I have been thinking about this lately, and I have heard some people talk about how Spike went looking for his soul... is that true? From what I remember, he went to get the chip out of his head to "give the bitch what she deserves"... wasn't it the demon's choice to give him his soul? After the what happened between Spike and Buffy he was still very bitter.. he didn't ask for his soul, his soul was thrust upon him.....

Just my thoughts... Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?

Yeah, but the demon was also have said to know what a person really means, even if they don't say it outlouf. I've heard it said that he kind of unknowingly was really seeking a soul.

Harking back to the handsome gentleman on your avatar...he said when asked that question at a con, that Spike went to get his soul.  In fact, when the question asker argued with him (repeatedly) he finally snapped - "It's true because I say it's true and I'm the writer, dammit!"  LOL 

I think it was deliberately set up so that we would be thinking otherwise, but according to him (and Joss, I believe has chimed in) it was the plan all along.  Seeking his soul was Spikes first step toward redemption. 

SMS, I do understand that... I know that the Demon knew that he wanted to be a better man for Buffy, but sometimes people make it sound like he just went to Africa for his soul....  I don't know... LOL

  The question about the chip when he first went to see the demon was simply to mislead the audience so that the soul restoration would be a surprise.

  During the episode 'Beneath You', he finally confessed to Buffy that he went looking for his soul.  I think that while Spike was bitter while seeking for it, the reasons he said things like 'so that bitch can get what she deserves', was because part of the reason he was looking for it was to prove her wrong about him, prove that he could change if he chose to.  But he makes it obvious in 'Beneath You' that the soul is what he had been seeking all along.
 

From what I've heard/seen, most people use that as an argument for why Spike is better than Angel. Its the whole Angel was cursed but Spike fought for his soul thing. I think that Spike probably didn't know really what he wanted. In OMWF he can't figure out whehter he wants to kill her, save her, or both. I think that he didn't intentionally seek out his .soul, but he did fight that demon in order to get what he truly wanted and in the end, that happened to be his soul.

I understand what you all are saying. I just don't understand why the series put so much into having a soul. Spike did more for Buffy without a soul, than Angel ever did with his soul. The only good thing Angel ever did with his soul, was taking the day back so she wouldn't die. That was the only self-less thing that Angel ever did in my oppionion for Buffy. Spike almost died many times for Buffy and her family... I just hate that Spike is the "bad guy" because he didn't have a soul.... GRRRR

TwilightChild, yeah what you said makes a lot of sense. I'm not sure if, when he left, he knew exactly what he was going to do though. Spike has never been one for following through with a plan. I wouldn't be surprised if Spike didn't figure out what he was really there for until he arrived outside the cave to start the trials. :-)

Yep, I'm with you Jenna! Spike was 10x the man Angel was for the simple fact that he stuck around when everyone else bailed. Not only was he there helping Buffy out and taking care of her little sis even after she was dead and gone, he did it while being treated like less than dirt by pretty much everyone. Angel screwed up but he wasn't around to take the backlash. Unfortunately Spike got stuck carrying all the Angel baggage. Poor Spike.

Ditto to what TC said :-)  And to reiterate, that yes, Joss told him to play it as though Spike wanted the chip out so that the soul would be a surprise to viewers.

And to Jenna: I don't think ANY of us understand why the writers put so much emphasis on the soul.  My only guess is that they created Angel, the golden child, and made his soul such a big deal that, when they brought Spike into the picture, they had to make his non-soul just as big of a deal on the opposite end of the spectrum :-P  

But, as I've said many times before, that doesn't make sense.  Souled characters do morally reprehensible things all of the time (Giles murdered Ben, Willow flayed Warren, Warren killed Katrina and tried to kill Buffy and accidentally killed Tara, Faith killed anything that moved, Xander raised Sweet who then killed people, etc.).  Most of them never so much as apologized, and none of them were treated with the disdain that Spike was.  However, I do think that if Spike had come BEFORE Angel--before his pesky soul took a vacation, before he killed Ms. Calendar, before he turned their lives upside down--and the Scoobies could have been exposed to soulful, if soulless, Spike, then perhaps they wouldn't have been so cruel to Spike.  With that in mind, I think that maybe the writers painted themselves into a corner with the whole Angel + soul = good, Angel - soul = evil, thing.  By the time Spike came into the picture, neither the writers nor the Scoobies were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt :-P

I, of course, don't care what they meant to do with Spike or that they tried to portray him as evil and soulless because, with or without a soul, he's soooo much better than Angel.  So, there! :P

Well said IB!

The emphasis of the soul just pisses me off... GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Just wanted to say that when I think on it, it should've been obvious he was going for the soul and not chip removal, cause if he wanted to hurt Buffy, he didn't need the chip gone for that... Hell, he could've just taken the Angelus route, and played horrible mind games with her.

And, the writers admit that Spike's better when he's on Angel's s5- there are so many incidents where it comes up, and who the better champion really is.

And what I find most hypocritical is that no one seems to point out how Anya never lost *her* soul, and yet managed to kill thousands of people and even started a war (or revolution), and chose to become a demon twice (and Spike never chose to be a vampire) and yet Xander just harps on how bad Spike is all throughout s6.  Utterly ridiculous.

Does anyone else feel like we're having the same discussion on like, six different threads? (Spike vs. Angel)

As far as the question posed by the original post... the intention of the writers was that Spike went purposefully to get the soul. Getting the chip out was a deliberate mislead that, IMO, they played a little too heavy-handed.

Does anyone else feel that saying that Spike went to get the chip out cheapens the whole "he fought for his soul" idea? If he thought he was going through trials to get the chip out (regardless of what he "really wanted" that the demon may or may not have sensed from him), how is that earning his soul? He fought for something else, and was tricked. 

Aside from that, going to Africa to get the chip out doesn't make a whole lot of sense. First of all, why seek out a mystical solution to a scientific problem? His first idea (kidnapping the Initiative doctor in season 5) was better... he just needed a smarter sidekick than Harmony, lol. And second, how would getting the chip out allow him to "give Buffy what she deserves"? He can already hurt Buffy with the chip... I suppose he could kill all of her friends, but he could've paid someone to do that long ago. I can understand why he'd want the chip out, but I don't understand why this burning desire to go to Africa to get it out would suddenly come out of that particular situation.

To sum up, deliberately getting the soul makes more sense to me at that point.

They probably never remark on the Anya fact, because they want Angel to be seen as the golden child. If they admit that Anya, and thousands of others kill with souls, than he won't seem so golden.

The emphasis on the soul has always pissed me off. Also, calling Spike a murder. Is it really murder when people are your food source? People, except for vegetarian's, don't call themselves murders for eating beef, or chicken, or pork. They don't call a lion a murder for eating a gazelle. If just never made sense to me to call it murder.

Scarlet, that's exactly the reason why I'm not too fond of Xander post Season 3: He's the biggest hypocrite ever to be written.  He even admits to still loving Anya after she becomes a demon the second time, but he never even thinks that Buffy could love Spike.  Did he think that Buffy loved Angel when she had to kill him?  NO!  He withheld the fact that Willow was trying the en-soulling spell, and outright lied about what Willow's message to Buffy.  Yes, Buffy does confront Anya with the (supposed) intent to kill her, but Xander is all, "She's Anya!  You can't kill her!  I love her!"  And before anyone says, "Vengeance demons don't have souls," let us remember that, when Anya tells D'Hoffryn that she wants to take back what she did to the frat boys, he tells her that that requires the life and soul of a vengeance demon. 

Okay, I'd better stop before I get riled up :grr:

If I remember correctly, wasn't Spike originally supposed to just be a guest appearance? He was never supposed to become such a significant part of the show and the writers had already laid the foundation, as was said before, with the whole soul=good and no soul=bad. Spike got screwed, we all know it.

Another thing that the scoobies never address in their whole demon=evil humans=good mentality is how the slayer, girl whose power has demonic origins, fits into that.

Back to Spike and his soul though, whether or not he went to get the soul intentionally or if he just went to "give Buffy what she deserves" he was still going through nearly impossible trials to be the man that BUFFY needed him to be. I don't think that statement was meant to suggest he would be killing her (like everyone mentioned he could do that with or without the chip). He did it for Buffy, that in and of itself shows a level of devotion which is to be commended.

If you really want to know if Spike went to Africa for his soul, then watch "Villains."  The demon chastises Spike for having the um...guts to demand restoration.  Anyone who remembers season two will remember that the spell that Jenny wanted to give Angel, and Willow preformed, was one of restoration of the soul.  Spike went there for his soul, hands down.

Yep, he was always going there for the soul. They just wanted to do a dramatic TV thing with the vagueness.......that really wasn't that vague!

And the writers have admitted at cons that the character of Spike made things harder for them, because they WON'T totally chip away at Angel's integrity as a character. They knew Spike could have handled not being souled and a good guy, but it would have degraded what Angel was too much (in their minds). So, they wouldn't allow Buffy to love or accept him without the soul, or say that Spike was a good guy without the soul.

But really, we all know they're just really screwed up on the whole "soul issue".

CM

Soul-shmole.

 Does anyone else feel that saying that Spike went to get the chip out cheapens the whole "he fought for his soul" idea?

Yep - it was a cheat.  The real question tho is how did Spike get to Africa on a motorcycle?

ROFL at Spikez_tart.

I always wondered that? In Angel he said he'd never been on a plane, so he couldn't have drove to an airport and took a plane. And it seemed like he got the soul at about the same time Willow was trying to end the world, so, if he went by boat, how did he only get to Africa in like maybe two or three days? He have to drive to the east coast first, and that takes over a week, plus he could only drive at night, so it would take even longer for him. It doesn't make any sense.

Remember, there are docks in Sunnydale.  And, the only reason the writers had Spike go to Africa for his soul, instead of staying in town, is because, at the time, James Marsters was being considered for a part in one of the "Harry Potter" films.  Africa would have explained his absence, had he gotten the part.

FetchingMadScientist

True. What part was he being considered for in Harry Potter? I would have liked to see him in those movies.

Crazy Spike says something about being in a "sodding engine" in the church in "Beneath You."  So, that sounds like a ship.  I'd assume that he got to Africa the same way.

Harry Potter??????  I have no idea which part, but, if I'm speculating, I'd guess Lucius Malfoy.  But I don't remember which movie was being filmed at the time...

No, it wasn't Harry Potter. It was for a Star Trek film. It came down to him, or the British actor that got the part.

He'd always stowed away on ships to cross the Atlantic before. And you can drive across the country in 37 hours if you only stop for gas.

CM

The whole chip thing was a plot twist, Joss said so. Spike went to get his soul because he thought it's what Buffy wanted.

But he would have to stop for the sun, since he was on a bike.