BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

The "We Hate Buffy" club

Feb 08 2007 07:16 pm   #1ZoeGrace

Often, when someone doesn't like Buffy's actions or think she's being "immoral or wrong" someone says:  "Why do you even read spuffy if you hate buffy so much?"

Who says we hate Buffy?  Just because I dislike Buffy's actions in certain places in canon and just because I don't like Buffy's actions in some fanfic, it doesn't mean I "hate" Buffy.

On some level I don't really think canon Buffy even "deserves" Spike.  She treated  him BADLY.  And I don't care that he was a vampire and evil blah blah blah.  He wasn't very evil by his own culture's standards.  He was just being a vampire.  

Humans aren't evil for eating cheeseburgers.  Why should a vampire be empirically "evil" for eating what is natural for them to eat?  Sorry, but for vampires, people are a food group.  The insistence that they are therefore "evil" seems to me, just being upset that you aren't at the top of the food chain anymore. 

If I'm out in the woods and get mauled by a bear, was the bear evil?  No, he was just being a bear.  Spike was just being a vampire.  Buffy knew this fact about both Angel and Spike and chose to get involved with both of them anyway.  So once she DOES choose to get involved with them, she cannot then hold it against them for not being human.  She knew they weren't human. 

So a lot of the time I don't think Buffy deserves Spike, both in canon and in fanfic.  So then, why do I write primarily Spuffy?  Because I don't hate her and whether she deserves him or not, she NEEDS him.  Spike is the only one that can truly give her what she needs, IMO.

He has enough love for both of them, all she has to do is open up a TINY little bit.  She can grow to deserve his love, but initially her behavior says that she doesn't deserve it.  She shouldn't be automatically entitled to it either just because she's a good and "moral" human and he's a bad "evil" vampire.

I don't think Buffy is evil, nor do I hate her, but I do think she could stand to grow up a little.  Insisting on living in a world of black and white when everything around you is gray only makes your road harder.

I've also heard the arguments about..."well Buffy's had a hard road, look at all that's happened to her, she was just a child when she became the slayer, she has all that responsibility..." 

For one thing I don't buy that her life has been ripped from her.  Buffy has always rebelled against the council and done things her own way.  And also she LIKES being the slayer.  She might bitch about it and play the martyr but without her powers she would be adrift.  In season 3, "Helpless" it became very clear that she might bitch about her lot in life, but she doesn't TRULY wish to be a normal girl.  Otherwise she wouldn't have freaked so much when it started to happen.  Also in season six's "normal" she refuses the reality where she's just a sick girl and can be normal, in favor of the world where she's the slayer.

By season six when she does most of what she does she's 21.  She's an adult.  You cannot continually blame your crappy childhood for your behavior.  At some point you have to admit when you yourself are becoming the monster you seek to fight.

Feb 08 2007 07:28 pm   #2Jenna

Well, I definatly don't hate Buffy.

Season six Buffy was trying to grow up in a world that had changed dramatically around her. I am not condoning her actions toward Spike, but you have to think of the factors. Her mother died not too long before she did, then she was ripped out of heaven by her friends. That is enough to screw anyone up. Spike tried to help her, but she couldn't see that.

 

Season seven Buffy, in my oppinion, was much better. She had time to reflect and forgive everything that she had done, and everything that had been done to her. She risked her life, on more than one occasion to save Spike. She loved him.

 

Even the slip of "Why does everyone thing I'm still in love with Spike?"

 

Buffy and Spike were the endgame, no matter how bumpy the game was.

Spike: You're the one, Buffy

Buffy: I don't want to be the one.

Spike: I don't want to be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear.
Feb 08 2007 07:32 pm   #3DreamsofSpike

I agree with you on most points in this post, Zoe...I don't hate Buffy, but she's clearly far from perfect. I agree that in canon, she really didn't deserve Spike -- but that's simply because even as a vampire, Spike loved with a whole-hearted generosity that Buffy had a hard time accepting from him.

She couldn't appreciate what he had to offer, because she couldn't bring herself to believe that he could really offer it.

I think that we dont really want perfect heroes and heroines in fiction. Their flaws, their weaknesses, the things that make them like us, are the things that make them interesting. I agree with you, Buffy *needs* Spike, even if she doesn't deserve him -- and that's why I spend a lot of time in my fic "teaching her her lesson" so to speak, getting her to come around in ways she never did in canon.

As for my current fic, the one in question, and the basic idea going around that Buffy should not be forgiven at all by Spike for her "betrayal" with Xander...I really disagree with that idea.

Here's the thing -- she did a very stupid thing with the whole plan and all -- but by not automatically accepting Xander's guilt, I don't think she was betraying Spike. That's her *best friend* there, and we all love Spike, so it's easy to say "She's bad! Stone her!"

Except - think of *your* best friend -- apply the situation -- and decide if you think it'd be so easy. Compound that by the fact that *her* best friend saved her life several times and the world at least once.

In short, yes, she did a lot of things wrong or stupid in the situation.

Should Spike never forgive her and run away with Angel?

Even if it were possible for Spike to do that -- I think not.

Feb 08 2007 08:26 pm   #4Guest

My feelings about Buffy tend to be pretty negative, but for different reasons than the ones given so far, so here goes:

Canon Buffy: I do think vampires are evil.  They choose to eat rational beings, when we know that they could drink the blood of animals (as both Spike and Angel end up doing).  The difference between a bear and a vampire is that a bear does not know it's eating a rational creature when it eats a human and a vampire does (the vampire knows it can talk to its victims).  Buffy is right to want to have nothing to do with Spike when he is an evil vampire.  And I don't blame her for that rejection.  On the contrary, to me she wouldn't be a hero if she didn't reject evil, per se.  The problem is that he clearly starts to change.  As a hero, a defender of the good, she should be prepared to help him into the light.  And she doesn't.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  In season 6, she works hard to keep him in the dark -- to allow him no room for the growth and change he is clearly showing he is capable of.  And she's doing it for bad reasons -- cause Spike's ability to change reflects badly on Angel; cause it complicates her job if she has to wonder how many other redeemable vampires she has slain without thinking, etc.  It makes her life simpler to keep Spike in a safe box labelled evil -- and it is evil to prevent a person from trying to become good.  Worse, she's so self-righteous about the whole thing.  The Scoobies, of course, are all terrible on this as well.

Buffy in season 7 is definitely growing up.  And its easier to liker her.  Or better put, we see enough to think that there is hope for her.  I wish she'd do more apologizing for her own bad behavior, and I wish she'd admit more clearly that Spike's drive toward the light began before the soul.  But I think for her, believing in Spike, standing up for him and so on is a de facto apology, and he certainly doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Buffy in BHNM -- I don't see the desire to not kill Xander as a betrayal of Spike.  The vengence was going to destroy them, and she's right to want to prevent that destruction.  As for whether Spike should forgive the earlier betrayal -- for me it's not so much a matter of forgiving or not.  It's a matter of deciding whether he wants to love a woman who really and truly (thus far) does not love him.  She has revealed her heart in her actions and her heart just isn't moved to care for him when the rubber hits the road.  Maybe he'll settle for that.  But I want more for him.  I want someone who wants to prevent him from being traumatized rather than someone who is willing to deliberately traumatize him (leaving him alone with Xander) in order to pursue some end of her own.  This Buffy isn't being mean to him because she doesn't want to face the implications of what that love means (as  in canon).  This Buffy just isn't registering concern for him because he just doesn't register with her as an object of concern.  Spike deserves to be loved.  Pending some big development in the story, this Buffy cannot give him what he deserves.  He can forgive her for not treating him well... I just don't want him to settle for a relationship in which he is not truly cared for... where he ranks about #25 on her list of real concerns.  Try it this way -- part of the reason that I know that B7 Buffy is on her way to really loving Spike is that in one episode where Xander has been hurt, she still runs to check on Spike first.  She thereby reveals that Spike is really in her heart.  In this story, Spike is really not in her heart.

It's just a disagreement, hon.  And I still say kudos to you for writing a story that provokes so much conversation.  You've got a lot of moral and emotional issues in play, and so you get a variety of responses.  Thanks!

Maggie

Feb 08 2007 08:46 pm   #5Guest

I don't hate Buffy but i really really don't like her alot of the time. She's a bitch to Spike when all he wants to do is love her. All she ever thinks about is herself.

I think saying Spike isn't evil he's just a vampire is definately true. I mean he's not like most vampires, he didn't like to torture his people or draw out their deaths. He just did what he needed to survive.

Look at it this way, we eat pudding; which is pigs blood by choice. We don't need it to survive but we eat it anyways.  Spike been written off as evil because he eats what he needs to survive.

   aoife

Feb 08 2007 09:05 pm   #6ZoeGrace

DoS I don't really view Xander as Buffy's best friend, Willow's maybe, but Xander's crush on Buffy pretty much prohibits a deep friendship and I think she's always kept him somewhat at arm's length because of that.

They're friends, but not, IMO best friends.  Also by the time we get to the end of season six, Buffy and Xander have already really drifted, he's butting his nose in where it doesn't belong and judging her choices of mate (largely because it's a vampire rather than him.)

So I just don't see them as having anything that deeply meaningful.  I always felt that friendship, and most of the scooby friendships were pretty shallow.  Window dressing.

Really good points Maggie. I can see your view on "vampires are rational" whereas bears are not.  Still humans are a food source, but yeah I agree with you that while Spike's all out being evil that Buffy shouldn't be all "oh, but he's just being a vampire" lol. She's the slayer.

But really great points though, and very well articulated, I agree with a whole lot of what your saying.

Oh also, one other comment in reference to: "Vampires can choose to eat animals" (I believe that was mentioned in this thread.) Yes, and people can choose to be vegetarians.  It doesn't mean people aren't on the menu for vamps in general or that meat isn't on the menu for most people.  There are some people that think meat eating is wrong.  So it's really a wide scale of morality here and I don't think we should assume that a vampire to not be "evil" should just eat animals because they can.

I could survive on no meat, but I'm not giving it up.  Even if cows think I'm evil.
Feb 08 2007 11:09 pm   #7GoldenBuffy

I basically agree with you Zoe (everyone most likely figured that,lol). Buffy does need Spike. But my question is does Spike need Buffy? Or does he only believe he does? I mean, I don't agree with S5 Angel, where he told Spike not to contact Buffy. But Spike is Spike, like he wouls actually listen to his Sire. But he did and he stayed away from Buffy, didn't even call. Do you think that on some level he knew or believe that despite her sayong she loved him, he doubted her. That he can be without her in his life.

As far as BHNM, I agree with Maggie. I don't want Spike settling for Buffy. I want him to find someone who really cares and loves him. Right now I stand with the fact that Buffy does not love him. Yes, she may care deeply for him. 'Cause let's face it. I don't care how much she protested that she hated him, she was having sex with him, and yes that could have been a weapon. But as a woman, you're going to develop feelings for the person your sleeping with. Hell, you had to have some kind of feelings towards the person in the postitive in the first place before you opened your legs to him. So, yes, she careds deeply for him, but he's not someone whom she holds that close to want to care and keep him safe. I love this story, but for me right now. Dawn and Angel and even Anya are showing more love towards our fav. vamp than the Slayer. I mean, I'm all for hot naked Spangel lovin' ROFL. I just would love to see Buffy redeem herself in Spike's eyes. Make her have to bend over backwards for his love for a change. But I'm looking foward to see where you take this.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 08 2007 11:48 pm   #8ZoeGrace

Yes, can he hook up with Anya?  Those are two broken souls who need each other.

Feb 09 2007 12:37 am   #9Verda

I don't "hate" Buffy. I've hated things that she's done to Spike, ways she's treated him but I don't "hate" the character. Does she deserve Spike...No! I started watching BtVS because of thecharacter, I like the character and the writing of the show.  It wasn't until I saw the deepths of his feeling for her and the potential that was there for them that my feeling towards the character changed. Her actions towards him, is what turned me off of her character. I still would have a little against the character because of the Holier-then-Thou attitude Joss had given her.  If he didn't love her, I wouldn't want him with her. As a matter of fact if Tara wasn't gay, I'd like to see him with this loving and gentle soul. But he loves Buffy, so that's who I want him to be with. For me it's been "all about Spike" for a long time now.

Feb 09 2007 12:44 am   #10Guest

I never want(ed) Spike to settle for Buffy, either. I didn't have a problem with him staying in L.A. when it became clear that he was trying to decide something for himself for a change. He'd lived for years trying to do what other people wanted of him, and now he had choices......and he chose the "good fight", which he knew he was capable of doing, over running to Buffy, again, where he didn't know for sure that he'd be wanted.

If I'd been Spike's friend watching his life in Sunnydale, and then on to L.A., I'd have been cheering him on once he started making his own life. I'd be saying "It's about damn time, man." Doesn't mean that he loved Buffy any less, but he needed to be someone other than her puppy.

GB, I definitely think he doubted that Buffy loved him in the same way he did her. She waited until they both knew he was dying. Now, Spike probably knows that Buffy doesn't say those words, because they're hard for her, unless she means them.....but, how did she mean them? He'd basically become her best friend by the end of S7, so she could easily been saying it from that perspective. And "best friend" isn't enough for Spike to go to her and risk having his heart gutted, again. And I also agree on BHNM, too.

Caro Mio

Feb 09 2007 12:57 am   #11ZoeGrace

True Verda, sometimes the only way I can look at Buffy and not be angry with her as a character is when I look at her through Spike's eyes and see what he sees.  IMO he redeems her.  If not for Spike I wouldn't have kept watching the show.

Feb 09 2007 01:29 am   #12Guest

Yeah, the problem with Buffy, and the Scoobies', actions is that they don't hold up merit over time. When I watched the show when it was running, I didn't think too much about what was going on....other than understanding how it feels to be depressed and feel lost, cuz been there done that. It wasn't until season 7 that I got into it enough that there were things I wanted to happen....some did, some didn't. And I was hopelessly hooked on Spike by then. So, when the show ended, we got just enough Spuffy nods that i was all for it, and hoped there would be some moment or mention in Angel, though it wasn't crucially necessary. I would be there for Spike either way.

But then, you get to reading fanfic, and discussing the characters' actions with other fans, and thinking about the show.......and boy, is it a lot harder to view the Scoobies in the same light. Now, I try to write as fairly as possible and show that they all had good and bad points, but on the show......well, even Buffy's voice annoys me now, LOL. Even my boyfriend, who watched the show, but that's where his involvement ended, agrees that the Scooby group didn't really grow, and barely learned. And that's what makes it hard to like Buffy at times.

She had plenty of opportunities to grow and learn, and only just started doing it at the very end. To a visible point. Spike said he saw the best and worst of her.....Well, what exactly was so striking about the "best", so alluring, that he loves her in spite of all the ugliness within, too? I suppose there's potential for her to become someone you could admire by the time she's 30, but at 22? For me, she wouldn't be one of those friends that I love anyway despite their faults. I couldn't have standed being around her without opening my mouth and calling her, and all of them, on the crap.

They just didn't end up that likeable once we knew all that was inside.

So I guess the moral of my tale is never analyze your favorite show after the fact - you'll probably be disappointed! :D

Caro Mio

Feb 09 2007 05:03 am   #13ZoeGrace

I think Spike was largely attracted to her vulnerability.  He's a caretaker.  He took care of his mum when he was human and then he spent all that time taking care of Dru.  It's all he knows how to do.  So he finds this girl who is damaged in the ways that Buffy is and he's drawn to her, partially because she is someone he can "take care of."  That's my opinion anyway.

I'm not saying he purposefully went out thinking "hmmm who has some vulnerability that I can fall in love with?"  I just think he's unconsciously drawn to her for that reason.

And also he's drawn to strong women.  Despite vulnerabilities the women he is drawn to (harmony doesn't count cause he wasn't actually drawn to her, she was just a rebound lay) are strong.  He's attracted to the slayer thing, etc.

He's also probably attracted to her intelligence and sense of humor, because he has a similar quippy fighting style, so these two banter and that's instant chemistry for him.

And yeah, I agree with your analyzing assessment lol.  I mean yes, heros and heroines must be flawed, it's what makes them human, real, and likeable.  BUT...there is only so flawed you can go before you're dealing with a group of antiheroes instead of heroes.

And that's what I think the characters on Buffy largely were, antiheroes.  The only character who truly took anything close to the classical "hero's journey" was Spike.  And that is why at the end of everything, IMO, he's so much more likeable than almost every other character on that show.

Feb 09 2007 10:05 am   #14Guest

Those reasons are very accurate for the attraction....I just had to wonder why he *stayed* in love with her, you know? Because Buffy did enough to him, that it's the kind of forgiveness and unconditional love a parent would show, but not a romantic partner...

But then again, I guess she gave him *just* enough in return that he could remain "fixated" until he was out of her sphere........and I think by the end of AtS, that if a more "deserving" woman had come along, his romantic interest probably could have been swayed. Cuz I think even Spike wasn't a 100% sure she was his life mate....

Caro Mio

Feb 09 2007 02:15 pm   #15The Space Between

Its so easy to victimize Buffy for all of the things she did wrong concerning Spike, but lets face it, they have more in common than they know.

Neither of them have had any sort of decent role model for a relationship. She never had a real relationship that went with the good and the bad and showing the work it took to have one. All of Buffy's relationships fell apart for one reason or another; every man in her life leaving her  and just like you and I, we'd be seriously gun-shy about getting involved again, just as she was.  Every guy in her life has given her reasons to have serious trust issues. And I know damn well if there was a man who killed thousands of people, none of you would want to talk to him, let alone date him.

[siderant -Yeah, yeah Vampires need blood to survive. Plenty of ways to get blood without resorting to the killing or torturing of people, especially children. Don't want to eat animals? Fine. Have a few sips of persons A, B and C and you will be nicely full without killing anyone. Don't blame a vamp for being a vamp and doing what comes naturally but I do blame those that take pleasure in the killing and in the torture and in instilling fear and horror because it makes the blood more 'spicy'. When its done like that, then its not killing for food. Its killing for sport. You dont go out and torture cows and do your level best to scare the daylights out of them just so you can make a hamburger. Now back to the similarities with he and Buffy...]

Like Buffy, Spike has never had a real relationship. As a human he was treated like crap, only having his Mum for companionship. After his turning he had Dru who was not only mental but someone who'd drop him like a bad habit whenever the thought of Daddy coming back got her skirts in a twitter.

Don't forget, Buffy tried repeatedly to get through to Spike to leave her alone...that she wasn't interested him in that way but he never left well enough alone. He continued to pursue her no matter what she said or did, even going as so far to disinvite him from her home.

There was an attraction there. We all saw it and they knew it too but attraction isn't enough to build a relationship upon and Buffy knew that and did her best to discourage it.

In some ways, Spike knew what he was getting into. He knew she was messed up and in a bad place emotionally and he knew what being in a relationship with an unstable person was like, especially after having spent some 100+ years in such a relationship but we victimize Buffy and blame Buffy because she treated Spike horribly when all he wanted was to love her and be loved in return.

No one ever lays any of the blame on Spike for fostering what he knew to be an unhealthy relationship. In season 7, AFTER they stopped sleeping together and were working on their own seperate issues, you could see them changing and see them both doing a lot of growing up. They concentrated on their friendship and on trust issues and in putting their faith into someone else again because every time they had done so before, they were considerably disappointed. After they worked on those issues, then they arrived at a better place, one where they could have probably had a healthy, loving relationship on equal ground.

I'm not saying Spike deserved what he got and all of the cruelty and heartache... I am saying he did know the potential for it was there and he helped to foster the continuation of that type of relationship by trying to force one to happen when he knew it shouldn't.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 09 2007 04:17 pm   #16Scarlet Ibis

I don't like how the writers portrayed Buffy and Xander in season seven, because really, it made no friggin' sense.  They go on and on about Spike being "evil and soulless," and yet, he had more compassion and love in him than some human beings- like Warren the murderer, for instance.  And let's take Warren out of the equation, and look within the Scoobies themselves.  If Spike was so horrible for his 120 years as a vamp, which is not something he chose to be, then what about Anya?  She chose and reigned as a Vengeance demon for 1120, ten times as long, and lamented about how she missed her powers.  Speaking of, did Anya have a soul?  Did she lose it when she became a demon?  I don't believe so.  Even if she had, she didn't get it back by losing her power center.  Anya's been the same way for over a millenia, relishing the kill and torture, and the only thin that made her different was losing her abilities to carry out the act through magic or demoness.  So why was everyone so accepting of her and not Spike, who tried so very hard to fit in, going against his very nature, and staying of his own will, even when Buffy died?  That's what pisses me off.

And furthermore, Spike was a resourceful bastard.  If he really wanted the chip out, he would have found a way.  But he knew that moment it wasn't there, there'd have been no way he would've been accepted in the Scooby circle chipless and without a soul, no matter how inherently good he (his actions) were, even though he really wasn't all that accepted in the first place.  He kept it to belong.  I think the writer's of season six sucked over all as far as the relationships went, which is why I rewrote s6... So disappointing.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 09 2007 04:45 pm   #17ZoeGrace

Caro,

Spike is "love's bitch" admittedly.  He allowed Dru to play him over and over again. He'll put up with the abuse because he is an idealist and believes eventually the woman will see what he's got to offer.

And on AtS I know there was the Fred/Wesley thing starting to brew and that was a long time coming, but I really would have liked to have seen Spike with Fred.  She was his "type"  She had that sweet vulnerability but  also grew to be very strong.  But she wouldn't have hurt him. I wish there was more Spike/Fred fic.


Space Between,

You are trying to make "vampires" fall in line with human moral standards. IMO. Some predators play with their food.  Observe a cat with a mouse.  It's not a pretty event for the mouse.  

And I get Buffy being gun-shy.  But she would be gun-shy around ANY guy if she's smart.  But if she refuses to see what is right in front of her face, others can't be blamed for that.  Also she could have chosen not to engage in a relationship with Spike without being so cruel about it.  She DID flirt and lead him on, and give him crumbs only to take them away.  She was mixed signal Buffy from the very beginning.  

Also, in season five, he loved her, but after "crush" he fell into a "friend" role with her.  He accepted what she had to offer.  He did not continually try to turn it into a romance like your post suggests.  He only pursued and pursued and pursued in a romantic way in season six once Buffy started sleeping with him.  And really, he had a right to, because she was using him.  And he had a right to ask for something from her emotionally when she was giving him her body.

If she wanted him away from her she should have ordered him out of her town.  Not just used him for muscle and bantered with him and then whined when he thought she was pretty.  Her cruel behavior, while maybe a defense mechanism, is still something she's responsible for.

If we go around excusing her behavior of season six because she lost her mom and got ripped out of heaven, let's just excuse ALL people's bad behavior based on the crappy things that have happened to them.  At some point, a true hero, rises above it.  Or they aren't a hero.  IMO.

Also, in the buffyverse Spike didn't seem to be the type to normally play with his food.  In the buffyverse mythology humans sometimes went to voluntarily get bitten and paid for the experience, leading one to the assumption that there was something possibly addictive in a vampire's bite.

If this assumption is true, then killing your food is more merciful than causing it to crave your bite.  And how many little addicts could reasonably run around town before the Vampire race as a whole was threatened?

I agree though about Spike continually pursuing her.  He's got his own fault there.  Though I dont' think it is nearly so exaggerated as its made out to be.  Once she rejected him in season five, he tried to accept it.  But she just kept coming to him for help, knowing he would help because he loved her.  She used him for muscle and then she used his body.

She wasn't running all that hard from him.  Her mouth said no, but her body physically attacked him.

At the end of the day I don't think Buffy in canon deserved Spike, and I think she SHOULD be punished.  She needs to have some of her control stripped away and learn that not everything in life can be what buffy wants.  She wanted to have her cake and eat it too.  She wanted Spike, but she wanted to not have to give him anything. She wanted only to take.  She needs to be whipped, and sometimes in fanfic she is.

If she could let go of this deathgrip she has on control, she'd be a lot happier.  If she could express ANY of her feelings honestly and openly she'd be a lot happier.  By refusing to risk the pain, it all hurts worse.  Had she honestly opened up with Spike, over any of her fears, without making them accusations and put downs.  He would have listened and he would have helped her through it.  But she had to be "tough Buffy" and carry everything on her shoulders.

Much of the weight of the world that she carries, she carries by choice.  There was someone there, who was her equal in every way, who was willing to share the burden.  And yes, if someone says "no, I don't want to be in a relationship with you" that should be respected.

But I have a very hard time respecting someone who's "no" is based entirely on fear and has no other reason behind it.  She wanted to be with him.  But I don't have mass loads of sympathy for someone who's decided to stop living their life because someone might be mean to them.

And yes, everything comes down to Angel, and what if Spike goes evil?  If that's too big of a risk for her, she should have kicked him out of her town instead of making them both suffer.  

I know this post might sound like I hate Buffy, I don't hate her.  I just think she needs to give up some of her control issues.  Because a lot of her angst she brings on herself.  And THAT I have no sympathy for.

And Scarlet Ibis, I agree on all counts. :)

Feb 09 2007 05:35 pm   #18Guest

Zoe,

You've really done a good job of expressing my frustrations with Buffy.  You mentioned her unwillingness to risk the pain.  That was definitely the core of her problem -- she really shut down on life after she sent Angel to hell, and that's when the long slide set in.  The funny thing is that her spiritual guide in Intervention explicitly told her that she needed to risk the pain in order to access the love that was buried inside her.  But all Buffy heard was the last bit about "death is your gift".  What I find especially interesting, though, is that everything the spirit guide told Buffy applied to SPIKE much better.  He definitely was willing to risk the pain, and that's what led him, ultimately, to his glorious, effulgent, ending in the Chosen.  BtVS as a whole blows me away if I allow myself to read this inversion as a deliberate choice on Joss' part.  The true hero of the whole series is unambiguously Spike, who is the only one willing to risk the pain, face his demons, and go to a true hero's death -- not the way Buffy did, halfway just wanting to die to escape the pain of living -- but in full glory, laughing in the face of it.  That he got to that place without support and, indeed, with lots of active hindrance makes him all the more heroic.  If the deep message of the show was that heroes come in unexpected packages, the deepest part of that message was carried by Spike whose heroism was not recognized by anyone (save Buffy, at the end, but she wasn't exactly going to spread the word).  The counterpart to that message is that the people who look like heroes probably aren't.  We saw that most clearly with Angel -- but at the end of the day, we see it also in the Scoobies and in Buffy herself.  Don't know if that's what the writers intended.  They don't often sound as if they recognize that their putatative heroine ultimately stumbles.  But that's how I read the show.  And when I read it that way, I think it's amazingly brilliant.

Maggie

Feb 09 2007 06:22 pm   #19fallen_angel

I felt that everyone on the show was a hero in some way. They all had their moments. Sure they were all chalk full of flaws but that just means that they're just ordinary humanbeing not the extraordinary white hats they thought themselves to be. As for Spike he was a true fallen angel but he rose again and became the hero of season 7. He isn't perfect either and we wouldn't really love him so much if he were. As for Buffy, I actually do hate her but Spike loves her so I love her too. She doesn't deserve Spike but he wants her so he should have her (personally, I think he'd be a lot happier with me). That's why I read and write spuffy.

It's a secret no one tells
One day it's heaven one day it's hell
And it's no fairytale take it from me
That's the way it's supposed to be

You will fly and you will crawl
God knows even angels fall
No such thing as you lost it all
God knows even angels fall

--Linda Davis

Feb 09 2007 07:51 pm   #20Guest

I don't think heroes have to be without flaws.  And I certainly don't think Spike was without flaws!  But for me, a hero is someone who is willing to keep growing toward the best they can be -- despite the fact that it would be easier to deny their problems or find some other way of escaping the pain that is an essential part of growth.  Most of us get stuck in our life journeys cause we refuse to deal with some pain or refuse to let go of some point of view that is stunting us.  On that view of heroism, Spike is far more heroic than the other characters.  It's why his story is so utterly capitivating -- he keeps overcoming himself and his own limitation and is fearlessly unwilling to let pain and humiliation stop him.

That Spike wants Buffy is one good reason to read Spuffy.  The other reason I do is cause I think their stories are deeply intertwined.  His journey is unimaginable without her as its catalyst.  And he seems capable of being a similar catalyst for her -- if she's ever willing to open up to real growth and change.  And we see some of that in her in B7, so lots of room for hope there.  Stories that get at that are my favorites -- though there are plenty of others that are entertaining one way or another.

Maggie

Feb 09 2007 07:53 pm   #21Guest

Yeah, I know, Zoe....but it still frustrated the hell out of me.

Maggie - I'm standing and applauding. Well said!

That's my biggest frustration with Buffy, as well, that she just gave up on *living* life so early and just kept insisting it had to be that way...even when others insisted it didn't. I've *been* a suicidal teenager, and I fought through most of it on my own. I felt helpless in a certain situation, and then finally, I just decided to start counting the days until I could decide for myself (turn 18). Every holiday was one last that my life had to be that way. They were milestones, and it was hard, but I *took* it, stood up for myself on my birthday, and didn't look back.     So if I could do it, she could do it......anyone can do it.....but she stayed a coward. And cowards who insist on *staying* cowards pretty much disgust me.

CM

Feb 09 2007 08:02 pm   #22GoldenBuffy

Space, men hunt animals for sport all the time. They kill lions, hippos, bang tigers, etc. for the "fun" of it. The skin them or stuff their heads and hand them on the wall. What's the difference between that and a vamp doing the same? Because its a human its now wrong? Man likes to hunt, not only for food but for fun. Vampires like to hunt not only for food but for fun. If we look at it from Darwin's view point, vamps are killing off the weak from the heard. Those with good genetics stay alive to bread healthy offspring, but the resy are fare game. I really don't see a problem with it. If you as is it right? From a human moral stand point, no it's not. But looking at it without our human marals then it's ok. Human's act on their nature almost all the time, and so do vamps. Can't blame them for it.

 

Yes so blame falls on Spike as well.He couldn't leave well enough alone. But for one to say Buffy didn't have any attraction to him, I don't buy it. 'Cause she didn't have to help him in season four, she could have staked him. All her teasing of him, belittling him. This is just from what I've seen growing up. When a girl does that she really likes the guy in some twisted sorta way. My one friend for years belittled, bad mouthed, beat up on, etc, to this dude, then she finally broke down and told him she liked him. They dated for two years but went their own ways.

Buffy only added more fuel to the fire when she came back. She went to Spike, started to build more on their unstable friendship, told him she was in heaven, etc. Then she was the one who started the sexual stuff. H enever did that. Yeah, he tried to kiss her, but he never jumped her. So the whole downhill slide came from Buffy's actions not Spike's.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 10 2007 12:57 am   #23ZoeGrace

Amen GB.  I hate this whole: "He relentlessly pursued her" thing.  I mean yeah, his early behavior was very stalker like.  But once he was clear on his feelings and he'd expressed them and he'd been rejected so finally (the barrier spell), he tried to accept it.

He tried to be whatever Buffy wanted him to be.   He wasn't trying to jump or seduce her constantly.  He DID get the buffybot because he needed to find SOME way of dealing.  The buffybot though funny and also kind of gross, shows that he was willing to leave her alone.  He was just trying to find an alternate way to cope.  Then SHE kissed him, at the end of that ep after the glory torture.

Was it gratitude? I don't know, but she knew how he felt about her and I'm not sure how I feel about her kissing him if she never intends to take it anywhere.  Although, by the end of season five, I think they were sort of in a season seven place.  She was getting brave enough to try to see what could happen with Spike.  She was starting to lean on him in ways that you would lean on a partner not just a friend.

Taking him on the "RV trip" heh, having him have her back with Glory and the tower.  The moment they exchanged in the house before they left, there was some look that passed between them, and I really think if she hadn't died she might have tried to see if there could be something between them.  I think she was getting up the courage.

But then, she died, and got ripped out of heaven and was so screwed up.  She came back and it was like she was trying to recapture what she had almost had the nerve to start at the end of season five, but everything she touched turned to dog dookie.  Still, she was the pursuer. not him.  She initiated everything between them physically practically, even when Spike made it plain he didn't want it, because she wasn't willing to give him more than her body.

He had a right to ask her what the kissing was all about.  He wasn't stalking or harassing her, the poor manpire just wanted feedback. Jeez.  A discussion.  But she kept brushing him off and refusing to have an honest talk.  And then there was the sex and it was all downhill from there.  But she certainly wasn't pushing him away.  Any "No, Spike, stop" Was followed swiftly by "Yes, please keep going."  

No meant Yes all season.  She was playing a game she wasn't mature enough to play.  Because she was too big of a coward to be honest.

Feb 10 2007 02:59 am   #24The Space Between

It wasn't the hunting for sport so much that I was referring to. It was the unneccessary torture etc., that was done.

And just a sidenote: I dont' approve hunting for sport either I dont care if its for lions, hippos or one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eaters.

I, personally, do not approve of hunting for any other reason other than for food. And even then, with the big game hunters, you dont see them torturing or maiming just for fun. They do it for the reward...whatever the reward is.

I'm not trying to justify what Buffy did because I am far from happy with how she handled thing. I was simply trying to give another perspective on the whole thing. The truth of the matter is there were horrible wrong-doings on both sides so the blame lays heavily on Buffy but Spike does have to carry some of that too.

Neither were ready for a relationship and neither were able to foster a healthy one and should have stayed far from each other.

After Spike was disinvited, did he not continue to 'walk' by her house and watch her? He was not in a healthy place, seeing as he went out and got a Buffybot and it wasn't like he could just go to the store to do so either so it wasn't a whim type thing. He went to Warren with specs and sking for certian behaviors and dialogue. Quite a bit of thought and planning went into creating Buffybot. He had a specific idea for how he wanted her to be. Someone who would say and do and act the way he wanted without fail. It was sad and desperate seeing how badly he wanted love enough to make the bot.

Regardless, as much as I can't stand how Buffy treated him, I cannot completely blame her for everything. It might not be an equal portion, but it is sizable.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 10 2007 08:43 am   #25Scarlet Ibis

I don't like how after the whole kissing bit in s6, you know, before the sexcapades, Buffy would tell him how much of an "evil, disgusting thing" he was, when she told him she'd never forget what he did for her and Dawn by taking Glory's abuse (I think she molested him.  Was there a reason as to why his belt was unbuckled?  And throwing him on the bed... Gives just cause for the "sleazy, lopsided ass" comment).

And in regards to Spike being a killer, all I can say is, at least he didn't kill for torture or for pain.  He may have killed to eat, or just for the hell of it ("You're too old to eat- but not to kill."), but the head games and whatnot was more Angelus' thing.  In fact, the only reason Spike became as bad as he did was for posturing for Drusilla's affections.  He didn't like her being so hung up on "Daddy," and wanted to prove to her that he good be not only as big and bad as Angelus, but he could do it better.  Spike always loved the fight and the challenge, not the torture and maiming of an "easy target" that Peaches seemed to love so much.  Had Angelus not been in the picture when William was first turned, what kind of vampire would he have been when he came to Sunnydale?  A warrior, definitely, but would he have been the Slayer of Slayers still?  Perhaps...  But I still think the core of his violence was because of Angelus- he says as much in Angel's s5 in "Destiny."

"Come on, hero. Tell me more. Teach me what it means. And I'll tell you why you can't stand the bloody sight of me. 'Cause every time you look at me... you see all the dirty little things I've done, all the lives I've taken... because of you! Drusilla sired me... but you... you made me a monster. You never knew the real me. Too busy trying to see your own reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look, hero. I'm nothing like you!"

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 10 2007 10:48 am   #26GoldenBuffy

* one-horned flying purple people eaters.*

Let me just say, I am happy I wasn't drinking when I read that, rofl. Ok, I'm not for hunting either, unless itd for a real reason, like deer jurky, 'cause it good. I like to eat Bambie. So yeah, drawing out the hunt because it's fun, or makes the bloody spicy, again morally from a human stand point, its bad and wrong. But from a vamp stand point it's ok. And who am I to tell them they shouldn't do it. Buffy even played with her vamps before she slayed them Why? because she got off on it. It was a thrill, she enjoyed the hunt and the kill. Again, it's only natral. It's nature, no matter what you happen to be. Like Zoe said, even a cat plays with a mouse before it sends it's death bite.

As for Spike and the Buffybot. It's sad really, because he did love her so much that he went out and had something made in her likeness. Me personally I would have no problem with that, hell, I would never have rejected him in the first place. But I guess my point is, he left Buffy alone, and went to Warren to get her likeness. Since he felt that was the closest he'd ever get to actually having any kind of contact with Buffy other than her punching him in the nose.

And yeah, he had the bot programed to what he wanted or disered in Buffy. But if her flash foward to S6, was not Buffy treating the real Spike in the manner that he had Buffybot programmed? She wanted him to work like a machine to make her feel, the get her off, regardless of what he wanted or thought. It was Shut up Spike and do as I say. And when she got so disgused with her self she beat the crap out of him.

So, yeah, they are both to blame. I'm not going to ignore that. But in the light of day Buffy was the main body that did the most damage. And in the end in my world at least, after NFA, Buffy and Spiek reunited and she groveled and worked her way back into his good graces. She porved to him that she is worthy of his love and they live happy sorta ever after, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 10 2007 10:53 am   #27GoldenBuffy

OMG, every time I watch that eppie it brings tears to my eyes when he says that. It's so true. And I agree with you. Now as for the belt thing and the bed thing OMG. I never noticed that before, and there, you bring up a goos point. That skanky ho put her hands on his good, or worse. grrrr.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 10 2007 11:58 am   #28LadyYashka

There have been a lot of very good points made and I agree with a lot of them.  Buffy and Spike had an unhealthy relationship and they were both to blame for it blowing up in their faces.

I feel that Buffy holds most of the blame though.

If you take moment to think about it, compaire Spike's situation to Anya's. Both were demons far longer than they were humans and neither fit in with their society when they were human. Being a demon freed them and let them act however they wanted too.

Suddenly Anya's human and Spike is chipped. Both rebelled against their fates but eventually learned to live with it. They both tried to fit back into a human society that was vastly different from their own and both stumbled more often than not.  

 Both knew the basics of right and wrong, good and evil, but it was the fine print that kept screwing them up. Anya though had support. (not that Xander was great at it but it was there) Spike had none.

Nobody bothered to explain things to him. He was constantly told he was "evil, soulless, a monster," ect.  His every action was questioned and nobody praised him for anything good he did. They ignored it and pointed out all of his mistakes instead.

In "Dead Things" he even asked Buffy to explain why she was so upset and instead she decides to beat him up. These actions were not teaching him anything and he truely thought by letting her use him he was helping her. (i.e: his expression when she tells him their relationship is "killing her".)

So yes, Spike holds some blame but a lot of his mistakes probally could have been avioded if somebody, not just Buffy, had sat him down and talked to him.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Feb 10 2007 03:57 pm   #29Scarlet Ibis

You know, I really didn't see the problem with the Buffybot.  "It's gross and obscene."  Meh, it was still flattering.  Come on, as if we all didn't know that if and when Spike touched himself on his naughty place, he wasn't thinking about Buffy (remember the sex games with Harmony?).  Anyway, once Buffy saw for sure that Spike was indeed on her side, and wouldn't give away Dawn at "Intervention" to the baddies, well, why not let him keep the damn thing?  I was with Xander on that.  Especially since he had it, he was inclined to stay away from her, which is what she wanted, right?  We don't see Spike go back to her house, the Magic Box, or any of her other haunts after that ep, unless Buffy's the one tagging him along, asking for his help time and again.

Basically, when I think about it, I feel that Spike's part in the way their relationship ultimately was on a scale of one to ten, I'd say would be a two.  You're right- nobody explained nothing to the poor guy.  And gosh, who continues to see and bring into the fold someone who is not only considered "dangerous and evil," but also a stalker?  Would I keep going to the guy who was stalking me, making life size dolls and robots of me if it really bothered me so much?  No- the reasonable thing would be to stay away from him, no matter how much strength he had.  She used him then, and used him some more in season six.

I read by a wonderful fan fic author by the name of theohara (in an essay she wrote on "As You Were") that in s6, the Warren/Katrina relationship alluded to the Buffy/Spike one (how Katrina represented Spike, and further explaing why Buffy staked Katrina in her dream when she had Spike's eyes).  Warren was going use, and essentially rape his ex, and eventually kills her.  Yea, great metaphor there.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 10 2007 08:06 pm   #30GoldenBuffy

In Angel S 5, I think another reason why Spike didn't got to Buffy was because he was accepted with the Fang Gang. Yeah, he and Angel fought a lot, but the diffrence between Buffy and Angel, the vampire accepted Spike for who and what he was. And as bad as it made Angel feel he saw that Spike had changed. Whereas Buffy never did. Plus, him and Gunn started a friendship as well as Fred, and maybe even Wes. He wanted to stay were he "belonged" no longer wishing to be the outsider looking in.

As for the Buffybot, I think Bufy had that mentality that Spike was Hers. SO even if he had a robot in her likeness he was still "cheating: on her. She felt she could do what she pleased with Spike, period. If she couldn't have him then no one could.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 10 2007 09:15 pm   #31Guest

And Lindsey, as "Doyle" had given him purpose and comeraderie, too, before his plot was revealed. Spike had lots of things here and there to give him incentive to stay....and at least deciding to stay was his *own* decision....

Feb 10 2007 10:19 pm   #32ZoeGrace

oooh good comparison with the katrina/warren thing and the buffy/spike thing.

And I agree that if Buffy REALLY thought Spike was stalking her or in any way hurting her, she would have sent him out of her town or else she would have stayed away from him.  But she kept coming back for more.  She was drawn to him and kept giving him mixed signals as a result.

You don't keep interacting with your stalker, everybody knows that. 

Feb 11 2007 06:08 am   #33The Space Between

I miss Doyle. He was one good looking mick! YAY FOR THE IRISH!

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 11 2007 05:34 pm   #34SpikeHot

 You know, I really didn't see the problem with the Buffybot. 

Imagine someone made a bot that looks identically like you, to the point where your friends can't tell it wasn't you, and had animal sex with it, what would you feel about it? I for one would feel exposed, humiliated and furious. What Spike did was disgusting, even though I understand why he did it. But I'm looking at it from Buffy's point of view, she had every right to be pissed.

I don't hate Buffy. I love her. She's imperfect and that what makes her interesting. I think she grew up a lot in season seven, I also think the Scoobies grew up a lot in season seven, except for Giles who keeps regressing.  

Spike deserved some of Buffy's harsh comments in season six, he tried to distance her from her friends, convince her that she's evil like him, have sex with her even when she says no, enforce his love on her and so on.

I think both Buffy and Spike were jerks toward each other in season six, not only Buffy.

Feb 11 2007 06:52 pm   #35GoldenBuffy

Me, I still don't have a problem with the bot. Spike's a vampire they do things us humans don't. lol Don't get me wrong, I can understand why Buffy was upset. But she told Spike she hated him, blah, blah, blah. So he did what he could to fulfill his desires for her. Now she should have been happy that he at least turned his attention to something else, even if that thing looked like her.

But what did Buffy do? She took his toy away and then flaunted herself around him, asking for help, etc., knowing his feelings for her. She didn't care about him or how he felt about her. All Buffy cared about was how she could use him for her gain.

Again I say blame falls on both of them, but Buffy has a larger roll in it. Even in S6, Spike had all right trying to get Buffy to respond to his love. Hell they were sleeping together. He never forced her to do it with him. She was the one who came to him. Even the scene at the Bronze, she didn't push him away, she wanted it. She wanted what he could do to her body. She used him even then. And I think it's safe to say by S6 Spike was no longer "evil," he was lost and so was Buffy. Both trying to find their way in the world. He only wanted a companion. And maybe in his mind since the chip didn't work on Buffy, she had to be some sort of demon. And in Buffy's world demons were evil. So if Spike could hit her, 

she must be a demon. Not saying Spike followed that logic, 'cause we know

 he doesn't. But he was trying to relate to Buffy. I don't know.  They were both immature, and needed to grow up. S7 they both had. But S6 neither one knew what a healthy relationship was, so neither could direct the other. And of course Buffy didn't want to tell anyone she was sleeping with Spike, to worried about what everyone would think. And again, Spike had no one, but Clem. And factor in both of those and that's how Buffy took it one step further and started the physical abuse as well. Well tookt eh physical abuse further too.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 11 2007 07:05 pm   #36Scarlet Ibis

He never intended for the Scoobies to find out about the Bot- she snuck out and was seen on accident.  And since Spike had no intentions of leaving town, the Bot would have essentially kept him away from Buffy and her friends, leaving them alone.  He would've been content slaying demons at night, and having fun with the bot, or what have you.  Buffy took it away with her "shame on you- you're disgusting and perverted.  Oh yea, but I'm still gonna demand your help whenever I feel like it, cause I like bossing you around. Even though I ordered you to stay away from me" yada, yada, yada.  You can't have it both ways.

And in season6, Spike never said that Buffy was evil like him.  He never said that he was evil- in fact, he kept trying to prove to her that he wasn't.  All he said was that she belonged in the dark, with him.  And technically, he was right.  Buffy didn't belong working at Doublemeat Palace like he said.  Her Slayer strength was imbued from the essence of a demon.  What better way to learn how to fight the darkness, then to be guided by someone who lives there?  And let us not forget how "evil, dark sinister" Spike saved Buffy from committing suicide by dancing herself into flames while her friends and family merely stood there gob smacked, letting her do it so she could become Sweet's bitch.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 11 2007 08:22 pm   #37ZoeGrace

Spikehot, 

Buffy WAS dark like him.  He never said she was evil, only that she had darkness, and that part was true.  She denied her darker nature to the point that it came out in much  uglier ways than it ever would have, had she just been honest about what she was.

She was always playing at being a normal girl and she wasn't.  She had something dark and primal inside her and she constantly lived in fear of it.  She didn't trust that she was strong enough to embrace and accept what she was, without going over to the dark side as faith had.

The first slayer told her to "risk the pain" but she wouldn't.  She didn't listen to her vision. She instead latched onto "death is your gift" and took it and ran with it.  Because it allowed her to escape.  She didn't have to embrace her darkness and she didn't have to embrace her vulnerabilities.  Those two features of her personality are what would have balanced her out and helped her to grow.

Being vulnerable and open to her friends and those around her, while still acknowledging her darker side.  She would have been so much stronger.  But she chose instead to deny and build walls and eventually her darkness came tumbling out, and even though she never embraced it very much (even in season seven), her vulnerabilities were still there as well.

Spike was willing to be in a relationship out in the light with her, but she wouldn't have it.  She made him her dirty little secret, so he was willing to accept having her only in the dark.

And the "have sex with her when she says no" that was a sex game she was too immature to be playing. She wanted it, she wanted him to take the guilt away for wanting it.  All her protests were so flimsy.  She never pulled away from his touch. She said no, while leaning into him.  I'm not saying it's ok to turn someone's body against them, but I don't think Spike ever did that.   He gave her the illusion that he would try to "make her" because it helped her continue to deny her darker side.   He knew the games she was playing, because he's a vampire, and therefore pretty in touch with his darker side.

Yet that darker side in Buffy couldn't be denied and it came out time and time again  when she mistreated him.  If she'd said: "No, stop" and been anything like serious, he would have. (And no need to bring up "Seeing Red"  That ep. in my opinion was so OOC for both of them that I don't even accept it as canon.  Regardless though, THAT is what happens when no means yes for an entire year and you're too stupid to institute a "safeword" for your games.)

Also, Buffy used Spike as her personal sex toy, She also went down on him when he said no and actually meant it because it was hurting him that she was using him like that and wouldn't let him touch her emotionally.

And he never tried to distance her from her friends.  He wanted to be a part of the scoobies.  He wanted their relationship IN THE OPEN.  He begged her to make it open for a long time. But she wouldn't.  "Distancing herself from her friends" was a choice SHE made so that he could remain her dirty little secret.  So she could have her cake and eat it too.

I don't hate Buffy either, I just think she needs to be spanked.

On the Buffybot, I don't have strong opinions either way.  Though I agree that it probably wasn't the best course of action for him to take.  And I can understand Buffy being upset about it. 

He also didn't try to "enforce his love on her" He quite reasonably begged her to let him love her because it was hurting him, her using him as just her sex toy.  He didn't even ask her to love him back.  Just let him love her.  If she was letting him **** her (sorry but I can't use the polite word there, but I censored it), she should have let him care for her without calling him disgusting and evil.

He never wanted the relationship "disgusting and evil." It degenerated to what it became because she refused to let him love her, while insisting that  he make her feel in bed.  And then she took out her self-loathing for that freewill choice on him time and time again.

Yeah...Spike sure was evil.

Feb 12 2007 10:07 am   #38Guest

Zoe, you'd have the jury eating out of your hand. That was a very compelling argument. And I agree wholeheartedly.

Caro Mio

Feb 12 2007 02:53 pm   #39GoldenBuffy

Scarlet that just triggered something in my head. Didn't Dracula say something like that to Buffy as well? About her belonging in the dark, or something like her nature is dark. I can't remember. So now I'm wondering, do the vampire, well older vamps, know more about the Slayer than the she does?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 12 2007 04:53 pm   #40The Space Between

And since Spike had no intentions of leaving town, the Bot would have essentially kept him away from Buffy and her friends, leaving them alone.  He would've been content slaying demons at night, and having fun with the bot, or what have you.

 

Nah...after awhile, Spike would have grown tired of the bot simply because she was predictable and steadfast in her programmed views. The bot was one of those things that you do when emotions are high but after some time goes by you stand there and go "WTF was I thinking?". Spike loved the dance and the diversity and they way Buffy kept him on his toes with the quips and banter and her fighting style. He would have grown bored with the bot after a few weeks I think.

 

Didn't Dracula say something like that to Buffy as well? About her belonging in the dark, or something like her nature is dark. I can't remember. So now I'm wondering, do the vampire, well older vamps, know more about the Slayer than the she does?

Drac told her that she didn't fight because she didn't want to... that her power is very similar to his and he offers to teach her the history of her power.

 

Dracula: There is so much I have to teach you about your history and your power... what your body is capable of...

Buffy: I don't need to know.

Dracula: You long to know and you will have an eternity to learn but first a little taste.

Buffy: I won't let you.

Dracula: I don't mean me (cuts his wrist) All those years fighting us with power so near to our own and you've never once wanted to know what it is that we fight for? Not even a taste? (holds his cut wrist out to her)

Buffy: If I drink that...

Dracula: I have not drunk enough for you to change. You must be near death to become one of us and that will only come when you beg for it.

Buffy: I'm not hungry.

Dracula: No, your craving goes much deeper than that. You think you know what you are... what's to come. You haven't even begun. Find the darkness. Find your true nature.

 

That is how I remember it and I'm too lazy to go load up the DVD *grin* And yeah, I think a lot of the older vampires know more about the history or the origins of the Slayer than the Slayer's themselves. I mean even the Watcher's Council didn't know I don't think or else I think they would have tried to capiltalize on it by using it in some way to have complete control over their Slayers... taking them from the moment of their calling to raise them and train them as the perfect fighting machines and imbuing more of the essence into the Chosen One, making her more of a 'controlled' demon-human hybrid or even tried to take the essence of the Slayer and imbue it into themselves or girls they have raised from birth to make the perfect Slayers.

 

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 12 2007 05:13 pm   #41Guest

Gee, Space.... That sounds like a story I happen to be writing...;)

FetchingMadScientist

Feb 12 2007 05:15 pm   #42The Space Between

Catch the hint there?!?

 

*grin*

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 12 2007 05:39 pm   #43ZoeGrace

hahaha Caro, that's not the first time someone has suggested that I should be a trial lawyer lol.  But I prefer to make my points through writing ;) hehe.  I had considered that career path actually.  But in the end I knew if I did it, it would take away from writing and that's my real dream.

Space, I agree that Spike would have gotten bored of the Buffy bot. He wanted Buffy warm and alive and real, with thoughts and opinions of her own.

Feb 12 2007 05:57 pm   #44Guest

Zoe -- loved your last long post about Buffy's darkness.  Couldn't agree with you more.  Both she and Spike desperately needed to figure out that dark (demonic roots) is not the same thing as evil.  But Buffy was too hooked into the human = good, demon = evil formula to even begin to work that out.  And Spike never challenges that paradigm in a way that would force her to see it.  I'm not sure if he fully understands it either.  We do need to remember that he kept clinging to the Big Bad and Evil labels long after he was neither.  (I think for Spike the labels were important because the "good" William was a wimp who was never going to get laid, whereas being the "evil" Spike worked out much better for him in that regard).  So they are both confused about the nature of good and evil; light and dark -- and that plays a big role in their spiral down.  Still, Buffy played the lead role in the spiral down in the ways you articulated.  And since I do believe that the soul adds something (tho not anything like the importance Buffy et. al. attach to it), I think Buffy had a greater responsibility to get things right.  She is the one who's got the soul after all; she's the one who should have known better.  Instead, she didn't have a clue.  All of this makes her a flawed human being.  Not a reason to hate her.  But it is a reason to resent that she gets the big "hero" label.  Once he got the soul, Spike does much better with it than Buffy ever did with hers. 

Maggie

Feb 12 2007 06:16 pm   #45ZoeGrace

Great points Maggie! I agree.  I agree so much with stuff you say that we have degenerated into "Yes we are so great, observe our greatness." back patters. ;) hehehe.

Anyway...yeah. lol.  I agree that human=good demon=evil was a paradigm that was unhealthy for both of them.  How long before Demons like Clem, and humans like Ted Bundy cease to be just "exceptions" to a rule you want to hold onto?

Even Dawn, in season seven recognized this and harped on Buffy about it.  Buffy dismissed it as some kind of teenaged angsty rant, but Dawn grew up a LOT.  Sure, she went through her little teenage rebellions but she grew and matured in ways that Buffy never did on the show.

And yeah...poor Spike.  "Good" was too associated with the sad little poet he'd once been. 

Also, I know this is a little OT but we're talking shades of gray here.  I've been watching a lot of episodes of Angel lately to help me with the FA fic I'm writing, because I didn't see Angelus as "cookie cutter evil" and I wanted to make sure that wasn't just all made up in my head, that there was actually canon foundational support for not making him 2 dimensional evil.

And the flashbacks with Angelus were a HUGE eye opener.  He was a lot softer around Darla.  And in some ways, early on, there was a type of innocence, even though he was a vampire, and evil, there was a very real sense that Darla "shaped him" in much the same way that he later shaped Spike.  

But back to Buffy and Spike.  I do wish both of them had understood more about their demons.  As long as they had humanity they weren't just instinctual animals (I get the sense personally that the vampire demon was driven by instinct primarily since each vampire is so largely informed by what they were as human.  Darla tells Angel this when he rises, we see it in Spike, and we see it in "vamp willow" where we see some of her darkness and the "I think I'm kinda gay" line originates.  And it's REALLY clear in Harmony lmao.) The demon gave each of them a power and a darker nature, but they could still choose.  For demons the lack of soul makes choosing to do good, needless.  There is no motivation for change and no real punishment for their psyche if they don't.  

Buffy's soul should have acted as an anchor for her, but instead she denied so strongly that the soul didn't do her much good.

I think once Spike got the soul and got over all the issues he had in the basement, he started to see the demon as a strength he had, a gift.  And not as something that made him dirty or unworthy.

Feb 12 2007 11:09 pm   #46Guest

I think we've all gotten to the point of "Good point" and "I agree" now, haven't we? We've done so well, I'm not sure there's anything more to add!

And Space, you remembered that talk verbatim. Well done!

CM

Feb 12 2007 11:16 pm   #47The Space Between

Hee! That is cause I was having all kinds of pervy thoughts about Drac!

 

*grin*

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 12 2007 11:30 pm   #48Scarlet Ibis

Okay, when I made that comment about the bot, I didn't mean for it to sound like forever, but it would've lasted him, cause soon after, Glory made her presence known.

Someone mentioning Spike chose the Big Bad type of labels cause it was easier for him to get laid.  I disagree.  William was innocent, sure, but not necessarily incapable of getting laid, he never got the chance to grow.  Spike chooses labels cause it's easier to have a persona to hide behind- to pretend as if all of William is dead, when it is beyond clear how much of William exists within Spike.  He puts on a front to protect himself, because as tough as Spike is, he's still a bit sensitive in regards to certain things (his feelings and emotions).

Oh yea, and I just read this fic by Holly last night- can't remember the name, but it was basically a parody of "A Christmas Carol," (excellent fic), and in it she said something like because Spike searched for his soul, it meant that he already had one to begin with, or at least partially, and I agree.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 12 2007 11:33 pm   #49ZoeGrace

Good point Scarlet (at the risk of overagreeing lol.  I'm still enjoying this discussion even if it's not big time debate and just people adding things lol.)

If Soul = evil, it implies that the soul is what makes it possible to know right from wrong and make a choice for right.  If Spike does that without a soul, either the view is wrong, or all of his soul was never taken to begin with.

Feb 13 2007 02:13 am   #50Guest

Lots of good points from everyone.  Scarlet -- I'm the one who made the connection between labels and Spike's ability to get laid.  Just to be clear, I don't think that William really couldn't get laid.  I'm saying that Spike's specific experience led him to think that was the case.  He had just been totally rejected and humiliated when he ran into Drusilla.  So he associates being the Big Bad with being someone who doesn't get rejected.  In other words, my original claim was another way of saying that the Big Bad was a way of protecting his inner feeling of emotional vulnerability.  The problem is that once he gets into the land of the Scoobies, his insistence on being thought of as the Big Bad and so on increases his actual vulnerability.  The mask stops working for him -- but he's slow to pick up on this. 

Maggie

Feb 13 2007 02:17 am   #51ZoeGrace

For the record, I wouldn't have slept with William.  I like my men growly and dominant.

Feb 13 2007 03:07 am   #52Scarlet Ibis

I think a few trips to the local whore house would've knocked the prude right out of William.  I dunno... It's the virgin thing that's throwing me- otherwise, he was terribly sweet, intelligent and still good looking.  I think William had the "dominant" gene in him, but he just needed the right woman to bring it out of him.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 13 2007 03:16 am   #53ZoeGrace

You're probably right about the "dominant gene" he just needed to get in touch with his natural "growliness"  And um...I guess he did lol.

Feb 13 2007 03:17 am   #54Guest

I'd play with the virgin!!!!!

('Course, I lost my virginity to a virgin - my fiance - so I don't have the complaints about lack of experience.)

Feb 13 2007 03:31 am   #55ZoeGrace

hehe see, my first husband was a virgin, and my second (and current, I'm not Elizabeth Taylor) was a former man whore (not in the literal money sense), so I can say unequivocally, I don't like my men fresh out of the wrapper. :) TMI I know, but I am princess TMI.  Recognize!

Feb 13 2007 09:31 am   #56Guest

2nd boyfriend has lots more experience, though also only with one person, and he had ideas I definitely hadn't tried, yet. Goodness, he was an overachiever, but only in the bedroom, unfortunately.

Feb 13 2007 11:54 am   #57GoldenBuffy

Thanks Space, you helped my head, lol.

My time for TMI, lol. Sadly, for me I was fresh out of the box with hubby. As for him he was all verginal with his first wife, but she was an ex- whore so she tought him some tricks. rofl. Plus my best friend well, lets just say she's beena round the block. And I used to go to her with all my questions. So yes, I'd jump William given the chance, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 13 2007 04:01 pm   #58The Space Between

My ex was a virgin when we got together and I made him a friggin God in the bedroom! Thank the Goddess for guys that love learning!!

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 13 2007 04:41 pm   #59Scarlet Ibis

I suppose this is TMI, but I'm joining in on the conversation after all.  Don't have a long list of experience over here, (one hand- three fingers left over), but I was determined to not lose my virginity with a virgin or some young buck my age.  There are many factors to take into account, in which I won't go into great detail, but for William's time, IMO, he definitely had one of them, and if I had to guess, with his romantic ideals and Spike's sexual prowess, I'd have to say he was a Scorpio, which by definition, makes him an automatic "freak," closeted or not. Potential...  If William was real, he'd be the only virgin exception I'd take a liking to.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 14 2007 04:11 am   #60Guest

So true, Space!

CM

Feb 14 2007 05:11 am   #61GoldenBuffy
I'd have to say he was a Scorpio, which by definition, makes him an automatic "freak," closeted or not.

OMG, you have me rolling with that one. But so true.

Space, you did a wonderful thing, lol.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 14 2007 09:57 am   #62Guest

Oh, God, my mother's a Scorpio......

Feb 14 2007 03:55 pm   #63The Space Between

HA! I KNEW I WASNT THE ONLY ONE TO PEG SPIKE AS SCORPIO!

He fits the classic 'terms' of Scorpio. Passionate, emotional, feels things deeply, jealous, competitive, emotions govern the actions...

...can you tell I'm an astrology nerd? (I had a class in college where we discussed the real possibilities of our natures being discerned by the stars as well as all the hokey parts to astrology) It was a fun class without being over the top or classic zodiac back-of-the-magazine trash.

 

Hmmm...this is giving me an idea for a story...

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 14 2007 04:37 pm   #64ZoeGrace

I'm an Aries... psycho analyze me next! :)

My husband is also an Aries.

Feb 14 2007 05:22 pm   #65The Space Between

Ooooh! Aries!

Aries are dynamic! That is my most favoritest word for them and it just really fits! Ariens usually are filled with ideas and schemes with a tendency for flair and originality. They also tend to be very lively and energetic, as well as articulate and are natural leaders.

They also tend to be impatient, and sometimes overbearing especially when trying to prove a point or win an arguement.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 14 2007 05:50 pm   #66Scarlet Ibis

LMAO- Aries, that is SO my mom.   I'm a Scorpio btw, and it's all true (cept for that part that keeps insisting we always get our way... boo).

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 14 2007 06:36 pm   #67ZoeGrace

Two aries generally aren't "good together" but i'm really drawn to Aries men because they're so growly.  My first hubbie was an Aries too.  He was too growly in the wrong ways lol. ;)

Feb 14 2007 07:07 pm   #68The Space Between

Nah, mutual signs can be pretty good together. I don't go for that where they aren't supposed to. It all depends on the aspects really...mutual signs can be most beneficial because they can understand the highs and lows better than most.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 14 2007 07:18 pm   #69ZoeGrace

True. but Aries are both very dominant signs, it's not a ram for nothing lol. Head butting.  But in my case I LIKE him to be the growly one so it's not a conflict.  With my first husband it was.  Not that I "really" believe in astrological signs but...you know. ;)

Feb 14 2007 08:49 pm   #70GoldenBuffy

I'm slow, I just caught that, my mom is a Scorpio too. I'm a Sagittarius.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 15 2007 03:59 am   #71The Space Between

Hmmm Sagittarius--hate to take orders but are wonderful idealists. Wide intellectual curiousity about myriad subjects but are easily bored around 'calm' borderline people (those that are kind of dull I guess). Likes travel and learning on your own through experience than in a classroom setting. Sag tend to make great politicians.

~*~ The Powers offer no sympathy for the way things are...Human deeds are left in human hands. It's what one does with what's left that makes any difference ~*~ Jenny Calander as created by HollyDB
Feb 15 2007 06:22 am   #72GoldenBuffy

Me a politician ROFL I can't picture that, but everything else sounds about right. I guess you could say I was a free spirit is school, thending to do things on my own than wait for my class and teacher, etc., lol. As for taking orders. No, I do hate it, but I loved it when I was in JROTC in High Scool. I made it to 2ed Lt. andeven planned on joining the Army or Marins. But I got married and had kids so that took a back set.  And not only do I get bored my boring people but also subjects as well. It's a flaw but what can I say.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Feb 15 2007 08:10 am   #73Scarlet Ibis

Saw this quote, and thought of Buffy...

 

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. "

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 15 2007 05:22 pm   #74ZoeGrace

Yes, this quote has always made me think of buffy.