, was reading this cause it's Buffy. I guess right now I just wanna see how it ends to quote Spike. :) There's no way I'm gonna do S9. I'm not putting myself thru this torture again.

Everyone who bought this comic should return it to DH with a note attached saying.."If I wanted bad porn, I'd watch redtube,cause at least that's free." :P

Apr 10 2010 02:12 am #29nmcil

I have made the decision to stop spending money on these - I always bought both covers, even occasionally an extra Jo Chen, not anymore - I will buy one copy and that is it - and this is only because more than anything I am very interested to see what Joss Whedon concludes this - I want to see if he has the nerve to make his Angel/Angelus vampire hero into a really great force of evil, or if he will once again get his "get out of jail free card."

I am not really interested anymore about these characters, I have no emotional connect now, outside of Spike, whose character is currently being trashed over at IDW. I feel that going over to the comic book format and this over-board treatment is not something that I find at all satisfying. I want all the emotional power and use of language and all those wonderful actors. These comic books just are not giving me that - how could they. The sensibilities with some of these writers is so very different. Just because Brad Meltzer loves comic books and has all that history with the genre, who does he feel that the general readership would enjoy or even begin to understand all the homage and references?

Apr 10 2010 03:46 am #30Ami

Another Brad Meltzer interview, and this one will make y'all go WTF?? Cause we're supposed to take this issue SERIOUSLY :lol: I was LMAO reading....

---> www.comicbookresources.com/

Do these people live under a rock, or do they just surround themselves with people who kiss their ass and never question them? And obviously they never read anything that criticizes their precious comic.:shake:

Apr 10 2010 04:25 am #31Niori

Honestly Nmcil, why even buy one when, as Coalitiongirl's link showed, someone always puts them up online? It's the only reason I even check them out, because I refuse to help fund any of this crap.

You know what, it kind of reminds me of those really bad fanfiction writers who always hold tight to the 'omg, this is gr8!' reviews and ingore the much more plentiful 'this is crap' reviews, and then deletes them. I have yet to talk to anyone that saw this issue and thought, 'man, that was sexy'. No, it was childishly drawn and creepy. And a complete issue that was pretty much an excuse for Buffy and Angel to screw it eachother and in the most ridiclous ways possible? Yeah, I don't think I could take that seriously no matter who the couple was. Don't get me wrong- I love my sex scenes, but an entire issue is going over bored. It's like Where the Wild Things are in season 4, except I even perfer that to the comics, which I never thought would EVER be possible with Riley involved. At least it didn't look like childern, and wasn't so far fetched as flying sex.

God, reading that paragraph over really made me go 'wtf' all over again. Flying sex in BTVS...oh how far this has gotten off track from the show we love. Can you imagine if they had tried to pull this on tv?

~ Niori ~

Apr 10 2010 05:40 am #32Ami

LOL..The comics have accomplished the impossible, they actually have us saying we prefer ANY sex scene that has Riley in it. Something like you, Niori, that I thought I'd never say. But at least they looked like adults. This issue came close in a couple of panels to child porn.*squick*

The TV series is dead, this is the New Buffy...cause no way in hell would any of this have made it to TV. Can you picture...Centaur!Dawn, Doll!Dawn, Macha!Dawn,stolen North Korean subs,bank robbing,a castle in Scotland, Vampire Hello Kitty dolls,Xander living with Drac for 1 year,Warren never being dead and walking around skinless and pantless,Willow doing it with a snake Demon, Buffy flying...need I go on? It's ridiculous and Joss saying this was his vision for S8 is crap.Never mind the flying, endless Blight PrOn. This was basically an issue to highlight Porn cause they could, and that's it. Fail,fail Joss...epic fail! And still the sound of that zipper in "Smashed" was sexier than all the Kama Sutra positions in this.:D

And the people at DH saying with a straight face that we have to take this seriously and the flying child Porn was romantic and sexy is really, really disgusting and pathetic. They just listen to the pro Bangel folks who just WUVVED this issue and that's it. And never mind the ridiculous story that is being told about the Universe and Balance and Destiny. And the major retcon that's gonna take place.:wah:

Apr 10 2010 05:45 am #33nmcil

I agree, and if I can find an online site that has the full comic book posted, I will go that way. I really hate adding my money to the support of this project. Even with my twist and turns to apply the Tantric Sex- Centaur connection, it all comes across is pretty silly stuff. Who would ever have imagined seeing Buffy and Angel screwing each other front, back and inbetween. To me it all come over as gratuitous sex and the fulfillment of sexual fantasy. Getting the feeling that most of the woman, if they did not hate it, were luke warm - Most of the Bangellettes are loving it as are most of the younger men. And while all the cosmic sex does make sense if the writers and Joss Whedon are going with that potential treatment, which going by all those images, I am fairly certain that it will be applied. However, I think it will be converted to create havoc and destruction instead of the expectation of the balance and transformation into higher levels of understanding. Even the preggers Buffy is starting to seem like it could happen. It seems like Giles left his logic at the front door or that he is being played bigtime.

Apr 10 2010 06:16 am #34Ami

If Buffy ends up preggers, I think they should name the baby Renesmee Glowhypnol Summers. :P

Lord, I don't wanna think about it, so I must joke. :sigh: And really Joss, haven't you done the mystical, destined, world destroying baby already? Jasmine? Connor? Oh right...Connor doesn't matter or exist in this new Buffy world.I forgot. My bad. :P

Apr 10 2010 06:24 am #35Niori

Another thing that I noticed when I looked over it (yes, I once again follwed the damn link that Coalitiongirl put up and looked at the issue- I hate myself sometimes), was that, in some of the sex panels, you couldn't tell what the hell was what. It looked like black squiggly lines on beige, and I actually had to look at the panel before to figure out what the hell it was supposed to be. I think that it was one of them kissing a chest or something, but I'm still not sure. I mean, how am I supposed to find something sexy if I can't even tell what they're doing?

Renesmee Glowhypnol Summers? Epic win Ami, epic win. And reading what you put up in the let's list what's happened- I am wft all over again. Putting it all together, I cannot believe it has come to this. lol

Oh, and this is supposed to be all tantric sex right? Is that what they're saying? Because, from what little I know, isn't the fact that having it here is DESTROYING the WORLD against the phiolsophy?

~ Niori ~

Apr 10 2010 06:31 am #36BandS

I deleted previous posting for my own reasons.

Bottom line--I am not a avid fan of DB or Joss of the now. I loved Joss bringing us these characters, but the follow through was always more of a joint effort than only his.

These comics are just a piss poor job of giving us Bangel sex they couldn't have on television. I'm disgusted because the way they draw Buffy she looks like she's 12 while he looks like he's a grown man. The funny part is? Dawn looks older! So not sure if I will follow these comics any longer...except 'what's up with changing the Slayer history and even adding a destiny between Buffy and Angel???????' I don't know but after reading that comic to reading Spuffy fiction I had a hard time not picturing the horror of that comic in my head! There are so many disgusted words I could come up with for these writers in this comic...God I miss Fury and the actors/actresses who played our fave characters! They made them more real than this.

Apr 10 2010 06:02 pm #37nmcil

Oh, and this is supposed to be all tantric sex right? Is that what they're saying? Because, from what little I know, isn't the fact that having it here is DESTROYING the WORLD against the phiolsophy?

A total conversion - when I saw that Slayer with the third eye it made me think of Black Kali right away -

Apr 10 2010 06:38 pm #38nmcil

On page eleven you get to find a way to represent those bigger ideas visually and call back to the bat predator/prey relationship. Did you play around to find what the best imagery was to tie the ideas together?

You know, there's a part of me that looks at this page and thinks, "Is it too on the nose? To have a vampire bat and another blood-sucking animal?" But as I wrote it in the script, that's how nature actually works. The scene came from this story from a while back that said vampire bats in Texas eat lots of mosquitos, but if they eat all the mosquitos then all the frogs would die. If you take away the mosquitos, you'll get the dead frogs, and the entire food chain gets messed up. That's where this idea came from, and in the first draft of the script, the entire story about the frogs was there, and it just felt like this horrible Animal Planet moment. When I saw Georges artwork, I just said, "That's unnecessary. It's far too much overkill to explain it, and we get it." So I'm happy with how it came out, and we're not trying to be clever in terms of "oh, here's something that we made up to illustrate our point." It's something that came out of the animal kingdom that did it for us.
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So - are we going to get something that is address the political and social conditions with the vampire sucking metaphor? I can see that - except it will be a strange twist/pull if it connects with the Tantric Sex - and unless I am totally batty, that is what we were being shown. What do you think? look at the horizontal panel with the what looks like a cheetah at the end - that panel just seems to point to Tantric Sex - but maybe I am reading too much into it, giving the writer and the artist my own Eye Filter. But it does make sense to me as a conversion of a system that would give the practitioners balance and a healed a developed new way of seeing their own powers and the world view.

But I have always interpreted this series from the perspective of metaphor and social dynamics - That line about going into a dark room - is he for real? and how do you talk about the beauty and still put that kind of "we have to hide in the dark" twist on it?

I just hate how DarkHorse PR/Marketing reps have determined that this is all going to be about Star Crossed Lovers - that would be fine if all the dark and complex themes that were a vital part of the story had not happened. If Jenny Calendar had not had her neck snapped by Angel/Angelus or if Buffy had not tried to feed Faith to Angel - of if Giles had not been tortured by this same evil dual faced character. The more this goes on the more the whole separation of Angel from Angelus makes me totally pissed off. It was nonsense then and it is even more now. Has anybody given a minute of thought to what Twangel has done throughout this comic book season?

Apr 12 2010 06:17 pm #39coalitiongirl

Georges Jeanty Q & A.

Apr 12 2010 09:01 pm #40SpaceLord

Guest

Hmm I had a good laugh at the sex scenes though, I thought it was like something from Austin Powers. If you have seen the first movie there is a scene in which Ausin and Elisabeth Hurleys character are naked but constantly have something in front of them covering them up I got the same vibe from this issue, the best part was when Buffy got it from behind by Angel while flying up into space and she had her hands covering her titties I mean wtf is she afraid that some alien is going to get a look at those but not caring that she is being banged from behind and is totally naked. It's just all around idiots doing this comics, if you are gonna do it just fuckin do it right and put on a Explicit content sticker cause this shit just make you wanna laugh but then the whole comic has gone down hill since Buffy started flying (it was pretty bad before but that just pushed it over the edge)

Apr 12 2010 11:35 pm #41S

Guest

when Buffy got it from behind by Angel while flying up into space and she had her hands covering her titties

Ditto. The fact that their bodies (particularly Angel's) are drawn in the most bizarre manner of human form, realistically speaking, that isn't where her hands would be.

But of course, the entire thing was as far removed from any aspect of reality as humanly possible.

Apr 13 2010 07:25 pm #42coalitiongirl

Wow. This annoyed me at first, but I've since come to terms with it.

*********
23. bamph: "Willow says that Buffy's truest loves are vampires and we get a shot of Angel in the foreground and Spike sort of behind him. First of all, how accurate are Willow's conclusions since Buffy's feelings for Spike are vague and a great source of debate still in fandom as far as it being romantic love and on equal & the same terms, the same kind of love as for Angel? Especially with things like in issue 3 with Buffy leaning more to Angel than Spike and such. Secondly, should we read anything into your art showing Angel in the foreground versus Spike more behind Angel?"

Georges: "I think you could read that in order of affection. I think Angel would be in front and Spike would be slightly behind to show their order in Buffy's heart. Spike knows that Buffy doesn't love him the way she loves Angel, he all but said it in Season 7 “Chosen”, I also think that he's happy just to be in some sort of pecking order for her affections. Haven't you ever liked someone who was either out of your league or didn't like you back as much? Any bit of affection they gave you would speak volumes. I had a similar situation in my youth where I was so into this girl and she was nice and all, but she never returned the affection, and it wasn't that she didn't like me she just never liked me in a romantic way. Then one day we all were at a class field trip to a fair and said girl held my hand when we rode the swings together. I was over the moon! There have been many highs in my life emotionally, but I gotta tell ya, that time on the swing, with that girl holding my hand, has yet to burn itself out of my memory. Maybe that's what Spike holds on to?"

*******************

Maybe I'm just biased (of course I am!) but I can't even come close to comparing the relationship between Spuffy in S7 and Bangel in S3- the first seems so much deeper and more involved AND mature than the second. So I reminded myself that Jeanty doesn't write the comics- he probably hasn't even SEEN most of the show- and he might very well know nothing about it or the Buffy relationships (I highly doubt he's seen much of the earlier seasons, anyway, so he's basing his view of Bangel on years and years of media hype and hearsay, most likely).

Tl;dr? Joss is writing the new comics. Has Jeanty drawn them yet? Is he familiar with the story? Well, he doesn't even know the title of the final arc yet. He has *a* script. And Joss Whedon, as displeased as I am with him right now, is aware that A, the Spuffy connection is far from a sham and B, from a marketing perspective, we have the bigger presence online. (And if he ever agreed with Jeanty, he'd probably lose a lot of fans- if he hasn't already.) This might seem meaningless in terms of the story, but is this about the story or about marketing? What do you think?

Apr 13 2010 08:26 pm #43Scarlet Ibis

""I think you could read that in order of affection. I think Angel would be in front and Spike would be slightly behind to show their order in Buffy's heart."

That's how all of the photos of them are drawn--with Spike bringing up the rear or as an after thought (like in the threesome fantasy--she's in Angel's arms, and grabbing Spike like she just remembered he was there).

"Maybe I'm just biased (of course I am!) but I can't even come close to comparing the relationship between Spuffy in S7 and Bangel in S3-"

Agreed. This is why I don't get the shipper wars--they didn't happen simultaneously (like oh say Dawson, Joey and Pacey or more recently, Jack, Kate and Sawyer), and involved two completely different versions of Buffy--she wasn't the same person. Why is there even an attempt at a comparison at these two very different points in her life? It's like apples and kiwis.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 13 2010 08:29 pm #44nmcil

I think that Jeanty's perception, if they reflect the creative insiders POV and combined with things that SA implies and out right states is very important. This idea that Spike waiting for "love crumbs" and being satisfied just to have the privilege of basking in the effulgence of Buffy and her love emasculates the Spike character and turns him into William. In fact, not even William was able to live as a "crumb recipient," this is the very thing that sends him into the arms of Drusilla, this total rejection of being the weak man that is William. Spike spends almost the entire season six doing just the opposite, fighting to become the man/vampire that will replace Angel/Angelus and Riley. The character that I recognize in the TV era, if Buffy in this S8 time-line declares that Angel is the person that she loves above all others would never accept status as , in Jeanty's idea of the cabin vacation go to guy. To suggest that being in a relationship when you know that you are nothing but the consolation prize would be nothing but heart ache and emotionally dying one day at a time - it's been many years since I saw Jules and Jim but Jeanty's concept brings to mind what this "crumb love" might look like. Here is a wonderful music reference: The song "Let There Be Music" by Prefab Sprout refers to the film in the lines "There shall be music, music will be..., and if cupid's bow, strikes you low, hey Jules and Jim, I wrote the hymn to ectasy." and does it fit perfectly with what we see happening in this Sexual encounter of the Cosmic Kind. If you have not seen this great classic French Film I recommend - I plan on renting it again now that it has been brought to mind.

The problem that all Spike fans and the supporters of a meaningful love between Buffy and Spike with the S8 presentation to date is that it seems like the truly great story and drama of their journey together was insignificant - that the grand story of how they change and restore the life force of one another is and was not a fundamental part of the TV era and the history of Buffy and the Buffyverse.

Frankly I think that by this time the majority of the Spuffy supporters have reached the point of "Get It Done - make your definitive statement by Joss Whedon about Buffy-Angel, if Angel is the be all and end all of her existence, just say it plain and simple. Spuffy fans have the same heart and spirit as Spike/William, we don't want or need to live for "love crumbs" from Joss Whedon or DarkHorse, we are not weak nor will we bask in the radiance of Buffy's second hand love. if Joss Whedon with his current vision choose to relegate this splendid transformation journey of Spke and Buffy, so be it - but we know the quality of Spike, and it is grand and powerful.

With regards to the drawings and why they may seem so strange - I need only go back to our discussion of WTWTA - Jeanty has chosen to disregard the size differences in his drawings - the only image that even comes close to showing the real size of the characters is the first one shown. All the others have serious distortions with Buffy depicted as equal or some even larger than Twangel when shown in full body - the worst being when he is taking her from behind and in the flying and leaving Earth - Buffy is actually shown as being larger than Twangel. Many of the facial close-ups are drawn very well, but most I don't work.

Apr 13 2010 09:47 pm #45SpaceLord

Guest

What is the guy gonna say to that question? "No!!! It's not like that at all!!!" I mean of course he's gonna say crap like that cause they've already alienated pretty much all the spuffy fans and anybody with good taste as far as story telling is concerned all they have now is the die hard bangel fans and people who actually believes this is an amazing story with superpowered Buffy and Angel.

I mean just in #34 Willow is spouting off some shite about yin and yang concerning Angel and Buffy, I mean how the fuck to they reach that conclusion? How is Angel the opposite of Buffy? They are both tight ass control freaks and both white hats. It's shit like this that I can't stand in fanfic and I sure as hell won't tolerate it in a professional story. I mean there are a lot of fanfic where the writer just bends the characters so that it will fit the story and that is a no no for me.

Shit is still shit even if you tell people it's chocolate :)

Apr 13 2010 09:54 pm #46coalitiongirl

The absurdity of it all inspired me to make THESE SCREENCAPS. Apparently, we really have become Spike, taking our Spuffy crumbs...and we're coming close to breaking point. :( (At least we don't need a robot- we've got fanfic! :D)

Apr 14 2010 04:13 am #47Spikez_tart

Assuming there are any Spangel fans reading this, what do you think about the whole Twuffy thing? Other than the gaggy they're glowy gods thing.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 14 2010 05:28 am #48Scarlet Ibis

<--hardcore Spangel here.

I still think it's gross and utterly stupid. Seriously, they are just ruining my second fave character (Angel), but on that same token...

I don't care. Aside from commenting if the mood strikes me, the comics don't concern me, and they aren't my canon.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 14 2010 06:30 am #49nmcil

NICE screencaps coalitiongirl - I been doing some graphics and think I will do a couple of my own. I'm so angry about the "love crumbs" right now - wish I did not have so many real life projects that I have to complete - the good thing is that I finally am about to finish my spuffy comic book style project.

Apr 14 2010 06:47 am #50Niori

First off, LOVED the screencaps Coalitiongirl. Secondly, I went and read the comments on the page, and when someone suggested it'd end in a threesome, I can totally see them doing that. They already had that dream sequence at first, and they're going on how both Angel and Spike are her truest loves, so I really can.
And wow, I never thought I'd say it, but good God I hope they don't. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a total perv who thinks the three of them together is hot, but in the realm of this comic, it's weird and creepy. I can't pinpoint why exactly, only that it's....not cool in the context. I mean, the that whole dream sequence at first amused the hell out of me, but that was before I realized the extent of how bad the story in these comics are.

~ Niori ~

Apr 14 2010 07:17 am #51coalitiongirl

Nmcil, I'd love to see what you do with the graphics! It isn't my forte, and I do wish that there was more comics mockery in comics/graphic form. :P

I'm primarily a Spuffy fan, but I do love Spangel and this is beginning to feel like a cop-out- they'll do anything deviant with Buffy, whether pairing her up with another girl (and I don't want to get into another Satsu conversation, but) for all the wrong reasons or now an episode of Buffy pr0n, but when it comes to the boys, all we've gotten over the years is Larry and Andrew's hero-worship. And I think that with all they've done, would it be so awful to give us a little Spangel? :D I hate what they've done with Angel (though I always did prefer him on his own show) and I hate how so many Bangel and anti-Angel Spuffy shippers have been taking it so seriously, Bangel fans because, well, they've been waiting since S3 and they've finally gotten something, so why look a gift horse in its mouth? And some anti-Angel Spuffy fans seem to assume that Buffy's being raped. I don't think that she's in control, but I don't think that he is, either...and I miss my Angel.

And I wish that they'd finally give Spangel a chance, because I will lose all respect for Buffy if there's Spuffy in S8. :(

Apr 14 2010 08:15 am #52Scarlet Ibis

And some anti-Angel Spuffy fans seem to assume that Buffy's being raped.

Yeah, that confused me as well...

The assumption is that neither have control, so...

The sex having is the least of their problems at that point.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 14 2010 05:49 pm #53bluebird2073318

Guest

What i'm thinking, is that the reason they chose Angel instead of Spike to be Twilight is that Angel tends to be the one that is more...corrupt-able then Spike. Think about it:

Angel was cursed with a soul.
Spike earned his soul.

Spike, UNDER THE CONTROL of the first, had killed those people. Angel, on the other hand, has had his soul for alot longer then Spike, and yet, he did somewhat of the same, except that he WASN'T UNDER CONTROL when he did it. In the ATS episode "Orpheus", we see a souled Angel drink from a dead corpse. Did he do anything to save the guy? Nope. He just snacked on him. Also in "Why We Fight", we see, again, a souled Angel turn one of them. Heck, he ever ran Evil Incorp. for a whole season!

I belive in this sense, that Angel is the more corrupt-able vamp then Spike ever was. I don't even think there was a reference to which soul Angel got cursed with. We all know what Liam was like in those flashbacks back in Season 2 of BVTS. A lousy lay-about who hated his father. I just don't see Angel, with the soul of Liam, feeling guilty for what he did as a vampire. I just don't buy it. Spike, yeah, i can see him being the same as he was as a human William and all.

It also begs the question of wether Angel did sign away the so called 'Sanshu'. There was definitely a lack of 'who will Shanshu/who will not' type of thing back in ATS. How can you sign away something, that may have not been yours in the first place? Doesn't mean that Angel isn't part of the apocalypse, far from it. Perhaps this is the apocalypse that the Scrolls were talking about? He was made human in ATF though, so there goes that theory *makes a note to reread ATS After The Fall again*.

Ok, so none of what i've said most likily didn't make ANY sense, but i hope at least someone knows what i mean. I'm just not that great at explaining what i'm trying to say. Either way, i'm sticking with this logic for the reason behind all of the Bangel cra...err stuff :-P

Apr 14 2010 07:07 pm #54SpaceLord

Guest

They didn't choose Angel cause of that, they chose him because he's the leading man. It's been made pretty clear that Buffy is number 1 hero, Angel number 2 and them comes the rest. I think someone asked who they thought was more heroic or something about Angel and Spike to some writers on IDW on a fanfest or such and they pretty much had to say that Angel is number 1 even when you to a list comparing the two and even if it would seem natural to a logical person that Spike is more heroic guy because he changed himself and got the soul for himself rather than be cursed with it and so on. So Angel will always be no 1 and Spike no 2 in the Angel comics. It won't change as long as Spike fans keeps buying Angel just cause Spike is in it and it won't change as long as Spike fans buy Buffy comics cause he might show up in them.

Apr 14 2010 08:28 pm #55ladycat713

Guest

I don't like Angel anywhere near Buffy (he acts better away from her) but if they are under some outer control then if she's being raped then so is he.

Angel has always been the more corruptable one.I remember in one story that said the Shanshu was about Angel because the wording said that the side the vampire who would shanshu was on would be uncertain and that there was never any doubt what side Spike was on.

Apr 15 2010 04:43 am #56Spikez_tart

Angel tends to be the one that is more...corrupt-able then Spike. - I like this theory bluebird. Angel can be bad even on a good day, like when he's locking a bunch of lawyers in with Darla and Dru, then turns around and sets them on fire. He even smokes a cigarette once when he's good Angel. A deep tell tale sign.

Scarlet - I liked Spangel okay, too, but it seems to me their time is past. Also, not getting the Angel offing a couple hundred girls and other sundry humans. That seems a little more than Angel, even at his worst, is capable of.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 15 2010 10:50 am #57Scarlet Ibis

Tart--didn't you know that theirs (Spike and Angel) is a forever love? :P

And Angel--you guys referring to the comics, right? That isn't in character to Angel.

I think there's a difference between being corrupted, and simply beig pushed to the edge.

I remember in one story that said the Shanshu was about Angel because the wording said that the side the vampire who would shanshu was on would be uncertain and that there was never any doubt what side Spike was on.

Well, hate to say it, but sometimes, what side you're fighting on, as we've seen on Angel, can be unclear. Angel and Co. stopped Jasmine, who was allegedly bringing about world piece with her pod people. Now, was that a help or a hindrance to man kind? Or in NFA, picking a fight with the Senior Partners. Spike was the first to volunteer to be apart of that. Was that too a help or a hindrance to mankind? I'm not saying one way or the other, but I do think that they all believed that they were serving the greater good. But if they were wrong, then there's no guarantee on which side of the apocalypse that they were fighting. Just some things to ponder :)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 16 2010 08:40 pm #58nmcil

It is all relative from "the eye of the beholder" - and "the greater good" - Scarlet Ibis you make a great point, every individual agenda can be twisted and seen as doing things that are required to achieve your goals. I guess the most used example in the general public is the "kill Hitler before he can take power."   With the knowledge of what his rise to power brings into the world most people would say yes to killing him. The contrast to that would be that the killing of a political leader from the "personal POV and individual agenda."   Again a classic example, the Mexican Revolution. Particularly in the current political dynamics and the historical empire dynamics of their time the political leaders of the Mexican underclass and the supporters of an independent nation free of its imperialistic overlords. Had the leaders of that struggle been killed the consequences would have been entirely different for all the Mexican peoples but particularly for anyone not of the ruling elite. Today all those leaders, depending on the individual political system and power position, would be labeled terrorists in complete contrast to what their supporters and fellow warriors would call leaders of the people's struggle for a better life and an independent sovereign nation.

Was Angel/Angelus working to rid the world of all the evil that they promote in the world, OR was he engaged in a personal vendetta - IMO, it was personal vendetta that is why he shuts the female companions and wives with the lawyers - counterpart to their taking away his human Darla and turning her back into a vampire.   Every viewer will take their own spin on Angel/Angelus.

Of all the characters of the Buffyverse and Angelverse, he is the most tragic of all - Angel is forever tied to his Angelus/Liam life. Angel/Angelus is like Amy caught in her hamster cage. No matter what Angel/Angelus has done in his Angel persona, he has never been able to escape his past.   He spins and spins and spins in that cage but he is still imprisoned there. Connor, the one, IMO, truly splendid gift and thing that comes into his life is immediately tied back to Angelus and his sins of that life; Holt like the Black Avenging Angel swoops right in and begins eating away at him. Angel/Angelus by the inter-interjection of Whistler is given the opportunity to salvage his life as the cursed/souled vampire, but once again all is lost because of his inability to fight his physical passions - he cannot take his connection with this very young woman only in spiritual form and spiritual love, he must have her in the physical form as well. That he knows it is not what he should be doing is clearly established in the series - he struggles mightily but Buffy will not leave him alone and at the end he does commit himself to loving her in a full expression of love. His life and sins of Angelus once again throw him right back into the pit of hell on Earth. And this goes on and on throughout his life in Sunnydale and in LA. I have for a very long time thought that Angel's only escape may be his final death - Unless his pattern is changed by Joss Whedon, it seems like he will perpetually be living as a prisoner - Angel is like the mythic symbol and character of Sisyphus or Atlas, eternally carrying his burden. Who knows, maybe he will find his Chrion in S8 who will release him from his thus far unbroken chain to Angelus/Liam.

Apr 16 2010 09:43 pm #59Scarlet Ibis

MO, it was personal vendetta that is why he shuts the female companions and wives with the lawyers

I didn't notice/see the wives/husbands of the lawyers in the cellar. It was to my understanding, or how I saw it, was that it was just the lawyers themselves downstairs.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 16 2010 11:38 pm #60nmcil

I will check again - thanks for the info -

Apr 17 2010 12:20 am #61nmcil

Nope - check and Holland's wife answered the door - the wine room was originally a bomb shelter - but you are right, I just assumed that because Holland's wife was there that some of the women were wives - they could be or not .

Angel's remarks, a repetition of what was said to him by Holland, I think plus the fact that he lost Darla to Dru's revamping her makes this about revenge. That is one great episode, Darla and Drusilla are really scary in this scene - all of actors did a great job. I'm glad that I looked at the episode again. This is one of my favorite season from the series.

Apr 17 2010 01:34 am #62Scarlet Ibis

Yeah, Holland was hosting the shindig. But Angel left the wife upstairs. I know he didn't give a piss about the lawyers (and I didn't blame him), but it would have been OoC to leave spouses and S.O.s in the basement, when they had nothing to do with it.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 17 2010 01:35 am #63Spikez_tart

Tart--didn't you know that theirs (Spike and Angel) is a forever love? - hee hee - how could I have forgotten that? Of course, seeing them bicker constantly and beat each other up reminds me of something. (Taps her finger on her head - could it be Spike and Buffy?)

Angel on the Amy wheel - okay if Spike can break out of the cycle of evil - why can't Angel? And, wasn't that what that stupid Buffy Xmas story with the First Evil was about? That its a sin to despair of divine forgiveness. Pass the continuity please.

Lawyers and wives - what episode was that? I guess Angel's thinking would be that the wife, benefitting financially from the evil, would be as bad as the lawyer.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 27 2010 11:11 pm #64coalitiongirl

Thread's been quiet for DAYS...

Anyway, I know that nobody's interested, but here's the Jo Chen cover for the Riley oneshot, with a synopsis!

Acclaimed Buffy television writer Jane Espenson (Buffy: Tales of the Vampires, Battlestar Galactica) is back with answers to one of the surprising twists she and Executive Producer Joss Whedon introduced in the hit story arc “Retreat!"

In the midst of the battle, Buffy’s former flame, the demon-fighting soldier Riley Finn, seemingly in league with Twilight, was revealed as a double agent working for the Slayer army. Now Espenson and artist Karl Moline (Fray, Willow) uncover the secrets of Riley’s recruitment by Buffy, his infiltration of Twilight’s inner circle, and what’s become of he and his superspy wife Sam. This essential one-shot delivers thrilling spy adventure and is filled with major revelations for the story of Buffy Season 8!

Image and more details HERE

Apr 27 2010 11:43 pm #65Niori

What does it say that I'd much rather read a Riley one-shot than the rest of season 8? Actually, I am fairly curious about what happened to Sam. I liked her.

~ Niori ~

Apr 28 2010 12:34 am #66ladycat713

Guest

I think it says that season 8 bites beyond all definition.

Since Riley pretty much blew in my opinion (I think it would have been better to have the Initative be an outright study on the nature of evil and comparing them to the Nazis) . one could be tempted to think they couldn't do anything to ruin him. I'm sure they'll find a way though.

Apr 28 2010 12:49 am #67Niori

Ladycat, I think ALL of us would have prefered that. The Initative itself was a much better villan than the stupid Frankenstein wannabe. And I'm pretty sure everyone made the connection anyway, especially since in ATS 'Why We Fight' (I think that's the name), they pretty much said that the old school Initative wanted to expirment on vampires the same way the nazis were.

~ Niori ~

Apr 28 2010 02:31 am #68Spikez_tart

I liked Adam. He had a handle on his shoulder. I can think of any number of guys who would be improved by having a handle.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Apr 28 2010 02:39 am #69Niori

Spikez_tart- when you mentioned the number of guys who could be improved with a handle- my mind immedietly flew to the Buffy bad guys, and Glory was first on the list. It had me laughing ten minutes striaght. I am SO tired...lol

~ Niori ~

Apr 28 2010 08:36 am #70nmcil

Thanks for posting the link for the Riley One Shot

It will be good to know what happened to Riley & Sam - hated both of them in "AYW"

This sounds like it will connect all the way back to the first cycle that Joss Whedon wrote - with the questions of just how Voll got so much info on Buffy and the Slayers and who his informant and close ally was.

Will be interesting to see how this is going to connect with the next issue. Like how Riley's face scar disappeared - maybe we will even get an explanation for that

Talk about dragging this all out - not until August. This is why I am really hating the comic book genre. And with this Riley One Shot, it just confirms, IMO, how much the PR Reps were giving out misinformation - It was specifically mentioned, pretty sure by Scott Allie, that Riley as a minor character was not going to be given much attention with the remainder of the season - so instead he is getting an entire issue.

Interesting that the last time we saw Riley and his perfect missus Buffy went into major "pathetic needy girl" mode -

Apr 28 2010 09:50 pm #71Caro Mio

I don't blame the characters for AYW. That was all Petrie inserting his writer bias in the story instead of serving the characters best. But I never disliked Riley in the first place.

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.

Apr 28 2010 10:14 pm #72coalitiongirl

Interesting point- though I think that Petrie's bias was very much in Spike's favor, and his intention was to make Riley the villain. I didn't like Sam[y Sue], and Riley was a bit of an a**hole in that episode, but I do love Riley in S4-5. I even love the Buffy/Riley relationship, specifically BECAUSE it was doomed from the start. (I don't ship it, of course. It just interests me.)

Apr 29 2010 12:11 am #73Jeleyne

Guest

B/R doomed from the start - do you really think so? I’m happy it was doomed because Riley got my last nerve before it was over, but if Spike hadn’t been around, I could see Buffy drifting into a permanent state of denial and doing something really stupid like marrying Riley. Her friends approved of him, he was human albeit not exactly the “normal” boy she’d been conditioned to think she wanted, and those two facts alone would be enough to convince her that any shortcomings in the relationship must be her fault. Buffy doesn’t stand up to peer pressure very well; all it took was one lecture from Xander to send her running after Riley’s helicopter.

Oddly enough, when Riley was first introduced in the series, I had the fleeting impression that he was going to be the next love interest for Willow. After about thirty seconds, I realized they intended him for Buffy, and my reaction went from “Hmm” to “Bleahhh...”

Apr 29 2010 12:17 am #74Niori

The thing about Riley, is they tried to damn hard to force you to like him in season four. They protrayed him as the Mr. Nice Guy, All American, and were like 'look how perfect he is!' when he was first introduced. It got really, really annoying, really, really fast. Besides, compared to two vampires? He's boring as heck.

~ Niori ~

Apr 29 2010 12:57 am #75coalitiongirl

Jeleyne, I also thought he'd be Willow's love interest at first. He didn't seem interested in Buffy at all until a few episodes later.

Basically, I subscribe to the idea that Buffy isn't cut out for normal. And Riley was normal, and that alone was enough to wear down their relationship- it was in tatters before the bitehouses. Buffy needs to be the "man" in her relationships, too (with the exception of Angel, but I think he was more of a father figure to her than anything. The girl has daddy issues. :P), which is something that Riley wouldn't have been able to handle long-term, since he seems more old-fashioned when it comes to relationships. Not to mentioned that he was the rebound to end all rebounds... But mostly, I think that there was a problem with their roles in the relationship which made it a failure- Riley needs someone who can count on him and depend on him, and Buffy needs to be independent and to stand on her own. And I echo what Niori said- Buffy can't handle boring, either. :D

Apr 29 2010 01:23 am #76coalitiongirl

The editor of the Angel comics speaks about Spike's story and characterization here, mostly reassuring us that they have deeper motives and reiterating her respect for Spike.

Apr 29 2010 01:37 am #77ladycat713

Guest

I wonder if they originally intended for Riley to be Willow's love interest and then changed direction when they decided to go "gay now" with Willow because they didn't pick Xander to be gay . Maybe they didn't want all of them to be dating guys or they wanted the girl on girl to appeal to fanboys (which I believe to be the reason behind Buffy's use of Satsu ) .

Riley wouldn've been a much better match with Willow given that she's Jewish and he's a Nazi type and that could cause major angst. Maybe they also back burnered showing the Initative as evil and came up with Adam when they decided against the possible angst and nature of evil (especially of those convinced that they aren't doing evil because they believe thier targets are beneath them).

It would've been excellant to have Willow struggle between her love for Riley and her horror at his believing in the rightness of the Initative .

Also it would've meant Riley wasn't such a snorefest . I wonder if this is the storyline that Marc Blucas thought he was getting into when he signed up for Buffy.

Then they could still have have Willow be bisexual by having her get involved with Tara (maybe after Tara finding her crying about Riley and Tara consoles her) slowly with Tara worrying that Willow is on the rebound and them building a strong relationship where Willow would never dream of messing with her mind.

Apr 29 2010 01:43 am #78Ami

Thanx for the link CG. Let's hope it's a good story for Spike cause right now it really is sucky. At least she says she respects Spike and considers him as much of a hero as Buffy and Angel. That's positive. *crosses fingers* Hopefully it'll be a good journey and not just some Spike is second banana to Angel and he'll never be good enough.

Apr 29 2010 03:26 am #79nmcil

I will be scanning the panels that I think are significant in the latest issue - It's a combination of Outstanding contrasted with Not particularly Good commentary from Connor on the Spike character. What it ends up reading like is that Willingham perhaps understood more how much Spike in his TV era characterization connected with the fans and still allowing his own creative take on Spike. I just don't think that Willingham has found a good way to present his vision of the character - he seems determined to use Spike as the comic relief, but it always falls totally flat - at least it does to me. I think this is the best issue of this story thus far. Illyria, for my money, has the best lines in the entire issue.

Speaking to the evil corporate blood sucker after profits when he is begging for mercy. An interesting issue which could suggest big changes for Gunn and new dynamics or tension within the AI Team. Great Gunn panel.

Illyria: AMAZING. You've steeped yourself in the depths of every evil endeavor you could imagine, and yet still believe you've access to benevolent deific intervention.

This is from the discussions going on at IDW that have surrounded the reception of Willingham's treatment of the Spike - I'm glad that the Spike fans have expressed their sentiments regarding how he has been portrayed in this IDW phase. I do not suggest that Willingham does not have the right to do his creation as he wants, he is the creative person that is the force behind this IDW cycle - and while he has every right to do his creative vision, I believe that the fans also have every right to expressed their opinions about the work.

EXCELLENT Blog from the editor of the current Angel storyline -

"Hi, there, folks. I wanted to take a minute and address some of the recent concerns that have been brought up in the forums regarding the new Angel monthly. Who am I? Well, I edit it. The post got a little wordy so I put it all up here:

http://squidygirl.blogspot.com/2010/04/spike-conundrum-or-what-hell-is-he.html

It probably won't answer every question you might have since we're unfolding a story and I can't give away plot points. But I want to assure everyone that we have all watched the show, we all love Spike, and his recent behavior (which we know is shocking and upsetting for some) will be explained shortly. I know it can be hard to wait through, but I promise: we are not ignoring you and we are going to show you what's happening and why.

Which brings me to Brian Lynch's upcoming Spike series. He's working away on it and we're soliciting it shortly. It's going to be pretty incredible. You're going to see some old and new faces, but most importantly, you're going to get to see Spike be the hero and champion we all know he is.

Hope this allays some fears. We're really trying to tell the best story possible."

-Mariah

Apr 29 2010 11:05 am #80Scarlet Ibis

I'm way behind, but--

" Interesting point- though I think that Petrie's bias was very much in Spike's favor, and his intention was to make Riley the villain."

I don't think that was Petrie's intent, cause Petrie needs a box of tissues even thinking about Riley...However, I agree with you in that, as the episode played out, that's certainly how it appears. The entire set up is fishy and REEKS of sabotage, Buffy's acting as if she's ready to fall into Riley's arms at the drop of a hat, Spike being last scene in that burnt out shell, that used to be his home, which was an excellent metaphor for him in general...

Unfortunately, a lot view the ep in a strictly "topical" view :/

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Apr 29 2010 04:35 pm #81coalitiongirl

Scott Allie tries to do the same thing as IDW. It doesn't come over very well.

So Angel isn't totally the guy behind the mask? I couldn't care less. I'm upset that Buffy slept with him when she DIDN'T know that.

And again, Allie misses the point.

HERE

From the Editor
Scott Allie, Editor
Accusations of Porn
Updated: 04/28/2010

"We’ve all had a few weeks to process Buffy the Vampire Slayer #34. I’m not gonna deny that there was a certain amount of … outrage. There were people who were surprised and taken aback simply by the level of sex and nudity in the comic, and I’m sorry we didn’t warn people enough. Please note there are no actual parts shown. Sure, it pushed the limits, but with no nipples, no genitals, I was surprised by the accusations of porn.

There were a lot of fans who objected on other grounds, including legions of Spike fans who were as unhappy to see these two together as the Angel fans were satisfied. The recent storyline has shown me a whole new level of intensity in Buffy fans, and in particular the so-called “shipping” faction. For those that don’t know what that word means, and I only barely do, “ship” is short for relationship, and has to do with fans fixated on one relationship over another, or over all others. “Ships” get adorable names, like Bangel and Spuffy, and the fans, or “shippers,” become identified as Bangels or Spuffys. Anyway, back on planet earth …

There were plenty of readers that just didn’t want to see Buffy sleeping with the guy in the mask, no matter who he was, because he was behind all this horror -- but hopefully next issue will make it more clear that that’s not exactly who Angel is. But for many different reasons, the reaction to Buffy #34 was strong, to say the least. It’s great to see such passion from the readers. I’m sorry we’re not exactly pleasing everyone, but we certainly seem to be keeping you interested. Buffy #35 will be out in a matter of days, and we’ll get to see what readers really think of this whole Twilight thing, with pretty much all those cards on the table.

Joss is juggling an increasingly crazy schedule as we head into the final arc. Film rewrites, massive directorial obligations … well, it wouldn’t be fun if it weren’t a challenge. Stay tuned --"

Scott

Apr 29 2010 06:00 pm #82coalitiongirl

...And another update from the IDW editor...

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=180433

"Hi, everyone.

I wish I could help allay some people's fears when it comes to Spike more specifically, but I really meant it when I said that it would give away everything. What I can say/hint: it is not just about exploring flaws and I know that the real concern is the OOC behavior. It will be explained and it's not just "we want to see a darker side of Spike". Promise.

As I said, in issue #35 you will start to see what you're looking for dealt with directly. There's a lot going on in the series right now and it can take some time for it to unfold/be acknowledged by the rest of the cast.

And FYI, issues #33 and #34 also set up a LOT of what's to come, and give you a few other big insights into things going on in the entire Angel 'verse. You'll start to see how some things fit together.

I know it can be tough to be told "wait and see", especially when we're talking about waiting a month between issues. But there are really big things in store for everyone, including Spike, and when his own series launches there will be even more. There is something Brian Lynch is going to tackle with the character that's never been dealt with before, and I think you're all going to want to see it.

Now back to editing. :}"

-Mariah

Apr 29 2010 08:35 pm #83ps

Guest

Mariah and Scott's statements are what is known as major damage control.

Buffy is a hero. Angel and Spike are champions. They can all be portrayed as flawed without going totally OOC. When Buffy is turned into a sperm depository to open the Twilight Zone, Angel is turned into an insane mass murderer and Spike is written as a joke I just can't find anything about the characters I'm interested in. The editors tell us to wait, wait, wait, the good stuff is coming. Just keep spending your money on the junk until the good stuff gets here. Well Scott, I'm not interested in watching Angel's deeds being whitewashed. Been there, done that, it's become a joke. Mariah, even dangling Brian Lynch in my face won't make me read about these characters anymore. Scott also stated in another interview that there were no plans for a Spike and Buffy cover. Pffft. Just something else to be disgusted about.

Scott should not have been surprised people saw this issue as porn, even Jeanty called it porn. And that's exactly what it was no matter how hard certain people try to twist it into being "true love 4 eva". For pete's sake, the issue was named Them F@#$#g, not Them making love.

Also noticed Mariah did some fudging in her blog. She said all the Angel writers had watched the series. Well, to me that means they watched Angel, not Buffy. I wish she'd said how many had watched Buffy, and not just Season 1-3.

Apr 29 2010 09:45 pm #84Ami

I agree with all of the above. They just want us to keep spending our money on this OTT OOC stuff. Hello...#34 is PORN Mr. Allie, and no amount of spinning and whitewashing is gonna change that fact. Otherwise it wouldn't have been called Them F@#$%g. *shakes head* I don't think anyone over at IDW has seen the later seasons of Buffy, and seen Spike's journey to hero and champion. I'm not buying those comics either, maybe I'll buy Brian Lynch's new Spike series. We'll see how he writes Spike, cause IDW is making me sick with their Spike characterization.

You're right CG...Allie just doesn't GET IT. Spuffies aren't upset that Buffy frakked Angel...we're upset cause he's been the villian all season long , has done horrible things and she just jumped into the frakkin without knowing any of this supposed "new" info we're gonna get now..which makes her pretty OOC and totally pathetic IMO. Now they're gonna come up with some lame explanation and it's all supposed to be all better. Whatever. And everything always boils down to shipping in their little minds. They really are pathetic.

I can't get away from this Space Boinking! nonsense. Last week I was at Disney, and I went on Mission:Space over in EPCOT, which is a space shuttle simulator ride...it's really cool, you feel like you're blasting off, there's G forces and it's pretty realistic. Anyway , after blastoff you see you're leaving Florida, then you see leaving Earth and then you're in space.And all I could think about was the damn Space Boinking! I was laughing throughout the whole friggin rideI was actually picturing Blight boinking around in space.My bf and cousin thought I was crazy, cause I just kept laffin.They don't read the comics so I had to explain what was going on and why I was LMAO on the ride. All they could say was "That's the crap that's going on in the comics? And you're actuallu reading that?" LOL. Yeah.. Space Boinking!That's some really great storytelling. ;p

Apr 29 2010 09:54 pm #85Niori

Okay, did Buffy's new powers include not needing to breathe? 'Cuz, space has no oxygen...as in, sex in space + inability to breathe= DEATH! Apparently those writing have forgotten the basics of human anatomy.
Yeah Ami, I got the same thing; I explained the comics so far to a friend who's new to Buffy (hasn't even watched season 7 yet) and he was al wtf. He made me repeat things because he couldn't quite process it. lol And since he is not at ALL involved with shipping, it just proves that the comics are just dumb. Period.
And you know what, IDW is screwing up, but at least they're willing to say that Spike is acting OOC. They're excusing it, but they are saying that they get why we're upset. Allie on the other hand, pretty much sounds like he's telling us that's he's right, everyone is acting perfectly in character and we should stop complaining and love it. Anyone else get that vibe?

~ Niori ~

Apr 29 2010 10:15 pm #86Ami

Oh yeah, Niori..I def get that vibe from Allie. We're all supposed to stop complaining and just love their comic, cause it's all great and everything makes sense. And whoever complains is dismissed as a silly Spuffy shipper or Spike lover.:wall: Allie always comes off as a condenscending douche to me. :shrug:

Apr 30 2010 02:43 am #87Jeleyne

Guest

I don’t think Allie understands why fans say it’s porn. Just being naked doesn’t make it porn, regardless of which body parts are or are not visible. Just having sex doesn’t make it porn. Sex without respect for the characters, sex with exploitation, coy little peep shows designed for the sole purpose of parting the fanboy from his funds - those are the things that make it porn, and not the good kind. To me, his remarks make it perfectly clear that he doesn't have a clue why the term is being used.

Apr 30 2010 03:29 am #88nmcil

Scott Aliie just does not get the connection, or he is just lying about everything, regarding the Bangel and Spuffy fans. Aside from a small minority of die hard Spuffy Love Fans, most Spuffy fans don't care that she is being reunited with Angel/Angelus, it is the circumstances of the entire Season Eight series that were created by DarkHorse that the readers and fans are objecting to. And all this "it will all make sense and be explained" How can it be explained except yet another "clean -up" of the Angel/Angelus character. What could possibly make Twangel into a "good guy" except that he is being influenced by other powers, or he had left his brain back in the LA realm and no longer has the intellectual capacity to take on any responsibility for his actions, or he has information from the future or another realm that tells him that all the destruction and devastation has happened and he must try to change it. If the last case is the model for his actions, how does that justify or even connect in the slightest with his "Let's find this power and what it all means" bull he is giving Buffy.

With so few issues left in the series, just how is this "great story and great explanations" going to be told with any depth?

If all this sex had been shown with the Buffy-Spike relationship it would have been called nothing but porn and sex as a means of Buffy's expression of emotional suicide - Just look at all the imagery that is used in "Dead Things" - "Normal Again" "Dead Things" and "As You Were" are all about Buffy's self mutilation and death when applied to Spike, the one male character that has given everything and taken everything for his love and devotion to her. When Buffy is apparently taken over by some third party entity, being used to serve its purpose, that sexual act is presented as Great Cosmic Love. It all a very strange conversion of love and the sexual expression of love. And if the writers can't understand why so many of their readers and the Buffyverse fans find it all so disturbing there is something very wrong in the creative world of the Buffyverse and Angelverse today.

I will be very interested in seeing just what the hell all this "great things are coming" explanation of the great TwangelCrapAthon will be.

May 01 2010 12:28 am #89Spikez_tart

Was the picture with the Angel-Buffy-Spike sandwich and the trains supposed to be Buffy's fantasy? Also, pretty sure that sex with two guys at once comes under the porn heading no matter what you show or not. None of us would EVER be interested in any sexy stuff around here. Sniff. :)

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

May 01 2010 03:14 am #90Niori

Yep- it's her fantasy from when she was in the dreamscape thing with Ethen Rayne, back in one of the first issues. Not a bad fantasy either, though it does still come off as sketchy here. Probably again with they look nothing like the real people. lol

~ Niori ~

May 01 2010 03:14 am #91nmcil

That is what is being called Buffy's "Dreamspace" - and it takes place when Ethan Rayne invades her mind/reality while she is under the influence of Amy's magical spell. But if you look at the elements, it very much consists of visual clues about what will come later in the series. Joss Whedon, in his cycle of the comic book season, like in most of his "season openers" gave a ton of information about what the season was going to explore and reference. Plus this image was a huge clue who Twilight was - had there not been all that misinformation that Joss Whedon and the marketing reps from DarkHorse gave about no "cross-overs" readers and fans would have pick it out right away - the "not a Dane" but an "ancient Roman" IMO foreshadow that "Cupid" will be Angel. It also foreshadowed the idea of Buffy becoming a being with God like super powers plus with the ancient classical mythology, both Greek and Roman, Gaia and the four prime first Gods are metaphors for natural forces and the theme of The Gods caring little of nothing about the humans - While some humans are being given special notice and are beloved of particular Gods - the general model is that Gods are way beyond the normal concerns of humans. Giles will later say this very thing about Buffy and her alleged transformation into this model of "Non concern for humans" presumably why Giles has been looking for a totem weapon that could kill God like entities.

Can't even begin to imagine how all this is going to be made to connect and allow Twangel to become a viable hero/champion model again - except that they play the "it wasn't me" card or if Joss Whedon has the nerve and courage to make Angel/Angelus answerable for his conduct throughout the entire S8.

May 03 2010 06:31 pm #92nmcil

Posted some of the new images from Angelverse #32 - large images are at my Flickr site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/

May 04 2010 02:46 am #93ps

Guest

Did Joss hire any writers who weren't Bangel shippers? This is from a Meltzer interview found here:

io9.com/5529953/what-inspired-brad-meltzers-superpowered-sex-in-buffy-season-8

" This was the moment to reunite one of the greatest couples in television history. Not only do we see them reunite, but we also see them have sex, discuss their origins, and discuss how their universe came to be. Joss Whedon couldn't have been more gracious and calming about it, but only a fool would not be feeling the self-made pressure."

It was interesting that Meltzer said he wrote this arc 2 years ago. Making this comic Bangel and making the Angel comics non canon seems to have been in the works from the beginning.

May 04 2010 02:49 am #94slaymesoftly

Moderator

Apparently not. I only wish there was a way to show/convince/demonstrate to these people how very many fans of the show are NOT Bangels, and do not consider Buffy's teenage crush one of the great loves of the century.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.

May 04 2010 03:52 am #95Spikez_tart

That is what is being called Buffy's "Dreamspace" - and it takes place when Ethan Rayne invades her mind/reality - How did I miss that. Ugh I'm going to have to go back and look.

This was the moment to reunite one of the greatest couples in television history. Not only do we see them reunite, but we also see them have sex, discuss their origins, and discuss how their universe came to be. - Barf. I'm not sure what is worse the greatest couple in television history (okay not setting the bar very high there) but the seeing them have sex and discussing their origins. The origins and the universe - that's just so ... lame.

But back to the train picture - does this mean that Joss is confirming that Buffy loves Spike?

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

May 04 2010 03:57 am #96ladycat713

Guest

I've always been firmly of the opinion that the only reason Bangel lasted longer than 6 months was Buffy and Angel's need to justify the body count that resulted from thier sexual relationship.

I think the best proof that Bangel was long over is when Angel's soul was removed with a fantasy. They had to do a lot more than him having sex to lose his soul but that was because he now had foreknowledge that it could happen unlike when he slept with Buffy. Except for him saying Buffy's name as he lost his soul (because it was her the last time it happened) , Buffy was nowhere in that fantasy.It was a fantasy after all, if they'd wanted Buffy in it, she could have been in it.

May 04 2010 04:07 am #97Jeleyne

Guest

"Greatest couples in television history." Um, Buffy and Angel, Fred and Ethel, Timmy and Lassie... Nope, sorry.

"How their universe came to be" is an interesting phrase. Not the same as our universe, then, or any universe inhabited by the remotely sane. The universe that exists only in their minds after they've taken some really strange drugs?

May 04 2010 06:25 am #98nmcil

Buffy and Killer Non-Souled Vampire must be echoes from another plane and dimension -

And This man must be insane if he thinks that readers and fans were not going to be very upset about Buffy and Twangel having this HUGE HISTORICAL LOVE REUNION right on top of all those deaths. This will have to be the lamest excuse for rewriting the history of the series - I guess now we know what the real history of The Universe is - the justification of the 15 year old teen being offered to and taken by the 250 year old vampire. Also, a human male that was way too old for a teen and for whom he ended up having sexual desires that he could not or would not control.

Would any of the men who are so captivated by this, IMVHO, totally unacceptable and harmful relationship want a young woman or their daughters being caught up in this kind of relationship? I bet you every single one of them would say never.

I feel like I have fallen down the Buffyverse Rabbit Hole - I kept holding on to the "wait and see and all will be explained" but how in the hell are they going to explain away and justify all these deaths? I tell you, I smell the biggest Bull Shit Story of Echoes from the Past & Future working together to fix the disasters, destruction and chaos from another plane and dimension. I will not be at all surprised if Buffy ends up becoming Fray. The Buffy and Willow scythe conversion from Season Seven could not explain all that is happening and being suggested by the writers, artists and PR reps. The only balance that needed to be fixed was the stupid balance of one Slayer against all those demons and vampires. Never mind that all those Watchers that could have put their bodies on the line and formed human warriors in big numbes to fight right along with their Chosen One.

I have lost all confidence in these writers and frankly in Joss Whedon - Surely Metzler must understand that this season has not been about Love it has been about moral and ethical choices and the needy emotional life primarily about Buffy - and Willow - now apparently with Giles on his own quest and preparations dealing with Slayer Prophecy. Where the Hell was this big Love the readers were suppose to connect with? All I've seen is Buffy using people to make her "needy emotional connection" - Willow going off and having her own Great Good Times with a Lamia - Poor Faith being used to do the dirty work by Giles - and How about that line from Giles about if GiGi had been a regular job - he could have taken care of the assassination himself.

What kind of people does this writer think the Buffyverse fan are that they would just fall in line and not question the dark and murky and morally reprehensible choices that their story is presenting. Maybe what the characters do and the choices they make are not important to the writers, maybe it is of know particular importance to them that Buffy just threw herself into the arms of the very man that has been playing a huge part in the killing of her Slayers and other people - but that would matter Big Time To Me.

You know, I could accept the Buffy that was capable of such brutality as she inflicted on Spike in Season Six - because as ugly and brutal as she was in that season, it made sense dramatically and was part of the powerful and complex story of human emotional and psychological misery - But all these deaths and killing being down by the great love of her life , how can that "be made right"

The Bangel Fans must be laughing their heads off just about now - reading this interview and what looks like a complete justification of all they have been saying all these years.
I find this all disgusting on so many levels.

I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that all these Bangel Praise and Justification is not really going to happen - but I'm afraid that it really is. I guess Joss Whedon really does think that Buffy. that little lost 15 year Super Hero Warrior, is perfectly fine as the victim to her teenage passions, the uncontrolled passions of a 250 year old male/vampire and that all she suffered and all those psychological scars and trauma as a great and just reward - either by the Universe, The PTB or hell even by Joss Whedon and his season eight writers.

I can't wait to see how and what "spin" is going to be put out in order for all these characters and this storyline to be resolved and not lose a lot of fans that have loved and been devoted to the Buffyverse all these years.

Anybody want to go in with me and split doing scans of the remaining issues and post them here so that we can all discuss - I think that it is important and interesting enough so that all our members and the writers would want to talk about the future of the Buffyverse and how it effects their own efforts.

If this was Metzler's vision all along - did Joss Whedon just turned over his great series into the hands this writer and Scott Allie -

May 04 2010 06:20 pm #99coalitiongirl

Buffyfest's interview with Brad Meltzer:

HERE

Buffyfest: How do you feel about the choices Buffy and Angel are making and what do you think has informed those choices, not just in the last few issues, but with this season as a whole? What would you say Buffy was thinking at the end of issue #33 when Angel asks her if she wants to be happy?

Brad Meltzer: I think the final choices are as true to the characters as can be. What came before that final choice is of course the subject of debate, but I do think these characters know EXACTLY what each other wants. And what they want themselves.

May 04 2010 08:07 pm #100nmcil

This is from an excerpt from the interview why back in December 2009 - when all the reveals and the furor over the Twangel arc and the implications for the entire Buffyverse series really took off. Going back to read again when this all came out - it seems that Joss Whedon really was playing his Buffy-Angel Forever card - all this time. Considering the comments from the interview (see link above) and this writers comments about the real life political and social concerns, I continue to be confused with everything that is being said by these writers and now where Joss Whedon is taking all these. If Meltzer's other works reflect his stated concerns with the real world dynamics of power and corruption, how is he able to reconcile those ideas with what is being presented in his arc. What could be more political and morally corrupted than what the characters of their prime hero models have done - and if both Buffy and Twangel are being subjected to outside influences it becomes even worse. Way back in an article Joss Whedon spoke about Slayers becoming pariahs - just have to wonder how this all reflects back to his models of woman and his primary hero/heroine models. And for all the ignoring of the fundamental truth of Angel/Angelus - this character was created from the premise that his Status of Good was all predicated on "The Good" being a punishment and forced onto the character.

Allie made an off-handed comment in one of his interviews about, and sorry for the paraphrase, about Buffy "that girl has always been off" or something to this effect. Just what the hell does that mean - and talk about "Freudian visuals" and how Meltzer refers to "meat in the sandwich" - every time I see that all I can think about is that sexual dreamspace panel and where he ended up putting Buffy in the sexual/emotional needs sandwich. Funny now when I think about one of my favorite old Buffy Boards - it was called The Buffy Buffet - how sadly appropriate that title has now become. To think that after all this time, pain and suffering that Buffy has lived through, she gets thrown back right back to the teen love that never went away - it all makes me very sad. But I am glad that it looks like I will finally also be given a good "kick in the pants" to back away from my much to much time spent on the Buffyverse. I will always however be so immensely grateful that this series also put me into the path of global myths, Eastern myths, religions, and philosophical systems - not to mention all the great works that I was introduced to - my latest being Hesiod and now Keats. I send out my Forever and Grateful "Thank You" to Joss Whedon and all the great actors and creative staff that made my life with the Buffyverse TV era so rich and intellectually stimulating - after all, isn't that the true and life long value of the series.

MELTZER: Well, the goal is always the same, it never changes — and that's to tell a good story. With that said, the one thing I think about where the comic book very much overlaps with the TV show is that the real meat of the sandwich is spread throughout the season and then it really shows up in the end.

That's just the nature of television. It's not the usual nature of comic books for whatever reason, but in this case, part of it is the way Joss plots, and part of it is just trying to have lots of different people servicing the same story. [Joss] couldn't write 40 issues of a comic — no sane man can write 40 issues of a comic while running a TV show on national television network and trying to change the internet and the way it operates while being everything he is to all of these people.

What you’re finally going to get now is the meat in that sandwich.

MTV: How far back did planning start for your run?

MELTZER: When I came on two years ago, Joss and I talked exactly about what is going to play out in this arc. We talked a lot about plot, about character, and what he wanted to do with the series as a whole. We went back and forth, and then one day a message from Joss showed up in my inbox that said, "You’re going to write the penultimate chapter and then we’re going to end it."

May 04 2010 11:44 pm #101Purr.

Guest

I find this whole thing ridiculous. If they have to defend their cracked up storylines 247 then they are NOT very good storylines..! Should be obvious.

The BTVS writers need to get over their own personal hang ups and do what is best for character development, THE FANS and the storylines.

:grr:

May 04 2010 11:45 pm #102Purr.

Guest

24 7 that is.

May 04 2010 11:46 pm #103Purr.

Guest

This thread hates me, lol.

May 04 2010 11:58 pm #104Ami

It really seems to be a case of "me thinks you doth protest too much". doesn't it? LOL... They have to defend it 24/7 cause they know its ridiculous, it's PrOn , it's OTT, it's OOC and it just plain bad.

May 05 2010 12:05 am #105coalitiongirl

Tomorrow is another ~~wank~~ day...

I find it telling that we haven't gotten a preview yet. Or haven't seen the #36 cover yet because it's too spoilerific. I assume that much will happen in #35, and as long as I keep thinking of it as bad!fic and nothing more, I find it entertaining instead of irritating. Personally, I'm sad that we get such a long break from the comics after this one, since there's so much fandom fun that comes along with them. :)

...and it's T minus 1...

May 05 2010 01:13 am #106Ami

Yup I've been wondering why no preview of #35 or cover of #36..Wonder if "explanation we're supposed to buy. with no questions asked and a big smile on our face " issue #35 is the one when Spike comes in at the end? Who knows at this point? He'll probably get there just as Buffy is having another earth smashing "O" with Twangel.:-O

Yeah after this issue we're gonna have to wait til Sep. for # 36. How friggin ridiculous is that? Bad!fic is the only way to think of it without wanting to hit something. IMO. :)

Love your icon CG.

May 05 2010 01:20 am #107coalitiongirl

I think I heard somewhere that they can't release the #36 cover because of the spoilers. So yeah, I'm guessing Spike arrives- ~~which really Josses the Spangel Spuffy fic I'm working on right now, but that's beside the point-~~ or Buffy travels to the past, a la #37's cover.

At least Seasonal Spuffy's starting in a little bit and lasting for a large portion of that hiatus...we'll get some well-written and characterized fic and artwork instead instead. :P

May 05 2010 01:33 am #108Ami

Yay! Seasonal Spuffy...can't wait for that. Like you said some good, well written fics. When does it start? I keep forgetting.

OK this has got to be the cutest baby blankie EVER...and it's just what Spike's baby girl would have. :) Made me smile.

www.whedon.info/Sarah-Michelle-Gellar-Family-LAX.html

Doesn't it just scream Spike? lol

May 05 2010 02:52 am #109ps

Guest

Previews are finally up:

www.darkhorse.com/Comics/Previews/14-986

May 05 2010 03:00 am #110coalitiongirl

Some very nice artwork there, and Buffy seems to be herself again, even if she isn't mentioning violation...

Love Buffy's expression, and her eyes are lovely in the bottom panel.

Then there's this:

Maybe it's just me, but I remember a clip in the Twilight movie like this (well, technically I saw it in that Buffy vs Twilight video, but...), and Twangel looks remarkably like Edward there. Just saying. :P

May 05 2010 03:13 am #111nmcil

In my cynical mind this is all just marketing - had they really wanted to engage the fans that had so much negative reactions and questions to these last two issues the Big Q&A would have happened soon after the last issue - not now and while the issue is just hitting the stores and after the "Big Explanation and Why" -

I don't expect Spike to show up in this issue either, if he does show up it would probably be something like his first appearance in AtS - when he shows up at the last few minutes and is released from the amulet.

I think that Brad Meltzer and Dark Horse are fairly confident that the "Big Explain of Twangel" will satisfy the majority of the Buffyverse readers - This is the first time that I remember any of the writers speaking of their own personal interest in the political climate and dynamics of power and power elites.

Wonder how the theme of "the real history of the universe" that was alluded to in the last issue is going to be approached. I suspect that it will become this all important explanation for Angel/Angelus' magnetic like attraction to Buffy - the explanation of why he automatically felt this life changing attraction.

Is it possible that the story could really take on another big direction so soon without more Angel and Buffy Reunion? It does not seem that it would be something that this writer would do - doesn't he have to continue with the "support" for the last issue and this HUGE change in the direction of the Buffyverse and the characters. He sure is a huge Bangel supporter and has clearly put Buffy and Twangel as the all important people in the series - at this point only Willow and Giles would have any chance to being seen on the same level of importance as Buffy and Twangel.

Are we really going to get an explanation of why it is ok for Twangel to have attack all those young slayers and Buffy and Satsu as well? Even if they take the soldiers are warriors and are willing participants or Twangel's "abstraction" of they are mortals and death will always come for them- that's the cycle of life, Twangel and now Buffy, will have to answer for those moral questions and actions.

I am both eager and disgusted with my need to purchase this new issue. I am committed to buying it because my local retailer orders these comics specifically for me - when I first started buying them, there would be several issues in the store, now there are only my order and two other issues at most.

May 05 2010 03:29 am #112nmcil

I will post the preview images - but as suspected, Angel is not really Twangel and Buffy is what I really don't know. And Giles is talking some complete nonsense about universal creative forces and the origins of "time." - Isn't time as we know it connected to the human reality and our linear thinking patterns? One of the reasons that most human beings have such an extreme problem when thinking of the universal forces and the concept of "spontaneous creation" something from nothing is most people incomprehensible with the human current thinking model of time and space.

I am so interested if the time slips and dimensional forces that Illyria can access, when Spike is shown to be in what looks like the Fray time line is some how going to be part of the Joss Whedon ending.

I will post the preview images now and will scan some of the other pages - eventually will try to do the entire issue - is someone interested in helping with the scans - maybe between three of us we can do the entire issue.

Interesting that they show them ending up in India - where the concept of creation and time of so different from our Western Religious concepts of Creation and Time -

May 05 2010 04:25 am #113nmcil

Large Image: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3302/4579627555_b33f81e3a8_o.png

large Image: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3309/4580260288_1536cb7b20_o.png

large Image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4579627397_4e5cdd2d64_o.png

large Image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4580260072_6c6825d285_m.jpg

Large Image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4579627151_42e76b8039_o.png

Interesting contrast between Twangel's tone and Buffy's

May 05 2010 05:51 am #114ps

Guest

nmcil, I appreciate you and any one else who can post scans of the issue, or even a synopsis.

So, Twilight is a place not a person and this place is responsible for all the killings, not Angel, because he was under the influence of Twilight. Then all the boinking was because of the influence Twilight has over its subjects? So where's this great love we keep hearing about? Somehow I don't see Buffy being happy to be a subject of anyone. I think the message of Season 8 is Buffy + Angel + Sex are unmixy things. Notice how short they are drawing Angel in these panels so he's not towering over Buffy.

May 05 2010 06:55 am #115nmcil

The thing is that after what has happened you think that Buffy would be outraged - but this character treatment seems like some pretty insignificant has just happened. I am not at all surprised however, as the ending panels of issue 34 were a very good indication of what kind of treatment was coming -

I will get my copies as early as possible and do the scans - I won't do these until I first get all the other done first.

May 05 2010 07:28 am #116Ami

Thanks for the scans nmcil. I'm not buying the comics anymore so I gotta wait for my friend to do so and I'm not sure she will. Still annoyed, wth is Giles talking about? Buffy is acting like it's no big deal that this happened...at least it seems that way to me. She should be screaming her head off. grr.... LIke I said annoying, but more or less what I expected from these people at DH. Now they're in India? OK. Whatever. More Kama Sutra coming up, maybe?

And sorry...but that is some fugly artwork. Xander looks weird,and Angel doesn't look like him. He's weird looking, and yeah just about the same height as Buffy. What's up with that?

May 05 2010 08:41 am #117ladycat713

Guest

Nmcil., I think you're local comics dealer will understand if you tell him to cancel your upcoming orders for this crap. In fact he'll probably wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

May 05 2010 08:41 am #118Scarlet Ibis

*crickets at the preview*

Thanks for posting those, nmcil.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

May 05 2010 05:50 pm #119coalitiongirl

I can haz spoiler! Just one, really, but it's a good one. :)

SPOILER FOR #35 BELOW!

First, the second part of an interview with Meltzer (about the issue, with visual aids) HERE

And then...

Guess who's the cavalry?

I can't say I'm not glad he's here, but I hope his character isn't destroyed completely... :(

May 05 2010 06:05 pm #120Lou

Thanks for the previews even though I didn't want to look. If it is Spike I hope he hasn't shrunk like Angel, who looks like he's turning into Connor.

May 05 2010 09:04 pm #121coalitiongirl

I finally caved and bought the issue, even though I swore that I'd never support the comics, so I'm using my powers for evil instead and scanning it now.

It's a bit of a sloppy scan, but it's all very clear and readable, for those of you who don't want to wait. :)

right...HERE

ETA: The megaupload link is getting moody, so I'm uploading it elsewhere, too. Most of the letters at the end are from Spike fans, asking about him. Looks like we're getting the same treatment as the Bangel fans did before his arrival, lots of glowing (no pun intended :P) discussion about how great Spike is. Obviously, we don't fall for the same idiocy twice.

About the actual issue... Buffy is back. Still a bit fuzzy about the whole Angel thing, but she's always been like that, and otherwise, she's saying all the right things and making all the right decisions. :D

Spike's got the nail polish back, and a ridiculous amount of jewelry. He looks a little girly, IMO. Everyone looks stunned to see him, but the faces are a bit blurry.

And the best line of the issue?

Willow: And...Twilight. Can I just mention that I preferred Angelus?

The second link's ready HERE.

May 05 2010 11:17 pm #122Amanda

Guest

Thanks so much Coalitiongirl.

May 05 2010 11:30 pm #123Scarlet Ibis

Thanks Coalitiongirl.

So...Angel's shrunk, and Spike has baby hands, and nail polish he hasn't used since s5 of Buffy? And all the jewelry...

Oh yeah, this is going to be swell :/

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

May 05 2010 11:35 pm #124Ami

I heard about the nail polish and jewelry on

2maggie2 review. Yeah..hasn't used nailpolish since S5 and no jewelry since S7 and AtS S5. What the heck does it mean? Probably nothing, or maybe we're supposd to get S5 Spike back. Who knows?

Everyone else's character has been screwed, no reason to believe it won't happen to Spike. :(

May 05 2010 11:43 pm #125Niori

Okay, random question- what the hell was Spike driving?

~ Niori ~

May 05 2010 11:55 pm #126nmcil

Coalitiongirl -

does this mean I should not scan as I had planned? are the files easy to download to all? Maybe I will concentrate on just a few pages.

May 06 2010 05:11 am #127Niori

Okay, I am tres confused- do they know who was coming? Willow saying it was going to be good sounds like they did, but then Buffy's this is going to bad sounds like they either didn't (or Buffy is an idoit).

Another thing I noticed: So, all the costume changes were from past slayers right? So the long black coat that Buffy was wearing as she marched out a building or something (before she had the shirt with the British flag or something), was that Nikki Wood's duster?

Nmcil- the files were easy to download- just click download and wait a minute (if that)

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 05:42 am #128nmcil

Going with the clothes transformations reflecting past slayers it would have to go with that change to be Nikki Wood - except that Nikki Wood wears jeans in her first appearance - not sure if she wears the same in LMPTM - it could be that in that episode she wears the beige pants - the blouse that Buffy wears does not match Nikki's blouse either, Woods blouse has the cross ties in the front, Buffy's blouse has a different front - but she has the ties on her pant legs.

WOWj - talk about trashing Angel/Twangel - what comes to me is the Star Trek episode when Capt. Kirk loses his dark side and becomes weak and indecisive - he loses his will and ability to fight and struggle, which is just what Angel/Twangel comes across to me in this issue.

I am having a very hard time caring about Angel - and that is really sad because while I vehemently disagree with a lot of his leadership and moral choices, I always cared about Angel and felt a personal sympathy for his character and all the pain he has endured - he has been a great hero/champion and a not so great hero/champion. I wounder if this writer has any idea just how much he has effected the fan base with this Twilight story and the Angel/Twangel connection. To have left this character that he is suppose to have such great admiration for in the circumstance that many long time devoted fans find it hard to have confidence and respect for the character is very sad.

Have you been or check out the Q&A Twitter?

May 06 2010 05:48 am #129coalitiongirl

It seems like Willow does know, though I'm pretty sure that no one else was expecting him... and I don't think that was Nikki Wood's duster (though it would've been a nice touch) because Angel wasn't rocking Billy Idol to correspond.

Some other thing's I've noticed on the second read- Spike's hands aren't proportionate to his head, which is probably why he looks girly.

We never see the back of that ship-thing, so it might be bigger than it seems...

I love Buffy's backbone in this issue, the way that she finally stops buying into Angel's tripe.

ANGEL: You know that's not what I am. Think of how we got here. This place--it's a place of pleasure--a place you've never been--and the only way we got here is with each other.
(Buffy gives sappy grin. Then hardens.)
BUFFY: One, that is the single velveeta cheesiest come-on line I've ever heard. Two, if you say this is heaven or something stupid like that, I will sock you.

I can hear SMG saying that, which I guess means it rings true to the character voice to me. It reminds me of Buffy vs. Dracula, when the villain starts talking mystical and Buffy snarks it all off. This vein continues throughout the Buffy/Angel talks the whole chapter.

And I love Xander calling out to Buffy, too.
WARREN: She can't hear you.
XANDER: She can. She always can.

Aww...

I'm hating what they're doing with Angel, except that moment when he decides to throw in the towel and follow Buffy in his fight. He's still a mess that I doubt they'll be able to resolve. :(

But still, one of the best issues I've read in a long, long time.

I'm thinking that Spike's been working with Illyria, dimension-hopping and the like, and that's where he got his new toy. :)

May 06 2010 05:56 am #130Niori

Oh...Illyria would be an awesome touch. If nothing else, we can count on her to be the one to point out, in her dry, toneless way, that Angel is killing lots and lots of people.

Okay CG- when you mentioned Angel having to correspond with the Billy Idol look....I burst out laughing, and haven't stopped. Angel as punk Spike is probably one of the funniest things I have ever imagined.

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 06:43 am #131nmcil

Spike , I guess with Illyria Time Slips, is shown to be in what looks like the Frayverse - and he is also the only other character that has been shown with a scythe that looks like the Slayer Scythe.

Ditto the the hating what is being done with Angel/Twangel - for all the emphasis that Scott Allie has made about this being the Angel character we all know, something is seriously out of whack with this one.

Niori - I must be doing something wrong with your files - I have the comic book but I wanted to post the link for other who might not have it - what I am getting is primarily Adds to join and instructions for different types of files -

May 06 2010 06:46 am #132Niori

Oh, they're not my files- their Coalition girl's...I just downloaded them. Ask Coalitiongirl how to get them up there. lol

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 06:48 am #133coalitiongirl

Side point that I just realized and had to mention...after all our worries, BUFFY'S NOT PREGNANT!

(that we know of. But it looks like the writers are going in a different direction, thank god!) :D

May 06 2010 07:45 am #134Ami

Yeah Illyria would be awesome, but she wasn't a BtVS character so she can't appear in the comics,dammit. I'd love Illyria commenting on all the death and destruction. And we STILL don't know if Buffy knew Spike was alive. I think when she said "oh this is bad" she didn't know Spike was gonna come out of that ship thing.

I hope Buffy isn't pregnant CG...who knows at this point. That could be the thing that Allie says will have people going crazy in #39 or whatever the hell he said about fans reactions to the rest of the season. Grrrr...

All I want is to know if Buffy knew our boy was alive and for Andrew not to be dead. And if she didn't know about Spike, I'd like a reaction of happiness at least....let's see what they give us. Remember we never got the bank robbing explanation. Jeanty can't draw for shit.IMO. Remember the sex panels, how Buffy and Angel look to be the same size and Buffy's head was bigger than Angel's, and their bodieas seem out of proportion all the time in the comics. Angel seems to be just about Buffy's size. Why would he draw a good Spike?

Anyway the issue wasn't too bad, not enough explanations and Buffy seems to accept the Twangel explanation from #33...it wasn't him, he didn't kill the Slayers. etc. etc. :shrug:

May 06 2010 08:23 am #135coalitiongirl

Good point about Illyria, Ami...though didn't we think that about Angel? (Which, apparently, meant that they could borrow Angel from IDW as long as he was unrecognizable. Now it makes sense! :P)

And Niori, you've inspired me to make a [ridiculously sloppy-but I need to go to sleep! No time to Photoshop...] image of that... :D

May 06 2010 08:30 am #136Ami

OMG CG...*dies laffin* That's brill!!!!

About Illyria..from what I understand is that no character that didn't originate in BtVS can appear in the comics, and Illyria didn't so...she can't. Neither can Gunn, Connor, Lorne, Lindsey.

I guess this is why Connor isn't that important to Angel, he doesn't really exist in this world. ;)

May 06 2010 03:42 pm #137ladycat713

Guest

Unfortunately they're probably gonna do something stupid with Spike but I would love to have him commenting on a few things about the whole hypocrisy of the Scoobies these days. Like about the bank robbing when Buffy would rather work at the Doublemeat than take money from him.

A few sarcastic comments about how Buffy screwing Angel and endangering the world being something new and different would be nice too.Also Buffy accepting a lame excuse for Angel's behavior and letting him off scot free, that's one we've seen before.

Even if they suddenly come up with something spectacular to finish this off with there's no way to offset the crappiness that's come before especially given how long this has gone on.

And the thing that Spike rives up might be the Owlship from the comic Watchmen. I can't be sure since it's been awhile since I've read my copy and I haven't watched the dvd yet.

An interesting reaction to Buffy just finding out Spike's alive would be her saying if I'd known he was alive I never would have slept with HIM again and I sure as heck wouldn't have slept with a girl!

In a sidebar about poor in love Satsu, I'd love for Spike to empathize with her and make her feel better and maybe tell Buffy off for using her and tell her that she's got a lot to learn about feeling guilt.

May 06 2010 04:42 pm #138coalitiongirl

A few sarcastic comments about how Buffy screwing Angel and endangering the world being something new and different would be nice too.

There seems to be a split in opinion if Willow actually did this this past entry.
BUFFY: Willow, I'm sorry...
WILLOW: I know, I know--you don't know what came over you.
Is she being sarcastic or serious? Judging from the fact that earlier in that page she told Angel that she preferred Angelus, I'm inclined to believe it's sarcasm.

And the thing that Spike rives up might be the Owlship from the comic Watchmen. I can't be sure since it's been awhile since I've read my copy and I haven't watched the dvd yet.

I do think that a Fray-verse machine is the best guess, canon-wise. (And it would also lend some irony to that Spike/Fray fan that Allie's mocked in past Q&As... ;) )

In a sidebar about poor in love Satsu, I'd love for Spike to empathize with her and make her feel better and maybe tell Buffy off for using her and tell her that she's got a lot to learn about feeling guilt.

Ladycat, I want to write this fic. Please? :D

May 06 2010 06:38 pm #139Niori

CG- I love you. It's that simple. Your pic made not only my day, but pretty much my week. I've been laughing non-stop for ten minutes.

I think Willow is being sarcastic actually, from the Twilight line. So far, she does not seem impressed or willing to buy what Giles was telling her (which STILL makes no sense to me), and we all know Xander is gonna freak. For once I'm looking foward to judgemental Scoobies.

Also I don't like how Warren is being made out to be a somewhat good guy. When in canon did he ever really care about Andrew? Pretty much, he used both Andrew and Johnathan, and only really cared for himself. He was the bastard that killed Tara- not a good guy, and never will be. He was a complete pyscho.

Please do write that Spike & Satsu talk thing CG. I've always wanted to see that, since Spike has been there and done that.

And I honestly dread what is coming- I want Spike to be the sense of reason and tell everyone off, but I am terrified that they're gonna turn him back into Buffy's faithful lap dog. If he goes back to that I may cry. Anyone else a little scared it'll go this way? Personally, the little ficlet that CG posted on her LJ (Yes, I'm a creeper) is how I want Spike to react.

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 08:03 pm #140nmcil

Great Angelesque Fool For Love study - Thanks I am working on one - but of a lot more serious tone -

Here is one I did after I read the Buffyfest BM interview - I was so pissed off that I just had to do something - even if I really should not have spent more time on this. As Spike for say ' they have us by the short hairs" - they know how devoted the fan base is. But this comic book has seriously damaged them - I feel really sad for the Angel/Twangel character, there will have to be some very strong and emotionally compelling back story to go with what has happened to him - because this "It's wasn't me or Power Elite outside influence" is simply not going to satisfy the fan base, not the fans that expect a lot more depth and storytelling.

The main thing that I felt after reading this was that after three years plus and all the provocative arc that Meltzer presented in his arc - to get this IMVHO, completely weak ending is a huge disappointment. And the most offensive thing of all that has been part of this entire series is his characterization of Buffy's reactions to all that has taken place in this BM cycle and all that Twilight as done throughout the series.

The rape metaphor seems to have little significance in Buffy's reaction's. Perhaps all the deaths of her slayers, Twangels previous actions, and her own moral, ethical and emotional life will be addressed in the Joss Whedon arc and the Riley One Shot.

The other side of the coin is that Buffy has indeed grown up a lot and that she will now extend her forgiveness and love to this Agnel/Angelus persona as she did to Spike in "The Killer In Me." But also come to the final realization that she must move on from her emotional attachment to Angel/Angelus. Not that I am in anyway suggesting that the "rape metaphor" should be ignored, to me it has become central to how I will eventually see the series, but like with Spike and the third party control - the viewers are now put in the position of giving Angel/Twangel the same level of consideration to this Angel/Angelus if he is indeed the same character. Scott Allie continues to emphasis that this is our Angelverse Angel/Angelus -

How many think that Buffy and Twangel might end up having to give back all their new Super Hero God like powers back to Mother Earth and the Planet? Or if Mother Earth/The Universe wants to use them for her vessel to escape her underworld or core nature imprisonment - Force that power back into its origins.

Someone posted over at Buffy Forums that quote from one of the Star Trek films "why would God need a spaceship?" (paraphrase) and I'm thinking Voll and Amy and The Universe are all working together. We don't know if Amy has been killed or what has happened to Andrew. I would hate for Andrew to have been killed in this episode - I still think that he might play a bigger role, as a heroic sacrifice in this. I hope so anyway, I have always loved the character, is all his nerdness, from his weak sheep dark phase to his transformation in Season 7.

link to Large original: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4584725592_cea75ae936_o.jpg

May 06 2010 08:08 pm #141nmcil

There is something very disturbing to me about the characterizations of this Buffy - Angel/Twangel I have given up on entirely. I never thought I would get to a place with the Buffyverse where I simply would not care one tiny bit about Angel/Angelus - I feel like I should care, I should feel pity for a character that has given in to such despair of life, but for me this is kind of the "straw that broke the camels back." How many times could they have used Angel in his dual role of Evil Angelus vs Cursed Soul Redemption Angel before the character lost all validity? I'm afraid that for a great many fans this may have been that one time too many. If I were IDW and was not given a Joss Whedon plan that gave IDW all and complete rights to connect this insane Angel/Twangel storyline I would be totally pissed off.

That this Buffy, after all that has taken place at the hands of Twilight, all the deaths of the Slayers and so many other people, for Buffy to be talking about her sexual reunion within the context of what she has just experienced - what can this writer be thinking. Doesn't any of that matter to Buffy? I find all the text about their great sex highly offensive. I might be clueless and old fashioned and just out of touch with the young people of today - 'cause I just don't understand this at all.

We waited three years plus to end up with the a "Twinkie Defense or yet another "it wasn't me" for Angel/Angelus. I wonder how many readers and fans are really going to be satisfied with this?

I am trying really hard to understand where this writer is coming from - and as an artist I will afford him all the rights that belong to any creative work - It's his work and he has every right to give voice to the inspiration for that work. Honestly, after all this time, spending all my money on this comics; to say that I found his ending weak would not even come close to my disappointment - both for the story and for his treatment of Buffy and the whole cosmic sex reunion.

As a long time devoted fan of the Buffyverse and Angelverse, this was a sad day for me.

Regarding the rings -

Buffy is wearing an identical ring that simple band on her thumb -

And they have him wearing a strange article for him - his wears a bracelet that has a quality of the Eastern Indian or Burmese ethnic clothing that reflects back on the Slayer shown in Giles' exposition on "evolution and balance" and that ring he wears on the opposite hand looks like the ring he wears in their sexual encounter balcony scene - More Dreamscape imagery.

The impression that I got from the sphere he shows up in is something that reflects A new ship and a new world - a change from this world/time to something different. You will note that Buffy has three times pieces on her wrist.

That sphere that Spike arrives in also very much suggested a visual play with the very first issue - the connections of the other Warrior Queen that had to let go of lovers and love in her life for the same reasons that Buffy gives Angel/Twangel - She must fight for her family and her world - the same sentiments that Queen Elizabeth understands. Buffy like Elizabeth both ascend to their thrones. What the hell Angel/Twangel is ascending to - we will have to wait all these months.

I have for a very long time now thought that this season's Buffy was reflecting the life of Queen Elizabeth - Also why the reference to the Spanish Mourning Robe might connect - That Elizabeth defeats the Spanish and his sea invasion. The sphere that Spike uses, while it looks very star wars or futuristic - it primarily to me looks like a new ship, but a combination of the 16th century war ships and this spherical ship. Plus Buffy wears the British Flag shirt in one of the slayer transformation and it looks like she also wears a variation on the outfit Nikki Wood wears while Angel looks like he wears the same style of clothing from "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" -

And can I say how completely ridiculous it is that with all these years to get this together - Joss Whedon would not have his part and conclusion ready to go.

May 06 2010 09:39 pm #142ps

Guest

Here's the Jo Chen cover for #36. You guessed it, it's Spike, (with BROWN eyes).

www.comicbookresources.com/

May 06 2010 09:49 pm #143coalitiongirl

But pretty! :D

May 06 2010 10:10 pm #144Ami

Oh god, it's our beautiful,deadly boy! :clap: And he looks gorgeous,but NO, NO, NO...Spike has to have Blue eyes. Hopefully it'll be fixed by the time the issue comes out. ( I have no idea how comics work ,it's probably too late.) btw didn't Allie say there would be no cover of Spike? I guess we should not believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

CG you must wite this fic! *falls down on knees and begs* :)

May 06 2010 10:17 pm #145ps

Guest

Definitely a good cover. Allie said there would be no Spike/Buffy cover, so at least in this instance he was telling the truth. Now we have to wait and see if the brown eyes were a mistake, or if there's another reason for the brown eyes.

May 06 2010 10:35 pm #146ps

Guest

Or maybe, we should say Allie was telling a half truth. Jeanty cover is up.

splashpage.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/buffytwi.jpg

May 06 2010 10:36 pm #147Niori

Anyone else notice that that is pretty much the New Moon movie poster?

And honestly, the brown eye thing really irritates me. I mean, come on! His blue eyes are something you notice easily if you look at a photo. It's mistakes like that (for any character) that irriate me.

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 10:37 pm #148coalitiongirl

Ah, ps, you keep beating me to it! :D

Things just got intense...

And then, really disturbing. :(

Really, Joss? REALLY?

May 06 2010 10:40 pm #149Niori

It seems that all our mocking about how much the BTVS Twilight is like Meyer's Twilight is true. God...that's so sad.

Well, at least they have Spike as Jacob, not the annoyingness that is Edward. And I'm fairly certain Buffy would kill whoever decided she was the Bella equivalent.

~ Niori ~

May 06 2010 10:45 pm #150Ami

I just saw it over on

angearia's lj and it really annoyed me, cause obviously Spike is Jacob and we all know what that means.GRRR.. So now what? Buffy WILL give birth to little Renesmee Glowhypnol Summers and she will be imprinted- or whatever the fuck- on Spike and he'll love her at first sight and she'll be his twu luv 4eva? GMAB Joss!

And really he should stop with the mocking of Meyer's "Twilight" cause his comics are way worse than that twaddle now. :neener:

May 06 2010 10:46 pm #151coalitiongirl

I just don't want to hear people validating the Bangel by saying that Bella and Edward are together in the end... because if ANYONE compares Buffy to Bella...

Way to subvert one of the best things that happened to vampires in fiction with the worst, Joss. And I was actually starting to like the comics, too. :(

Also, Spike looks ugly. :(

May 06 2010 11:06 pm #152Ami

<i> I just don't want to hear people validating the Bangel by saying that Bella and Edward are together in the end...because if ANYONE compares Buffy to Bella...</i> I think plenty of Bangels will be doing just that, cause in the cover Spike IS Jacob. I meant it as a joke...I would never validate the Bangel, but plenty of people will after this cover.

I don't think Spike looks ugly tho, I mean it is Jeanty, he looks pretty good actually.Look at Angel ;P Or maybe I can NEVER say Spike is ugly. :)

May 06 2010 11:13 pm #153ps

Guest

The Jo Chen cover is also missing Spike's scar over his eye. At least Jeanty got Spike's eye color right. Those pictures are disturbing, but I have to wonder now if the message of the season is that Joss is mocking the Twilight Saga. From the very little I've seen of Twilight, I always thought Edward resembled Angel, Jacob resembled Spike and Bella was the anti-Buffy. Maybe Joss saw the resemblance too.

May 06 2010 11:52 pm #154coalitiongirl

Lol, Ami, I wasn't talking about you...just avoiding pointing fingers at any particular faction of the fandom. And I do actually think that Angel looks better in that pic than Spike. :(

ps, I agree with the comparison, which is why I'm so upset that Buffy is pictured as Bella, of all people. IMO, the best thing to do when a lesser creation imitates you? Don't acknowledge it at all. And by mentioning it here, Joss gives Twilight (the books) more credibility than it should ever have. ):

May 06 2010 11:54 pm #155Ami

I was just over at Emmie's lj and she said she got word that the eye color will be fixed. So Yay!!

May 06 2010 11:58 pm #156ladycat713

Guest

Coalitiongirl, Write that fic!

I've been waiting for someon to really call Buffy on her callous behavior and who better than someone who's experienced it first hand.

May 07 2010 02:35 am #157nmcil

"I've been waiting for someon to really call Buffy on her callous behavior and who better than someone who's experienced it first hand."

In the e-comic that Joss did - he has Spike being the one to give Buffy that powerful line about leaving her people and lover behind - I would love to have Spike give her a bit of truth about "growing up, moving on, and getting smarter." Buffy has made some incredibly serious mistakes in how she lives her life when it comes to the men she claims to love.

But The Important Fact, at least for me, is that Spike freely chose to sacrifice his life for her and to save the world - Nothing that Buffy or anyone else dreams will change that. Buffy in this season is really conflicted, still after all these years and things that Spike and other men have given her - something really needs to change in her life. If Twangel and this mysterious "Universe" were pushing her - it's time that life finally pushes her into understanding her own emotional life and needs. She let a great love pass her by with Spike, I only hope that she is finally able to acknowledge not just the man, but his love as well. That does not mean that I want or expect that they would end up together - not the point - but I would love for Buffy to acknowledge his immense love that he had for her and what having the capacity to love her like could have meant to her in her life.

May 07 2010 02:41 am #158nmcil

Have to give to Jeanty - this Spike image managed to capture both Spike and Jacob and combine the features into one - I suspect that many readers and fans will hate it, but artwise, not an easy thing to do. The dual face in the Comic Con Angelverse episode was another beautiful combine of characters.

I don't follow the Twilight novels at all - is Jacob the role of Great Guy that ran second?

May 07 2010 03:43 am #159Niori

Yes- Jacob is the great guy who came second. He was Bella's best friend and was in love with her. He kept her sane through New Moon, where Edward left, and was willing to be her friend even after she chose Edward (though at some point it says she loves Jacob too, but it's not the same). Not to mention Bella had a habit of totally neglecting Jacob's feelings- she pretty much insists that he be at her wedding, despite the fact that he's in love with her and hates Edward.

It's easy to pull some Spike parrelles with Jacob (let's just hope they don't ruin Spike by making him fall in love with Buffy's magical baby).

~ Niori ~

May 07 2010 04:42 am #160ladycat713

Guest

What e comic? Any idea where I can see it?

May 07 2010 04:57 am #161Niori

It's Dark Horse presents, and it's one their site. Here's the link (I hope it works!)

http://www.darkhorse.com/Features/eComics/1087/Dark-Horse-Presents-No-24?part_num=0&page=1

And honestly? This is my favourite thing they've done with the comic thus far.

~ Niori ~

May 07 2010 06:22 am #162coalitiongirl

Lol, just had to share my friend's comment when she heard about the gaffe with Jo Chen's version of the cover. "They're redoing it because they forgot the scar? What is he, Harry Potter?" LOL :D

And I will write that Spike and Satsu piece then, ladycat. I'm trying to construct a series of ficlets that take place after the end of the comic, so I'm not exactly sure where it'll fit in yet, though.

May 07 2010 06:50 am #163nmcil

Someone should do a Cyrano piece using Spike as Cyrano to Edward - and also, it would be hard to a in the hands of one of one of the more experienced or passionate Spuffy writers, a death scene with Cyrano/Spike and Buffy/Roxane with of course that fantasy love Angel/Christian

May 07 2010 05:23 pm #164ladycat713

Guest

Niori I agree with you about the e comic.It made me laugh whereas even the ads for season 8 have made me cringe.

May 07 2010 06:09 pm #165Scarlet Ibis

Coalitiongirl, I think it's mandatory you write that fic ;)

Angel too has baby hands on the new Twilight-esque cover.

These comparisons you guys keep talking about? Yeah, I didn't watch/read Twilight at all, cause I wanted to spare myself the agony. I do know that Jacob is the werewolf dude and Edward is Sparkles and Bella is obvious, but I don't know about the comparisons or what happens to who (not even sure that I care at this point, though...). But the cover itself, ignoring the attempt at mockery (and really, Joss & Co have no business mocking ANYONE considering how much they've mocked themselves. On accident of all things), you have Spike and Angel back to back, which works (sans the baby hands and that Angel's coat looks cooler), but then you have Buffy hiding behind not one but two dudes, which is OOC, but there's no point in even pointing out the fact that it's OOC, and time would be better spent pointing out things that are in character, though I don't think such things will ever be mentioned...I mean, they couldn't even get Spike's gorgeous blue eyes right. How stoned do you have to be to not notice that?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

May 07 2010 06:25 pm #166nmcil

wonder if Spike's comments about Buffy leaving her people behind is going to play into the ending arc? Is Buffy going to suffer from guilt or do another great round of "it's all about me" again. Xander gave her some of that in his I love Dawn speech.

Still, I would hate to have anything thing that would diminish the willing sacrifice that Spike did in "Chosen" - that was such a wonderful arc, with his asking for the magic amulet and Buffy giving it over to the new declared "champion and hero."

As much as I truly hate yet another "Angel/Angelus gets a pass card," there obviously is something very wrong with Twangel - he has been played and played big time by this Uber Supreme Power Player.

I can't see the Buffyverse and Angelverse at all surviving with these Super Hero models for Buffy and Angel - so I suspect that eventually all that power will have to be sent back into its origins, either an underworld or dimension where it may be trying to escape of expand from. After the big war, will these two now Super Heroes want to give up all that new power?

Anyone else have the impression that elements of the original Star Trek are being re-cycled? that "environment changing and being created by our own mind and wishes" is just like the planet the crew visited for much needed R&R. The same with this Angel/Twangel that felt like a broken man without the inner strength that his dark side adds to the whole man that allows for a strong leader and warrior. Capt. Kirk seemed to me very much like the Angel/Twangel we see in Twilight - broken with defeated with no will to continue his life as The Champion.

I hope that the background story that Joss Whedon has to come up with to explain WTF happen to Angel/Angelus will actually be given and that we are not left with only this lame "the dark force took me over" justification. IT IS SO LAME.

May 07 2010 06:36 pm #167Ed

Guest

Irrelevant of what Iron Horse end up doing with Spike, let’s all remember that a poor story is just that: a poor story. And, unfortunately, that seems to be exactly what we have in the season 8 comics! It is a story that just doesn't seem to make any form of reasonable sense; a story where the characters act, not only out of character, but also in completely illogical and nonsensical ways! Their actions are just not reasonable

Personally, I really, really wish that Spike had never turned up in this train wreck of a story. Yes, he could bring a brief moment a sorely needed reason to this sorry mess, but given what the writers have done so far, can we really expect this? I think not! Unfortunately, they will, almost certainly, make a mess of his character and of his action too! I know that I'm being quite pessimistic here; but given the recent history of the comics, can you blame me

In fact I'm so pessimistic that I expect Spike's next line to be something along the lines of: Cor blimey luv, this is a bit of a rum situation ain't it? I'm a tad miffed that you and the guv'nor didn't invite me to this little shindig. ... in his best Dick Van Dyke accent!

On a more serious note, I do feel quite sorry for just about all of the main characters, just about everyone has come out of the season poorly. For example:

Buffy doesn't seem to care about anyone else, and seems perfectly willing, and even eager, to sleep with someone who has just killed many of the people that she is supposed to care about.

Angel seems to be responsible for killing a large number of slayers without any real attempt to find a way to avoid this (apparently motivated solely by a desire to be happy with his twu luv!).

Giles is afraid to trust anyone to help him stop a potential apocalypse (Gosh wow ... we've never faced one of them before!) because he appears to be afraid that they will be so scared by the seriousness of the situation that they will attempt to commit suicide like some weak willed watchers did several hundred years ago?

Willow... well, I could go on, but I'm sure that you get the general idea!

I'm sorry, but none of it makes any sense! As I said before, it's a bad story! I suppose that there may well be people out there who love it, but...

Ah well, on a separate point, I know that there has been a lot of discussion on various forums about how the comic format could be throwing people off because of the brevity of its dialogue. But I read comics on a semi-regular basis and I can tell you that most (if not all) comics make a hell of a lot more sense that this. The narrative in comics has to be a lot tighter because of its very brevity, but it still has to make sense! The author still has to tell a coherent story in a way that makes sense, and this is not what is happening here!

By the way, now that's Angel is back to actually helping Buffy (instead of killing slayers), is everything now forgiven? And will that forgiveness extend to everyone, not just Buffy? This man killed friends and comrades; this is not something that can easily be forgiven ... at least not in the real world, and that is where we are supposed to believe that Buffy/Angel is set. People just do not act like that!!!

I do have one question about the whole thing that is not clear from the previous discussions: and that is, are the IDW comics now canon or not? Is there any link between the IDW universe and the Iron Horse universe, or are they totally separate?

ps [post #142] WTF!?! Spike has brown eyes??? How on earth can they get even a basic fact like that wrong? Or are they trying to drop a subtle clue that this is not Spike (and by extension that Twilight is not Angel)? Nope, it's probably much more likely that they can’t even be bothered to do basic research on the characters they’re supposed to draw ... although (brown eyes aside) it is a nice picture. [post #153] The Jo Chen cover is also missing Spike's scar over his eye Ye gods! It just gets worse and worse doesn’t it! And they expect us to buy this twaddle!

Ami [post #144] btw didn't Allie say there would be no cover of Spike? I guess we should not believe anything that comes out of his mouth Personally I stopped believing what they say/said some time ago :)

coalitiongirl [post #162] Cheers! That's very good news, a Spike/Satsu story would be excellent! She's actually one of the few people in season 8 that I have been empathising with. From what I've seen and heard, her reactions to the whole Buffy/Twilight saga are the most realistic thing in the whole season.

One final question; does anyone actually expect Joss Whedon (et al) to leave Buffy paired up with either Angel or Spike in the long term? Personally I don't! I tend to think that Joss is unwilling to make that type of decision for Buffy; which is a tremendous pity as I think that, despite the numerous flaws that she’s shown in season 8, she deserves a bit of happiness; even if it is with Angel. :(

As for Spike, well I tend to think that he will have his brief moment in the sun (figuratively speaking) and probably even a few romantic moments with Buffy (designed to placate the fans!) and then he (and Angel) will disappear ... probably in a puff of smoke, if the rest of the season is anything to go by.

What does everyone else think? Is there a happy future for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike?

May 07 2010 06:47 pm #168nmcil

Interesting that Angel/Twangel is back in his original series costume -

The one episode that I always think of when I see Spike in that red shirt is OMWF - things that come to mind:

Spike saving Buffy
Puppets
Spike telling Buffy that if he had a heart it would be break (anyway you know the lyrics) also, relates to those Oldies song referenced titles.
Buffy reaching out to Spike to feel connected with life.

Couple of other things about the rings - Buffy is shown, conspicuously in the hand panels, to be wearing a simple band on her thumb. Spike also wears the same style band on his thumb the opposite thumb is shown with a band that looks like the one he wears in the dreamscape scene in their sex balcony scene.

May 07 2010 08:00 pm #169Scarlet Ibis

What does everyone else think? Is there a happy future for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike?

No and respectively, no. In fact, I'd say it's "No Future for" them.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

May 07 2010 08:18 pm #170Jeleyne

Guest

Is there a happy future for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike? Yes. In fanfic. Is there ANY future for Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike in Joss Whedon's mind? Doubtful. I don't see Joss doing a final pairing, partly because he seems to enjoy tormenting the fans (did that man spend an inordinate amount of time in his childhood pulling the wings off flies?) and partly just to avoid permanently closing any doors.

May 07 2010 09:07 pm #171Jeleyne

Guest

I, too, am dreading what will be done to Spike in the next issue. But my question is, how can any of these characters reasonably be expected to recover from these events in the short term? Angel is either possessed/enthralled or he is not the person we have believed him to be. If he is being controlled by some outside force, that’s a form of psychological rape. Which will give him lots of cause for brooding afterward, but how does he recover from what has happened? Considering the other option, if he is and really always has been more Angelus (or worse) than Angel, how does Buffy ever trust him again?

Spike’s arrival on the scene is singularly unfortunate, not only because he’s next in line for character assassination. Let’s just say he’ll have cause to regret his vampiric sense of smell and leave it at that.

And Buffy. The comics Buffy is not the girl I admired, empathized with, pitied, occasionally wanted to slap, and always, always loved. I could understand the teenage Buffy hurting, grieving for the up-to-then love of her life, but deep down the series Buffy always knew that Angel became off limits to her the minute Angelus started his reign of terror. It might, and did, break her heart - but she understood it and acted accordingly for the most part. Judging by 34/35, the comics version of Buffy would have hopped into bed with Angelus before Jenny Calender’s body was even cold. The body count now is considerably higher. How does she reconcile that with her conscience, assuming she still has one, when the glow wears off? Not to mention facing Spike while drenched in Eau de Twangel?

One could argue that Giles ran off the rails years ago, but now he's gone from bad to ludicrous. Then there’s Willow, whose behavior is something I don’t even want to contemplate. I guess she’s really gotten over Tara’s death. No grudges, no hard feelings, huh?

There are multiple betrayals here. The characters have been betrayed by the storyline and they have all betrayed themselves and each other. No matter which pairing you prefer, or none at all, how do they get over/past this? How do they cope with what they’ve done? There’s a lot of nice angsty fanfic waiting to be written, but the violence that has been done to their characterizations by the (real) PTB is appalling.

May 07 2010 11:33 pm #172coalitiongirl

I'd just like to defend Buffy. Yeah, she did have sex with Angel. But she was under the influence of some weird glow- that we know nothing about yet- at the time. Before that, she was beating him up, and after that, she rejects him immediately. And she's not to blame for the glow- that would be Joss Whedon's fault. :D #35 actually brought back my Buffy. :)

May 08 2010 01:37 am #173Jeleyne

Guest

I agree, coalitiongirl - didn't mean to sound like I was attacking Buffy, because I'm not, although I do have a hard time imagining her doing some of the things Season Eight Buffy appears to have been involved in (robbing banks, etc.) But regarding 34/35, it was mostly the "under the influence of some weird glow" part that I was thinking about. Ever wake up with a really, really bad hangover? Even allowing for the fact that they have previous experience with thrall, spells, compulsions, etc., this would be a particularly nasty "morning after". Some memories of what they've done while under external control aren't going to be fun - if they ever stop and think about it. Not sure they're allowed to do that in comic-land.

May 08 2010 01:53 am #174Niori

The only issue I have, is Buffy still seems more than willing to not call Angel on the killing of the Slayers. I mean, she started to, back in 33(I think), and then the screwing started, and the issue was dropped. Yeah, Buffy canme back to herself here and chose her own destiny and all that, but she's still all romanticish with the guy who killed her slayers. Not to mention put her and all of her friends in danger.
Hopefully she'll bring it up again, and flip at Angel over it. Frankly, there is not an excuse I can think of in the world that excuses what Angel did, and I'm hoping Buffy will see that as well (I don't see it happening, but I can hope).
But you're right- this is the closest to show Buffy that we've seen thus far in the comics. Hopefully she'll stay this way, and the other characters will be redeemed.

~ Niori ~

May 08 2010 02:21 am #175Ed

Guest

The weird glow that coalitiongirl mentions is indeed the great unknown! That being said, does it actually exist as anything other than a comic book special effect (it probably does), and if so, exactly how is it affecting Buffy (and Angel)? I just hope that Joss Whedon has a very good explanation for it!

I do however agree that Buffy (late #35) seems to be much more like the Buffy that we can recognise from the series; fighting to save things is much more in her character than hopping into bed with someone who has just killed friends and comrades. However, there hasn't even been an acknowledgement that Angel/Twilight killed these people and that he must answer for this! Yes I know that the immediate situation must take precedence, but a simple we'll talk about this later might have been in order; particularly as they had time for lingering looks [I finally cracked and looked at the uploads].

I think that what most people are looking for is an acknowledgement that Angel/Twilight just might have done something wrong! This may indeed still be forthcoming, and so I'm not giving up hope yet!

Having said that #35 Buffy is truer to her television character I still have a number of reservations about Buffy's actions in season 8. Specifically, sleeping with Satsu, bank robbery, declaring her (supposed) love for Xander immediately after learning of Xander/Dawn... I could go on! The point is that Buffy is not quite Buffy; yes she's always made questionable decisions, but her season 8 decisions are even worse than normal. And yes, a very big yes, Joss Whedon is indeed the source of the glow and of all of Buffy's actions during season 8 (as in all other seasons); we'll just have to wait and see what Mr Whedon does to explain everything.

Personally, I finally have some (small) hope that with Joss Whedon taking the helm again, the story line and characterisations will be better; they couldn't be worse. He, if anyone knows the characters and will hopefully have an explanation that makes sense ... but I'm not holding my breath! I still expect most things to be brushed under the carpet.

Eau de Twangel I don't even want to think about that Jeleyne! Personally I fully expect that particular aspect of the storyline to be completely ignored despite that fact that vampires are fully capable of picking up on that type of cue.

PS: I do acknowledge that Joss Whedon has every right to do as he wishes with his characters and tell any story that he likes, but as a reader/fan I have every right to not particularly like the story or the characterisations.

May 08 2010 03:18 am #176nmcil

"I'd just like to defend Buffy. Yeah, she did have sex with Angel. But she was under the influence of some weird glow- that we know nothing about yet- at the time. Before that, she was beating him up, and after that, she rejects him immediately. And she's not to blame for the glow- that would be Joss Whedon's fault.

#35 actually brought back my Buffy.

"
coalitiongirl
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's not Buffy that has so totally screwed but this writer who seems to think that because he had a personal devotion or belief in the Buffy-Angel Love Forever Soul Mate Baloney, that he could impose that relationship on the entire series willy nilly - and he had to have had Joss Whedon's approval to do so. And you are right, at this point everything is so friggin confused by the combination of atrocities and chaos that has to connect Twangel to all that has happened - how can the separate the character from in a realistic and satisfactory manner from all that he has become involved with - either directly or as an accessory? Who in the hell could possibly be satisfied with the "Twinkie Defense" and Twinkie is sadly appropriate if he has been tempted by this sweet sugary fantasy escape from this life that he completely despairs of, that he has failed at and that has apparently broken him.

Meltzer cannot expect that any serious readers would simply accept what he dished out in the issue as the escape clause for the actions of Angel/Twangel and how all this dragged Buffy's character into as well. If his intent was to show that they love and missed each other so much that using the "glo" plot device would be a complete contradiction in the eyes of the readers - what else could it possibly be interpreted as but a rape metaphor? And if the panels immediately after Buffy's is trying to kill Angel/Twangel, which show her sudden change of mind and emotional set from nothing more than Angel/Twangel's words of love, then the character is equally shown as weak in character, mental state, and leadership qualities. Someone please tell me if I am wrong and have misunderstood everything in these last three issues. What Brad Meltzer has offered the readers as his "big explanation" issue, he is totally misunderstanding the quality of the Buffyverse fan base. I would say that 75 to 80 % of the comments I have read are from disappointed and dissatisfied readers and fans. There are still a lot of devoted fans that are on the "wait and see" till after JW's resolution phase to make a final judgment.

Did anyone participate in his Q&A Twitter? What was the response there? Were there many questions that continued to asked about Angel and how his actions are going to be addressed? The few Bangel die hard posts that I read seemed perfectly satisfied with what was presented. One of the posts felt that Angel wanting to stay in Twilight was understandable; after all he did it because he loves Buffy so much.

Sorry for the rant, but every time I think about what this writers has done with the Buffyverse and the character of Buffy and Angel it just make be angry. Just how are they going to bring Angel/Angelus back from this? Meltzer's is being unrealistic if he thinks that a third-party outside force without some very spectacular and emotionally powerful story is going to work.
And if we go by the past comments from Scott Allie and other of the PR voices, Spike and his fans are not going to be happy campers at the end of all these. If Jeanty's issue 36 covers is remotely connected to the real "Twilight" characters, than he is very likely to go off to his vacation cabin for a bit of heart repair.

Read a post over at another site about how Jo Chen's cover was also a take off on the New Moon Posters - so I did a little bit of checking and it seems that a couple of the other covers are similar to the New Moon posters - the one with Buffy and Angel in their lovers embrace in particular.

May 08 2010 07:25 pm #177nmcil

Finally managed to get my Issue 35 scans up at my flickr site - created a set for easier access - It is important to click on the "all sizes" to see the easy to read large size. I personally don't like to read the small image size - but I guess you can try that if you do not have fast download. All pages are posted with the exception of the big fight scene which does not include text except for 4 characters shouting out "Buffy" - in the interest of time I went ahead without this scene - all else is included.

link to the Buffy Issue 35 set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nmcil/sets/72157623893281503/

May 08 2010 08:05 pm #178ps

Guest

I thought Joss was mocking Twilight but now I don't think he is. It looks like there is no Joss Whedon genius at work here. He's fallen back on the oldest, most tired cliche in Hollywood. Joss didn't trash Angel. He trashed Christianity and by extension all Christians.

Christianity is represented by Angel. In Joss' world, Angel is hiding behind the mask of Christianity, traveling all over the world to do evil in the name of saving people. He is portrayed as evil, insane and psychotic. Joss then brings us the sex issue, representing the rapture, which leads Angel and Buffy into paradise. Angel is shown turning his back on every person and every thing he loved just so he can stay in paradise, not caring that those Left Behind are having to deal with hell on earth.

Buffy, the character in the show who has been most aligned with the neo nazis as represented by Riley/the Initiative, then makes Angel look like an idiot, convinces him to turn his back on paradise thereby saving him from Christianity.

The Universe, the one controlling Angel, and then Buffy making them do what he wanted them to--God. The prophesy that led the watchers to commit suicide--The Book of Revelations.

I shudder to think how Spike will be used in this scenario. Will he be bringing the weapon and means to kill God?

Thanks for posting the scans nmcil. They're probably the last I'll see. At the moment I don't think I can support a man who has shown acceptance and tolerance of all religions, including occultism, and then spends 3 years trashing mine.

May 08 2010 09:29 pm #179Ami

Thanks for posting those nmcil...:) I took a closer look now, and Buffy is wearing a gold pinky ring, just like Spike's. And Spike doesn't wear gold rings...it's always silver ones. Wonder if that means something? :O

May 09 2010 01:07 am #180Niori

I've decided that, as much as I really, really don't like Twilight, I think it's low for a franchise like BTVS to trash it. It's not even a subtle dig at it either, and far from professional. And if it's not mocking it, then he's trying to cash in on it. Which is also disappointing. If I was Stephanie Meyer, I would not be pleased.

Also, I'm beginning to get the sense, from what I remember from reading interviews, is that's not so much mocking Twilight, but in a sense, mocking the fans. The whole big (and annoying) thing with Twilight is the whole team Edward vs Jacob. Everyone who is not a hardcore Twilight fan rolls their eyes at that. Now, in BTVS, it's Spike and Angel (though, from my experiences, btvs fans aren't as scary/crazy as Twilight), and there are the whole shipping wars. In interviews, the writers/artists always seem to make shippers come off as morons. What better way to roll their eyes than compare it to Twilight? I may be wrong, but I am so cyncial about these comics, especially since they don't seem to care that, off and on, they've alienated a chunk of the fanbase.

Anyway, semi-rant over.

~ Niori ~

May 09 2010 02:25 am #181Ami

I agree with you Niori. It's coming off as petty and sour grapes.And really, Joss should stop with the Twilight mocking, cause this comic is pretty bad,and look how many people are mocking IT.
DH has totally alianated a huge chunk of the fanbase, which I really don't understand. Don't they wanna make money? Spike has a huge fanbase, and it's like they don't care about that at all. It's weird. And now they bring in Spike to what? raise sales? I don't know. I'm just as cynical as you. I wonder if the sales will go p once Spike appears? Or what the figure was for #34?

May 09 2010 02:51 am #182nmcil

That one cover with Buffy and Angel in that close embrace looks very much like the image from one of the New Moon Posters - it looks like the mirror image -

I don't know WTF the plans were - but right now, Brad Meltzer is not one of the "favs" in the Buffyverse fandom - but I don't blame him entirely, because he had the clear light and according to BM, in contact with Joss Whedon about everything that was done in his arc.

As far as Joss Whedon mocking Christianity - I don't believe that at all - however, it is very likely that if he follows Greek/Roman Classical Mythology, or the Thor's Hammer, it is very likely that someone or something could use the totem weapon that Giles was speaking of to kill the mysterious Universe power - and I suspect that both Buffy and Angel will have to give their Super Hero powers back to its source of origin.

It is really a bad move to have all this delay before the next arc begins - even with the Riley One Shot it is a long wait. Maybe the idea is that all the readers who have responded negatively to the BM arc will have calmed down a little by September - It is really, IMO, a bad idea to introduce this provocative theme of uncontrolled sex by third party manipulation and then had Buffy engage in this cosmic sex encounter. You can't throw your prime hero model into that situation after all that has been presented and can be connected to Angel/Twangel - you just can't do that and leave things off they way Brad Meltzer has done. Buffy not seeming to care that all that great sex was had just after so many of her Slayers have been killed in this was the Twangel has been involved in. What information is she going on ? does she care that she just had the big reunion with the person that has been kicking and killing her Slayers and doing the same to her and Satsu? You cannot give that story plot change without giving the background information that supports this Twilight and evolution arc.

A few of some the of questions from the Twitter Q&A with BM

Q: 35 question! Now that Spike is back, does this mean that Angel should ready for a beat down?

BM: I'd buy that.

Q: Did he kill 206 slayers before to make his Key powerful?

Bm: They did die. Can't say he killed them.

Q: Did Angel use Buffy as a Key to open a portal to the Twilight reality?

BM: They opened it together.

Q: Are the frays erin,melaka and harth going to be included in this whole orgasmic universe thingy

BM: the fish from Fray did.

Q: Does Satsu will remain relevant in the rest of the history?

BM: I think so. For sure.

Q: where you surprised to find out that Buffy Angel reunion wasn't what people expected for ten years?

BM: No.

Q: I love Buffy and Angel talk about how they missed each other, was there a reason there was no declarations of love?

BM: Nope.

Q: in #35 Buffy and Angel argued showing they don't know each other anymore, so except the sex, where is the connection

BM: Disagree.

Q: Was Angel deciding to leave with Buffy his way of reclaiming control Twilight had of him?

BM: That decision had power.

Q: Are you going to be back for Buffy season 9?

BM: Not after this.

The end.

May 09 2010 03:44 am #183ps

Guest

Nmcil asked earlier in the thread: If this was Metzler's vision all along - did Joss Whedon just turned over his great series into the hands this writer and Scott Allie - According to Georges, it looks like that is exactly what he did.

Georges: Would you say that Joss explains everything? There is a lot of mythology stuff going on here and most of it was proposed by Brad Meltzer. Weaving it into the Buffyverse might take some time, but yes, the last arc deals with the fallout of Issue 34. And there will be fallout.

As busy as everyone keeps saying Joss is, exactly how much was he been involved with Meltzer's arc.

Niori, Georges touched on the Twilight angle also. He said I think it shows that Joss has a sense of humor about all this popularity with Vampires at the moment.

Ami, I just checked the sales figures. They're not out yet for issue #34. It'll probably be about another week before we see them.

Nmcil, I can see Christianity being mocked all over the place. Maybe I didn't explain it well, but I've found a writer who explains part of it better than I did.

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/106474.html

May 09 2010 03:51 am #184Jeleyne

Guest

was there a reason there was no declarations of love?
BM: Nope.

Well. That certainly indicates how much connection he has with the characters, doesn't it? If I were a Buffy/Angel fan, I would be furious at such a cavalier dismissal. It's offensive and a travesty.

May 09 2010 04:12 am #185Niori

Good God, could BM's answers be any more unsatisfactory?

Ps- with the Twilight thing, Joss showing a sense of humor about it, is cashing in on it. Which, I consider just as annoying as mocking.

~ Niori ~

May 09 2010 04:31 am #186ps

Guest

I agree Niori. I've wondered why Joss used the name "Twilight" from the beginning since his characters and stories are superior. He should have distanced himself completely from that saga.

May 09 2010 04:37 am #187Niori

God, what's it say that I honestly do prefer Twilight to the season 8 comics? At least that doesn't try to pass itseld off as anything but teen fluff, where the comics are trying to say they're the best things ever!

~ Niori ~

May 09 2010 07:22 am #188nmcil

I only posted a few of the Q&A's that I thought might be of interest here - but all the his answers were, IMO, curt - it felt more like he was pissed off how so many readers have had such negative comments about this arc in particular. I thought see how a professional writer could follow his plan and not expect to leave a great deal of dissatisfaction from the readers.

By this point, I frankly am totally confused about what the plan was for the Buffyverse and this season - And I have lost all confidence in the PR and Marketing Reps - Take the Riley one-shot. Scott Allie clearly stated that he was a minor character and that his story would not be expanded due to the time constraints and page space, yet we are now getting an entire issue on Riley. I think they had to do something to bring in more support back story and so we are now getting an additional comic -

Those of you who are familiar with the Twilight series - did you feel that the covers from Jo Chen were mimicking the Twilight posters?

Could you please post the link for this Jeanty interview were he speaks of the Twilight angle -

Guest - wish I new your name - I would love to see your ideas on the mocking of Judeo/Christian religion.

I can see the possible connection with The Garden of Eden and the Fallen Angel - but I take it more as a literary reference. That is such a rich myth and has many layers. In this instance, if we want to apply the temptation, it is fitting IMO because Angel/Twangel was tempted and I believe that he was also being manipulated both physically and emotionally - he is indeed being played by by other Power Players. Angel does play the conversion of Eve in their Garden of Delights and Rewards but unlike the biblical First Parents, Angel's magical garden is an escape. I suppose for some who believe in the Christian interpretation of this creation story offense could be taken with the possible implication that religions and faith, like in Angel's case, can be a way to escape or to mold the world to fit an individual perspective. But even if the writer is using the Adam-Even Garden , it does not necessarily follow that his intent was to criticize or mock the Christian Religion.
Frankly, what I saw in his treatment of Twilight and his treatment was more of a connection with the original Star Trek series. There is an episode where the crew goes tor R&R to a planet where the minds of the humans are probed and the "realities" of the planet are adjusted to fit what the crew is thinking.

Regarding the theme of "evolution" that one I can't even begin to understand - Meltzer and Joss may well have a philosophy that they are referencing. Angel/Twangel speaks of , in his opinion, the idea of humans creating their own world realities and social realities - That is some thing that actually do believe. That we all through our history and interactions with other humans do take a great responsibility for creating our own world view.   This was addressed in the Buffy relationship with Spike - it was she who primarily, from her narrow world view created the reality of the tragic relationship.   She even looks up in the sky and says "thank you" for sending along a duty and distraction for her when she manages to pull herself away from feeling and reaching out to Spike through the barrier of his crypt door. Even the song, which was perfect, tells that the barriers are all self made.

Unless Joss Whedon is the actual force behind this evolution super hero arc, I'm not sure that Meltzer was really going for that. Frankly, right now I think a lot of people just don't know what to think - I don't see much of any logical connections or support for the evolution, super hero powers, twilight, war and destruction themes. And it was a huge error, IMVHO, to ever have put Buffy in the situation where she falls into the reunion sex with Angel/Twangel - if his intent was to show that as an expression of their immense love and passion , bringing in the "glo" element took all of that away. I know very few people who would not have grave problems with their sexual encounter under those circumstances. Add to that Buffy having the most intimate form of connections that two people can have with the person that has been directly involved in the war against herself and her Slayer Army - it could not be worse.

Regarding the use of myth and biblical creation story, I tend to see this not as Christianity being referenced but Greek/Roman classical myths about the original Creative Forces, The Titans, and the War of the Olympians. My personal opinion and totally a personal interpretation is that Buffy in S8 reflects the reign of Queen Elizabeth I -

Thanks for the link - I admire this person's writings and critics.

May 09 2010 08:53 pm #189Spikez_tart

Hi all - Yes, Joss is really working the Greek/Roman myths and stories. See my post on Season 4 It's all Greek to me for a break out of the story bits from the Aenaed, Illiyad and Odyssey that Joss used. He's also a self professed atheist who has no compunction about using and abusing Christian themes, such as:

Buffy is a messiah figure. She holds her arms out in a cross form when she jumps off the tower, dying to save the world.
In the "Cruciamentum" she fights demons. She also pets a pig in S1, for a possible tie in with Jesus casting demons out into pigs.
In S1, she rises from the dead (with a little help from Xander) and emerges from a cave (like a tomb). She again rises from her grave in S6.
Willow, despite being Jewish, nails a cross next to her bedroom window. (Willow as St. Paul?)
Giles in his dream in Restless calls her a Lamb. "This is my business. Blood of the lamb and all that."
Spike calls her a"poor, lost lamb" in Smashed.
Spike states emphatically that there will be no church wedding in Something Blue.
Spike is also a messiah figure.
In S7 he gets tied on a cross and cut so he bleeds. (Spear in side during cruxifixion)
He suffers great pains in his head (symbolic crown of thorns?)
He is imprisoned then freed. (Twice - First by the Initiative, then in S7 by the First).
Later Spike is sacrificed to save the world in a pillar of light, holding his arms out in a T (more or less).
During the final S7 battle, Buffy gets stabbed in the side with a spear. It appears she's dying, but
she gets up again after being taunted by the First.

Worst of all is Caleb (biblical leader of the Jews when they came into Caanan and conquered it after
being in the Sinai desert for 40 years). He is a typical and repulsive perversion of Christian ministers
that is so so typical of Hollywood these days. Barf. There's also Ken from Anne, who is a quasi
minister like figure who turns out to be a Capitalist Pig Demon. More Barf.

There are some positive Christian symbols - the nun that lets Buffy try on her wimple. A Catholic
priest who has information but has been killed by the time Buffy finds him (Pangs). There's also a nun on Angel that he visits for information. (Again, the priest who has information is dead.) Interestingly, the nun immediately recognizes that Angel is a vampire and evil. Angel dreams of marrying Buffy in a church, but she burns up.

I'm sure there are other symbols that JW grabs off, but being Jewish, not totally up on this, so will
defer to those more knowledgeable.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

May 10 2010 04:20 am #190nmcil

I have been pleased with how Andrew, one of my favorite characters, has been characterize in this season - same for Xander, Dawn and Faith, These characters are for me symbols of change where Buffy, continues to be burden with her life and duties as the General/Leader. Willow continues to be her Powerful Witch character, Giles also primarily continues in his Watcher. However, for Giles I find his comment to Faith "were this a garden-variety assassination, I would have used a rifle and done the deed myself. It sounds very ominous for Giles – he is burden like Buffy with having to make some tough decisions and connected himself with some dark and dangerous parts of his character.

Agree with you about Satsu, don't know why some readers took offense and her leaving like that, it's a perfectly understandable response - and she comes back to the fight soon as she needs to.

"Faith points out that she's a Slayer again, but the other girls aren't."

Why do you think the other slayers did not get their powers back - Faith states "even with their powers back" I guess like so many of the other questions and theme, it can be taken to mean two things. What is certain, is that the demons from this other dimension are extremely powerful also that Voll and Amy are part of the powers that are behind everything. Thanks for the link I will go over and read later.

On those lines from Angel/Twangel - they were emotionally the most powerful of any in this arc, I felt very sorry for him. Something has gone desperately wrong in his life - or the Uber Power Third Party is tamping into his mind to manipulate him. And again, Voll seems to know that Angel/Twangel is being played.

Wish I could feel the same level of positive response that you have from this issue - but I can't seem to find it against so much of the violence and killings that have been presented with its connection to Angel/Twangel. All those deaths should matter, and someone should have to take the responsibility for those deaths. I have been thinking very much about how I can reconcile his actions as Twilight, especially since Spike was shown mercy and compassion from Buffy when he was under the manipulation of The First. If we accept that Spike because he was being manipulated into killing those people, how are we to see Angel/Twangel? It is the same circumstances?

It is the fault, IMVHO, of Brad Meltzer and his lack of information and unanswered questions and back ground support for the plot devices he introduced in his arc. I think if he had given the readers more info on Angel’s background story, the negative response might have been different. Were they his, or Joss Whedon’s? Presumably both he and JW discussed what was going to be the storylines.

The panels where Angel and Buffy create the adjustments of Twilight with their thoughts are interesting. The theme, of how our minds use our personal and social history and combine it to create of individual worldview, IMO, has always been a major element in the series.

The awesome power of humanity acting together to change our world is one that, if ever it were tapped into would indeed make a new world – The "Give Peace A Chance" is my "world wish." A dream world that could happen if enough people decide to let go of all their hate, anger, greed, quest of power and material wealth. I can see Angel if his life has become unbearable wanting that "wish world."

Look at the world humans has created – just last week a Picasso was sold for how many millions? One painting created in one day; a painting that gives the owner a sense of what? Power, Ownership, who the hell knows. But just think of this one single act contrasted to the thousands of people who are suffering and in need of help. Imagine how much difference the money spent for one single painting used to help others would make to life on this planet and its peoples.

So for me the question of Angel/Twangel is of paramount importance – and it all becomes more complicated when, as I must, consider how Spike was treated in similar circumstances.

May 10 2010 04:50 am #191nmcil

While Caleb, who by the way was my favorite villain in the series, is presented as a Beelzebub character to the Anti-Christ The First, I always saw him more as a political figure head. I am an atheist also, and what is of importance is not religion and the religious faithful but their insistence in imposing their ideas of religion and faith on to the entire society. People have every right to believe in any religions they choose to follow, what they don't have is a right to insist that their faith interfere with how I choose to live.

Buffy and Spike and Buffy as Madonna Guide, definitely agree that Joss Whedon used these characters as religious symbols - Symbolically, Buffy and Spike surpassed all others in the Buffyverse, the other characters that comes close as a sacrificial figures are Faith and Drogyn. Angel/Angelus as his status as "Good Man by Curse" is perhaps the most interesting and complex - the implications for the character are so interesting. The fundamental premise to his character is a conversion of Good and Evil - it essentially states that life following the path of "Good" and what is positive in our social structure is a curse and a burden. Angel with his curse is the exact opposite of the Joy, Love and Grace that is suppose to come with religious doctrine and faith. And how strange is it that irrespective of how many times Angel/Angelus does evil deeds, or dictates what happens to other people by his choices, he always comes out with his character in the "cleansed by fortune" and forgiven.

May 10 2010 03:33 pm #192Ed

Guest

Personally I don't particularly care that Buffy slept with Angel except inasmuch as this was a highly immoral thing to do considering that Angel had just killed many of her friends and comrades. It may well be that at some later point in time Angel is somehow shown to be innocent of this crime (and crime it is!), but the fact remains that at the time that she ~~slept with~~ has sex with Angel she must have believed him to be guilty of this crime!

It is of course eminently possible that this mysterious glow may have caused her to have sex with him [but isn't that a case of the Universe imposing a solution rather than the much touted evolution?] and therefore cannot be held responsible for the sex. However, morally speaking, she must have a responsibility to call Angel on his actions now that she has thrown off the effects of the mysterious glow! In other words, she needs to ask Why the hell did you kill my slayers you miserable son of a bitch! or something along those lines.

Yes I know the pace of the story has been quite frantic, with barely a moment for pause, and Buffy's questions could come later, but she is still duty bound to ask the question (and many others), otherwise she is miserably failing in her in loco parentis duty! And, even if there is a logical/sensible answer to this question, and Angel did not kill the slayers, this still does not negate the anger and ill feeling that will almost certainly be directed at Angel from the remaining slayers and the other core characters!

Personally I have fairly strong doubts that this particular question, and its fall out, will be handled by the writers (and therefore by Buffy) in a realistic manner. Hell, I'm not even sure that the question will be asked!

Why? Well:

She hasn't asked it as yet
Even after she (supposedly) threw off the effects of the mysterious glow she was still gazing at Angel in what I can only describe as the most simpering of manners
Pretty much all of the core characters seem to be more excited by the mere presence of Angel than angry that he has once again betrayed them and been responsible for killing many of their friends,
Very little responsibility has ever been taken by the BtVS/AtS characters for any of their actions either in the series or the comics; so why should things change now?

I would love to be proven wrong on this point! I would love it if this question is handled well. In many ways, how the writers (have Buffy) deal with this issue is more important to me than how they resolve the whole issue of the Universe evolving the slayer/vampire lines, Twilight, or whatever else the story is supposed to be about. I tend to regard the story as being pretty much of a lost cause i.e. it's silly, nonsensical, full of massive plot holes and, most important of all, boring!

Please surprise me Mr Whedon.

PS: OK so I may be misreading the simpering gaze bit, but that's the way it looked to me [Oh Angel, you big lovable hunk; I adore you! ]

PPS: There are actually many other issues within season 8 that interest me, but they are mainly issues concerning the morality/immorality of the characters actions rather than an interest in the story itself.

PPPS: Once again nmcil makes an interesting point concerning Spike being forgiven for killing while under the influence of The First [post #190]. But, at least as far as I can recall, the only person who actually showed him this compassion was Buffy! I seem to recall that everyone else seemed to be horrified by his actions and wanted him dead: nor were we ever shown any change in that view! [I could be wrong here!]

May 10 2010 03:37 pm #193Ed

Guest

Why? Well:

She hasn't asked it as yet
Even after she (supposedly) threw off the effects of the mysterious glow she was still gazing at Angel in what I can only describe as the most simpering of manners
Pretty much all of the core characters seem to be more excited by the mere presence of Angel than angry that he has once again betrayed them and been responsible for killing many of their friends,
Very little responsibility has ever been taken by the BtVS/AtS characters for any of their actions either in the series or the comics; so why should things change now?

Please surprise me Mr Whedon.

PS: OK so I may be misreading the simpering gaze bit, but that's the way it looked to me [Oh Angel, you big lovable hunk; I adore you! ]

PPPS: Once again nmcil makes an interesting point concerning Spike being shown compassion after killing while under the influence of The First [post #190]. But, at least as far as I can recall, the only person who actually showed him this compassion was Buffy! I seem to recall that everyone else seemed to be horrified by his actions and wanted him dead: nor were we ever shown any change in that view! [I could be wrong here!]

May 10 2010 07:41 pm #194nmcil

Great Post Ed -

It's not that Buffy and Angel/Twangel had sex, Buffy's a big girl now, it is totally about this Lover's Big Reunion under these particular circumstances. And the premise that he is not responsible for the deaths, IMVHO, is like saying the generals and political leaders that make wars and lead a war are not responsible for the deaths because they do not actually fire the weapons - it is their field warriors that do all the killing. If this is going to be the working premise for getting Angel/Twangel and his "keeping the numbers low" than something really is rotten in Buffyverse. Joss Whedon has some serious shit to clean up in his resolution phase.

"she must have a responsibility to call Angel on his actions now that she has thrown off the effects of the mysterious glow! In other words, she needs to ask Why the hell did you kill my slayers you miserable son of a bitch! or something along those lines."

My final assessment of this entire comic book season and the current state of the Buffyverse will be based on how this is handled -

It appears to be that Giles will be playing a major role and that he has had been playing that role from the start. At the end of his assassination plot against Roden and GiGi, he tells Faith that he knows the war is coming and Twangel, in the next page, states that those two characters were his targets. Now either Giles has made contact with other Power Players or he too was being manipulated by Twangel. Both Giles and Angel/Twangel have a lot of questions regarding the actions.

Back to the Spike "forgiveness" question; the circumstances with Angel/Twangel will, IMO, all depend on if there is "free choice" involved. Was Angel/Twangel given a choice to take one path or another. The same holds true for Buffy, just before all the "glo" she was clearly shown as completely ready to kill the person whom she felt was responsible for killing those Slayers and the war against the slayers. The moral and ethical questions and how they are applied to this story and the continuing relationship between Buffy and Angel/Angelus are going to be significant for a great many readers and fans.

May 11 2010 01:03 am #195ladycat713

Guest

"Faith points out that she's a Slayer again, but the other girls aren't."

Is it Faith that's the Slayer again or someone else. Because if it's Faith then that's because she was actually Chosen the way Slayers were supposed to be instead of randomly mass activated.

"Yes I know the pace of the story has been quite frantic, with barely a moment for pause, and Buffy's questions could come later, but she is still duty bound to ask the question (and many others), otherwise she is miserably failing in her in loco parentis duty! And, even if there is a logical/sensible answer to this question, and Angel did not kill the slayers, this still does not negate the anger and ill feeling that will almost certainly be directed at Angel from the remaining slayers and the other core characters!"

Buffy failed at in loco parentis the minute she slept with Satsu!

"Please surprise me Mr Whedon."

In a GOOD way though , A good way. Don't suprise us by figuring out to make it work than we can possibly . AGAIN!

May 11 2010 03:19 am #196Spikez_tart

Pausing to say some good things about the comics. The way they threaded the different scenes together was pretty cool.

Is Faith "The" Slayer now? Technically Buffy isn't, since she's been dead and the line moved on.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

May 11 2010 06:51 am #197ladycat713

Guest

I meant worse not work and possibly imagine.

And Buffy really hasn't been the on call Slayer since her first death. It was Kendra and then Faith.

May 11 2010 08:07 am #198nmcil

How many here know the Frank Capra film "Lost Horizon" - It seems to me that Brad Meltzer took a great deal from that film and novel and did a strange mirror world conversion and used the basic World Love and Peace Vision from those sources and has used them in his Twilight arc. All of the basic premises about the world needing to evolve and having Twilight be there waiting for the time when the forces of Power, Greed, War to devour themselves and bring the apocalypse to earth. The inhabitants from Shangrila and their evolved human psychological and spiritual doctrines are there waiting to begin a new world for humanity. The film even has a lovely scene devoted to the film romantic couple playing with one another and referring to "fingers" -
where the scene in the film is all about the innocence of these two characters, if we applied the Issue 35 connection, it is all about sexuality.

There are so many things in the film that, both the philosophy and the characters that fit, but in a conversion, to the Meltzer arc. I have not read the book but I plan to.

May 13 2010 01:14 am #199Ed

Guest

Buffy failed at in loco parentis the minute she slept with Satsu! [ladycat713 post #195]

Absolutely, no dispute on that one ladycat713! It was indeed a major failing by Buffy.

There are two extremely good reasons why romances between superiors and juniors are generally frowned upon, particularly in military and para-military style organisations: specifically a) the possibility of coercion by the superior and/or b) the possibility that the superior may show favouritism to the junior. And what's more, they must avoid even the appearance of these occurring! The in loco parentis aspect of this particular situation only makes things even more blurred and complex, as Buffy owed the duty not to take advantage of the natural admiration that was directed at her by star-struck juniors; irrelevant of how lonely she may have felt.

Personally however, I tend to think that Buffy's real sin in this specific case was one of inexperience and naiveté rather than a true sin. It seems to me that she was lonely and reached out for someone to ease her burden, and she didn't stop to consider the potential consequences of her actions; either to herself or to Satsu. She didn't stop to consider how taking Satsu into her bed could be seen by others, or even whether she was taking advantage of Satsu. Does this make her a bad leader? Yes, undoubtedly it does! Does she fail in her in loco parentis duty? Once again, yes! Does this make her a bad person? Possibly ... it certainly shows her to be a weak person … although it should be noted that there are many forms of weakness! For example, Buffy is often portrayed as being strong in relation to her duties as a slayer but is often shown as being weak in relation in the area of her personal emotions.

May 13 2010 04:27 am #200ladycat713

Guest

Buffy may not have considered the consequences in taking Satsu to her bed the first time and might have just been lonely but her later behavior shows of selfishness , thoughtlessness or just plain cowardice.

Once could have been wrote off as a lapse where she let her lonliness rule and was basking in Satsu's love and admiration. The second time there's no way she didn't know she was leading Satsu on, Also Buffy should have recused herself from the promotion process the minute she began a sexual relationship with a subordinate. Getting promoted so soon after sleeping with Buffy will taint Satsu's future and her realtionships with other Slayers. Any time a Slayer doesn't want to follow orders from Satsu or wants to stage a coup all she has to do is start taling about how Satsu slept her way into the job. It will also diminish her confidence in herself in her job since she won't know that she earned in on the battlefield instead of the bedroom.

And lastly the cowardice could be not only Buffy promoting Satsu to get her far away because that way she doesn't have to face her own guilt over using her and the way she ignored Satsu the next time she saw her was cruel and cold. And instead of telling Satsu herself that she led her on and apologizing for her behavior and telling her that she deserved better treatment , Kennedy was sent to tell her there was nothing between her and Buffy and that Buffy did indeed lead her on . This way Buffy never has to face her guilt or apologize (something the Scoobies are notoriously bad at). . She never apologized to Spike for her abusive behavior either. The closest we even got to acknowledgement was Spike saying that he knew it wasn't about him and her snotty remark about how he was just now getting that. I don't think we'll be getting any guilt from Buffy in the future (especially given her season 8 behavior) unless she has a major epiphany (and not of the teflon variety).

Buffy as a fighter is strong but as a person she's incredibly weak and she is questionable as the adult for one person and really should never have been given charge of more than the Scoobies . Considering how screwed up they are , it's not like she can really do any more dmage.

May 13 2010 06:11 am #201nmcil

"Buffy as a fighter is strong but as a person she's incredibly weak and she is questionable as the adult for one person and really should never have been given charge of more than the Scoobies . Considering how screwed up they are , it's not like she can really do any more dmage."

This is the pattern throughout the series - incredibly strong as the Slayer, but very weak and terribly self-centered as a woman - she is such a combination of everything that is great but also of very bad and weak character traits. We can understand this in her teens and while she is still a very young leader, but she is not there any longer. Albeit, Buffy is still a very young woman, but Buffy has been leading the Scoobies and living the life of a Slayer for a long time now. I suppose that the working concept for the character is that she is not held to the regular chain of command rules that would apply to in the real world setting. Except, the theme of Satsu feeling that it was inappropriate for her to be given special notice by Buffy was established very early in the season - and a writer would not put such a specific reference into the story if it were not important.

The more that the prime characters and hero models are given "outs" for their poor choices and questionable conduct, they more the writers help to detract from their own characters. How many viewers and current readers and fans don't have very strong opinions about Buffy's culpability and her complete lack of any acknowledgment of her attack in the alley or how she used him as her personal whipping boy in Season Six.

May 13 2010 12:58 pm #202norwie

Guest

First, i greatly enjoy your discussion here, since it seems to attract some of the more intelligent ideas. The last couple of posts have had weak!Buffy as a centerpoint and, quite frankly, i have to jump in and defend my Buffy. Because, while my Buffy did beat up a soulless Vampire in a backalley - she also took responsibility for that, in her own and powerful way: Action speaks louder than words. And, oh boy! do her actions speak, throughout season 7 Buffy nurtures, guards, defends, fight for, frees and loves Spike. So - big speeches about "being sorry?" Spike says it right in "Beneath you": Just words, and never enough.I don't need Buffy to grovel at Spike's feet - she owned up to what she did, i her own and very powerful way.

Ok, long defensive rant - where does it lead to?

Oh, yes! Buffy in season 8 and her questionable behaviour. Let's be honest here with ourselves. Sure, we try to make sense (and possibly find deeper meaning) out of these comics because we LOVE BtVS. Unfortunately, we and the creative team love different things about the show. We love character development and interaction, powerful metaphors and a human and heroic female lead (and where else do we get THAT?). The creative team loves generic superhero comic stuff plus the ability, to show off some teenage girl skin. And that's about it. So, Buffy/Sastu between the sheets? Twice? Teen boy fantasies, from 12 year old boys for 12 year old boys. My Buffy, sure, could do something like that. But she wouldn't act careless of other people's opinions - love is something serious for her.

Which leads me to another problem with this "continuation". Time phenomena.

I will distinguish 3 different time lines or phenomena.

1. Audience Time, or Real Time, as in today is May, 13th, 2010.

2. Series Time, as in what date is it in BtVS at any given time.

3. Audience-Series Interaction Time, as in Tuesday, baby! 40 minutes of goodness!

In BtVS the TV series 1. and 2. were mostly the same, ie. when decembre 1999, then chrismas 1999 on Buffy. So, Audience Time = Series Time.

3. was served in weekly doses of 40 minutes, compressing roughly one to seven days of Series Time into 40 action packed minutes.

The comics are a different beast altogether.

Audience Time and Series Time are completey out of synch, we get 4 years of Audience Time vs. 1-2 years of Series Time, and the actual dates and seasons (spring, summer, fall, winter) are different.

On top of that, the Audience-Series Interaction Time is severely diminished: We get roughly 10 minutes interaction time per month.

So, we get 4 times the Audience Time, 2 times the Series Time and only a fraction of Interaction Time (~1/16th).

No wonder i'm confused by the comics - my viewing habits conditioned me differently!

Add to that the plot of season 8 which is a pretty epic arc, wether you consider it a lame or crack!fic doesn't matter. With 40 issues we don't even get half a season of TV Buffy time, streched out over 4 long years with a completely off Series Time.

For me, that means the pacing of the comics seems to be pretty off/bad and i don't get enough Interaction Time to actually make sense of most of the stuff, ie. there is no time to actually deepen the characters and plot lines and CONNECT to both.

So, Buffy f*cking left and right, an idiot plot (as in: every person has to be an idiot to make the plot work) and all morally questionable behaviour all around? Could happen. But the comics actually cannot sell that, as time phenomena coupled with teenage boy creative team is just not enough to recreate Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. For example, If we'd get SMG and DB acting out #33-35, MAYBE we could buy that. But Jeanty's child characters trying to portray complete swings and turnabouts within 2 or 3 panels? Leaves us exactly where we find us now: An unlikeable Buffy, confusion about plot and character motivation and allaround dissatisfaction.

I don't blame my Buffy! ;-)

nw

May 13 2010 01:23 pm #203Ed

Guest

I think that both ladycat713 and nmcil say just about everything that needs to be said on these issues. While I can indeed characterise Buffy sleeping with Satsu, for the first time, as a moment of weakness, there can be absolutely no excuse for her subsequent actions towards Satsu: I never meant to imply otherwise; although re-reading my post I didn't make that clear ... sorry!

I still however tend to think that Buffy sins in the Satsu case are ones of inexperience and naiveté rather than a real attempt to take undue advantage of Satsu; although undoubtedly she did! It still seems to me that Buffy was just not thinking about the potential consequences of her actions or of how things could look to others. Quite simply, she has never been allowed to think in this manner, to learn that there are consequences to her actions!

To me, it's a question of intent rather than action. To me, Buffy didn't actually mean to harm Satsu or to undermine her position; she thought about the moment rather than anything else. Unfortunately, it was and is her job as leader to think beyond the immediate! And this is indeed where she fails and fails badly!

The problem is, as nmcil essentially points out, Buffy has never been allowed to grow up and mature into her responsibilities. And she should have by now! She's never been allowed to see (or even care) how her actions may affect/effect others. The writers have essentially kept her weak. They have kept her unable to recognise that there are consequences for her actions. Kept her unable to look beyond her own immediate emotional needs; she's never been required (by the writers) to do more or to take responsibility for her actions.

Who is to blame for all of this: Buffy or the writers? To me, it is the writers who must bear the responsibility; not Buffy! They are the one's that have never allowed Buffy to grow up and mature into the leader and person that she could be.

Is the season 8 Buffy portrayed as being weak and even venal ... yes! But, to me, it's the writers that are to blame for this; it’s the writers who are writing her that way! A fine distinction I know, but it's the only one we've got. Unfortunately we now have the Spike character assassination to look forward to!

One of the great beauties of fanfic is that they allow Buffy and the other characters to mature. They allow the characters to acknowledge that they have made mistakes, to learn form those mistakes and even to make amends for those mistakes; unfortunately the current comic book writers do not seem to feel the same way!

May 13 2010 02:34 pm #204ladycat713

Guest

I would love for the characters to see the consequences of thier actions and maybe if Buffy had continued as a series we would have gotten the Scoobies to do that. Unfortunately they've chosen to undo any growth in maturity the characters had in the comics.

Real world consequences would be great. I would rather that Dawn had stayed at college and faced the damage her cheating had caused to her boyfriend in him having difficulting trusting women and have where she's seen as a whore by everyone would have been more character building than the cheap gimmick they had instead.

Have Satsu's family show up and denounce Buffy as a sexual predator and threaten loss of funds (her parents being a benefactor) if Buffy isn't removed from leadership immediately. If she refuses the funds are withdrawn and Satsu's father starts telling the other parents about the how his daughter was used by this person in a positin of in loco parentis.

In canon, they could've had family of one of the dancing demons victims show up looking for revenge after finding out Xander summoned the demon and kept his mouth shut after peple started dying.

With Riley have family member who fought in WW2 denounce him as a Nazi after finding out about the Initative.

The Scoobies could really use some kind of empathy spell to allow them to fel the pain they caused and see the damage they did.

And how odd is it that the demons on the show are the ones showing the most guilt when they're not supposed to be able to feel any?

May 13 2010 02:53 pm #205coalitiongirl

On my way out, so I don't have time to respond to everything, but this "sexual predator" thing really stood out for me.

Buffy isn't a sexual predator, just like Parker wasn't a sexual predator. She had willing sex with someone who's (presumably) over the age of consent, and chose not to continue the relationship. Granted, the girl was in love with her, but that just makes Buffy a bit of a creep.

Dawn spent months as a doll/centaur. I think she's learned her lesson, and IMO, that what her boyfriend did to her was much worse- even a violation.

Oh, and about Riley (I'm really going to miss my train :P), he LEFT the Initiative when they were doing the wrong thing. That makes him a hero, not a Nazi.

May 13 2010 03:21 pm #206Ed

Guest

Hi norwie

Sorry I didn’t see your post while I was busy composing my own; you make interesting points.

In relation to the comic book format you're perfectly correct. Time and space constraints are indeed major issues within the comic book format, and this does indeed mean that the storyline and character development are often hard to keep track of from month to month. On the other hand, I have read comic books for years, and still do to a somewhat lesser extent, and many of those other comic books still manage to handle both of these issues successfully.

Essentially, as you point out, comic book writers have neither the time nor the space for the complex interplay of characters and their motivations that a TV series or a book will allow. However, good comic books can still manage to covey emotions, a coherent storyline and even character development; although the character development often needs to read by implication, as all the writer has space to do is point the way, with the reader filling in the blanks. Comic book writers therefore need to be extremely terse and much more careful about what they have the characters say, as they only have that limited space available to them!

Unfortunately, the season 8 writers (creative team; call them what you will) are not doing a very good job of this! What we have here is bad writers; (for me) they cannot carry the story or write believable and recognisable characters. And this is why we have Buffy acting in the way she does.

On your other point, the defence of Buffy; well, yes, Buffy did indeed grow noticeably in season 7. She was maturing! Unfortunately, the season 8 Buffy seem to have regressed; the writers have thrown away all of her hard won maturity! And this, to a large extent, is what we are really bitching about; season 8 Buffy is seriously out of character! She is not the person that we saw her becoming!

What we have are bad writers, not bad Buffy! It’s the writers we’re really bitching about!

May 13 2010 04:32 pm #207nmcil

For Guest on comic writing styles -

What I find most mystifying about the S8 is the way that for three plus years this comic has been in print - after all this time, why have they introduced the vital plot point only at the end of the series? Is this a common style for comic books? Here we are only six issues from the conclusion and we have this totally new information and direction not only for the comic book season, but something that will change the entire series - this makes little sense to me as a reader. Taking the necessary restriction that this literary format has, why wait all this time to introduce the most vital premise for the entire season? Of course there is no time and space for the answers that most readers who came over to the comic book genre expect. Why did the writers and Joss Whedon wait all this time to introduce the Slayer Evolution theme, it's like we had all these years of mostly "filler" and now that the real story has been introduced, the "comic time bowl" is almost entirely filled but the important ingredients haven't been put in yet.

Guess that is why we are getting this Riley one-shot - even if Scott Allie stated in his interview that Riley was a minor character and would probably not be given much page space as the series came to its ending phase. I wonder if the Riley issue was called for by the negative response by so many readers and their continuing questions about the moral and ethical questions that the Meltzer arc introduced.

May 13 2010 07:20 pm #208Jeleyne

Guest

It sometimes appears as though Buffy is expected to be perfect, make all the right decisions all of the time, and when she fails to live up to that standard, she is condemned without mercy. Seems a bit unfair. Yes, she’s made errors in judgment. Or, rather, the writers have caused her to make those mistakes, because I don’t believe for an instant that the “real” (series) Buffy would do some of the things the comics writers have had her do.

Buffy/Satsu? The writers were playing to their audience, and that’s not the fans who came from the tv side of the equation.

I totally agree with Coalitiongirl’s comments on the sexual predator issue. A one- or two-night stand does not a sexual predator make. It may well be an uncomfortable mistake and the easy way out is to try and ignore it afterward, which is how members of both sexes have traditionally behaved. Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s human nature.

I wonder if tv-Buffy would have remained in the “General Buffy” role for very long. It seems antithetical to her character. She’s also much more forgiving than I would be - if a group of people had tried to kick me out of my own home, I would have absolutely nothing to do with them after the immediate crisis had passed.

As for Riley, I’m not fond of the character but I must defend him against some of the charges again him. He seems to be an example of how basically good people can unwittingly get caught up in horrific things. (Anyone familiar with Babylon 5 saw Zack start down that same slippery slope with the Nightwatch organization.) Riley believed he was doing the right thing for the right reasons, and an organization such as the Initiative doesn’t encourage questioning orders. Riley had difficulty grasping the notion that there could be a “good demon” but so did Xander Harris. We the audience had a vested interest in Hostile 17; Riley had no such sympathies to make him question the “my organization right or wrong” philosophy. We also had the benefit of knowing what the Initiative was really doing whereas Riley had make certain discoveries before he could see the overall picture, plus he had to overcome the “good soldier” mindset before he could take any kind of stand against the Initiative’s more nefarious activities. That said, I still don't see any need for an all-Riley-all-the-time issue of the comics.

May 13 2010 08:36 pm #209ps

Guest

The Initiative was bad right from the start. Evisceration and experimentation on living creatures is doing the wrong thing. And Riley clearly knows it's happening even if he doesn't know the end game. Any rank in the military can question any other rank, as long as it's done correctly and respectfully. Riley did not have to go along with this. It's been awhile since I watched these episodes, but I thought Riley turned against the Initiative only after he found out they were experimenting on him. Riley himself is shown as an emotionally needy bully who has no reservations about torturing Spike or any other creature they catalog as demon. When he returns in AYW, we're told that Riley and Sam want to capture the demon they're chasing, not kill it. So he didn't change at all. If they're giving him a one shot to answer moral and ethical questions, it's going to be a hard sell for me.

I've read more manga in the past 10 years than comics, but I've got to agree that the writing/creative teamwork on this comic is bad. Nmcil is correct that too much of the major plot line is being brought in at the end. The storyline in the first part of the comics has become secondary/non-existent due to the questions that are being raised now. The manga of Inuyasha ran for 12 years. The major story arc is introduced at the very beginning and the resolution comes in the final issue. Along the way the major story evolves and is fleshed out. At the same time there is character development, character deaths, subplots, minor story arcs, filler stories and 2 ships being dealt with, but the major story arc is never forgotten. I didn't read this manga for the entire 12 years, but when I heard it was ending, I was able to pick it up again without being totally lost because the characters didn't have drastic changes in personality nor was there an introduction of a new major storyline or a large shift in the old storyline.

If, in the Buffy comics, we had been given more information as to what Giles was doing and what prompted his actions, we would have been able to follow the Twilight story as it developed instead of just having a Ta Da! it's Angel! moment. Also, the reveal felt lame. It would have been so much better if the audience could have followed along, having learned somewhere along the line that Angel was Twilight even though Buffy and her followers did not. As it is, it feels like the writers didn't have a clue what was going on and were waiting for Joss to wrap it all up.

As for Buffy's strength and maturity, I saw it first in Season 5. Buffy is given responsibility for keeping Dawn safe and it is this that leads her to standing up to the Council. Of course not long after that she dies and when she's brought back, she's changed and the maturity of S5 is gone. In S7 Buffy shows tremendous growth and maturity, right up until she is kicked out of her home. This makes her not only question Buffy the girl, but Buffy the Slayer. In comes Spike and gives her the strength to carry on. Buffy regains most of her maturity but not all, as evidenced by her seeking approval from Giles and the Scoobies before acting again. In the comics, Buffy has sex with Satsu. This is someone Buffy knows loves her, someone who is convenient but also someone we see Buffy use in order to feel. We saw this story in Season 6 and to replay it in S8, S7 has to be ignored. There are other things that happened in S8 that can only take place if S7 is ignored, and it seems the writers are comfortable doing this, but by ignoring Buffy's growth and maturity, the character is stagnating, and neither superpowers or space boinking are going to help in this area.

Personally, I like mature, grown up Buffy, the one that has learned from her past mistakes and goes on to make new mistakes.

May 14 2010 12:49 am #210coalitiongirl

Jeanty Q&A

May 14 2010 01:35 am #211Ed

Guest

This is probably going to be a long post so bear with me.

First of all, the sexual predator accusation; I looked at the post where the sexual predator comment was first made and ladycat713 [post #204] said:

Have Satsu's family show up and denounce Buffy as a sexual predator and threaten loss of funds (her parents being a benefactor) if Buffy isn't removed from leadership immediately. If she refuses the funds are withdrawn and Satsu's father starts telling the other parents about the how his daughter was used by this person in a positin of in loco parentis.

The context in which this particular post was made was a discussion about possible real world consequences of actions taken by the scoobies. ladycat713 was merely suggesting a potential storyline where Buffy was accused of being a sexual predator due to a perception by Satsu's parents that Buffy had abused her position to seduce Satsu; the in loco parentis bit of the discussion. There was, as far as I can tell, no accusation that Buffy is actually a sexual predator! There is merely the suggestion that the accusation could have made for an interesting story! That said you'd have to check with ladycat713 to be 100% sure that that is indeed what was meant; but that's certainly the way I see it.

Similarly ladycat713 was merely suggesting another potential storyline (and possible real world consequence) when making the suggestion of the family member denouncing Riley as a Nazi due to his involvement with the Initiative. There is little doubt that the Initiative had Nazi like overtones and thus an accusation is not unreasonable; particularly from someone who stood against that evil and doesn’t know the full facts. As for Riley's actual guilt or innocence, well, personally I cannot really remember his precise reasons for leaving the Initiative, but presumably that would be the key to the story: hero or villain? But either way, you still get a boring Riley!

There were other suggestions as to potential real world consequences to scoobies actions. It's an interesting post go away and read [post #204]; but for context, read a few of the preceding posts too! And remember, an accusation need not be real and accurate to be made!

Next nmcil [post #207] asks:

What I find most mystifying about the S8 is the way that for three plus years this comic has been in print - after all this time, why have they introduced the major plot, they vital plot point only at the end of the series? Is this a common style for comic books?

The short answer is no, it is not usual for this to occur [see post #209 by Guest ps for a more complete answer]. Yes information is often held back and plot twists can occur at any time but that is true for all types of story formats. As everywhere else, in comics it is very bad style to use a last minute plot reveal as a sort of deus ex machina. As I've previously said, it's bad writing! It isn't the norm for comics!

My personal belief is that the writers were expecting the fans to go Gosh, wow, it's Angel! Swoon! I luv Angel! That makes this silly story brilliant! What plot holes? I love season 8 now! And now that Spike has been brought into the storyline I suspect that the writers are expecting the remaining naysayers and doubters to be similarly silenced and filled with admiration for their brilliance! But perhaps I'm being too cynical here!

To continue nmcil also asks:

Why did the writers and Joss Whedon wait all this time to introduce the Slayer Evolution theme

I have absolutely no idea; as I said this type of thing isn't really standard practice (anywhere!). It should at the very least have been hinted at! In reality, it should have been a developed theme of the story; even if a theme that was not apparent to many of the main characters. Once again I think that the writers were expecting a Gosh wow reaction! They certainly failed with me!

Finally Jeleyne [post #208] says:

Yes it does seem that way! I can only really speak for myself when I say that I condemn the writers not Buffy. The Buffy that we saw, particularly in season 7, was utterly different from this season 8 Buffy. It is the writers who have essentially regressed Buffy, almost to a Barbie doll! If we condemn her, we are really condemning the writers!

As for insisting that Buffy be perfect and always make the right decisions, well, we all know that that Buffy is not perfect! In fact she’s far from perfect; she’s a flawed hero! She quite often makes bad decisions, but that only makes her human. What we object to is what the season 8 writers are doing to her! Buffy is better than that; and I say that as someone who isn’t really a great fan of Buffy (the character) in any season!

May 14 2010 02:48 am #212ladycat713

Guest

While Buffy wasn't a sexual predator she did do major wrong. She should've taken herself out of the loop completely promotion wise so that it was shown that no undue influence was used for Satsu to get her promotion. Also that way no one can later claim sexual harassment if they didn't get the promotion they want or try to earn a promotion through sex. Parker was a sexual predator however. He slept with women after faking an emotional connection in order to get a one night stand. And from what was said he was doing it on order to work his way through the female freshman class. While not illegal it is predatory.

One theme in fanfiction is showing the Initative not bothering to discriminate between demons who might be harmful to humans and those who were just living thier lives peacefully. It wasn't shown in canon (I don't think) but the implication that anything that is different must be destroyed showed up when Walsh tried to have Buffy killed by setting her up with a faulty weapon and had demons ambush her.So I don't think the idea of less dangerous demons being experiemented on is too far fetched.

Real world consequences would be especially good now that the Scoobies having been so isolated from humanity the way they have in season 8. It would connect them to the humanity they've been isolated from. The first mistake they made with season 8 was isolating them all in a castle. By distancing them from hmanity , they could easily begin to think of themselves as other and better than humanity and the situation is rife for corruption.

I think if they had to make Dawn a giant because of her losing her virginity then bringing in her Keyness would've been great. That plot point was dropped before it could be fully explored.

I don't expect Buffy to be perfect but I would like her to mature and grow and admit her mistakes. Somebody resurrect Holden Webster (a brilliant idea who should've lasted)

And has anybody noticed how many of the core Scoobies have cheated? Angel cheated on Buffy with Dru, Willow on Oz with Xander (non sexually), she cheated on Kennedy with the snake lady, Xander cheated on Cordelia with Willow (non sexually) and Dawn cheated on Kenny with his roommate. That's screwed up Maybe getting the writers into therapy for thier relationship problems would help the storyline.

And a good combination of real world and supernatural consequences would have Dawn's cheating result in pregnancy. With her being the key no telling what would result . Add in that she's involved with Xander now and that every woman's he's been involved with was a demon currently, formerly , in the future or in an alternate universe (Willow) and that's very telling really. And Dawn's parentage was never spelled out clearly enough for me. If she was made from Buffy only she'd be a clone, which clearly she is not .

There's so many interesting ways they could have gone and frankly they seem to have ignored.The writers of season 8 seriously need and intervention.

May 15 2010 01:06 am #213Ami

I was just looking at the sales according to ICv2.com and Issue#33 sold 46,568 while the big F@#$%^&* issue #34 sold 45,909...that's a drop of 659.

So it looks like they lost more readers, their big marketing ploy didn't work too well, huh? Now let's see what happens with #35..wonder if the addition of Spike is gonna raise sales? :)

May 15 2010 08:38 pm #214sosa lola

I have been pleased with how Andrew, one of my favorite characters, has been characterize in this season - same for Xander, Dawn and Faith, These characters are for me symbols of change

As a Xander fan, I'm really happy that Joss decided to continue the series. S7 showed us a grown up Xander who had matured and mellowed, especially regarding Spike and Buffy's decisions, but he didn't really have a purpose. He just accepted that he's not special and became quiet and less useful. S8 continued with his character development and this time he has a role just like everyone. He's the leader, Buffy's second in command, he trains Slayers and guides them, he trains himself and spars with Renee, he's in shape, he fights, he's filled with purpose. So, you can all understand why I'm so in love with S8. Finally, Xander isn't neglected in the background.

where Buffy, continues to be burden with her life and duties as the General/Leader.

To be fair to Buffy, she's been going through hell all season. Leading a small group of people in a small town to fight the town's big bads is nowhere near leading hundreds of Slayers against global demons and humans who hate them and consider them terrorists for blowing a whole town. Remember in S7, Buffy was able to provide food for the potentials because the supermarket's owner fled out of town and it's abandoned. If it wasn't, Buffy would have to sell the house to keep them fed. Now Buffy has no house, nothing, I think she was too desperate that she had to steal. Emmie had written a wonderful missing scene about how Buffy decided to rob a bank.

Willow continues to be her Powerful Witch character,

Willow is filled with mysteries. Personally, I haven't been much into Willow ever since she started practicing magic. I'm not a huge fan of magic, it solves problems easily. I like it more the hard way.

Why do you think the other slayers did not get their powers back - Faith states "even with their powers back"

I missed that quote. My mistake.
.

On those lines from Angel/Twangel - they were emotionally the most powerful of any in this arc, I felt very sorry for him. Something has gone desperately wrong in his life - or the Uber Power Third Party is tamping into his mind to manipulate him. And again, Voll seems to know that Angel/Twangel is being played.

I enjoy Stormwreath's arguments about Angel/Twilight in Buffyforums. He seems to be reading the issues again and brings interesting quotes like for example from Time of Your Life:

WARREN: So... we all get how this is Amy's fault?
AMY: Sweetie, that's not technically...
WARREN: Technical is my domain name, baby, and the bomb delivered. Your spellcasting was trumped by first-year wiccans.
AMY: You said they would die in the blast.

Looks like the attack was far, far less effective than Warren and Amy thought it would be. Why's that, I ask myself?

AMY: Huh? All the Slayers are evacuating the castle. What's going on?
WARREN: Someone must have tipped them off about our attack. We've got a traitor in our midst.
AMY: But the only people who know about the plan are you, me... and Twilight...
(Both turn to look at him.)

Seems like Angel warned the Slayers about the attack before it happened.

It is the fault, IMVHO, of Brad Meltzer and his lack of information and unanswered questions and back ground support for the plot devices he introduced in his arc. I think if he had given the readers more info on Angel’s background story, the negative response might have been different. Were they his, or Joss Whedon’s? Presumably both he and JW discussed what was going to be the storylines.

I wish the Angel reveal happened earlier, but Joss did confess that he made Angel wear the mask because of After the Fall. You're right about not getting enough answers, but Jeanty revealed that the next issue will be about Angel and Spike's backgrounds. Hopefully we'll get more info about Angel as Twilight.

May 16 2010 02:06 am #215nmcil

Sosa lola -

thanks for the text quotes - and I am sure that Twangel will be shown to be playing dual roles, one attempting to manipulate Voll. Amy, and his military and pursuing his own agenda with this mysterious Universe power. And what is this Omni verse that Giles speaks of? Riley could also be the connection between Twangel and Buffy with Twangel feeding him information. Riley could become the path that allows Angel/Twangel to give his personal agenda & perspective on why he assumes the Twilight persona.

I don't see how this is all going to work and still leave ID the creative freedom that the deserved since they were given the Angelverse franchise - the events of Season Eight have to impact that company and their writers. The only thing that I can think of to bring IDW into the sequence of events in the DarkHorse timeline is to write the big transition story. But isn't that what Joss Whedon is doing

May 28 2010 04:09 am #216Niori

Okay, so this is actually IDW Angel comics than season 8, but whatever.
I don't read the Angel comics (or the Buffy), but while laughing my ass off reading sockmonkeyhere's fiddlybits theatre (I think that's what it's called), I saw something that made me pause and go wtf...and then I came here to ask if it was true.
Is Illyria hitting on (or whatever word you can call it considering it's Illyria) on Connor?
For the love of God tell me it isn't true. lol

~ Niori ~

May 28 2010 05:43 am #217coalitiongirl

And to that, Niori, I give you this:

CONNOR: Hi. Um…I like your outfit.
ILLYRIA: Your body warms. This one is lusting after me.
CONNOR: Oh… no, I—I— It’s just that—it’s the outfit. I guess I’ve always had a thing for older women.
ANGEL: They were supposed to fix that!
CONNOR: What?
ANGEL: Nothing.

May 28 2010 05:49 am #218Niori

Seriously though, if the comics give the world more Conner sleeping with a possessed mother figure, I may just lose all hope in humanity. Conner/Cordelia was more than enough.

~ Niori ~

May 28 2010 06:06 pm #219nmcil

I loved this exchange with Illyria and Connor - and I don't think it was in any way meant to be Illyria "hitting on" Connor but was used to emphasis her non-human status and how easily she can read emotions and physical reactions. Was a clever way of having comedy and bringing in the history of Connor and Angel's reason for taking over W & H.

What that Willingham phase is going to do with all these I can't even begin to figure out - Connor and older masterful women, as you mentioned - already been done and who needs another go. But Illyria has seen Connor differently since he took out those three Uber strong demons, that is when he took on a lot more "desirable" quality, its all about his strength.

NICE set of images - thanks for showing them. It's nice to have images as reference.

May 28 2010 06:12 pm #220nmcil

Are all of the comics of at least the latest ones available as well?

HERE's the new comic, thanks to

moscow_watcher. NSFW, obviously.

Jun 06 2010 07:30 pm #221coalitiongirl

Wow, the S8 thread is off the front page! :( It's been too long...

Here's an interview with Scott Allie about the Serenity comics, and he also talks about S8-9.

Back at ECCC 2010, you stated that 2011 was going to be the year that Joss’ projects got some aggressive promoting. Other than the follow-up to Buffy Season 8, do Whedonverse fans have anything else to look forward to?

SA: Nothing I can say right now except that Season 9 is shaping up to be bigger than I’d imagined. I think we’ll be announcing a few things at San Diego, but nothing before then.

So… I guess we should talk about the up-coming Riley one-shot coming out in August. How did you guys decide that Riley’s story was the one worth telling?

SA: Quite simply, we needed something to fill the hole in the schedule, and we talked through a bunch of options, including a sequel to Goddesses and Monsters and another Tales of the Vampires oneshot, or even a two parter. We talked about an Angel/Twilight oneshot that would fill in some perspective on him. We were looking at things that needed some explanation or context at this point in the story, and we felt that Riley had some unanswered questions that we wanted to answer, and which would not be answered in the final arc. We didn’t want to retread ground covered in the other oneshots, and we didn’t want to deal with Angel too much outside the regular monthly—that’s the place for that info, for the most part. But that’s basically the thought process. We certainly didn’t say, Which character could we sell the most copies of, who are the fans really dying to see more of. We thought this served the overall story.

How did you arrive at the decision to have Jane Espenson write the Riley one-shot? What qualities do you see in Jane as a writer that makes her scripts work?

SA: If you have Jane Espenson’s phone number, you call Jane Espenson. I love working with Jane. She has all the qualities I want in a writer. I love her. I worship her. I can’t live without her.

Back in the day, you mentioned that a contender for the one-shot would have been a Tales of the Slayer-type story, possibly from either the perspective of a Slayer that was not enrolled in the Slayer army, or more interesting still, Simone, our resident pink mohawked troublemaker. Are these still stories that we’ll see one day, or is that door closed?

SA: This won’t happen within Season 8, but it’s all on the table still for Season 9. Simone won’t get dealt with in Season 8, but she won’t be forgotten.

Back to the Riley one-shot. CBR released some preview pages today, and they were quite intriguing. We first see Riley and Sam in some idyllic provincial area, cornfields and all (Iowa?), and then suddenly, there’s some kinda secret military base with a giant missile or something. The shock factor kinda feels like the Initiative, but on a grander scale. Which leads me to my question: Aside from covering the expected bases (i.e. what happened to Sam? How did Riley end up being a double-agent? etc), can we expect any shockers to unfold?

SA: I don’t wanna promise shockers, but it’s way more than a fun Mission: Impossible romp with Riley and Sam. It’s beautiful character stuff from Jane, and it does pull together some of the most important material in Season 8. For careful readers, there’s a lot to think about in the oneshot, in terms of the bigger themes and problems of Season 8. And there’s a character who’s never appeared before in Season 8, who I was happy to bring into it. I know some fans are gonna say, “Goddammit, you guys will shoehorn in EVERYONE but MY favorite character ________,” but what it came down to was that we had an empty space in the story that required a certain kind of character, and we talked about how to introduce such a figure, and realized there was someone who made perfect sense to have a small role in Season 8, in this one particular bit of business. We didn’t set out to reintroduce this character, this character just made too much sense.

I know I'd like to see a Twangel oneshot, and I'm stunned that they don't think it's absolutely necessary. And that other character? What do you think? Dru, maybe? No one else comes to mind who's still alive and would be the "only one" to fill a certain slot (like familiar vampire). Who else is still alive and around?

Jun 06 2010 09:17 pm #222coalitiongirl

Update from Whedonesque:

Super Scott Allie just confirmed to us that the last arc of season 8 penned by Joss Whedon will be called "Last Gleaming". Scott also told us exclusively, "We were originally going to call it 'Sunnydale' until Joss came up with this."

As in "The Twilight's Last Gleaming?" And the initial title makes #37's cover even more interesting...

Jun 07 2010 02:47 am #223nmcil

With all the stuff that has been happening to Buffy, and what I still think is an important part of this season for her character, I think that we might be seeing something like a "guide" for her also, the missing vital ingredient from this season and the TV Era would be the Guardians that introduced the Slayer Scythe.

This Riley one-shot was suppose to answer a lot of questions and since he has been working as a double agent, his story would give the opportunity to give more on the Buffy background story and what General Voll and how the military became involved. I can't see how Drusilla would have anything to do with this. Of all the characters that have had any connection at all with this part of the world in the are Riley, Sam, Lindsey, Angel/Angelus, and Oz and then there is the time the Scourge traveled in China. The Guardians seems like a vital element in the Magic and Power Players that have made huge and fundamental changes in the story of The Slayers.

It's a pity, but I don't have much faith in anything that Scott Allie tells the readers - I believe that marketing plays a big part in what DH chooses to give out in the "information game." Take the last interviews before this one and the references to the "Tales of the Slayers" - why bring that in and mention it as being so important if it was not intended as a 'marketing ploy" - get readers who have not yet purchased that product to go out and get it. Before Scott Allie said that Riley was not such an important character and would not be getting a lot more page space and now we have an entire issue devoted to him. What real importance does he have outside of answering vital information about how Twilight, General Voll, Warren, Amy and the military all came together? If this Riley One-Shot does not develop significantly this background story, why do we need it. I would much rather have had a one-shot with Giles, the Guardians and this mysterious new "slayer transformation" prophecy and the CofW background history.

Since the Spike "Devil You Know" mini series is coming out this month should we start a new thread for that series and for the Angelverse? I will scan and post the Promo Image for the Joss Whedon arc that is coming in September.

I like the title for Joss Whedon's concluding arc - but talk about setting up all the readers for Season 9 - Personally, another long comic book series is really not something that I am looking forward to.

Jun 07 2010 01:58 pm #224sosa lola

I heard S9 will be shorter with less characters and tighter. I hope so. Four years were so long. But you know, once S8 is over, we can sit down and read it all from beginning to end, I can see it flow much better that way. A lot of readers started rereading the season from the beginning and thought it worked better than when they used to wait a whole month for a new issue.

Jun 07 2010 11:57 pm #225nmcil

It would be great if we could all read the comics from the start - if there are some books missing from the online collections that some of the readers have graciously provided, if we got 4 people to help with scaning, we could do the missing issues - I know that there are also transcripts available at LJ. I don't mind helping to scan issues, but doing an entire issue alone takes a lot of time -

Jun 08 2010 12:15 am #226coalitiongirl

They're all here.

Jun 22 2010 07:07 pm #227nmcil

Anyone read the new Spike-Eddie Hope issue yet - the local retailer did not receive any copies or just did not bother to order any. They pretty much cut way down on the Whedonverse products.

Jun 22 2010 08:32 pm #228nmcil

Here is the preview for Angel #34 - Illyria has something very interesting to say about Connor -

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=5528&disp=table

All I can say is "poor Spike" - I keep waiting for all this character treatment to make some kind of sense - but so far, nada.

I still don't have my issue of the Spike-Eddie Hope - HOPE it comes in today - but really, it all feels like I am just holding on to all my Buffyverse and Angelverse love and wanting to keep those emotional ties. The current list of comic books just are not making that happen -

Especially since I watched "Just Rewards" and the great Spike that we see in that resurrection episode, it's a real heart ache to see what is being done with the character now. FUCK, Spike comes back out of the friggin amulet in total control of his Hero/Champion status. What the hell more is he suppose to need or want to make that clear - it's fucking canon that Spike willingly accepted the title, responsibilities and duty of a hero/Champion. If "Chosen" and his burning up cleansing soul power is not sufficient proof - he totally fights for and wins that status in "Destiny." What more do the writers need to understand that Spike has fought for and won the status of Hero/Champion? Now he has to try and buy his way into that? Even if we get another lame treatment of "third party intervention" - how many times can that premise be used. And if we get a exploration of Spike emotional life, it still puts the character is a really bad place - after all that he has been through, why would he still be so emotionally stunted and emasculated - LET THE MAN/VAMP finally grow up and find his full mantle of manhood and hero/champion status. Spike has earned it.

Jun 22 2010 09:29 pm #229Niori

So...after seeing Conner/Illyria, I feel very, very ill. It's like being forced to watch the ickiness that was Cordy/Conner all over again.

And really? I've pretty much given up on the hope that the offical comic writers of Buffyverse will treat the character of Spike the way he deserves. It seems to be impossible.

~ Niori ~

Jun 22 2010 11:22 pm #230ladycat713

Guest

Connor/Cordy was one of those things that actually made bile rise in my throat. It was completely Oedipal. Cordy was the closest thing he had to a mother. Add in that she was possessed by Jasmine in order to give birth to herself and it's incestuous for real.

The local shops are probably cutting down on the Whedonverse because eventually even the die hard fans stop purchasing bad product and they're in the business to make money.

Jun 23 2010 10:18 am #231sosa lola

Here's a very interesting essay about Buffy and sacrifice from S1 to S8. A must read.

[URL="http://local-max.livejournal.com/4206.html"]Becoming throughout the show[/URL]

Jun 23 2010 10:44 pm #232Ami

Hey guys, here's the sales figures for Buffy # 35

www.icv2.com/articles/news/17679.html

Buffy #35 went down to # 36 from last month and sold 463 less copies.

Jun 24 2010 05:13 am #233nmcil

Buffy comes in at No. 36 sales $45,446
Angel at No. 112 sales $17, 521

I had no idea that Buffy sold so much better than the Angelverse - what will be interesting is to see who the Spike - Devil You Know does. Unfortunately for Spike, the character had such a trashing by Willingham and this latest issue is not much better - MO, it is a really lame development and resolution of the Illyria-Connor breeding arc - and Spike gets more of the "dumbing down" treatment - To me, the entire issue is really lame, bordering on stupid. I just can't figure out who this writer thinks is reading these comics. Willingham even brought back the Spike in Hearts Shorts -

They continuing story of James The FAKE ANGEL and all these new characters might turn into something, same with the physical manifestations on people by Illyria's energy and the "Old Ones" might also be interesting. I don't have confidence that this writer can make it interesting for the new comic book readers.

While I was at the library yesterday I looked at the comic book section - I checked out the Neil Gaiman "The Sandman Endless Nights" one simple drawing my artist Milo Minara of the male character kissing and sucking on the nipple of the female was more erotic than all the cosmic sex that Buffy and Angel/Twangel treated the readers to.