Ok, like Zoe, I'm taking this somewhat tangential subject onto a new thread so that the other can stay semi-focused on its original question(s).  Right, good luck with that. lol

Anyway, on the original thread, there is a great deal of what - if I wanted to be uncharitable - I would call Buffy-bashing.  Now, I'm not going to defend Buffy's season VI behavior (other than to blame it on the writers); but I would like to offer a few things in her defense.

I've been a Buffy fan from the very beginning.  Because I didn't watch the shows in chronological order until sometime in season IV or V, I wasn't wildly into the whole Angel thing (because, Spike - yum). However, when I started watching the episodes, beginning in season I, in order - I sort of was right there with Buffy every step of the way.  Sad for her that Angel left, hoped Riley would work out (until Spike had his dream).  I watched her grow and suffer and have to deal with things that no one that age should have to deal with; and yet, she remained quippy and perky and focused on her job. And heroic. She did her best to deal with whatever the world or the PtB threw at her.  And sometimes it made her cranky. Go figure.

As her life got steadily suckier  - kills boyfriend, gets him back but only for two seasons, boyfriend leaves after probably screwing other slayer, boyfriend almost kills you, yada yada.   Finds new boy friend is not what he seems (Ok, neither is she, but she's the hero, dammit!), has insecurity issues with strong girlfriend, gets suck jobs from vamp whores and leaves when she calls him on it. Sister magically appears and must be defending from hellgod while mother is ill and former said boy friend is having his crisis. Tame vampire that she has been using as backup muscle to protect sister and mother turns out to have a crush on her and must be banned from home.  Declares his love by hitting with tazer and chaining her up.  Mom dies. Hellgod appears to win, snags Dawn. Slayer solves problem by dying and going to eternal rest. Oops! No eternal rest - back to Sunnyhell where friends want praise for yanking you from Heaven. Surprise! Evil has not retired and it's back to work for the Slayer.  Former crushing vampire, turned supportive friend, turned sister babysister and Scooby helper becomes favorite companion until a spell makes him confess (musically) that he is unhappy with his role. And so forth. 

Here's my thing - I think you can watch Buffy become steadily more unhappy and more weighed down with her life as the series goes on.  So, although I don't like much of what she does in season VI (hence, the six trillion stories I've written "fixing" it), I rarely dislike her for it.  I feel sorry for her - she has this wonderful man who loves her so much and who wants to help her, and her life has warped her so badly that she can't allow herself to appreciate or enjoy him.

As an example, I give you the episode that first really made me angry at her for the way she treated Spike. Crush.  Broke my heart when they got back to her house and he found that he'd been banned. (I do think that was a bit precipitous - at that time she didn't yet know that he'd been stalking her)  And of course, her "the only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious". How mean was that?  Let's take a look at that situation, though.  She is on her way over to find out if he really is crushing on her, and to tell him it's not going to happen.  There has been a massacre earlier in the day, just to cement the thought that vampires = bad.  She finds his shrine - Ok, shrine - nice thought , maybe - stealing clothing, pictures, whatever from her house and putting them on a mannequin - kinda icky.  Realizing how much he has been stalking her - also icky. Then she goes to leave, somewhat freaked out by what she has seen (and, justifiably so, I would posit) and who does she run into but Spike and his former girlfriend - with blood on their faces. Comes to in chains and has to listen to rant about how much he loves her while he threatens to kill either old girl friend or to let old girlfriend kill her.  When I look at all that, I think it's a wonder that all she did was tell him he wasn't welcome at her house anymore.  No stake?  

And yes, she was also nasty to him in the "you're beneath me" scene in a previous episode and that made me sad for Spike - but that's because I already knew that he was in love with her (and that he'd heard those words before). Buffy didn't. All she knew was that he had demanded money for giving her the info she needed, had poked her when he realized she was hurt, and had bragged about killing his slayers. So, all things considered, while it was hard on Spike, she had no reason to be worried about his feelings.  He hadn't yet done anything to indicate that he had any.

So, to sum up, while I cannot disagree that Buffy treated Spike like shit for most of season VI - I blame much of it on the events that led up to that season, as well as on the canon excuse that she had been "finished" and at peace and was now in a deep depression.  People suffering from depression often strike out at others.  As Buffy became more "normal" she began to treat Spike a bit better and she seemed genuinely sorry when she broke up with him.  Which she did because she knew she had been using him and didn't want to do that to him anymore. Granted, she was hurting him badly - but in her eyes, she was doing the right thing.  I didn't get the feeling that she was breaking up with him because of the Sulvite eggs - that just reminded her that she was raising unrealistic hopes in someone whom she was sure she could never allow herself to love. She was actually nicer to him after they broke up than before.  Up until the "you need to move on" speech which I did think was unnecessarily mean, but I don't remember what came before it.

Okay - this got waaay too long and I'm hungry, so that's it. Dispute, discussion? I may or may not pop back in to comment - I'm really just curious to see how others respond. 

Here's my thing - I think you can watch Buffy become steadily more unhappy and more weighed down with her life as the series goes on.  So, although I don't like much of what she does in season VI (hence, the six trillion stories I've written "fixing" it), I rarely dislike her for it.  I feel sorry for her - she has this wonderful man who loves her so much and who wants to help her, and her life has warped her so badly that she can't allow herself to appreciate or enjoy him.

I disagree.  We all know how passionately and how strongly Spike loves.  On top of that, he's incredibly sexy and good looking, and can help her patrol without her having to worry about him getting seriously injured.  Why not *enjoy* one of the few things that finally start to go right in your life after the countless bad things that have happened?  The one person you can talk to, and won't abandon you?  Why would one abuse such a thing?  I'd thank my lucky stars if all that had happened to me, but at the end of the day, I have someone I can count on to be there for me, and just let me be myself, and loves me.  Why be angry at that?

As an example, I give you the episode that first really made me angry at her for the way she treated Spike. Crush.  Broke my heart when they got back to her house and he found that he'd been banned.

I just thought it should be pointed out that she only did the dis-invite spell *after* he confessed to being in love with her- before the shrine, and before the being tied up.  It was totally retarded.  If she was all scared of what he might do, then why not put the dis-invite spell up after "Out of My Mind?"  At least then, it would have made some kind of sense.

"Oh no!  You guys, my mortal enemy said he's in love with me?  What ever shall I do?  Why can't he just cook up another scheme attempting to kill me?  Well, guess it's time to finally revoke his invite..."

Um, yeah.

Buffy was not only bad with distasteful actions, she was bloody stupid. (shakes head) I got tired of her pity ditty a long time ago. 

Yes, I agree. I remember first watching Buffy from season 1, and I too found myself following her relationships praying they would be happy, then being sad when they weren't... I admit I was into Bangel... how could you not, he kind of grows on you in the first 2 seasons... I was into Riley at the start of season 4.. he seemed sweet, caring blah blah blah... until something blue when I realised the potential of Spike hotness :) but even so, i still followed her character's feelings. Riley had a few (rare) moments of being quite funny, until OOMM when I was reminded of Spike in no shirt :P  I got over Riley pretty quickly after that lol then I was into Spike (i'm sure I dont need to remind anyone here the multiple reasons why ;))

But, during those 2 relationships, and the first 5 years of being the slayer, everything that happened over the years kind of... conditioned her. She was only used to the people she loved either leaving, betraying her, trying to destroy the world, or dying, all of which left a large scar on her fragile self. No wonder she felt like she had to be strong all the time. (Otherwise, who else would, or could, save the world?) So much, in fact, that she felt she shouldn't love, because you can tell she thinks it's just not worth the inevitable pain that follows her relationships. And I feel so sad for her because of that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, while it's impossible to condone her behaviour in season 6... when you take everything she's had to do in her young life into account, it's hard not to forgive her, or at least understand the reasoning she felt for her actions.

I can see both Patti's and Scarlet's points here. (so much for just aquarius's being flakey huh?)

I have SEVERE dislike for Buffy.  And not just in season 6.  Her entire attitude all the way back in the beginning just grates on my  nerves.  Last night I was watching "Doomed" from season four and the snotty way she talked to Riley made me want to just slap her.  And I don't even LIKE Riley.

Yet, at the same time, Patti is right about the set up.  

I think the problem is...the writers for some reason had major problems conveying a hero with flaws that was also sympathetic.  For some bizarre reason they didn't have this trouble with Spike.  For all their trying to make him evil, he still came off sympathetic.  Maybe SMG just couldn't pull it off as an actress.  Maybe she made her lines just a little too forceful.

But dammit I get that she's vulnerable and hurt and blah blah blah, but if she can never open up to anyone else again, she might as well go back and jump off the tower again, because there's nothing here for her.  You can't live like that totally shut down all the time.

If she's depressed she needs to get some help.  If her friends won't help her, hey? how about therapy or prozac? something.

When someone has problems and all they can bother to do is be bitchy and whine about them I can't be sympathetic.  The difference with Spike was, he fell down but he was so OPEN.  He did try the big bad persona bluster, but ultimately you saw it in his eyes.  With Buffy she could rarely even let her eyes convey her pain.

Maybe this is an SMG issue rather than a Buffy issue.  Maybe she should have conveyed a bit more of the pain. Maybe the writers should have encouraged her to show it more rather than give her lines so she could take the easy out and tell it.

When we did get a moment where Buffy was showing real emotion, it seemed like the writers had to immediately make it pointless by having her rant at her sister or her friends about how hard her life was.

It would have meant more, she would have been more sympathetic if we didn't hear a self righteous speech about it every five minutes.  The occasional soft crying (as did happen occasionally) speaks VOLUMES.  and is SO much better than: "My GOD, I have to save the world every night.  It's so hard, whaaa. I think I'll go slit my wrists or screw Spike so I don't have to go to the trouble of running the bath water."

Right there with you, Patti!! LOL, but I guess you already knew that, right?

I like Buffy, have always liked Buffy... doesn't mean I approve of everything she did, I certainly don't... but like you, I do feel for her and while I don't excuse her behaviour, I do understand it.

 when you take everything she's had to do in her young life into account, it's hard not to forgive her, or at least understand the reasoning she felt for her actions.

Exactly, guest.  If you want to stay angry, you can not forgive her if you choose, but I think she is, at least, understandable.

Uh, Scarlet, you confused me a bit when you seemed to be saying the same things I was, but saying that you disagreed with me. I totally agree that Spike was a wonderful man for her - that's why I said I felt sorry for her that her prior experiences didn't permit her to enjoy his love.

I just thought it should be pointed out that she only did the dis-invite spell *after* he confessed to being in love with her- before the shrine, and before the being tied up.  It was totally retarded. 

And, um, I didn't say it was retarded, but I did say that I thought she jumped the gun  by banned him before the chains and shrine stuff. I didn't mention the attempt to tell her he loved her on the "date" at the vamp nest because it wasn't worth a barrier either.  I agree - the time to have done it, if she felt one was necessary, would have been after he tried to get the chip out and kill her.  Just an example of more dumb inconsistencies by the writers (Although, it obviously wouldn't have been as powerful or as sad for Spike if it had been done earlier before anyone, including him, knew that he was in love with her, so maybe they left it till then for dramatic effect.)

ETA - hee! two responses came in while I was writing.  Zoe may be on to something. It's possible that Sarah is not the actress to bring off subtle nuances of emotion and over acted when she was being nasty.  I know that I grew to hate the way she curled her upper lip when she was being particularly repulsed by something. LOL It may be that her deliver, or her facial expressions sent a much harsher message that we would have seen from someone else.  But then, if that were the case, it would be the director's job to point that out to her and ask her to fix it....

Right, or since...presumably the writers were watching the episodes, they could write a scene slightly softer to get the desired effect.  I just remember watching a season one commentary about the first episode and how she was kindof over the top with her delivery with Giles in the library and it came off too snotty and forceful and they reshot it later where it was more sedate.

They might could have done with more of that.  Some lines can't exactly be softened, like "you're a thing" but...there were still probably a lot of places where her delivery could have been more sympathetic. 

As to the Buffy character herself, I would have loved if there had been one moment of emotional honesty.  What was so hard about having THIS discussion:

"Spike, look, Every man ever in my life has betrayed me.  Every relationship has gone down the shitter in a big flamey way...so while I DO find you attractive, your lack of soul makes you an even scarier prospect than all the others who I thought up front were really good.  I know you are trying and making progress, but it would really be great if we could be friends for awhile first, and see how that goes.  Build trust there, and then see if we can take it farther."

I understand that Buffy doesn't have this emotional range, especially in season six, but this kind of honesty could have fixed so many troubles before they started.

Well, I do struggle with Buffy -- in case that isn't clear already!  But to start out with the positive -- she really is thrown a *lot* to deal with and she carries on for quite a while with her burden, pretty positively.  And when it finally becomes too much (season 5), it's fully understandable why she starts shutting down and wanting out.  I think the show asks us to wonder whether it's really a sustainable project to be a super-hero -- and I believe the answer which I take to be "not really".  We really do suck heroes dry, and it can't be surprising that they turn into empty husks.  The dynamic with the Scoobies shows this pretty well, I think.

But as the show also says, in Becoming, it's not what life throws at you, but what you do with it.  And it's not clear that Buffy makes good choices.  When she goes out to the desert to deal with the problem of her getting too hard (and good on her for recognizing the problem) -- she is told the answer -- which is to risk the pain of love.  But she doesn't hear it, latching onto the last bit about death being her gift.  It's hard for me to not contrast Buffy's refusal to risk the pain of love, with Spike's complete willingness to walk through any pain for love.  It's that contrast that gets in my way.  Spike is the character who inspires me.  And by the measure of what would Spike do (risk the pain, keep getting up, not letting the opinions of others stop you from carrying on, etc. etc.) Buffy doesn't measure up very well. 

So I guess my bottom line is I can totally sympathize with her in the sense of understanding exactly how she comes to be the way she is, but I am still not inspired by her.  And since I am not inspired, I'm willing to notice the short-comings.  By contrast, Spike inspires me, so it's easier for me to shrug off his short-comings.  If that makes sense. 

BTW, I like the way Buffy dusts herself off and makes real progress in coming to terms with life in season 7. Her transformation doesn't go nearly as far as I'd like.  But I respect a lot of what she does in season 7.  And at the end of the series, I felt more optimistic than not about her -- it's not a guarantee, but there's reason to believe that she'd grow into a more fully admirable human being.  And after all she's been through, that's saying quite a lot.

Oh, Patty, I meant that... because of her crappy prior experiences, she should have been excited that things were starting to look up and become better.  Instead,she shuns the one thing that brings her happiness, and for that, I cannot feel sorry for her.  She made herself more depressed, and since she did it to herself essentially, I can't feel sorry for that.  And, I've seen the show from s1 when it originally aired on down, so I was there, and I still got sick of her whining. 

And I know you didn't say it was retarded, lol.  That was *all* me.  I thought to revoke his invite on the basis of him beginning to say "I love you" was beyond silly, and made the sense that's not.  It just a "WTF" moment (pre shrine).  You know, the convo she has with her mom and Willow, and I briefly wondered if they were all completely stoned...

Oh, and I thought it was pretty "bad" of her to allow herself to be kicked out of her own home- her *mother's* house rather.  What was that about?  And yes, not the kind of bad you were referring to... I just wanted to throw that in anyway.

And the whole "risk the pain" and "death is your gift," I swear I thought the Slayer was referring to Spike...

Maggie, I'm right there with you on the not inspired part.  It's my opinion that the show came to really be more about Spike than Buffy.  Because it was Spike,and NOT Buffy who took the hero's journey.  He has the most dynamic story arc, is by far the most sympathetic character, and goes out in a bang of glory and heroism at the end.

Buffy was on a journey Destiny picked for her (and not very wisely.)  Spike was on a journey he in the end chose to take.  While he didn't choose all the bad circumstances that happened to him: Being turned into a vampire, tortured for awhile by Angelus, saddled with a loon, Losing said Loon to a Chaos demon, having a chip shoved in his head and becoming mocked by demon and human alike, etc.  He did better things with his situation.

Scarlet, I think the slayer was talking about Spike too.  In fact, are there ANY fanfics at all that do a story showing: "risk the pain" and "death is your gift" as actually being about Spike? It seemed like there was one, but I don't know what it's called.  And there may be more than one.  Anyone?

I mean I think it was also about the tower, but I think it was about Spike too.

I must admit Zoe- after awhile, I began to watch the show to see Spike, and not anyone else.  Spike was the real hero.  Even Anya points out the fact that Buffy earned *nothing.*  Spike worked for everything, and I think, had tougher decisions because they were in relaiton to his identity.  That's a huge struggle- coming to terms with who you really are, and for him to overcome his nature in any shape or form (like helping to save the world in s2) deserves an applaud all on its own.  Spike had no moral or ethical obligation to do so.

And, in spite of all of the trials and tribulations he has to go through, all of the tough decisions and coping with a soul, he still manages to overcome them with less bitching than Buffy, and way less brooding than Angel (though maybe the curse of Angel's soul had a big part to do with that) 

Zoe and Scarlet - that's so cool that you guys think the slayer guide was talking about Spike.  I've always thought that -- indeed, I think Intervention is a key episode exactly because it's where the baton passes from Buffy to Spike.

That said, although I think Spike takes the lead in the rest of the journey -- Buffy is still a part of it.  He couldn't have saved the world in Chosen if she hadn't chosen him as her champion, or been the catalyst for the getting of the soul.  But he definitely is the one playing the crucial role of risking the pain, and genuinely making a gift of his death.  Sigh.  Thinking of it makes me so happy.  It's so effulgent!!

I don't know of any fics like that Zoe, but I'm getting to it... *wink wink*

Yeah Maggie, Buffy is the catalyst, but sometimes, don't you just wish you could see the title "Spike the Vampire" on the screen?  I still long for it... why won't they do that damn movie?  Why wouldn't it be feasible?  He could be introduced to all those that don't know him.  It worked for "Blade" at the box office...

(pouts)

Scarlet, I totally get your frustration.  I just have an elaborate story about how it's all smoke and mirrors to mask the fact that the 'verse is about and was always about Spike.  It starts with the proposition that the Buffyverse is all about how appearances are deceiving, so if the show is called Buffy the Vampre Slayer or Angel, it's probably the case that the real hero is neither Buffy nor Angel.  What can I say?   No Spike, and I watch the show through once, say 'that's nice' and move on to Alias.

BTW, I know the writers didn't mean to make a 'verse that is All. About. Spike.  It's just that you can go back and read the series as if it were All. About. Spike. and it makes surprisingly good sense.  Shockingly good sense, even.

I totally think it's all about Spike.

Hey question?  How come in the Spike thread we talk about Buffy and in the Buffy thread we talk about Spike? :P

I started the show with a few Season 3 reruns leading into Season 4. Started with AtS as a brand new show at the same time. I usually don't analyze my TV, especially back then, so I went along with the season 4 ride. Buffy's the Slayer and hero. Okay. Buffy's dating Riley. Okay. I felt bad for Spike once he realized he had feelings for her, but I didn't think about shipping them until season 6. I let visual stories take me with the flow. BUT......in retrospect, if I think about Buffy at all, I can't really like her. And there were moments in Season 7 when I thought SMG was really just phoning it in and it popped me out of the story.

Part of my problem with Buffy is SMG's acting, yes. Anyone remember seeing her in that teen soap before AMC? She played a snooty rich girl bitch in that, played a brat in AMC, then played a brat as Buffy. I've seen pictures of her outside of work, and she often has this "I'm better than you" expression on her face. Now, it might just be how her face is shaped, because I've seen her with a genuine friendly smile, too, but all that went into her portrayal as Buffy. I also think she lacks a vocal speaking range. In contrast to James, who can say SO MUCH in his voice, let along is eyes........SMG doesn't measure up. It's Buffy's voice I hear in every movie she's done since. Wouldn't you want to alter that for some characters? It makes sense to me, and I'm not a trained actor.

Spike grew on the screen from the first moment he was on the show. His journey is amazing. Same with Wesley. I mean WOW!!! Why couldn't they have put a tenth of that into Buffy's character?

I'd have admired her a lot more if she had taken the lumps, and learned, and visibly GROWN UP from that, instead of just shutting down. Granted, like Maggie, I do see hope for her by the end of Season 7, but it's still *wobbly*. She could easily slide back into bad habits at that point because she's barely cracked the door open.

It's the reason I can still enjoy the characters of AtS on repeat viewings - they remain likeable, every one of them. BTVS doesn't hold up the same way.

CM

Lots of interesting things said… I'm going to try not to get embroiled in another marathon debate here, lol, but here's my thoughts.

I watched the series in order – I did see a few random episodes as they aired (ashamed as I am to admit it, I occasionally watched Buffy when I had nothing to do and was waiting for Dawson's Creek to come on *hangs head in shame*), so I knew enough to get a sense of who the characters were, but I didn't really follow the overarching plots and characters arcs until I watched everything in the proper order on DVD.

I was never really all that into the Buffy/Angel relationship, but I *did* sympathize with Buffy in pursuing her first love and having it blow up in her face. Even though I didn't really like them together, I was so sad for her in season 2, that she got her heart broken so thoroughly, and everything went so horribly wrong. I disliked Riley from the start, and it only went downhill from there, but I felt bad for Buffy that she couldn't make it work with him, because I wanted her to be happy.

I loved Buffy as a character – even though she had her selfish or whiny moments, overall she was a very strong young woman who dealt with a lot more than a girl her age deserved. I marveled at the things she was able to survive – and I'm not talking about the saving the world Slayer stuff. She has super strength and special skills to handle the demon stuff. But emotionally, the things she had to deal with – dying, losing her virginity becoming a traumatic experience, killing her first love, gaining a sister, losing her mother, etc. - she was no better equipped to cope with them than anyone else. And, up until season 6, I thought she handled it remarkably well, considering the circumstances she tended to find herself in.

But after her resurrection, I thought she became extraordinarily unlikable. She lost all the wonderful characteristics that made me love her – her humor, her drive, her selflessness, her kick-butt attitude, and her relationships with her friends. And in exchange, all the characteristics I hated – her martyrdom complex, her selfishness, her inability to share her burdens, and her tendency to degrade others – all became inflated to the point that I no longer respected her.

I understand she had a traumatic experience. I can't imagine how awful it would be to be happy and at peace, and then to be suddenly jolted back to a world that feels harsh and painful. I think it's especially hard for a Slayer – they're not meant to live long lives because, as someone pointed out – we do suck our heroes dry. There's no way a Slayer could sustain that lifestyle for more than a few years without getting burnt out. I think it was probably something of a relief for Buffy, knowing she could just jump and save the world – and then it would all be over.

So, I do understand the state she was in when she came back. But that's no excuse for her behavior. There were plenty of other, more constructive ways of dealing with her pain than the path she chose. One of Buffy's less appealing character traits is that she internalizes all of her problems, takes the entire burden on herself, even when she doesn't need to. Despite being told (and it being demonstrated over and over again) that her friends and family are what kept her alive for so long, she insists on going it alone. I can understand if she didn't feel comfortable around her friends, since they were responsible for her resurrection, but the first thing she should've done when Giles came back is tell him the truth. He's her Watcher, the man whose *job* it is to look out for her. He wouldn't have felt guilty, since he had no role in bringing her back, and I'm sure he could've helped her – there's probably a Council psychiatrist who deals specifically with the therapy needs of people who interact with the supernatural. And if not, at least he could've offered her comfort and helped her to get back her desire to live.

I think Spike was right about her when he said that she enjoys the misery – I think she didn't tell anyone because it made her feel like a martyr, and she likes that feeling. She likes knowing she's suffering for the greater good – whether that's saving the world, or just sparing her friends from guilt. And I think the reason she confided in Spike about it is because he's the only one who would let her wallow in the misery.

I suppose that's as good a place as any to segue into her treatment of Spike. I guess the best way to describe it is that I actually do sympathize with Buffy, and it sort of disgusts me that I do. I know that it's easy to use someone when they willingly allow themselves to be used. I know it's easy to slip and go back to someone you said you'd never kiss/have sex with again. I know it's easy to beat someone when you have a lot of stress to get out, and they say, "Let it out on me." But that doesn't make it right.

I'm not saying it's entirely Buffy's fault – there's blame to share in that relationship (which I think we've discussed in detail on the other thread), but Buffy *made* it bad, Spike just let it happen (and occasionally made it worse).

Buffy redeemed herself somewhat in season 7, but I never really got back to the joy of watching her that I had in the early seasons of the show. I never really was able to see her as a role model, or even much of a hero. I hated her sanctimonious speeches to the potentials, and I hated her "I'm the leader so do what I say" attitude. It's the same problem over and over – she won't let anyone in. She takes the "chosen one" label and turns it into an incredible burden that only she can bear. She separates herself from the others, even though she should know by now that her loved ones give her strength. I find it pretty remarkable that she even let Spike in eventually – but since he turns out to be the true hero of the season, it almost feels like a wasted character development for Buffy. By the time Buffy's ready to let someone in, it's no longer the hero seeking comfort from a trusted friend, it's a secondary fighter seeking comfort from the hero.

Maybe this is an SMG issue rather than a Buffy issue.  Maybe she should have conveyed a bit more of the pain. Maybe the writers should have encouraged her to show it more rather than give her lines so she could take the easy out and tell it.

That's an interesting observation… and I think there's some truth to it. SMG seemed to be phoning it in (sometimes literally – how much acting went into Gone? lol) in most of seasons 6 and 7. It's like the depression that debilitated Buffy in season 6 also hit SMG (and I'm pretty sure she's not method, so…). The sad, frustrating part (to me) is that I *know* she could convey the emotions if she wanted to. She did it in season 2 with Angel. She was an incredibly dynamic actress in the early seasons of the show, and I can only assume that she lost interest in the role, but couldn't leave because of her contract, or she just wasn't as invested in the Buffy/Spike relationship as she was the Buffy/Angel one.

She didn't like the storyline of Season 6, and was tired of the 18 hour days by 6 and 7. So she stopped trying as hard unless James or Tony was her acting partner, and even then, it wasn't 100%. I still remember clearly her delivery of her line after she tosses the stake/shovel handle away in the basement where Spike had been burying his kills in Season 7. He begged her to help, and she delivers the most robotic sentence I have ever heard from a human character. Her "I'll help you" was as monotone as if she was *trying* to be monotone, when Spike/James is crying his heart out because the First has been f***ing with him.

There's no way I could have been with James in that scene and not had emotion in my voice as Buffy responding to his plea. It completely jarred me out of the moment.

Yep, Eowyn - Buffy wasn't the hero at the end of both Seasons 6 and 7. Her last heroic moment was jumping off the tower, and even that was tainted by her being ready to end the fight by then. It's not a total sacrific when you *want* life as you know it to be over. That was just as much about her escape, as saving Dawn. Which is really sad. I understand the POV of people that say the show should have ended at 5, though I'd have missed the Spike stuff that came after that a lot.

CM

I think we may have hit on something (thanks, Eowyn and CM and whoever else mentioned SMG and acting).  I believe she did think she was done at the end of season V - and was probably ready to be so.  If you've seen the dailies of Dead Things, when they're doing the balcony scene and she says, "....fuck my back, take 25" and then also, when they're done "Dude, there's too much sex on this show!" I'm paraphrasing a bit, probably. My memory's not perfect (you're shocked to hear that, I know. lol), but most of her words and the disgusted tone in which she uttered them didn't sound like someone who was enjoying her job. I believe one of the reasons the show ended in season VII is that SMG was done.  And, no Buffy, no show. lol.  So, it's very likely that for much of the time they weren't getting her best from her and that probably affected how we see the character.  It's a shame, but I can understand being tired of the long days - and with a movie "career" underway, I'm sure she was just counting the paychecks until she could be finished.  I think she's too much of a professional to have not wanted to go out on a good note, but that doesn't mean she was always able to make it work.

I also think that some of the better writers left to go to Angel...(nevermind the idiots who dreamed of season IV of AtS)  And Joss was focused elsewhere too (until BtVS s.7 - which explains AtS, s4, lol) which probably accounts for some of the floundering around and inconsistencies in the writing.  Which is actually part of the original thread's discussion and I'm shutting up now.

Eowyn,

"By the time Buffy's ready to let someone in, it's no longer the hero seeking comfort from a trusted friend, it's a secondary fighter seeking comfort from the hero."

Exactly!  Also I'm not sure how reliable info about "on the set" is, but it's my understanding that SMG and JM were friends, so I think it's also possible that this new and really dark place the writers took the spike/buffy thing (I mean it's my understanding SMG wanted a spuffy relationship back in season 4 and was pushing joss for one, but he said no more vampires and brought in riley).  I think it was probably very hard for her, even NOT being a method actor, to say things like that to her friend, even in an acting capacity.  She probably just wanted to get it over with.  So maybe her performances weren't so sympathetic because she just wanted to give them the money shot and move on, so to speak.

JM's really GREAT acting might not have helped to keep it from being upsetting.

CM,  Yes, I agree also the show should have ended at season 5.  And honestly I really see season 6 and 7 as not even part of canon.  To me "canon" is 1-5.  After that, it became about: "Well we finished the show, but this other network picked us up, Joss has lost interest, but what the hell, this is a cash cow this buffy thing, let's collect."  I like all the yummy Spike but seriously...gah.

Yeah Patti, they completely fell apart with the writing when Joss wasn't there.  It was like he was the only one who could hold a pen straight or something.

Also, I've never seen the dailies on any of it, where does one find this information?

Oh boy, Zoe - where to find the dailies? Um, I've usually seen them through links someone else left somewhere.  I don't think I kept any of them after I'd seen them several times.  Everyone's favs are the balcony scene (because James does it several times, getting sexier and sexier each time...) which is where you can hear the above off camera comments; and the morning after scene from Smashed where they re-do the scene where he pulls her down and kisses her so many times that she gets dizzy (doesn't actually appear too unhappy with her job there. lol - naked James kisses - over and over)  There are also dailies of a lot of other scenes - generally James is naked or nearly so. You might try You - Tube.  And there is a site with all kinds of Buffy/Angel related links, but I can't find the bookmark right now so it must be on another browser.   Getting ones hands on the dailies for the show was a big thing for awhile, but I think interest may have tapered off now.  Most vidders will know how to find them, as they tend to use outtakes sometimes in their vids.  Sorry I can't be more helpful than that - I was always led to them by somebody else more in the know.

Yeah, You Tube has most, if not all of them.

In the beginning of S7, Joss said to Sarah "I'm ready to end it this year if you want to end it, but it's also cool if you don't. It's up to you. Just do it by X date so we have time to right a proper ending." She decided she was done, and you know how the rest of the cast found out first? In the PRESS. Alyson was pissed that she didn't hear it from Sarah first. It made a big brouhaha back then for weeks in the entertainment news.

All the writers have greatly stressed that Joss approved every script even if he wasn't there every day.....but who supervised those directors......We do have to put some blame on directors that accepted shots that were sub-par. And on the schedule BTVS ran on, they didn't have time for re-shoots, so they were stuck with what a director took.

CM

disinvite- buffys desperatly trying to dismiss spikes words and put up a barrier between her and him , a litteral/physical one "maybe if i lock him out of my home i lock him out of my "personal space" he will just get over it, realize his evil and go back to being uncomplicated spike, so i dont have to be complicated with spike, vamps arent supposed to change.. yada yada yada(simplistic description)

I never saw that scene as being anything but descriptive to how emotionaly imature buffy was. very clear message, reminds me of young kids.If you think of it in them terms it makes good sense that she would do that at that point. Its called nipping it in the bud. ive done that before, well ok i dont own any disinvite spells, but yea close

Oh, and I thought it was pretty "bad" of her to allow herself to be kicked out of her own home- her *mother's* house rather.  What was that about?  And yes, not the kind of bad you were referring to... I just wanted to throw that in anyway.

I alsow thought this made perfect sense, since im not totally emotionally stable and ive been through breakdowns and total loss of hope. I can totally relate and maybe not in words describe why she allowed that to happen, but it made emotional sense to me, its just beyond any description of mine. Sometimes you just have to remove ureself from a situation when betrayal is truly overpowering.Or you get violently ill and puke all over the furniture.

I like buffy because her life and her head is as screwed up as me. I can relate to all these screwballs life throws you and you really just do anything and try to use judgement and sometimes over do it in order to stay on some kind of path. Obviously her life was thougher then mine since i didnt have to go out every night and kill evil things. She did good, she mightve gone a tiny bit off rail in season 6 but truth is us everyday people do way worse things on a daily basis. We dont only make bad calls when it comes to sex with the wrong people for the wong reasons we do abuse eachother to no end and its all got to do with being royaly screwed in the head for one reason or another. Not any excuse, not trying to make one, but for this i think buffy did great, she didnt go half as bad as she could have done. I mean people have gone way worse then that for a hell of a lot less then a resurrection.

What i find so inspiring about buffy is how her life can try to screw her up totally on a moments notice and she still has to come out fighting after sundown. I love that what an inspiration, she does badly ..great ads dimentions to her, shes complicated and furked up, completely in character.  She inspires me daily not to give up. The sky could fall down tomorrow, id still havet o get up get dressed and have a coffee. If you cant do it? fake it until its second nature, one day you WILL wake up and find ure not faking it anymore. Life is doing it, optiong out isnt an option.

I think how they made her more flakey and confused and contradicting by misstake made her more human, we are like that flakey-dakey and contradicting and sometimes even holier then thau. Shes more of a person then i can say about most characters out there, shes my second fav only to spike.

Seriously a legion of authors cant script as intricate pattern of a messed up young woman, like that. watching her fluctuate is like random pages out of a diary of an emotionaly disturbed girl. up and down in and out do the hokey pokey and shake it all about

//edit 3  she actually reminds me of this girl i lived with at this home for messed up people. only diff is JM would never be on the recieving end haha

cool on the dailies, I'll look for them.  Anyone know how I should search on youtube?  what search terms bring them up?

Also...about Buffy being kicked out of her house.  I never thought they REALLY could do that.  The house was in HER name.  Legally she owned it and she could obviously call the police to have all of them removed (actually no, everybody's leaving, she couldn't have.)  Okay she could have kicked there asses, though I believe by that point, Buffy was so emotionally drained and tired of the BS she just thought "Screw it, I don't need these losers" and left.

Plus it gives Spike that opportunity to prove he's the only one who sticks by her, and what he said in season six about being the only one there for her, turns out to be very true.

Yep, Zoe - I'm sure she was aware that it was her house (although didn't Dawn say something about it being her house too?). She just didn't feel like arguing.  She was depressed about having got people killed and Xander injured, and I think having everyone gang up on her was all it took to make her want to go somewhere and wallow in her misery.  Clearly not possible in a houseful of people.  And it does give her a chance to see who really stands behind her (like she didn't already know that he would!) and time for them to do some silent connecting that was long overdue.  

Wow, gone all day and so many replies, lol.

Well, I am personally thankful for s6 and s7, simply because of all of the Spike screen time and evolution of his character, which lead to the brilliant and (in my opinion) one of the best seasons as a whole ever of any show, season five of Angel.

I thought that SMG just didn't give a damn by then- particularly s7.  This is why I didn't believe her "I love you," because of her incredibly shitty acting.  I know she's capable of better, which made it so disappointing.  If she was displeased with how the story arcs were turning out, and wanted a fluffy Spuffy, then damn it, she should have just become a producer of the show like everybody else- Will Smith, Jennifer Garner, and probably a whole bunch of others.  I mean, leaving Buffy for Scooby Doo?  Okay, let's not get into that...

Furthermore, when talk of s7 being the last season, and before talk of Spike being on Angel, there was talk of other BtVS characters getting their own show- mainly Faith or *Dawn*.  Seriously, WTF?  How could they be so friggin stupid?  Is not Spike the obvious choice?  Am I insane for saying that?

The dailies, saw them on You Tube.  And, someone has access to pretty much alot of s6 dailies on eBay, but it's for like $250 bucks, and doesn't inclue "SR" so I was like no way...  But if SR was on there, I would have seriously pondered that one.  I just really want to see inbetween takes with JM... Don't ask why.

Patti, and without her being kicked out, there would have been no Spike/Faith fight and the following: "You say the word pet, and she's a bloody footnote in history."  It's a "joke" but it's more like "haha only serious" he totally would have taken Faith out.

Furthermore, when talk of s7 being the last season, and before talk of Spike being on Angel, there was talk of other BtVS characters getting their own show- mainly Faith or *Dawn*.  Seriously, WTF?  How could they be so friggin stupid?  Is not Spike the obvious choice?  Am I insane for saying that?

I think Faith is actually the most logical choice, because of the Slayer aspect... you'd hardly have to change the title! :) Maybe they didn't want to do a Spike show because another spin-off about a souled vampire fighting evil might have seemed too similar to Angel. (Not that *I* think it would've been similar, but I don't think ME had enough goodwill with the networks to pitch what would sound to the execs like the exact same show.) I think Dawn would've made a terrible spin-off. I actually had the sense, when the potentials were brought in, that they were kind of testing them out, to see if any of them might make a good choice for their own spin-off. Of course, we hated them all with varying degrees of passion, so I think they all would've been awful, but that seemed like an underlying intent. The exact phrasing used by someone, I think, was, "Throw all these girls up against the wall and see which one sticks."

Here's the thing, though - if they'd done a Spike spin-off, it would obviously have been without SMG. They'd have to get around the "Spike loves Buffy" thing, which probably would've been unconvincing, and at some point, they'd have wanted to pair Spike with someone else, just like they did with Angel. Would people have been accepting of Spike with someone else? Now, I've said before that I'd watch a show about James Marsters watching paint dry, so I wouldn't care who Spike was with. But maybe they thought there was too much risk in showing Spike without Buffy, because of all the Spuffy shippers.

I think it would have worked, E- Spike having another love interest.  I think Zoe said it before- we want Spuffy because Spike wanted Buffy.  Ah hell, who cares- if it was James with his own Spike show, I wouldn't have cared if they made him gay, let alone with another woman.  Besides, as long as the woman actually loved him back, it would have been a very nice change of pace.  If it weren't for Wesley, I do think that Spike and Fred would've been cute together, though I only would have seen Illyria with Wes alone... don't ask why.

I have mixed feelings about Buffy. The thing is, I have very little respect for people/characters who don't have their shit together, but in the case of those who experience extreme emotional and physical trauma, I am a lot more sympathetic. Now, Buffy is a fictional character so the same standards don't apply in my mind. She is created for a reason. She is supposedly the hero. In my book, whiny, emotionally stunted teenagers make for lousy heros. It's unfortunate that TPTB went that route. 

I recall being really annoyed with Buffy as early as "When she was bad." I didn't care at all for her actions then. However, I figured, she's young, and that was supposed to be a learning experience for her. I thought she would grow up a little. That was never to be, until season 7, and that too to a limited extent. Every time she reacted the same way. She bitched and whined. Had she shown some growth over the seasons, I would have admired her character.

Of course, when you add heros like Spike, and even Angel to the mix, she becomes that much less hero-like. 

Those are my thoughts on 'Bad Buffy' anyway. :-P

I think it would have worked, E- Spike having another love interest.  I think Zoe said it before- we want Spuffy because Spike wanted Buffy. 

Hmm... I don't know about that. I think there are a lot of people who would watch Spike with or without Buffy - but not Spike with someone else. Which might have worked in a movie, but with a TV series, there's always gotta be sexual tension with the main character... it's like a rule or something. So, I think we would've seen a love interest for Spike, which might have turned people off.

But it worked for Angel, though he didn't get the girl in the end... But still, they made it work with Cordy (till that whole Connor thing, which we won't discuss).

Hmm... I would argue that it *didn't* really work with Angel... because they kept giving him love interests, and they kept being awful, so Angel never really "got together" with anyone. There was the sexual tension thing with Kate, but that never panned out, and kinda turned into just regular tension, lol. Then, Angel and Cordy (who I thought had ZERO chemistry) danced around each other for a bit, but never really get it together, and then Nina was around for maybe 3 episodes, not really enough for a relationship. 

Since we never really saw Angel in a long-term relationship with anyone else, and we see as late as BtVS s7/AtS s4 that Angel *does* still have feelings for Buffy, it's hard to say whether all five of the hardcore Bangel fans would've stopped watching if Angel really got together with someone else.

Edited because I forgot about Darla, which was probably the most substantial relationship Angel had (well, except for Spike in s5, lol). I wonder if that one pissed off Bangel fans. Of course, there are much less Bangel fans than Spuffy fans, so it might be harder to tell if they're pissed off.

 it's hard to say whether all five of the hardcore Bangel fans would've stopped watching if Angel really got together with someone else.

LMAO!!  Actually, pre s4, I could see Angel and Lilah...  all that hatred and whatnot.  It would've been interesting.  At any rate, Angel's lack of official love interest, or relationship, rather, didn't take away from the show, so if they had Spike dance around a few ladies here and there, having nothing solid like Angel, it could still work.  I'd still watch.  Gosh, how I wanna watch... :(

also edited after seeing your edit- I thought the Darla part was funny when that guy said in order for Angel to get over her, to use up some pretty blonde and then dump her ass, lol. 

And, by s5, it was clear that Angel's true love interest was Spike, IMO, lol. He couldn't even remember her eye color... Yep- Spike was his soul mate.

There's quite a sizeable Cordy/Angel element out there, actually, and I've seen some great fic from that. I think they had great chemsitry when Cordy was allowed to be Cordy, not Saint Cordelia, or Possessed Cordelia. The one time we ever saw Angel smile really big and bright was when he made Cordy happy by buying her new clothes. And I loved seeing her back for "You're Welcome".

It was supposed to be the Faith and Spike spin-off, but Eliza took the "Tru Calling" offer instead. So, they went with the back up plan of sending Spike to AtS.

CM

I used to be a hardcore Bangel fan, and you are right, Scarlet Ibis - I wouldn't have watched anymore, unless the storyline was wonderful enough to eclipse the successful pairing of Angel with someone other than Buffy. 

That said, when it comes to Spike, I have to admit, while I would have hated to see him with someone other than Buffy, I wouldn't have been averse to the idea of him and Fred. There was something there - potential for something more...and different. She's the only character who treated him well throughout. They would have balanced each other, I think.

Here's something that has always left me wondering whether missed something crucial leading up to The Gift. In his speech, Spike thanks Buffy for treating him like a man and not a monster. Can someone please point me in the direction of this episode/scene(s)?

It's hard to say, because there were only like two eps before "The Gift," but I think he could have been referring to her coming to him, and asking for his help (you know, for their little trailer ride), and defending him and his being there to Giles and Xander (which is so weird- she defends him then and the fact that she needs him, and somehow can't do that again in s6...).

And/or, he also could have been referring to the post Glory torture kiss (cause Buffy wouldn't kiss a monster), and for bringing Dawn to him after Tara was attacked.  She put her trust and faith in him, and that made him feel like a man, the fact that she could treat him in such a way.

You know, I never looked at Buffy's actions as anything other than self-serving before the events of Intervention. It was obvious that she relented quite a bit after that one, so I can see why that may have contributed to Spike feeling more appreciated. Something about that scene just rubs me the wrong way, I guess. :shrug:

Wait, which scene exactly rubs you the wrong way?

And, Spike was totally ecstatic when she shut down Giles and Xander when they tried to get him off the bus.  "He's staying- end of discussion" or something like that.  And Spike (looking utterly ridiculous with those goggles), with his self satisfied smirk in their direction was totally adorable, and funny.

No, the monster/man scene is what rubs me the wrong way. It's why I asked my initial question. I guess I am being overly picky, but it's just that a couple of instances of Buffy being sorta nice to Spike doesn't negate her earlier mistreatment of him, in my book.  Even when I was not a Spuffy fan or a huge Spike fan, I took issue with Buffy's uncalled for physical and verbal abuse of Spike. In seasons 4 & 5 we got to see a lot of that. Hence, my puzzlement at the monster/man speech.

I agree the the one in which he's wearing goggles and she defends him is really adorable (then again, when is Spike anything but? :-D)

You know, I did some fanwanks of "missing" Spike and Buffy scenes in s5.  I think there was more to what happened between them  then we actually get to see.  For instance, I would have loved to have seen what she said exactly to Spike when she came for him to steal that trailer for her.  That point in their relationship, they were clearly on the rise to something good, and I feel cheated in a sense that we missed scenes like that in canon.

Also, her physical abuse of him was heightened and increased in season 5, and IMHO, I think that was perhaps because her subconscious feelings about him may not have been so subconscious.  She's not that worried about him in previous seasons, and treats him more as a pest that she verbally snipes at from time to time.  But in s5, as we see more of Riley's inadequacies and how he truly is just a rebound guy who's time should've been up long ago, in come the punches to Spike's face, and even hostile verbal abuse (as opposed to just mocking him).  Then she finds out he loves her, and she revokes his invite.  I think Buffy was afraid of letting him get close, and distanced him from her as much as she possibly could.  Then Spike starts to prove himself, and she can't ignore it anymore.

I think they had great chemsitry when Cordy was allowed to be Cordy, not Saint Cordelia, or Possessed Cordelia.

I always hated the Angel/Cordelia thing. I think they had good chemistry as friends, but the "feelings" that cropped up in season 3 felt so incredibly forced to me. It just seemed like someone said, "Well, he's the leading man, and she's the leading lady. Obviously, they should get together," even though it didn't suit their characters. 

I wouldn't have been averse to the idea of him and Fred. There was something there - potential for something more...and different. She's the only character who treated him well throughout.

I agree! I think part of it is that I'd just love to see Spike with a woman who loves him as much as he loves her, and treats him the way he deserves to be treated - and Fred's the only one who ever really came close to that.

I guess I am being overly picky, but it's just that a couple of instances of Buffy being sorta nice to Spike doesn't negate her earlier mistreatment of him, in my book.

I think it was more than a couple instances of her being sorta nice, though. From Intervention on, she changed the way she treated him - and I think part of his gratitude is that he recognizes the change. She could've gone on treating him like a monster (like she had been before Intervention), but she said she wouldn't forget what he did, and she didn't (until season 6). I think he was grateful that she finally gave him the chance to prove to her that he *could* be a man.

For instance, I would have loved to have seen what she said exactly to Spike when she came for him to steal that trailer for her.

Ha... that'd be a fantastic one-shot. I always had this thought in the back of my mind, though... what if he didn't steal it? We never see the DeSoto after season 5, right? Spike uses the motorcycle for the rest of the series. What if he traded the DeSoto to get the trailer? Now, *that's* love.

Actually, Cordy crushed on Angel back on Buffy (BX, of course ;)  And I think the difference between Cordy and Buffy besides looks (and I think physically, she's better suited for him anyway), is that Buffy is the Slayer.  Cordelia evolved a lot on Angel, and really, so did Angel.  She brought him out of his shell, which Buffy couldn't do.  I mean, he was actually *comfortable* and anti-angst around her. That's why I liked them together- not so much with the dramatics (till s4, of course.  And Groo=ewww in my book).

Um, the reason I think Spike mos def nicked the trailer is because in it, he mentions to Dawn how he had his eye on a nice, red Porsche (or something along those lines) with just enough room for them and "big sis."

In my own brain, I think Spike did sell the DeSoto, but only after Buffy's death, and probably to use the money for something for Dawn.  They spent tons of time together, and I think he definitely did something extraordinary for her to help with the grieving process.  They wouldn't just automatically become close cause he had to babysit her all the time... it'd have to take more than that (at that point in s6, she felt closer to Spike more than anyone else.  Tara was a close second- she was motherly, and he was... big "brotherly").

I think Cordy's initial crush on Angel was more of a popular girl territorial thing - he was the hot older guy, and she, as the most popular girl in school, deserved to have him, not a freakish outcast like Buffy. Once she actually got to know him... eh, not so much.

I think you're right about him being comfortable around her and her bringing him out of his shell... but I think most of that happened during their friendship. It was a fundamentally different relationship than what he had with Buffy - primarily because he put Buffy on this pedestal of innocence and purity, and never saw her as herself. Cordy, he never had that kind of hero-worship for, so he could be himself, and they could honestly be friends. But it seemed like the "dramatics" started as soon as they started to have feelings for one another. The whole Groo triangle was an annoying melodrama, and the "star-crossed lovers" thing at the end of s3 completely made me just roll my eyes. I don't even want to talk about s4 and Connor because - ewww. And then when she came back in s5, it rubbed me the wrong way, because it seemed like they were doing Bangel redux with the star-crossed thing. (Although, I think the scene when Spike bites her makes it worth it... "I have a soul!" "So do I!" "Well, clearly, mine's better!")

The dramatics aren't the characters' fault, though. As a couple to match, they are great counterparts. Angel encouraged Cordy to not be so shallow, and she helped him be less broody and more human. And that final scene in YW never fails to make me cry...

They bring out the best in each other, which was in great contrast to Buffy and Angel often bringing out the most *annoying* in each other.

CM

The dramatics aren't the characters' fault, though.

Well, true... but being good counterparts isn't the characters' doing either... everything is a construct of one writer or another. :) But let's just say, I'm a fan of Angel/Cordy in theory, but not a fan of the execution...