BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions
"The Pack" and "Angel"Jan 27 2008 01:30 am #1Scarlet Ibis
Alright, new thread open for these two episodes. The official discussion begins Monday, but if anyone has any comments now, feel free to post them.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Just watched The Pack. Poor Buffy, the outsider. Good thing she's got Xander and Willow by her side. Xander showing off he's a brave strong man was cute. No doubt about it, the kid is damn brave. I loved when the minute the possession wore off, he jumped ahead to rescue Willow. Now that's the real Xander.
What shocked me was Willow's "We weren't always close." Seeing as Willow and Xander weren't always close, does that mean that Jesse was Xander's best friend?
I could swear Buffy looked like she was turned on at some point during the scene with Xander. Bad guys turn her on. Links to Spike's "She needs a monster in her man."
Can we really put the blame on Xander for everything that happened while he was possessed? Especially when he killed no one. Other than Willow and Lance, none of his friends was hurt by his actions. Even Buffy didn't seem shocked or upset at what he tried to do with her. Maybe because she knew it wasn't Xander.
Lying about it was a bit cowardy, though. He didn't want tention between him and his friends, especially when it wasn't his fault he was possessed. Giles knew, and covered up for Xander. I think it was a wise move. They'll gain nothing but bad tention.
cowardly maybe, but certainly what most people would do in this circumstance - amongst close friendships it is normal to ignore, or rather simply choose to forgive and accept that we all make mistakes and that we all have are very bad sides and very good sides -
Off to watch now - We forget sometimes how handsome Xander was in the earlier seasons - One thing that is very noticeable is how much Angel's physical appearance changed - more than any of the characters, DB really underwent a significant "he looks older." It was actually very good that he was given his own show, his character was placed in a world that gave him opportunities to develop the character, plus his older look never became an issue -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Seeing as Willow and Xander weren't always close, does that mean that Jesse was Xander's best friend?
It's possible. I think Willow and Xander were probably childhood friends (and maybe Jesse was there, too), but that doesn't mean they stayed close friends the whole time as they grew up. There's that phase kids go through where girls and boys really aren't friends with each other... but then Willow developed the crush on Xander, and Xander needed Willow's help on homework, so maybe those things sort of bridged the gap during the "not always close" years. I think Buffy coming to town really strengthened Xander and Willow's friendship - it gave them new motivation to spend time together, and was something that no one else could understand, so they shared it only with each other.
Can we really put the blame on Xander for everything that happened while he was possessed?
I would say no. It's not like rational-Xander was making conscious decisions. No one blames Jenny Calendar when she gets possessed - she's treated like the victim, even though she tried to kill them all. And I don't think that hyena-Xander was simply acting out Xander's baser urges - I don't think he really believes the things he said to Willow, and while he might be attracted to Buffy, he obviously respects her (for a counterpoint to this episode, look at the way he doesn't take advantage of her when she's the one under the influence in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" ).
The only thing I think we can hold Xander accountable for is lying about remembering - and even then, as others have pointed out, it's really a matter of self-preservation and protecting their friendship from unnecessary conflict. What good would it do for Xander to confess, "Yes, I remember trying to rape you"? He'd obviously apologize, even though it wasn't really his doing, and Buffy would accept it, and then, whether they want to or not, they'd both probably feel awkward about the whole thing. This way, they can pretend it never happened, which is what they both obviously want to do. Remember - Xander asks flat out if he did anything else, giving Buffy the opportunity to speak up if she was bothered by the attack. She lets him off the hook by saying nothing happened. Really, the best thing for their friendship is to forget it and move on, which is what they do.
It's possible. I think Willow and Xander were probably childhood friends (and maybe Jesse was there, too), but that doesn't mean they stayed close friends the whole time as they grew up. There's that phase kids go through where girls and boys really aren't friends with each other... but then Willow developed the crush on Xander, and Xander needed Willow's help on homework, so maybe those things sort of bridged the gap during the "not always close" years. I think Buffy coming to town really strengthened Xander and Willow's friendship - it gave them new motivation to spend time together, and was something that no one else could understand, so they shared it only with each other.
Can we really put the blame on Xander for everything that happened while he was possessed?
I would say no. It's not like rational-Xander was making conscious decisions. No one blames Jenny Calendar when she gets possessed - she's treated like the victim, even though she tried to kill them all. And I don't think that hyena-Xander was simply acting out Xander's baser urges - I don't think he really believes the things he said to Willow, and while he might be attracted to Buffy, he obviously respects her (for a counterpoint to this episode, look at the way he doesn't take advantage of her when she's the one under the influence in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" ).
The only thing I think we can hold Xander accountable for is lying about remembering - and even then, as others have pointed out, it's really a matter of self-preservation and protecting their friendship from unnecessary conflict. What good would it do for Xander to confess, "Yes, I remember trying to rape you"? He'd obviously apologize, even though it wasn't really his doing, and Buffy would accept it, and then, whether they want to or not, they'd both probably feel awkward about the whole thing. This way, they can pretend it never happened, which is what they both obviously want to do. Remember - Xander asks flat out if he did anything else, giving Buffy the opportunity to speak up if she was bothered by the attack. She lets him off the hook by saying nothing happened. Really, the best thing for their friendship is to forget it and move on, which is what they do.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Great insights everyone! I was sure watching The Pack was a good idea. I really loved that bit you said about Xander and Willow's friendship, Eowyn. I agree that they grew closer after Buffy's arrival.
Giles' idea about men, do you agree with it?
This is really an excellent episode as a study of the the evil that men do and the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and it helps to establish the inner demons struggle as part of The Buffyverse World. This episode felt like, which many of the episodes do, like the story of Xander and the pack is a tributary to the eventual Buffy-Angel-Angelus arc. Xander, like Angel, was in conflict with his normal governed by societies rules (see Spike's no longer follow social rules) and his Mr. Hyde, Angel's vamp demon. I thought it was very interesting to have that wonderful connecting scene between the killing&death of Principal Flute simultaneously showing Xander's sexual assault on Buffy. Great symbolism for the eventual sexual consummation that brings on the Angel-Buffy-Angelus cycle and the Gypsy Curse.
What great story telling to have Buffy giving herself in Love and Passion to Angel while the ironic and tragic mirror twist of the curse will attack Angel and bring out Angelus. This is a perfect re-connect with the Hyena predator symbolism of Xander's possession and sexual desires. With The Pack, we see a physical manifestation of the hidden inner demons that are made flesh in Innocence. Another wonderful symbol comes in the line about Hyenas not being allowed on the salvation from the flood on Noah's Arc.
One thing that The Pack also showed was how acts that would normally require consequences from the deeds are given the "get out of jail free card" in the series. I don't recall if the bully pack that have killed the principal are ever mentioned again - can anyone give me info on that? Was The Pack also a perparation for the Angel-Angelus disconnect and separation for vamp Angelus and en-souled Angel?
It's too bad that even this early in the series, all the confusion over "the soul" has set in.
Sorry for my very bad writing - I do the best I can - I know that my posts are oftentimes hard to follow.
Anyone else think this was the worst season for costumes used on Buffy?
What great story telling to have Buffy giving herself in Love and Passion to Angel while the ironic and tragic mirror twist of the curse will attack Angel and bring out Angelus. This is a perfect re-connect with the Hyena predator symbolism of Xander's possession and sexual desires. With The Pack, we see a physical manifestation of the hidden inner demons that are made flesh in Innocence. Another wonderful symbol comes in the line about Hyenas not being allowed on the salvation from the flood on Noah's Arc.
One thing that The Pack also showed was how acts that would normally require consequences from the deeds are given the "get out of jail free card" in the series. I don't recall if the bully pack that have killed the principal are ever mentioned again - can anyone give me info on that? Was The Pack also a perparation for the Angel-Angelus disconnect and separation for vamp Angelus and en-souled Angel?
It's too bad that even this early in the series, all the confusion over "the soul" has set in.
Sorry for my very bad writing - I do the best I can - I know that my posts are oftentimes hard to follow.
Anyone else think this was the worst season for costumes used on Buffy?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Someone compared Xander being possessed to Jenny Calendar being possessed, but I don't think those cases are similar. For one thing, Jenny's body was being used by a separate entity with its own thoughts, plans, history, and consciousness. The hyena spirit wasn't in control of innocent Xander's body but affected Xander as he is himself, which is why it was more similar to someone being turned into a vampire. I think Xander bringing up how he felt seeing Buffy with Angel and ignoring him when he tried to get physical with her reminded me of Jesse immediately finding Cordelia after being turned and dancing with her. I don't think a deeper part of Xander was contemptuous of Willow, just that he had an idea of changing himself, which meant picking on others and she was a target he knew how to get to, and the fact that he kept glancing back at the pack for approval or praise probably had something to do with it.
I'm still surprised Giles took so long to admit it was something mystical.
Did anyone think they saw a hierarchy in the pack? It seemed to me like Xander was almost the leader, while the others followed him, like for food at school.
I'm still surprised Giles took so long to admit it was something mystical.
Did anyone think they saw a hierarchy in the pack? It seemed to me like Xander was almost the leader, while the others followed him, like for food at school.
Jan 29 2008 12:55 am #9Scarlet Ibis
I personally would have liked to have seen Xander at home, interacting with his parents 
Anyway, it seems to me...he had a bit more control than the other hyena people. If that demon had had a bit more patience, he could've seduced Willow into opening the door. I have a feeling that he probably would've killed her for being weak, though. The hyena demon is clearly a savage one. Though it's clear Xander wasn't robbed of his memories while possessed, I would say from the lack of guilt that he wasn't in the driver's seat--just aware of what he was doing.
I agree that Xander was the unnamed leader of the group. The others are also aware of Buffy's physical superiority, but it's Xander who actually seeks her out (and not just the whole attacking her scene). Like he had dibs, even though she wasn't officially his. I imagine that if Xander had had a hand in Principle Flutie's murder, then the contrast between him post hyena possesion and Angel would be that much closer.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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This demon spirit clearly tapped into the strong desires of its host - there is a very selfish and cruel side of Xander with his desires for Buffy - But we also have the Xander that without hesitation attacks the Zoo Keeper. Perhaps one of the reasons that Xander has such a hatred of Spike is how much of himself and his own Buffy cravings he sees in Spike -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
There was a lot of talk about Spike in Season Two representing the id, the instincts and desires in people that are not tempered by knowledge of right or wrong or social customs. "The id wants," as Maggie Walsh said. In the hyena possession I think the animal spirit frees Xander's wants with no longer thinking about a human version of right and wrong or why he can't try to take what he wants. I understand people who like Xander and those who dislike him horribly, but at this point in time, Season One, I don't think Xander is cruel or sadistic. Cruelty in vampires I think comes more from the human wanting to get back at ever feeling weak and human and liking the power being a demon gives them, and the demon is just a new set of wants and instincts and completely uninhibited- a very freeing feeling I bet. Everyone is a bit selfish, because we're supposed to think of ourselves as part of self-preservation.
I don't think the hyena possession is proof that Xander has a vicious or cruel side to him usually, just that a violent spirit was acting on the desires or wants that Xander naturally had, and most humans do.
I don't think the hyena possession is proof that Xander has a vicious or cruel side to him usually, just that a violent spirit was acting on the desires or wants that Xander naturally had, and most humans do.
Anyone else think this was the worst season for costumes used on Buffy?
Nah. Season four, hands down. Willow's clothes alone are terrifying.
For one thing, Jenny's body was being used by a separate entity with its own thoughts, plans, history, and consciousness. The hyena spirit wasn't in control of innocent Xander's body but affected Xander as he is himself, which is why it was more similar to someone being turned into a vampire.
The difference, though, is that we've seen vampires struggle and make choices that go against the will of the demon - Spike most notably, but also Darla while pregnant and Harmony (in Angel s5). Angel is a more murky area, since his soul is probably more prominent an influence than Jenny's or Xander's was while possessed. In any case, the difference is that Jenny and Xander both seem incapable of thinking for themselves or going against the will of the possessing demon/spirit.
Anyway, it seems to me...he had a bit more control than the other hyena people.
Do you mean self-control, as in restraint and not acting like a complete animal, or control as in rational-Xander having some influence on hyena-Xander's actions? I'd agree with the first one, though I don't really know a reason for it. Why is it that hyena-Xander is able to mimic normal human behavior to the point that he can almost fool people into thinking he's okay, and the others are like mindless animals?
Nah. Season four, hands down. Willow's clothes alone are terrifying.
For one thing, Jenny's body was being used by a separate entity with its own thoughts, plans, history, and consciousness. The hyena spirit wasn't in control of innocent Xander's body but affected Xander as he is himself, which is why it was more similar to someone being turned into a vampire.
The difference, though, is that we've seen vampires struggle and make choices that go against the will of the demon - Spike most notably, but also Darla while pregnant and Harmony (in Angel s5). Angel is a more murky area, since his soul is probably more prominent an influence than Jenny's or Xander's was while possessed. In any case, the difference is that Jenny and Xander both seem incapable of thinking for themselves or going against the will of the possessing demon/spirit.
Anyway, it seems to me...he had a bit more control than the other hyena people.
Do you mean self-control, as in restraint and not acting like a complete animal, or control as in rational-Xander having some influence on hyena-Xander's actions? I'd agree with the first one, though I don't really know a reason for it. Why is it that hyena-Xander is able to mimic normal human behavior to the point that he can almost fool people into thinking he's okay, and the others are like mindless animals?
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 29 2008 03:58 am #13Spikez_tart
Angel and Xander both look really cute. Just for the record. Buffy's outfits were horrible, but she did change into that purple sparkly shirt so she'd look good when she shot Angel with her crossbow.
THE PACK
Can we hold it against him? I don't think so. I really loathe this episode. I think it's out and out male bashing and Xander's activities are supposed to be the pattern we are to expect from 16 year old boys (and all males).
GILES: Testosterone is a great equalizer. It turns all men into morons. He will, however, get over it.
The only males in the show who aren't toxic are Giles, who colludes with Xander at the end to keep his secret, and Mr. Flutie who is a weakling and gets destroyed by the Pack and Xander's buddies who lose their food to the pack.. Also interesting is the appearance of a woman with a baby. There are very few children in the show. I don't remember any other babies. This mother and baby gets attacked by the males. Ew.
If that wasn't bad enough, there's the verbal downplaying of Xander's attempt at raping Buffy:
BUFFY: He tried his hand at felony sexual assault.
I suppose it's technically the same thing, but Buffy cheerfully drags him into the cage and tosses off her little quip and runs along to do whatever.
ANGEL
Buffy gets a big dose of "vampires can feel love" from Darla and Angel. Apparently, she believes it. I guess future events with Angel and being ground down by Giles will make her change her mind.
Darla: To love someone who used to love you.
Buffy: (looks at Angel) You guys were involved?
I got the distinct feeling that Angel was trying to commit suicide by Slayer (sort of like suicide by cop - getting involved in a shoot out with the police so that they will shoot you.) Any takers on that theory?
THE PACK
Can we hold it against him? I don't think so. I really loathe this episode. I think it's out and out male bashing and Xander's activities are supposed to be the pattern we are to expect from 16 year old boys (and all males).
GILES: Testosterone is a great equalizer. It turns all men into morons. He will, however, get over it.
The only males in the show who aren't toxic are Giles, who colludes with Xander at the end to keep his secret, and Mr. Flutie who is a weakling and gets destroyed by the Pack and Xander's buddies who lose their food to the pack.. Also interesting is the appearance of a woman with a baby. There are very few children in the show. I don't remember any other babies. This mother and baby gets attacked by the males. Ew.
If that wasn't bad enough, there's the verbal downplaying of Xander's attempt at raping Buffy:
BUFFY: He tried his hand at felony sexual assault.
I suppose it's technically the same thing, but Buffy cheerfully drags him into the cage and tosses off her little quip and runs along to do whatever.
ANGEL
Buffy gets a big dose of "vampires can feel love" from Darla and Angel. Apparently, she believes it. I guess future events with Angel and being ground down by Giles will make her change her mind.
Darla: To love someone who used to love you.
Buffy: (looks at Angel) You guys were involved?
I got the distinct feeling that Angel was trying to commit suicide by Slayer (sort of like suicide by cop - getting involved in a shoot out with the police so that they will shoot you.) Any takers on that theory?
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 29 2008 04:37 am #14Scarlet Ibis
Eowyn--yeah, I meant he had more control, and was able to fool people more easily that nothing was wrong. If I recall correctly, he's the last one to be possessed, right? Perhaps that had something to do with it--maybe the hyena, who doled out the power, knew one had to lead, and be able to somewhat fit in the society? But it's clear to me that Xander was above the rest.
As for Angel trying to commit suicide by Slayer...I'm on the fence. I think Angel was really torn between Darla, who he did in fact have feelings for--his maker, and Buffy, who he's beginning to have feelings for, but epitomizes the side of good, which he should be fighting for (now). He's torn between loyalty--to family, or to what's right? He wasn't strong enough to make that choice--not until Darla was about to kill Buffy. If Darla hadn't been there, he would've been dust (that is, if Buffy would've went through with it. I think she would've).
As for Angel trying to commit suicide by Slayer...I'm on the fence. I think Angel was really torn between Darla, who he did in fact have feelings for--his maker, and Buffy, who he's beginning to have feelings for, but epitomizes the side of good, which he should be fighting for (now). He's torn between loyalty--to family, or to what's right? He wasn't strong enough to make that choice--not until Darla was about to kill Buffy. If Darla hadn't been there, he would've been dust (that is, if Buffy would've went through with it. I think she would've).
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Angel:
I been thinking about Angel and the Buffy-Angel-Love arc - Trying to be more opened minded about it - I know that the metaphor is a powerful one and that Angel ends up acting like The Mythic Guide gone crazy in love. We also have the metaphor of total unconditional love and the idea of Total Commitment to The Loved One is considered by some mythic scholars, Joseph Campbell talks about this Highest Form of Love between human and then it's higher form in the total commitment to the spirit ideas beyond even human love. Aside from applying these abstract ideals of LOVE and how the metaphor applies to Buffy and Angel and her rites of passage - what I really find that disturbed me was how often Buffy comes across as vulnerable. It is that vulnerability that I realize is what I find disturbing. I am sure that there is a lot of projection onto the character from own high school experiences, but Angel seems to be Talking the Talk but Not Doing the Action. I watched "Angel" again and more of the season; while he talks about not putting them in temptations way, he seems to show up in places where they are alone together. I was also struck with how the writers have Giles seem unconcerned about any potential relationship that his slayer might fall into with this experienced older male.
Were any of you still in high school or just starting university when Buffy was first televised? I am wondering how young students interpreted their relationship. There seems to be such a huge contrast with the Buffy-Angel relationship and concerns with how young viewers or woman would interpret that story and the Buffy-Spike relationship.
One possible interpretation of this "no big deal attitude" could be that the writers felt Buffy was such a symbol of strength and the woman that can protect herself against men that this is how the viewers were expected to understand that scene. Or again, it could be that they simply were going for some type of snarky black humor.
I been thinking about Angel and the Buffy-Angel-Love arc - Trying to be more opened minded about it - I know that the metaphor is a powerful one and that Angel ends up acting like The Mythic Guide gone crazy in love. We also have the metaphor of total unconditional love and the idea of Total Commitment to The Loved One is considered by some mythic scholars, Joseph Campbell talks about this Highest Form of Love between human and then it's higher form in the total commitment to the spirit ideas beyond even human love. Aside from applying these abstract ideals of LOVE and how the metaphor applies to Buffy and Angel and her rites of passage - what I really find that disturbed me was how often Buffy comes across as vulnerable. It is that vulnerability that I realize is what I find disturbing. I am sure that there is a lot of projection onto the character from own high school experiences, but Angel seems to be Talking the Talk but Not Doing the Action. I watched "Angel" again and more of the season; while he talks about not putting them in temptations way, he seems to show up in places where they are alone together. I was also struck with how the writers have Giles seem unconcerned about any potential relationship that his slayer might fall into with this experienced older male.
Were any of you still in high school or just starting university when Buffy was first televised? I am wondering how young students interpreted their relationship. There seems to be such a huge contrast with the Buffy-Angel relationship and concerns with how young viewers or woman would interpret that story and the Buffy-Spike relationship.
One possible interpretation of this "no big deal attitude" could be that the writers felt Buffy was such a symbol of strength and the woman that can protect herself against men that this is how the viewers were expected to understand that scene. Or again, it could be that they simply were going for some type of snarky black humor.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 29 2008 05:21 am #16Guest
Guest
I was around fifteen when I started watching but I never liked the Buffy/Angel relationship, never really got into it. Then when Spike came along, even when he was with Drusilla I kept thinking, that's the one for her. It just seemed to me with Buffy and Angel that neither was on equal footing in the relationship, and that they didn't really know each other. My friend use to watch it with me though, and she was all for the Bangel relationship, and I didn't like a relationship in that show until Oz came along for Willow.
I aslo agree with Scarlet about Angel being torn between Darla and Buffy, caught between his past lover and his future would-be love, and his own torment. I think part of him would have let Buffy pull that trigger on the crossbow and would have felt relief at the dusting. And in season one Buffy would have pulled it, her feelings for him weren't that strong in season one.
I aslo agree with Scarlet about Angel being torn between Darla and Buffy, caught between his past lover and his future would-be love, and his own torment. I think part of him would have let Buffy pull that trigger on the crossbow and would have felt relief at the dusting. And in season one Buffy would have pulled it, her feelings for him weren't that strong in season one.
Not only does Buffy not attempt to kill him she offers up her neck - just like Darla who has offered her neck before. Buffy 's challenge is take this life away if you have the will to power where Darla as his sire was take this life in death - both women have offered their strength and he succumbs to their will.
I also tend to think that Angel was looking to ease his life and endless conflict with death by slayer - the fact is that had he really wanted to end his life, he had simply to walk into the sunshine.
Darla: To love someone who used to love you. How these words will come back to haunt Buffy, not just with Angel but for years to come.
I also tend to think that Angel was looking to ease his life and endless conflict with death by slayer - the fact is that had he really wanted to end his life, he had simply to walk into the sunshine.
Darla: To love someone who used to love you. How these words will come back to haunt Buffy, not just with Angel but for years to come.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 30 2008 02:30 am #18Spikez_tart
As for Angel trying to commit suicide by Slayer...I'm on the fence. - I am too, but it struck me when I was watching yesterday - what is he doing at the Bronze? Why isn't he making any attempt to defend himself until he has a chance to explain? Also, I note that it appeared that Angel had bags of human blood in the refrigerator? I don't think the butcher would put it in those nice fancy plastic bags with the tubes (well maybe in Sunnydale). Maybe he freaked over his reaction to wanting Joyce's blood - after all those years of resisting, he can't control his vamp face the minute he smells blood. Ultimately he does regain control, but it must be heartbreaking and depressing.
Buffy is vulnerable - she's very vulnerable, which makes me wonder - we know from forward sight (Normal Again) that Buffy has been in a mental hospital not very long before she gets to Sunnydale. There are several comments, mostly by Cordelia, that Buffy might not be cranked too tight "What's your childhood trauma?" "Can she be any weirder?" "Well, she's crazed." " Uh, because she's a psycho loony!" Also, there's Joyce with her tapes and all the experts say she has to do this or that. Joyce has been a mom for sixteen years, she hasn't figured out yet how to deal with Buffy? Yes, I know teenagers, but there's a sort of air to Joyce's attitude that she's floundering and maybe it's because Buffy's been hallucinating about vampires, etc. and Joyce is afraid to be firm with her. Which okay, I'm getting ahead of myself - but I think Buffy is not too steady on her feet after her trip to the mental ward.
Buffy is vulnerable - she's very vulnerable, which makes me wonder - we know from forward sight (Normal Again) that Buffy has been in a mental hospital not very long before she gets to Sunnydale. There are several comments, mostly by Cordelia, that Buffy might not be cranked too tight "What's your childhood trauma?" "Can she be any weirder?" "Well, she's crazed." " Uh, because she's a psycho loony!" Also, there's Joyce with her tapes and all the experts say she has to do this or that. Joyce has been a mom for sixteen years, she hasn't figured out yet how to deal with Buffy? Yes, I know teenagers, but there's a sort of air to Joyce's attitude that she's floundering and maybe it's because Buffy's been hallucinating about vampires, etc. and Joyce is afraid to be firm with her. Which okay, I'm getting ahead of myself - but I think Buffy is not too steady on her feet after her trip to the mental ward.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 30 2008 02:36 am #19Scarlet Ibis
See, this is why I have issues with "Normal Again." I felt like they were just throwing this info in last minute so that they could explain away her behavior. There's no indication to me that Buffy's vulnerable in season one--the only thing I saw was that her and her mom clearly have issues, but really, what teen girl doesn't with her mom? That's the age where you just don't relate--mom doesn't understand and doesn't get it, and never will. She's from a planet that's not earth, and is there to make your life miserable. And when you do want her around, she's suddenly too busy. That's usually how it goes.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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when I speak of Buffy being vulnerable in the early seasons I am only referring to her attraction to Angel - watching the first season has been a good refresher - after having seen all the series my perceptions have either been made stronger or I have better understanding of the flaws and actions of the major character during late seasons.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I never thought Buffy being in a mental institution made sense. If her parents had been so concerned about Buffy's "delusions" about being the Slayer that they had her institutionalized, why did it never come up before "Normal Again"? In "Killed By Death," Buffy says, right in front of Joyce, "I have to kill the vampires!" It's played off as just feverish nonsense, but wouldn't Joyce have shown more concern if it was something she'd heard before? Something that troubled her enough the first time she heard it that she questioned her daughter's sanity? And when Buffy does come clean about being the Slayer, Joyce is all "what the hell?" when she should have been "don't start with that again," if Buffy had previously tried to explain it to her parents, and they didn't believe her.
It's a shame, because it's a really cool framework for the episode, and sets up the spooky "what's really real?" ending. It's just sad they had to throw continuity out the window to do it.
It's a shame, because it's a really cool framework for the episode, and sets up the spooky "what's really real?" ending. It's just sad they had to throw continuity out the window to do it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 30 2008 07:20 am #22Guest
Guest
Oh, definitely, it doesn't make sense.
For one, you have to get a doctor's acceptance to commit someone. Everyone thinks teenagers just say stuff, so when Buffy first started it, they'd take her to a shrink, who when questioning her - if he got her to talk - would find that she's a perfectly normal teenager. If Buffy didn't want to go, she only had to use her Slayer powers. The strength alone would prove that she's not telling fibs or crazy. A little girl can't fake the strength of ten men! But I've known teens that have messed with their doctors making up stuff just so they don't have to talk about anything real, because they don't *want* to be there, and any doc familiar with treating teens knows it. It's so highly unlikely that Buffy could get committed just for saying there are vampires and demons out in the world...........she has to be seen as having a physical disease, or be a danger to herself or others. The whole thing just showed they had no clue at all about *actual* psychiatric medicine.
CM
For one, you have to get a doctor's acceptance to commit someone. Everyone thinks teenagers just say stuff, so when Buffy first started it, they'd take her to a shrink, who when questioning her - if he got her to talk - would find that she's a perfectly normal teenager. If Buffy didn't want to go, she only had to use her Slayer powers. The strength alone would prove that she's not telling fibs or crazy. A little girl can't fake the strength of ten men! But I've known teens that have messed with their doctors making up stuff just so they don't have to talk about anything real, because they don't *want* to be there, and any doc familiar with treating teens knows it. It's so highly unlikely that Buffy could get committed just for saying there are vampires and demons out in the world...........she has to be seen as having a physical disease, or be a danger to herself or others. The whole thing just showed they had no clue at all about *actual* psychiatric medicine.
CM
One has to wonder why Joss Whedon or the writers ever came up with the Joyce Does Not Know idea. Don't know what alternatives might have worked particularly with how involved the CoW was with their potentials. Once Buffy was identified in LA it would be logical for them to make very strong connections with the parents. I suppose that fears of parents denying the slayers acceptance of their destiny and duty would be a major concern. It is conceivable that parents would simply say "to hell with the CoW and their mission, my child will have nothing to do with any of this." Joyce never having noticed Buffy injuries, etc. is asking a bit much from their viewers. Have to admit however, that the scenes with Spike, Buffy and Joyce and the - your mom does not know - were effective.
If all these conflicts in continuity and logic are obvious to the viewers, why would all the excellent professional writers just ignore them?
If all these conflicts in continuity and logic are obvious to the viewers, why would all the excellent professional writers just ignore them?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 30 2008 09:38 am #24Guest
Guest
It happens in a lot of good shows. Buffy isn't the only show I ever watched that I could point out continuity errors.
It was a retcon. It has no basis in the earlier seasons, just something they came up with in Normal Again. If we gotta discuss it, we gotta fanwank. Our show is full of retcons.
Jan 30 2008 11:31 am #26Guest
Guest
That's a good point, Nmcil, since the Council normally takes in the girl when she's little and still a Potential. I imagine if they can't arrange something easy with the parents, that they might just take her anyway. Buffy escaped their notice until she was called, but I do find it odd that she was left with her parents and also not moved to a Hellmouth right away. Hell, Hank and Joyce probably would have been relieved to get Buffy out of their hair for a while if the Council had come to them in the guise of offering Buffy a "special education". What better way to get a teen under control and trained fast than to get her into your controlled environment away from anything she knows?
And Joyce was so oblivious, it seemed like the woman had to be on something not to be more persistent about what might be going on with her daughter. My mother worked long hours, but there was still little I got past her without her noticing when I was a teen. (And I know some parents *do* do this, but I hated all the guilt trip language Joyce used on Buffy about their new life - that it was all Buffy's fault that Joyce had to do new things. She was a minor - Joyce failed in her marriage, Joyce got a new job, and Joyce moved them to a new city. She could have just transferred Buffy to a different school district. They didn't have to leave their house unless Hank insisted on splitting the value of it.)
CM
And Joyce was so oblivious, it seemed like the woman had to be on something not to be more persistent about what might be going on with her daughter. My mother worked long hours, but there was still little I got past her without her noticing when I was a teen. (And I know some parents *do* do this, but I hated all the guilt trip language Joyce used on Buffy about their new life - that it was all Buffy's fault that Joyce had to do new things. She was a minor - Joyce failed in her marriage, Joyce got a new job, and Joyce moved them to a new city. She could have just transferred Buffy to a different school district. They didn't have to leave their house unless Hank insisted on splitting the value of it.)
CM
Jan 30 2008 07:53 pm #27Scarlet Ibis
Caro--there's always the possibility that Joyce was one of those people who couldn't live with the gossip...On the other hand, the fact that she moved them right to the Hellmouth tells me that perhaps the situation of moving wasn't fully in her control--whether she knew it or not. I find it strange that of all the places to move to, it would be the one place Buffy was most needed, and the one place she didn't want to be (at first). Kind of hard to avoid your destiny when you're literally over the mouth of Hell.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Jan 30 2008 09:31 pm #28Guest
Guest
Oh, yes, if you take the mystical/destiny into account, then I know Buffy would have landed on the Hellmouth no matter what. It's just that from a real life perspective, it didn't make as much sense. Especially to me who's lived in SoCal all her life. 
CM
CM
One option that could be worked was a simple CoW using a spell on Joyce to have her not notice the work her daughter became involved with - if there concern was secrecy this would have worked - still not satisfactory as any injury that involved hospitalization would have to involve the parent - We could have had Zombie Joyce spells.
Off to get some painting done and watch Hole in the World -
Off to get some painting done and watch Hole in the World -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 02:59 am #30Spikez_tart
Council normally takes in the girl when she's little and still a Potential. - I'm not so sure about this. The Council had a whole thing with Kendra, but they apparently didn't do anything to connect with Faith and there's nothing like that mentioned with any of the potentials in S7. Plot hole opens wide.
I really didn't like the way Joss came up with the whole Buffy is crazy thing in Normal Again, which is why I was looking closely for foreshadowing and sure enough here are these speeches by Cordelia (who always tells the uncomfortable truth.) It was still a stupid plot device except where Buffy tries to kill everybody except Spike. It especially didn't make sense to me - JW spends years setting up this whole magical other world, then trashes it in a single episode with this cheap Buffy is looney trick.
On Joyce's relationship with Buffy, I think they do pretty well most of the time, especially considering that Buffy committed a felony by burning down her high school, comes in at all hours and hangs around with somewhat creepy guys (Angel and later Spike).
I really didn't like the way Joss came up with the whole Buffy is crazy thing in Normal Again, which is why I was looking closely for foreshadowing and sure enough here are these speeches by Cordelia (who always tells the uncomfortable truth.) It was still a stupid plot device except where Buffy tries to kill everybody except Spike. It especially didn't make sense to me - JW spends years setting up this whole magical other world, then trashes it in a single episode with this cheap Buffy is looney trick.
On Joyce's relationship with Buffy, I think they do pretty well most of the time, especially considering that Buffy committed a felony by burning down her high school, comes in at all hours and hangs around with somewhat creepy guys (Angel and later Spike).
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
She could have just transferred Buffy to a different school district. They didn't have to leave their house unless Hank insisted on splitting the value of it.
Maybe she tried, Caro. I don't know if California works the same as my state, but if Buffy got kicked out of her school district of residence, especially for burning down a gym, she'd be hard-pressed to find another district that would take her. Here, at least, a school district has the right to turn you down if you're not a resident. With a record like Buffy's, I can't see many schools willing to accept her - and, in fact, doesn't Principal Flutie say something to that effect? And on top of that, even if they did find another district within commuting distance of their house in L.A., Joyce would have to pay tuition if she didn't live in the new school district (which, as a newly single mother, she might not have been able to afford). Her only option other than moving would be to enroll Buffy in an alternative education program (where the "bad kids" go - she wouldn't have wanted that for Buffy, I don't think), or a private school, where you'd again have the tuition issue.
More than likely, I think Joyce probably tried to get her into a lot of other schools, and Sunnydale was the only place that would accept her that was in an area where she could afford to buy a house.
Maybe she tried, Caro. I don't know if California works the same as my state, but if Buffy got kicked out of her school district of residence, especially for burning down a gym, she'd be hard-pressed to find another district that would take her. Here, at least, a school district has the right to turn you down if you're not a resident. With a record like Buffy's, I can't see many schools willing to accept her - and, in fact, doesn't Principal Flutie say something to that effect? And on top of that, even if they did find another district within commuting distance of their house in L.A., Joyce would have to pay tuition if she didn't live in the new school district (which, as a newly single mother, she might not have been able to afford). Her only option other than moving would be to enroll Buffy in an alternative education program (where the "bad kids" go - she wouldn't have wanted that for Buffy, I don't think), or a private school, where you'd again have the tuition issue.
More than likely, I think Joyce probably tried to get her into a lot of other schools, and Sunnydale was the only place that would accept her that was in an area where she could afford to buy a house.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
I'm not so sure about this. The Council had a whole thing with Kendra, but they apparently didn't do anything to connect with Faith and there's nothing like that mentioned with any of the potentials in S7.
Giles does say something to the effect of "Buffy slipped through the cracks" that implies that they DO try to find potentials as soon as they can, and train them in the event that they are called, even if they're not always successful. Also, in "Bring on the Night," when Giles is telling Buffy about how the Bringers are taking out the Slayers, he adds, "As well as their Watchers," which indicates that at least some of the potentials being killed had already been assigned Watchers.
Several of the potentials that were introduced in season 7 had Watchers - it was indicated that Kennedy had been trained for a while, at least. She mentions that the Bringers killed her Watcher, so we know she had one. Also, Eve had a Watcher - Willow says that Bringers killed him before he could tell anyone he'd sent her to Sunnydale, which is why they were too late getting to her. Vi had a Watcher - he once showed her a picture of a vampire. Rona and Amanda definitely didn't have Watchers, but I'm not sure about the other girls.
Giles does say something to the effect of "Buffy slipped through the cracks" that implies that they DO try to find potentials as soon as they can, and train them in the event that they are called, even if they're not always successful. Also, in "Bring on the Night," when Giles is telling Buffy about how the Bringers are taking out the Slayers, he adds, "As well as their Watchers," which indicates that at least some of the potentials being killed had already been assigned Watchers.
Several of the potentials that were introduced in season 7 had Watchers - it was indicated that Kennedy had been trained for a while, at least. She mentions that the Bringers killed her Watcher, so we know she had one. Also, Eve had a Watcher - Willow says that Bringers killed him before he could tell anyone he'd sent her to Sunnydale, which is why they were too late getting to her. Vi had a Watcher - he once showed her a picture of a vampire. Rona and Amanda definitely didn't have Watchers, but I'm not sure about the other girls.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 04:31 am #33Spikez_tart
Boy that's some fancy stepping to explain away Buffy. I didn't remember that. It would explain how they were able to round up the Potentials so quickly. They wouldn't have to stop and explain. Hard to believe that Kennedy's watcher didn't kill her himself.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Jan 31 2008 04:37 am #34Scarlet Ibis
Just wanted to note on the whole Buffy in a mental hospital thing--in "Bad Eggs," Joyce asks her "I wonder what you think about besides clothes and boys," or something, and Buffy's response is "saving the world from vampires?" Joyce then says, "I swear, sometimes I don't know what goes on in your head." A pretty atypical conversation to have if you just institutionalized your daughter a little over a year and a half ago. And for Buffy to bring it up in such a manner is even more absurd if she did spend some time in a hospital. Hey, maybe in "Normal Again," making her think she was crazy before was all apart of the nerd trios plan, to make the mental instituion thing more believable. How about it?
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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The thing about Buffy slipping through the cracks might have been in the movie. In fact, I'm almost positive it's in the movie, but I'm pretty sure Giles says something along those lines as well... possibly when Kendra shows up.
Hard to believe that Kennedy's watcher didn't kill her himself.
*snort*
And thanks, Scarlet - I knew there was another scene like that, where Buffy mentions vampires with no reaction from Joyce, but I couldn't remember where it was. I think that whole "make her think she was crazy before" idea makes the nerd trio seem a little too clever, lol. Maybe it's something that was changed due to the implanted memories of Dawn? When she was an only child, Buffy managed to keep the slaying a secret, but with a little sister under foot, Dawn ratted her out (probably read her diary), and her parents thought she was crazy and stuck her in the mental hospital.
Hard to believe that Kennedy's watcher didn't kill her himself.
*snort*
And thanks, Scarlet - I knew there was another scene like that, where Buffy mentions vampires with no reaction from Joyce, but I couldn't remember where it was. I think that whole "make her think she was crazy before" idea makes the nerd trio seem a little too clever, lol. Maybe it's something that was changed due to the implanted memories of Dawn? When she was an only child, Buffy managed to keep the slaying a secret, but with a little sister under foot, Dawn ratted her out (probably read her diary), and her parents thought she was crazy and stuck her in the mental hospital.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Jan 31 2008 05:31 am #36Scarlet Ibis
No problem, E That's plausible too--her memories altered to work Dawn in. I also just recalled that in "Killed By Death," that would've been the perfect time to mention to her friends how all hospitals were all around bad--seeing her cousin die, and trying to prove she's sane were the memories that made hospitals wiggy for her, or something like that.
And yeah--in the movie, she did somehow slip through the cracks. Merrick talks about how she's behind on her formal training, and queries about her "big, hairy mole" that signals her being in the line of Slayers.
That's plausible too--her memories altered to work Dawn in. I also just recalled that in "Killed By Death," that would've been the perfect time to mention to her friends how all hospitals were all around bad--seeing her cousin die, and trying to prove she's sane were the memories that made hospitals wiggy for her, or something like that.And yeah--in the movie, she did somehow slip through the cracks. Merrick talks about how she's behind on her formal training, and queries about her "big, hairy mole" that signals her being in the line of Slayers.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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I don't have a whole lot to add to the episode discussion. I wish I had something profound, but I don't. "The Pack" was a nice break out episode for Xander (more so than "Teacher's Pet" I thought), and created some huge continuity issues for later on in the series that were never addressed. As an episode, it's good. Ignoring foreknowledge, it had a great beginning middle and end. The extras were great, it had a good balance between humor/horror and they definitely got the message across that bullies bad, friends good. As far as season one goes its definitely one of the top episodes. "Angel" wasn't as good in my opinion. Pushing all of my usual writing complaints aside, and foreknowledge of future episodes and AtS there is still this sort of eh factor when watching it. Darla came off really campy, and I kept getting distracted by how very not a teenager she looked (she posed as one of Buffy's friends so it was a factor). Making Joyce out to be particularly stupid didn't sit well with me. Don't even get me started on the handgun thing. Overall it was ... eh. *shrug*
Wish I had more to add.
~ Q
Wish I had more to add.
~ Q
~ Q
In "Normal Again" - Didn't Buffy suffer from hallucinations and her memories - while she is trying to escape her current real world, it seems like she also is still carrying a lot of repressed anger from her resurrection - it is not only Spike that she is so angry with but interesting that he is not amongst the friends circle. We could read his absence as a symbol of his never being a part of her world and circle of friends or that the dreamworld she is trapped is more about learning to live through anger and learning how to forgive and move forward with her life. I must be missing something about the episode, because this was always one of my favorites but then I saw it primarily connected to all the emotional trauma of season six and not with the early LA storyline.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Jan 31 2008 04:04 pm #39Scarlet Ibis
it is not only Spike that she is so angry with but interesting that he is not amongst the friends circle.
That's why he gets the extra crappy treatment. But I kind of disagree--at that point, he still had Dawn and Willow (and yeah, we don't see much about him and Dawn after "Bargaining 1&2," but it's implied in "Seeing Red" that they still saw each other often when she visits his crypt to reprimand him about hurting Buffy's precious feelings. Pfft.). Willow was always kind/amicable to Spike, and there's no indication that she doesn't trust or doesn't like him in "Normal Again." In fact, I'd say even Xander's interaction with Spike was almost more kind. Or at the very least, justifiable since he'd turned into an asshole in regards to Spike since her ressurection, and was therefore, not out of character entriely (cause IMHO, it was OOC for Xander to be a dick to Spike in the first place at the beginning of that season).
And am I the only one who thought it was kind of cool that Darla brought guns? Yeah, it's totally anti-honor in regards to two beings with superpowers fighting...but still. It's kind of how I felt about Spike using a lighter to set that vamp on fire as opposed to beating him down. Still gets the job done. Well, clearly not in Darla's case, but it's clear she did it to make it easier.
That's why he gets the extra crappy treatment. But I kind of disagree--at that point, he still had Dawn and Willow (and yeah, we don't see much about him and Dawn after "Bargaining 1&2," but it's implied in "Seeing Red" that they still saw each other often when she visits his crypt to reprimand him about hurting Buffy's precious feelings. Pfft.). Willow was always kind/amicable to Spike, and there's no indication that she doesn't trust or doesn't like him in "Normal Again." In fact, I'd say even Xander's interaction with Spike was almost more kind. Or at the very least, justifiable since he'd turned into an asshole in regards to Spike since her ressurection, and was therefore, not out of character entriely (cause IMHO, it was OOC for Xander to be a dick to Spike in the first place at the beginning of that season).
And am I the only one who thought it was kind of cool that Darla brought guns? Yeah, it's totally anti-honor in regards to two beings with superpowers fighting...but still. It's kind of how I felt about Spike using a lighter to set that vamp on fire as opposed to beating him down. Still gets the job done. Well, clearly not in Darla's case, but it's clear she did it to make it easier.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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Feb 01 2008 09:47 pm #40Spikez_tart
I liked the guns. I loved the part where she's sliding backwards on the pool table where firing both of them. It's hilarious. I always thought it was lame on JW's part not to deal with guns. Bad guys could be gunning down Slayers as fast as they found them. Eventually, even the Council might have to give up making Slayers if that happened. I think the show should have dealt with the gun issue.
I don't think The Pack was about the bully issue so much - that doesn't really need a show - bullies bad is a given. I think it's an exploration of young men coming to grip with their hormones with a snooty side opinion that in fact they never do. Interesting that when males become vampires (Jesse, Spike) or get possessed by a hyena spirit (Xander) they stop being nerds and become sexually attractive. Angel without a soul is much sexier than Angel with one, IMHO. Bad boys - got to love em.
I don't think The Pack was about the bully issue so much - that doesn't really need a show - bullies bad is a given. I think it's an exploration of young men coming to grip with their hormones with a snooty side opinion that in fact they never do. Interesting that when males become vampires (Jesse, Spike) or get possessed by a hyena spirit (Xander) they stop being nerds and become sexually attractive. Angel without a soul is much sexier than Angel with one, IMHO. Bad boys - got to love em.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
I think the interesting thing about "The Pack" is that it's the first time we see one of our own as the bad guy. For whatever reason - being possessed, losing your soul, being consumed by magic, being a demon, being manipulated by the First - almost everyone on Buffy is the bad guy at some point. Joss has said, "It took us MONTHS to figure out that the episode wouldn't work unless one of ours was infected as well - one of the most valuable lessons for the rest of the show."
And the gun thing in "Angel" never bothered me, either. It bothers me that no other vampire besides Darla and Spike ever thought to use a gun to take out the Slayer. I can understand a few of them having too much pride and wanting to do it with fists and fangs, but most of them don't seem to care about that.
And the gun thing in "Angel" never bothered me, either. It bothers me that no other vampire besides Darla and Spike ever thought to use a gun to take out the Slayer. I can understand a few of them having too much pride and wanting to do it with fists and fangs, but most of them don't seem to care about that.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
In "Bad Girls" one of Balthazar's minions goes after the Mayor, only to be knocked out by the vampire Trick. He says: "Why do they always gotta be using swords? It's called an Uzi, ya chump! Could have saved your a** right about now." Balthazar then mentions that his minion had had honor, courage, fought as befits a true warrior, man-to-man. A few times we hear about the odd code some demons go by. I know it's not a full, practical explanation, but I think a lot of it is the idea of the Slayer and demon's world has those unwritten rules or assumptions made and not using human weapons is part of it
But they use swords, knives, axes, etc. Those aren't human weapons?
I think the distinction is modern weapons, not human ones, and I can understand that for old vampires. But for those who adapt to the times, or those who are turned within the last century, it really shouldn't be an issue, unless they're part of an older order that has traditions (like the followers of the Master, or I guess Balthazar), but we really don't see that many demons who are part of those kinds of orders.
I think the distinction is modern weapons, not human ones, and I can understand that for old vampires. But for those who adapt to the times, or those who are turned within the last century, it really shouldn't be an issue, unless they're part of an older order that has traditions (like the followers of the Master, or I guess Balthazar), but we really don't see that many demons who are part of those kinds of orders.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 02 2008 06:45 am #44Scarlet Ibis
I think the guns are great, and was also surprised more demons, or humans for that matter, didn't use them. A gun certainly would've helped the mortals, like Xander and Giles on patrol more than a stake. May not kill a vamp, but will certainly slow them down. Wes looks so cool with his shot gun or his pistols on slow motion... Um, yeah.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
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while the use of guns is logical their use would have taken away some of the Sunnydale is a fantasy world quality -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm going to go against the flow and just say I really didn't like Darla's use of guns. We really didn't get to see if she was as trenched in the past as much as Angel, or even technophobic so I'm not sure if using them was out of character or not - but it did come off as kind of a "huh, what?" moment for me.
As for guns in the series, BtVS not AtS, they tend to have serious repercussions for the gang and the overall theme seemed to be they were tools for the bad buys. The Initiative used them and Buffy's became defective and almost got her killed. She and Cordelia were hunted by those assassin twins in season three. Adam had a type of machine gun for an arm. Darla. There's the obvious Warren connection. In fact, the only positive portrayal of a gun as a weapon that I can think of off the top of my head is Xander's in "Halloween" and even then there was the whole toy association that can be looked at as symbolic or not.
As for modern, well the rocket launcher was definitely modern in s2. As was the wiring the high school to blow the Mayor up in s3. Xander used a wrecking ball in s5 against Glory. S4 had lots of modern weapons but they were all Initiative, so that probably doesn't count. I've always thought that Buffy tended to use whatever got the job done, and that guns were avoided as a matter of preference. When a slayer's innate skills with weapons is mentioned guns aren't excluded. I think it was mostly a choice from the writers to keep the fighting mostly hand to hand, which frankly is more fun to watch and am I wrong in guessing it would cost less and be less dangerous to the actors/stunt people?
As for guns in the series, BtVS not AtS, they tend to have serious repercussions for the gang and the overall theme seemed to be they were tools for the bad buys. The Initiative used them and Buffy's became defective and almost got her killed. She and Cordelia were hunted by those assassin twins in season three. Adam had a type of machine gun for an arm. Darla. There's the obvious Warren connection. In fact, the only positive portrayal of a gun as a weapon that I can think of off the top of my head is Xander's in "Halloween" and even then there was the whole toy association that can be looked at as symbolic or not.
As for modern, well the rocket launcher was definitely modern in s2. As was the wiring the high school to blow the Mayor up in s3. Xander used a wrecking ball in s5 against Glory. S4 had lots of modern weapons but they were all Initiative, so that probably doesn't count. I've always thought that Buffy tended to use whatever got the job done, and that guns were avoided as a matter of preference. When a slayer's innate skills with weapons is mentioned guns aren't excluded. I think it was mostly a choice from the writers to keep the fighting mostly hand to hand, which frankly is more fun to watch and am I wrong in guessing it would cost less and be less dangerous to the actors/stunt people?
~ Q
Feb 03 2008 01:35 am #47Spikez_tart
Guns and modern weapons - Modern technhology is thumped by magic in Season 4 when Buffy essentially destroys the Initiative. I agree the fighting is much more fun to watch, but really shouldn't Buffy be using that cross bow more? She's very excited to get it in Angel, which Giles won't give her until she masters the old fashioned quarterstaff. And, shouldn't Xander and Willow be armed with bottles of holy water and crossbows when they go with Buffy. They could both learn to shoot and throw bottles. Not to mention, Buffy frequently goes strolling through the cemetery with nothing in her hands.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 03 2008 01:47 am #48Scarlet Ibis
The fights are fun to watch--but it's extremely more pleasant to see someone bust out with guns (not Initiative type guns, cause those tasers were lame) out of nowhere. Because it is rarely seen in the Jossverse, that's what makes it so great when they are seen. And it's not about technology, but more about who's using them. And yeah--why don't we see supersoakers filled with holy water (I bring this up cause they're all over the video game "Chaos Bleeds" )? Nothing technical about that... And the fact that they used it sometimes as a quick fix and not others always kind of bothered me. Huge rocket launcher for the Judge, and the bomb for the mayor....I wonder what one of those would've done to Glory as opposed to hand to hand combat. I think that would've been more fun to see.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
And as most guys would say, a chick with a gun is hot. LOL Trinity from "The Matrix" movies, anyone? Or, I would have loved the fight choreography for Buffy to be like Milla Jovovich's in the Resident Evil movies - bad ass! (My boyfriend, who was training in No-Holds-Barred fighting before knee and shoulder injuries, was never impressed by the Buffy choreography. LOL Every time he sees a scene, he says "She's too slow! And can't they use something besides the flashy stuff?" I tease him about being a martial arts snob, obviously. Don't get him started on the uselessness of Tae Kwon Do!)
Yeah, the TV thing of never using the same idea twice really doesn't make sense in RL, as you tend to go with what's proven works. The joining spell could have been strong enough to send Glory where she came from. Or how about making the Ubervamps go boom? *sigh*
Yeah, the TV thing of never using the same idea twice really doesn't make sense in RL, as you tend to go with what's proven works. The joining spell could have been strong enough to send Glory where she came from. Or how about making the Ubervamps go boom? *sigh*
What If I'm Not the Slayer? now updated with chapters 22 and 23.
I liked the little use of guns in the series - other than The Intiative which involved the government and military force, the use of high tech weapons and powerful guns would be making the Buffy World seem like the ordinary and contemporary films that we could see at any theatre -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Any last thoughts on "Angel" and "The Pack" before we go onto the next episode for discusson?
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Think that the next episodes were going to be "Prophecy Girl" and there was the suggestion to do "Nightmares" and dreamscape episode
What does everyone want for the next episode - still "Prophecy Girl" or would we like to go with "Nightmares" first? Post the link for the Buffy transcripts for us. If anyone would Don't forget that screencaps are welcome for part of the discussions as well -
Transcripts Link:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm
What does everyone want for the next episode - still "Prophecy Girl" or would we like to go with "Nightmares" first? Post the link for the Buffy transcripts for us. If anyone would Don't forget that screencaps are welcome for part of the discussions as well -
Transcripts Link:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
I'm thinking we start with Nightmares, I'd like to re-watch the episodes in order.
Which will be the next episode?
Prophecy Girl
Nightmares
We could go right ahead with Prophecy Girl and then do a general dreamscape discussion with season 1 and season 2. As the dreamscape and psyche episodes are usually Whedon scripts it would be important and interesting to discuss these together.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
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