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BSV Forum - General - The Bloodshedpub
Episode Suggestions
Thought I would go ahead and start a "suggested episode list" for our discussions - Please make a suggestion and I guess maybe we should eventually come up with 5 to 10 possible episodes then we can make a final selection -
Could we have set a deadline of the 26th January for the final selection - then we can begin our discussions with the last week of the month or first week of February.
Make your suggestion for episode and maybe some points that you feel and interesting and important for the members to look for.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I think it would be kind of interesting to work chronologically through the 'verse, mostly because we could examine the foundations of the characters and their motivations. It would also give us the opportunity to more clearly observe patterns and symbolism if we go from beginning to end. I'm not saying discussing every single episode (Vote no for "Beer Bad" right from the get go) but of the episodes we want to talk about, start at the earliest one and work from there.
From what I've read on the various threads where this idea has been discussed, it sounds like just about everyone wants to take the discussion to a different level than it has been done previously on the forum. It seems like good sense to make it organized from the beginning.
But maybe that makes it too documentarian? I could be way off base. Most of all, it should be fun, so if my suggestion sounds too 'spinster librarian,' just disregard.
From what I've read on the various threads where this idea has been discussed, it sounds like just about everyone wants to take the discussion to a different level than it has been done previously on the forum. It seems like good sense to make it organized from the beginning.
But maybe that makes it too documentarian? I could be way off base. Most of all, it should be fun, so if my suggestion sounds too 'spinster librarian,' just disregard.
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
If we're doing it in chronological order we should start in Season One. I agree that a lot of episodes rate some discussion, whether for character development or looking at the dynamic growing or for the metaphors purposely put in by the writers, but some I think will just rehash what everyone knows or what has been established already in fanfic stories in our Spuffy universe.
Season One was the beginning and a lot of episodes could probably be discussed, but the one I like the idea of discussing the most is "The Pack". Xander developing, his lie at the end about remembering and Giles helping, how Willow reacts, and the scene with Buffy and Xander that the show never mentioned in regards to "Seeing Red", and I think it's one of the very first episodes where a bad guy is human -the zookeeper.
Season One was the beginning and a lot of episodes could probably be discussed, but the one I like the idea of discussing the most is "The Pack". Xander developing, his lie at the end about remembering and Giles helping, how Willow reacts, and the scene with Buffy and Xander that the show never mentioned in regards to "Seeing Red", and I think it's one of the very first episodes where a bad guy is human -the zookeeper.
Jan 18 2008 12:51 am #4Scarlet Ibis
I agree that we don't have to go over each episode of Buffy. However, we should start in chronological order. I think we should focus on the important eps, or those with important meanings or instances (like "Ted" and "I Robot, You Jane," which themes resurface throughout the series) as opposed to ones that don't really carry much besides moving the story along (like "The Witch," I think it's called, with Amy and her crazy mom).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I like the chronological idea... mostly because I'm already doing it. :) Personally, I like "Prophecy Girl" - it's what I think of as the first "real" episode of Buffy. It's when they finally found their groove, set the tone for the rest of the series, and it's got more emotional depth than the entire first 11 episodes combined.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I, too, like the chronological idea. Maybe we should pick a certain number per season to stick to, like the top three or so. Just a thought. We can always start/add new threads as we go along.
~ Q
~ Q
~ Q
Jan 18 2008 02:29 am #7Immortal Beloved
Chronological sounds fine to me, as does picking a certain number of episodes from each season. However, I think three may not be enough. Since there are 22 episodes in each season, save for Season One, I think 5 or 6 might be a bit more realistic if you wanna cover important topics, themes, etc. If we start with Season One, fewer episodes are, obviously, integral to the series. I think that the first and the last episodes are the most important. "Welcome to the Hellmouth" has some good stuff about Buffy being the Slayer, her trying to run away from her duty, reluctantly accepting her fate, but not liking it a whole lot. "Prophecy Girl" has the same themes. So, that's my two cents. But, to be honest, it doesn't matter to me a whole lot how we go about things :-)
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Why don't we start with 6 episodes that we can agree are the most vital to the series and how it developed - Let's think about which were the most significant to the entire series - and maybe one episode for a character, maybe like for Xander's Zeppo, or a Birthday Episode. Main thing is to get a good plan so that we don't go over again much of the Buffy site discussions. If we can keep things focused we should end up with really good discussions and information that will help the writers - Better Writers and Better Stories - that is what we all want.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
If we pick six episodes out of the entire series, then - assuming we're going to want more than six discussions - we're going to end up skipping around when we choose the next set. That wouldn't be going in chronological order, which so far everyone seems to be on board with. Also, I sincerely doubt you're going to be able to choose only six episodes that everyone agrees are the most vital. That's not even one per season.
Rather than trying to come up with some grand plan for the entire series, why don't we just start with season 1? We've had some people throw out episode ideas - how about we settle on two or three, do them in chronological order, and then move on to season 2. Throw out episode suggestions again, whittle it down to maybe five or six for the longer seasons, and go from there?
So, for season 1, so far we've seen:
Welcome to the Hellmouth
The Pack
I Robot, You Jane
Prophecy Girl
Anyone who hasn't already spoken up want to express a preference for any of those, or add another suggestion?
Rather than trying to come up with some grand plan for the entire series, why don't we just start with season 1? We've had some people throw out episode ideas - how about we settle on two or three, do them in chronological order, and then move on to season 2. Throw out episode suggestions again, whittle it down to maybe five or six for the longer seasons, and go from there?
So, for season 1, so far we've seen:
Welcome to the Hellmouth
The Pack
I Robot, You Jane
Prophecy Girl
Anyone who hasn't already spoken up want to express a preference for any of those, or add another suggestion?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Sounds like a plan and a half, Eowyn. Let's run with it.
"Do you like my mask? Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!"--Giles, "Dead Man's Party'
Jan 18 2008 06:04 am #11Immortal Beloved
Rather than trying to come up with some grand plan for the entire series, why don't we just start with season 1? We've had some people throw out episode ideas - how about we settle on two or three, do them in chronological order, and then move on to season 2. Throw out episode suggestions again, whittle it down to maybe five or six for the longer seasons, and go from there?
Perfect. I'm not even sure Joss could whittle the series down to six episodes. I know I couldn't.
Perfect. I'm not even sure Joss could whittle the series down to six episodes. I know I couldn't.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Jan 18 2008 06:10 am #12Scarlet Ibis
So...when's this ball gonna start rolling, and where? Should we just start discussing "Welcome to the Hellmouth" on this thread?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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I'm not even sure Joss could whittle the series down to six episodes.
He couldn't. He tried to make a top ten list for the DVD set, and even excluding all the ones he wrote himself, he still ended up with eleven, lol.
As far as where to start, Scarlet, if we're going to do two episodes from season 1, I'd go with IB's suggestion and do "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "Prophecy Girl." I think the plan was to give people a couple days to watch the episode once we decided on one, before we start the discussion. I'd suggest starting a new thread for each episode... that way, if some people want to continue discussing an episode while others have moved on to the next one, we won't be having two conversations at once on the same thread.
He couldn't. He tried to make a top ten list for the DVD set, and even excluding all the ones he wrote himself, he still ended up with eleven, lol.
As far as where to start, Scarlet, if we're going to do two episodes from season 1, I'd go with IB's suggestion and do "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "Prophecy Girl." I think the plan was to give people a couple days to watch the episode once we decided on one, before we start the discussion. I'd suggest starting a new thread for each episode... that way, if some people want to continue discussing an episode while others have moved on to the next one, we won't be having two conversations at once on the same thread.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 18 2008 06:35 am #14Immortal Beloved
I'd suggest starting a new thread for each episode... that way, if some people want to continue discussing an episode while others have moved on to the next one, we won't be having two conversations at once on the same thread. Create a new post
We can keep this thread for the discussions on what to do next. And, obviously, I vote for WTTH and Prophecy Girl. :-)
We can keep this thread for the discussions on what to do next. And, obviously, I vote for WTTH and Prophecy Girl. :-)
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Are we going to watch all the episodes? That would be lovely. I think I should go hunting for season one, it's the only DVD I don't have.
Jan 18 2008 12:52 pm #16SpikesKatMac
I agree with those episodes; I think Angel might be a good one to include as well; not because I'm an Angel fan *ducks from flying tomatoes* but because Angel formed so many of Buffy's opinions about love, the soul, etc etc. I think if we're talking about later significance within the show, "Angel" has a far-reaching influence....
A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain - Matthew Arnold
I would also vote for The Harvest, it completes Welcome to the Hellmouth, I don't think we can see Welcome to the Hellmouth without The Harvest.
How about Nightmares? Buffy's fear of being burried alive and how it foreshadowns season six. As well as her fear of turning to a vampire. It also has a human abusing a child, and the first peak to Xander's abusive homelife, about one of the parents beating him for screwing up.
How about Nightmares? Buffy's fear of being burried alive and how it foreshadowns season six. As well as her fear of turning to a vampire. It also has a human abusing a child, and the first peak to Xander's abusive homelife, about one of the parents beating him for screwing up.
sorry for my lousy writing and lack of clarity - What I meant to suggest was 6 episode for each season, and to watch them in chronological order. My main interest is just getting started -
here are suggestions:
1. Welcome to the Hellmouth
2. The Pack
3. I Robot, You Jane
4. Prophecy Girl
5. The Harvest
6. Angel
7. Nightmares
Unless someone would like to add other titles, shall we choose from these and start next week? I suggest that we give 3 days for people to view - I am sure most of us have all the DVD's and if not, they are all available for rent -
I think that Angel and Nightmares are important to have on our final list -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I think we should start watching Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest, they're the beginning of the whole thing. Our views would start building on both of them.
I think we've had some good ideas but are now stalling. "Welcome to the Hellmouth" seems to be on several people's lists and it was the very first episode. I agree that "the Harvest" is more like the second part of WTTH instead of another episode. I say people just post if they agree and watch the very first two episodes by the 21st and we can put up a new thread. Moving on, we can decide after everyone feels they had their say and the next episode will be chosen. I'd like to see what everyone means to say in the 'discussion' because it can go so many ways and help decide what the next episode will be.
I say we watch "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "the Harvest" by the 21st or 22nd and a new thread will be added. Anyone need more time? The discussion will probably last over a week in any case.
I say we watch "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "the Harvest" by the 21st or 22nd and a new thread will be added. Anyone need more time? The discussion will probably last over a week in any case.
Jan 20 2008 12:55 am #21Spikez_tart
Good list NM - when will be first discussion day?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
A new thread has already been started called "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and "The Harvest", it's already in use, too, and the discussion seems to be already starting, despite time allowed for others to watch the episodes.
So, what episode should we watch next and when will the debate start?
Well, here's the suggested list again:
1. The Pack
2. I Robot, You Jane
3. Angel
4. Nightmares
5. Prophecy Girl
Personally, I don't think we need to watch all of those - if we discuss more than 50% of every season, we'll never get through this. I'd say either Angel or Nightmares, and then Prophecy Girl.
1. The Pack
2. I Robot, You Jane
3. Angel
4. Nightmares
5. Prophecy Girl
Personally, I don't think we need to watch all of those - if we discuss more than 50% of every season, we'll never get through this. I'd say either Angel or Nightmares, and then Prophecy Girl.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I think the next episodes should be Angel and Nightmares - Angel is the next big move for the Buffy-Angel relationship and Nightmares is a Whedon Script. With his interest in dreamscape imagery I think we should take a close look at this one -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
The Pack has always been a critical episode for Spike/Buffy fans. Maybe we'll get some insight into the Buffy/Xander scene in we rewatch it?
I definitely believe we should see "The Pack" and "Nightmares". Oddly enough it may seem, I don't know if "Prophecy Girl" is vital. It felt to me like it was pretty clear-cut and straight-forward. It also felt like when Buffy died and came back, and said she felt different, and the Master could no longer thrall her, the writers were planning something to have changed her. Instead they let it drop at that it meant a new Slayer could be called. They didn't have anything really happen mystically to Buffy the Slayer, just Buffy the girl dealing with the trauma in "When She Was Bad" and then leave it alone.
Jan 26 2008 09:01 pm #28Scarlet Ibis
I vote for "The Pack," cause it deals with possession of a demon, and having the memories of all the things that were done while possesed, which is pivotal...Xander recalls everything iota of feeling he had and all things he did while being possessed by the Hyena, and I'm leaning more towards "Angel" than "Nightmares," because I feel the insight into Angel is more important. In "Nightmares," we already know their fears, so there's no real point in rehashing them.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
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The Pack has always been a critical episode for Spike/Buffy fans.
I'll be honest, that's exactly the mentality that makes me want to avoid this episode. I really am not interested in Xander-bashing, so if we're discussing it just to point out Xander's hypocrisy in calling Spike a rapist, I'd rather skip it. It's already been pointed out numerous times, both in fics and discussions, so unless someone has something new to add, I don't see how it's useful.
I'll be honest, that's exactly the mentality that makes me want to avoid this episode. I really am not interested in Xander-bashing, so if we're discussing it just to point out Xander's hypocrisy in calling Spike a rapist, I'd rather skip it. It's already been pointed out numerous times, both in fics and discussions, so unless someone has something new to add, I don't see how it's useful.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 26 2008 10:10 pm #30Scarlet Ibis
I don't mean in regards to Buffy and Spike and attempted rape or whatever, but more in to tie in Angel. Xander had a demon forced inside of him that made him stronger, made him do things, and made him hurt those he cares about. It touches on the aspect of demon control, and that's why I'm voting for it.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Are we only picking one? I'd rather stick with "Prophecy Girl" if possible because it leads into s2 and is significant as far as character development for Buffy in particular. While I don't like "I Robot, You Jane," it does have some interesting points which could lead to good discussion. The same goes for "Angel."
While I'd like to discuss "The Pack" for the reasons Scarlet pointed out its more likely the discussion would devolve into the whole Xander-bashing/attempted rape discussion which I'd rather avoid. It's another one of those character continuity things I think was more an oversight than a true character issue.
I need like a sign or something that points to my inevitable "it's the writers' fault" argument, eh? :)
~ Q
While I'd like to discuss "The Pack" for the reasons Scarlet pointed out its more likely the discussion would devolve into the whole Xander-bashing/attempted rape discussion which I'd rather avoid. It's another one of those character continuity things I think was more an oversight than a true character issue.
I need like a sign or something that points to my inevitable "it's the writers' fault" argument, eh? :)
~ Q
~ Q
I think we should pick two, at most three from the list of five. I definitely think "Prophecy Girl" should be one of them, because to me, that's when the entire tone of the series changed, where they found their stride.
With respect to "Angel" and "Nightmares," I think they both have some good things to discuss, but both have themes that come up again in later episodes, so we could always discuss them then. (Actually, I think it might be interesting at some point to have a "manifested fear" discussion encompassing "Nightmares," "Fear Itself," and "Restless," but that doesn't really fit the framework of this series.) I think we could do one or the other, but both would be unnecessary. I don't really have a preference for one over the other.
So far, it looks like three votes for "The Pack," two votes for "Angel" (plus two maybes), two for "Nightmares" (plus one maybe), two for "Prophecy Girl," and much apathy for "I Robot You Jane" - I think we can pretty much cross that one off the list.
With respect to "Angel" and "Nightmares," I think they both have some good things to discuss, but both have themes that come up again in later episodes, so we could always discuss them then. (Actually, I think it might be interesting at some point to have a "manifested fear" discussion encompassing "Nightmares," "Fear Itself," and "Restless," but that doesn't really fit the framework of this series.) I think we could do one or the other, but both would be unnecessary. I don't really have a preference for one over the other.
So far, it looks like three votes for "The Pack," two votes for "Angel" (plus two maybes), two for "Nightmares" (plus one maybe), two for "Prophecy Girl," and much apathy for "I Robot You Jane" - I think we can pretty much cross that one off the list.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Actually, I think it might be interesting at some point to have a "manifested fear" discussion encompassing "Nightmares," "Fear Itself," and "Restless," but that doesn't really fit the framework of this series.
Good idea. Manifested fear as a theme would make for a good discussion at some later point because it does pop up throughout the series. "Normal Again" could even be added to that list as a possibility. We'll have to keep it in mind for later.
At worst, for the discussion thread we could lump "The Pack and "Angel" together because they share themes. If we save "Nightmares" for the later fear discussion that leaves "Prophecy Girl" with its own thread giving us a total of three threads dedicated to s1, which isn't bad.
~ Q
Good idea. Manifested fear as a theme would make for a good discussion at some later point because it does pop up throughout the series. "Normal Again" could even be added to that list as a possibility. We'll have to keep it in mind for later.
At worst, for the discussion thread we could lump "The Pack and "Angel" together because they share themes. If we save "Nightmares" for the later fear discussion that leaves "Prophecy Girl" with its own thread giving us a total of three threads dedicated to s1, which isn't bad.
~ Q
~ Q
Jan 27 2008 01:28 am #34Scarlet Ibis
Alright, let's go with that. The lumping of "The Pack" and "Angel," saving "Nightmares" for the nightmare eps discussion, and "Prophecy Girl" gets a thread of its own. I'm going to go with the assumption that since those of us discussing these have already got there season one dvds out, that the majority have already gotten, or at the least half through revisting season one already, so I'm going to mosey on along and create "The Pack' and "Angel" thread, and leave "Prophecy Girl" for someone else.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I vote for doing a Manifested Fear after we finish our discussions of season 1 - all those episode I think are extremely interesting an relevant to all the seasons -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 28 2008 12:51 am #36Immortal Beloved
Oooo, manifested fear. That sounds like a great one for later. I wasn't involved in this past week's discussion (busy-ness), but I'll join in now :-) Not too sure I have any good thoughts on The Pack (that don't involve rape) or Angel, but I may take a look at Prophesy Girl.
Give me Spuffy, or give me death.
Immortal Beloved, why don't you watch the episodes? You may find something interesting to point out. I'm just the same as you, haven't watched season one for years. I'm planning to watch The Pack today, and Angel tomorrow.
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