BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Mary Sue?

Mar 02 2007 09:09 am   #1GoldenBuffy

Since I'm new to the whole Mary Sue, I started reading this fic over at SR. And now I'm wondering is it a Mary Sue?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 02 2007 09:18 am   #2Guest

I think it would be (the fic used to be here, too), but it's an entertaining version. Penny fixes all those things we always wanted to fix on the show.

CM

Mar 02 2007 09:21 am   #3GoldenBuffy

Yeah, I'm still reading, and I have to say I really like it. But I guess it's safe to say not all Mary Sues are like this?

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 02 2007 09:34 am   #4Diabola

If you check out the different definations of Sues, then yes, you'll find "new chick that shows up and fixes everything the author deems wrong with the universe/characters" among them. It's a version that can be done well though, depends on the author.

The Sues that gave ole Mary a bad name are the "new uber-beautiful chick with superpowers that make the former main-characters look like kindergardeners, shows up, fixes what is wrong with the universe, has everyone either fall in love with her or hate her instantly, and ends up with the author's favorite main-character - and all that with complete disregard for the original dynamics between the character and the laws of the universe" ones. They usually come with a tragic past and nifty "insta-trust" too. No mater how good the author, he/she is not gonna be able to save that one. (I also highly doubt that a good author would be intersted in writing something like that.)

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Mar 02 2007 09:56 am   #5LadyYashka

 Also the ones giving Mary a bad name have weirdly spelled or "exotic" names, have gorgeous hair that is described many many times, and odd colored eyes.

So if you see a story with a character that has a name like Monique Celestra Angela Spirit Bonner (well you get the idea), and has violet, golden, or some other weird eye color, and shiny hair most people would kill for, run.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 02 2007 09:59 am   #6Diabola

*points at LadyYashka* What she said.

The new chick being a long lost relative of one of the charaters is usually a bad sign too.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Mar 02 2007 01:22 pm   #7slaymesoftly

I know the fic you're talking about and yes, it definitely qualifies. I quit reading it after the first few chapters because I just can't stand fics like that where one (original) character toddles in and fixes everything. Especially when she talks the whole entire time she's doing it....

There are not a whole huge lot of fan fic writers who can write believable original characters in the first place, and all too often they seem to end up being Mary Sues of one sort or another.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 02 2007 01:31 pm   #8LadyYashka

Sometimes we do have to remind ourselves that just because a story has original characters in it that doesn't automatically mean those characters are Mary Sues (or her male counter part). Unfortunatley those stories with wonderful original characters mixed seemlessly in with cannon characters are very hard to find.

Of course when you find an author who can write believable original characters it's a cause for celebration.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 02 2007 05:40 pm   #9Blood Faerie

*huffs* I'm not sure if by exotic, you're including "foreign" names, because I like to use Japanese, French, Italian, Irish, etc chars because hello, not everyone is from America and not everything happens in America.... and most Americans have foreign ancestors unless you're pure blood Native American

Maybe I'm just getting testy since I like to have foreign characters and such and not sure if you meant those too when you said "exotic" names.

That and after about 10 yrs of writing fanfic, I was recently told that ANY self-insertion was Mary Sue no matter how flawed and loosely based, which I had never heard before. But figured I would add that to this thread as part of the definition, whether you agree or not, because even if you disagree like I do, if you write a fic like that be prepared to have people making comments about it who do agree.

Unfortunately, we had big vampires in the next room, and I didn't think they'd wait while we had hot monkey sex. ~Cerulean Sins :: (Anita to Jean-Claude)“Is there anything your bloodline does that doesn’t involve getting naked?" ~Danse Macabre :: I’m dating three men, living with two more, and having occasional sex with two others. That’s seven men. I’m like a pornographic Snow White. I think seven is plenty. ~Danse Macabre
Mar 02 2007 08:07 pm   #10GoldenBuffy

Thanks everyone for clearing that up for me. I do enjoy the fic but it is getting sorta boring, I mean lett the characters work out their own problems. I don't need someone to roll in and fix everything, even if she's not going to hook up with a male character or female, lol.

Me, personally. I don't think adding an original character who is your own creation that fits with the known characters is a Mary Sue. Like I created Amanda for one of my fics. In no way is she a Mary Sue, she's there since I needed her for the plot, lol. Same with Trinity, and now she's gone. But she did have shiny hair and golden eyes, hope no one thought she was becoming a Mary Sue.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 02 2007 09:09 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis

I started reading that too- interesting points in it, but I was bored to tears by chapters two or three.  It may have kept my interest had Penny been a chick from the future- Spike and Buffy's kid or something.  But shouldn't the characters have reacted upon discovering the fact that they are in a tv show?  And wouldn't Penny's observations pretty much be moot at that point since they have absolutely no control over their actions and interactions, let alone their destiny?  Death to all Mary Sues- it just kills it for me :(

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2007 10:15 pm   #12Guest

to me it all depends on how the story is written. In the story which you guys are talking about I agree. While Penny's views were completely valid, the Scoobies were too trusting and to quick to change in her arrival. For example, the "love" of Buffy's life is put into perspective as a pedophile, while i kinda agree that Angel fell in love with a fifteen year old at first sight while being alive for over two centuries is strange, the fact that Buffy was quick to jump the Spike's exclusive I hate Angel club was out of charachter(I think i spelled it wrong). This is Buffy we're talking about, a hard headed Slayer who lives in the land that is denial.  I can understand her perspective of Angel changing over time but instantly hating her quote on quote soulmate, a bit farfetched. I ditched the story after five chapters because it rushed everything at once. But I'm not all against OC's who put things in a different light to the scoobies. Currently I'm writing my third fanfic in which an OC( a male Slayer) befriends Spike in his utmost low point and helps him, and struggles to help the Scoobies see the good in Spike, but insta-trust, never. That's my lengthy opinion anyways.

Mar 02 2007 11:12 pm   #13slaymesoftly

I remember reading about "Mary Sues" and the danger of putting them into a fic many years ago.  At that time, Mary Sue was presented as someone inserted by the writer who was clearly meant to be herself.  So, if you are a nineteen-year-old college student and you put a blonde, 5'3", 120 lb, 19-yr-old college student into the story and have Spike fall for her....In other words, inserting oneself into the story.  Since then, someone (Bloodshedbaby, I think) has given the more evolved and more generally understood meaning, which is an original character who sees all, knows all, and fixes all.  Someone too perfect, IOW.  A fic can make a MS out of one of the regular characters if the author gives him/her too much knowledge and has the character doing all the exposition.  Think about a three-page scene in which Anya suddenly becomes a fountain of information, not only about demons, but about vampires, claiming, slayers and anything else that the author wanted to put into the story's exposition.  Or Giles spends three pages explaining the Watcher's Counsel to all the Scoobies.  Any character who is too perfect, who knows and shares more information than any one person has any right to know can be considered a Mary Sue.  Make that obnoxiously know-it-all character a thinly disguised copy of yourself and you've made a slam-dunk! :)

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 02 2007 11:39 pm   #14Diabola

I've actually read somewhere that it is more the reaction of the canon-characters to the OC that marks her as a Sue. Think that makes sense. Imagine shiney!special chick, as she was described above, show up and lecture Buffy on how great Spike is - only for Buffy to try to get away from the crazy person as fast as possible. The original character can be as Sueish as you want, as long as the canon-characters react IC to her presence, as in DON't trust her, find her annoying, she's just comic relief.

Same thing holds true with canon-characters turned Sue. The fountain-of-information-Anya Patti described? Imagine the Scoobs reacting to her three-page-lecture not with ephanities (spelling?) but by researching what could have happened to poor Anya. Annoying to funny in three seconds flat.

All Sue traits are much more bearable, as long as the other characters are just as annoyed by her as the reader is. ;-)

When you keep in mind that it is as much the others' reaction as your OC's behaviour that decides whether or not he/she is a Sue/Stu, it becomes easier to figure out which typical Sue traits your OC can have without actually being a Sue (an annyoing one). I checked out one of those Sue-tests once, and at one point it asked whether the OC had traits copied from anyone you know. I think it's pretty silly to claim that makes the OC a Sue, many of the best, most realistic OCs seem so realistic because they are based on real people. It's when you take only the outward apperance of their positive traits that it becomes a problem. (Outward, because even a seemingly good trait can have its downsides in a real person. Just remember Buffy-of -the-shiney-hair and the cream-rinse in s2.)

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." - Albert Einstein
Mar 03 2007 01:12 am   #15Jackofspikes

 

It amazes me how people can trash a knowledgeable Anya. Common sense would demand that the writers of the show under used the character. A character that has 'lived' for over eleven hundred years would have to have learned a thing or two.  Choosing to explore a character that the writers didn't should not be considered a fault, rather a refreshing change from those writers that are so utterly without imagination that they are incapable of or too scared to be innovative.

As too Penny, I have heard the accusation that she is a Mary Sue before. I have also had the same people apologize for that accusation once they actually bothered to finish the story.

Have any of you considered the point that while many of the show's characters may have lived in denial, that was only because no one pushed the issues with them. How do any of you 'know' how these characters would react if someone did? Exploring the perimeters of a character's psychological make up does not mean you are making the character act differently from canon, just that you are showing a possible side that the writers of the show did not.

On a final note, if you want to constructively criticise my work, great, it all helps, but to rag on it, on a forum board at an archive that I no longer post at, because of the backstabbing behaviour that some of the moderators have developed a fondness for, only shows that my reason and the reason for all the others that have left is validated.

 

Mar 03 2007 01:38 am   #16Guest

I'm not gonna disagree with you and say that if a certain charachter pushed an issue between the Scoobies, they'd finally realize and accept it, they probably would, but these are the Scoobies we are talking about. A group of people who for most of their time since knowing Buffy see things in black and white. People good, demons bad. Do you honestly believe that if a woman popped out of no where and told them she got pulled into their dimension by the PtB and began telling them a major psychological insight to them that they'd automatically accept it without truly knowing who she was. When Whistler appeared in S2 and told Buffy he worked for the PtB, didn't Buffy choke him. Any normal person would be freaked if somebody just pops out of the blue and begins rambling about your life without knowing who they are. I sure as hell wouldn't accept what they'd  have to say right away. If the story hadn't rushed Penny's insights and the immediate changes in the very biased Scoobies, i think it'd be more believable. One more example and  I'll finally shut up, DoS' BHNM, an awesome fanfic, while the tv shows rarely showed a seriously violent or disturbed side of Xander, DoS' fanfic took Xander to new different level yet she made it believable and into one hell of a fanfic. If she would of rushed it and made him pop out of nowhere being evil and all I probably wouldn't of read it. Now most of your fics were good, I've read them. But in my personal opinion, regardless of how much I agreed with what Penny said, it was too quick. Just my opinion.

Mar 03 2007 01:47 am   #17Jackofspikes

And I appreciate the opinion. Thank you, I will certainly take it into consideration.

You say 'most of your fic's were...', indicating that you think my writing is a thing of the past. I have many new stories and a few new WIP...I just don't post them here.

Jack

Mar 03 2007 02:07 am   #18Scarlet Ibis

Jackofspikes, I have a question, and by no means am I attempting to be disrespectful, but why are the characters so accepting of being fictional?  Perhaps I don't have the right to ask, because I haven't finished, but I found that to be most puzzling.  A similar story arc occurs in "The Last Action Hero," and after the main character vehemently denies the fact that his reality is a farce, he is devestated when he learns that he isn't real.  That was what confused me- they just ask which characters represent what. Please explain? :shrug:

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 02:39 am   #19Jackofspikes

 

Honestly - that's a really good question.

You have to remember that when I wrote Penny the story itself was a precursor to another longer tale that I haven't begun to post yet.

The fact that the characters were TV show characters in Penny's dimension does not mean that the actual characters in my story are TV show characters or that them being TV show characters in another dimension will affect the 'real' people any more than the plot dictates.

The TV show dimension was needed for a particular aspect of the main story still to come. If I say any more than that it may give away some of the plot of that story.

As to why the characters in Penny didn't react overly to the news that they were TV stars in another dimension, it was intentional. I had hoped that the plethora of information that Penny bombarded them with in the first few chapters would be enough to distract them from that piece of information. And while I managed to distract the characters, clearly I was not able to distract the readers.

I apologize for being unable to clarify this matter totally for you. But I am sure you can understand that I will not give away future plot information. All I can tell you is that Penny is filled with foreshadowing and your question will be answered within the final tale.

 

Mar 03 2007 02:50 am   #20Scarlet Ibis

Thank you for clearing that up, and good luck with the progression of your fic :)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 03 2007 02:50 am   #21Jackofspikes

One more point on that...In Last Action Hero, the fictional character entered the 'real' world from the film world and was forced to realize he was a character in a story. The depiction of Arnold playing himself was that the actor was never made to think he was anything but real.

In Penny, she changes dimensions.

I might add that at no point did I ever say that the TV characters from Penny's dimension looked anything like the 'real' people she met in Sunnydale. :halo:

Mar 03 2007 03:45 am   #22GoldenBuffy

Hey JackofSpikes,

I don't want you to think I was ragging on your fic. 'Cause no I wasn't. I started reading it and still am, right now I'm on chapter 9. My eyes started hurting reading the blue on black background, so I'm taking a break. I had posted the thread here under Mary Sue, since I was un sure just what a Mary Sue was. Now I do know what one is. But I am greatly enjoying your fic, there are many points tha Penny hit that I find nodding my head to. Believe me if I find something that I think is a good read, I stick with it. So again, I hope you don't think I was ragging on your fic, cause I wasn't.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 03 2007 03:48 am   #23LadyYashka

"Maybe I'm just getting testy since I like to have foreign characters and such and not sure if you meant those too when you said "exotic" names."

No, I didn't. I meant names like the one I mentioned."Monique Celestra Angela Spirit Bonner" ( I made this one up)

Now some of those names seperate are fine but when a person generally takes every unique name and some that are made up and puts them together chances are they are Sues.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 03 2007 04:01 am   #24slaymesoftly

Um, if that was aimed at my comments...I wasn't trashing a knowledgeable Anya by any means. I've used her myself several times as a source of informaton on demons or what have you.  The Mary Sue issue (which, perhaps needs a new name) isn't the character itself - it is the way in which the character is used and how believeable it is in the context of the story. People rarely make lengthy speeches, no matter how much information they have to impart - and listeners rarely sit still for that much exposition if it does happen.  To use a character like Anya in a way that didn't occur to the show's writers is a logical thing to do in a fic; but I think what Dia was saying is that if she went on a lengthy discourse about everything they needed to know, all at one time, the Scoobies would soon tune her out and walk away. When they don't do that, but sit quietly and nod at her wisdom, it is unrealistic and therefore, ultimately uninteresting to the reader.  No matter how important the information might be.

I don't believe, BTW, that the original comment was posted with the intent of "ragging" on your fic, but was a legitimate question from someone who wasn't clear on what a Mary Sue was and wanted to know.  It is, perhaps, unfortunate that the actual fic she was curious about was named, but it is posted on a public archive and I believe it was done in all innocence. The rest of the discussion - with the possible exception of my comment- was discussion, debate and information sharing relating to the original question of what constitutes a Mary Sue rather than on your fic specifically. Exactly the kind of thing the forum is for.

I apologize for my comment above about quitting on Penny - although, you will note that I said it was because I don't like any fics like that - not just that specific one. I bail on any fic that turns out to contain too much of anything I don't care for - whether it be the subject matter, the way it is written, the plot or the characters. It isn't personal except in the sense that I have specific likes and dislikes in all areas and I have too much reading to do to spend time on anything that I don't think is going to appeal to me.  I can't apologize for agreeing that Penny is the very embodiment of a Mary Sue, because in those first several chapters she fits the definition to a tee, regardless of how she may turn out by the end of the fic.

You are always going to get these kinds of responses to Penny from readers as they begin that story. Just as you did when you first started posting it.  Since I didn't finish it, I can't comment on how it turns out and will take your word for it that many of the original complainers ended up apologizing, but I think you will have to accept that those first chapters are always going to drive some readers away. 

Good point, Lady Yashka - certainly not all original characters are Mary Sues by any means. As I think we covered above, being a Mary Sue is more the way in which a character is used than it is the use of an original character. Many, many fics have original characters that blend into the story just fine - it is when they don't blend and/or seem to take over the story that readers begin to whisper the dreaded "Mary Sue" name.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 03 2007 04:32 am   #25Jackofspikes

 

I have no problem with the subject of the thread. Goldenbuffy had an excellent question.

As Slaymesoftly has said the subject of Mary Sue was suggested when I first started posting the fic and at the time I actually had to have the concept of what a Mary Sue was explained to me as I had never heard the term before.

I certainly understand that people may come to the erroneous conclusion that Penny may be a Mary Sue after reading only a few chapters of the fic.

My problem lies with those people who use my story as an example, but haven't read the entire story and so are basing their opinions on a few chapters that don't give them a chance to see how the character develops. If you read the entire story and still feel Penny is a Mary Sue then fine. I'll wear that opinion. However, analysing a character based on little or no knowledge of said character is insulting to the author and ultimately unfair.

I relish debate and will happily argue the idea of Penny being a Mary Sue character, but I expect that my opponent would show me the respect of being prepared. I tend to hope people will treat me with the same respect with which I would treat them

Mar 03 2007 04:58 am   #26LadyYashka

" ...think what Dia was saying is that if she went on a lengthy discourse about everything they needed to know, all at one time, the Scoobies would soon tune her out and walk away. When they don't do that, but sit quietly and nod at her wisdom, it is unrealistic..."

Here's an example: When Giles started on a lengthy discourse about the current evil they were fighting, what did the Scoobies do? They inturrupted him, made bad jokes, and basically told him to "hurry the hell up." If they wouldn't sit still for Giles they are not about to sit still for some stranger.

"... it is when they don't blend and/or seem to take over the story that readers begin to whisper the dreaded "Mary Sue" name. "

That is very true. I've been reading fan fiction for a long time and in many different fandoms. I feel that I can spot a Sue when I come across one. :)

Now I have read stories with Sues that are very entertaining. There's one in the Highlander fandom that is absolutly hiliarious. It all depends on how the author handles the story. Again, these authors are very rare and Sue stories generally stink.


 

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 03 2007 05:04 am   #27Jackofspikes

I apologise LadyYashka, but I am confused...are you suggesting that you are able to discern a character in it's entirity without actually reading the whole story, or that you read the entire story and then make your judgement?

Mar 03 2007 05:15 am   #28LadyYashka

"I apologise LadyYashka, but I am confused...are you suggesting that you are able to discern a character in it's entirity without actually reading the whole story, or that you read the entire story and then make your judgement?"

Nah, it's cool. I'll read the whole story unless it's so bad it makes my brain hurt. Those usually involve bad spelling, grammar, and characterization. And if I can spot the bad spelling and grammar then it's pretty bad.

Most of the time if I like the story I'll read it anyway regardless if the character is a Sue or not. The one I mentioned for the Highlander fandom I've read a few times. For me if the story is good I'll read it.

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 03 2007 07:25 am   #29Guest

   JackofSpikes, I'm a bit confused, myself...if you left the site some time ago and no longer wish to post here...why are you here?  I certainly understand if you might have been offended by someone making comments on your fic, but now it seems like you're trying to police the forum of a site that you no longer wish to associate with and make sure people walk on eggshells in a previous open discussion. 

Mar 03 2007 11:43 pm   #30fallen_angel
JackofSpikes, I'm a bit confused, myself...if you left the site some time ago and no longer wish to post here...why are you here? I certainly understand if you might have been offended by someone making comments on your fic, but now it seems like you're trying to police the forum of a site that you no longer wish to associate with and make sure people walk on eggshells in a previous open discussion.

I'm apologise in advance but your comment was sort of rude. Why jack left is her concern. Her name is still on the member list of this site as you can tell by the fact that she, unlike you is signed in. And if you *understand* like your post suggests then you really shouldn't have posted it in the first place. And ofcourse jack is upset, you are practically ripping apart her fic. If you notice in all those writing tips we have on the forum,  a fic is never mentioned as an example out of coutesy. I always felt that BSV was an open and welcoming site for all spuffy fans and therefore jack has every right to be here. If you've got problems I suggest you sign in instead of being a coward when posting. Don't give this site a bad name. And before you accuse me of it, I'm not saying this because I'm a jack fan or something, I haven't been following any of her fics. I'm saying this because if I was jack I would be really hurt by this entire discussion.

It's a secret no one tells
One day it's heaven one day it's hell
And it's no fairytale take it from me
That's the way it's supposed to be

You will fly and you will crawl
God knows even angels fall
No such thing as you lost it all
God knows even angels fall

--Linda Davis

Mar 04 2007 01:06 am   #31Guest

Thank you Fallen Angel.

Guest wrote: JackofSpikes, I'm a bit confused, myself...if you left the site some time ago and no longer wish to post here...why are you here?

My answer: I am a member. I don't post here but I do continue to support some of the incredibly gifted authors who do.

Guest wrote: I certainly understand if you might have been offended by someone making comments on your fic, but now it seems like you're trying to police the forum of a site that you no longer wish to associate with and make sure people walk on eggshells in a previous open discussion.

My response: Guest if you think standing up for a character that I created and a fic that I wrote is 'policing', then I feel sorry for the fact that you've obviously never created something new.

I can only think of three reasons for you to not be signed on as anything other than Guest:

One - You are not a member.

Two - You are a member but are too much of a coward to openly stand by your convictions and words - words that are clearly intended to be aggressive.

Three - You are a talent-less hack, known for your cliché storylines and bitchy personality.

I don't know which one of these three options applies to you but I do feel that your comments dictate that I clarify something I said earlier - I said that 'I relish debate'…perhaps what I should have said is that I relish intelligent debate.

Mar 04 2007 01:08 am   #32Jackofspikes

see how easy it is to log in!

Mar 04 2007 01:16 am   #33DreamsofSpike

i have to agree with fallen_angel here...i get the impression from most of these comments that they were not *intended* to be hurtful...but quite frankly, i think they are.

It seems like several people just got in here crititcizing a fic in a place where they *believed* that the writer would not be around to see their comments or respond to them...and in my opinion, that's kind of wrong. Any comments this critical in nature should probably be delivered to the author in person -- and *private* -- not just stuck up there to bias other readers against their fic before they've ever read it.

Personally, I miss Jack here at BSV, love her fics, and still consider her one of many online friends I have made in the fandom...and I would never make some of these comments in this way, where it can be hurtful and insulting and very disrespectful to her.

And I agree with her comments above about saying things like this if you're not logged in, too. How can you say a word about her being here, when you're apparently not a member yourself?

I'm sorry, this whole thing just bothers me a lot.

Jack, I love you. You are so welcome to stay here in my book!!!! And I love your fics, too!!!

Mar 04 2007 01:32 am   #34Jackofspikes

Thanks for the support, sweetie. I really do appreciate it.

 

Jack

Mar 04 2007 01:45 am   #35slaymesoftly

The forum is intended to be a place for open discussion, so as long as no one gets nasty or too personal, anyone should be allowed to both monitor it and comment if they have something to say.  As I said before, it is unfortunate that the fic was identified and that the resulting discussion about what constitutes a MS and how that may or may not affect a reader's enjoyment of a fic obviously became (intended or not) focused on Jack's story more than on the more general topic of MS in fan fiction. I don't believe that was the intent, after the original question and the specific comments that followed it; however, Jack has the right to defend her story if she disagrees or feels it is being held up to public criticism.

There is no one who is not welcome here so long as they are respectful and have something to contribute to a discussion, and that would include an author who felt the need to correct any misconceptions about his/her story.  At the same time, no one is obligated to log in (and I'm sure many people cannot long in, if they are reading from work) when they comment, so to accuse someone of cowardice could be seen as jumping to conclusions.

How about if everyone takes a deep breath and counts to ten?  There was no intent to hurt anyone's feelings by having a discussion about what might and might not constitute a MS, nor was Jack out of order to speak up and defend her character when she saw that it was the subject of discussion. Anything else is getting into non-thread territory and setting the stage for more hard feelings.

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 04 2007 02:23 am   #36Scarlet Ibis

Hey everyone,

I'm new here to BSV, but not new to forums in general.  This thread has clearly taken a... not so pleasant turn.  However, we all won't share the same opinions, and we all won't like the same fics.  That's cool.  But we shouldn't have to result to name calling and other immature things.  I only bring it because on a few of the other forums I've been on, things take a further downward turn full of pettiness and picking sides, etc., making others uncomfortable.

Looking back at my first comment on this topic, it may have seemed in malice.  That was not my intention.  However, I stand by my opinion that I do not like to continue fics with Mary Sues, or Mary Sue like characters. That in no way reflects how I feel about JackofSpikes other fics, for I have not read them.

What makes sites such as this so great is its diversity- everyone has their own tastes, and this site and others can cater to them all usually in some form or fashion.

So, long and short of it?  Hell if I know... Everybody loosen up, be yourselves, and have fun.  And let's all try to leave the immaturity at the door, mmkay?

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 04 2007 02:26 am   #37DreamsofSpike

I want to just say that I had no intention to specifically target anyone with my comment...true, everyone has the right to say what they want on here...but I do think that the rather rude questions as to why Jack was even here (coming from someone who was not logged in) kind of goes over the line of what's acceptable and what's not, in my opinion.

If a person can make unkind comments about someone's story on here, then the author has the right to rebut, *period*.

Mar 04 2007 02:42 am   #38Scarlet Ibis

Absolutely agree, DoS.  However, if past experience tells me anything is that this won't be the last for something like this to occur.  On one fic I'm reading at another site, there was actually a reviewer (an unsigned one), attacking the author for the choices they were making in story.  Which was way weird, considering that the person who despised it so much was like thirty chapters in...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 04 2007 02:47 am   #39DreamsofSpike

was that author me?? LOL :P

sounds familiar

yeah, i've had reviewers do that sort of thing, and i really dont mind in the long run, if they're at least able to own up to their opinions...but when it's anonymous, to me that's different...i mean, even if you can't sign in, you can still sign your SN to the comment... i do it all the time when i forget to log in ... LOL :P

anyways, sorry if i've offended anyone, but it kind of steams me to see some of the insulting remarks that were made about a friend of mine...

 

Mar 04 2007 02:52 am   #40Scarlet Ibis

DoS, I wasn't referring to you, but if it happens let me know, cause I have your back ;)

And I agree- be a man or a woman and put your name down.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 04 2007 02:53 am   #41DreamsofSpike

thanx, SI :)

*hugs*

Mar 04 2007 08:24 am   #42GoldenBuffy

I just popped back in to the thread, and I just wanted to say I'm sorry for even starting the post. I was confused on the whole MS and now look at what happened. JackofSpikes I'm sorry if you felt like I was attacking you or your fic in anyway. I know I've said that before but I'm saying it again. Next time I have a question there will be no linking to the fic. *sigh* Sorry once again.

And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Mar 04 2007 08:38 am   #43Jackofspikes

That's fine GoldenBuffy, it wasn't you that took it too far. Your question was reasonable. Out of all this, I hope that one thing at least was achieved... your question was answered.

Jack

Mar 06 2007 08:49 am   #44Dead Man Walking

Sup people.

Newbie, kay? if i don't make sense, disregard whatever it is i say. Thanks.

Question about Mary Sues - Is basically what your saying that if you invent a character and they fall in love with Spike/Angel/ any one else they are MS's?


ta.

Mar 06 2007 09:17 am   #45LadyYashka

Hello Dead Man Walking.  :wave:

Hopefully I can answer your question.

"Is basically what your saying that if you invent a character and they fall in love with Spike/Angel/ any one else they are MS's?"

No, they are not. I did say in a few earlier post that not all original characters are MS or her male counterpart. A MS is a character that comes on the scene and usually has some weird name, odd eye color, very pretty hair, a tragic past, is a long lost realative, and (or) is very powerful. The canon characters usually either end up hating her or instantly loving her. She makes them look like they are little weaklings and can usually do anything they can ten times better.

 

Tomorrow may be hell, but today was a good writing day, and on the good writing days nothing else matters. — Neil Gaiman
Mar 07 2007 06:44 am   #46ZoeGrace

if someone feels that a character is a mary sue, it has nothing to do with liking or not liking the author as a person.  It is a criticism of the fiction in general.  Anyone is surely welcome to point out why they don't believe their character is a mary sue, but I'm not sure why it has gotten so personal.

A critique of a piece of fiction is not a critique of the writer as a person and I think if more people could make that separation there would be less bitchy back and forth.

Mar 07 2007 04:45 pm   #47slaymesoftly

Amen, Zoe. 

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Mar 08 2007 12:19 pm   #48Caro Mio

Seconded!

What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
Mar 09 2007 03:30 am   #49Dead Man Walking

Thanks for clearing that up, guys!

and thanks for the warm welcome, Lady Yashka!

Feb 22 2011 03:18 am   #50Guest 
I know this thead is years old, but I just read "A Penny for Your..." and yes, the character Penny is the very definition of a Mary Sue. No offense, but the whole purpose of the fic seems to be to place Spike up on a pedestal and bash other characters. It breaks canon several times, and characters act very OOC. I didn't find it to be a well written story at all.
Feb 22 2011 08:06 am   #51Always_jbj
I know this thead is years old, but I just read "A Penny for Your..." and yes, the character Penny is the very definition of a Mary Sue. No offense, but the whole purpose of the fic seems to be to place Spike up on a pedestal and bash other characters. It breaks canon several times, and characters act very OOC. I didn't find it to be a well written story at all.

Guest: Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and Mary Sues are often a subject of debate, but I don't see what point there was to you coming onto a VERY old thread to make this particular comment. All that could possibly be acheived by this is continuing an argument and hurt feelings that were over years ago. If you feel strongly about the story, and need to express your opinion, then make your comments to the author in a review... and if you do so, it would be polite to sign your name so she knows who to adress in reply.
Aim from the heart
Some will love and some will curse you, baby
You can go to war
But only if you have to 


Fanfic ~*~ Artwork ~*~ Live Journal
Feb 22 2011 11:51 pm   #52ladycat713 
I don't consider it to be a Mary Sue fic and I like it a lot.
Her appearance is because she's supposed to look like Spike. Maybe she's the decendant he would've had if he had lived.
She doesn't end with a main character, she ends up with Willy the bartender.
The things she says are the things a fan would say if they had the opportunity. What you would say if you felt like shaking someone because they couldn't see the obvious
(like in early season 8 going up to Buffy , slapping her and saying she's in love with you , you're leading her on and that is incredibly cruel! If you aren't intersted in starting something , transfer her first, not sleep with her , give her hope and then promote making it look like she earned her promotion in bed!).
It's also the author's very first fic. So cut them some slack.
Feb 23 2011 12:39 am   #53slaymesoftly
I'm seriously considering locking this thread. There is no good reason to dredge all this stuff up again, whether it's to critque a particular fic or to defend it. If someone has something to contribute in terms of a discussion of MS type characters in general and how to watch your own work to make sure you are not turning one of your characters - canon or original - into a MS, that's fine. However, we are not going to discuss a particular story by a particular author.  The parts of the thread that do not devolve into personal attacks/defenses already offer a pretty good review of what most readers find objectionable and/or boring about these characters. It is a writing style issue, and one that can be quite subjective. One reader's idea of a boring/annoying MS is another's idea of a hero to be applauded, and there will no meeting of the minds there no matter how long the thread gets.

We're done, people. If you want to discuss what you think constitutes a MS character, begin a new thread. But do it without citing examples.
I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Feb 24 2011 05:05 am   #54Sensei
I just saw this thread for the first time and checked it to see what the actual definition of Mary Sue is--but I got a lot more than I bargained for.  I truly winced at the cruel direction this thread took--even if it was done inadvertently.  Slaymesoftly--I think your idea of ending this thread is a good one.  I am sure people will disagree with this, but I actually think it is fine to just delete it.  You aren't being a dictator who bans freedom of speech doing so.  This is a thread that turned ugly and does not represent the openness and friendliness I have found here at BSV.  It alienates people rather than encouraging them to be part of the forums.

Let's all remember the important things we have in common that unite us instead of letting minor things divide us!

 Closed