Dreidel by Constance
Chapter: Chapter Two

10/06/2008 02:45 am
Great chapter - love how you strung out Buffy's figuring out that there's something wrong with Spike.  Also, very sweet that she bought him some ciggies

Lou
10/06/2006 04:31 pm
Pity Buffy chooses to blank out the valid points Anya is making - she really doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about Spike.

Robyn
09/20/2006 11:20 am
I can totally understand Buffy’s reluctance over rescuing Spike with what has transpired between them as well as her lack of back-up with her friends, even though I would think that she would want to destroy the organization that had taken her sister. I do like the conflict that you have shown her having with herself. If she was completely against the operation no force could make her do it. That she is letting Dawn and Anya push her into going shows, at least to me, that a part of her wants to do this. To me being able to have completely conflicting emotions about something and the imperfection that comes with it is part of what makes us human and with Buffy, and her natural tenancy for avoidance, her actions show just how human she is.

Angie
09/02/2006 04:15 am
OK, I think you have missed exactly what I was trying to say. Spike's personal views and motivations were not the focus of what I was trying to get across. I honestly do not claim to know exactly what all he was thinking or why he did what he did. The main problem I have with that is the Spike was constantly being pigeonholed into the role of an attempted rapist like he was portrayed in season 7 - I agree with what you said about that generalizing Spike like that, I was trying to point out the fact that Spike does not fit into that category. I was using the example of Buffy and Spike's twisted relationship for that reason as well as to help explain what I was trying to point out about Buffy (not Spike).

Focus on Buffy for this, on what she does and says, forget about Spike for a minute. From a psychological standpoint, Sexual assault is a DEEPLY traumatizing and violating experience given the very nature of the crime. Victims of rape never make "complete" recoveries because scars of it always remain to some degree. Sometimes, it takes YEARS before victims can recover enough so that their trauma is no longer blatently apparent. Some can "bounce back" and be seemly fine, but the scars left behind never go away completely. Let me make this clear, sexual assault is among the MOST horrendous and violating of crimes and even just the attempt has lasting psychological consequences. Even women who are victims of sexual assault while under anesthesia suffer the feelings of that deep violation from the mere knowledge that they were assaulted. The only times that trauma does not occur is if, for some reason, the potential victim doesn't realize what could have happened. Just confronting the realty that someone is about to or trying to rape them will cause a certain amount of trauma. From how Buffy acted with still trusting Spike enough to leave Dawn with him, at that point in time at the end of season 6, Buffy did not view what had happened as a rape attempt. The fact the Buffy still trusted Spike like that directly contradicts any idea that she believed that Spike tried to rape as she later stated in season 7. It can not go both ways, if Buffy herself believed that Spike tried to rape her regardless of any excuse or justification, she would have felt deeply violated and have lost any trust she would have had in him. Buffy NEVER would have let him have the chance to do the same to her little sister if she believed that Spike posed a danger to her. Regardless of any possible justifaction of Spike's actions, Buffy would not have trusted the guy who she believed tried to rape her with her baby sister. There are only two possible ways Buffy would have still trusted Spike like that. One, she didn't view what had happened as a rape attempt (despite what she LATER (note: "later") stated) or two, she did view what happened with Spike as a rape attempt and it somehow did not had not sunk in yet, meaning that somehow she had yet to realize it. The second one is pretty flimsy but I put it there so I didn't seem like I was immediately discounting a possibility.

When Spike can back, he knew what he almost did (for whatever possible reasons and/or justification that I won't go into) and you know how he was remorseful and trying to atone. Again, focus on Buffy, not Spike. Buffy's behavior regarding Spike during season 7 is radically different than from when she was willing to leave Dawn alone with Spike. The big thing to remember is that Buffy herself never told anyone what had happened with Spike while he was gone - Xander was the only other one who had any idea why Spike left, and that was because he found Buffy afterwards. Furthermore, XANDER was the one to first use the word "rape," not Buffy. Keep in mind, Buufy never mentioned the fact that the reason she and Dawn found out he was gone in the first place was that she was trying to get him the BABYSIT Dawn less than a day after Spike "tried to rape me" (keep that in mind for later).

Furthermore, during the months Spike was gone, Buffy never once saw fit to even warn everyone that Spike was potentially dangerous. She may not have explained to everyone what all occurred during their twisted affair out of shame, BUT, if she believed that Spike tried to rape her, as she LATER (note: "later") stated in season 7, then she would have at VERY LEAST warned her sister and friends about Spike being a threat - whether it from him being a someone who consciously tried to rape her or someone who was unstable enough to do something like that while not meaning to hurt her or not realizing what he was doing.

Now think back on Buffy's behavior again. Much of her behavior goes totally against that of a victim of sexual assault, regardless of whether or not it was just an attempt. Victims tend to be adverse to even being in the prescence of their attackers - it can be extremely difficult just getting them in the same courtroom as their attacker, let alone looking at them or acknowledging them. Now, when Spike first showed up, Buffy did INITIALLY exhibit that kind of adverse reaction, like when Spike grabbed her from behind. However, her behavior further along in the season goes COMPLETELY against that.

Psycologically speaking, Buffy should never had let the guy, who as she stated "tried to rape me," anywhere near her or her family and friends. Forget about any possible realtionship between those two, if BUFFY honestly believed that Spike had tried to rape her she never would have acted like she did toward Spike. Here's what I mean:

Buffy actively kept Spike around and even brought him into her own home and helped him when he needed help. The type of victim that Buffy was supposed to be BY HER OWN WORDS would NEVER had done that. She wouldn't even be willing to be alone with him - Buffy would have either staked him in an attempt to strike back at him or she would wanted Spike as far away from her as possible. Buffy never had invited him into her own home, regardless of whether or not he was chained up. And, Buffy tended to Spike herself when he was weak and injured - that implies a caring for him that she would not have had if she really viewed him as someone who tried to rape her.

The best example of how much Buffy trusted Spike was near the end of the season when she was sleeping with him - that act of lowering her guard around him enough to fall asleep with him shows a level of trust that simply would not exsist if Buffy actually believed that Spike tried to rape her and it could not have been rebuilt in the short amount of time that Spike and Buffy actually had together between his being captured and her taking care of all the potentials.

There are many other instances of this contradictory behavior that you can find out for yourself if you wish to - just look for some of the common behaviors of recoving victims of sexual assaults. Especially, look at how the react when confronted with their attackers. You'll find that Buffy's behavior does not match this, however it does point to a rather unsettling conclusion - one in which I have had to deal with before and let me say that those people were utterly appalling. Let me explain, Buffy never mentioned anything until AFTER Spike showed back up and AFTER Xander mentioned it. It was only then that Buffy maintained that Spike had tried to rape her despite the fact her behavior goes directly against how a sexual assault victim would act when confronting their attacker. Furthermore, now that Spike was around again, his guilt over what happened combined with everyone NOW knowing about why he left resulted in Spike keeping his distance and keeping his mouth shut - the very two things that Buffy wanted Spike to do after she ended the affair in season 6. That left Buffy free to once agian constantly dance around whatever it was that she felt for Spike. Things worked out quite well for her with that situation - Spike was feeling exceeding guilty and trying to atone so he was easily lead around and controlled and willing to do whatever Buffy wanted him to do. The next CLEAR contradiction between how Buffy should have as a victim of sexual assault and how she actually behaved was when BUFFY told Spike that she wanted him dark, for him to be more like the person who "tried to rape me." Having Spike becoming that instead of how he was then would be a horrifying reminder for a recovering victim, but Buffy not only had absolutely no problem with it, she REQUESTED it.

As I stated before sexual assault is one of the most horrific crimes there is and there is NO justification for it ever, but I am utterly appalled by those who would use the allegation of sexual assault for their own ends like Buffy did in season 7. it is people like this who make it that much more difficult to help the ACTUAL victims who suffer the trauma of sexual assault. I've done a great deal to try and help ACTUAL victims of this sort of assault, but I cannot stand it when people merely pose as victims to achieve their own selfish gains. THAT is the problem that I have with the "attempted" rape concept in season 7. I hope that I have been able to clarify what I wished to get across earlier, I admit that my strength is speaking not writing. I tend to talk when I write and not all the I say gets written down unless I check over it, which, I admit, I neglected to do last time and I apoligize for any misunderstanding.
1/ Our views on this subject, and the character of Buffy, are so very different I really don't think you're going to like the rest of this fic.
2/ 'Psycologically speaking, Buffy should never had let the guy, who as she stated "tried to rape me," anywhere near her or her family and friends.' 'that implies a caring for him that she would not have had if she really viewed him as someone who tried to rape her.' This is nonsense. Plenty of people go back to relationships with/stay married to the person who raped them. Pick your average domestic murder trial and odds are there will be complaints or even convictions of rape in the past and plenty of women who will refuse to press charges because 'he didn't mean to' or 'I deserved it' or 'he needs help'. Not that I'm suggesting Buffy is that kind of person, but I repeat, it's dangerous to generalize. Also, I suspect to Buffy's way of thinking he is not the same guy who tried to rape her, she manages to keep Angel and Angelus as separate people in her head and surely she holds souled Spike as no more responsible for the crimes of his unsouled days.
3/ 'Sexual assault is a DEEPLY traumatizing and violating experience' See above, re generalisation. Sexual assault is a physical act, and doubtless usually causes much trauma, but if the victim is not much bothered that doesn't stop it being sexual assault. There's no alledged about it, we saw the sexual assault on screen and the bruises it left. Whether or not he was really trying to rape her may be open to debate but the sexual assault is canon. One reason Buffy may be less affected is because she is physically stronger than Spike and wasn't helpless, maybe so many more trauatizing things have happened to her she's used to it. After all Spike isn't the first person to try and rape her, or violate her (love spells? magic sexy houses?) Maybe she's very traumatized and hides it well.
4/ 'Regardless of any possible justifaction of Spike's actions, Buffy would not have trusted the guy who she believed tried to rape her with her baby sister.' Well she did, so... Maybe she simply believed Dawn was more likely to be safe with Spike than any of the alternatives. Maybe she trusted him despite the rape attempt, he's not obsessed with Dawn after all and would if anything be more eager to help to make amends.
5/ 'The big thing to remember is that Buffy herself never told anyone what had happened with Spike while he was gone' You have no idea whether or not that's true. I'm assuming the audience aren't supposed to believe the characters go into little boxes between seasons, for all we know they sat down and had long chats about it. 'Buffy never once saw fit to even warn everyone that Spike was potentially dangerous.' Again we don't know that, and there was no particular reason to believe he was any more potentially dangerous that they already knew him to be. The Scoobies generally believed it was the chip that stopped him hurting people and he still has that. And he shows remorse, not murderous rage, when she throws him off, leaving town would reinforce that not make him more of a threat.
6/ The next CLEAR contradiction between how Buffy should have as a victim of sexual assault and how she actually behaved was when BUFFY told Spike that she wanted him dark, for him to be more like the person who "tried to rape me." She asks for the Spike that tried to kill her, not rape her, and I think we can all agree season 2 Spike and Season 6 Spike are quite different creatures, I assume she means the Spike that was determined and confident and not the one that was so obsessed with her he couldn't think straight. I didn't realise there was a way a victim of a sexual assault should behave, but if there was it might go to the wall in the face of an apocalypse, when there are more important things to worry about.
7/ 'Spike was constantly being pigeonholed into the role of an attempted rapist like he was portrayed in season 7' 'those who would use the allegation of sexual assault for their own ends like Buffy did in season 7. it is people like this who make it that much more difficult to help the ACTUAL victims who suffer the trauma of sexual assault.' I disagree with these statements so much I'm not quite sure where to start arguing with you. The alleged grates with me, obviously, and I can not see ANY way in which Buffy posed as the victim in season 7 or at any other time. I don't see how you can interpret helping Spike as selfish behaviour, if anything I think she feels responsible for him. You judge Buffy very harshly and I really don't believe the character would behave like that.
Constance

Angie
08/31/2006 02:44 pm
You know I REALLY hate that whole concept of the "attempted rape" (pretty sure that Xander, NOT BUFFY, was the one to use that word) issue thing with Buffy - For one, rapists do not stop after just being knocked back a couple feet, those bastards get off on that and then try that much harder. They don't run away horrified with themselves and then do all that crap Spike did to try and atone.
If Buffy really considered what Spike did to be attempted rape then why, less than 24 hours later, did she still trust Spike enough to look after Dawn, without even mentioning what happened or warning Dawn of any possible danger, but willing to leave Dawn with him alone in a place where if he did something nobody else could help her if needed (The chip stops pain and violence not tricking Dawn, binding her and doing anything when she can't fight back). Plus look at the last season, besides the one flashback, Buffy's behavior doesn't go along with that of a victim of such a traumatizing assault, in fact it goes against it a great deal since she actively kept him around, not as the soulful Spike he came back as but SHE TOLD him she wanted him "dark," more like the guy who "tried to rape her."
Think back during their little affair, all those other times that the two were fighting and Buffy saying "no" when she really meant "yes" - those two had a very unhealthy and dangerous relationship and that whole bathroom scene shows one of the reasons why, all it takes is ONE TIME for someone not to be playing and the other person not realise the change - if you do the research, you'll find this has happened in real life where one partner doesn't realize that the other is not merely "playing their part." Those types of relationships never turn out well.


There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Spike tried to rape Buffy. You can make all kinds of excuses for him and maybe some of them even stand up but he tried to force her to have sex with him and that is attempted rape whatever the mitigating circumstances. Early in Season Seven she says "You tried to rape me" and Spike doesn't try to contradict her, so her thoughts are canon.
I think it's as silly to generalize about 'rapists' as it is any other group of people, you can't define anyone by a single act. Being sorry for something afterwards doesn't mean it never happened, and personally I think that Spike going to such lengths to 'atone' shows even he realised he'd done something very bad. Whether or not Buffy was traumatised makes no difference to the technical description of his actions. I think her taking Dawn to him shows she trusts him to an extent, and probably shows she realises he wasn't being malicious, but I don't see how anything that happened before or afterwards changes the fact that he tried to rape her.
I would certainly agree they had a very unhealthy relationship and there were faults on both sides, and excuses for both sides. And I don't believe one moment of madness makes Spike a rapist. Maybe he didn't want to hurt her, maybe he really believed he could make her love him. But he did try to rape her. And if you pretend he didn't just because you want to see him as the good guy then you're taking something away from Joss Whedon's wonderfully complex characters.

Lou
08/31/2006 02:33 pm
This Buffy is rather dim, isn't she?

08/31/2006 03:23 am
Missed that Spike was also captured. How did he rescue Dawn, captured himself? Anyway Buffy still had some feelings for Spike, she was willing to let him take care of Dawn after. Still have some trouble with the whole rape thing, they're relationship had always been based on violence and I feel he just forgot momentarily that she really did't want his advances and when he did realise where it was going, his horror of it all, repulsed him. Can't wait to see how she will feel about him when she does find him. I think she probably did miss him, he was the only one she could confide in about everything and the only one that made her feel anything. I thinks she's just in denial about him. Looking to more updates, thanks for the read.

08/30/2006 07:58 pm
Oh god. Poor spike. I hope Buffy gets him out soon, and I hope when she sees the state that he's in, she doesn't add to his suffering.

Can't wait to read more.

Ana
08/30/2006 05:32 pm
argh! it's great so far, hurry and update soon, please! rescue spike!!

08/30/2006 04:36 pm
While I like the way Anya and Dawn are pushing Buffy to act, I don't like the way Buffy thinks of Spike - basing all of her motivations (or lack of them) on what he is, not who he is. I think you nail her way of thinking - she likes being in denial, it makes her life easier.

kim
08/30/2006 04:17 pm
Well...we've certainly got Bitchy Buffy today.

08/30/2006 02:55 pm
oh wow....i'm hooked...you've done it again, love, i *love* your stories!! please update really soon, i'm really loving this...i hope they rescue him soon and that buffy can get past the pain of what happened and help him through what he's been through....great job :)