BSV Forum - General - Episode Discussions

"Surprise" and "Innocence"

Feb 22 2008 01:43 am   #1Scarlet Ibis
End of the week, mostly, so here's the new thread
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 28 2008 09:47 pm   #2Guest
Nobody seems to have any thoughts on these episodes.
Feb 28 2008 11:50 pm   #3nmcil

Surprised  with lack of discussion - shall we leave it up a bit longer - maybe for another  week - think we got taken over by the other topics.  I plan to watch, but tonight is all about LOST -

” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 29 2008 12:43 am   #4SpikeHot
Surprise

Anyone has thoughts on Buffy's dream in the episode?

I loved the reminder of Buffy's advice to Willow in Welcome to the Hellmouth about seizing the moment. Now Willow tells Buffy that she needs to seize the moment and sleep with Angel.

Speaking of Willow, how cute is she with Oz? Too cute isn't enough to describe the cuteness.

Then we have Xander and Cordelia, their conversation in front of Cordelia's locker reminded me of Buffy and Spike's relationship. Xander wants to date Cordelia in public, but Cordelia is ashamed to be seen with him and wants the relationship to be a secret.

I've noticed how fanfiction writers tend to make Tara stutter when she talks, they should also do the same with Giles. How much that man stutters.

Spike's way of treating Dru just shows demons ability to care, it helps that Spike and Dru reek of humanity.

Buffy is a bad driver, I love that they touch on that in high school years, notice how Buffy never driven a car in the later years, she always rides with Xander or Giles.

Buffy and Angel's first time. Angel bites Buffy during sex, is that a vampire kink? Moreover, did Spike ever bite Buffy while having sex?
Feb 29 2008 02:52 am   #5nmcil
Then we have Xander and Cordelia, their conversation in front of Cordelia's locker reminded me of Buffy and Spike's relationship. Xander wants to date Cordelia in public, but Cordelia is ashamed to be seen with him and wants the relationship to be a secret.

Had the same thoughts when I watched recently - Cordelia can be so brutal with her powerful  with use of words -  I think that often, Cordelia and Xander foreshadow and visualize many of the undercurrents of the primary arc of the season and the episode.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 29 2008 03:23 am   #6Spikez_tart
Seizing the day - yes that works out well every time it's tried. 

I love Evil Angelus - he's just so much more fun that Angel.  I know a lot of people think that Angel stopped loving Buffy when he didn't have a soul, but I think he does still love her which really pisses him off.

The cup that breaks - Buffy is holding a similar green cup (normal size) when she and Angel are talking in her kitchen in some previous episode.  Okay having a senior moment and I can't remember which one it is.

How is it that Spike is all gung ho to destroy the world with the Judge, but doesn't want to when Angelus tries to start up Acathla?  Is it just because he's crazed with jealousy?  Maybe the writers were having a senior moment.

Loved the vampire party, loved Buffy's stupid giraffe pants, loved cranky, jealous Spike, Buffy's rocket launcher.

Xander and Cordelia - never thought about it, but Buffy is hardly the only one who hides relationships - Willow and Tara - Buffy and Angel - Buffy and Spike - Oz and Veruca - Are public relationships doomed to failure?  Maybe the secret is part of the energy and once its dispersed, destruction ensues as the core group cuts off the outsider? 

We see Buffy in these episodes very open and loving to Angel in a way that she never will be to anyone again.  She tells Angel she loves him.  In a crossover show, she tells Angel in Sanctuary "I have someone in my life now.  That I love."  We presume she's talking about Riley, but Spike is certainly in her life. 

Does Buffy ever tell Riley that she loves him? 

If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Feb 29 2008 04:16 am   #7Eowyn315
I've noticed how fanfiction writers tend to make Tara stutter when she talks, they should also do the same with Giles. How much that man stutters.
I've noticed that, too... not so much in watching the episodes, but in reading transcripts. It doesn't really register until you look at what he says, written word for word, how many tries it takes to get a sentence out.

Angel bites Buffy during sex, is that a vampire kink?
He does? I don't remember seeing that. I think if he had, it would've been a bigger deal. And yes, I think biting during sex is probably a vampire kink, although I don't think we ever see it happen on the show. But the bites we see are often sexual in nature - Darla/Liam, Drusilla/William, Angel/Buffy, Dracula/Buffy, even Riley and the vamp whores (they're called "whores" for a reason).

Moreover, did Spike ever bite Buffy while having sex?
Not that we saw. It's debatable whether he did off-screen or not.

How is it that Spike is all gung ho to destroy the world with the Judge, but doesn't want to when Angelus tries to start up Acathla? Is it just because he's crazed with jealousy?
I think it's mostly because the Judge is Drusilla's idea, and Acathla is Angelus'. Spike is willing to do pretty much anything to please Dru. Also, the Judge doesn't actually destroy the world - just kills anything with humanity. The demons would be perfectly safe, although vampires would probably go hungry... which kinda makes it a crappy plan, but hey, Spike's a fool for love, right? Acathla, on the other hand, was all about the world-suckage, and since it was the brain-child of Angelus, Spike was pretty much predisposed to hate the plan, even though Dru went along with it.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Feb 29 2008 04:44 am   #8TammyDevil666
Okay, the quote thing doesn't seem to be working for me, but no, Buffy never told Riley that she loved him.  Even he knows that she doesn't, I think she just told Angel that to piss him off and possibly make him jealous.  Although, I'm sure we would love to think she was referring to Spike, I don't think that was the case.
When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you, and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.
Feb 29 2008 05:45 am   #9nmcil
If I remember right, Spike actually tells Dru that he would rather leave Sunnydale and maybe go to Vienna - The Judge is primarily Dru's idea, but Spike goes along to please.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 29 2008 06:51 am   #10Scarlet Ibis
Are public relationships doomed to failure?

Well, Spike and Buffy's most certainly wasn't public...I'm sure that if it was, it would have faired out much better.  I think the point of the original comment of the Xander/Cordelia and Spike/Buffy relationship comparison is that Cordelia, before really going public with her relationship with Xander, (verbally) treats him like crap, and yeah, it hurts his feelings.  On the opposite side of the spectrum, the sting and the hurt is all that much worse, especially since it's physical.

As for Acathla vs. The Judge, well, the Judge wasn't going to suck the world into hell--different kind of apocalypse.   It's like "Hell on Earth" vs. "Being in Hell." Besides, he seemed inclined to listen to Spike and Dru, and could only burn so many folks to a cinder.  Billions of people in the world, and plenty left to eat. But if the whole world's in hell, well then, so are they, and their entire food supply.  Not really a good idea.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 29 2008 06:52 am   #11Scarlet Ibis
Also, I'm passing the torch to some noble BSV member to continue posting the threads for show analysis.  The rest of the season two eps to be discussed is mentioned in the "School Hard" thread, and there has been no real talk for season three so far.  But yeah, I won't be here on a regular basis, so...

continue on
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 29 2008 10:31 am   #12Guest
How come you won't be on on a regular basis Scarlet?
Feb 29 2008 12:09 pm   #13Scarlet Ibis
I'm going to LA for this adaptation program, and for the next five weeks, I anticipate being MIA a great deal.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 29 2008 06:33 pm   #14nmcil
I'm going to LA for this adaptation program, and for the next five weeks, I anticipate being MIA a great deal.

Hope you have a great time and all goes well.

I will be happy to take over the weekly discussions - let me know if anyone else has volunteered, if not I can do the topic listing -
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Feb 29 2008 10:56 pm   #15Scarlet Ibis
Thanks for the well wishes.

I gladly and proudly pass the torch (it's a torch I swear, and not a buck) to you.  Have at it
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Feb 29 2008 11:03 pm   #16Spikez_tart
Scarlet - five weeks in California in the middle of a nasty Chicago winter.  That's very brave of you.  Have a good time while the rest of us are wading through slush.

Although, I'm sure we would love to think she was referring to Spike, I don't think that was the case.  I don't think Buffy consciously means anything, but maybe it's one of those little twisty double meanings that you look back on later and say huh.  Sort of like when Drusilla tells Angel that her prince has gone over to her, and on its face it seems like she is talking about Angel, but she could be talking about Spike. 


If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 01 2008 04:57 am   #17Scarlet Ibis
Although, I'm sure we would love to think she was referring to Spike, I don't think that was the case.

This got me thinking about references.  In "The Initiative," both Riley and Spike say "I'm going to go see a girl."  They both go to see Willow in the dorm, with intentions to see Buffy.  Two guys, as opposite as can be, and I find it funny that Spike is the one that tries to comfort Willow in her depression.  Too much?  Sorry, just watched the eppy

And Spikez_Tart, well, I didn't find the winter too bad, lol.  But thanks--I'll try to have as much fun as humanly possible.
"Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly."
https://www.facebook.com/FangirlNovel
Mar 02 2008 01:44 am   #18Spikez_tart
Riley also admits that he's going to rip Buffy's heart out and that's his plan. 

While he's comforting her, Spike also considers making a vampire out of Willow - I think she's the only one in the series that he ever considers for that plan, excepting the ones he turned in S7 while under the control of the first.  Dru certainly turned Sheila in School Hard and I believe she turned Ford in Lie to Me.  "Spike, I want a treat."  I really don't get Willow as sexually attractive, especially when she was still school girlish.  She may be the only female in the world that JM can't make out to be the lust of his life.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 02 2008 01:50 am   #19Guest
When does Riley admit that he's going to rip Buffy's heart out? I know he's a bit harsh and shown pretty well in the last show Restless and calls her a killer but I don't think he threatens her.
Mar 02 2008 02:10 am   #20Eowyn315
It's a joke, Guest. Willow is being depresso girl, and says to Riley, "Ok, say that I help, and you start a conversation. It goes great. You like Buffy, she likes you. You spend time together, feelings grow deeper, and one day, without even realizing it, you find you're in love. Time stops, and it feels like the whole world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a broken, hollow mockery of the human condition." And Riley responds with a quippy, "Yup, that's the plan."
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 02 2008 02:13 am   #21Spikez_tart
Here's the quote from the Initiative.  Willow's talking to Riley in her dorm room.

Willow : Ok, say that I help, and you start a conversation. It goes great.

You like Buffy, she likes you. You spend time together, feelings grow deeper, and one day, without even realizing it, you find you're in love. Time stops, And it feels like the whole world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition.

Riley : (Looking a bit put out, but is glib.) Yep, that's the plan.

Also, there's another scene, which I cannot find, where Buffy and Willow are strolling through the cemetery and Buffy expresses reservations about Riley (in spite of his hunkiness) and says she's all over the bad boy thing, but maybe its the angst that makes the relationship.  Willow tells her to get out while she still can.  It's spooky. 

After noticing that, I thought Willow was picking up on some psychic thing, but everything she tells Buffy about Parker is total BS until after he's dumped Buffy.  I guess her ability to predict the upcoming bad relationship is based on the current status of her own heartbreak.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 02 2008 02:14 am   #22Spikez_tart
It's a joke, but with the double foreshadowy thing going on.
If we want her to be exactly she'll never be exactly I know the only really real Buffy is really Buffy and she's gone' who?
Mar 02 2008 06:04 am   #23nmcil
The worst advice on the Romance-Love Front is Willow giving back to Buffy the "Carpe Diem" lines - both instances of that line lead to vampires going after the girls.
” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 02 2008 09:20 pm   #24Eowyn315
Also, there's another scene, which I cannot find, where Buffy and Willow are strolling through the cemetery and Buffy expresses reservations about Riley (in spite of his hunkiness) and says she's all over the bad boy thing, but maybe its the angst that makes the relationship. Willow tells her to get out while she still can.
That's from "Something Blue" - Buffy thinks there's something missing because, as Willow puts it, "He's not making you miserable?" She jokes, "Get out. Get out while there's still time," and then Buffy admits part of her thinks that "real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting."

What I find telling about that bit is that Buffy has a very dramatized view of relationships - because her only experience is Angel, she has this idea that all love is like it is in the movies - epic, painful, and melodramatic. Part of it is because of her Slayer lifestyle, of course, but I think if she'd had a different first experience (one that perhaps didn't involve her killing her boyfriend or him turning evil), she would have a more normal view of love. Interestingly, she does a complete 180 on this opinion by season six, when she tells Spike that that kind of passionate, dangerous love doesn't last.
Writing should feel easy, like a monkey driving a speed boat.
Mar 03 2008 02:01 am   #25nmcil

"epic, painful, and melodramatic"

And this is exactly what Angel-Angelus brought into not only her life, but all of the Scoobies -  And she kept that same formula for all her other relationships, irrespective of Angel being gone to LA - he shadowed her all through the season.  I wish the writers had let Buffy get over Angel or at least clear up her misconceptions, IMO, that Angel and Angelus are so completely separate men.  I really wish that entire season 7 "kissing scene" and "I still think about a possible life with you" (paraphrase) had never been shown.  Particularly as this was the ending of the series and Buffy was suppose to have been made such much stronger through all her Slayer duties, to me, it just felt like they were throwing backward instead of letting her move on.  As bad as the Buffy-Spike brutality and horrorthon, Angel always just seemed to just make her weak and vulnerable.  As a woman, I would have loved to see a clean break from the Buffy-Angel relationship.

I hope some of you will watch Passions and join in the discussion -


” Recent evolutionary models have demonstrated what politicians have long known: the best way to get people to collaborate and to think like a group is to identify an enemy and charge that “they” threaten “us.”

Michael Tomasello is co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.
Mar 03 2008 04:31 am   #26Guest
I remember the discussion in Season One about how Angel at first wasn't going to develop into such a huge story so he was just some mysterious, cryptic guy. The writers sometimes don't make things go so smoothly, like comparing Darla in BtVS season one and when she comes back on AtS. I think even the writers couldn't state things definitely when they kept changing and they didn't want to upset Bangel fans while writing the story when Spike was still growing and they were trying to find a place for him.

Notice how after he loses his soul Angelus is explaining and says he knows who he is, he is Angel... at last! He talks about having the soul shoved into him and having to love. In AtS Angelus gets loose and talks about being trapped by Angel and Angel having that lame 'raiders of the lost ark' dream and that idiot Angel thinking this or that and in Orpheus stuck in his mind with Faith... The whole time they writers had drawn a clear line and both Angel and Angelus are talking about everything like they're totally separate people and that Angel is a different person in possession of Angelus' body. Hardly related.