First part of this discussion starts over at:  http://www.bloodshedverse.com/forum.php?go=read&no=24511

Starting this thread to discuss how the comic books are effecting the FF writers and readers.  Especially now, after all these years of Season 8 - how have the characters change for you.  And for the FF writers, has your passion and desire to create works about The Buffyverse been effected? 

As a reader, the stories that are being created for the comic book are a great disappointment - and I am looking to the FF writers to carry on the more intellectually and dramatic mature work - to explore these characters for how the reflect more the "real world" than the genre of "comic books"  - 

Interesting conversation! (And thank you Sensei for the shoutout. :) )

As a writer, I've loved what the comics have done for fanfiction. I enjoy the comics very much- with some exceptions that were mostly faux pas on the part of the writing staff, and not the storyline- and I've been mostly satisfied with how they've played out. The comics have inspired me to write quite a bit, and while I don't enjoy the medium, it lends itself to more "missing scenes" fic and thoughts of what might have been. Mostly, though, as a latecomer to fandom, I like writing in unexplored country, which is nearly impossible to find in the Spuffyverse, and I love how the fandom comes alive each month when a new comic comes out.

I only hear about the comics storylines from my friends, and it's a small group of them that's still reading, so I've been mostly oblivious to the fandom turmoil.

I haven't done much fic in a long time. I still read Spuffy from authors I can trust are really good, but I don't have as much RL time as I used to, and I'm trying to get my own original stories off the ground. I did start a story in Angel's POV for the end of season 3, Nmcil - a "what if Buffy succeeded in killing Faith, bringing her body back, and made him drink from it" tale. I'm hoping I can get around to finishing my WIPs in 2011.

Angel the Series has its own fans and that's where you could probably fine the mature and in-depth tales you'd like. Few Spuffy fans/writers are Angel fans, and especially understand/like him enough to want to explore/include him. I've done some and I do like Angel, though I don't have interest in looking at those series comics, either, so it all sprouts from the shows.

Once the season 8 comics turned into crack!fic, I have had a hard time relating to the fans that expect Joss to turn out quality like the shows. He's an ego that needs a network and the physical medium to put constraints on him. He obviously doesn't even care to keep to the canon of his own show. Why get upset over just comics? Yes, he looks ridiculous to the public with these things, but it's a much smaller audience than the TV shows. It's not going to be talked about in mainstream media. And anyone that is new who actually likes these comics and wants to check out the shows is going to like the shows even more.

I've known not to trust Joss for many years and I never considered him a TV god, anyway.....you're only disappointed with someone falling off a pedestal when you put them on the pedestal in the first place.

That said - If you think the comics are great and you see hope that Joss will give you what you want, great. Be happy. I won't take that from anyone.

I agree with Caro above. I learned not to trust Joss either.  I was disappointed when no one on his shows was allowed to "live happily ever after" because Joss doesn't seem to realize that most people really do get to be happy in real life.   Then when he killed Wash (and Rev. Book, too) in such a meaningless, senseless way, I realized he must  have a destructive personality.  He seems to glory in upsetting fans and get perverse pleasure in shocking them and making life a  negative experience.   I didn't allow myself to get as emotionally involved with the characters on Dollhouse because I didn't trust him to do right by them.  I don't even consider the comics as part of BtVS or AtS canon because the forums make them sound too off-the-wall.  (I admit, however, that I'd love to know how he solved the dilemma Spike and Angel were in at the end of NFA if anyone wants to tell me.  Do you think the comics had a plausible explanation?)
 
I do trust the fanfic writers!  You have stayed more true to the vision than Joss has. I turn to fanfic because you keep the people in the Buffyverse (both BtVS and AtS)  in character and have generally  positive overtones without all that gratuitous death.   So I hope you'll keep writing--especially stories that don't include the comics as canon.

Isn't this "crossroads" kind of time - a very good thing for the FF writers - would they want to push themselves even more to write about these characters - there are so many things that the season comic have introduced.  I don't suggest that stories need to be about what has happen in Season 8 but there are sure a whole lot of potential themes and subject that could be taking off points.  With how the series is now going back to the destroyed crater and with some kind of life that that seems to have continued to effect the area or all this new potential material with the Bangel relationship having possible been manipulated from the start -
Season 8 has now introduced the theme of the origins of the Hellmouths.  Faith and Giles have now become a new relationship - I am still waiting for the FF writers to take up The Covens and have that part of the Buffyverse explored.

I just recently read the "Imitation Of A Man" - which was such an excellent novel length work that featured William - but with such a different treatment of the character and a really hard look at Buffy's closed off mind and how that caused so much sorrow for all of them. 

I've noticed that there seem to be a lot more "human fantasy" works now - so the writers must want to keep working with these characters - they just want to have a lot more freedom.  Spike, especially needs to be taken up right now - The character seems so "up in the air"  It like once the "After The Fall" and the "Return of Hell" - the comic book writers don't seem to know what to do with him.  We need the Spuffy writers to keep Spike and Buffy alive in the FF stories - as it seems that the comic book writers are determined to have the character become involved with other women -  Hell the cover for the issue 5 of the new Spike series has Spike and Willow all sexy looking together -  and they are clearly made it a point to state the age of this Beck character away from the young girl to 22 year young woman now.   A story of Buffy and Spike going in search of his missing soul is surely something that would make a great Spuffy story.

One thing that Spuffy needs is for the writers to feel free enough to introduce new characters  -  I enjoyed very much the reworking of "Rebecca" with Buffyverse characters. 

I hate to think that the Buffyverse FF community is going to start a big decline just because the comic books and Season 8 have introduced these new elements - It just seems to me that all this would bring a new excitement for the FF writers with so many new things to draw from.

That story of  Buffy actually killing Faith, that sounds like one hell of a theme to write about with a Buffy - Spike.  And, Angelus in Sunnydale, I personally love reading about that period of the Buffyverse. 

Personally, I'm asking myself at what point does continuing to mine the Spuffy characters and themes or even the BTVS universe become a little ridiculous?  I don't want to turn out to be an old lady going to Buffy conventions like some of the fans who have clung to the Dark Shadows show after all these decades.  Admittedly, Buffy is a lot better.

I love the show, but I think we could use some new juice with a movie or a new show or something.  The comics just haven't been good enough to carry the ball.  I can't imagine spending a year writing a novel based on any of the silly garbage they've been churning up in the comics.  

And, yet, my book store stopped carrying Buffy and I complained today.  I am pathetic.  :)

I know what mean on the "getting too many years of Buffyverse Time"  that is one of the reason that I think that new works with new characters and developing individual skills can infuse a renewed interest - not just to keep Spuffy alive, but as a way for the FF writers to develop their skills. 

One thing that the comic book did do for me, is make me realize that I have invested too much of my personal time that should be spent on my artwork and getting back to reading at the same level that I used to - pre Buffyverse Life. 

Nmcil, so far the story is an approach of Angel dealing with what Buffy did re: killing Faith for him, the guilt even though he didn't comit the act, etc., and his new viewpoint on who Buffy has become and what happens to her because of her action. I don't think it'll go into Buffy's POV and there's little reason to bring Spike into this one.

I've written all the main characters from both shows at some level, and I started with Spike/OC at a time I didn't like Buffy at all, so for me personally, I don't need to write Spuffy only to continue fandom. I like pursuing Spike and Angel's eventual friendship, and even Evil Spike. I hope to see more of the new writers try out all the characters......they all have worth to explore, and things to teach you as a writer (if you can put personal prejudices aside).

Spikez_tart - I'd like to see someone do a good movie, or even a show, with a new Slayer and her life....and not just basically a clone of Buffy or Faith, but a genuinely unique personality and how she explores her Slayer life. That'd make things interesting without getting fans panties in a wad by trampling over existing canon/characters.

*nods at CM and Tart*  The only way I can imagine enjoying a movie or new show is with new characters.  Seven years of watching the ones we know would make it impossible for me to accept anyone else in those roles. I think that's part of my problem with the comics - it's hard to take them seriously when I can't recognize the people I know. Either physically, because the drawing sucks and changes too often, or as characters because they are not behaving the way I would expect them to.  However, I enjoyed the Fray comics (not to be confused with Buffy's brief appearance in Fray's world) and I can see myself enjoying other forms of entertainment set in the world of vampires and slayers as long as they were well-realized, complex characters.

Frayverse would be a great new way to continue the Slayerverse on TV -

I would love to have the link for your Buffy killed Faith story -  if not allowed to post the link here could you please send me the link - thanks

I wonder how the avid supporters of Bangel can deny the very visual statement on the mirror when Buffy is looking at herself - LOST is right there on the mirror -

make me realize that I have invested too much of my personal time that should be spent on my artwork  - so true nmcil.  I sometimes wonder what I did with myself before I had the computer to play with and Buffy to watch.  There must have been something? 

A Frayverse movie would be cool.  Don't see enough there for an extended series,   Maybe a mini series or something. 

I'm not sure how I'd feel about someone else playing Buffy et al.  I like the guy who plays Spike on Buffybetweenthelines, so maybe it would be cool.  New (younger) actors could bring in a whole new generation.  JM could play the watcher.  :)  Considering how many tv shows get recycled, it's just a matter of time until somebody gets around to it.

Nmcil, it's not posted anywhere, yet, but i'll let you know when it is. I wanted to finish it first.

Caro mio

Looking forward to reading it -

Season Eight made me write my first Spuffy fic.  So yay. :)

as characters because they are not behaving the way I would expect them to.

They'll only act the way we expect them to in our fics.  With canon it's a different matter.  Characters do and say all kinds of things we don't expect.  That's when you know it's canon.  Seriously, there's no OOC moment like in Empty Places when the writers completely trashed all the characters to make Buffy look good.

I always thought The ep STSP could have benefitted from finding out that Kennedy had deliberately and sneakily been stirring things up so that a mutiny could be started and Buffy would basically be thrown out to die. The endgame of her doing that would be because her attitude of etitlement made her think she would then be the next Slayer.

After that was found out , it could be said to her that her plan had one major flaw in that the Slayer line doesn't run through Buffy, it runs through Faith.

I mean entitlement not etitlement.

the Slayer line doesn't run through Buffy, it runs through Faith. - yes, it's just possible that Kennedy is too stupid to figure that out.  I would have liked that twist.

Dawn (the little ingrate) was involved in kicking her sister to the curb in S7 for which she was never punished, so it would be only fitting if she gets the axe now.

Using Dawn was so lame - I can see the logic since she is the only other character who was part of the Summers Family - but the whole thing seem completely forced.  The idea of Kennedy stirring up Willow and going from Willow out to the other characters would have been a good alternative.  For dramatic impact, it really needed to come from the core group - Anya was a very good selection to be the first to throw out the "why you question"  with the best friends Xander and Willow doing the real damage - the next step up the revolt ladder goes to the other adult, Robin then sending over to Faith who got entangled into the show down with Buffy to the final betrayal by Dawn. 

I can't complain too much about the whole thing, it gave us the wonderful  Buffy-Spike full circle of  giving back strength and life spirit to the other when they needed it to continue to fight for their life and their warrior/heroes path.  Plus, we also got to have the great scene with Andrew and Spike at the mission.

 I enjoy the new comics if only because it is a form of continuation for the BtVS verse. I like the idea of Buffy continuing to have some kind of relevance to new audiences even after the television show ends. And I don't mind being an old lady and still loving Buffy and the other characters. That said, I think the comics are shoddy, yet that is why FF writers perhaps get the best inspiration. I always love a season six story that smacks away all the self loathing into something productive and doesn't end with the pathetic twist of 'seeing red'. 

Joss has betrayed a lot of fans in trying to kill the joy of his various shows. I tried to watch Dollhouse, but could no longer invest myself after knowing that it had been cancelled. Now that he is in the movie business for the avengers (not sure if that's the correct name) I think that FF writers must carry the torch. Star Trek is popular partly because the series is revitalised in several forms (TV, books, comics, movies). I expect that Buffy will be much the same. I started writing again after a two year hiatus. It isn't because I have nothing better to do but because I care about the characters despite how much they get trashed. I think the comics at least expose them to a new audience. And more people means more fanfiction, which really is never a bad thing.

the next step up the revolt ladder goes to the other adult, Robin  - don't forget Giles - the biggest betrayer of all.  he puts his two cents in as well.  Why does Buffy put up with this pack of leeches and ingrates?

I meant Empty places not STSP  I was tired and switched the titles in my head because both have place in the title.

I can't complain too much about the whole thing, it gave us the wonderful  Buffy-Spike full circle of  giving back strength and life spirit to the other when they needed it to continue to fight for their life and their warrior/heroes path. 

I still find it lazy and bad writing.  Buffy and Spike can still have powerful scenes without ruining every single character in the show that wasn't them.  I'd have liked it better if Xander and Willow were still in the hospital when it happened, or maybe just let us understand why Dawn and the others did what they did.  Let us get into their head and thoughts, understand their point better, see some guilt at least.  The characters suffered a lot of neglect from the writers, and if they were going to use them as betrayers, at least respect the seven years they were there by Buffy's side and show us why they decided to betray Buffy, not treat them like background characters.

No matter how many times fans try to show us that the episode was a debate where both sides are right and wrong, the way the writers wrote Empty Places and Touches makes it obvious that Buffy = right, everybody else = wrong.

They problem with the episode was that it comes off as a total filler episode so that Buffy and Spike have the resolution to all their misery in Season 6  and to give a justification for introducing the Slayer Scythe. 

Talk about a fanciful bit of writing - after all these years you get The Guardians introduced - such an important element in the Buffyverse Origins and The Guardians come and go in a flash.   Watcher Giles never knew a thing about The Guardians, and in Season 8 he talks all about this mysterious Slayer prophecy and was so Huge in the history of  the CoW, that an entire group of them commit suicide over it.  He gives the slayer that lecture about how friggin long the CoW has existed, but they never knew about The Guardians?  how does that happen?  Now the whole thing with "the seed" which was thought to be only a myth yet it is running the whole Buffyverse Realm and responsible for the Earth's origins.  I don't like to criticize,  I am not a writer and don't  feel qualified to play the critic, but the introduction of all these elements without any back story and any new information about The Guardians and their  Magical Scythe of Great Power plot, feels like things are just being thrown in to service their story without any logical connections.

I am very glad to see that you have gotten back into writing Buffyverse FF - 

Season 8 is such a peculiar new  version of the Buffyverse - I rented "Reign Of Fire" after trying to figure out what the "Anywhere But Here"  how the Christian Bale Actors panel might connected - it was such a strange one panel insertion in the middle of the issue.  Season 8 certainly parallels the film in many elements - pretty much just about everything from Season 8 is in this film. 

They problem with the episode was that it comes off as a total filler episode so that Buffy and Spike have the resolution to all their misery in Season 6  and to give a justification for introducing the Slayer Scythe. 

Exactly.  That's why both episodes didn't work for me at all.  I can appreciate the Spuffy but not on the expense of the other characters.

I don't see those eps so black and white as "everybody but Buffy was wrong". Fact is, few of them had been acting in the best way to win that war for a while. Buffy was right about there being something in Caleb's possession, but the way she'd been managing the group and the Slayers was flawed. I don't agree with them voting her out of the house at all, or in her agreeing to leave, but the argument before that, about Buffy's battle plans needing better planning.....well, yeah. Buffy's big flaw in that war was that she was so scared she lost confidence in herself, and there's so much she could have won all on her own if she just had the backbone to do it. I could start quoting Yoda if you want. 

Her approach was all wrong tactically as well as other ways.

Everyone ends up going by the info they have available, but they 1) underestimated Caleb's deviousness, and 2) the above paragraph. The First wanted everyone tense, paranoid, not trusting each other, etc., and etc., and that's what it got. They're easier to kill when they're not united.

But really, Buffy had the skills and experience to take care of the problem (as she demonstrates when she got the scythe). Her mistake is that she tries to be a general instead of doing what the Slayer was made for - using her tools and training to succeed alone. Cuz ultimately, it's the Slayer against the Evil.

So really, the eps do an excellent job of highlighting how much fear will make you fail. The characters only get anything done when they act despite the fear for the whole end of the season.

The thing with Buffy being the general is that it was Giles and the others who wanted her to be one. If Giles had taken charge of the troops and just let Buffy be the Slayer then things would have been better. Season 8 has continued the mistake of Buffy the general and she really isn't qualified to be in charge of more than herself with perhaps a partner to help her.

What was missing and could have been easily attended to was the conversation between the inner circle characters and including Giles regarding their concerns over strategy.  The episode would have worked easily with that discussions having been shown.  Buffy has always had to deal with victims and potential victims - she had never really had to be the leader and ultimate responsible person for the lives of other warriors.  The Scoobies filled another role model, more like willing family, who chose to become her fellow warriors.  The Potentials were such a different element, they were total strangers and some had not even been recognized as Pontentials much the same as Buffy.  Being responsible for the safety and life of another person is a huge burden - and one that Buffy had no training for - that was something the Giles should have been taking on along side Buffy and Faith. 

Buffy could barely take care of her own emotional life, was really only starting to grow into her role as an adult woman - to all of a sudden have to take care of all these young teenage girls, train them and be the adult in charge - it was too much. 

Getting back to the episode - it was just to quick, IMO, to go from Xander's "Buffy is great and deserves your trust" to the confrontation over leadership.  Plus Buffy was in big time personal distance mode as a defensive mechanism - we see that in how she reacts to Xander & Willow at the hospital, she just wants to not have to feel all that pain and responsibility.  Unfortunately she has no option for not being General Buffy, that's why she lashes out at Faith for taking the young girls out, same with Spike.  There was very little in Buffy's background and training to have her assume the role of head leader in charge of a group of soldiers.  Actually, Graduation and her struggle with The Mayor is the only time that any large scale operations take place inSunnydale.  Slayerhood in Sunnydale has always been a very private affair.   

I always thought Faith taking the girls out was pretty dumb. Not that it was dumb to take the girls out but that it was dumb for Faith to be the one to take them. Faith went to a location that a lot of people frequented (including possibly off duty cops ) in a town where she was known as a killer after escaping from federal prison.

Probably the local police that would be highest priority to notify would be the ones from where Faith would have relatives, her last known residence (aka the scene of the crime) and the ones in the town where she escaped from prison.

It was incredibly dumb for her to go out and party in that situation especially considering that it was shown that people were getting more and more wound up in the days leading up to the mass exodus from town.