Did Buffy push Spike's button?

I think so.

This has probably been discussed before, but whatever- no reason to not bring it up one more time ;)

I disagree with James' assesment of the bathroom scene being a blatant attack, and that the unhealthiness of the relationship between Spike and Buffy was unhealthy because of Spike.  Buffy's ill actions caused Spike's reactions.  Had her actions been different (you know, sane) in season six, and had she treated their relationship as a real relationship- not something dark and disgusting and continuously tell Spike that he's evil, disgusting, a thing, etc., then I'm willing to bet none of the "dark" moments of season 6 between the two of them, especially the bathroom scene would have never occured.

Anyone agree or... disagree?

(Warning- impending self pimp)

If you don't agree, then check out my fic All the Way and Then Some posted here ;)

I think James' assessment of that scene is based on his own (stated) dislike for rape scenes and the "story line" presented by the writers that Spike was unhealthy for Buffy.  The "canon" view is that Spike was evil and that he couldn't be worthy of Buffy until he had a soul.  Most of us disagree (and, read rahirah's LJ for my question about redemptionists and her response) - but that is the way it is presented in the Jossverse.  Apparently the argument over whether or not Spike needed a soul has been going on for many years and got quite ugly back in the day.  It became somewhat academic after he got his soul for her and the arguing has petered out to a large extent.

David Fury's explanation (at a Q and A at a con) is that it was necessary for Spike to do something so awful that it would drive him to get his soul because he couldn't be truly redeemed until he had suffered for his past evilness and that required a soul. Just saying - that's their version and it was their show. :)

Can't believe I'm going here 'cause these debates always get me riled up, BUT... :-)

I can't say that Spike put the dysfunction into the Buffy/Spike relationship all on his own.  I can't say that it was entirely Buffy's doing, either.  It takes two--count them: one, two--people to be in a relationship, otherwise we'd call it a onepersonship.  BOTH Buffy and Spike were there.  BOTH Buffy and Spike were responsible for their own actions.  BOTH of them put the "dys" in the dysfunction.  

I don't usually criticize other people's opinions, but I just don't see how anyone could look at all that happened between Buffy and Spike and lay all of the blame at Spike's doorstep.  Yes, Spike tried to pull Buffy into the shadows with him, but she didn't have to join him if she didn't want to.  Yes, Spike tried to cover up Katrina's death, but Buffy only tried to turn herself in to the police because she wanted to give up on life. Yes, Spike was a little too happy to be able to physically hurt Buffy when the chip no longer worked on her; but, please excuse my French, Buffy beat the ever-loving SHIT out of Spike all of the freaking time!  The worst, of course, was in that ill-fated alley where she pummeled his beautiful face into so much bloody hamburger, broke his compact, yet well-muscled body, and left him to kiss the sunrise, all because he had the audacity to love her :grr: Yes, Spike lost his last tenuous grip on his self-control and tried to force Buffy to have sex with him so that she could feel the love that she had denied so many times, but it was Buffy who used sex to use Spike, giving to him only her body, and treating him with less respect and consideration than one would give a blowup doll.

No one person was to blame for the things that happened.  Neither Spike nor Buffy was completely innocent or completely guilty.  Neither of them was playing with a full deck of cards at the time, but that's not an excuse, just an explanation.  Perhaps they both brought out the worst in each other in Season 6.  Perhaps it doesn't matter who's to blame.  What matters is that things went wrong, and eventually, they both did what they could in Season 7 to bring out the best in eachother.

As for Spike getting a soul, I personally don't believe that he needed one to do good, but I also don't believe that his lack of a soul caused him to do evil.  People all over the world rape, murder, and steal every single day, and all of them have souls.  I do agree that the only catalyst that would cause Spike to seek a soul would be to harm Buffy, and that, to Spike, earning his soul was his way to repent.  Maybe the creators of the Buffyverse can kid themselves into believing that those (fictional) soul-having people were all innocent, but they created the characters of Faith, Warren, Andrew, Angel, Giles, Willow, etc., all of whom had souls and all of whom committed at least one morally reprehensible act, some of them not even believing that they needed redemption.   So, to me, needing a soul to do good or to be redeemed never seemed necessary.  The writers may have intended to send that message, but that's not the picture that they painted.  That's not the picture that I saw.

Slaymesoftly- where's the link to that particular thread of LJ?

And IB- I agree, but think of it pre-kissing and pre-sex.  There wasn't anything all that dark or bad about their relationship.  When did it go sour? When the Spike bashing commenced, shortly after the kissing... that's how I strung it all back to Buffy with the relationship being so bloody awful cause it started with her verbal abuse.

It's true that the awful didn't start until after the second kiss.

Once Spike persisted in talking about it, then she started sniping back and picking up her "this can't happen" tirade. And then she jumped him.

Had Buffy said, after the second kiss, "You know what, we do have something between us.....and I don't think I'm in the right place for a relationship, but I need your friendship". 

If she'd been an adult about it, Spike wouldn't have been pissed off. He would have treated her like a queen if she'd only admitted that she needed his friendship, let alone anything else. Complete honesty would have prevented all the darkness that came later.

I can blame Spike for his REactions later, but Buffy did start the cycle. Thing is, Spike's a mirror of what you give him. He's going to reflect back what he's receiving.

CM

Wow, some good insights and observations on this subject.  No wonder we're all compelled to keep writing about these two and their relationship. :)

SI - I'll have to find it for you later. Have to go to work now. If you can find Rahirah's LJ, it would be sometime last week, I think.  She posted something about the Redemptionistas and I asked her what they were - her recap of the activities is in her reply to my comment.  I came into the fandom in an on-line kinda way after the dust was already settling, so missed much of it (or, I was my usual oblivious self and didn't know that it was going on. lol) It's interesting stuff and amazing that people can get so riled up about a make-believe character.

 the awful didn't start until after the second kiss

It was already crazy before the first kiss. In Once More with Feeling, Buffy stops by the crypt presumably for info (really because she wants to see him) and he sings to her that he wants to be left in peace and throws her out.  He immediately changes his mind when she goes.  (SPIKE: (spoken) So ... you're not staying then?)

Later:

BUFFY: I thought you wanted me to stay away from you. Isn't that what you sang?
SPIKE: (to Buffy, angrily) Fine. I hope you dance till you burn. You and the little bit.  (interesting that he includes Dawn)

Spike is about the most lame boyfriend in history.  Why doesn't he romance Buffy - give her candy, take her to the movies or dancing, be her friend and give her time to get used to the idea of being with him?  She's not at all adverse to spending time with him when she is revived from the grave, in fact, he's the only one she does want to spend time with. 

Of course, then he wouldn't be Spike.

I think it's because he knows that he's just a fill-in. He knows *she* doesn't think of him as a friend, because she's just using him as a moving journal to spill her secrets to, but he *was* a friend back to her. It's Buffy's push and pull that's driving him nuts. He *knows* she doesn't think of him as an equal, and it hurts.

And romancing her early in the season wouldn't work - it's too much pressure on Buffy, and he knows that. Even when she's spending time with him, it's still obvious by her mood that "I'm only here because I won't tell my friends the truth because they pulled me out of the grave. I wouldn't be giving you the time of day if I hadn't died."

CM

I have to agree with CM - the very fact that Spike did not put any pressure on Buffy is one of the reasons she was comfortable with him - and shocked when he blurts out in song that he's not happy about seeing her all the time (without it going anywhere). If he'd tried to romance her in normal fashion, she would have punched him in the nose, told him he was beneath her and run off.  He did exactly the right thing - he was there for her, even though he knew he was already being used. 

I plan to rewatch the DVDs this summer and take another hard look at season VI.  At this point, I'm not sure how much of the idea that Buffy wouldn't allow him to show any tenderness when they were having sex is canon and how much is fanon, based on the few glimpses we were given.  I want to watch carefully and see if there is ever any hint that they show affection during or after (granted, we do have Spike's comment during Dead Things that she should be "rushing off, virtue fluttering" to indicate that she isn't usually into basking in the after glow - but in that scene they are a bit after-glowly and it leads to more sex, so...).  I've written it both ways and want to see it there is any hint in the episodes that she gave him some crumbs before she left him. 

I agree with CM too- in fact, at the end of "Bargaining 2," and they're out in the alley, and he attempts to leave to give her a minute to herself, and she tells him "It's okay- I can be alone with you here."  Wow, how complimentary!  You're not that important Spike- it's like you're not even there.

I know! That was a really bitchy line.

There didn't really seem to be any tenderness around their sex scenes, to me.

Caro Mio

Slayme - i think in the post sex scenes, you don't see them touching each other.  In wrecked, Buffy wakes up clutching her skirt to her chest with that 'what have I done?' look on her face and they aren't touching.  In the scene with the carpets, they aren't touching, but they are talking, until Spike gets out the handcuffs, that is.  The worst is in As you Were.  After the sex marathon, you see them sleeping on top of the sarcophagous (I think), Buffy has her back to Spike and they aren't touching.

BUT - In Gone, in the scene where Buffy's invisible, she's teasing him and licking his ear.  And, in the kitchen scene, (same episode) he's got his hand on her butt and is playing with her hair when Xander comes in - and how is it that the Xan Man didn't notice that?

You're right, Tart.  Buffy and Spike are sleeping on top of the sarcophagus--separately--when Riley walks in.  No touching at all.  It's a very purposefully done contrast to when Buffy came to Spike with all of that tell-me-you-love-me crap.  If I wanted to show you just how freaky I am with remembering details, I'd tell you that Spike was lying on his back, and Buffy
has hers to Spike.  But I don't want to sound too obsessed, so I'm going to leave that part out ;)

The lack of intimacy was due to Buffy- she didn't want it that way.  Spike, since the first time we've seen him, has always been affectionate- pet names, holding hands... But Buffy forces him to hold back cause it makes her comfortable- it would make their relationship (or lack thereof) seem too real, and we all know how she copes with reality...  He tries to be close, which is why all of the holding and cuddling in s7 was so important (to him).

~Scarlet Ibis

LOL - nope, don't want to appear too obseessed, IB....

Yeah, it's pretty well-documented that there was no cuddling on her part - although he obviously would have liked to.  However, I see the convo in the rug scene a bit differently- they are talking and joking about her running off and who knows where that would have gone if he hadn't been stupid (duh!)and pointed out that they might be having a conversation.  When he asks if she even likes him, she kinda flirts when she says "sometimes" which may be about as close as she could come to admitting any affection for him.

And, yes, in the sarcophagus scene they are apart, but also barely covered and I know I'm not real big on cuddling if we're both hot and sweaty and it's a warm night.  So, the fact that they were apart as they slept didn't actually register on me as much as the fact that she had stayed there long enough for them both to fall asleep.

But this is what makes it fun to write about them - we can picture whatever we want happening between the scenes and then use that to send the story into the Spuffy direction that we want it to go. :)

Wow, these threads do tend to drift a bit, huh?  In any case, not sure what the deal is with "the button", but these all seem like good points.  The only thing I might add is that it seemed SMG did a lot more acting with her face and body in s6 then in any other season, and that seemed to tell the story between them more then the script could. 

 if we're both hot and sweaty

LOL Spike is room temperature - he's never hot and sweaty.