I know i sounds terribly pretentious but i enjoyed the read after a while. Keep in mind .. it gets better the further down the page you get.

http://www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=1501

Artistic inspirations evident in the 'verse

http://www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=247

Just tell me, I is wierd. :D

 It is an irony that in the Jossworld, trips to heaven seem to result in a state of moral confusion; whereas, trips to hell, for those who are not entirely evil, and have the potential for good still in them, seem to have a salutary effect.

- alcibiades

No truer words have been spoken...

Or how 1-11 reverses or otherwise mirrors back at us the themes from its counter number in 12-22. [1-22; 2-21; 3-20, etc.]

• 1. CONVICTION 22. NOT FADE AWAY

– Loss and regaining of conviction
becoming lost/emerging from that state.

• 2. JUST REWARDS 21. POWER PLAY

– Feint as to who is the betrayer –– Spike? or Angel?

• 3. UNLEASHED 20. THE GIRL IN QUESTION

– Nina trumps fading Spike/Spike trumps fading Buffy. • 4. HELL BOUND 19. TIME BOMB

– A Main character is in danger of Fading Away or Destroying the world and must be rescued. Angel is made to help against his initial instincts. • 5. LIFE OF THE PARTY 18. ORIGIN

– On life with two distinct identities, the first for vanity and its destructiveness, the second for the good. • 6 THE CAUTIONARY TALE OF NUMERO CINCO 17. UNDERNEATH

– Resurrection and repentance of a hero • 7 LINEAGE 16. SHELLS

– Saving and Not Saving Fred • 8. DESTINY 15. A HOLE IN THE WORLD

– Vanity Quest [Angel & Spike compete] vs.
Real Quest [Angel & Spike collaborate] • 9 HARM'S WAY 14. SMILE TIME

– Being A Puppet to an Organization • 10 SOUL PURPOSE 13. WHY WE FIGHT

–Challenging Sons
On Feeling Empty and not having a reason to go on. • 11. DAMAGE 12. YOU'RE WELCOME

– Damaged heroines, one destructive and taken in to be saved, the other saving and going off alone.I was doing this earlier today without realizing someone had once cared to put it down.

the discussion we like to have, therse a few on spike and buffy if u do a search

http://www.teaattheford.net/conversation.php?id=187

Concerning the "It is an irony ..." quote by SI. I actually don't think that's ironic at all, makes perfect sense to me.

Going with the Jossverse examples, Buffy lived her life the best way she knew. She was concerned with typical human things like family, friends and relationships; she did what she called her "duty" (after trying several times - unsuccessfully - to rid herself of it), but more because she felt she had no choice, than out of a desire to do "good". She wasn't perfect, did things she felt guilty for, things she was aware others thought to be wrong. She got into heaven anyway! Why shouldn't that scramble her morales? She looks at what she did before, sees that she wasn't perfect or completely "good", or even concerned with being "good", but hey, it was enough, so why should she even bother? If it was enough the first time, it'll be enough the second time, won't it?

Spike and Angel with their trips to hell on the other hand, they were already at a point where they regretted their past and had been actively trying to atone for it for some time. Obviously it wasn't enough, as they still ended up in hell. Of course they are going to try harder after that, they don't want to spend eternity in hell after all.

So yeah, the concept might seem ironic at first, but I really don't think it is, not if you give it some thought...

"We fought for all these years, and then...". "Sometimes you just look at someone, and you know. You know? No." (I can't even type that line without laughing.) So, okay, here's a question. When did that moment come, that 'sometimes you just look at someone, and you know' moment? Because that part isn't down to the spell, you know, that spell only specifies marriage. It's an unanswerable question, really, unless ME decides to tell us someday. But here's my personal candidate, this moment here:

S: Fe, fi, fo, fum. I smell the blood of a nice ripe (turns to face Buffy) girl.
B: Do we really need weapons for this?
S: I just like them. They make me feel all manly.(Grand gesture sweeping down his body.) The last Slayer I killed... she begged for her life. You don't strike me as the begging kind.
B: You shouldn'ta come here.
S: No. I've messed up your doilies and stuff. But I just got so bored. I'll tell you what. As a personal favor from me to you I'll make it quick. It won't hurt a bit.
B: No, Spike. It's gonna hurt a lot.
(they fight)
S: Now, that hurt! But not as much as this will.
(Joyce bashes him with an axe.)
J: You get the hell away from my daughter!
S: Women! (runs out)
J: Nobody lays a hand on my little girl.

(B2.03 School Hard, written by David Greenwalt)

For Buffy, I'd pin it to that line: "Do we really need weapons for this?" Such an amazing line for Buffy. "A Slayer has to reach for her weapon", he tells her later in B5.07 Fool for Love. "I've already got mine." So here, she doesn't reach for her weapon. He shows her with his grand gesture that he's already got his.{g} They discuss the pain they're courting even by trying it on. And from that moment on, opening into the start of the dance,

everything
falling
away

and messy Angel issues aside, dancing is all they ever do. Over time, which changes them, the dance changes. But somehow they can never bear to stop. It isn't about winning or losing. In the language of the meme: 'Who are you?', is the first thing she ever says to him. And 'Spike' is the last thing she ever says in the series that has her name on it.

B: I think maybe we fought because we couldn't admit how we really felt about each other.
R: (Confused) Can we start again?
B: You'll really like him. Well, nobody really likes him..
R: I just need to clear a few things up..
B: I don't even really like him..
R: Buffy..
B: But.. I love him. I do.

Im such a mushy mush.. .

But you must consider that Cordelia too went to Heaven, and didn't really do anything wrong (well, worthy of going to hell wrong) previously, but when she comes back, has a big hand in evil (even though she was possesed) as the poster mentions...  You'd have to read it- it's this whole thing about how Angel being in that box all summer was hell, as Cordy went to "heaven," and when the come back, the moral ambiguities start.  As for Buffy, she died a second time, doing the whole self sacrificing bit.  And yes, before she sacrificed herself for the world and her sister, she did do a few questionable things, but nothing so big that wouldn't make her a candidate for heaven (or a heaven dimension).

Anyway, looking over the other thread, and found this interesting: 'Who are you?', is the first thing she ever says to him. And 'Spike' is the last thing she ever says in the series that has her name on it.

lol omg scarlet we posted at same time and brought up same thing "spike is the last thing she says" hahaha i guess were both mushy mush

lol, just noticed.  But since Joss wrote it... it feels like it kinda overrides her "someday when I'm a cookie" speech with Angel, and makes me reevaluate what happened in that cut basement scene that I hated sooo much.

 - Klytaimnestra  posted

"Angel's relationship with Buffy gets in the way of either one of them being superheroes in the real world. Because their love is about nothing BUT their love - everything but Our Love gets in the way of Our Love, which means they can't get out there and help the helpless - in his view of the relationship, and actually, hers too. Everything but Our Love encroaches on the relationship.

Where her relationship with Spike is all ABOUT engagement with everything else in the world. It's about the real thing - all the real things. So she and Spike do not take away from each other's ability to be heroes; quite the contrary. But she and Angel do. "

which is why i dont think joss ever intended them to stay together at any point, at all.. i cant seem to visulize their dynamic changing for anything realistic or adult.

"But if you (as the viewer) fantasize daily about a Dark Mysterious Stranger who will tell you, over and over, just how wonderful you are, without ever challenging or really engaging you - Angel is the perfect fantasy lover.

He's even Buffy's perfect FANTASY lover - in that he's a whole lot better when he's not in town, so she can fantasize properly. The reality would get in the way."

alira said

When angel arrives night of Joyce's funeral, angel is offering to stay, she says how about forever.. but that shes really needy rght now so it might be a bad idea.

"How about forever.... I'm sorry. Seriously needy now.

I can handle the neediness... still a few minutes before I have to go.

So what happened between "I can stay as long as you need me" and "I'm sorry... still a few minutes before I have to go"?

She asked him to stay "forever" (no answer from him when she calls his bluff, so she backs off), and then kissed him. He can handle the neediness, but not if she's going to be sexual too? This is what I think is intriguing-- now surely he can last a couple days in her presence without sex. I mean, come on. But as soon as sex rears its pretty head, there goes "forever". And he takes off, right after she told him that the funeral was brutal but "tomorrow" will be worse. She even confesses her secret fear that she could have saved her mother. But he can't stay. Because... she might seduce him?

You know, you got to feel for Buffy. Her earlier boyfriend leaves to go vamp-hoing when her mom is having surgery. And she just has to kiss Angel a couple times and he's off, leaving her to deal with mom's death. Lucky she's got Spike. :) "

"So do you think that's what I Will Remember You is about? That he sees what their fulfilled love will mean, and rejects it? That's interesting"

oy vey

I loved that cut out scene, i always thought hey intended to fill it up by some flash back in angel, well i hoped they would (kill joys) joss has promised to wrap up some spuffy in the s8 comic, im still holding out for this one red thread, but i wont let it make or break my spuffy

Just a thought on I WIll Remember You.  Angel claimed that he left to give Buffy the freedom to find  a normal life with a normal man.  He was FINALLY in a position to BE that normal man and decided that was NOT what she needed/wanted (and made sure she didn't remember his decision).  At that point he became a dog with a bone, he no longer wanted it but held on tenaciously.  Buffy, meanwhile was left with the romantic dreams and "what-if's" she had when the curse was the only obstacle.

Kathleen

I thought it was funny cause the PTB's told Angel that if he stayed human without shanshuing (and as it turns out, that prophecy was probably never meant for him anyway), screwing up the order of the way things were supposed to happen, that Buffy would die.  Which she does anyway (and honestly, she's a human- she's gotta go at some point anyway, so that statement in itself was sorta ridiculous)... oh, those PTB's love sticking it to Angel, don't they?

Cordelia didn't really do anything wrong (well, worthy of going to hell wrong)

Her acting/character on Angel was worth a couple of years in hell. 

 Her acting/character on Angel was worth a couple of years in hell. 

lol As I was reading I had my reply reading for posting but know I forgot. My poor brain.

When I was all into the bangel i was so pissed when Angel left Buffy. I think I almost cried, it was sad and I felt for her. But after a while I realized that what they had wasn't true love. Like someone said about, it was fantasy love. Romantic love, the kind that cannot last, that cannot blossom into anything real. Angel was buffy's first taste of an can I say adult crush? She was coming out of her teen years, starting or trying to feel out her way in the coming adult years. Angel just ahppeend to be there at that time. I think if Riley had showed up then it would hav been the same, but he turnd into rebound guy instead.

What Buffy shared with Spike was real. I personally believe that if she were in a different state in season 6, or even took things slow it would have ended differently. I believed her when she told Spike that she loved him, and that he in fact was The One for her as well. Thatcookie dough speech was just to throw Angel off. And he knew it too. Hence his whole reaction towards Spike in season 5 Angel. He knew that Spike was teh real champion and not him and he hated it.

Being bitchy doesn't add up to time in hell.

And... yeah, Buffy missed her chance (officially) with the one, cause she was so hung up on stupid stuff.  It's funny, cause the whole part about Spike being a vampire aside, personality wise and emotionally, he was her opprotunity for "normal," where Angel and Riley weren't.  Angel was too helbent on wanting to protect her, and trying to tell her what was and wasn't good for her, and Riley was too busy trying to compete with her.  Spike was okay with letting her be her own person.

And... yeah, Buffy missed her chance (officially) with the one, 

Yup, she did. And she's a freakin slayer, just how normal of a life did people expect her to have?