There are some factors I used to read in fanfiction and believed for so many years to be canon but then they all ended up fanon, like Buffy not allowing Dawn to see Spike. I watched season six so many times searching for the moment but there was no mention to it. Then I thought that it could never be possible, because if Buffy did do that, Dawn being the stubborn girl she is would never leave it be. She'd rebell or sneak out to meet Spike. I think the blame for the lack of Spike/Dawn scenes ins season six lies on Spike and Dawn themselves.

Then there's Spike calling Xander whelp, I swear to God I used to hear him in my head calling Xander that, but then I discovered it wasn't canon. Same thing goes with him calling Tara Glinda.

Also, there's Spike's crypt being trashed by Xander in season seven. I don't even remember Spike's crypt being trashed in the first place.

The childe thing. I'm still not sure if it's really fanon, I never heard of it in the show, but maybe Dru had mentioned it in some episode. And why the 'e' in the end? Vampires are still stuck in the Old English times.

i thought I heard Angel once say something about a sire, but I could be wrong, lol. the childe thing I think might have come from some other author on vampires like Ann Rice or someone. Even on Moonlight he talked about being sired by his ex-wife.

I remember reading a few fics which potrayed Spike as being an evil human I had thought that for the longest. i have no idea why i didn't remember Lover's Walk. But when I saw the eppie again i was like "hey!" lol. I think what it is canon and fanon blend together confusing us.

In School Hard, when Angel and Spike confront each other, Spike says... and I think I got the quote right... "You were my sire man, my yoda..."  at any rate, Spike does call Angel his Sire...

Spike has called Angel sire on btvs and grandsire on ats. But I've never heard childe used on either show, though Dru was calling Darla her baby after she turned her.

~ d

Well i might be assuming here, but using the term Sire opend the can on Vampire terms in my eyes, even if they never actually said Childe per say.

Did spike never refer to tara as glinda in the ep where her family returns and he klocks her? at any rate Glinda/Whelp are two of the best monicres thats come out of fanon. It is spike typical, and maybe it has to be fanon because even the production team wouldnt pay that much attention to great detail.

Know what, i always assumed that  the crypt was close to uninhabitable after rileys visit and then it came down at the end of s6 with willows "i shall end the world"

Or it belonged to Clem  (man that was a cracking beetle he had) and Spilliam wouldnt wish to return to the place of so many liaisons and bad memories.

I know that sire is canon, but the word "childe" was never mentioned on the show. Unless it was an obvious word to use. I never read Ann Rice.

Yeah, "whelp" is one of my fanon pet peeves - also calling Angel "peaches." Unlike the other nicknames, Spike did use it once, in Lover's Walk when he was very, very drunk. But it's a term of endearment, like love or pet, and I can't imagine Spike actually calling Angel that when he's sober. And it's definitely not Spike's nickname for him. I have no idea why fanon has taken such a liking to it that it's become Spike's traditional pet name for Angel.

On the sire/childe thing, I don't know enough about other vampire mythologies to know if these two terms are always used together. I wouldn't say that just because "sire" was used on the show, it automatically means that "childe" is considered canon as well. Joss seemed very deliberate in picking and choosing what vampire lore to include in the Buffyverse. That doesn't mean you can't use "childe"... but it doesn't make it any more correct (according to canon) than any other term you could come up with for a vampire you've sired.

Another one that just came up on another thread is Spike's attachment to his car. There's a lot of DeSoto-love written in fanfic, even though we only see the car 3 or 4 times, and two of those times Spike's crashing it. 

I remember reading a few fics which potrayed Spike as being an evil human I had thought that for the longest.

Well, that one's a pretty easy mistake to make, if you were reading fics that were written before season 5. I think we all assumed Spike was bad as a human until we saw Fool for Love.

 Well, that one's a pretty easy mistake to make, if you were reading fics that were written before season 5. I think we all assumed Spike was bad as a human until we saw Fool for Love.

Nope, little ol' me didn't find fanfic, well BTVS fanfic until the Spring of 2005 or it could have been the tail end of 2004, lol. Can't really recall now, my poor memory. But for some reason i had completely forgotten about FFL and went with the fanon. That's why I really need to get the money together and buy those DVD's.

If memory serves, Buffy forbids Dawn to see Spike during season 5's "Crush." Would that be what the fic writers are referring to?

I' picked up a lot of stuff that isn't canon - mainly because I was reading so much stuff that had the same things in it that I assumed the writers knew what they were talking about. lol  I've kept the things that appeal to me or that work with my characters.   I don't know how much it matters that writers use fanon "facts" or terminology in addition (note - not "in place of") to Joss's as long as you know the difference and don't get into arguments about which is which.

I think of Peaches as being an insult, like calling Angel a nancy boy or something like that.  I definitely don't consider it to be a pet name.

Being a spangel girl, Peaches is sort of a way of saying I love you without saying the words. I don't particularly like it when it's over used as an insult.

Plus it's lots of fun thinking up all the ways Angel was given that name *cough*

I do think it's one of those names used to wind Angel up.

If memory serves, Buffy forbids Dawn to see Spike during season 5's "Crush." Would that be what the fic writers are referring to?

Maybe in some cases, but there was a specific conversation on the forum about Buffy forbidding Dawn to see Spike during season 6, and I think that's what the original post was referring to. That was supposedly the reason we didn't see as many Spike/Dawn scenes as we did in season 5. But Buffy never said anything like that in season 6, so any forbidding that's referred to during that time would be fanon.

Re: Peaches - Regardless of the way it's used in fics, whether it's an insult or a pet name - and I've seen both - it's not something that Spike used regularly. He has plenty of names that he *does* call Angel, mainly to rile him up (I don't actually recall Spike using any genuine terms of affection toward Angel), but Peaches isn't one of them.

Between 6th and 7th season, there was a spoiler floating around that Xander would trash Spike's crypt in retalliation for the AR. He didn't on the show, so I figure they changed their minds or it was misinformation. It stuck in some fics.

When I got into fanfic, I believed fanon and thought Elizabeth was Buffy's real name. It's not. It isn't what gets put on her headstone, in either the Gift, or in Nightmares, Season 1, and it isn't on her school records any time Willow hacked into the system. (Tough to catch, but pause and zoom in the right places and you'll see.)

Other persistant fanon, mating and claims. Neither one exists in the Buffyverse. At least not the way the fic writers use it. Marriage-like bond often includes a telepathic link between vampire and mate. Both come from other vamp lore, like 'Dracula' or 'Masquerade', the role playing game. 'Blade' has claimed humans but mostly in terms of food or potential turning.

The sire thing became confusing because the writers, after they aired the episode, decided that Angel siring Spike was too gay an image so they made all the major vamp sirings be boy-girl, unless the plot demanded it. (Angel/Penn/Lawson and Dru/Darla) Plus, it kinda makes sense for Spike to consider Angel his sire anyway. Dru was nuts and kinda helpless, who do you think taught Spike to be a vampire?

I am not a Spangel shipper, but I also believe that Angelus would have delighted in shocking and introducing the virginal, Victorian William to the other ways of the flesh. Spike's favorite epithet for Angel is not Peaches (a testicle or buns comment if I ever heard one), it's actually Poufter which means gay man.

~Varin

I don't mind Dru being his sire but changing it because it's too gay is ridiculous, especially when later revealed that his first choice in turning another vampire was actually male. Plus that’s like saying there’s something wrong with being gay, which there’s not.

Spike really should say puff not pouf but that's just a little niggle.

Not saying peaches isn't over used, just that it's good one for spangel shippers.

And yes I think Angelus would love to shock William that way, he was so innocent and naive as a human.

I will point out that in Angel S5 Spike pointed out that there was that one time between him and Angel. So I'm thinking poofter was given to Angel after that incedent, and I don't think it was something Spike submitted to willingly. And knowing Angelus it was right up his alley, lol.

There was at least one intimate canon encounter between Spike and Angel once at least in the past, according to Spike by what he tells Illyria.

I always thought that the whelp and Glinda nicknames were canon to, tell I re-watched the show and never saw mention to them. By then I liked them to much, and had become to use to the fanon terms. I have however heard the use of Spike's nicknames for Dawn on the show.

Nika

Hello, my name is IB, and I'm a canon nazi.  Okay, maybe not a complete nazi. :-) I don't mind fanon mythology, nicknames, etc., in fics.  In fact, when used for plot or characterization, they can be useful and entertaining.  I read fics with them, and I enjoy them.  I do, however, find very few things more aggravating than when a person insists something is canon when it's fanon; or, even worse, it's not so much fanon as a figment of his or her imagination :-P  I didn't start watching BtVS until just after the series ended, and I didn't start reading fanfic until I had seen ever episode of BtVS and AtS several times.  So, canon things don't tend to get jumbled with fanon things in my head.  

I looked up some stuff in transcripts and the Buffyverse Dialogue Database, and found some interesting facts:

Glory refers to Dawn as the whelp in "Blood Ties."  Cordelia (inhabited by the Jasmine power that was) refers to Willow as Glinda in the Angel episode "Orpheus."  That's neither Spike about Xander nor Spike about Tara, but I can definitely see how these things became fanon.  To Spike, Xander is kind of a wet-behind-the-ears young pup.  And Tara is definitely the good witch when Willow goes all crackhead :-P  Spike calls Angel both peaches and pouf when he's in the kitchen in "Lovers Walk."  Again, I can see how these would be used in fics 'cause they're just so fitting :-)

As for the whole vampire mating thing, I'd never even heard of that until I started reading fic.  At the time, I didn't follow any other vampire series (now I've been reading Anita Blake), but I'm sure that it leaked in from some other vampire mythology.  

Sire is definitely mentioned in canon.  Spike does call Angel his sire in "School Ties," and then we learn that it was Drusilla who sired Spike.  Frankly, I think that we can chalk that one up to inconsistencies in the storyline due to writers--and Joss--not knowing their canon as well as we do ;-)

As for the rest--Buffy forbidding Dawn to see Spike in Season Sex, the crypt being destroyed, Elizabeth--they're probably just a product of fic writers filling in the blanks that were left on the show and unfulfilled spoilers.  They'd make sense in canon, but they aren't canon.  I say let them be fanon.  Fan fic is so that fans can fill in the blanks and make up our own myths and write our own endings.

Addendum: Almost forgot.  Here's the page of the dialogue database that lists all of the characters' aka's: http://vrya.net/bdb/aka.php
I can't vouch for complete accuracy, but it's pretty damned comprehensive.

Disagree, Angelus never forced Spike to do anything he didn't want to. 

Canon: they have been intimate once.  Fanon: Spike being gay or bisexual, that's made up by slash-fans.

If Angelus had raped Spike then Spike would have easily gotten revenge long ago.

The sire-bit also makes sense, Dru sired him, Angelus taught him how to be a vampire.  Eventually Spike developed his own brand of evil, which Angelus didn't agree with.  He always hated how he couldn't control Spike.

Oh god, I once had one asshole take the time and effort to leave a review telling me my old penname - Elizabeth Anne Summers - was fanon, as if he was giving me a big realization. Twerp. (As for Elizabeth, I think that does stem from the fact that Buffy is a nickname for Elizabeth - there is at least one at my school that's an Elizabeth that goes by Buffy - freaking stupid sorority twit too....)

I have no problem with fanon and I like fics where they twist canon - because with so many fics out there it would be very boring and eventually overdone if everyone stuck to just strict canon. I have a friend who prefers AU for that reason, that she fears canon fics are unoriginal sometimes. *shrugs* I disagree - if the author is very imaginitive, it can be very good. But then, at the same time, I don't give a crap if I step on pet peeves - people step on mine and we can't make everyone happy seeing as there's always conflicting preferences among people and people are entitled to their tastes.

Also, after two long days of work and dealing with the stupid public I think I'm in my Sunday Night "Don't Give A Shit" mode, so I apologize.

But yes, I don't try to pretend the fanon or made-up stuff is canon - tho, may get confused but that's another story. If I got nitpicky about everything, though, I wouldn't have much to read, lol. Not saying there is no good fics out there, obviously, but not all of them are my cup of tea and I have a right to read what I like. :)

Hello, my name is IB, and I'm a canon nazi.

Ha! I should totally introduce myself that way, too. I'm like you, IB, watched the whole series before I ever read fanfic (and watched it recently, as I only saw it once the whole series was on DVD) so I'm pretty fresh on what's canon and what's not. I love that AKAs page... actually, the whole site is pretty useful.

Disagree, Angelus never forced Spike to do anything he didn't want to. 

Well, yes and no. He may never have forced "Spike" as we know him, but I think he could have forced him early on when he was still "William," before he developed the tough-guy Spike persona. I don't, however, think that the one time they were intimate that Spike brings up was a forced interaction. I don't think Spike would refer to it as intimate unless he did it willingly.

Hee ! okay, so if I have a canon question for a fic, I know who to go to, don't I? *cough*IB, Eowyn*cough*

I agree,BTW, with Eowyn's comment about the forced sex with Angelus. I didn't get the sense that Spike was talking about an unpleasant memory, and my initial reaction was "awwww, Joss is throwing the Spangel shippers a bone. Isn't that sweet?" LOL

It's nice to know that Peaches was actually used - it's one of my favorite nicknames (And it works either way, for me. It can be insulting or roughly affectionate - depending on his mood and the situation. He definitely uses it to irritate Angel - no question about that.)

ETA - whoa! Typed and posted that too fast, didn't I? Typos fixed, I think. I hope my meaning was clear, anyway. :)

I don't mind fanon or twisting canon as long as it's a new idea. I'm tired of old ideas that are not canon based happen in different kinds of stories. I hate reading that Buffy didn't allow Dawn to see Spike in season six, if it happened in one story, it's fine, but it seems to be the general idea that the Spuffy fans had adopted. It's not true. It didn't happen on the show. I can see it happening, but to put the blame on Buffy all the time is getting irritating, how about blaming Spike and Dawn for a change? That's a new idea that I'm not sure if anyone actually used. And it supprts canon the most.

On of my greatest pet peeves is when writers have Spike say 'Cor'. As far as i remember he never ever said it and it bugs me when ever i read it. Nor do i think that Spike and Darla hated each other, which seems rather popular in fanon. (The problem i think is that over both shows they only had maybe six, seven scenes together and yeah she was angry with him in FFL. But Spike had put them in danger. Anger is not hatred. And in Darla, she does say his name a little derogatory,  but i think that was more to do with insulting Angel than how she felt about Spike.)

I don't think so, like i said if Angelus had done something like that then Spike would have taken revenge.  And Spike isn't just a tough-guy exterior act, with the soul he isn't just Spike the bad-ass anymore but neither is he just William.  His life-experiences have formed him.  And soulles Spike himself very quickly became his own persona.

He wasn't a soft,fluffy puppy on the inside, he was a diabalicol evil monster.  And even Angelus knew not to cross some lines, he isn't invincible.  And if a threat from Dawn to set Spike on fire when he's asleep was possible, then a fledge Spike could easily do the same to a sleeping Angelus or exact revenge another way. 

Seey

And if a threat from Dawn to set Spike on fire when he's asleep was possible, then a fledge Spike could easily do the same to a sleeping Angelus or exact revenge another way.

I don't think a young Spike would dare do that to Angelus, fight him maybe but nothing like that. Besides he looked up to Angelus.

Yes and we're all very grateful for that bone. And the handholding. And that every time they argued they stood as close as possible. And that when Spike becomes corporal one of his first acts is to feel Angel’s chest.

*sigh*

Oh and don’t care if people think it’s sweet or take the piss, it’s our fantasy bubble and we’re happy to live there :P

Seey, I disagree. I think you're talking about a later genesis of Spike. I'm thinking of the newly turned William we saw in Lies My Parents Told Me and Destiny. He wasn't a "diabolical evil monster." He killed people, sure, that's what vampire do, but he loved his mother, he loved Drusilla, and he idolized Angelus. This is the guy who stuck his own hand in the sunlight because Angelus told him to. I really can't see him taking revenge on his idol - he didn't even try to fight for Drusilla (who he thought was his destiny) when he catches her with Angelus.

The Spike who had enough confidence to challenge and defeat a Slayer wouldn't let Angelus bully him. But it took some time to get to that point - and, interestingly enough, it was Angelus who toughened Spike up. Spike calls him his "Yoda" and says that Angelus was the one who made him a monster.

I agree with eowyn, except he did try and fight for Dru, he just got his ass kicked very easily.

Ha... yeah, you're right, he does try to fight, but it mostly consists of him charging at Angelus and getting knocked away like he's nothing. :) Poor boy.

It's hard to tell, since we don't see the conclusion of the scene (it switches to their fight in the present), but from the way Angel says "he's never beaten me before," I got the impression that Spike ended up accepting that he couldn't have Dru - up until he killed his first Slayer and became "worthy." (Of course, by that point, Angel had his soul and so didn't want Dru anymore, but Spike didn't know that.) The way Angelus acts with Spike in season 2, how quickly Dru goes back to him, and the way Spike resigns himself to it (at least until he can walk again) indicates that it's not an unfamiliar situation, and that that's probably the way things were in the early days.

I wouldn't say he couldn't have Dru, just that she wasn't solely his. Think he may have also slept with Darla judging by Angelus’ comment of "you never let us do that" when the immortal had Dru and Darla concurrently.

I never got the impression that Angelus was cruel and abusive to William.  The whole Drusilla thing was for two reasons--a pissing contest, with Angelus making sure that William knew he was the head rooster of the house, and to stop William with all of his "silly" notions of true love and so forth.  He wanted to teach William the artistry of the kill and what not, and becomes pissed when William stops the lesson to seek out Drusilla (if you watch, Angelus' good humored demeanor changes at that point.  Had William stayed, I think he would've stayed as well, as opposed to seeking out Dru, purposely wanting William to catch them in the act).

Also, Angelus may have goaded William many times before they found even ground (which occurs before 1894, judging by their relationship presented at that point and how they were a united front from one another, each demanding respect for the other in the face of those outside of their inner circle), but I never got the impression that Angelus forced William to do anything in that kind of manner.  He challenged him to be a better vampire in his liking, but abuse (at least beyond emotional, perhaps) makes no sense to me.

I regarded what SPike said about that one time with Angelus was when he was first turned and Angel was in no uncertain turns laying down who was the alpha male in the group. Not saying it wasn't unpleasnt between then, we don't know and that's the point. He also made light of the fact that his mom came onto him when she rose.

I never got the impression that Angelus was cruel and abusive to women.

That wasn't an issue in the thread... but seriously? You don't think what he did to Drusilla was cruel and abusive? He killed her family and drove her insane. That's abuse if I ever heard it. And Angel makes enough comments to indicate that it was a habit for him, and Drusilla was his best/worst (depending on your view) subject.

"Seey, I disagree. I think you're talking about a later genesis of Spike. I'm thinking of the newly turned William we saw in Lies My Parents Told Me and Destiny. He wasn't a "diabolical evil monster." He killed people, sure, that's what vampire do, but he loved his mother, he loved Drusilla, and he idolized Angelus. This is the guy who stuck his own hand in the sunlight because Angelus told him to. I really can't see him taking revenge on his idol - he didn't even try to fight for Drusilla (who he thought was his destiny) when he catches her with Angelus."

Again disagree, freshly turned William was evil, just because he loved his mother that doesn't make him good.  Nor does his childish notion of Dru being his true-love matter.  He enjoyed taking revenge and the destruction that he caused and was already making plans to lay waste to Europe before meeting Angelus.  Nor did he hero-worship,idiloze him.  He quickly threatens Angelus to try it again, it's only after Angelus treats it as a game of who has the bigger balls that Spike accepts the challange.  But that's being male, it doesn't mean that he wants to be Angelus or sees him as his idol, wtf?  he definitely did try to fight for Dru, what Angelus taught him was that nothing was his, he could take what he wanted but that's all.  And all vampires lived under those rules, i'm sure they switched partners many times.

"The Spike who had enough confidence to challenge and defeat a Slayer wouldn't let Angelus bully him. But it took some time to get to that point - and, interestingly enough, it was Angelus who toughened Spike up. Spike calls him his "Yoda" and says that Angelus was the one who made him a monster."

He always had enough confidence to fight for what he believes is his as a vampire, he just couldn't win in the way he wanted, which was a fair one on one fight against Angelus.  After 8 months(the year shown in fool for love was wrong, it was supposed to be 8 months after his turning), Spike the new persona was created and he loved sticking it to Angelus, who was pissed that he had no control over this young vamp.  Sorry, but i really do dislike it when fans victemize Spike, when it clearly wasn't canon.  Yes, he did learn alot from him, some lessons he accepted, like taking what you want, others he rejected, like killing should be an artform.  Either way, Spike is partly responsible for being one of the most dangerous vamps in history, seeking out slayers was his own agenda, one that Angelus disagreed with.  My point, Spike was a gruesome,disgusting,evil vampire who for a 100y had the time of his life doing whatever he wanted to do.  He was many things, but a rape-victem he was not, no matter how much slash-fans want him to be.

What? Not all slash fans have him as a rape victim. Some fics, yeah sure, and they're great. Then there's great slash fic where Spike never had a relationship with Angelus. And then there are other great fics where he had a willing relationship with Angelus. Slash people don't always have him as a victim, I take offence to that.

And yes he was evil to begin with, of course he was, he's a bloody vampire but it's quite clear that he did look up to Angelus and he did learn a lot from him. The flashbacks in TGIQ show pretty clearly that he had respect for Angelus.

I don't think Spike was completly evil right out of the grave. He wanted revenge, yes, but revenge isn't something evil. Everyone in the world wants revenge for some thing or other at least once in their life. He wasn't like Angelus, who killed his whole village for no clear reason.

Nika

I think he was pretty evil. He tells Dru "We'll ravage this city together, my pet. Lay waste to all of Europe."

So yeah pretty evil, he just wants his mummy to come with them.

Rats, wrote this with serious jet lag. I meant *William*

But as for Angelus, well, he thrived on the pain of his victims.  I don't think he was prejudice to males.  I'm pretty sure he was an equal opprotunity torturer--men, women...Just as long as they were in pain by his doeing.

(added) And William the Bloody, well, there's various types of evil doers and I think that is what makes the rift on whether or not he was inherently evil--how evil was he and what kind of evil he did.  He was a bad, evil, rude vampire in his own right.  But at the same time, he did have sensitivity and cared for others, and that's what blurs the lines for some, I think.

But that's being male, it doesn't mean that he wants to be Angelus or sees him as his idol, wtf?

"You were my sire, man. You were my... Yoda!" That sounds like Spike looked up to Angelus, and yeah, had a little hero-worship.

"Drusilla sired me, but you... you made me a monster." Either Spike deliberately tried to be a monster just like Angelus, or Angelus forced him to be that way. You don't seem to like Spike looking up to and modeling himself off Angelus, but you also don't like the idea that Angelus ever forced Spike to do anything. Personally, I don't see how else you can interpret you made me a monster.

I don't think he was prejudice to males.  I'm pretty sure he was an equal opprotunity torturer--men, women...Just as long as they were in pain by his doeing.

I agree... which makes it odd that Angelus would torment Dru until she was insane, but never tried to torture Spike in any way.

Oh, and sorry, Scarlet, that was me up there that responded to you. I just got my new computer and forgot I had to log in. *duh*

No problemo, E ;)

I think Spike warred with the fact that while he looked up to Angelus, he wanted to do him one better at the same time.  I don't think Angelus forced him to do anything, so much as *coerced* him into being more of a monster.  At the same time, Spike was impatient, and didn't want to take the time (nor did he have the desire, I think) to torture victims mentally and emotionally like Angelus.  But he did respect him for it (if his exclamation of how nuns was Angelus' thing, and how everyone knows and repsects that is any indication).

Two tiny points

Harmony has a minion she calls Peaches - and - sadly - Drusilla says "Cor" when the Judge is put together. 

sadly - Drusilla says "Cor" when the Judge is put together.

Why is that "sadly"? "Cor" is Cockney, right? So that would suit her accent (unless there's some usage nuance I'm missing). But Spike has a North London accent, not Cockney, which is why he shouldn't use it.

 "You were my sire, man. You were my... Yoda!" That sounds like Spike looked up to Angelus, and yeah, had a little hero-worship.

Sure a little, but it's meaning is alot more about how much Angelus taught him.  We saw all the way in the beginning that Spike always stood up to against Angelus, which annoyed him. In the carriage he offers Spike twice his left-overs, and twice Spike refuses.  If he was this gullible wimp,follower that you make him out to be then Spike would have become a 2 Penn, he was a carbon-copy of Angelus.  Penn admired him, wanted to be him. 

"Drusilla sired me, but you... you made me a monster." Either Spike deliberately tried to be a monster just like Angelus, or Angelus forced him to be that way. You don't seem to like Spike looking up to and modeling himself off Angelus, but you also don't like the idea that Angelus ever forced Spike to do anything. Personally, I don't see how else you can interpret you made me a monster.

I don't know, how about the logical way, he wasn't talking about being forced to do those disgusting things, he was talking about how Angelus mentored him to that monser.  Some part of that is true, an other part is Spike's unwillingness to accept his responsibilty, at the end of the day he still chose his own path.  And again if he truelly wanted to model himself after Angelus, then Spike would have been a second Penn.  The fact that he is considerd the second worst vampire in history says alot, he got title not by being a copycat, he was original and found his own path of evil, chaos and destruction, fighting warriors of light.  The contrast of Angelus's way.

I agree... which makes it odd that Angelus would torment Dru until she was insane, but never tried to torture Spike in any way.

Because he couldn't, that was one of Spike greatest strengths, he might not have been physicly stronger then him back then.  But the strength of his character was more then enough, it pissed Angelus off that he couldn't control this young vamp, who never followed his orders.  Also by his reckless actions forced them to hide and run.  He was even able to rile Angelus up to try and stake him and then simply stopping him and saying "Now you're getting it!" implying that he was also just trying to teach Angelus a lesson.  Spike can't be bullied, he will always find a way to come out on top.

 What? Not all slash fans have him as a rape victim. Some fics, yeah sure, and they're great. Then there's great slash fic where Spike never had a relationship with Angelus. And then there are other great fics where he had a willing relationship with Angelus. Slash people don't always have him as a victim, I take offence to that.

Well i take offence to seeing a character that isn't gay being constantly degraded by being something he never was in canon.  Just because so many people fantazise about those sort of stories, doesn't make them canon.   Spike being Angelus's little bitch is a 100% fanon, Spike being gay is fanon.  Heck, even that one time is only heavily implied as them having sex once, but they don't state it as fact on the show, commentary doesn't count so Joss pretty much left that open to interpetation.  And since that line was spoken without resentment,hatred then it's more then obivious that they were expermenting or trying it once or it could even be a hunderd different other things they could have tried.  Nobody knows what being intimate once means.  Even so that doesn' make either of them gay or bi, their preference is clearly female.

And yes he was evil to begin with, of course he was, he's a bloody vampire but it's quite clear that he did look up to Angelus and he did learn a lot from him. The flashbacks in TGIQ show pretty clearly that he had respect for Angelus.

He did learn alot from him but not being evil, he was already that and during,after his time with the scourge he developed his own brand of evil.  He did have respect for Angelus, but those flashbacks also show Angelus having respect for Spike, so by then it's mutual.  Angelus maybe more because he was better known back then.  But by the time of "School Hard", Angel shows clear fear and respect for Spike, warning them to take Spike seriously.

Maybe it's the inner slight Spangel shipper in me, but I do think they have some feelings for each other. Maybe not sexual, but I think there's a lot of history and complication in their twisted sort of relationship. And Xander isn't gay in canon either, but still people like to write about him with another male characters. Everyone likes what they like.

I guess one could say that yeah, I'm part Spangel shipper.  In fact, I'm probably more of a canon Spangel, while being a fanon Spuffy (because it seems to work out better for them in fan fic).  Anyway, Spangel shippers got their justification (and this is the sole reason for me being one in the first place) in AtS 5.  Yes, they had tons of history, but it was more than that.  They had a level of unshakable intimacy that surpasses sex.  However, the only way to construe Spike's trailed off sentence to Illyria that at least one time, they did have sex.  The question would be was it in their soulless past, or when Spike came back?  If the latter, I'd surmise it was sometime after Spike was released from the hospital, and Angel checked up on him (again).  Two people who allegedly hate/loathe each other so much wouldn't spend so much time and effort on trying to save one another if their wasn't some kind of feeling behind it. 

So, anyone know the score of who saved who more in that season?

Hmm, let's go all the way back to the beginning of this thread.

THANK YOU!

So glad to see more people concerned about what's canon and what isn't. Maybe next time someone asks a question like "What was the difference between childe and minion again?" on here, and some well-meaning person starts to explain, one of you can do the "Stop it, that's fanon!" thing. I have the feeling it will come over better without the admin-tag - people tend to think I'm trying to censure them when I say stuff like that. ;-)

Oh, and concerning the "is this pairing canon" discussion this seems to turn into: To me, fanon is not just stuff never mentioned in the show but wildly known and accepted among fans, but also our interpretations of what we saw. As long as it wasn't stated outright on the show, it's not real. Actions are open to interpretation, and the less confirmation we get for our interpretation of said actions, the less "right" we have to call it canon. Angel and Spike's relationship pre-show? You can guess, you can say "but look here, I'm sure this means ...", but you can't prove your point because the show never confirmed it either way.

Not sure it matters anyway, I never understood why many people have this urgent need to call their OTP canonical. I dabble in two other fandoms, and in both of them, my prefered pairings are decidedly NOT canon. In one of them it isn't even hinted at, hell, I don't think the characters had more than one or two scenes together. Believe me, it doesn't make me enjoy the fics any less.

Ugh, I think I may have lost the plot somewhere down the line. Nevermind.

Well i take offence to seeing a character that isn't gay being constantly degraded by being something he never was in canon. Just because so many people fantazise about those sort of stories, doesn't make them canon. Spike being Angelus's little bitch is a 100% fanon, Spike being gay is fanon.

But he's not contently degraded. No one is saying they are cannon anyway. Spike is not always Angel’s bitch, there's plenty where they are equals. No one is saying spike being gay isn't fanon either. Plenty of spangel shippers are happy to see them in just a friendship role.

Do you think there’s something wrong with making him gay, is that your problem? Because as I see it he's rarely made gay but bi. I don’t think you really know what spangel shippers like or understand their motivations and think your biggest problem here seems to be the gay factor. As far as I’m concerned the whole thing’s fiction so my advice to you is to get over it.

And if you do take offence then that's your problem. Maybe I take offence to all those spuffy stories that say Dru never loved Spike. Maybe I take offence to all the angel bashing stories. There's a whole load of issues spuffy shippers write about that I don't particular like but I don't pick on those people because of it. I think you should read what you enjoy and don't go off on someone else because they have differing views to you.

I never said Angel made him evil, just that he did learn from Angelus. Torture for example. Maybe it wasn't his cup of tea but he did learn from Angelus and respect him.

I'm the last poster and I just wanted to come back now I’ve calmed down and apologise for partly getting this thread so off topic.

I lost my temper and I apologise. I don't want to sit here defending my ship anymore, I don’t think I have to, it's doing just fine on it's own. I'm a proud spangel shipper and I'm also proud of the other het and slash pairings that I ship.

I just want to say that I think if you don't like a particular ship, if you know nothing about that ship, then you should stay away from it. What those shippers write is none of your business and should not be any of your concern. Stick with what you like and don’t stick your nose in where it doesn't belong.

I hope I didn't offend anyone when I said I was personally offended by the Angel bashing and the Dru comment. I think if that's your view then you have every right to write that way, I’m not about to tell you you’re wrong. That's your opinion, mine just happens to differ.

Again sorry, I really did loose my cool with the other person. I hope we can get this thread back onto topic and more friendly ground.

Well i take offence to seeing a character that isn't gay being constantly degraded by being something he never was in canon.

You take offense to it? You don't think taking offense to speculation on a fictional character's sexuality is a little extreme? And I'm a little bothered by your use of the word "degraded." Spike is degraded if he's gay? Why? Simply because it's not canon? People write non-canon things about Spike all the time... are those things also degrading? Or is it that you think it's degrading to be gay? 

I agree with the above guest, it sounds like you have a problem with Spike being gay (which I don't think anyone is saying... obviously his relationships with women are canon, so at most he is bisexual), and I think that's a conversation that has the potential to get truly offensive, and not just in relation to characters. 

I never understood why many people have this urgent need to call their OTP canonical. I dabble in two other fandoms, and in both of them, my prefered pairings are decidedly NOT canon.

Well... I get it and I don't. I get it in the sense that it's hard for me to get into a pairing that isn't at least suggested by canon. Otherwise, I find there are usually too many mental hurdles of "how/why are they together?" for me to enjoy the story. So, yeah, I usually do look for *some* canon justification in my pairings. (My one exception is Spike/Gwen. I don't care if they've never met - they'd be awesome together!) On the other hand, I don't think a pairing needs to be explicitly shown on the show in order for it to work. Spuffy as most of us write it isn't even canon - anything that remotely reaches fluffy or happy isn't canon, but we like to give them happy endings. Spangel may only have been hinted at in canon, but there's enough to work with to make it believable for me.

I get it in the sense that it's hard for me to get into a pairing that isn't at least suggested by canon.

But, you see, that's not quite what I meant. You say the pairing being canon-based is what starts you liking it, that makes complete sense, but the thing I was talking about when I said I don't understand is people who already ship a pairing feeling the need to make up shit just so they can claim it's canon. Stuff like: "Xander wore all those funky shirts, so clearly he must be secretly lusting after men; and when Spike made that yummy treat comment that proved they wanted each other." If some Spander shipper wants to use those things to base their fic on, fine, but bad taste in clothing and a snarky comment don't make X/S canon. That's the bit I don't get. They like the pairing, think the characters have great chemistry or whatever. Why can't they be happy with that? Why is it so important that they can claim "canonical" for their pairing?

Talking about off-topic, you guys were trying to get back to the canon/fanon thing, weren't you? Oh well, I couldn't resist.

/ Is pointedly ignoring the "degraded" thing for now and hoping that a "Sorry, I phrased that badly." post will show up. (Ignoring it because of the aforementioned reactions to the bit below my username.)

Oh I don't know why people do that, I don't try to make spangel canon. Doesn't bother me if it is or not, I would like it regardless. I think you have to take some things with a pinch of salt, especially some of the wordings used on the show.

I think getting back on topic would a good idea. I'm just not sure how to start doing that. I’ve been trying to think of another fanon fact that I thought was canon but I’m so far coming up blank.

Well, I had a link about fanon/canon a while back. Where was it? Oh, here. Maybe someone will see something interesting. (Now I wonder if there is any fanon/canon porn out there. The internet being what it is, there probably is. Scary thought. - Don't mind me, my head is a strange place.)

And I didn't mean to imply anyone here does the making up stuff thing. It's just something I noticed in another fandom recently, and it confuses the hell out of me. You like it, so you ship it; that's really all people should need.

 "Do you think there’s something wrong with making him gay, is that your problem? Because as I see it he's rarely made gay but bi. I don’t think you really know what spangel shippers like or understand their motivations and think your biggest problem here seems to be the gay factor. As far as I’m concerned the whole thing’s fiction so my advice to you is to get over it."

Nope, it's the victemizing that bothers me and yes it is degrading, to any character.  People have the need,fantasy to makes strong characters submissive, maybe because they got personel issues or love control.  Either way it does annoy me, just like you said other things annoy you.  And that's my right to do so.

And about the gay-part, i do dislike people changing characters to their own preference.  Yes, everybody has a right to, but that doesn't make it canon, just like so many people love to portray Liam as a good for nothing evil dude, when he pretty much just seemed like a teenager that has daddy-issues.  Liam wasn't evil and Spike isn't gay.

But i was never fixated on it, it is just like you said, ficton.  And fanon-fiction at that.  It's when poepl make it out to be canon that bothers me.  I couldn't care less which ships people follow, Spuffy,Spangel,Bangel,ect.

I just want to say that I think if you don't like a particular ship, if you know nothing about that ship, then you should stay away from it. What those shippers write is none of your business and should not be any of your concern. Stick with what you like and don’t stick your nose in where it doesn't belong.

Jeez, talk about overreacting, there's alot more people that think like me, and it's not about gay-tolerance, that's what you viewed in that opinion.  It was talking more about victemizing the character and that is degrading.  Maybe you should learn a little more tolerance and not got so defensive.

Well maybe you should think about your wording. I think you'll find the whole of s6 degrading. There's also spuffy fic that's victimizes the characters.

You know what I'm not gonna argue with you. I give in trying to explain that not all spangel fic is like that or why making Spike gay isn't actually a bad thing or meant to cause offence. I will agree though that Liam wasn't evil, I never thought he was.

And I didn't mean to imply anyone here does the making up stuff thing.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you did.

I wonder if there is any fanon/canon porn out there. The internet being what it is, there probably is. Scary thought. - Don't mind me, my head is a strange place.)

Actually I think I read something similar and one was a man and one was a woman. It was interesting and weird.

 I agree with the above guest, it sounds like you have a problem with Spike being gay (which I don't think anyone is saying... obviously his relationships with women are canon, so at most he is bisexual), and I think that's a conversation that has the potential to get truly offensive, and not just in relation to characters. 

No, it's the making Spike a victem that bothers me. The only relationships that are canon for Spike are F/M.  There isn't any showing,wording of Spike being in relationship with another male or even have casual sex with males.  Even bisexual is only implied and that was only that one time, if it was sex then one time does not make you bisexual.  There lots of people that experment in college, that doesn't them make bi.  The character's orientation was clearly straight.  Don't see what the big deal is, there is nothing wrong with making stories and fantazising about stuff.  You and your defensive friend seem to have misunderstood  that opinion, there is nothing wrong with being gay, but Spike isn't that.  And those stories are completely fanon.

But I’m not trying to tell you it's canon. I know Spike and Angel weren' gay.

*sigh*

This whole thing is ridiculous.

Oh my. Look, you explained that you were talking about the victimizing when you said "degrading", not the gay/bi-ness. How about leaving it at that (well, that and explaining your point of course). What you said before WAS worded badly, I was wondering whether you meant the gay thing was well. Perking up and asking what exactly you meant to say is not being defensive. You didn't even mean to say what they were so worried you were saying, so there is no reason to lash out.

Yes, I'm aware I'm basically telling you not to get so defensive as to call them defensive, kinda silly. Hope anyone gets what I was trying to say.

Yes I get you and I'm pretty sure way up there somewhere I apologised for being defensive along with somehow sparking this argument. I’m still a little confused about where the degrading bit came from but I really don’t think I want to know.

So can this all be over now. Please?

So can this all be over now. Please?

What an excellent idea!

And just a suggestion for our guests--sign your name (or something to distinguish you from the other 100 or so guests) at the bottom of your post.

Always_jbj

the thing I was talking about when I said I don't understand is people who already ship a pairing feeling the need to make up shit just so they can claim it's canon.

Ah, yeah, that is a different animal. I don't know why people need to do that, either.

Thanks for the website, Dia. I know I've seen it before, but it's always a helpful reference for people who aren't sure about something.

I read that fanon or canon website thats posted above, very interesting and it did spark a fanon or canon question :D Do vamps feel the cold? Do they need warm jackets and blankets for anything other than comfort?? Im pretty sure they don't, but then again my impressionable mind may be remembering fanon facts... lol

KT

Well, blankets, jackets etc only keep you warm by trapping your body's own warmth--vampires don't generate heat, so therefore they wouldn't be kept warm by these things; I'd say it is so they can blend in, and/or leftover human traits.

Pretty sure they can detect differences in temperature, not being able to do so would be kinda dangerous for highly flamable creatures like vamps, but I doubt it affects them the same way it does humans. Spike wearing his leather duster year-round in California wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise.

Not so sure on how cold temperatures would affect them, since the show was set in an area where it doesn't get all that cold, at least not for "people" born on the British Isles. Don't remember it ever being mentioned either, so no canon answer to that one. (Unless there was something on A:tS, I didn't watch that so I wouldn't know.)

I agree that they would definitely be able to feel temp differences... just don't think that wearing warm clothing would help keep them warm.

Agree with you on that, wouldn't make any sense if it did. Like you said, clothing only preserves our bodyheat, if we didn't have any, clothing wouldn't make any difference. Well, maybe leather if we're talking high humidity, at least it feels that way when I wear my coat - but then, maybe I'm remembering the sun's influence on black leather, couldn't really say for sure...

But vamps are at room temp. right? I thought that was mentioned on BTVS or ATS. So if they are at room temp then the clothing would keep them at the level of warmth. Now how they would function in a cold enviroment I have no idea. But if they are at room temp. then they would need to stay heated if the lived up North or on teh East cost, it gets cold here in the winter. And what about england? dosen't it get cold there too? Like really, really cold.

True, if we stick with our friend logic all the way, then we'll end up with the not very surprising conclusion that vamps, the way they are described in the BtVS verse (or any other way actually), can't exist. I guess it safe to assume that whenever the laws of nature collide with what the verse tells us, we can trust the verse-magic to take care of it.

Now the snow in Amends wasn't completely natural, but it think it probably still came with freezing-point temperatures. There was no mention of Angel turning stiff, or the Sunnydale vamp-population being radically reduced the next day, so they probably don't turn into popsicles when it gets too cold. And that's all canon tells us about the vampire/cold weather dynamic. Any further theories we can come up with, be they logic or magic-based, may fit in with fanon or not, but canon leaves us hanging here I'm afraid. - Unless someone remembers evidence from some other eppy?

I always thought of vampires as being similar to cold-blooded animals. Their body temperature changes with the temperature (since their bodies don't regulate that on their own, the way a living human's does), so they are basically whatever temperature the air is around them. Thus, no matter what temperature it was, they would always feel comfortable. Leather might artificially increase their body temperature (because of heat absorption), and presumably drinking hot blood would temporarily raise their temperature, but for the most part, I don't think clothes would have any effect, except to help them blend in.

The only canon references I can remember are in The Initiative, when Riley (or one of the other soldiers) remarks, "We've got one at room temperature," while using a heat-sensing device on Spike. The other is from Angel, when he says something along the lines of "I have no body temperature" as an explanation of why he wears all black in warm, sunny L.A. 

One other odd thing - when Spike is first chipped and wandering helplessly, he wraps a blanket around himself. That's possibly just to add to the "little match girl" pathetic image, or to protect from the sun, but he has it on at night, too. Is it possible that without blood, or when vampires are ill, they do get cold? I vaguely remember Spike once taking off his duster and giving it to Drusilla, though I can't remember where. If he did, it could have been a chivalry/comfort instinct left over from being human, but it could also be a clue about the cold/sick thing.

My two cents:

If you SAW it clearly on an episode...it's canon.  BUT often those crafty writers left things vague (or tossed a bone here and there to viewers).  That is when things get to be subject to interpretation and the fuel for "ship wars".  So I always say if it is explicit on screen it is canon.

With all those gray areas left and so many hints put out there we can run with it in fanfic and twist and wank to our hearts content, and we do.  What we should NOT do is to become self righteous about it 

I have my own view of why Spike is the way he is, my "psychoanalysis" of the character based on how I viewed canon and took the hints.  It is not the same as some others might see him.  That is fine.  The same with all these characters.  In fact I am delighted this is so because that way I can enjoy other views and can have an infinite playground for my own writing.

Cases can be made for many differing viewpoints and that is the making of a good story.  To take your own interpretation and present it in a way that comes across as plausible and in character will make most stories fly in the hands of a good writer.  Even then you will have some who will dismiss your story as out of character based on how THEY viewed them.  There are some rabid fans of Angel who just CANNOT see any good EVER in Spike...you can argue till the cows come home then argue with the cows for all the good it will do you.  Likewise you can never paint Angel too black for some Spike fans even though he is as complex as Spike IMHO.

We are dealing with FICTION here....fictional beings, fictional mythology, and our own fiction on top of their fiction.  Unless you read just transcripts of episodes or write verbatim transcripts you are going to be going off canon in some way. 

So that said....I guess it isn't just a matter of fanon or canon in some cases but in interpretation of what we saw and that is rarely the same from one person to the next.  They wrote it that y on purpose and that has given us lots to work with.  As for fanon that troubles you...we all have it....just don't read it.  It really isn't worth the energy to get in an uproar.  If you are writing and wish to stay as close to canon as possible...there are wonderful resources online and in book form to research your information.  Just keep in mind that that can be fluid also (depending on when written).  Example in "official" books written prior to FFL they go with what Giles read from the Watchers books about Spike, that he was a criminal before siring.  We then saw in FFL that was not the case.  So in checking your "facts" ways be aware of when it was published and if it differs from on screen...go with the on screen.

That's about all I can say.  As for Spangel, well I'm too much a Spuffy girl to get off on it but have nothing against any well written pairing where Spike is loved.  LOL.  The way I interpreted the hints given onscreen?  There was at least one physical encounter between them.  They had a love/hate relationship from the start that came across to ME as more a brother/brother dynamic and that is how I tend to write them.  I DO see how others can see it other ways and using the same hints and signals to build something else.  That is a perfect example of actual canon (the words where Spike says clearly there was one time of intimacy is canon), what exactly that meant and if it was con  non-con is up to interpretation.

Things like claims, etc. were never shown and are not canon but there is nothing wrong with developing our own mythology.  Joss and Co. changed, added and ignored their own on a regular basis.

Kathleen

Wow I got too wordy, sorry!

I chose to ignore the debate up above because I have enough drama in my own life without dealing with anybody else's :-P  For me, fandom is fun.  When the fun's gone, there's no point anymore.  But, since we're somewhat back on topic:

I vaguely remember Spike once taking off his duster and giving it to Drusilla, though I can't remember where.

I believe that was in "School Hard" when Spike introduces Drusilla and himself to the Annoying One.  She says she's cold or something to that effect.

Note: Yes, I realize that saying I choose to ignore something is, in effect, not ignoring it.  But that was my own two cents.  So there :-P

Example in "official" books written prior to FFL they go with what Giles read from the Watchers books about Spike, that he was a criminal before siring.  We then saw in FFL that was not the case.  So in checking your "facts" ways be aware of when it was published and if it differs from on screen...go with the on screen.

One fanwank I love to use when interpreting the discrepancies between the information in "expert" tomes and what the writers change it into later, is they're not as expert as they like to think they are. I figure the Watchers are generally making assumptions and writing about them.

William was not a criminal. Giles read in School Hard that Spike was not yet 200 years old. (No, he was somewhere around 118 in vamp years, and no more than 150 adding in his human age.) Angel was written about as a human in a 1776 watcher's diary and yet he was turned in 1753. (Halloween) I remember Anya commenting that the Watchers don't really care to know sociological facts about vampires. (The stuff beyond how to kill them.)

(Now that I think about it. I think Anya said that in Buffy vs Dracula. Boy, I really hope it's not fanon.)

~Varin

Hmm, interesting topic.  There are alot of things that are fanon.  Spike and Angel being Mastervampires.  Obviously they are stronger and more powerful then other vampires, but the term MasterVampire was only used i think with The Master.

On the guys/gals that have trouble with Spike being degraded that way(victemizing), i agree.  I have come across it several times during Spuffy fics, where it is revealed that Spike has some bullshit-history of being abused by Angelus.    I just stop reading and look for a new fic.  You aren't supposed to take it seriously and nobody was making it out to be canon anyway.  That's the great thing about fics, you can be picky and selective and only read what you agree with and want to read.

"And Xander isn't gay in canon either, but still people like to write about him with another male characters. "

That's a little different, Xander was almost made gay by Joss, it was between him and Willow, in the end it was Willow that was made gay.  And not to forget that Xander made some questionable remarks about Spike, like in season5 when he talks about Spike's "tight,compact muscled body" or something like that.  So i do think that there is more clear ground-works for that character in becoming gay.

I think you could find evidence of an abusive relationship between Spike and Angel(us), in Becoming Part II.  When Angel is confronting Buffy with his back to Spike, Spike gets out of his chair and hits him with the bar and says, "See how you like it."  That made me think Angel used to beat up Spike, for whatever reason.  I always looked at that as a little bit of pay back, as well as the means of helping Buffy.  

Or the line could be in reference to Spike getting paralyzed from an organ falling on his back.

As to the argument that Spike would have gotten revenge on Angel for abuse, 

isn't that kinda what he got with Buffy?  I mean, when he was with Buffy, it was all about her and his love for her, but I can't think that it wasn't in his mind at all.  He was for sure thinking a little bit about Angel in the basement in "Wrecked" because of the groupie comment.

My pet peeve with canon/fanon is when the writers went out of their ways to prove how devious and cunning Spike could be, and then he did the dumbest shit!  I'm not talking about when he does stuff that infuriates me that comes out of who he is, but when says or does stuff that is ooc.  Like how he can read people so well, but then, as a for instance, Buffy tells him she was thinking about Giles, and Spike says, "Ya know, I always wondered about you two."  Whatever. 

One last thing, and then I'm outta here.  This is what I wish the show could have had, and that is for the characters to get help.  Look at Spike for example.  How long was he tortured by the First?  How much time was he given to recover from that?  Then there is the can of worms known as Buffy.  I had a friend who had a near-death experience, and she saw a counselor for two months.  I know Life was the big bad of season 6, but couldn't Buffy have talked to somebody who had some grief training or something?  And that's why I love fanfic, because I have found capable writers who love the characters more than the so-called professionals.  Yes, I'm looking at you, Maudlin Noxious.

Um, I think the hitting Angelus with a bar thing was more of a "stab you in the back for a change" kinda deal, cause Angelus usurped his power and his woman (but really only cause Spike was in that wheelchair).

I think the "vampire groupie" comment was more of a response to "is that what this is about? Doing a slayer?"  And clearly vampires in general don't get her hot...she didn't go around doing all the hot ones that came her way on patrol.  I think Spike was pretty much egging her on, cause she was all about the leaving, until he offerd her another round.  She wasn't about the "basking in the afterglow--" she was going to leave him, until he brought up sex.

And the Giles comment?  Fairly certain he wasn't serious...god, I hope he wasn't.

That makes good sense, too, Scarlet. 

But the Giles comment, I can't tell if he was being serious or not, either. And Spike is my favorite character.  That's what I'm talking about, regardless of the nuance or complexity of a statement, I should be able to tell if the character means it or not.  Ergo, my ire.

Lindsay, I agree with you on the devious/dumb thing - Spike definitely does uncharacteristically dumb things (usually either for a cheap laugh or because Buffy needs to be able to easily foil his plan). But I definitely don't think the Giles comment was meant to be taken seriously. Come on, someone tells you they were thinking about their father figure while making out with you - that kind of comment just begs to be made. Spike knew what Buffy meant when she said she was thinking about Giles, and he knows what their relationship is like (and what it *isn't* like). He's trying to either make her laugh or gross her out - and trying to play off the fact that she just insulted him by saying she didn't kiss him because she liked him or anything.