The Bloodshedverse :: Spuffy with Bite

Oct 06 2007 06:47 am #3Maggie2

I'm probably more post-Spuffy than Spuffy. But there are a lot of reasons for why I was first drawn to the relationship:

1. They have a good dynamic. Spike has this truth-telling ability that Buffy needs, since she tends to evade the truth. Her devotion to duty was something he needed, since he needed to see the possibilities of leaving behind a life of evil. They both give as good as they get, and I like the equality inherent in that. There's just a spark there... which is why Spuffy fic can be so much fun.

2. I love, love, love (and always will) the dramatic changes Spike was willing to go through for her. He doesn't remotely understand at the beginning how much he's going to change, and how much it's going to hurt (both themes that were first sounded way back in School Hard). But I like the process of him first trying to be good to impress her; then trying because he just wants her respect; to realizing that deeper changes are needed and getting the soul; to coming back and being willing to help her in the final fight. Most of this is done with him knowing, sometimes explicitly (The Gift, Season 7) and sometimes implicitly that he's not really going to get the girl, which means that I see his journey as essentially unselfish.

3. I love the range of the relationship. They really do know the worst sides of each other. And the best sides. In season 6 we saw them drag each other down. But then we got the healing in season 7. I totally agree with Jane Espenson that where they ended up was totally beautiful -- and it's a beauty that wouldn't have been so blinding were it not for the ugliness of season 6. I totally believe that we can't reach our highest heights until we confront the darkness within. And that's what the movement of season 6 and 7 was all about for me. (By contrast, Buffy's relationship with Angel never got to that real confrontation with their respective darknesses, largely because both Buffy and Angel wanted to push his darkness off onto 'Angelus' and they both agreed to not look too closely, if at all, at hers, which means that we haven't seen them hit the high of loving each other in full knowledge of who they both are.)

I tend to be post-Spuffy because I'm not sure that Buffy ever cleared her idea that Angel is her one true love (which for reason #3 I tend to read as a refusal to grow up in important ways). She projected a lot of her angst about Angelus onto Spike and never owned that. I go back and forth on this, but I mostly don't think she ever fully owned her part of the badness that was season 6. And we never saw her fully give herself the way Spike totally gave himself. They ended in a place where things could have worked for them. But that depends on just how much movement Buffy had done, and our picture of that is completely opaque. I'm glad Spike chose not to track her down. He has given everything, and I really do believe that even if Buffy did love him, he had good reason to believe she didn't. It's time for him to figure out what he wants for himself. And if she really does love him like that, then it's her turn to do the reaching out. Whoever Buffy ends up with, I think it would do her a world of good to do the reaching. Her spirit guide told her that she needs to love, give and forgive. She's made a lot of progress on that in season 7. But I don't think she's nearly done baking.

And that's probably more than you were looking for!

Oct 06 2007 07:39 am #4Scarlet Ibis

Well, for me I was just drawn to the character of Spike from point one. But when s4 rolled around, and their playground antics, and then the "what if" ep Something Blue happened, I was really pushing for a Spuffy. I loved the teasing, childish behavior they had with each other in the beginning. I was their for the Bangel, but it was too dark angsty for my tastes (which is why I particularly love that scene in "The Zeppo" when Xander interrupts their moment chock full of histrionics). And then, as it progressed, seeing their reactions towards one another, and Spike's devotion, it was just lovely (till ya know, Buffy got all scared and what not, and the dying...)

Furthermore, Spike treated Buffy as an adult, as a woman and as an equal, which was something that completely escaped Angel and Riley. He was threatened by her being stronger than him, and didn't have this possessive need to protect her from every little thing. He didn't have this idealistic view of her, and saw her for who and what she really was, and that was why he loved her. It was more complex and more realistic than the other pairings on the show.

But yeah, I'd be happy to see Spike with (*almost*) anyone on the show. Had it been Willow, well, there would've been a considerable amount of less drama, and a fight between Oz as a werewolf and Spike would've been interesting...

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Oct 07 2007 02:19 am #5Spikez_tart

The bickering, the fighting, the jokes, the totally hot sex, the angst, the tears. Everything.

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?

Oct 07 2007 02:59 am #6Eowyn315

I agree with a lot of what's been said regarding the complexities of their relationship, and how that makes them much more interesting to read and write, but what initially sold me on Spuffy was really the acting.

First, you have Spike, who was the most dynamic character on the show. James commanded my attention and made me love him. And, as with any ensemble cast like this, there is the tendency to want the main character with the person who is your favorite and the most dynamic. (The same thing happened on Veronica Mars with Logan, and I will admit that, when I started watching Heroes, I wanted Peter and Claire to get together because they were my favorite characters... for the record, I now realize why that's awkward and icky.) So, loving Spike as much as I do, the obvious result is that I want Buffy to love him, too... even when it didn't always make sense for the character.

Plus, Buffy and Spike on screen together was magic. James has chemistry with anyone and everyone, but he and SMG really were incredible together. Right from the very beginning, the sexual tension was there, their fight scenes were always charged, and they played it masterfully, even without really knowing the direction Buffy and Spike were going to go in.

As it developed, and as Spike changed and the relationship got more complex, a lot of the character-related things already mentioned came into play, and that's where I get my inspiration to write Spuffy, but as far as what got me into them as a couple? It was what was happening on the screen.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.

Jan 22 2008 07:40 pm #7Guest

Guest

I love Spuffy because of the chemistry the have with one another. Even from the beginning in the alley scene I found they had ten times more chemistry than Bangel. Because, whether the writer's intended it or not, there was foreshadowing in season two about what their relationship was going to be.

Spike from the very first moment he stepped out of the Desoto and on the screen commanded my attention. He just had such a dynamic and presence to him. Then, the caring and love he showed the sick Drusilla clinched my interest in him. I found that the 'soulless' vampire showed more passion and care in his relationship with Drusilla then Angel did the whole time he was with Buffy on screen.

So when Spike realized his love for Buffy and the levels that it brought him to, it was astounding. What he did for a woman he didn't even know would ever love him back, it was amazing. So few people love that truly and passionately. It was complex and full of contradictions. Spike and Buffy had everything that Angel and Buffy didn't. I couldn't picture Angel and Buffy laughing together, truly having a good time, but I can picture Buffy laughing and having a good time with Spike once she let down her walls.

Jan 22 2008 08:06 pm #8nmcil

It's All About The Journey -

I totally love, respect, admire, and believe in the metaphor that is Spike and Spike&Buffy -

Love your post - well said

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.

Jan 22 2008 08:11 pm #9nmcil

What a great film work and directing with that transitions shot of Vamp Spike into Human Face Spike when he turns to Drusilla - absolutely wonder film making.

Jan 22 2008 08:51 pm #10TammyDevil666

I watched Buffy since the very beginning, so I was for Bangel back then. I didn't really find the Spuffy love until some time in the 5th season. I don't even think I liked Spike until then. I remember being so grossed out the first time I saw "Something Blue," now it's one of my favorite episodes.

When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.

Jan 22 2008 10:38 pm #11Quark

I blame fanfiction. :) When the show was on it was fairly obvious (s4 and s5 anyway) they were going to put Spike and Buffy together at some point in the future. When they brought Spike back on during season four as this sort of pathetic guy with the ditz girlfriend I thought that was pretty lame. It was the easy route. Spike became this sort of ... reversal of what he had been in season two. Sure, it was the chip, but I really wasn't a fan of the way they went with the character. He as better as a bad guy. More unpedictable, less romance-novel hero-ish. They already had their funny man, Xander, and turning Spike into the comic relief seemed like poor writing to me. Throwing him into the unrequited crush roll so he and Buffy could look cute together was just too easy. Too predictable. (Keep in mind this was my attitude while watching it as it aired.) During the final season of the show I stumbled upon fanfiction for the first time and read a Spike/Buffy pairing that branched off into an AU after the first or second episode of that season and it just ... clicked. After that I had a hard time imagining Buffy with anyone else.

Don't have that trouble with Spike though. ;)

Re-watching it now I'm not nearly as annoyed, but there is still this little voice wishing it hadn't been so predictable.

~ Q

~ Q

Jan 23 2008 02:33 am #12LindsayH

I started watching the show on FX reruns, and for about a month and a half, I was in lurve with Bangel. Then I heard Spike's "I want to save the world" speech and knew that Angel was toast. Not just for me, but for Buffy, too. Even though Buffy ended up taking longer to convince.
I thought Spike could give her something she had lost when she was chosen, because, like Xander and Willow, he was helping because he wanted to keep the world safe, not out of duty or because of "ought" or "should." And of course I have always loved the idea that without a soul Angel couldn't love Buffy, but Spike kept so much of his humanity. That was Spike--just when Buffy got used to things, he would push or pull her totally off balance. It seems like the greatest love stories have that element to them.

"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'

Jan 24 2008 06:02 pm #13nmcil

"Sure, it was the chip, but I really wasn't a fan of the way they went with the character. "

Don't you think that using the Chip as a plot device both continuity to The Initiative arc and Spike's removal from being the killer; he could not be allowed to remain in his Big Bad persona. Having chipped Spike allows for his ability to function as the killer through minions or other devices, thus the tension of uncertainty remained. Plus, how long could they sustain the Buffy vs Spike duel without turning Spike into a "forever failure." Spike was placed into a role, from the start, of failed attempts to kill Buffy even as his fangs are ready for the drain, Joyce is able to defeat him.

What alternative role could he have taken after? If he remained in the role of Evil Vamp, he would have to have been killed fairly early in the series as there was already a primary male vampire character in Angel. If Spike remained as The Big Bad, don't you think an entire season would have to have been created around that theme? The problem with keeping Spike as evil vamp was that the writers bogged his character so many failed killer of Buffy scenes.

When did I start liking Buffy and Spike together? from the moment Spike wakes up from his Buffy as Lover nightmare and we know that his great fear is his potential to love and to be consumed by that love. I loved that scene when his described himself as "an empty shell."

Jan 24 2008 06:11 pm #14dawnofme

I like Spuffy so much because I have a thing for the "enemies falling in love". The first episode of Buffy that I saw was Something Blue. The writing was so good and the episode was so much fun. Not to mention how hot I thought Spike was, instantly.

There are lots of good reasons stated above, but the enemies draw to each other is what got me hooked right away.

Jan 24 2008 10:49 pm #15Quark

Don't you think that using the Chip as a plot device both continuity to The Initiative arc and Spike's removal from being the killer; he could not be allowed to remain in his Big Bad persona. Having chipped Spike allows for his ability to function as the killer through minions or other devices, thus the tension of uncertainty remained. Plus, how long could they sustain the Buffy vs Spike duel without turning Spike into a "forever failure." Spike was placed into a role, from the start, of failed attempts to kill Buffy even as his fangs are ready for the drain, Joyce is able to defeat him. What alternative role could he have taken after? If he remained in the role of Evil Vamp, he would have to have been killed fairly early in the series as there was already a primary male vampire character in Angel. If Spike remained as The Big Bad, don't you think an entire season would have to have been created around that theme? The problem with keeping Spike as evil vamp was that the writers bogged his character so many failed killer of Buffy scenes.

I don't like how they handled it. The chip became a way to turn Spike into more of a comical character with too many contradictions against the sort of character he was in s2 without much of a lead in. The Gem of Amara episode that led into the AtS episode was a good beginning because the audience saw him as a intelligent, if impulsive, bad guy. After the chip suddenly he's a bit stupid and unable to take care of himself after more than a century of survival not just taking care of himself, but a crazy Drusilla. Huh? Doesn't compute. Starving? Too stupid to grab the first minion he found and drain it? Doesn't make any sense. At least not against the character already in place.

He's been injured before and unable to hunt. The Master - head of his line - was trapped underground for decades. Angel fed off rats, and drank animals blood. He's got real world experience and vicarious knowledge (in canon) in dealing with and knowing about eating one step removed from the harming humans route. He's smart enough to study the slayer before going up against her. He's got the ability to hunt down supposedly lost artifacts using either his own knowledge or the knowledge of others. Yet, the chip had him starving and begging the Scoobies for food and help within the span on one episode. Imagine Wesley from s1 of AtS suddenly turning into Wesley of s5. It doesn't make much sense without the experiences of the in between seasons does it? Spike was handicapped by the chip just as he was with the wheelchair but handled it in such a slapstick and unintelligent way it didn't ring true with the character they created.

There was so much potential there with the chip and they turned it into vaudeville. Ropes tying a master vampire to a wooden chair? Keeping him in the bathtub while feeding him from a novelty mug? Sure, it's funny but it would have been more believable if Spike had a scene or two where it was made obvious he was putting up with that crap for a reason, or using them to his advantage. Or, at the very least, had some plan that fell flat.

Plus, I really didn't like the continued theme of "kick the Spike" where Buffy was punching him whenever he said something she didn't like and Xander picking on him, etc. Once or twice, no biggie, but over and over. Gaah. Just wrong. Sure, good guys are flawed and they each had their issues but what a contradiction. Suddenly they are petty. Where's the gang that, if reluctantly, allowed Angel back into the fold? Where's the people who accepted Cordelia and all her meanness? Where's Defender Buffy who doesn't put up with people picking on her friends or others weaker than them? Apparently they took a vacation along with Spike's brain.

Got off on a bit of a tangent. :) Didn't mean to derail the thread.

~ Q

~ Q

Jan 24 2008 11:26 pm #16nmcil

I don't think that anyone can argue that BtVS, while a wonderful TV show, and one of the best weekly programs ever, did have many problems of continuity - it is obvious that Spike pre-chip has the intelligence and experience to cope with not being able to hunt. Unfortunately he also had his background of failures to kill Buffy and his cold blooded killer the writers were trying to move away from. This is the Spike that without and concern or hesitation stabs Harmony to test the ring on. How could he make any new connections with the Scoobies and Buffy working from that character? Sure, the comedic twist used to insert him with his chip, makes the character silly, but it also distracts the viewers from the vamp killer history and makes his transition into a potential ally or useful fighter on the side of the white hats a possibility. And while, IMO, he does take on the role of funny side-man, he still functions as a character of intelligence and abilities for action - just look at him in The Yoko Factor - and in the episode when his tries to have the chip removed. It was not Spike's lack of ability to take action, but the inability of the Dr. to perform the operation that causes that failed plan. Was it ever a realistic plan to have this scenario for his chip removal - of course not. The obvious solution would have been to have it removed magically but then the character has to go into an entirely different direction; away from character that will ever function amongst the Buffy circle other than as a Vampire Killer.

I loved Spike pre-chip and pre-love of Buffy but that is not the character that eventually I admire and respect and ends up being the most interesting of all The Buffyverse. That Spike, for me would have been another Caleb - a remarkable character but one that we always be an instrument of all the darkness and negative forces at work within a social structure.

Jan 24 2008 11:51 pm #17Quark

I guess that's where I get frustrated. I understand what they (the writers) were trying to do - turn Spike into a potential member of the group - but they never let him be one and the exchanged what he was (a ruthless survivor) into a bumbling love sick moron just to put him, eventually, into the leading man role while turning their main four into petty bullies. Spike was a better foil for Buffy in s2, and even in s3's "Lover's Walk." He was able to ally himself with Buffy (something Caleb never would have done) for survival's sake (and Dru's) if nothing else. S4 served to recreate Spike into an almost entirely different vampire. Even in "The Yoko Factor" they turned it around to make Spike look like an idiot at the end. I get they were trying to soften him to make him more acceptable, but I'm just never going to like their choices because even if I buy it - Spike the bumbling oaf - I can't buy him putting up with their treatment or trying to stake himself. Not a vampire that survived the wheelchair, Angelus, Buffy herself and a two other slayers. Sorry. It's just too big of a stretch. Love the show. Love the characters. Even enjoy the story despite all my complaints. Can't say I like where they went with the Spike/Buffy interaction. Spike's journey to the lighter shade of gray should have been more ... something. Profound, maybe? Difficult? Less like Clown School? I can't say I know exactly what because it's already set in canon.

Which is probably why I enjoy fanfiction so much. Lots of potential for fixing all of that.

And now back to the regularly scheduled thread. ;)

How about that Spuffy, eh? Great stuff!

*chuckle*

~ Q

~ Q

Jan 25 2008 01:19 am #18Eowyn315

I pretty much agree with you, Quark. I can't remember what thread it was on (pet peeves, I think) but it was this very characterization of Spike that bothered me. I thought they recovered somewhat when he fell in love with Buffy - at least then he had a reason to be hanging around and putting up with the Scoobies' treatment. And yeah, it's pretty difficult to go from ruthless killer to devoted lover, but I don't think we needed hapless clown in the middle. I'm sure they could've found another way to get there. They even gave themselves opportunities - Buffy and Spike teaming up in Becoming, Spike bonding with Joyce in Lover's Walk, the love spell in Something Blue (if they'd known they were going in the Spike-loves-Buffy direction, they could've used the spell to prompt his feelings and skipped all the in between nonsense, as many a fanfic writer has).

it also distracts the viewers from the vamp killer history and makes his transition into a potential ally or useful fighter on the side of the white hats a possibility.

You know what bothers me about that sentence? It distracts. I don't want to be distracted. I don't want to forget that Spike's a killer. The Scoobies certainly haven't forgotten. Glossing over Spike's past in order to make him a regular character is what made a lot of people dislike Spike in the first place. I don't want it glossed over; I want it dealt with. I want it to seem logical that even with his history, he is still a viable member of the group - he's already proven his usefulness, he's proven he can be trusted (well, sometimes...), he still can't hurt anyone with the chip, and loving Buffy gives him a reason to stick around. So why did we need the clown routine?

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.

Jan 25 2008 03:27 am #19Quark

I don't want to be distracted. I don't want to forget that Spike's a killer. The Scoobies certainly haven't forgotten. Glossing over Spike's past in order to make him a regular character is what made a lot of people dislike Spike in the first place. I don't want it glossed over; I want it dealt with. I want it to seem logical that even with his history, he is still a viable member of the group - he's already proven his usefulness, he's proven he can be trusted (well, sometimes...), he still can't hurt anyone with the chip, and loving Buffy gives him a reason to stick around. So why did we need the clown routine?

Absolutely. That is what is missing in the character's development. I would have rather have seen him being pulled in reluctantly because situations forced his hand (like the Angelus-Acathla incident) and have him still doing the frustrating bad guy thing - like leaving with Dru while Buffy and Angel were still fighting - until something, some situation forced him to reevaluate and change his actions without making him come off as some kind of idiot. The series, s4 in particular, was rife with opportunity for those sorts of sub-plots. Instead they stole Xander's funny-man hat and forced it on Spike's head.

*sigh*

~ Q

~ Q

Jan 26 2008 05:36 am #20goldenusagi

You know, Quark, there was always something bugging me about the chip (besides the fact that he was able to beat up the Initiative guys and knock Willow around without it going off), but until I read your post (several posts above), I didn't realize what else it was. Yeah, so he can't bite or hit anymore, and all of a sudden he's a whimpering wreck. Which he never was before (except when Dru left him, but that's another story). All of a sudden he's pathetic and dumb and not resourceful. He was incredibly resourceful before, and while he was too impatient for most of his plans to work, he certainly wasn't dumb. And why DID he go to the Scoobies? What exactly did he think the Scoobies would do? Fix him up to go killing again? He might be hoping they'll track down the soldiers for him, and he'll get a little non-participant revenge (aiming a 'loose canon' at the Initiative in the form of Buffy), but that's about all I could come up with. You could say he went for the blood, but he could have easily robbed the butchers or nicked it from the hospital. It really doesn't make sense when you think about it, and it brings Spike down from what they developed him from. *sigh* Alas, Buffy is not known for continuity. I realize they had to get him with the Scoobies and have a reason, but couldn't they have had that 'love dream' a bit earlier?

Jan 26 2008 07:02 am #21nmcil

O.K. - here is the main problem, strictly from the perspective of the basic problems with bringing Spike in as a regular character. The chip has now made him unable to hunt, so his options for feeding are 1. dependence on minions to hunt for him and bring him his food - how long would that work in a predators social structure? The Master has minions and servants but he was a symbol of royalty and has a sacred stature. Spike is a master vampire, but a crippled predator (don't forget that at this point he does not know he can hurt or defend himself against other vamps and demons. In the world of predators, the injured and weakened do not last long, they are the first to be hunted. 2. Spike could steal his food, that is certainly an option, but how would this change his status as a potential fighter working for the Scoobies. The issue of what is really Good & Evil we won't be concerned with now as that is a very different discussion. Spike buying and stealing his food, unable to defend himself personally, stills has him in an extremely vulnerable position. Suppose his answer is to have minions bring him human food - the only place that situation could go is being killed by The Slayer or The Scoobies - or he will eventually have to leave Sunnydale. That Spike with that chip was changed in a basic way is made clear with Riley and their confrontation over Buffy. When Riley tells Spike he, unlike Buffy has no guilt or problems with killing him - Spike answers that he would like to see him try and they confronts each other with extremely hostile facial stares - BUT it is Spike that looks away first. Pre-chip Spike would never have allowed that situation; a chipped/crippled predator Spike has now undergone a fundamental change. Spike the survivor with chip must either adapt to live within the rules of Buffy's world, or live in constant stress about being killed by The Slayer, or he must have her killed, or he must leave Sunnydale.

This was a show All About Buffy and not a show about Buffy and Spike in continual confrontation or Spike the Big Bad Vampire. Spike had to be allowed to change and transcend his vampire killer history while at the same time being a minor character.

If was extremely unfortunate that his transition from earlier seasons and his capture by The Initiative was not given more screen time and a much better exploration but we have to consider that the season story arc was the exploration of Good and Evil of The Initiative and the Romance and Relationship of Buffy;s search for life with Mr. Joe Normal Riley. For good or bad, that was the story arc when Spike was taken and chipped. Yes indeed there were so many more interesting things that could have been done with Spike's story, unfortunately he was not the primary story arc character. - Tthe writers took an easier path, comedic Spike, instead of a deeper exploration of options that he might have taken as the survivor and vulnerable predator - but they were not telling the tale of Spike.

Jan 26 2008 08:14 am #22Scarlet Ibis

For the sake of keeping us all sane...Let's just say that the insertion of the chip, as well as all of the times it electrocuted his brain, it left him slightly (but not permanently) brain damaged. The writers had to figure out a way to insert him in the inner circle folks, while at the same time, keep him on the outside. Sure, some fan fic writer could've done a better job at the explanations...but it's done. Spike knew that the Scoobies and Giles were Goody McDo Gooders (or should I say specifically Giles? Spike already has an invite to the Summers' home as well as Buffy's dorm, but he goes to the Watcher's flat for help--that says something), and the Initiative was, well, essentially evil. And who are the people who consistently thwrated Spike's evil plans? Why not go to them for help? Furthermore, they actually helped and protected him when the Initiative was chasing after him. Buffy defends his presence to Riley. He was all like "You knew we've been searching all over for Hostile 17!!" And her response was what? "Yada yada, he can't hurt anyone, yada, but we're helping him anyway," to her boyfriend, who's losing his friggin' mind all the while. Not to mention that when Spike finally showed up for help, it's revealed he (unsuccessfully) attacked Willow, while on his search to take revenge and/or kill Buffy, but they help him anyway.

Also, part of Spike's persona, his bravado, was throwing his weight around--dusting vamps that pissed him off, breaking the necks of people he thought were too old to eat. He thought he was utterly helpless against anyone or anything. Who doesn't hurt the helpless? His mortal enemy and her friends, of course.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Jan 26 2008 04:38 pm #23Eowyn315

I can understand Spike ultimately needing to go to the Scoobies to get them to take out the Initiative or because he thought he was helpless (and in a meta sense, because he needed some way to be incorporated into the group), but I still find it hard to believe that he couldn't figure out a way to feed himself without them. And I also - as I mentioned above - think that we didn't need to be distracted by silly antics like Spike's suicide attempt or shrinking his clothes. Do we really believe that Spike would rather set up an elaborate mechanism to fall on a stake rather than just wait for daylight? Or that, in the fifty-or-so years that washers and dryers have been around, he's never used one? I can't believe he has enough patience to hand wash his clothes, so... what? Does he just throw them out when they get dirty? Do we think that Spike really wouldn't have caught the flaw in his plan in "The Yoko Factor"? (Trivia: that actually came about because the writers didn't see the flaw in the plan until it was already in motion, and so they had to make Spike stupid, because they were stupid.)

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.

Jan 26 2008 07:12 pm #24nmcil

No doubt, total NO LOGIC - Nor particularly funny - but again, I think this is about transition - Spike can still be a killer and eventually work on the side of the series heroic side. Heroic Side, a side with great many flaws but still Buffy and her Scooby sidekicks are the series White Hats, whether we like it or not.

Great thing with all the FF writers, they can give us a totally different Spike, Buffy, and Scoobies. And who the hell ever came up with Scoobies - now that I think about it Scoobies Title is in fact my A Number One Pet Peevee.

Jan 26 2008 10:03 pm #25Eowyn315

I'm pretty sure Xander was the first one to call them the Scooby gang.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.

Jan 26 2008 10:39 pm #26Quark

No matter how much I like the character of Spike, enjoy the show or understand the reasoning of the writers behind it I'm always going to think Spike's development had an enormous bump (an avoidable one) during the chip phase which led to ripples through the rest of the cast of characters. I don't have a problem with the plot device - the chip itself - because its rather neat and quirky as a way to force the character to see humans as more significant than snack food. I don't have a problem with Spike going to his enemies for help either. My issue is the incredibly out of character behavior, actions and dumbing down the audience saw from a previously far better supporting character.

And true, as much as I'd rather see it differently this wasn't an ensemble show. It was "all about Buffy" so it is probably unrealistic to expect the creators and writers to focus on continuity with supporting characters such as Spike. But, -and here's my biggest issue- they didn't stay consistent with Buffy either when it went against the plot, or maybe better stated when it would have made the plot more complicated. I'm going to hold to my belief that it was possible for them to tell the story without turning Spike into a half-baked clown, or Buffy and the rest of her friends into emotionally obtuse bullies. Enjoying the show as much as I do, how can I not wish they had reached for the best?

I've read more than one interview/article/essay where someone or other claims the reason the show never won any of the big awards was because it was a horror show about vampires with a silly title. It's probably a little more honest to recognize that they missed the mark, time and again, when it came to great show essentials like continuity, keeping characters in character, creating a solid background world and let's face it - great acting. I'm more than aware I'm going to get some flack for stating this, but the lead actress, while good, wasn't always great. If the supporting cast had been even the tiniest bit less spectacular than they were I doubt we would have seen seven seasons. Being professional, always knowing one's lines, giving a technically flawless performance isn't always enough. Great acting, in my opinion, isn't always definable but I know it when I see it.

This show that I love has some serious flaws, but I watch it anyway and I don't turn my head and just accept the screw ups. Spike the clown was an enormous screw up. Buffy the abuser was a ginormous screw up. And so on, and so forth. No matter the argument I'm never going to buy that Spike, the character from s2, s3, didn't drain the first minion he found after escaping the Initiative and didn't spent the next however long testing every single limitation of the chip so he knew exactly what he was dealing with. No matter the argument I'm never going to buy that often bullied and treated like crap Xander, and even Willow, would support and participate in bullying behaviors toward anything they saw as unable to fight back - certainly not repeatedly. I'm not going to buy them letting Buffy get away with it, without at least calling her on it or vice versa from her. S4 Spike, and by extension how he was treated by the others was lazy writing in an effort to get laughs, or maybe to make Spike more likable to keep him on the show. Whatever the reason, it didn't work. They ended up with a radically changed character and lots of little continuity issues that could have been avoided.

Think the horse is dead yet?

(I officially declare this thread derailed and its probably all my fault.)

~ Q

~ Q

Jan 27 2008 05:22 am #27nmcil

Well - It sounds like your Spike trying to figure out the parameters of the chip and how he can get around it would make a great story - this could lead to his making a choice to go either way - Stay as The Big Bad or Stay as The Big Bad but make a choice to work with Buffy. I don't think I have ever come across a work that explores his options after his escape from The Initiative. Wish one of your wonderful wrtiers would write that story for us.

Jan 27 2008 06:03 am #28goldenusagi

Spike does come across as slightly dumb in Pangs, considering that he was smart enough to escape in the Initiative, and break into a campus office in order to track Buffy down. Speaking of the Initiative, which I just watched, when Forrest wants to quarantine Willow because she might have been turned--um, obviously the Initiative guys are are not up on their vampire lore at all. Considering the fact that she hasn't even been BITTEN (dude, look at her neck), vamps don't rise in 5 minutes, nor do they have a pulse.

Jan 27 2008 07:16 am #29SpikeHot

No matter the argument I'm never going to buy that often bullied and treated like crap Xander, and even Willow, would support and participate in bullying behaviors toward anything they saw as unable to fight back - certainly not repeatedly. I'm not going to buy them letting Buffy get away with it, without at least calling her on it or vice versa from her.

If we're talking season four, then I don't see a problem in the Scoobys behavior. It hasn't been long since Spike tried to kill them, they can't just switch their feelings from hate to pity, even though it was clear Willow pitied and felt bad for Spike. The Scoobys were becoming too trusting of Spike that they paid for it in The Yoko Factor. Didn't Xander provide Spike army clothes just before he was manipulated by Spike? Wasn't Giles still keeping blood for Spike right before he was manipulated by Spike?

If Spike hadn't betrayed them, I can see that maybe they would have accepted him sooner.

Jan 27 2008 07:21 am #30Scarlet Ibis

Actually...though I haven't watched s4 recently, from what I recall, and please, someone tell me if I'm wrong, the parameters of the chip weren't fully defined yet--like it wasn't fully functioning until like twenty-four hours later or whatever. He's able to escape the Initiative with some semi violence against those lab techs, right? He's able to push through Riley and his friends to jump out the window, which comes after not being able to bite Willow. Once the chip has "settled in" or whatever, he can't even point a fake gun in Xander's direction. Now, this could be another snafu cause of the writers, but the first couple of eps while he's chipped, he can at least push people. As soon as he escaped the Initiative, he goes gunning for Buffy, and is kinda one tracked mind about it. He clearly didn't have time to kill anyone (I don't think) between escaping, and going to Buffy's dorm.

Spike trying to stake himself, well, is that really completely OOC? Sunlight takes too long--the waiting, and the slow burn, and Spike's Mr. Impatient. A quick stake in the heart is well, quick. Spike has lost a big part of his facade due to the chip, and is forced to live in a basement with Xander (granted, he could have found a demon doctor somewhere...but brain surgery is a big deal--perhaps he didn't trust it. When that doc comes to town for Riley, that was clearly a much more viable option), and notice how he doesn't try to off himself at Giles, where I suppose he had some semblance of dignity, but yeah, he tries to kill himself. What's the point, after all? No Dru, no Big Bad, no nothing. He gets over it in the same ep, of course (and hey, depression really isn't OOC, now that I think of it, and that's exactly what that was for him), with the aide of Willow, and learning he can kill demons. Xander takes cheap verbal shots at Spike, sure, but that's what he does. He did it to Angel all the time, and at least he's not putting his hands on Spike. Taunting him and verbal spars are one thing--hitting someone who can't hit back is a whole other can.

And Spike wasn't a complete buffoon as I recall it (though clearly, others are recalling this the exact opposite, but I'm working my way up to s4 real soon), and had several insightful moments. "Pangs" specifically comes to mind...damn, I have to rewatch the season. Anyway, Spike has layers, and considering the hell he went through that is season four, I can suspend my disbelief. Granted, season four is probably my least favorite season...but the Spike bits (and other bits) made it kinda fun. Even so, I did still not tune in every week when it first aired for that season sometime around "Where the Wild Things Are," and didn't see it in its entirety until later. Actually, it was "Restless" that specifically renewed my interest. And how strange is it that I'm kinda defending a season that I didn't even bother to watch all the way through the first time around? Yup, Strange is my middle name.

Spike washing his clothes--I assume he had minions for that, or stole tons of the same black shirt and pants and threw out the dirty ones. Pre-chip, he didn't have to hurt for money, or minions, and I'm sure clothes fit into that as well. Or hey, maybe Xander had a crap washer and dryer, and it screwed up the clothes, or you had to use very specific settings, and Spike wasn't aware of them. It happens (with old washers and dryers--my washer machine, in fact, has to be closed a specific way in order for it to complete the cycle).

And um...which flaw in Spike's plan, exactly? Buffy figuring out he was separating them on purpose? Been a minute since I saw that ep, so someone has to break that part down for me.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Jan 27 2008 07:32 am #31SpikeHot

I tend to shrink my clothes sometimes, I don't really think it's about being stupid. I think Spike was a comic relief in season four like Xander and Anya, but I think he had it better than Anya, he gets to have insightful moments as Scarlet said, and he gets to be in all episodes, he gets to have a story, where Anya was just Xander's tactless girlfriend.

Jan 27 2008 08:05 am #32Eowyn315

the parameters of the chip weren't fully defined yet--like it wasn't fully functioning until like twenty-four hours later or whatever.

That was never actually specified. It WAS a writer's snafu - they didn't know what they were doing with the chip. Spike does indeed hurt humans in his escape from the Initiative, and then is able to wrestle with Willow and hold her down on the bed in order to bite her. It's only the actual attempt to bite that causes pain. For pretty much the entire rest of the series, the causes of the chip's firing depended solely on whatever the plot (or joke) called for, and not any semblance of continuity.

He clearly didn't have time to kill anyone (I don't think) between escaping, and going to Buffy's dorm.

No, he didn't - otherwise he would've discovered the chip before he attacked Willow. But after he escaped from the dorm, what was stopping him from testing it out? Especially considering the limited circumstances in which it first operated - he should've concluded that he could hurt people, just not bite them. But at some point, he apparently determined (without ever testing the theory) that he couldn't hurt ANY living thing, only to be proven wrong a few episodes later, when he realized he could hurt demons.

And um...which flaw in Spike's plan, exactly? Buffy figuring out he was separating them on purpose?

No. The original plan was for Spike to "steal" some disks from the Initiative and give them to Willow to decrypt them. The contents of the disks were meant to lure Buffy to the Initiative for Adam's big massacre. But then Spike's plan of separating the Scoobies meant that Willow wouldn't be speaking to Buffy to give her the information, so Spike pretty much screwed himself with Adam. But actually it was the writers who forgot Willow needed to be talking to Buffy to give her the info when they came up with the brilliant "Yoko" plan, so they turned it into Spike's screw-up to cover their asses.

Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.

Jan 27 2008 08:15 am #33Scarlet Ibis

Well, perhaps Spike did try to hurt other humans for food--he must've. By the time he realizes he can't bite any human, and he's so starved and hungry, what's the point of trying to pick a fight with some demon just to see if he can? The not being able to hurt humans had to have been an incredibly blow, and hope was fading fast, I'm sure.

Spike's flawed plan...really, the writers could've just had Spike get the info from Willow, and give them to Buffy. It's common knowledge that Adam's been dissecting demons in the most awful of ways, leaving their part around town, so why would Spike be working with him? Him wanting the Slayer to take the patchwork bastard down would've been plausible. Of course, they just had to have Spike screw it up altogether instead...I think we can all agree that wasn't the first or last time the writer's completely missed the mark.

"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel

Jan 27 2008 04:10 pm #34Izzy

I do believe that Spike would have tried to find out the exact limitations of his chip, and if he did go to the gang at Giles' it wouldn't just be as a charity case. He should have had some excuse or ulterior motive or evil agenda to keep him occupied. Instead they just made him mopey and annoying with nothing to do. I do understand him not thinking about demons being different from humans because that part of the chip always confused me. It can tell the biological make-up of whatever being that comes in contact with Spike and if that being feels pain caused by Spike? I don't think intent, which is mostly thoughts, could also be measured by the chip when Spike can't shoulder his way through a crowd without feeling pain. It's not exactly scientific or logical, which is a shame because it would have been a much better plot device that way and not so obviously serving that one purpose of taking away Spike's bite.

Jan 27 2008 10:04 pm #35nmcil

If I can shrink and destroy my Christmas Gift of a 100% excellent quality very beautiful Pendleton throw blanket, I am sure that Spike can just as easily have has washing clothes disaster -

And for Spike being presented as "dumbing down" his answer to Willow's argument regarding the subjugation and destruction of the indigenous population is actually a very realistic and intelligent assessment of human history. Spike being used as Comic sideman did not make him an automatic Blockhead - there were times when his character is used for cheap comic effect - i.e., "Damaged" with that scene Angel when he was thrown out of the window by Dana His beautiful and poignant scene with Buffy in the empty house is almost ruined by the writers having him describe himself as following his blood and his plans are sometimes not good (sorry again for having to paraphrase) That "I follow my blood was used to try for some continuity with the idea that Spike's plan were not usually effective and failed - I do think the writers made a big mistake with that line and that it did a big disservice to the character.

Jan 27 2008 10:21 pm #36nmcil

To love the Buffyverse one has to oftentimes dispense with the logic of the real world -

Think about the chip - the only way that it could work and still be an effective deterrent would be for it to work on intent. If it is to protect humans then it must work on intent and be able to identify a human being - without the chip's capability to measure intent how would it even work as protection? What good would it serve if it can only inflict excruciating and debilitating pain after the fact? In any cause of life and death scenario, either to himself or Buffy and Dawn or when he felt there was not alternative, Spike would have taken on the pain caused by the chip.