BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub

Wherefore Art Thou Rome?

Aug 27 2007 09:49 pm   #1Verity Watson
With apologies to the Bard, does anyone else really struggle with the idea that California-girl Buffy would move to Rome? (I know, I know. In the comics, it is an elaborate part of a decoy plot masterminded by that genius among men, Andrew Wells. But still.)

I can buy almost any city on Earth - L.A., obviously; New York because, hello? it's New York; Cleveland because of Giles' comment about the other Hellmouth; London, if she's rebuilding the Council; heck, even a little beachside resort where she can work on her tan while Dawn attends Ocean City High.

Rome is lots of things - lots of amazing, wonderful things - but an ancient city known for catacombs doesn't seem like the place a Slayer goes to rest up.

Anyone ever read - or written - a good explanation for why and how our girl ends up an expat?
You know I've been a good girl, but I hit a limit. ~ Poe
Aug 27 2007 09:57 pm   #2slaymesoftly

I've never seen anything that I can recall.  Other than, there may have been a reference somewhere, somewhen that she never gets to leave the Hellmouth and/or wants to see Europe.  Somebody more familiar with the episodes might be able to verify that.  I'd say it was just a way to get her out of the US before AtS season V and involved with the Immortal - who may have been depicted as being Italian, but I think that came after.   I don't ever recall hearing Buffy express a craving to see or live in Rome (Italian shoes, maybe?). London certainly makes much more sense to me - but who knows? Maybe Joss was already well into his arc for the comics and knew where he wanted her to be. Or maybe London was just too rainy for her. lol

I am not a minion of Evil...
I am upper management.
Aug 28 2007 12:41 am   #3Eowyn315

an ancient city known for catacombs doesn't seem like the place a Slayer goes to rest up.

You know, I always thought the Rome thing was out of character, until Lostboy described it almost exactly the way you did, and then it made sense: Rome is the world's biggest crypt. For our girl, who spent most of the last seven years in graveyards, who sought out comfort from a vampire, who often identified more with the dead than with the living, where else would she go? In that sense, Rome is the perfect place.

Also, the shopping probably helps.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 28 2007 01:15 am   #4Guest

I think the shopping definitely helps. Also, Rome has a similar climate to SoCal. I know as an admirer of fashion, I'd definitely want to go, let alone the history and the food. All those tomato-based dishes we're used to in Italian? From Southern Italy, i.e. Rome. 

Buffy was always wearing a coat in CA, so I doubt she'd want to stay in London (and there are all those accents that might remind her of Spike). And I always imagined Dawn having a zest to see lots of places, so she probably spurred Buffy on to see this and that, until Rome was as far as they got. (And even though Spike has history with the Immortal there, he never mentioned Rome to Buffy, so it's safe for that, too.)

She could have ended up extending her stay in Rome after meeting the Immortal when they first arrived, and being thoroughly charmed (especially if he's using some kind of mojo). Put down roots because she clicked with a guy, probably telling herself it's still just temporary until he gets bored with her. But a year later, still there.

CM

Aug 28 2007 03:47 am   #5Verity Watson
CaroMio, I buy the argument that Buffy & Dawn might've went wandering and stopped in Rome when Buffy fell for the Immortal. That does sound very Buffy - and as you say, no memories of Spike.

And I really, really, really need to catch up on Clocks as soon as the new & improved version is up ... Eowyn, thanks for the tip.
You know I've been a good girl, but I hit a limit. ~ Poe
Aug 28 2007 04:01 am   #6Scarlet Ibis

See, this is where I follow canon.  In my brain, that wasn't Buffy at the club.  But on the other hand...

If it was, it shows her growth, and acceptance of that gray area she used to have such a problem with.  Too bad Spike wasn't around to reap the benefits of it.  At any rate, I tend to ignore the Buffy part of TGIQ, cause it was all about Spike and Angel and their relationship.  Hell they can't even get her description right.

As for the oringial questioned of this post, well, it's so not typical Buffy, but maybe, after all she's been through, the mundaneness of her life or whatever, she decides to make a change, which is really quite healthy to do.  And besides, just cause she's there for a year or so doesn't mean she has to stay there forever.  She now officially has her whole life in front of her (excluding some horrible accident or a demon's one good day).  And I'm sure Spike told her about his travels, including Rome, and maybe it peaked her interest ;)

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Aug 29 2007 11:57 pm   #7Immortal Beloved

See, this is where I follow canon.  In my brain, that wasn't Buffy at the club. 

I'm with Scarlet on that one.  I found it weird that Buffy was in Rome, of all places, shakin' her groove thing with some immortal Italian guy.  And that was BEFORE the Season 8 comics revealed that the TGIQ Buffy was a decoy.  I could see Buffy going to Rome (shoe shopping, showing Dawn the world, recruiting newly-called slayers, a special slaying assignment, to get as far away from Giles in England without being too far away), but I don't see it as being her bag.  Of course, she could be trying out something new; but, the only way Rome makes sense to me is if Rome Buffy isn't really Buffy :-P

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Aug 30 2007 05:55 am   #8Eowyn315

Even going with the comics, and accepting that the Buffy in Rome was one of the decoys, that wouldn't really excuse it from being out of character. I mean, the decoy is supposed to make people think she *is* Buffy, so she should be trying to act like her as much as possible. 

If the point of the decoy is just to make the world think that Buffy has retired from slaying and is living a normal life, she could've done that anywhere. Could have picked California, or New York, or London, or any other place in the world. You have to figure that Buffy, or Giles, or whoever set up the decoy, picked Rome for a reason. I figure that reason is either that it's what Buffy would have done, if she *could* really retire... or there's some strategic reason behind it that we don't know about (i.e. there's a Hellmouth in Rome or something).

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 30 2007 05:59 am   #9Scarlet Ibis

According to comic canon, E, Andrew placed her there purposely to snub Angel, knowing that he'd eventually find out that "Buffy" was with the much hated Immortal.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Aug 30 2007 08:10 pm   #10Eowyn315

I read the comics, Scarlet. The exact line was, "One's in Rome, partying very publicly - and supposedly dating some guy called 'The Immortal.' That part was Andrew's idea. He did research on the guy, said it would be hilarious for some reason."

"That part was Andrew's idea." I took that to mean that Andrew's involvement was just suggesting the Immortal as a boyfriend, not necessarily the whole Rome idea. (Do we even know that the Immortal *only* lives in Rome? He happened to be there twice in 100+ years... doesn't mean he couldn't have dated fake Buffy wherever she was.) We can see from The Chain that there is some strategy to the placement of the decoys - why would the one in Rome be a throwaway?

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 30 2007 10:44 pm   #11Scarlet Ibis

On whether or not the Immortal is actually living there, he seems to be there for an extended period of time.  A couple of months or years is nothing to someone who's been around for centuries.

And, since Dawn was going to school there... makes sense that big sis would be close by, even if she really wasn't all of the time.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Aug 31 2007 12:23 am   #12Immortal Beloved

I took that to mean that Andrew's involvement was just suggesting the Immortal as a boyfriend, not necessarily the whole Rome idea.

Me, too, E.  I think the whole Decoy in Rome will probably be explained in a future issue just as the underground Decoy was explained in the last one.  The Immortal part would definitely be Andrew's idea.  He is obsessed with telling stories and obsessed with Spike (not even going down that road :-P ), so he probably would have done some research on his hero.  The fact that Angel was involved with Buffy and had runnings in with the Immortal would just be too perfect for Andrew to pass up.

Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Aug 31 2007 03:23 am   #13Eowyn315

I really hope they explain it, because right now, the whole "decoy Buffy" thing doesn't really make sense to me. That's a problem I see with the comics as a whole - you read it and go, "Oh, okay," but the more you think about it, the less sense it makes...

I have no idea whether Joss intended the Buffy in TGIQ to be the real Buffy or not when they made the episode, but either way, he doesn't want to write a comic about the real Buffy partying in Rome. So, obviously, the decoy idea was necessary... but I don't think it was explained very well. Buffy says that the reason they needed three Buffys was because they were afraid the real one would become a target.

The Chain shows that's not entirely true. In that issue, they used the decoy to send "Buffy" on a mission that was too risky and not a high enough priority for the real Buffy. They're not afraid that Buffy is a target - in fact, by sending the decoy underground, they're *making* her a target for those demons. It's not about safety at all - they're just using the convenient lack of communication between the underground demon community and the "surface world" to have Buffy in two places at once.

Now, if the decoy Buffy in Rome is meant to keep the real Buffy from being a target, they kinda have a dumb way of going about it. I can understand the basic sentiment - if they make the decoy very visible, demons won't look for the real Buffy elsewhere, and will think that Buffy is no longer acting as a Slayer. But do they really think that demons will stop trying to kill Buffy, just because she's (apparently) not actively slaying? Maybe someone like Spike, who fought Slayers for the glory of a warrior's battle, might not be bothered with an inactive Slayer, but there are plenty of demons out there with less pride than Spike who would be more than willing to kill the Slayer in a less-than-fair fight. And now that they've made her very visible, it's incredibly easy for the demons to find her! So, either they're continuously replacing the Rome decoy, and Buffy has now attained the appearance of immortality (which would actually be kinda cool... but in a sick way, because lots of decoys would have to die to give Buffy that reputation), or decoy Buffy must be really well-protected from demon attacks.

Also, what about the demons that (real) Buffy encounters in her missions? Maybe none of them survive, but if I were Giles and co., I'd worry that somehow the word might get out that there's a Buffy actively slaying. Obviously, Twilight (that mysterious military group) knew that Buffy was still in action, so why couldn't the demons also find that out? 

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Aug 31 2007 04:34 am   #14Scarlet Ibis

Well, if it helps at all E... perhaps they know that pretending to be Buffy, that it's pretty much a self sacrificing mission.  Like the secret service agents that protect the President.  They don't know for sure, but accept the possibilty that a bullet just may whizz by one day, and that they'll have to hurl themselves in front of the President and maybe not make it.

And as for the demons finding out it's not really her, well, they're probably assuming that they'll figure it out when it's too late- like in "The Thomas Crown Affair," and he had all of those men dressed like him with the bowler hats as a distraction, while he himself quickly changed clothes ;)

And god, this so sounds like me defending the comic.  It's not horrible, but I'd much rather see a movie that covers both series or something... *Sigh*

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Aug 31 2007 05:53 am   #15Eowyn315

perhaps they know that pretending to be Buffy, that it's pretty much a self sacrificing mission.

But, see, that's my problem with it. If decoy Buffy gets killed, then what happens? Do they put another decoy in her place and say, "Just kidding!" (Although, I guess Buffy does have the history to support that...) It just seems that making Rome Buffy such an easy target doesn't do much to protect the real Buffy in the long term.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 01 2007 01:43 am   #16Guest

Thing is, RealBuffy is not that precious. Sure, she has a history and reputation, blah, blah, blah.......but she's still just a Slayer. That whole decoy idea just seems stupid to me, because one, it's going to give her more of an inflated head than she already has, and two, if she's moving around all the time on missions, she's not a viable target, anyway, since it's hard to pin her down. And the only part of the demon world that we saw that was worldwide-organized was W&H, so really........it's just lame.

Sep 02 2007 03:18 pm   #17goldenusagi

How's Buffy paying for all these jetsetting trips, I wonder?  Living in Rome is not cheap (though actually the decoy there).  Where'd she get the money for the whole operation going on in the comics?  Old Watcher Council funds?

Sep 02 2007 05:26 pm   #18Eowyn315

Thing is, RealBuffy is not that precious. Sure, she has a history and reputation, blah, blah, blah.......but she's still just a Slayer.

Well, sure, to most people. But when you consider that her best friends are the ones in charge of this operation - friends who have idolized her and put her on a pedestal for years - it doesn't surprise me that they would think of her as that important. She says, "The guys figured I was a target," which in my mind is Giles, Xander, and Andrew - and possibly Willow and Dawn, depending on whether "guys" is being literal about the gender. I can definitely see them thinking the decoy was necessary. And let's not forget, this isn't the first time they've used a Buffy stand-in to fool demons. (Sidebar: wouldn't it be hilarious if a refurbished Buffybot were actually the one partying in Rome? That SO needs to be a TGIQ fanfic.)

Where'd she get the money for the whole operation going on in the comics?  Old Watcher Council funds?

Yep, that's what I figured. Giles probably managed to get access to the old Council funds.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sep 02 2007 05:43 pm   #19goldenusagi

Hmmm....why go to the trouble of having girl decoys when you could have Buffybots?  Yes!  :)