Not everything is everyone's cup of tea...that's fine. And there is (IMHO) nothing wrong with con-crit as long as it is given respectfully.

BUT to jump all over a new author just because their summary is too long... well that is just plain bitchy and obnoxious! GROW UP!!!

Please see long arsed disclaimer below!!

The opinions expressed herin are those of Always_jbj the person, and are not to be seen as those of the Bloodshedverse (because we all know sites have opinions), its owner or any of its other moderators.

Someone complained about a summary being too long? Obnoxious doesn't even begin to cover it. To paraphrase a certain witch, he/she's a poophead.  

hellbound

Agreed. Whoever did that is just being a b*$#@! I mean really, how nitpicky can you get? Loser.

"Chock full of hoot and just a little bit of nanny!"

Really trying to avoid getting into this - but, I would also really like to see some actual reviews for the chapter this girl put up that don't involve giving her writing advice, but actually say something kind about her fic. Kindly expressed advice belongs in a private e mail to the author, not in a review.

In spite of the evilness and cold-hearted nature of the mods here at the verse, we kind of pride ourselves on this site's having reviewers who only comment when they have something nice to say.

 In spite of the evilness and cold-hearted nature of the mods here at the verse, we kind of pride ourselves on this site's having reviewers who only comment when they have something nice to say.

*nods* Yup, we do! lol

And in spite of what EAS/Blood Faerie or whatever she wants to call herself may think... I have nothing personally against her--have in fact never had anything to do with her. I just don't think that such a bitchy, snarky 'review' is a good way to welcome anyone to the BSV...and there is no way that it was meant to be helpful...the whole tone was just snide and nasty.

I agree that the tone was too snarky. And that wasn't a "review".

Harry Potter's not my thing, but I hope she gets some genuine readers to follow her story.

CM

Yeah, HP is not really my thing either... but like you, I do hope she gets some readers and some proper reviews.

I will agree I think Marie could have sent a private e-mail to tell the writer, but for me that wasn't mean or snarky, but I guess each person reads and takes it differently. But these things should be done in private, we don't want to scare away new writers or readers.

And the mods are not mean nor cold-hearted, you all are very kind. Well that's what I see, lol.

I don't mind critical reviews personally (like I don't expect every review to be nice.  I know if i post it on a public forum that there is a good chance someone won't like it and they might tell me so.)

I can handle criticism even if it's not all that constructive cause everybody has an opinion.  Though I like for my reviews to be about the story itself.  Doesn't mean that's what I'm going to get lol...just saying...I don't mind negative if it's actually about the story.

You have no idea how much I wish I'd never read this thread, because now I wonder why I should bother putting any of my stories on the BSV. At least if these are understood to be the rules about reviews.

I would also really like to see some actual reviews for the chapter this girl put up that don't involve giving her writing advice, but actually say something kind about her fic. Kindly expressed advice belongs in a private e mail to the author, not in a review.

If "kindly expressed advice" doesn't belong in a review, maybe we shouldn't call them reviews but "nice things people say about this fic". I agree that the advice was kindly, not bitchy as others have stated. After all there was no critique of the author's writing, just a bit of formating advice which was intended to help her get more people to read her fic.

If people can't offer this sort of advice at the BSV without being attacked, then I'm not sure it's in my best interests as an author to post here, because I'd rather have people read my fics in a place where they can offer me advice if they have any.

Of course Always did start her post saying that this was her opinion and not that of the site, so I give her points for that. In fact I noticed that in the forum post on how to get your fics nominated athenewolf writes : People are shy about sharing their criticisms and editing suggestions, because many people have offered them and then been ignored or the author has gotten mad at them. Understand this problem.

Obviously she was right. People can't give constructive criticism without being attacked. In fact what's worse, we don't even know if the author of this fic was hurt by the review, or thankful that someone had given her some advice. I know I received a lot of advince when I started out that made me a much better writer (like 'Get a beta' the best advice I ever got). 

Icemink I know what you mean. When I first started out I know I sucked at writing lol, and it was BSB who told me about a beta and how to get one. I don't think anyone is saying not to give constructive criticism, but if you do do it in a way that's not in a nasty way. (does that make sense?) I mean I wouldn't want someone telling me that the story sucks and I need to get a beta or never post it anywhere on the net ever again, that would hurt.

People have helped me a lot over the past year but a negative review, even if you are thick-skined can sting and make you stop writing or sharing what you have wrote. But you shouldn't base posting your fic(s) here on this thread. People will review and tell you what they think of your story, at least I know I do.

If you will note I also said I have no problem with con-crit... however, telling someone (in a VERY nasty tone) that their summary is too long is not contructive, nor is it about the writing or the story... it is just being bitchy for the sake of it.

icemink,

I'm not comfortable with the idea of just saying nice things in reviews either.  If all I'm getting is empty praise but no one is allowed to say anything negative, how can I grow?

Further, while some authors might not be comfortable receiving this type of thing on a public board and might prefer it in email, maybe they could put an author's note to that effect at the bottom of their fiction.  Something like: "constructive criticism is appreciated, but please send it in email to this address." (I say this only because I understand that not everybody writes in general for the same reason I write.  Some people really DO just want to hear nice things)

But I don't want people to shy away from criticism.  Because often when it's posted as a public review, I can respond to it in reviews, and either take the advice, or disagree but clarify why.  So if another reader has those same feelings they can at least have something clarified.  Normally I'm explaining plot choices in reviews where they are disagreed with, but with writing style itself I tend to be more open to actually changing something, since it's about communicating my story more effectively and smoothly.  Choppy dialogue, bland exposition, etc.  are things I can edit without changing the meaning, purpose, or destination of the story.

Zoe

p.s. to interject my opinion on the actual topic.  I don't think the original review was really nasty.  Though I can see where some might read it as such.  What I think is nasty is back and forth discussions and comments on that review on someone's review page.  When someone sees they have a new review in their inbox, they are expecting it to be an ACTUAL review, as opposed to a discussion with another review poster.  And I'm not taking a side here.  I think ALL sides were equally snippy bringing personal drama onto someone else's review page.  JMO.

Again, my post had nothing to do with constructive criticism, which I happen to be very much in favour of.

Actually (and I don't know if you were talking to me or Icemink) Always_jbj, I was referring to slaymesoftly's comment about just having nice things to say.  I was totally clear on what you're saying.  I won't argue for or against the level of snippiness in a review, though I will say that I think reviews should be about the actual story itself.

though I will say that I think reviews should be about the actual story itself

I agree!!

As for Patti's comment, I'm not entirely sure what she was referring to, as I know that she, also, is a strong supporter of con-crit. I guess you will just have to ask her.

And I was answering you, because I thought that your comments were in response to me, and that you thought I objected to constructive criticism, obviously I was mistaken. LOL

I guess the problem Always, is that I saw nothing nasty or bitchy in the review. I guess that using the term 'long-assed' wasn't the best choice of words, but I think it was meant to be light hearted and joking. And it reads to me like a suggestion. You're right it doesn't have to do with the actual story itself, but let's face it, many people choose to read a story (especially one by a new author) based on what appears in the summary. 

Mostly though I feel sorry for the poor girl whose story has ended up in the middle of this minor kerfluffle (and yes, I know I'm part of the problem not the solution).

*shrugs* Who knows... perhaps it comes down to different use of language in different countries, but as far as I can see the fact that it starts off with an 'Oi' and then later goes on to complain about the 'long assed' summary is anything but friendly or helpful, and I'm obviously not the only person who interpreted it that way.

Things can be said in a nicer way... and most of our members here at the BSV manage that quite well, even con-crit can be delivered 'nicely' it doesn't NEED to be an attack.

And, yes... I feel sorry for the girl too... hence moving to the forum because I have no wish to continue this in her review form.

hehehe always_jbj.  And probably I took what Patti said to mean something else.  Because criticism can be said in a non-hateful way.  btw, I'm on the air right now on internet radio:  http://aequitas.unrealradio.org:9500/listen.pls

btw, I'm on the air right now on internet radio

LOL...go you! Unfortunately I don't have speakers on my computer, so there wouldn't be any point me trying to tune in.

 *shrugs* Who knows... perhaps it comes down to different use of language in different countries, but as far as I can see the fact that it starts off with an 'Oi' and then later goes on to complain about the 'long assed' summary is anything but friendly or helpful, and I'm obviously not the only person who interpreted it that way.

I just wanted to say that as a fellow Australian I don't think you (Always_jbj) can use the 'language of different countries' as the reason for this misunderstanding. I thought the comment from EAS was expressed with her usual sense of humour. I didn't see any disrespect for the author at all. I CAN see that some people may not share her humour, but that is something else entirely. What I found disrespectful of the Author was the answering 'review' that was directed at EAS and not the author of the fic that was being reviewed. For that alone I feel that the Author deserves an apology, but not from EAS.

Using the review section to reprimand a reviewer is tasteless. I would expect better from a mod.

I was NOT using it as an excuse, simply as a POSSIBLE explanation...and as far as I am concerned there IS no misunderstanding... but whatever!

As for my 'review' I was simply welcoming the author to the BSV and letting her know that not everyone here is as obnoxious and unwelcoming as EAS...and I was doing so as ME...not as a MOD! My moderator duties end with validating or rejecting fics... anything after that is ME!!

The point is :

I'm sorry one of our members felt the need to be so petty and bitchy. Please feel free to ignore her. Welcome to the BSV!

This is not a review of the fic, this says nothing about the fic and so should not be in the review section. I am quite aware that you stated your opinion was yours and had nothing to do with your mod status, however, I would assume that a person whose abilities were such that they held the respected position of  mod would have the common sense not to use a review section for anything other than a review.  Had I been speaking to 'your moderator persona' I would have suggested that a thoughtful, respectful and considerate mod would have simply emailed EAS and suggested her words may have been misunderstood thereby giving the poor girl a chance to clarify.

You're right, it's not a review.  It was a welcome.  I have used the review form before to welcome authors to the BSV, especially authors of crossovers, as I don't read crossovers but I still like to say hello.  And I was deeply sorry that the poor girl's first impression of the BSV was to be harangued by EAS...so I expressed my regret that it had happened.

Gah!  - Man, you go to bed for the night and all hell breaks loose.:) 

Hey, Icemink, et al, your reply to my comment about "nice reviews" could have been written by me, as that has always been my contention - that reviews should, in fact, be genuine reviews.  So, I didn't express myself well -that's my fault.  What I was reacting to was the wording of the original "review"as well as the portion of the submission that it was addressing. Yes, BF does often make jokes about everything. However, they are also often misunderstood or taken the wrong way, and I too, even knowing that she probably didn't mean to offend or hurt anyone, was taken aback by the wording of the review which didn't address the fic itself, but complained about the summary.  I chose to sit on my hands; Always didn't.  Hence her disclaimer about it not being verse policy, but only her own opinion.

The verse doesn't have a policy that says reviews must be nice - however, we have been complimented often on the fact that most of our reviewers do say positive things or, at a minimum, offer intelligent concrit; so that's what I was referring to when I said we "pride outselves" on it.  We're not known as a place where there are frequent flames.(not saying that these were flames, by any means, just that they weren't softened by any thing positive) That's all I meant.  Not that reviewers weren't free to express their opinions respectfully. Unfortunately (the voice of experience speaking here *cough, cough*), intent is often not visible on the written page, and sometimes things that were meant to be taken with a wink and a smile just don't come across that way.  "Long-assed summary" just doesn't come across as concrit to me. *shrugs* Maybe it's a generation gap thing.

Verse submission policy being what it is, I think everyone can safely assume that any new writers have probably already heard all the concrit they care to by the time their fics actually go up. LOL (Hence the comment about evil, hard-hearted mods) 

The fact that the review forum became the place for some discussion that more properly belonged here, and that the next reviewer also offered unsolicited advice - without so much as a "this is interesting" or "I want to follow this" just struck me wrong.  It wasn't so much the concrit in the reviews that I objected to, as much as it was that the way it was given gave the poor writer no indication that the reader(s) had even gone so far as to read her chapter and I was afraid that her chapter would wind up with an ongoing discussion like this one taking place on the review page and totally overwhelming her fic with what appeared to be reviews, but were actually just people arguing with each other.

Makes sense?

 I can see Always' point about new writers getting freaked out.  I only started writing fic a couple of months ago, and suddenly I found myself bumping up against all these invisible rules and unspoken codes.  I tried to follow the general "style-guide" that seemed to be set in place by other writers when I started posting, but I still f'd up quite a bit at first.  Still lost with some of the lingo and such.  LOL, I still don't know what an "AN" is.

But in general people have been really kind and gentle to me, particularly here at BSV.  It's really helped my writing, and I know that if it wasn't for all the positive feedback I probably wouldn't have even attempted my story.  I think it takes a lot of courage to put your thoughts and ideas out there for all the world to see and, quite possibly, make fun of.  Not saying that happened here, but I do agree that the written word has the power to harm people in unusual and often unexpected or unintentional ways.

I also agree that not every review should necessarily be dripping with praise.  This is such a strange and wonderful way to write something, with instanteous feedback that can be used to polish your work and explore new writing tactics and styles.  I think that it could be really useful. But I don't think I could write a "bad" review, even if I become a veteran writer.  I think I just feel too insecure about my own stuff to do it.

I've been on the end of BF's dagger-like wit in the tag before, and in my case, I get the feeling she probably just doesn't like me.  Or senses that since I'm guy, I'm an easy target with my fragile, little guy-psyche.  Either way, it's okay, I can deal.  Some people can't.   I do think it would be a little humiliating to have what BF wrote as my very first review.  I definitely would have gone in, read the chapter, reviewed it thoroughly, then added the advice about her summary at the end of it as a helpful suggestion.  But that's just me.

It seems that the "long assed" part of the review is what's getting everyone in an upset, but that aside, the comment itself is helpful in the sense that, well, she was right.  The author made a mistake, and put information that should be put at the beginning at the first chapter in the summary.  Some people see the review as insulting, some don't.  But you know what, why don't we just see what the author has to say about it herself?  Maybe she will see it as helpful, and not be put out by it.  At any rate, usually people who give flames or not so constructive criticisms don't sign in when they do it, so as not leave themselves open...  I got one flame on here by "anonymous," and all it said was "ewwwwww..." which was to be expected, really, but I didn't get all upset about it. 

However, as an author, I expect all reviews, good or bad, constructive or not, to pertain to my fiction, and not anything else. Just my two, well, several cents...

NP, Ice Mink. I didn't word my first comment clearly and it got what it deserved. LOL   It did seem that the "discussion" was rapidly deteriorating into name-calling and I really, really didn't want that to take place on the review form, which is why I stuck my two cents worth in.  I just hope the author doesn't decide we are all lunatics and run away screaming. :)

The comment may well have been helpful - I don't know. I just skip stuff I don't feel like reading, so the length of a summary and what's in it really don't really bother me.  If it does turn off a lot of readers, then it was good information for her to have.

There is nothing at all wrong with constructive criticism ... but if an author is so obviously new to writing and new to the site, I really think it's rude to review the *summary* of their story (was the actual story read at all?) and to do so in what could easily be perceived a negative way. I'm not going to venture to pretend I know what the reviewer's intent was, but if I were the author (not knowing said reviewer or her "usual sense of humor") I would have felt quite downhearted by what she had to say. I agree with Always, "Oi" and "long-assed" seem to imply a lack of respect, whether they were intended to or not. And I'm an American, saying that, so it certainly isn't just Always being confused on the other side of the ocean.

Seriously, I'm not having a go at anyone. But a good policy here would be to not review a story unless you have actually read it. Don't review the summary ... don't review anything! That is not helpful. Just hold your peace and allow someone else ... someone who actually did read the chapter and who can say something constructive about it to tell the writer that maybe she should think about shortening/changing the summary. Or anything else for that matter. If you feel the need to comment even if you haven't read the story ... the review tag isn't the place. Send an email or IM. It's just common courtesy.

I agree completely with lostboy. Had that been my first review, I would have felt humiliated as well. I'm not saying anyone meant for the writer to feel this way, but, regardless, I can easily see that being the result of it.

I will choose to refrain from commenting on any conflict taking place, but I would like to post a link to a podcast episode that I feel contains valuable advice for writers concerning how they respond to reviews.  This podcast is called The Butcher Block, produced by Fred Hicks, and is about The Dresden Files and Jim Butcher.  Regardless of whether or not you are a fan of The Dresden Files, I believe that this is a good episode for every writer to listen to.

http://butcherblock.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=166873

Thanks for clarifying your point Patti.  And I agree, reviews should be reviews of the story.  If a reviews page turns into an argument between readers and it isn't even an argument about the story itself (cause I don't know about you, but I would be stoked if readers ever got into a debate on my review page about the plot/story itself, that would be the uber cool) it's not cool.  Because when an author goes to her email and sees: "You have a new review from the bloodshedverse" she's assuming, that she actually has a review...not an argument between other people over their personality conflicts.

Lostboy,

AN means: Author's Note.  And nice to see more testosterone around here.  This whole site could implode with all the estrogen. ;)  You are a brave soul.  I haven't seen wulfie around much lately, but he's the other resident male.  So just you and him that I'm aware of.

Patti, 

We ARE all lunatics.  We should just be upfront and honest about that so people know what they're in for. ;)

unbridled_brunette,

That poem at the bottom of your posts? where did you get that? it sounds familiar.  It rocks.  I wanna read it on my radio show next time I'm on the air and I need to know who to credit.

ZoeGrace, the name of the poem is "Resume" and it was written by Dorothy Parker. You probably recognize it from "Girl, Interrupted." Angelina Jolie recites it in that film. :)

YES now I remember.  hehe that's where I heard it lol.

UB, Zoey - I love that poem!  And almost everything else Dorothy Parker wrote - she was so witty.  I used to have a copy of it taped to my mirror during a very bad time in my life - it made me laugh instead of mope.

She's one of my favorites, too, Patti. I love "Oscar Wilde" and "Theory;" they're so wonderfully tongue in cheek. :D

Couple questions...

1) Did the author complain to the mods? If not, then it seems like something rather small has exploded into something huge. E.g, this "non-story" is suddenly headline news. Any conclusions drawn from the incident could have, theoretically, been addressed without naming names. A general, "Please be courteous to everyone!" post rather than outting the author and the reviewer.

2) Did ANY party attempt to solve this via email? Not just EAS, but author-to-mods, mods-to-author, mods-to-EAS, author-to-EAS. It seems like a lot of anger and confusion has been stirred by something that could have been handled privately at best.

3) Is the conclusion that once the mods pass a fic, it's no longer subject to scrutiny? (NOTE: I say this broadly and am not referring to a specific mod)

4) Has the author actually had a say in this?

I don't know EAS. I'm only vaguely familiar with her writing and I've seen a few of the reviews she's left for other stories. I can't vouch as to her alleged acerbic sense of humor...but reading the comments generated from whatever was said, I think there's been some miscommunication in all sides.

lol you would think that wouldn't you?  Turns out...online panties get wadded much easier than regular panties.  

"I'm in ur Fanficz stealin ur dramaz."  *insert cute kitten picture*

<i>you would think that wouldn't you?  Turns out...online panties get wadded much easier than regular panties.  </i> ROFL - Alas! So true,  Zoe. Although, as usual, you had the calm, "hey, whoa!" view of the mini-kefluffle.  I think it's pretty much done - and the author hasn't been frightened away - so all is good.

heh, I'm just sort of sitting back and laughing at all sides of it.  It's not that I don't care, it's just that online people completely let down their walls. They don't have the same social fears so they just let it all hang out.  I'm pretty much exactly the same online and offline.  I'll tell someone they're being a moron to their face or online.   But online at least in some areas I'm starting to get worked up less cause if you step back from the drama a bit, you see people are just being people.  And we all act like it's shocking when drama erupts but it really isn't.  Most of it is very predictable.

If I was a con-artist I would totally become a "psychic" so I could run around telling people "amazing" stuff which would be basically me just observing basic human behavior.

:get:

Necroposter!

I smite the! for not logging in before having a spew, its rude.. you didnt even leave ure mark upon it!

 They don't have the same social fears so they just let it all hang out. 

I'll agree with you to a point. I believe that 99.5% of people online do not act like they do in the real world, but who am i to say that it's only 99.5%, it could be as low as 85%,lol. I know for me I act the same way, but hey that's just how I am.

I think people tend to forget that there are other people sitting in front of their computer or laptop typing, chatting, etc. just like them. When they come across something or read something, they forget that it's actually a person with feelings who have taken the time to share something and they bash it. I don't think their doing it to be rude (not most of the time) but they forget and are only reacting on feelings and the fact that there is no person in front of them to remind them of the fact. (did that make sense?)