I really am curious to go in-depth with this question and see other people's views pro/con.  This came out of a reply in another post, but I felt like maybe I was going a bit Off Topic, so decided to edit that post down and start a new thread with it.

I don't think i've ever written one where there wasn't claiming.  On the one level it could seem like an overused bit of fanon, but on the other hand...

To me...in a vampire fic, in order to have really had sex with a vampire, biting needs to happen at some point.  Maybe not every time, but at least every now and then.  Because it seems to be part of the sexual act with vampires in general.  In some vampire mythologies their bite pretty much IS the equivalent of sex, like with Anne Rice. (Spike's disdain for the writer notwithstanding lol.)   So to me, biting is a big thing and I may as well be reading an all human fic if the fangs don't come out. (although there are exceptions to this rule and I wouldn't kick a non-biting spike out of bed. ;)

As for claiming... well once you've bitten someone and shared/given blood like that...once you've created some kind of link...and even without a claim I think vampire mythology in general...there is some kind of link formed.  For them to just "go steady" or "be together" or even "get married" seems a bit anticlimactic.  It's like they aren't really fully "together"  unless a claim is in place, IMO.

Also, on some level, since I'm not a huge fan of Spike with a soul, I feel like the psychic link is necessary to make it possible to really trust long term.  Part of this is for Buffy, but a lot of it is for the Scoobies.  If we want ANYONE to accept him, there needs to be some kind of insurance in most cases.  

I mean even with Spike who he is...he doesn't have a soul and that psychic link is extra reassurance so to speak.  Especially if Buffy gets together with an earlier season Spike.  I think the claim can be used as a catalyst to link him to her in such a way that his desire to kill is lessened, so  he isn't necessarily doing it just for love, but because the desire is there less because of the way both of them are influencing the other through the claim. (Plus I've always thought Buffy needs to access her darker side in a healthier way and the claim can foster that.)

Also it seems to me ridiculous to find your soul mate only to know that your life spans are so seriously out of whack with each other.  Buffyverse fanon isn't the first vampire mythos to create human companions who gain immortality through the link of a certain type of bite.  And I feel like Buffy really needs to be immortal as well to be with Spike long term.  To me it's cruel to give her to him if he can't turn her and she'll just age and die on him.  For me it's not a fully happy ending unless they have the potential to literally be together forever.  And yes, in other genres of romance this isn't necessary, but then, all humans age and die, it's the cycle of life.  With a vampire, those rules change.

And yeah, I know claiming has nothing to do with the buffyverse itself.  I'm actually pretty surprised it's become such a strong and enduring piece of fanon.  But to me it's part of the vampire mythology that just has to be included.  Not that I won't ever read or enjoy non-claimy or non-bitey fics, but in many ways it feels incomplete.

I like a well-written story... I don't care if it is a claim-fic, a biting fic, or a non-bitey fic as long as it is well-written.

As for the claim... as it is a fanon thing and has absolutely no grounding in canon there are no hard and fast rules to it... and I have read many different authors with many different takes on a claim. They certainly don't all give Buffy an extended life span.

Right, that's a good point.  All claim stuff is gonna be different.  And a claim doesn't necessarily mean immortality.  Although it's becoming a more popular feature (but then again it might be kind of like owning a certain kind of car, suddenly you see it everywhere.)

I also don't care about biting as long as the fic is well-written and true to the characters.  I don't think I had given it any thought at all until I found the verse because it had nothing to do with Joss's version of the characters.  Then I began using claiming a lot just because everybody else was, but I vary it from fic to fic. I figure, it's a made up event about imaginary creatures, so I can do whatever I want with it. LOL  I have hinted that Buffy becomes very long-lived in one or two fics, but I haven't belabored it. (hee - I haven't seen the immortality thing in any other fics - did I start it? LOL) Now, I use it if it seems appropriate to the story, and I don't if it isn't.  I don't think it has to be there; although, I do like the idea of Spike and Buffy having something that permanently binds them together. If, for no other reason, than the fact that it shows that she does love and trust him.  

ZoeGrace and I have had a variation on this discussion before, but here goes...

I'll take bitey and claimy separately :)

I can certainly imagine biting as part of vampire sex.  I think as an author you have to ask yourself whether your Buffy would allow it, whether your Spike would try it, etc.  In BT, there's no way Spike is bringing it up because he's really wants Buffy to see him as a man, so he's not real eager to remind her that it isn't so. 

Claimy can be done well, certainly.  However, as I've mentioned to Zoe before, I think if there is claiming you have to explain why in a century Dru and Spike never claimed each other.   And you can tell me your Dru never loved Spike, but canon Dru did (IMO).    I'm also just not big on the permanant magically bound marriage thing, which is just something that either floats your boat or doesn't.  And in my case... not so much  :)

heh patti, I usually use a similar claim mythology, but sometimes it's different a little bit for the needs of the story.  You very well could have started the immortality concept for buffyverse fanon, but that concept has been around awhile in general vampire mythology.  More recently it's been used and updated by Laurell K. Hamilton.

Oh yeah, the idea that vamps can bite people and create life-long companions has been around - you are quite right.  I just never connected it with claiming.

And (whispers) please don't use my name and LKH in the same post - I think she's awful and I am very disturbed that she's getting rich from it. LOL

MsClawdia, definitely yes, it depends on the story, and where the characters are in their story.  For me it's a big thing that Buffy accepts the vampire side of Spike, instead of pretending he's a human with body temperature issues.  But from Spike's perspective, depending on the time of the story it's a great point that he wants her to see him as a man, so he might be more hesitant about the biting.  Unless we're dealing with an earlier season Spike, the acceptance necessary to have biting is going to have to come from Buffy first for Spike to be willing to go there.  I think he would want to go there, but you're right, depending on where the characters are, he would resist that urge.

And yes, BT Spike wouldn't bite Buffy I don't think.  Which is probably part of why I can accept it as not a bitey-fic.  Cause it would be out of place in that story.

hehe I like the permanent bound marriage thingy heh.  Anyway...as for the why Spike and Dru never claimed each other...I'm not sure if I've ever explicitly mentioned it in anything I've written, but it's my view that Claims are usually more of a thing you do with someone you aren't otherwise bound to.  The sire/childe bond in some ways would be equivalent to a claim if there was love there.  And perhaps one could interfer with the other...like mixing magics or eating pizza with milk.  It's not the exact same thing of course, but I think having the S/C bond would make it less likely that it would go fully to claiming.

But IMO the claimy thing in general is more of a vampire thing for if you want a human to stay with you forever for whatever reason, but you dont' want them to be a vampire.  Whether this is in various mythologies due to clan rules regarding turned humans (vamp population control), the fact that you prefer them as a human (nice warm body, blood on tap, heartbeat, human fears and vulnerabilities...some vamps would get off on that), or you need them to be able to go out into the daytime as your eyes and ears in the places they can't be...it would vary.  But I've never seen claims as a super necessary thing between two vampires.  Especially not two that already  have the sire/childe bond.  To me you wouldn't screw with one to institute another even if there was love there.

It's like to turn someone is to claim them, just in a different way.  Like if you want a vampire mate, you take the Sire/Childe route, if you want a human, you do the claim. (and yeah there are differences like if dru dusts, spike won't die, whereas in a lot of claim fics if spike dies, buffy dies, but then tying a human's lifeline to a vampire's is likely to cause issues like this...especially when they get past the point where they would have normally lived to agewise.)

As for whether or not Dru loved Spike...I think she loved him as much as she was capable of loving him, but I think he would always stand in the shadow of her daddy, and even if my own personal mythology on the claim thing wasn't what it was, I don't think she would ever do that with Spike because she wouldn't want anyone to interfere with her potential to get back to her daddy.  Angelus is "It" for dru. 

And dru is not known for faithfulness...anything that wreaks of eternal marriage she isn't on board for.  Angelus.  Chaos Demons, etc.

hahaha Patti.  Yeah i always just thought it was the same idea, diff language. ;)  Oh also...yeah LKH (sorry I said it and your name in the same post, but it was necessary lol.)...I think her work has turned into vamp and were/everything orgy porn...but the sex is kind a hot...she lost the plot way back...but if all you want is a smut-a-thon. hehe ;) 

OK shutting up now.

oh also...on mutual claims.  i don't think that's been around in vampire mythology in other forms before (though i could be wrong.)  I can buy a Slayer returning a claim with a vampire.  I'm not sure I could buy anyone else returning it, like Willow.  

Thoughts on mutual claims?

OK i know this is excessive, really shutting up after this, but about LKH, the porn isn't so bad, it's the mary sue that anita blake has become.  I don't like that she's the freaking queen of everything now.  Like could she possibly rule over more? I prefer  underdogs and she's not one anymore.  Plus I feel like a good heroine (just like a good hero) needs flaws, weaknesses, vulnerabilities...it's not good enough to keep making the hero psychotically more strong, and then bringing in even worse villains...both heros and villains are becoming caricatures.  Now i'm going to step away from this thread until someone else speaks lol.

I have to say I like the claimy fics.  I especially enjoy the ones that take a new or different approach to claims.  That is to say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the "classic" fanon claim:  bite, mine, yours, i sense your thoughts/feelings/presence, etc."  It's very popular because it works.  But if an author can manage to pleasantly surprise me with a new take, I'm usually very impressed.

In classic claimings, I think I like mutual claims more than one-sided ones.  I guess you could say I like "mating" fics the best.  I like it when they are about equality and intimacy.  Of course, my inner cave-woman does like it when a fic can start out with a one-sided claim, preferably by Spike, just for the oh-take-me-now-you-savage-beast factor, but I like it best when it rounds out with Buffy claiming him back, and even better when she can get some of her own back.

I agree with Zoe about the whole Slayer aspect.  Not only is it a major factor in the hotness of Spuffy, that whole Slayer/Vampire thing, but I think I've always subconsiously explained Spike and Buffy claiming each other as being possible because of their similar supernatural natures.  I also think it would help explain why an independent woman like Buffy would even want to belong to anyone, because the Slayer in her responds to the demon.

Now, all that having been said, I will also happily read a good story with absolutely zero bitey/claimy, and I will also happily read a bitey-but-no-claimy story.  If it's good, it's good, regardless of the plot devices used.

LMAO coquine @ "Of course, my inner cave-woman does like it when a fic can start out with a one-sided claim, preferably by Spike, just for the oh-take-me-now-you-savage-beast factor,"

FREAKING YES! hahahahaha. LOVE it. That cracked me up! heh

Don' care either way. Like sms, whenever there's a claim, it reassures me that they are comitted to each other and I always love that. Besides some of the steamest sex scenes have been during a claiming. Also it sends a signal to Angel to f**k off, Buffy's his, which I totally love.

See the eternal part of the claim is the only thing that bugs me,  I have a fic sort of almost started that has several Spuffy couples from alternate futures appearing in season 4,  among them a pair that Spike loses his imortality willingly to be with Buffy, A mated Spuffy pair that have been together a thousand years and now loathe each other,  a pair that live in a world that the matings only last a hundred years each and are just through their forth mating and while they intend to remate are having problems,  of course there are also still happily mated couples :P

redwulf, that's an interesting take. I'll be interested to see that when it's beyond the almost started stage :)

LOL,  I have five WIP's currently,  two of which I can finish both of with just four chappies :P  and I am gonna do that before I post anything new.  <b>Then</b>  I have six fics already started but not posted one with Jack of Spikes and another with Taasha lol,  then four more with at least five chapters each, one called "Vallahala"  I promised Tam I would finish first :P.

then I have this fic and three others that are fully outlined beginning to end.  sooooo...

That's a good idea wulfie.  I like that twist on the claim.

   For me the whole claim thing really depends.  I like the depth it ads to a vampire story in general, my only problem with it is that it really isn't something that seems to be mentioned in Buffy or Angel.  If you put it in an Original vampire fic it seems just fine.  If you put it in a Buffy or Angel fanfic it just doesn't seem to fit.  

  Then again, the writers of Buffy and Angel never seemed to take vampires all that seriously to begin with, even if they were such main characters.  The writers of both shows took more AWAY from vampire lore than they ever gave to it, pretty much writing them off as just soulless, bloodthirsty, two demensional villians, except for the rare exceptions like Angel and Spike.

  But if you change the nature of the characters then you kinda do a dishonor to the story, so I just pretty much stay away from the whole claim thing, unless its in my original vampire fiction.

  But the biting....come on, that's just fun.

Vampires have been around since man could form words. In so many cultures the vampire has appeared. Of course, through so many differant regions, the vampire was changed. Looks, acts, speaks, mind or no mind control. LOL there are so many differant form of vampires but the the ONE thing that never changes is the bite.  Vampires bite.  A dog or cat licks.  That is one aspect that will never change.  I have tried reading non-bitey  ficks and just cant get into them.

  I am short changeing myself for not reading those stories. I am sure they are all superb.  I just fell in love with the concept of biteing and claiming. Face it, we are all looking for love, in one form or another.  To me, claiming is the ultimate act, to bind urself to someone for all eternity,, wow. Frankly, it better be your soulmate, who the ^%&^ would wanna be stuck with someone you realize that they snore or worse. Ha, Ha, Ha.

    I am always looking for the best in biteing, claiming, feral and PURRING spike stories out there.  I have no perference for a season or timeline.  Though i do wish ther was more stories for season seven and for training and being around the potentials.  I believe that has alot of ideas or areas to be explored.

   So now I hop off of my soap box and bid you all adeu, if anyone knows of any great stories with lots of purring let me know. thanks.

It doesn't matter if the fic includes them or not. If its a good story I will love it no matter what. I do like my Spike to be all fangy and bite, but again it doesn't have to be there.

I do agree that sharing of blood is part of vampire sex, as is some violence as well, but I couldn't see ensouled Spike acting in such a way with Buffy. Maybe season 2 Spike or even season three.

The whole clamining front. Since it isn't canon and is fanon, to explain why Dru and Spike never claimed each other, I look at it this way. Yes Dru loved (loves) Spike, but her heart belongs to her 'Daddy', and therefore she would want to leave her self open for him. Hence the none acceptance of Spike's claim upon her. But then that leaves open why Darla and Angelus never claimed each other *giggle*

BTW, does anyone know how the purring got started?

I love the purring.  I use the purring often.  <.<  >.>

  But I think it pretty much came from all the noises that the vampires made on the show.  If they can growl in so many different ways, why not purr?  And besides, I think Spike actually did purr once.  I'm not entirely sure, but it was a scene from School Hard.  Right after Drusilla had walked into the factory and Spike realized she was there behind him, it sounded like he made a small purring noise before turning to face her.  I could be wrong.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=urA2iwjrXuA

  The scene is on youtube.  I could be wrong about the purr, but you guys watch and let me know if you think it is one.

I just left youtube, but it keeps sucking me back in,lol. But I do love purring Spike!

Yup, that sounded like a purr to me, but I could be wrong.

In regards to Spike never have bitten Buffy...  Who's to say he didn't?  He clearly didn't on an obvious place such as her neck, but he has tasted her blood.  I say this because in s7, when he's possessed by the first and those vamps he made were holding Buffy in the cellar, he had no recognition of her.  Her scent, her voice, it made not a difference to the possessed Spike until he tasted her blood, alluding to the fact that he indeed had it before.  It wasn't just human blood, or Slayer blood, but when he looked up, he realized that it was Buffy.  In all of their sexcapades in s6, I'm sure that at some point, he had a taste in some shape or form...

Me personally I'm not pro-feminist, I have issues with the whole thing. But this is not the place to get into that. I love claiming as well. But if there are side effects in a fic, then I like it when they both have it. Like Spike can read her thoughts, and Buffy can read his etc. But I rather have a claim that's just that, they've claimed each other, are eternal mates, but no miding reading, etc. Maybe some small link where they can feel each other but that's all.

I do believe that during their time together Spike did bite Buffy. I mean his chip didn't work on her, she was walking the dark side, plus blood and sex go hand in hand with vamps. So I think he could have turned her on to letting him do that to her.

Scarlet Ibis, that's an interesting idea, that he might have bitten her off screen at some point.  He could have just scented her blood in that season seven ep and known it was hers because he'd smelled her blood before, but yeah, he could have tasted her.  In that season 7 ep, did she get cut, or did he actually bite her?  I love that scene. It makes me twisted and wrong but I love it lol.

GB I hope you're right, I hope he DID bite her lol.  But I would have loved to have seen it on screen.  Or even alluded to heavily on screen.  

And OMG you can't say you aren't "pro-feminist" and just let that lie there.  Start another thread or make an LJ post...SOMETHING heh. 

...heee...I don't post often, but here i' goes...

I may be a minority here, but I tend to shy away from claim fics.  I don't like it when Buffy gets made into the victim because of Spike's sexual prowess (i.e. hating herself because she can't resist or Spike having control over her because he claimed her).  Even in fics where Buffy is perfectly happy with the situation I get turned off because it feels like abuse to me, it's like she's become so deluded that she doesn't care about her own natural rights and lets Spike manipulate her.

I do, however, like "equal-opportunity" claims, but not when they're like now-that-we're-mated-I-can't-resist-you.  That just doesn't feel real to me.  I have to feel like Buffy and Spike are attracted to and eventually fall in love with each other as individuals before they're radically changed by the claim.

Yeah, so I guess I am a bit of a lady-ist.

Zoe, she was cut during the fight by Spike with a shard of glass.  While the vamps were holding her, he smelled her blood, but didn't snap out of it until he tasted her.  I think there was definitely some secret biting going on in s6, and maybe even um... non-bitey moments (gross, but he is a vampire).  And come to think of it, Spike did say "I know where you live now, Slayer.  I've tasted it."  Could have been in every sense of the word, or just orally.  I still think it was both ;)

As for claim fics... I just don't like when they make Buffy bend to Spike's will-- "Oh, why am I acting like this?  Oh, curse you, claim!"  kind of deal.  I wrote a fic where Spike bites her, but Buffy is really the one who does the claiming, although, she was "cave Buffy" at the time.

Zoe you know I'm right ;) lol, he bit her. And if it never happened then we fix it.

Scarlet that's a good point too, the line. I'm taking it at face value, he bit her more than once. 'Cause, well, I like the bitting, lol. As for the fics with Buffy not being able to hold out because of the claim. I don't like that either, unless its well written, then I can believe it. But I like it were they're just themselves plus a claim in effect. Does that make sense?

LMAO scarlet.  I'm not sure if she would have let spike have non bitey blood. bwahahahahahaha. She's awfully prim and proper for that...even if...like you said, he's a vampire. ;)

hehehe.  I usually make Buffy in some way bend to Spike's will, either through the claim or not.  Because she's been a naughty kitty and she must be punished! :)

To answer Zoe's question, I'll read the story no matter what, if it's good.  I like bitey and vampires - it really does go together.  Biting is a metaphor for sex at least since Dracula was published.  As for claiming, it should contribute to the story in some way, not just be - oh, Spike claimed her. 

Re Spike biting Buffy - it must happen after Wrecked because:

SPIKE: Not yet. But I'm in your system now. You're gonna crave me, like I crave blood. And the next time you come crawling, if you don't stop being such a bitch, maybe I will bite you.

Thank you for the compliment verity.  The claim is being used in a very dark way in FA. 

Also, love your icon. :)

hehe.  maybe spike DID bite her sometime after wrecked.  hehe.  A punishment bite. meow.  ;)

Yes, we all love Zoe claim, it's awesome. But it feeds my kink so of course I'd love it. Waiting for an update too. Punisment bites are good too. Spike bit her, we all know it. lol.

hehehe GB it's in the email inbox of the beta, so hopefully sometime within the next few days I'll get to post it.  I think you'll like this next chapter. :)

Dances the Dance of Joy. I can't wait. I really should be working on my fic too. lol I'm a slacker.